God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[trettep]

The best work I  have see about Free Will is by Augustine of Hippo:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

You will see a lot of support for Universal Salvation in that writing.

[guest6024]

You were guided to camp, so all will be fine :-)

I'm going to shut my trap for a while and listen more.   :laugh:

[GodIsLove]

Marc,
I like to read NDEs. And I do believe your grandpa's story, it was really cool to read.

Like I said before I believe in free will constrained by many things, so it isn't totally free.

[guest6024]

Marc,
I like to read NDEs. And I do believe your grandpa's story, it was really cool to read.

Like I said before I believe in free will constrained by many things, so it isn't totally free.

Similar then I would say.
I believe in free will too, but If I had total free will...I wouldn't even choose to stay on this planet to be honest.  And I'd be able to fly by now lol.

[marie glen]

Hi! I was reading through some of this thread backwards, and came to the mention of the verse in psalms about the Babylonian babes bashed against a tree, and I read had the best response here on the tent forum.. that alttho God's Word (written) was "inspired by God" a writer could still write his own sentiments. And how the psalm writer was expressing that line as a war torn, human, sentiment.. And as for me, once I feel a certain 'click' in my heart and mind that something is truth, then for me the matter is understood.. or it just 'feels' like truth, and so i'm happy with that conviction, if based on God's Word that is.

As to the harshness, overall, of the Old Testament, I too had that struggle, but as time went on and I learned other things, this too clicked into lace for me.. that first, thelaw and it's stonings was written for Israel, so as to have a place for the savior of the world to be born into - as opposed to coming into the midst of tree worshippers or something..

But I also realized the harshness of the OT is based on truth. That, in its way, truth is 'harsh'. I've come to think of it as God is both life and perfection. Therefor anything imperfect, is the opposite of life. It simply cannot remain, but all untruth can only crash and burn - as the saying goes. So the stonings, not only kept Israel a bit 'on track' but it demonstrated the truth that ultimately truth is 'brutal' as untruth simply cannot "live".

Not sure I'm expressing it well. To me, God indeed "created evil" but somewhat indirectly by endowing thinking ability (to angel and man) as ultimately created with the ability to think and reason, is the ability to make choices - albeit, as pointed out in this thread, very limited (thank goodness! Or what havoc could be wrought? Obviously things are bad enough already, due to all imperfect choices made since creation, or since rationality was endowed.

A series of learning for me was concluded with a question to me.. why did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought not only occurred but had ripened into outright sedition and revolt? Didn't He know what would happen?

  :laughing7: Of course He did!  It seems to me like, get this issue of totaLLy learning good from evil (life from death) out of the way.. Or more exact, as a foundation truth all " in heaven and earth" must learn and have written (deeply etched?) upon eveRy heart and mind. The knowing that to wander away from God who is life, simply can never, ever work..All fully knowing it can only ever be self destruction.. if without His intervention.. It just can never work.. Seeing as He is (the only) life itself..

[guest6024]

Hi! I was reading through some of this thread backwards, and came to the mention of the verse in psalms about the Babylonian babes bashed against a tree, and I read had the best response here on the tent forum.. that alttho God's Word (written) was "inspired by God" a writer could still write his own sentiments. And how the psalm writer was expressing that line as a war torn, human, sentiment.. And as for me, once I feel a certain 'click' in my heart and mind that something is truth, then for me the matter is understood.. or it just 'feels' like truth, and so i'm happy with that conviction, if based on God's Word that is.

As to the harshness, overall, of the Old Testament, I too had that struggle, but as time went on and I learned other things, this too clicked into lace for me.. that first, thelaw and it's stonings was written for Israel, so as to have a place for the savior of the world to be born into - as opposed to coming into the midst of tree worshippers or something..

But I also realized the harshness of the OT is based on truth. That, in its way, truth is 'harsh'. I've come to think of it as God is both life and perfection. Therefor anything imperfect, is the opposite of life. It simply cannot remain, but all untruth can only crash and burn - as the saying goes. So the stonings, not only kept Israel a bit 'on track' but it demonstrated the truth that ultimately truth is 'brutal' as untruth simply cannot "live".

Not sure I'm expressing it well. To me, God indeed "created evil" but somewhat indirectly by endowing thinking ability (to angel and man) as ultimately created with the ability to think and reason, is the ability to make choices - albeit, as pointed out in this thread, very limited (thank goodness! Or what havoc could be wrought? Obviously things are bad enough already, due to all imperfect choices made since creation, or since rationality was endowed.

A series of learning for me was concluded with a question to me.. why did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought not only occurred but had ripened into outright sedition and revolt? Didn't He know what would happen?

  :laughing7: Of course He did!  It seems to me like, get this issue of totaLLy learning good from evil (life from death) out of the way.. Or more exact, as a foundation truth all " in heaven and earth" must learn and have written (deeply etched?) upon eveRy heart and mind. The knowing that to wander away from God who is life, simply can never, ever work..All fully knowing it can only ever be self destruction.. if without His intervention.. It just can never work.. Seeing as He is (the only) life itself..

Hi there.
I really appreciate your response Marie.
I think a lot of what my 'problem' (with scripture) is that sometimes I find it hard to 'accept' (let God be God)? 
...But it's because I can't see love (God) in a lot of those passages. 

That said...
There is a website called 'evilbible' which (although it makes some fair ish points) totally blows everything out of proportion and out of context making everything sound worse than it is...and that's not looking for truth...That's just being deluded.
I can only say that I am 'honestly' seeking (or at least I think I am)...I'm certainly being as honest with myself as possible.

Maybe...Just maybe...God did all that 'stuff' in the OT to see the reaction of his 'chosen people' when Jesus arrived!  ...Sort of how 'hell' is nowadays....  Like maybe God thought (I'm dramatizing here): "Let's make them think hell is real...I'll leave the odd proper translation around and anyone looking with sincerity will find answers....The ones that know what love is won't believe in hell anyway".

...Something like that maybe?
Maybe God hides things? 
Hyperbole, parables...Pearls to swine and all that?
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart".
I'm just thinking...

The thing is too...
...I have in the past 'hated' my brother...Hated just about everyone at some time no doubt...  Not even righteous hatred at times. 
Maybe that's where the difference is with God and me also... Something may sound harsh (in the OT) but for all I know it was for the right reasons...
If I had been alive in those days (or even these days) and a 'prophet' told me to start stoning someone...I couldn't...I just couldn't...UNLESS he was a right nasty one I guess (see I'm changing my mind even as I write this)....  I wouldn't take any enjoyment from it though...But then again...I've been reading a lot of historical books recently...Mainly concerning Scots heros like Robert the Bruce and Wallace...  And you know what... Sometimes I cheer when the bad guy gets it (like the swine who murdered his wife). 
...Wallace storms into his HQ singlehandedly and slays everyone and burns it down and you can't help think "Well done!"  (For wrong or right!)
Those times were evil that...I honestly believe that those men were put there by God...I mean...I would never have been born if not for those men...They liberated our entire country.  Wallace is said to have had many visions from God.  He actually wanted to train as a priest and perhaps even had some training.  Even as he was being executed it was declared that he died in peace (by Wallace) because despite the things he did (had to do?) Wallace said God had forgiven him. 
I think he was forced to fight back...for himself, his family, his entire country... As I say...I'm thankful to those men for being born.
... I guess It's the old 'don't judge it till you walk a mile in it's shoes' sort of thing.
Again..I'm just thinking a-loud...Trying to find answers. 
I'm just trying to say here that maybe God had good reasons to do what was done in the OT...

I too believe that God created evil...And I didn't find that from the bible... Which is surpising in some ways because it seems most of christianity thinks God would 'never do that'!
Evil...BUT...'Not' evil like we know it (as you know)...It's sort of like...(to use the sun and rain analogy)...
...Some people love the rain (farmers) but hate the sun. 
Some people hate the rain (me (you would too if you lived in scotland lol)) but love the sun.
...BUT...
...Too much rain and the farmer would start to hate it and too much sun and I'd grow to hate it. 
...Yet...Both sun and rain are needed to create a beautiful rainbow...Both working together in unison...Both 'used' for the proper reasons can create beautiful things... 
...Sort of like how a spoiled child (all of us at one time no doubt) become (hopefully) wiser, more greatful, etc as life progressed and we 'learned'.

I had a sort of mini revelation the other night when I was out walking (regarding your last point).
It was like...God is the reality... (It's so hard to explain what I learned in words lol)... 
...It's like...God isn't saying 'do this' or 'do that' because he has an ego or something...Its 'cos he loves me...It's cos we were made for him like parts of a jigsaw and only find rest in him...  It's not a bad thing. 
It's sort of like...If you pulled out a knife to attack He would be more concerned about you hurting yourself with the knife than Him being hurt...
I felt a bit ashamed...
...I got the feeling too that I can no more be 'me' than God can be 'God'.  As He says 'I am'. 
...It was like learning my place in the universe and where things fit...that I'm me and He is God and to let Him be God.

Does ANYTHING i've written make any sense to anyone?  Is ANYTHING i'm saying 'biblical'?

I really appreciate you all.  :HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

Appreciate your thoughts Marc. It looks like God is working in you, so praise God for that!

I apologize for my comment before. Should have worded it differently, so hope you forgive me too.

And, as with all Spiritual things, sometimes words fail to describe them.

[guest6024]

The best work I  have see about Free Will is by Augustine of Hippo:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

You will see a lot of support for Universal Salvation in that writing.

Wow what a find!  Just downloaded it...I'll be reading this later!

[guest6024]

Appreciate your thoughts Marc. It looks like God is working in you, so praise God for that!

I apologize for my comment before. Should have worded it differently, so hope you forgive me too.

And, as with all Spiritual things, sometimes words fail to describe them.

Thank you!
Definitely no need to apologize you didn't do anything wrong!
I've just been reading some of that free will document that trettep posted about Augustine and he said he found words hard to describe some things too...So that's good lol.

[marie glen]

Hi Marc! I think your post made a lot of sense and I agree it shows our Father is at work in you.. I especially like the thing about the knife and how His concern is for us..

I watch a few old 'cowboy' shows( hubby's a big fan). And in some of those episodes you really do despise the'badguy'.. Thy're SO bad sometimes.. and so heartless! And I'm sure real life 'bad' characters are just as heartless and worse. Modern wise it seems like lots of folks prefer to coddle the 'bad' guys.. like with revolving door policies with criminals.. let loose, they harm others and the cycle is repeated.

But I like "reap what we sow" and like the prophet Obadiah wrote "your doings will return on your or their own heads" (paraphrasing with bad memory).

Also I don't believe in any sort of after life torment except deep inner horror and regret of evils done.. I do believe each age has its reaping as they sowed, etc., sometimes fiery apocalypse and in the Old Testament I believe the prophets prophesied these.. But pagan belief turned it into afterlife 'hell'.

And even though ppl and nations can be destroyed and brought to ruin, God will resurrect all people (and nations are made up of ppl). [I believe judgement 'day' will be a great 'day' of review of all history.. a traumatic day w/ lots of weeping n gnashing of teeth, and a 'day' to really hammer home this lesson and learning of good from evil.. :2c: ]

Gotta run for now.. ps, I cant help noticing your 555, as my birth date is 5/5/55 and the lord often uses doubles and triples of numbers to ? I'm not sure what.. to confirm something..
:Peace2:

[guest6024]

Hi Marc! I think your post made a lot of sense and I agree it shows our Father is at work in you.. I especially like the thing about the knife and how His concern is for us..

I watch a few old 'cowboy' shows( hubby's a big fan). And in some of those episodes you really do despise the'badguy'.. Thy're SO bad sometimes.. and so heartless! And I'm sure real life 'bad' characters are just as heartless and worse. Modern wise it seems like lots of folks prefer to coddle the 'bad' guys.. like with revolving door policies with criminals.. let loose, they harm others and the cycle is repeated.

But I like "reap what we sow" and like the prophet Obadiah wrote "your doings will return on your or their own heads" (paraphrasing with bad memory).

Also I don't believe in any sort of after life torment except deep inner horror and regret of evils done.. I do believe each age has its reaping as they sowed, etc., sometimes fiery apocalypse and in the Old Testament I believe the prophets prophesied these.. But pagan belief turned it into afterlife 'hell'.

And even though ppl and nations can be destroyed and brought to ruin, God will resurrect all people (and nations are made up of ppl). [I believe judgement 'day' will be a great 'day' of review of all history.. a traumatic day w/ lots of weeping n gnashing of teeth, and a 'day' to really hammer home this lesson and learning of good from evil.. :2c: ]

Gotta run for now.. ps, I cant help noticing your 555, as my birth date is 5/5/55 and the lord often uses doubles and triples of numbers to ? I'm not sure what.. to confirm something..
:Peace2:

From what I know about God I think 'hell' will be feeling ashamed... It doesn't sound 'hellish' to most people (i've even had 'fundamentalists' laugh in my face) but woah...They have no idea...I've felt a little bit of it before and it really does 'burn like hell'...Pure torment...
...When you see yourself for what you are in light of pure love and truth and theres no escape...Doesn't  the bible say somewhere its a terrible thing to fall into God's hands...I really believe that...I felt it a little before and to be honest...its probably worse than burning in a real fire...That guilt...So i totally agree with you.  I'm just glad God is merciful and forgiving...  It's so important to forgive isn't it...You lift a huge weight off of people...  It's nice to be forgiven and have your tears wiped away.

[marie glen]

Amen, amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

[darryl]

Here is where I am at on the subject of free will.

First thing, in my dictionary the definition of free will is: The human will regarded as free from restraints, compulsions, etc. ;freedom of CHOICE.

Since God knows everything from beginning to end, then he had to have it all planned out from start to finish. If this is true how can we change a single thing?

Even if we had free will God had to give it to us and therefore it isn't free at all just like he gave us eyes to see our CHOICES that come from him, plus our feelings that enable us to choose our CHOICES.

If God is our creator and he gave us our brain, eyes, mouth, hands, you name it, how can we think that any thing is of ourselves?

The dictionary says, "freedom of choice" but where did our choices come from? God. It says that "the whole heaven and earth is mine". God gave us every choice we choose.

Everytime it seems the scriptures indicate any free will it is always connected to works. Free will is nothing but works without God. With God, Paul said "for it is God who works in us BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure".

This is my personal opinion but if man was given a free will of his own what a mess we would have. I am so thankful to know that it is God who is in control and not me. I am like a sheep who cannot find it's way most of the time. I am a piece of clay what can clay do?

Someone said to me one time, "God doesn't care what color house I like, or what I eat for breakfast". I said, "why do you like a certain color?  Why do you like certain foods"?  It all starts with God and ends wioth God.

God gave us the brain we have, he gives us color, he provides us with food, it is through the brain that we choose the things we choose and I bet no one can answer as to what makes them choose certain things.

It does say, "choose this day whom you will serve" {works}but then it says no one can come to me except he be dragged. (2Cor. 3:14) says "but their minds were blinded". So, how could they choose? How can this be free will? They were influenced by Satan or God, so, how could their choices be of free will? They only had two choices, God and Satan, they were  given a wicked heart and a fleshly mind, they didn't have the Holy Spirit, just WORKS that they couldn't keep.

I could write all day oin this and just touch the surface of it all. The way I see things is, everything comes from God and all will return to God. There is nothing of myself, it is all of him, for him, and to him.

CHB

Amen !

[joeteekay]

More about free will:
https//:www.bibleanalytics.ca/will.html