What's your take on Angels? Have they got "Freewill"?

[eaglesway]

God is the actor. Satan is the reacter. When Moses was coming the enemy tried to anticipate and destroy the plan of G0d but he failed because God is in control. When Jesus was born Satan tried to anticipate and murder the coming Messiah and Rachel wept for her children but he failed because God was in control, not the adversary- or man. When Jesus was slain the principalities and powers rejoiced at first, because they did not understand the hidden wisdom of God. When God decided to restore Israel to the land the enemy attempted to destroy the plan of God but he failed again, as usual, because God has an answer. In this generation, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness have gathered around the Lord and His anointed, but the God of glory thunders. He holds them in derision. He has an answer. It is His voice that will be heard. It is His righteousness that will be exalted. Get on the roof, rejoice, for your redemption draws near. As it was i the days of Noah. As it was in Sodom. Deliverance is at hand. Victory is already settled in the heavens. It is Finished.

[VineBranch]

MissZ, I get that there are angels; I also get there is a heavenly host (in aramaic = army).  Are the two the same thing?  Is everything in heavan either God or angel?  If so, I can see the validity of your question.  If there is more to a heavenly host, then is your question something else?

[ded2daworld]

Just my opinion, but since the Bible does not mention any beings other than angels in heaven and since only angels were mentioned in the book of Genesis, I believe at this time, there is just the Father, Son and angels. :dontknow:

I re-read my post and thought, "What was I thinking??" Pretty bad when someone doesn't make sense to themselves :laughing7: :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

What about the saints who were resurrected when Jesus gave up the ghost?(Mt 27:50-53)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
(Heb 12:22-25)

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
(Eph 4:8)

It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.

[Lazarus Short]

It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.

I recall that was taught in the SDA church - brought to Heaven and presented to the Father as firstfruits.  The SDA church is heavy into types, shadows, and fulfillments.

[VineBranch]

What about the saints who were resurrected when Jesus gave up the ghost?(Mt 27:50-53)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
(Heb 12:22-25)

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
(Eph 4:8)

It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.

Eagle, I don't see anywhere here that He leads them to Heaven.

Could you tell me which version you used for the quote from Hebrews.  Every version I checked has a variation of 'he led captivity captive...'  I didn't find a version which said 'captive a host of captives'.

Thanks

[eaglesway]

The quote is from the New American Standard. But I agree there is nothing conclusive about that verse. I am not trying to build a case for anything. I am just saying there is some evidence for an alternate conclusion.

Where is Enoch.

Where is Elijah.

Where is Moses.

What about the resurrected saints from Matthew. Where are they?

[VineBranch]

The quote is from the New American Standard. But I agree there is nothing conclusive about that verse. I am not trying to build a case for anything. I am just saying there is some evidence for an alternate conclusion.

Where is Enoch.

Where is Elijah.

Where is Moses.

What about the resurrected saints from Matthew. Where are they?

Oh, I concur.  I was just checking the words.  Got the verse, thanks.

[ded2daworld]

I think ecclesiastes had the answer when it basically said, the body goes into the ground at death and the spirit returns from whence it came(back to God) A small thing for God to take the bodies of Enoch Moses, Elijah, etc and bury their bodies deep in the earth so as not to be dug up and venerated like some catholics do of some saints bones. I don't know what to think about the verses where it seems the bodies went to heaven. I'm not omitting the possibility of another dimension entirely unseen by us (current)mortals. :Peace2:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:    I believe Paul touched on that when he spoke of 'not all of us shall die'

  but be 'changed' in the twinkling of an eye.  Also,Jesus testimony about..if you believe

  you will never die, or if you do die,ye shall live..I believe He was referring to the same thing.

    ...when the disciples were speaking among themselves in regard to just 'who" would not die..

.........Jesus counseled them...that of something was His will..what was that to them....they

were to follow Him.

[eaglesway]

I think ecclesiastes had the answer when it basically said, the body goes into the ground at death and the spirit returns from whence it came(back to God) A small thing for God to take the bodies of Enoch Moses, Elijah, etc and bury their bodies deep in the earth so as not to be dug up and venerated like some catholics do of some saints bones. I don't know what to think about the verses where it seems the bodies went to heaven. I'm not omitting the possibility of another dimension entirely unseen by us (current)mortals. :Peace2:

I am not either. I am simply saying that there is evidence for an alternate view. Ecclesiastes gives a general truth as do many other verses about death. Yet we see, as in so many cases, that the history- HIS STORY- presents exceptions we cannot explain so easily in order to prevent our wrapping it all up in a nice little bow and handing it out like a textbook.

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel(messenger) which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
(Rev 22:8-9)

This messenger was not an angel. The heavens were opened and John saw "visions of God". John mistook the "messenger" as, perhaps, the Lord(perhaps because of the glory attending all beings in the higher heavens)- or some angel and fell on His face to worship.

The messenger refused him and clearly staed that he was a fellowservant of "his brethren the prophets". Is this an angel(imo definitely not). Is is a man of God, perhaps...... certainly any reasonable mind could read it that way. :o)

[ded2daworld]

OR that even though this angel (messenger) was NOT a man, he was indeed, a fellowservant like the brethren the prophets. Since they also were messengers of God. and revelation has a lot of "LIKE" in it since the heavenly language is not yet available to describe the humanly indescribable. :dontknow:

[VineBranch]

Malak (OT) can also mean someone despatched as a deputy.  Could this be the sense in which he was a fellow servant.  In the NT angelos can mean someone who leads someone else.  So, is it possible that at some level, angel is a function of purpose? 

I also find this wording exquisite:  "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." (Rev 22:9) KJV.  What I see is him telling John, 'don't worship me ... worship god'.  What I don't see is a denial on the part of the speaker, that he is an angel.   :2c:

[eaglesway]

OR that even though this angel (messenger) was NOT a man, he was indeed, a fellowservant like the brethren the prophets. Since they also were messengers of God. and revelation has a lot of "LIKE" in it since the heavenly language is not yet available to describe the humanly indescribable. :dontknow:

Maybe, but I posted the verse(Rev 22:8,9) and it says I am thy fellow servant and OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS.

As I read it "like" doesnt enter into it.

Sometimes our brain refuses to read what's in directly front of our face in order to preserve our theology  :dunno2:  (No offense intended :o)

[sheila]

Jesus speaks of the children of the resurrection being like the angels....the children of God.

[rosered]

  with the tongues of men and angels !   a message of the gospel to be  preached
  Paul was a messenger     and he said woe is me if I preach not the gospel , saying he was taken  captive of Christ

1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!   :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

Wasn't Paul "bought with a price?" In my mind (which is rarely correct) that is a big difference than being taken captive. I guess it doesn't matter if we're only talking about the  free will man doesn't have. :laughing7:

[sheila]

Luke 4;18  this is how He did it[take captivity captive]     preach good news to poor..

  proclaim freedom for prisoners..recovery of sight for blind..release oppressed..

  proclaim year of Lord's Favour.    our spiritual captivity taken cpative[[  as lawbreakers

condemned under law.

[rosered]

Wasn't Paul "bought with a price?" In my mind (which is rarely correct) that is a big difference than being taken captive. I guess it doesn't matter if we're only talking about the  free will man doesn't have. :laughing7:

Hi Ded  Paul   He     proclaimed     that indeed  he was a bondservant/prisoner  of Jesus Christ

as well as bought with a price ...  being made  captive /prisoner      many times he said this
Strong's G1198 - desmios δέσμιος
Transliteration
desmios
Pronunciation

de's-mē-os (Key)


Part of Speech
adjective

Root Word (Etymology)

From δεσμός (G1199)

TDNT Reference
2:43,145
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) bound, in bonds, a captive, a prisoner




Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Phm 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Phm 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.


  I can only see  we are a prisoner to sin
or Jesus  ,being bought back by  Jesus [price   His blood= Life ]   one or the other     making us dead   to the world in Christ
or dead to God  because sins wages  is death , But Jesus  redeems us   to Himself   becoming our Lord and master  :Peace2:

Strong's G3084 - lytroō λυτρόω
Transliteration
lytroō
Pronunciation

lü-tro'-ō (Key)


Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

From λύτρον (G3083)

TDNT Reference
4:349,543
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to release on receipt of ransom

2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

a) to liberate

b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

c) to redeem

d) to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external




   so your  right  Ded  and yet   the other is also right     captive and prisoner are  synonymous     :Peace2:

[ded2daworld]

I hadn't seen that before. Thank you :Peace2:

[jbertonbounds]

Here is a must-see scripture verse:
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

This seems to be saying that Satan was created evil, since he was a murderer from the beginning.  If he had been a good angel who later fell, then could this passage be true?  What's your take on this?

[jbertonbounds]

Another thought:
I have become aware that some people believe that Satan is not a person, but is rather self-will.  I haven't subscribed to that because I haven't found any scripture to back that up, but it is an interesting thought worthy of further study.  What do y'all think?

[eaglesway]

This question has staunch supporters on both sides on this forum :o) I believe Satan is a being, otherwise the story of the temptation of Christ is an allegory. I believe it is literal history. The Lamb had no "evil self"- He was the Lamb without spot, never conceiving or being penetrated by temptation or sin. IMO this alone destroys the idea that Satan is a manifestation of the carnal nature.

[ded2daworld]

Good thought JB.
If there is NO scripture to back up any idea or interpretation, chances are it's false.
Look at Jude . Archangel Michael is said to argue with Satan over the body of Moses... doesn't sound like
Satan is any mans' self will at all. :Peace2:

[reFORMer]

And a battle occurred in heaven. Michael and his messengers battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles, and its messengers. (Rv 12⁷, Concordant Literal)

Other than "heaven" being a very different place than cartoon Christianity portrays, there must be opposing wills for there to be a war.   God's nature being peace, "He is our peace," it is not likely this antagonism is God's work.  This leaves us with enough autonomy among the angels, enough freedom of will to produce different beliefs, even schools of thought and armies under differing banners.