The Reformation - Moment or Process?

[Kratos]

One of the most important periods is church history was what has been termed by histororians as the Reformation. After around 1000 years of the Dark Ages, light from Heaven again shone in the hearts of men through the Word. Many basked in the glory of the truth that man was saved by grace without the works of the law, but others cried "heresy" and persecution by the established church of the time followed.

My question for all who want to participate is if this was a unique moment in history or a process that continues until today. The Bible records many examples of God intervening in the lives of men to bring reformation and the response was similar as we saw in the time of Martin Luther.

For example, Saul was anointed as king of Israel, but was disobedient to God and David was anointed in his place. Many suffered with David outside the camp of Israel living in caves while others remained loyal to the former move of God and threw javelins (metaphorically speaking) at the new plan of God. A very revealing fact is that David was busy as one of Saul's generals killing the enemies of Saul so he was doing nothing wrong. But, instead of rejoicing with David in his victories, envy set in as the people proclaimed that Saul had killed his thousands and David his ten thousands. It seems that envy and a fear of loss of control fueled Saul's desire to kill David. It seems part of the pattern for the former move of God to be first to persecute the new because they feel that they have the most to lose as God's focus shifts to another group.

Another primary example was when Jesus came on the scene. There is no doubt that the old Temple and the Law of Moses was of God. But, the primary persecutors of both Jesus and the early church were the Jews. Notice what Peter said when these Jews asked what they should do to be saved.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

He tells these members of the last move of God in the face of the new move of God to repent (turn around or about face) and be converted to this new move when times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord. He further explains that Jesus must continue to be in Heaven until the "times of restitution of al things".

It definitely was prophetic for Peter to speak of the need for restitution or restoration. God knew that the Church would go into darkness and need to be restored. But notice that the Holy Spirit through Peter speaks of this restitution of all things as being accomplished through times (plural) of refreshing from the presence of the Lord.

It is my belief, that this process of restitution or restoration has been a process since the fall through the times of refreshing through men chosen of God like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, Jesus, the Apostles of the Lamb, Martin Luther etc. However, in each case, there were those who rejoiced and stayed current with God and those who cried "heresy" and stayed faithful to a former move while persecuting the new thing that God was doing.

Martin Luther, the great reformer, fought the Anabaptists when God restored baptism after salvation and men like John Calvin persecuted their detractors that tried to add some light to what they had received.

Again, my question, do others see God continuing to bring about restoration through a continuing series of times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord? If you say, Yes, do you usually stay flexible and try to move with the cloud of God's Spirit in each subsequent move or are you one who believes that we have all of the truth that we need so are quick to cry "heresy" and persecute those who feel that they are following on with God?

Or, finally, are you more like Gamaliel, in the middle and consider it wise to just leave it alone and wait and see?

Act 5:38  And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

John

[dboutwell]

John,

It does seem to be a process doesn't it? It is becoming very clear how God uses and has always used "opposites" in revealing Himself and His power/love.

The light of His love shines ever so bright on the dark background of sin and religion.

1Co 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

May we not take for granted the privilege of knowing what we know.  :HeartThrob:

Debbie

[arcticmonster2003]

In my experience it has always served me best to be flexible, as God leads each particular day or time. Everytime I try and stiffen up I suffer and am "punished". I guess I really think that if one is not flexible, then they will be broken, and this isn't any fun at all. :sigh:

[Kratos]

I actually copied this question that I posted on another board where I have been labelled a heretic for believing and teaching UR. I thought it might help some see that their stance is not a knew one and that UR may just be the next time of refreshing from the Lord in the process of restoration.

We will see,

John

[Redlettervoice]

Kratos, brother, I give thanks to the Lord for you yesterday and wanted to say a word here.  I have noticed
a solideness in you, a standing based on what you hear from God and an unyielding to the things "man" would tell you.  It is a stubbornness to some, but a solidness to God, I believe to have to be convinced by
God Himself of things. Not a thing wrong with wanting to hear truth from God.  He will eventually show us
that He takes "over' ........perhaps He always has been in control, even when we thought we were, but
you will see yourself like Ezekiel did, a "wheel" in the middle of the Big Wheel.......and wheresoever the "wheel" went, it was taken by the Big Wheel, like a hubcap in the wheel of a car!  Yea, I would say
that was God.......We are the work of HIS Hands, and yes, I see that is has always been the case, concerning your question. People that lived and walked with God a thousand years ago, had many of the
"same" experiences and much of the same Word, perhaps not the advantages of the computer, but the
same God, and the Bible "does" say, things common unto man.  Bless you and your family as you watch
your journey unfold that God wrote!

[Kratos]

Thank you for the Word and I do know that the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. It does give peace and rest to know Who is ultimately in control. I do believe that like a good father who not only wants his child protected, but also wants them to grow up, God allows our misteps and subsequent bearing of consequences for our learning. But, He is always waiting and willing to pick us up and put us back on His path when we awaken in the swine pit and come to ourselves.

John

[SeekerSA]

John

I tend to agree that UR is a continuing process of reformation.  It is being rejected by many as it is so controversial.  One need just look at the Pentecostal movement evolving into the Charismatic movement in the last 30 years or so.

The problem is with every new move of God, it runs awhile until man sees fit to legalise the move, viz assigning rules SoF et al.

If we look back at many reformations, we see this pattern clearly.  One now has to really sift through to find the truths of that time and toss out at least 90% which is man-made.

A thing I have come to notice is this.

When I got saved, the ministry through which I got saved, the late Barry Smith from New Zealand, he said something that has always stuck with me but I have never found the evidence to support it.  He said, "It only took 70-100 years for the early church to be corrupted by satan.  In my studies thus far wrt to the early church, one can see personal bias creeping in and like what Jesus alluded to "you teach the doctrines of men as commandment of God"

To me UR thought is just that, thought.

From the age of 8, I never believed in Hell and even after I got saved, the questions I had never went away.  Many of the myths like the fall of the angels with Lucifer becoming satan, I could not see how people came to their conclusions.  What I have found is that many believe but do not or cannot arguably state why apart from the normal run-of-the-mill church systems and/or center margin bible references.

What I have also seen, those examining history with a set mindset will only find or read those parts that reaffirm their current beliefs.

What is sad, most only have fire-insurance as believers and never enter into the fullness of God.  The Pentecostal theologies are now so well entrenched and false tongues and false prophesies so everyday that the majority are merely blind sheep being led by blind shepherds/teachers accepting what they see or hear as truth; hence the many called but few chosen.

In UR, what I see, the hardest thing is letting go of the paradigm mindset indoctrinated into us, we see it here too.  The difference here is, no one man prescribes how you should understand/perceive things and that we accept that the journey is one of perpetual revelation, provided we remain in the word.

One need only look at Paul's life.  Why was he chosen to be the light to the Gentiles?  He too was a Jew, a learned man and the most of the apostles were simple folk.  He was established in the OT traditions just as the others were yet he was IMO the more learned of all.  He was the one who "broke down" or exposed the traditions of the Jews of the day, he was not a disciple and persecuted the Christians of the day.  The central theme I pick up from his teachings is anti-tradition yet others see him introducing new tradition.

Simply said, I always measure everything by these two scriptures:

Joh 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Blessings

[reFORMer]

     In his book MEGASHIFT Barna says the majority of Christians worldwide already meet in their homes and by 2010 , at the present rate of growth, the majority in the United States will meet in their homes.   Of course many have brought Babylon with them.  But if 17%, the amount of the one out of seven of the priesthood that returned from Babylon, would meet as a  body for Christ WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP I wonder if we would begin to transition into a Millennial Age.  (I like to dream...)
     My assertion is that this is an as yet unrecognized 1.) REVIVAL (of Spirit) of the most potent and unavoidable kind:  2.) reFORMation! (of structure) that certainly includes 3.) realignment (of doctrine) to be more accurately adjusted to the Truth.  The change that is NOW "distilling as the dew" will prove to be more extensive and profound than that of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500's!   This is going to be "a Tsunami of the Spirit" and a "Hurricane of Fire!"  I believe Jesus is bringing out under His own direct authority a people who will be taught of Him and become "Overcomers." (Rev 2-3)
     Though it's hardly been recognized, we are well into the forward edge of this move of God in the USA and already opening salvos of what Rick Joiner saw as a bloody civil war in the Church have been fired.  The position of "Charisma," which I think has one of the largest subscription bases of Christian magazines, sounds like what must've been said to the Lutherans in the later 1500's.  It claims that those meeting in their homes have left the Church and it's a deception sapping the vitality from the true Church.  They say some men with warped personalities will take over an ignorant living room full of people.  Does anyone else feel the humor on this one?  Swaggart was running about $11.5 million a month thru' his "ministry."  Haggard had what, 60,000 in attendance?  We all know some other mighty big living rooms!  "Charisma" also hasn't been allowing any honorable rebuttal, only fragments of "I think," "I feel," and, "It seems to me."  I'm glad their influence is undermined because they're making room for the doctrinal changes that are already becoming obvious, doctrines they oppose like, "God...the savior of all mankind." (1 Ti 4:9)  Oh glory!  I can feel the fire upon me now!!!
     Well, I WENT TO CHURCH BUT THE CHURCH WASN'T ON THE PROGRAM!!!  They had other mediators in defiance of the First Commandment and prevent the "one anothering" that fulfills the whole law and prophets.  I left seeking for more Church, where every member participates and there's a living search of the Scripture.  No more being an audience for preachers with titles of honor from other professional elite who appeal to the largest donor base!  I don't care how knowledgeable or gifted the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ and JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!
     ---James Rohde
P.S.  (I hope I can live up to David's example and not lift a hand against Saul.  And, Revival is both crisis and process, event and eventual.)
     

[Kratos]

An exellent post and exactly how I see it too. I was sent back to a town where I once "pastored" under the Babylonian system before I experienced my personal Daniel 4 type cutting down. I was told that if I obeyed and returned to the place of my fall that I would experience Him in the power of the resurrection. Of course, I thought that I would see the old church resurrected, but after three years, I still have not been released to do anything but meet weekly in my home with a few old friends.

He told me to "wait until you receive power from on high". Still waiting, but I won't move without it. I have experienced a measure of the power of the church or Pentecostal Age, but am looking for the full resurrection of Tabernacles.

Even so, the Spirit and the Bride say "Come, Lord Jesus".

John