The repeated "if" of Romans 8 bothers me

[Deena]

Romans 8:9-11 makes me nervous. Does the Spirit of God dwell in me? I believe so but how is one ever sure. My flesh seems to be in control much of the time. This leaves room for torturous doubt "if" I have His spirit. I feel like a dog chasing it's tail and can find no rest.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What you are describing is fear, and fear brings torment. God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. Do you confess that He has come IN YOUR FLESH? Because no man can say this except by the power of the Holy Ghost. If you can, tell the enemy to take a hike and get on with seeking His face and fellowshipping with Him and be at peace, knowing that He who has begun a good work in you will finish it. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: What you are describing is fear, and fear brings torment. God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. Do you confess that He has come IN YOUR FLESH? Because no man can say this except by the power of the Holy Ghost. If you can, tell the enemy to take a hike and get on with seeking His face and fellowshipping with Him and be at peace, knowing that He who has begun a good work in you will finish it. Blessings....

:thumbsup: :happy3: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap: :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

:cloud9: What you are describing is fear, and fear brings torment. God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. Do you confess that He has come IN YOUR FLESH? Because no man can say this except by the power of the Holy Ghost. If you can, tell the enemy to take a hike and get on with seeking His face and fellowshipping with Him and be at peace, knowing that He who has begun a good work in you will finish it. Blessings....

Me too.    :happy3: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap: :HeartThrob:

CHB     
     

[jabcat]

Amen. 

[Deena]

Very interesting. I never thought about Him coming into my flesh. I always believed He came into my spirit giving me life. If sin is condemned in the flesh how does Christ dwell there? Forgive what might be a silly question. I am new to UR and trying to sort it all out. Thanks all for your help.

[Lonely Summer]

Very interesting. I never thought about Him coming into my flesh. I always believed He came into my spirit giving me life. If sin is condemned in the flesh how does Christ dwell there? Forgive what might be a silly question. I am new to UR and trying to sort it all out. Thanks all for your help.

Yes, yes, good question. Just one of many things I am confused about.

[redhotmagma]

The flesh is like the tabernacle.  And the word became flesh and tabernacled among us.  The flesh is the veil that was torn (between the inner court and the holy of holies).

[micah7:9]

Very interesting. I never thought about Him coming into my flesh. I always believed He came into my spirit giving me life. If sin is condemned in the flesh how does Christ dwell there? Forgive what might be a silly question. I am new to UR and trying to sort it all out. Thanks all for your help.

Joh 3:7  Do not marvel, that I said unto thee: Ye must needs be born from above.

Joh 17:16  `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not;

2Co 5:17  so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

Rom 8:1  There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2  for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3  for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Dont know it that helps.

[Deena]

So,then was sin condemned in Christ's flesh on the cross? Sin is condemned in my flesh which will return to the dust? In whose flesh is sin condemned? I don't get it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Rephrase it this way.....He condemned sin {when He came in a flesh body}.

[Nathan]

For me it's based on the fact that God is working in us, both to will and to do.  He's the one that changes our will to "want" to "do" what "his" will is.  We don't even have to "know" what that will is.  Just be willing to let him give us his will.  He's in us for his own pleasure.  Being in us pleases him.  We are his craftmenship.  What you are right now is what God has formed, is forming and will continue to form you into his desire.  Putting our guard up is actually "self-preservation"  We're trying to preserve and protect "self" which isnt' letting him do his will.  Instead, we're trying to reinforce our own.  But "his" will in us leads to rest . . .to peace, to joy . . soon, we're actually lliving in it because that's really what's living in us.

What about the times we fall short?  One word.  One profoundly fantastic, never-ending, forever encompassing word.  GRACE.  Where sin abounds . . .Grace abounds EVEN MORE.

[Nathan]

Message Translation puts your passage in question this way . . .

9-11But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we're talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells—even though you still experience all the limitations of sin—you yourself experience life on God's terms. It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if the alive-and-present God who raised Jesus from the dead moves into your life, he'll do the same thing in you that he did in Jesus, bringing you alive to himself? When God lives and breathes in you (and he does, as surely as he did in Jesus), you are delivered from that dead life. With his Spirit living in you, your body will be as alive as Christ's!

[Molly]

Message Translation puts your passage in question this way . . .

9-11But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we're talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells—even though you still experience all the limitations of sin—you yourself experience life on God's terms. It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if the alive-and-present God who raised Jesus from the dead moves into your life, he'll do the same thing in you that he did in Jesus, bringing you alive to himself? When God lives and breathes in you (and he does, as surely as he did in Jesus), you are delivered from that dead life. With his Spirit living in you, your body will be as alive as Christ's!

That's a beautiful translation!

[Deena]

Nathan, that was beautiful and now I think i get it. Oh what a wonder it is to be in Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

Romans 8:9-11 makes me nervous. Does the Spirit of God dwell in me? I believe so but how is one ever sure. My flesh seems to be in control much of the time. This leaves room for torturous doubt "if" I have His spirit. I feel like a dog chasing it's tail and can find no rest.

To LIVE is to grow — and to grow is to change — "if" you have His Spirit — you'll change!

[Nathan]

Beloved Servant, you remind me of the passage that speaks about NEW WINE being poured into old wineskins will surely bring about change as well .  . . they'll break.  But New Wine into new wineskin has the same affects as far as bringing change goes, but because of the flexibility of the new skin, it expands "with" the new wine and no broken vessel is necessary.  This also appears to fit the church system quite well also.  With all the boundaries of what you can and can't beleive, there's not much room for any stretching or expansion of maturity into the endless depths of God's nature . . .something's gotta give!!

But when we break away from the system, we find that we can live, and move and have OUR being IN HIM.  I can stil lbe me while he continues to evolve me more and more into his likeness.  The more aware I become of these growth spurts, the more I fall further in love with the Father . . .infinite love is  . . .endless!!!

[micah7:9]

For me it's based on the fact that God is working in us, both to will and to do.  He's the one that changes our will to "want" to "do" what "his" will is.  We don't even have to "know" what that will is.  Just be willing to let him give us his will.  He's in us for his own pleasure.  Being in us pleases him.  We are his craftmenship.  What you are right now is what God has formed, is forming and will continue to form you into his desire.  Putting our guard up is actually "self-preservation"  We're trying to preserve and protect "self" which isnt' letting him do his will.  Instead, we're trying to reinforce our own.  But "his" will in us leads to rest . . .to peace, to joy . . soon, we're actually lliving in it because that's really what's living in us.

What about the times we fall short?  One word.  One profoundly fantastic, never-ending, forever encompassing word.  GRACE.  Where sin abounds . . .Grace abounds EVEN MORE.

"We don't even have to "know" what that will is.  Just be willing to let him give us his will." Nathan
This part makes me like a robot, I cannot see that. In my  opinion He comes into this life of clay and explains and brings forth
what and how He will deal with me. There is no "guard" to be put up, I have surrendered to Him. Its is my belief that He wants and desires for me to fully and totally aware of the work He will do in me and with me. God is Love He cares.

[Deena]

For 25years I believed the turn or burn gospel was truth. How did I come out of that? God. Iwasn't looking for it at all. I now believe that none of us has the spiritual sense to know anything unless God reveals it. How could He leave it up to children to figure out? My only hope is that He is in control of the info flow, or I will wander back into my deluded beliefs.

[thinktank]

Continue the good fight, nobody said it would be easy.

[micah7:9]

Continue the good fight, nobody said it would be easy.

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

For 25years I believed the turn or burn gospel was truth. How did I come out of that? God. Iwasn't looking for it at all. I now believe that none of us has the spiritual sense to know anything unless God reveals it. How could He leave it up to children to figure out? My only hope is that He is in control of the info flow, or I will wander back into my deluded beliefs.

Amen.  :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

For me it's based on the fact that God is working in us, both to will and to do.  He's the one that changes our will to "want" to "do" what "his" will is.  We don't even have to "know" what that will is.  Just be willing to let him give us his will.  He's in us for his own pleasure.  Being in us pleases him.  We are his craftmenship.  What you are right now is what God has formed, is forming and will continue to form you into his desire.  Putting our guard up is actually "self-preservation"  We're trying to preserve and protect "self" which isnt' letting him do his will.  Instead, we're trying to reinforce our own.  But "his" will in us leads to rest . . .to peace, to joy . . soon, we're actually lliving in it because that's really what's living in us.

What about the times we fall short?  One word.  One profoundly fantastic, never-ending, forever encompassing word.  GRACE.  Where sin abounds . . .Grace abounds EVEN MORE.

"We don't even have to "know" what that will is.  Just be willing to let him give us his will." Nathan
This part makes me like a robot, I cannot see that. In my  opinion He comes into this life of clay and explains and brings forth
what and how He will deal with me. There is no "guard" to be put up, I have surrendered to Him. Its is my belief that He wants and desires for me to fully and totally aware of the work He will do in me and with me. God is Love He cares.

Don't know what to tell you.   :dontknow:

[Nathan]

Continue the good fight, nobody said it would be easy.

Excuse me?  COME UNTO ME, I WILL GIVE YOU REST, MY YOKE IS EASY AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT . . .

Rather than fighting the fight, let us enter into the Rest.  Grace is what reveals truth to us, enter into the grace.  The only "fight" that exists is the one between our ears.  Much of Paul's fight was against those who kept dogging him from city to city.  He didn't fight to understand God's nature in him, that came by God revealing it to him.  I don't think Deena is trying to fight religious aggressors as much as she's got a lot of inward questions, a lot of "what about"s going on that the Spirit has answers to, but the head still wrestles.

I'd merely say . .let it go.  God brought you here, he'll take you there.  Just continue being hungry, willing and looking.  The battle isn't yours to fight anymore.  Let him turn your weaponry into plowshares.  Become a planter of his truths, let him plant his truths in your field where they'll grow, mature and you're understanding will be harvested with a great surplus of the abundant life he promised all of us.  It's manifesting his "rest"in you, knowing that by his Grace, in Him you live and move and, oh yeah, have your being.  He isn't going to make you be something your not, he's merely revealing to you that the "real" you hasn't even sprouted yet.  The real you is still maturing in Him.  So . . .you can continue being the you that you are now while your living and moving "in" Him. 

[Taffy]

Continue the good fight, nobody said it would be easy.

Excuse me?  COME UNTO ME, I WILL GIVE YOU REST, MY YOKE IS EASY AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT . . .

Rather than fighting the fight, let us enter into the Rest.  Grace is what reveals truth to us, enter into the grace.  The only "fight" that exists is the one between our ears.  Much of Paul's fight was against those who kept dogging him from city to city.  He didn't fight to understand God's nature in him, that came by God revealing it to him.  I don't think Deena is trying to fight religious aggressors as much as she's got a lot of inward questions, a lot of "what about"s going on that the Spirit has answers to, but the head still wrestles.

I'd merely say . .let it go.  God brought you here, he'll take you there.  Just continue being hungry, willing and looking.  The battle isn't yours to fight anymore.  Let him turn your weaponry into plowshares.  Become a planter of his truths, let him plant his truths in your field where they'll grow, mature and you're understanding will be harvested with a great surplus of the abundant life he promised all of us.  It's manifesting his "rest"in you, knowing that by his Grace, in Him you live and move and, oh yeah, have your being.  He isn't going to make you be something your not, he's merely revealing to you that the "real" you hasn't even sprouted yet.  The real you is still maturing in Him.  So . . .you can continue being the you that you are now while your living and moving "in" Him.

Amen~