Verses that stump us...

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi everyone,
Ever some across a verse that just leaves you scratching your head? If so, which one?

One I've often wondered about is at the end of the Bible:

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still... Rev. 22:11

Sounds like counter-productive preaching to me!...

Love to all,
Brian

[WhiteWings]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Gab]

It's not a verse, but the whole story in Exodus about the Pharaoh has always completely eluded my attempts to make sense of it.  God sends Moses to try to convince the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go.  But God hardens the Pharaoh's heart so he won't let them go.  Then God has Moses bring terrible plagues upon the Egyptian people, including the killing of every firstborn son, because Pharaoh did not listen to Moses because God had hardened his heart.  Furthermore, despite the fact that we are told that God is not a respecter of persons, God repeatedly makes a clear distinction between the Israelites and the Egyptians, and spares only the former from the later plagues, despite the fact that the Pharaoh had been the one who refused to let the Israelites go... due to the fact that God had hardened his heart in the first place...

My head hurts.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

WW:
Thank you for pointing that out! You made my day!! :)

Gab:
I know what you mean. The most "plausible" interpretation I've found so far is that "Israel" is symbolic for the spirit in man, and "Egypt" is symbolic for the flesh. So God made the spirit subject to the flesh (and interesting to note here, that God did NOT judge Israel for being subject to and serving Egypt).

Just a thought,
Brian

[WhiteWings]

WW:
Thank you for pointing that out! You made my day!! :)

For me it's like proving UR in half a verse.
Unless 'you' assume the ungodly are justified for hell. But that would even clash with mainstream Christianity.
It's not really that the verse stumped me as in "I don't understand" but more like "that's pushing love/UR to the extreme"

[Gab]

Gab:
I know what you mean. The most "plausible" interpretation I've found so far is that "Israel" is symbolic for the spirit in man, and "Egypt" is symbolic for the flesh. So God made the spirit subject to the flesh (and interesting to note here, that God did NOT judge Israel for being subject to and serving Egypt).

I can definitely understand it if the story is intended to be understood as a parable, and that God did not literally punish an entire nation of people just because of the actions of their king (actions which God ensured, no less); it's the literal interpretation of the story as events that actually took place that just mystifies me to no end.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

WW:
I think that mainstream Christianity accepts that verse in this way:
"yes, God justifies the ungodly AS LONG AS they ask Him to BEFORE they die!"

Gab:
I agree that if it's historically verifiable it seems strange. Of course, God can do whatever He wants with all His creatures..
Do we (in general) have any proof that this actually happened in history? I haven't read any egyptian history books so I really don't even know for sure..

[WhiteWings]

WW:
I think that mainstream Christianity accepts that verse in this way:
"yes, God justifies the ungodly AS LONG AS they ask Him to BEFORE they die!"

Isn't the defenition of ungodly that they want no contact with God?
So the ungodly won't ask Him.
Plus it say "declares" without any condition. Nothing about when, how, how often.

[AJ]

Rev. 22:11
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."



whyiloveitaly
Let's look at the whole verse... and consider the parts that I've underlined.

I think the key... is understanding who each of the 'him's are referring to.
Two - are referring to 'the old carnal flesh man'...and the other two are referring to 'the new man of the heart.'   These continue to reside in us until our death.


Every person repeatedly deals with two conflicting 'View-Points' within themselves:
- and these divisions are at continual war - inside each of us,
- it entails ... two 'Selves'... two 'Natures' ... two 'Inner Essences'
- but, in the end – (everybody) all lives will be consummated with two significant 'conclusions' for each of these diverse inner Natures.

Reflect on the following:

The Lord Jesus Christ and Paul the apostle – explained about there being – 'two inner natures' in mankind.
- Jesus the Christ - affirms that a man's enemies are within (Matt 10:36) and He also states the Kingdom of God is within.
- Paul an apostle – declares that out of the same lump, God makes a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor.
- The Bible gives additional explanation of these two natures within - as our 'old flesh man' (Rom 6:6) and our 'spiritual man'.

Consider further,
that when Jesus said - unto  Peter, 'get thee behind me Satan.'.... he was talking directly to... 'Peter'.
- Jesus confirms that evil things / intentions come from within man (Mark 7:21-23) and makes man unclean....a vessel of dishonor.
- Later on...Jesus also said to Peter.... "Upon Peter... will I build my church" – making Peter a vessel of honor.
Did you see that?   
Out of the same lump...God uses / makes a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor.


One vessel, from within each of us...is a keeper (honor)(gold, silver, precious stones) (wheat)(good seed)   will remain
...while the other vessel (dishonor) will eventually be removed ...out from every person.  All that is wood, hay and stubble will perish by fire....the vessel of dishonor will perish...all the chaff will be separated from out of us and burnt up (Matt 3:12)...all the tares that have been planted within each of us will be plucked up and burned (Matt 13:27-29)(13:37-41)... all the works of the flesh will be judged and found wanting.

One nature / vessel will be taken away, along with all that we did according to the flesh and the other nature / vessel is left behind, along with all that was done according to the spirit. ( Matt 24:40-42)

The above scriptural analysis – is directly opposed to the traditional view of the so-called - 'Rapture' teaching.
Thus ..."I WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND."
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Two shall be together....
Matthew 24:40-42 
Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.
Mat 24:42 - Be watching, then, for you are not aware on what day your Lord is coming."

The above verses are sometimes used - as a supposed famous rapture proof verses.  Thus, if we perceive these verses to mean a literal, two completely different human beings or people,...then the meaning of – 'one taken and one left' - really means that 50% of all living humans will be so-called raptured.
Matt 24:40-42 - is not a word of warning, as commonly taught... but to bring encouragement and hope.

As I understand the above verses,...  there are
(a) two persona's, ...two natures or inner essences in every man / woman – and they
(b) each have vastly different viewpoints, and they
(c) each are inside the same human person and they
(d) each have different ends in store for them. 

These (two persona's are operating side by side,... (aka)... the flesh man and the spirit man) 
They are working together - inside of every human and at some point one nature is removed and 'taken' someplace... and the other one is 'left' behind...and so shall ever be with the Lord.
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Mark 7:21-23
"It is FROM WITHIN, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean."


He didn't say that these evil intentions are spurred on by the devil, in the sense of external provenance, and then implanted into our hearts. All of the intentions have their origin from within the hearts of man. These evil (opposing) intentions have their root within the selfishness of man.  The pure intentions have their root within the selflessness of man. In this light, the "battle" between good and evil can be seen as the inward struggle between selflessness and selfishness, respectively.

Isa 64:6
" But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousness [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

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It's as though we have two selves or two natures or two wills with two different points of view.
For further consideration on these two facets of man.... Let's look at the following.
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God's field, -  (all of humanity) – has both good seed (wheat) and bad seed (tares) planted within them. 
Matthew 13:27-29
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field?
from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

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There are two groups – two seeds.
At the very beginning, in Gen. 3, God indicated that the world would be divided into two groups, the woman's seed and the serpent's seed,... i.e. the church and the world - those who lived according to the Spirit, and those who lived according to the flesh. This division was seen very early in Adam's two sons, Cain and Abel. Cain followed the carnal and Abel was spiritual.
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Another distinction of two .....Good trees and evil trees....
Mathew 7:14-23
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The distinction of (two) similar - but very different persona's,... followed with two different endings.
-The good tree / good fruit / fulfills the will of the Father, this leads to life and enters into the kingdom of heaven.
-The corrupt tree / evil fruit / is hewn down and 'taken' - cast into the fire, he that works iniquity are inwardly ravening wolves and at some point must depart from Christ.
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Teaching on the tares and the wheat.
Matthew 13:37-41
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The Wheat and Tares are in all of us.
Every person has good seed and bad seed in them.
This parable speaks of two persona's in one person - not two different human people.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom.
The tares are the seed of the wicked one...and at the end of this age - are gathered, then 'taken' someplace and burnt.
In the field, the angels come to divide the wheat from the tares, which is to remove the bad seed fruit from the good seed fruit.  The Tares serve no further purpose and are therefore only fit for destruction. 
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Teaching on the Wheat and the Chaff.
Matthew 3:12
12 whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and gather His wheat into the storehouse; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The wheat sheaves are then taken together...into the mill for thrashing, the kernels are thrown up in the air and the wind (Pneuma) blows away the chaff. 
One is taken...the chaff – the other one... the kernel is left behind.
Did you see that?
What is 'taken' here? The chaff, not the kernel of wheat – so again - these verses teach the very opposite that the traditional churches teach.

Therefore, at the harvest, it is only the wheat that remains.
The wheat kernel alone has in it the power of life, yet nothing to boast thereof.
The chaff and stalks are blown away to be burned.
Thus, this entire allegory has nothing to do with the so-called rapture theory.  It is about us,... each and every one of us....and the separation that must transpire from within us.
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'OLD MAN' vs 'NEW MAN'
The END of our visible man  (old man) ---------and the incorruptible (hidden man) of the heart. 
1 Peter 3:4.
(KJV) Authorized Version
    But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
American Standard Version
    but [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible [apparel] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Young's Literal Translation
    but -- the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible thing of the meek and quiet spirit, which is, before God, of great price,

The hidden man of the heart is an incorruptible thing....which is of a great price to God.


TO BE CONTINUED....

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Praise God!!  I suppose the following verses are also part of this (including salvation of ALL):

1 Cor. 3:
  13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Right?

Sorry to interrupt..

[WhiteWings]

Very right imo wili.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I like it AJ......... :thumbsup:

[legoman]

Wow AJ, that was awesome.  And you just made Matt 24:40-422 make sense for me...

Thanks!  :thumbsup:

[fullarmor2]

    Today I believe the Spirit helped me to understand a certain passage of scripture in a way that I never have before.    Its the one where Jesus says just before his crucifixion,   "I could pray to my Father and there are more than twelve legions of divine beings (angels)  capable of delivering me".      Now,   we know it was not in the Lord's heart to not go to the cross.  So its interesting that he said something like that.   
  Here is what I saw today.   I was thinking about how that towards the end of this "World",   things will be getting bad in the natural. And when the World reaches its darkest hour of all time,    The Lord along  with a heavenly host will step in  and save the day!  Right after I thought this,  immediately,  that passage popped into my head!    And I saw a comparison.     Jesus ,  at his darkest hour in the natural,  declined to be delivered.   But the World,  bearing its own cross experience,  at its darkest hour  will be saved by  our Lord. 
     And isn't there a verse somewhere in which it says,  " except those days should be shortened,   there would be NO flesh which will  survive,  but for the elects sake,  those days shall be shortened".