the Bible - literal or not?

[thinktank]

"Right now there is a conceited effort to distort our true origins." TT

In what way? How can this be?

I'll stand here    Rom 8:37  but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
Rom 8:38  for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
Rom 8:39  nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of god, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now what "true origins" do you speak of? I'm just wondering. :dontknow:

That we are from God.

[micah7:9]

Okay, the responses here are really confusing me. I feel like the rest of you are highly evolved spiritual beings, and I'm just a lowly...something. Maybe I should rephrase my question...if it even is a question. I'm surrounded by people at work that don't believe God exists, because so much of science seems to conflict with the stories of the Bible. I guess we can say it's irrelevant whether the stories are literally true or not, but recognize this is a big stumbling block for a lot of people. No matter what happens, I am going to know that God exists, I can sense Him within me, but I do see some conflicts with a literal translation of every single word/story in the Bible and actual history. Can science prove or disprove that there was ever a worldwide flood? I don't know. Can science prove or disprove that the world was created only 6000 years ago, or milions or billions of years ago? I don't know. Some people have a real problem believing that a real, living, breathing person named Jonah was swallowed by a literal whale. Or that God literally parted the Red Sea. We can say that's irrelevant, but where do we stop? Do we say it's irrelevant if there was  a Virgin Birth or not? Do we believe that Jesus was just a made up person? Do you see where I'm going with this? I was brought up to believe that "either every word of the Bible is true, or none of it is true". Not sure that I feel that way now. And now I'm not even sure I belong in this discussion forum.

I think the premise is that having knowledge that God exists and the bible is true, doesn't make someone worship God.

I also think that man deliberatly blinds himself from the truth of God and devise fables, so that he does not have to face the possibility of judgment.

Also the religious preaching of ET does not help at all, by placing the idea that God loses most of his creation into a barbecue, simply because they were not good enough to pass his standards, a prospect that does not motivate a person at all. The writings of Dawkins shows that ET is a stumbling block to their faith.

I hope you continue to discuss here at tentmaker

Very well said :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[Lonely Summer]

Well, as I've had the evolution argument thrown in my face continuously by co-workers, I've gone from being dead set against believing it, to believing that it is possible that evolution is the process through which God created life on Earth. I try to keep an open mind (a sure sign that I am headed to h-e-double-toothpicks in the eyes of my ET friends). I do believe there is truth in every single word of the Bible, but not so sure anymore that I believe each and every story is "literally' true. And I find a lot of people that say they believe the Bible literally make exceptions - I haven't seen any believers walking around with their right arms cut off, or an eye gouged out. There was a time when I thought Jesus really did want me to gouge out my eyes because they were causing me to sin  :sigh:

[Nathan]

I started this a day or so ago but couldn't finish it and lost which thread it applied to. 

We can say that's irrelevant, but where do we stop? Do we say it's irrelevant if there was  a Virgin Birth or not? Do we believe that Jesus was just a made up person? Do you see where I'm going with this? I was brought up to believe that "either every word of the Bible is true, or none of it is true". Not sure that I feel that way now. And now I'm not even sure I belong in this discussion forum.

I would like to respond to this as it appears that the language used is the same I originally wrote pertaining to what is relavant and what isnt'.  I'll once again state what I've stated before on several occasions.  At no time have I stated I see the entire Bible to be soley an allegory.  What I 'have" said is, that it's dimensional.  It has natural truth, it has moral value, and it has spiritual depth.  And as there are different dimensions, for me, there are also different levels of importance to those dimensions.  Each is a progressively deeper step into the next. 

I believe the Tabernacle of Moses is the grand-daddy of dimensional symbolism.  It's divisions of three defining veils separating one operation from the next.  Outer court is illuminated by NATURAL LIGHT via the sun.  Inner court illuminated by CULTIVATED LIGHT relying on men to trim the wicks, prepar the oil and incense, make the bread . . .on and on . . .the Holy of Holies being illuminated by God's presence . . .SPIRITUAL LIGHT . . .

So I read the Bible in the same format.  Natural is outer court, moral value is inner court and spiritual revelation is Holy of Holies.  The spiritual is the most influential in me as it's a spirit to spirit communication.  "That's" what I pursue.  For example, we're reading through Genesis on our Wednesday night bible study class, right now were dealing with Jacob and Esau.

We know the story . . .God tells Rebecah, the mother that the younger will receive the birthright of the older, and everything that pertains.  So she sets out on a plan to make that promise come about.  And Isaac is about to take his last breath and the time comes for the blessing to be passed on to the firstborn son.  That's the natural story, but each player in the story carries a spiritual role "in me".  We're looking at the nature and relationship that unfolds within us between our spirit and our soul with carnalty actively in the mix.  Isaac is my spirit . . .Rebecca is my soul and the seed is to be passed into the offspring birthing in me . . .but there's a lot of human nature at work in the process.

Seeing the Isaac  as the spirit of me . . .read this and see if anything opens up for you. 

Genesis 27
18 He went to his father and said, "My father."

   "Yes, my son," he answered. "Who is it?"

19 Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me. Please sit up and eat some of my game, so that you may give me your blessing."

20 Isaac asked his son, "How did you find it so quickly, my son?"

   "The LORD your God gave me success," he replied.

21 Then Isaac said to Jacob, "Come near so I can touch you, my son, to know whether you really are my son Esau or not."

22 Jacob went close to his father Isaac, who touched him and said, "The voice is the voice of Jacob, but the hands are the hands of Esau." 23 He did not recognize him, for his hands were hairy like those of his brother Esau; so he proceeded to bless him. 24 "Are you really my son Esau?" he asked.

   "I am," he replied.

25 Then he said, "My son, bring me some of your game to eat, so that I may give you my blessing."

   Jacob brought it to him and he ate; and he brought some wine and he drank. 26 Then his father Isaac said to him, "Come here, my son, and kiss me."

27 So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,

   "Ah, the smell of my son
   is like the smell of a field
   that the LORD has blessed.
28 May God give you heaven's dew
   and earth's richness—
   an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
   and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
   and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
   and those who bless you be blessed."

Do you notice that instead of relying on that voice inside him that caused him to question whether it was really his son Esau or not, he instead relied on all of his NATURAL senses instead.  And as a result, HIS SENSES DECIEVED HIM and he gave the blessing, the inheritance to the wrong son.

Yes, God proclaimed it, but Isaac wasn't giving the blessing to Jacob because God declared it.  He did it because his wife . . .soul . . .TRICKED HIM into doing it.  Which again falls directly in line with a previous discussion pertaining to satan being the most subtle beast in all the field.  Scipture even states that man, at his best is a beast.  The human nature is very deceitful and the sublty part is merely part of that deceitfulness.

But "this" is how I read Scripture.  Take the story given and pursue the spiritual truths beneath the surface.  It opens up the dark rooms of my own nature.  It illuminates hidden motives.  It causes me to realize how small I truly am without Christ in me.  It causes me to recognize the flags when I see the same patterns emerging from my own experiences.

If Rebecca would have not manipulated the situation, would Jacob still have received the double portion of a first born son?  absolutely.  God declared it.  But I think if she would have just let God's promise take it's own course, not only would Jacob still have receieved it, but there wouldn't have been the negative consequences that took place afterward . . .Esau was out to kill his own brother.

Oh, by the way, it also caused a question to surface... IF Jacob had ALREADY bought the birthright from his brother . .why all the sneaking around and secracy when the time came for the blessing to be handed down?  Why couldn't he have just told Isaac that Esau sold it?  Did that transaction really have any weight to it after all???

[micah7:9]

Well, as I've had the evolution argument thrown in my face continuously by co-workers, I've gone from being dead set against believing it, to believing that it is possible that evolution is the process through which God created life on Earth. I try to keep an open mind (a sure sign that I am headed to h-e-double-toothpicks in the eyes of my ET friends). I do believe there is truth in every single word of the Bible, but not so sure anymore that I believe each and every story is "literally' true. And I find a lot of people that say they believe the Bible literally make exceptions - I haven't seen any believers walking around with their right arms cut off, or an eye gouged out. There was a time when I thought Jesus really did want me to gouge out my eyes because they were causing me to sin  :sigh:

Hey Lonely Summer, the ignorant opinion that the evolutionist have has no basis at all. They are just baiting you, be smart. The higher intelligence people  at least can answer where and how it started, those dolts who consider evolution, all they really want is to upset you and make you wring your hands,they have no real beginning to their theory.  You have a beginning of who you believe in. My first question to you is, do you believe in Jesus Christ? If your answer is yes, then the only and best advice is to ignore their ignorance and read your Bible. Jesus IS Alive.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:

[micah7:9]

Nathan, this is just from me, personally, myself with no thought of malice.

You seem to want to set all of, what you understand and believe, out with such long posts?
I may get lengthy, and when I do I find I  have usually lost my main goal; I would very much like to understand what your perspective is but, I, me, personally get lost in your long posts. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

You are not alone, it would seem we all want to get it out of our head and onto the post. I have meant no offence, I, myself, personally find reading on my monitor lengthy posts, boring, I lose what is trying to be said. That's just me. Cant find a "hug" emotion so H   U    U   G!

[Nathan]

Don't know what to tell you.   :dontknow:

[Molly]

Well, as I've had the evolution argument thrown in my face continuously by co-workers, I've gone from being dead set against believing it, to believing that it is possible that evolution is the process through which God created life on Earth. I try to keep an open mind (a sure sign that I am headed to h-e-double-toothpicks in the eyes of my ET friends). I do believe there is truth in every single word of the Bible, but not so sure anymore that I believe each and every story is "literally' true. And I find a lot of people that say they believe the Bible literally make exceptions - I haven't seen any believers walking around with their right arms cut off, or an eye gouged out. There was a time when I thought Jesus really did want me to gouge out my eyes because they were causing me to sin :sigh:

Sometimes things are literally meant to be taken figuratively.  :gangel:

[thinktank]

Don't know what to tell you.   :dontknow:

Speak in tongues  :laughing7:

[Nathan]

That may the be problem . . .I think I already am.  The deliivery may be in English, but the message seems foreign to most.

[jabcat]

Hey Lonely Summer, the ignorant opinion that the evolutionist have has no basis at all. They are just baiting you, be smart. The higher intelligence people  at least can answer where and how it started, those dolts who consider evolution, all they really want is to upset you and make you wring your hands,they have no real beginning to their theory.  You have a beginning of who you believe in. My first question to you is, do you believe in Jesus Christ? If your answer is yes, then the only and best advice is to ignore their ignorance and read your Bible. Jesus IS Alive.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:

:thumbsup:  blessed and helped by that brother.  thanks. :)

[thinktank]

 :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Hi friends, been a few months since I dropped in here, presently I am reading a very good book titled "What's the Least I Can Believe and Still Be a Christian?"

Who determines the rules?

It raises many good points - bad hangups/ideas Christians have versus things that are absolutely essential to the faith. One thing that comes up numerous times in Biblical literalism. Many Christians now accept scientific evidence of evolution,

The Bible just states God created birds, fish, man, etc. It's usually assumed God said "Let there be birds" and a second later millions of birds were flying in the skies of the few day old earth.
But where exactly does it state things wher ecreated instantly?

don't believe God actually flooded the entire Earth (or that Noah could get two of every species on Earth onto a boat), etc.

Besides the debate if there is enough water to flood the whole planet there is something else to consider. The flood covered the earth=Eretz. Same word as used when the plagues hit the eretz of Egypt. The OT is only about Jews and and the people they interact with. So it wouldn't be that hard to assume the flood was also an event in the "Jewish parts of the world"

But some things are not considered open for debate if you call yourself a Christian, i.e, Jesus' death and resurrection. So my question is, how do we decide which parts of the Bible are merely good stories to learn a moral or lesson from, and which parts should be considered historical fact? This has been nagging at me for quite some time, because I was raised to believe each and every word of the Bible was literally true.

For me it's simple. If even one strory isn't true then it can no longer be claimed the whole Bible is inspired.

There is a big difference between what's in the Bible and how it's understood. Lot's of conflicts between Bible and science are due to misunderstandings.
Usually due to bad scholarship on the part of the Christian theologians. 12th century Jews knew about an ancient earth, gravitation and even had a Big Bang concept.
At the time of Columbus the "Christian world" was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.
Surely science has be wrong too, but tends to admit mistakes more easily.

[Lonely Summer]

 

Well, as I've had the evolution argument thrown in my face continuously by co-workers, I've gone from being dead set against believing it, to believing that it is possible that evolution is the process through which God created life on Earth. I try to keep an open mind (a sure sign that I am headed to h-e-double-toothpicks in the eyes of my ET friends). I do believe there is truth in every single word of the Bible, but not so sure anymore that I believe each and every story is "literally' true. And I find a lot of people that say they believe the Bible literally make exceptions - I haven't seen any believers walking around with their right arms cut off, or an eye gouged out. There was a time when I thought Jesus really did want me to gouge out my eyes because they were causing me to sin :sigh:

Sometimes things are literally meant to be taken figuratively.  :gangel:

:grin:

[micah7:9]

Hi friends, been a few months since I dropped in here, presently I am reading a very good book titled "What's the Least I Can Believe and Still Be a Christian?"

Who determines the rules?

It raises many good points - bad hangups/ideas Christians have versus things that are absolutely essential to the faith. One thing that comes up numerous times in Biblical literalism. Many Christians now accept scientific evidence of evolution,

The Bible just states God created birds, fish, man, etc. It's usually assumed God said "Let there be birds" and a second later millions of birds were flying in the skies of the few day old earth.
But where exactly does it state things wher ecreated instantly?

don't believe God actually flooded the entire Earth (or that Noah could get two of every species on Earth onto a boat), etc.

Besides the debate if there is enough water to flood the whole planet there is something else to consider. The flood covered the earth=Eretz. Same word as used when the plagues hit the eretz of Egypt. The OT is only about Jews and and the people they interact with. So it wouldn't be that hard to assume the flood was also an event in the "Jewish parts of the world"

But some things are not considered open for debate if you call yourself a Christian, i.e, Jesus' death and resurrection. So my question is, how do we decide which parts of the Bible are merely good stories to learn a moral or lesson from, and which parts should be considered historical fact? This has been nagging at me for quite some time, because I was raised to believe each and every word of the Bible was literally true.

For me it's simple. If even one strory isn't true then it can no longer be claimed the whole Bible is inspired.

There is a big difference between what's in the Bible and how it's understood. Lot's of conflicts between Bible and science are due to misunderstandings.
Usually due to bad scholarship on the part of the Christian theologians. 12th century Jews knew about an ancient earth, gravitation and even had a Big Bang concept.
At the time of Columbus the "Christian world" was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.
Surely science has be wrong too, but tends to admit mistakes more easily.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

"Sometimes things are literally meant to be taken figuratively.  :gangel:" Molly

Now that is A statement! :icon_flower: