I've been reading "The Christian Bible" quite a bit lately. It's very literal and based on the common (Koine) Greek that was the language of the people, and the language the original manuscripts were supposedly written in. I can't swear to its total accuracy, I'm no scholar, but it really brings out some things to me that hit me...really some food for thought, and I believe, for discussion. I'd say it's far more detailed and accurate than a "common language" Bible such as The Message, which I generally think is watered down and I personally don't trust its accuracy to bring out many important "small" details.
The Christian Bible is a bit obscure, most probably haven't ever read it, and I thought I'd list some things as I go that really jump out at me...whether it's because of its truth, pertinence, or even its variance from our usual perspective of scripture.
Sometimes I'll comment, and I really would like to stimulate thought for you as I share this with you. God's blessing, and chime in...enjoy, be blessed and challenged. James.
P.S., Disclaimer; THIS IS NOT A FREE-WILL/SOVEREIGNTY THREAD, PLEASE LET'S DON'T GO THERE :happy3:. THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A BALANCE, GOD DOES WANT US TO SEEK HIM, BE OBEDIENT, ETC., SO THIS ISN'T THE POINT OF THIS THREAD...THIS PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE IS JUST THE FIRST ONE I CAME TO TODAY..THERE'LL BE MANY OTHERS ON MANY TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION.
John 6:64-65; ..there are some of you who don't believe...For this reason I have declared to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted to him by the Father.
To me, this connects to a recent discussion wrt Jesus' use of parables so everyone could understand, etc.....I just don't see it that way. I don't have the total explanation/revelation for it, but I believe God reveals His truths when and to whom He pleases, and as it fits His overall plan...while at the same time, requiring us to seek out matters, study to show ourselves approved, walk in the light as He is in the light, present our bodies as a living sacrifice, etc...Some were apparently given the gift to see, some not...AT THAT TIME...not that they will never see.
Thomas Kissinger writes in his Noble Berean and The Glory of God and The Honor of Kings books, it is God's glory to conceal a matter, reveal it as He chooses, including to those who are "seeking out a matter". And apparently, as stated above, some are granted belief (in this age), and others are not. The good news IMO about that is below;
John 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God :notworthy: [Isa. 54:13]. www.christianbiblesociety.org.
God's blessing, James.
Does this new bible contain the teaching of ET?
Quote from: B_T on January 04, 2009, 07:36:59 PM
Does this new bible contain the teaching of ET?
No, it doesn't. It translates many of the "bible threatenings" as "destruction/destruction in the Last Age/destruction in the symbolic Lake of Fire", etc., which I personally believe fits quite well with UR. It's not overtly advertised as UR friendly, or friendly
anything for that matter, other than literal and accurate...then the chips fall where they may. I'm not saying there's absolutely no bias or interpretation....without an absolute divine miracle, I believe that would be impossible. However, reportedly the translators have striven to absolutely just translate, even if it went against their own prior belief systems. In fact, all of them were dramatically changed during translation...apparently none of them maintained their old affiliations (denominational) etc., when they saw what scripture was
actually saying.
God's blessing, James.
Actually, the jewish bibles contained the following subject: A new messiah will come and will save the jewish nation from the Roman empire.
But they were wrong.
That's why I think that even if a modern bible contains the subject of hell, most people may be wrong.
Hi Jabcat , Bro James
I have so many bibles its not funny lol , plus the on line gateway multi translations they are awesome to compare ..
and Honestly , I am not afraid to read any of them now , I went through a fearful time when I refused any other bible than the KJV lol
and than I got a NASB Hebrew abd Greek study Bible , done alot of study personal with that
but for the biggest part , I can enjoy all of them now without feeling threatened or influenced by them , i could never do that before !
I cannot read actual greek or Hebrew or even other languages , so any one who can do that , I say KUDOS to them :thumbsup:
they dont have the Christian bible on Gateway yet ! maybe some day soon God willing
God love ya :HeartThrob:
I still have fear and I downloaded some versions from Gary's page: "Bibles that don't teach eternal torment".
Call me I'm too sensitive, but I really needed this - though it's not in my mother tongue - Bulgarian.
Very good, I'm glad you did that...God loves you, you are His child, and He only wants what's best for you...and He know what that is. God's blessing, James.
BTW, The CB was published in 1991...it's been around awhile, they're just not a wealthy, big business, high-profile publishing house with all the advertising and connections...
Quote from: B_T on January 04, 2009, 08:18:21 PM
I still have fear and I downloaded some versions from Gary's page: "Bibles that don't teach eternal torment".
Call me I'm too sensitive, but I really needed this - though it's not in my mother tongue - Bulgarian.
Wow! , you are doing well than BT to be able to translate and understand and comprehend what you are able to read , I hope that the Holy Spirit is teaching us all , and we do become complete in Love , not so much the knowledge , but the Knowledge of God and His Son , that being most important to me me now , more than words and ideas
I dont have an opinion like i used to , I have learned that the Spirit of God can get us though anything if we can just learn to trust Him more than our thoughts and processes
God does not Change , God changes us :thumbsup:
John 3:3...whoever hasn't been born from above, can't notice God's kingdom...5 whoever isn't born of water and the Spirit, can't enter into God's Kingdom..7.. you have to be born from above..
13 Now no one has ascended into heaven, except the One who descended out of heaven, the Son of Humanity...
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave the only Son born to Him, so that whoever is continually believing in Him, shall not be destroyed [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death], but shall be having Life in the Last Age...so that the world might be saved [from Destruction through Him]
John 4:23....for an hour is going to come, and now is, when the true worshiper will worship the Father with their spirits [not just in some place] and with the Truth [not just in any manner]." for the Father is also seeking such as these to be continually worshiping Him...God is a spirit... The Christian Bible
"Born from above" = born again? There's some arguing over this, i.e., all are already saved vs. a specific time when God gives faith to believe and the personal relationship begins...I personally believe the latter...partly based on the above scriptures, partly from personal experience...a very real, tangible experience of God's convicting and drawing me to His side...praise belongs to Him...nothing of my works, goodness, or ability...His mercy.
From the Introduction to The Christian Bible; "The Greek word "ekklesia" literally means a "group-of OUT-CALLed-ones", or a "group of persons who have been called or invited". Christians are "Called Ones"...called to share in the inheritance of Life in Paradise (Eph. 1:18), called to be citizens in the Kingdom and to eat the Harvest Feast of the Last Age (Mat. 22:1-14), and called into union with our Savior, Yesu. The word never meant a building, organization, or church. First Century Christians had no clergy, no officers, no corporate organization, no denominations, no church treasury, and no holidays.
The eighteenth chapter of Revelation tells about the coming fall of the church system; and this will occur in the near future to our generation. So please, hear and obey God's command, "You must come out of her, my people!" (Rev. 18:4).
----------------------
I know there's been some postings recently wrt Mystery Babylon...I have found that to be a s/w confusing subject...church system, financial system, both systems interlocked...I'm not sure...comments?
Does anyone have any insight into this? With the TCB being extremely literal and everyday language, I still didn't quite this...probably just missing the spiritual insight...can anyone help?
This is the account of Jesus healing the blind man, that everyone thought was blind because he'd done something wrong...the Pharisees became involved of course, and here's the part I'm not getting exactly...
John 9:39-41....Then Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing; and those who do observe, might become blind." Now those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?" Yesu said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no wrongdoing; yet since you say, "We can observe", your wrongdoing is staying. :dontknow:
God's blessing, James
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2009, 09:06:01 PM
Does anyone have any insight into this? With the TCB being extremely literal and everyday language, I still didn't quite this...probably just missing the spiritual insight...can anyone help?
This is the account of Jesus healing the blind man, that everyone thought was blind because he'd done something wrong...the Pharisees became involved of course, and here's the part I'm not getting exactly...
John 9:39-41....Then Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing; and those who do observe, might become blind." Now those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?" Yesu said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no wrongdoing; yet since you say, "We can observe", your wrongdoing is staying. :dontknow:
God's blessing, James
Hi James
you think like I do ! i also wondered about this very thing
and the best example I found for an answer , because I looked and searched
was Paul
on the road to Damascus , He was seeing because he thought he was doing God a service , but he was Blind to the Truth and whaen Jesus met him on the road Jesus being the Truth way and Life , he was stuck down Blind! by the Light
I thought that answered the pharrisees question in John 9 very well , being that Saul / Paul was a pharissee and levite as well and on the killing end of the ministration of death the Law of Moses the traditional and outward show the Law , that is how he could plainly explain to us in Romans his experiences in the Lord and how Paul learned obedience though the things he suffered for Jesus Christ ..
I hope I was able to explain this right ?
I get excited and mess up rushing through , my mind works faster than my fingers typing lol .. :mblush: it helped me to understand seeing Sauls / Pauls experience
to recive sight the Lord appointed Ananias to help Paul see again when he was stuck with blindness by the Light of Christ and lost sight , he would be healed and see again only see right this time :HeartThrob:
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: Act 9:4 And
he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord?
And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him,
Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And
Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought [him] into Damascus. Act 9:9
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Quote from: rosered on January 10, 2009, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2009, 09:06:01 PM
Does anyone have any insight into this? With the TCB being extremely literal and everyday language, I still didn't quite this...probably just missing the spiritual insight...can anyone help?
This is the account of Jesus healing the blind man, that everyone thought was blind because he'd done something wrong...the Pharisees became involved of course, and here's the part I'm not getting exactly...
John 9:39-41....Then Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing; and those who do observe, might become blind." Now those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?" Yesu said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no wrongdoing; yet since you say, "We can observe", your wrongdoing is staying. :dontknow:
God's blessing, James
Hi James
you think like I do ! i also wondered about this very thing
and the best example I found for an answer , because I looked and searched
was Paul
on the road to Damascus , He was seeing because he thought he was doing God a service , but he was Blind to the Truth and whaen Jesus met him on the road Jesus being the Truth way and Life , he was stuck down Blind! by the Light
I thought that answered the pharrisees question in John 9 very well , being that Saul / Paul was a pharissee and levite as well and on the killing end of the ministration of death the Law of Moses the traditional and outward show the Law , that is how he could plainly explain to us in Romans his experiences in the Lord and how Paul learned obedience though the things he suffered for Jesus Christ ..
I hope I was able to explain this right ?
I get excited and mess up rushing through , my mind works faster than my fingers typing lol .. :mblush: it helped me to understand seeing Sauls / Pauls experience
to recive sight the Lord appointed Ananias to help Paul see again when he was stuck with blindness by the Light of Christ and lost sight , he would be healed and see again only see right this time :HeartThrob:
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought [him] into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Amen Rose.
James for me..
Those who Thought they SAW were leading the Blind into a Ditch...as what Rosie has shared , Likened to the Pharisee\levite Saul\Paul
Rom 2:19 And
art confident that thou
thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Christ came to HEAL the Blind, the Spiritual Physician.
Those who thought they saw ,ONLY saw the semblence of the REALITY it spoke OF.
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Therefore Christ came to HEAL the eyes OF THE BLIND BY Blinding those who thought they SAW, AS with SAUL, the healing of EYESALVE which again IS CHRIST
,
Very good! There's a famous ice cream place in St. Louis called Ted Drewe's...an old family owned business. On their TV commercials, old Mr. Drewe says, "it really is good, guys" :bigGrin: :thumbsup:. God's blessing, Js.
There's very few things (if anything) that I'm comfortable saying I really understand completely...."a glass darkly"...
Ice cream..You say Ice cream James...Ok, Mines a double vanilla , Pecan and toffee mix , Heavy on the nuts, topped with Maple syrup
Just to let you guys Know..Maple syrup is Not Big In the UK, I love it, but only in its true form
Once went to share a Meal with a Couple of Texans..who Had your Food imported , anyways , they gave us this Ketchup for the Burgers they made.....MAN, was it awful....just too sweet for the British tooth..I had to swill it down with Coke, it made coke taste like water....
anyways James...Double Up bro..and dont forget the wafers. :icon_flower:
I have always wondered about these verses ??
anyone care help out ?
the ones that sleep in Jesus are with GOD ???
the word prevent , get there any sooneror ahead of than those asleep/dead in Christ ? because the dead rise first , I know that Paul said death was working in Him while life was working in those whom he preached/ministered to?
help? I am not able to simmplify this at all
what does the Christan Bible say bro ? :msealed:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
rosie, i'm glad we do think alike! thanks for asking about the scrip...i think this is a very interesting translation...it says;
For this we are saying to you by the authority of the Master's Word, that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence [at the beginning of the Last Age], shall by no means surpass those who have fallen asleep. For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed One will first rise up. Then after that, we who are alive and surviving, will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together with the Master. Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one another with these words! I Thes. 4:15-18
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2009, 07:36:07 PM
John 6:64-65; ..there are some of you who don't believe...For this reason I have declared to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted to him by the Father.
To me, this connects to a recent discussion wrt Jesus' use of parables so everyone could understand, etc.....I just don't see it that way. I don't have the total explanation/revelation for it, but I believe God reveals His truths when and to whom He pleases, and as it fits His overall plan...while at the same time, requiring us to seek out matters, study to show ourselves approved, walk in the light as He is in the light, present our bodies as a living sacrifice, etc...Some were apparently given the gift to see, some not...AT THAT TIME...not that they will never see.
Thomas Kissinger writes in his Noble Berean and The Glory of God and The Honor of Kings books, it is God's glory to conceal a matter, reveal it as He chooses, including to those who are "seeking out a matter". And apparently, as stated above, some are granted belief (in this age), and others are not. The good news IMO about that is below;
John 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God :notworthy: [Isa. 54:13]. www.christianbiblesociety.org.
God's blessing, James.
A couple of things. I know from personal experience that God definitely can and does reveal even to those who are not necessarily seeking in a certain direction. UR was revealed to me when I wasn't looking for it... (Which is part of the reason I believe it came from the H.S.)
Then there's the apostle Paul's experience...
What happened to fireinfolding? I notice all her posts are missing...not usually a good sign.
Fire F is fine Doc ,no worries :icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2009, 05:00:39 AM
rosie, i'm glad we do think alike! thanks for asking about the scrip...i think this is a very interesting translation...it says;
For this we are saying to you by the authority of the Master's Word, that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence [at the beginning of the Last Age], shall by no means surpass those who have fallen asleep. For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed One will first rise up. Then after that, we who are alive and surviving, will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together with the Master. Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one another with these words! I Thes. 4:15-18
God's blessing, James.
I see the symbolic refferense of clouds as witnesses [ we are hid in Him ] than from that point on ?
I still have some questions with these few verses though ?
help ?
thanks Jabcat , for the Christian translation , i sure need to dig in deeper to see better love rose :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2009, 09:06:01 PM
Does anyone have any insight into this? With the TCB being extremely literal and everyday language, I still didn't quite this...probably just missing the spiritual insight...can anyone help?
This is the account of Jesus healing the blind man, that everyone thought was blind because he'd done something wrong...the Pharisees became involved of course, and here's the part I'm not getting exactly...
John 9:39-41....Then Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing; and those who do observe, might become blind." Now those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?" Yesu said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no wrongdoing; yet since you say, "We can observe", your wrongdoing is staying. :dontknow:
God's blessing, James
I really love this translation of this passage bud!!
Then Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing For me, this is Gentiles . . .they don't observe the reality of Christ, but when he took on the judgement of the world, they became grafted in.
and those who do observe, might become blind This is speaking of the religious that did nothing "but" observe and their observations birthed judgment and law enforcment. This is also touching on another thread today speaking of the tares . . .Christ took that which was meant for us (death) and instead gave us which was intended for him (righteousness) the fact that those that have come into Christ CANNOT sin . .. is saying we should be blind to the tares within us . .blind to the fact that we're not perfect and ONLY see that we are perfected.
Now those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?" Yesu said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no wrongdoing; yet since you say, "We can observe", your wrongdoing is staying.Because they lived by their knowledge and observance of the law, they declared themselves as seeing. But the blood causes you to be blind to the faults of others . .this is why it's now possible to love your enemies. You're blinded by their offences. It's all in what perspective you choose to walk in.
Just my observations
QuoteThen Yesu said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who don't observe, might be observing For me, this is Gentiles
Nice abservation Nat
QuoteBecause they lived by their knowledge and observance of the law, they declared themselves as seeing. But the blood causes you to be blind to the faults of others . .this is why it's now possible to love your enemies. You're blinded by their offences. It's all in what perspective you choose to walk in.
Just my observations
That was Really good Nate :icon_flower:
we judge according to the flesh that is how the pharrisses judged
caught in the act and ready to STONE ! accuse whom ever they felt to condemn , seeingthemselves above the law so how ?
they were the ones to be judged [princes]
Jesus said he he judged no man , but if he judged his judgment was just [righteous judgment ] Jesus judged the spirit in a man maybe ?
those who showed no mercy did not obtain mercy
making them Blind to the Love of God
Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat 23:24
you blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
little things they done were nothing compared to the BIG STUFF!
Jesus was pointing out to them ..
love rose :HeartThrob:
Yes, yes YES!! They were blind all right, but to the wrong thing. They were blind to the Truth Christ was trying to convey. The fact that their minds convinced them of seeing, actually caused them to be blind . . .that's what the mind does . . .it veils the truth . . .that's hows come I pound on it so much . .it's destructive in nature, not something to trifle with as it is an addiciton in and of itself. It's a leach. It's very life is to attach itself to any living form of Christ and suck the life out of it until all that's left is the shell of what it once was.
"You search the Scriptures because in them YOU THINK . . ." Truth does not come by way of reason, only by way of revelation from the Father through relationship with the Son. Flowery words? Perhaps . .but nectar nonetheless.
Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.
The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2009, 11:40:32 PM
Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.
The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..
BINGO!!
(oh, you guys use that slang in England? It means DEAD ON BRO . .or ABSOLUTELY . . .it's also a card and chip game the Catholics play in the beer tent.) :laughing7:
I believe the UK phraseology would be "spot-on!" :thumbsup:
THERE'S A LOT OF GOOOOOD THINGS HERE...I HOPE YOU'LL REALLY READ THIS AND MEDITATE UPON IT....THEN COMMENTS/REVELATIONS?
John 12:37-40 Yet while He had done so many signs in front of them, they weren't believing in Him, so that the word of the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled, when he said, "Master, who has believed the news that was heard from us; and to whom has the arm of the Master been revealed?" [Isa. 53:1], For this reason, they couldn't believe, because Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes, and calloused their hearts; so they shall not notice with their eyes, and comprehend with their hearts, and turn, so I will heal them" [Isa. 6:10]
John 12:46-48 I have come into the world as a Light, so that whoever is believing in Me, shall not stay in darkness, Now whoever hears My Declarations and doesn't maintain them, I'm not judging him, for I didn't come to judge the world, but to save the world [from Destruction]. Whoever is rejecting Me and doesn't accept My Declarations, has something that is going to judge him; the Word that I spoke; that will judge him on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age].
Eyes blinded...Yesu not come to judge...however,
John 12:31 states; judgment is now upon this world [John 3:19, 9:39]; the chief of this world will now be thrown out [John 16:7-11].
and this beautiful verse...not crucifixion alone, but resurrection? As far as I know, I've never seen this translated this way before...and the TCB is supposedly the most literal/accurate to the Koine Greek.........
John 12:32 Now when I am elevated out of the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
Praise God for His Word! God's blessing, James.
Read this this morning...
"Stop letting your hearts be disturbed! You must be continually believing God, and be continually believing in Me! In My Father's house there are places for many to stay. Otherwise, I definitely wouldn't have told you that I am going away to make a place ready for you, would I? Now if I go away and make a place ready for you, I'm going to come again, and will take you along with Myself; so that where I am, you shall be also. John 14:1-3, The Christian Bible
Related to end time events ("doomsday")? Orthodox Heaven? Connected to 70 AD since Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews and He was speaking to His disciples?
Even the website is a learning point...
http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml
QuoteMoreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek. However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek. Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
QuoteSo, for over a century now, scholars have known that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible wasn't written in the Classical Greek of Aristotle like most of the other ancient Greek literature. There is absolutely no controversy about this any longer – scholars are in universal agreement that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in everyday Koine Greek, the common language used by the people throughout the Roman Empire during the First Century A.D.
That would mean classical Greek can't be used to verify words like aion aionios.
Another great page to read: What exactly is the name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit?
http://christianbiblesociety.org/names.shtml
QuoteJohn 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God [Isa. 54:13].
I would like some help with understanding the above quote from your secon post jabcat.
If you are not drawn in this lifetime you are "lost" (I know... not the correct wording)?
Are the "lost" the ones that are raised on "the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]."?
Is the Last Day:
- the last day of the last age. So at the very very end of ages. -> 24 hours
- just another name for the Last Age -> could 1000's of years
I guess the "lost" get some corrective punishment/teaching.
If a day is just a day then the correctional phase is very short of duration.
Comments?
I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture. Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:? If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now. My :2c:.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2009, 07:25:22 PM
Even the website is a learning point...
http://christianbiblesociety.org/gdisc.shtml
QuoteMoreover, in 1611 the KJV translators of the Bible followed the syntax of Classical Greek. However, we now know that the language of the New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek, because it is Koine Greek. Plus, make no mistake – this makes a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
QuoteSo, for over a century now, scholars have known that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible wasn't written in the Classical Greek of Aristotle like most of the other ancient Greek literature. There is absolutely no controversy about this any longer – scholars are in universal agreement that the original New Contract Writings ("New Testament") portion of the Bible was written in everyday Koine Greek, the common language used by the people throughout the Roman Empire during the First Century A.D.
That would mean classical Greek can't be used to verify words like aion aionios.
Another great page to read: What exactly is the name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit?
http://christianbiblesociety.org/names.shtml
I looked at the second article. Interesting and informative, although they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.
At the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name. I do think our traditional English pronunciation
does kinda suck though... :mblush:
Quote from: Doc on February 04, 2009, 01:11:52 AM
I looked at the second article. Interesting and informative, although they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.
At the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name.
I agree with that...I
also personally feel the following, explained in this excerpt from a post I made last night on another thread..
"
Although I feel the same way (pertaining to the other thread), I also often slip and use words I really don't believe in. In the Forward of The Christian Bible, there's a list of about 100 words that aren't used in the translation....does this save or lose mine or anyone else's soul, or should it be a source of conflict or condemnation? I think not! However, I personally find it very interesting to know more the accurate origins of the words/terms, and especially their meanings...some of it for me has to do with being called out of churchianity and my desire to bring with me as little of it as possible."
Doc,
Quotealthough they took it to some unnecessarily legalistic conclusions in places.
I had a hard time understanding tehir conclusion and just assumed it was my lack of knowledge.
The article is not by one of the translators.
Doc and jabcat,
QuoteAt the end of the day, I think it makes more difference to "Yesu" (and Father) whether or not we have a relationship with Him than how we pronounce his name.
I have mixed feelings about that. Firstly names often have a deeper meaning that goes lost in sloppy translation.
Another thing is the levels in the Bible. Some student with decent Greek knowledge can translate the NT.
At least it looks nice. Word for word things seem correct. The verse looks logical. Things get a little harder if the verses are rephrased in another part of the Bible. Then the translation should be in such a way the verses still means the same. Everything crossreferences to something else. A complex web. When 'talking' with someone of a forum the facial expressions, hand gestures and tone of the voice are missing. That's even a minus in the jokes section. It adds depth to the joke. Somehow the Bible uses the words in such a way there is body language of God in it. (also the case with the good human writers) But that body laguage is the first the vanishes when the translation fails to lock the 'feeling' of words.
Maybe Jesus, Yesu, Yesuha (lets call him Freddy...) isn't the best example of this but if you start with a simple name where does it end? It quickly turns into doctrine of men. Look at the KJV. A poetic masterpiece (for its time) As UR is concerned it only/mainly translated 2 words the wrong way. Most of the time the translation looks good within the verse. So what's the fuss about? The other 99.9% is translated correctly. It's like a legal document. One wrongly placed comma can make a huge difference. For a good example look at the "Women Speakers" article.
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 12:58:40 AM
I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture. Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:? If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now. My :2c:.
Can't say I disagree with your conclusion.
Does that automatically mean that "The Last Day" is just another name for "Last Age"
I wrote 'name' because they are written with caps. A bit like lord/Lord. son/Son
I'll look at the women's speaker thing again...for an example of what you're talking about, look at my sentence in my post to Doc; "I personally feel this way".... I was really trying to say I basically agreed with Doc, but then also trying to say, "but I also/further feel the way I'm about to show in the excerpt that follows...the words are also very important to me"....but what I realize I actually wrote was "I personally feel this way", which in retrospect, sounds like I'm not bringing anything further to the discussion as to how I feel about the use of words...maybe re-read the quotation part of my post now in the framework of words and how they're used are extremely important to me...I bet the failure to communicate what we really mean happens thousands/millions of times a day, especially on discussion boards.
ah....communication.
I went back and modified my previous post we're addressing, and I think now it makes more sense.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 08:12:07 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 12:58:40 AM
I do want others to comment, but this strikes a chord with me...I don't believe everyone at death just sort of sweetly float heavenward and all is instantly forgiven like some are saying. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that fitting with scripture. Could that be our carnal mind's wishful thinking and creating our own doctrine that feels good :dontknow:? If I'm wrong, great, but I don't see that fitting the whole context of scripture right now. My :2c:.
Can't say I disagree with your conclusion.
Does that automatically mean that "The Last Day" is just another name for "Last Age"
I wrote 'name' because they are written with caps. A bit like lord/Lord. son/Son
I tend to think so, but I may be missing something...for one thing, I've read there are yet to be
many ages :dontknow:. I WONDER...if the CB translators filtered this s/w through
their lense and
interpreted it as
last as opposed to THE Age or Age of Ages, which I've read is the
greatest age, if not necessarily the last. I'm going to check the greek words on that and get back on this.
it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean? I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 08:15:11 AM
I'll look at the women's speaker thing again...for an example of what you're talking about, look at my sentence in my post to Doc; "I personally feel this way".... I was really trying to say I basically agreed with Doc, but then also trying to say, "but I also/further feel the way I'm about to show in the excerpt that follows...the words are also very important to me"....but what I realize I actually wrote was "I personally feel this way", which in retrospect, sounds like I'm not bringing anything further to the discussion as to how I feel about the use of words...maybe re-read the quotation part of my post now in the framework of words and how they're used are extremely important to me...I bet the failure to communicate what we really mean happens thousands/millions of times a day, especially on discussion boards.
ah....communication.
I went back and modified my post...makes more sense.
The communication failure seems to be on my side. Likely due to the longwinded answer that looks like I'm debunking your claim. So the short answer:
I agree with you and Doc that we won't be doomed because of wrong spelling.
But I also added that, IMO, the translators must take great care not to use this "doesn't really matter" logic to often because it can wreck the whole message.
I agree, and I think it extremely matters...for instance, I would tend to read "The Message" only as "light" reading, not expecting to really get the meat...in that regard, and along with what you're saying, and also, something that I remember Martin saying once...EVERY word (original) came out of the mouth of God, so it carries substance we can't even imagine. My :2c:.
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 08:28:02 AM
it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean? I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......
I don't know if I can apply this kind of logic to Greek but:
- In the day of Jesus means more like the generation of Jesus.
- The days of Abraham doesn't mean he lived only a few days or the verse is going to state his lifespan in days instead of years.
- In the days of the dinosaur means the whole period that species walked the earth.
So perhaps "The Day" is just as strechable as the Hebrew yom or the Greek aion/age ?
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 08:28:02 AM
it looks like the greek actually is "Last Day"...OK, so Bible scholars, what does that mean? I think orthodoxy says it's "resurrection, judgment day, then heaven or hell..that's it...the "last day"......
Seven days In a week, the last day refers to the Eigth day, or New Beginnings, which if ya Think, Is the
FIRST day of the following week as well,
The first Day,
The Third day ,
The Sabbath Day(7) , The Eighth day and The Last\Great day\ AND
To Day are synoumous...THEY ARE A ***********************WHO******************************* :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: FIRST THE SHADOW SHOWN IN THE old..THEN..WELL YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT BY NOW.
Lev 12:3 And in the
eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Note the Feasts of the LORD in Levicticus
Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the
eighth day shall be an
holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an
offering made by fire unto the LORD: it [is] a
solemn assembly; [and] ye shall do no servile work [therein]. 2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the
first [day] of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the
porch of the LORD: so they
sanctified the house of the LORD in
eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end. Neh 8:18 Also
day by day, from the
first day unto the last day, he read in the
book of the law of God. And they
kept the feast seven days; and on the
eighth day [was] a solemn assembly, according unto the manner. This is that LAST DAY MENTIONED IN THE NEW
t 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and
circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
Christ is this very LAST DAY( eighth day as is HE is the First Day , TO DAY, THE Third day, The Seventh day, The Eight DAY, AND THE LAST DAY, also known as the Great DAY...
Jhn 7:37 In the
last day, that
great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying,
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink Jhn 7:38 He that
believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his
belly shall flow rivers of living water. Jhn 7:39 (But this
spake he of the Spirit, which they that
believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost
was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Are we not raised with him on that Very DAY, Tis Likened to the THIRD DAY,which ***is***the First day which these things BE DONE
Lev 23:7 In the
first day ye shall have an
holy convocation: ye shall do
no servile work therein. Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the
first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the
eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.
The First day\THIRD DAY....Risen of the **Son***?
r 16:2 And very early in the morning the
first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the
rising of the sun.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this,
to day is the
third day since these things were done
If we Consider the DAY being more of a WHO, oppossed to a time span , striving to fit in in just when such event will unfold, and begin to see this as NOW...
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him,
This day is
salvation come to this
house, forsomuch as
he also is a son of Abraham. A day is Likened to a 1000yrs...This day TOO, is Christ... the scripture testify to HIM, he being the context of all of it.
we move from generation to generation ,( BOTH ages TESTIFYING TO HIM)the AGE of Darkness, as ONE under LAW,likened also to a Child or Babe, moving from DEATH to LIFE,as a SON or heir, living in the LIGHT of DAY in HIM who is LIFE.
Gen 1:5 And
God called the light Day, and the
darkness he called Night. And the
evening and the morning were the first day. :icon_flower:
Is that Last Day the start of the kingdom of Father or Son?
Personally I think Sons kingdom.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 02:21:40 PM
Is that Last Day the start of the kingdom of Father or Son?
Personally I think Sons kingdom.
Yes ww..spot on :icon_flower:
but here lays another contented issue...
some are waiting for a Future Kingdom ,while some of us SEE it within US..as In, TO DAY IS THE SALVATION of your souls. :icon_flower:
And that kingdom ends when you die?
Then you sorta step out of the Sons kingdom in that of Father?
If so there are 2 kingdoms simultainiously?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 04:39:34 PM
And that kingdom ends when you die?
Then you sorta step out of the Sons kingdom in that of Father?
If so there are 2 kingdoms simultainiously?
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection, and
the life: he that
believeth in me, though
he were dead, yet shall he live: Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The concept of Eternal Life( live of this age of the Fleshy body we dwell in) for mine ,differs to that of Immortality..Having PUT ON Christ, the Corruptible has NOW put on Incorruption..if ya will, awaiting a time for a spirit Body
The Kingdom is a realm..the Realm( reign) is over DEATH itself...for me Death was deafeted at the Cross ..
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Therefore we too for those who believe , reign as Kings and Priest with him OVER DEATH....
two Kingdoms..mm, realms over two deaths?...cant quite see that bud.. :icon_flower:maybe others have somut to add there :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy
Christ is this very LAST DAY( eighth day as is HE is the First Day , TO DAY, THE Third day, The Seventh day, The Eight DAY, AND THE LAST DAY, also known as the Great DAY...
Something came to mind while reading this.
(Rev.1:11) I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. (Rev. 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
(Isaiah 41:4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord,
the first, and the last; I am he. I was thinking, does this mean Christ will come in the eighth day? Most look for Christ in the sixth day, which is in this generation. If it is in the eighth day, that would mean two thousand more years, that is if one believes in the return of Christ?
CHB
CHB,
Do you mind I pick the middle ground? :laughing7:
7th day.
Purely a feeling. Not one verse to back up my claim. Let that be said.
In a normal week the 7th day is the day of rest.
So my thought is that 7th day=Sabbath=day of rest=kingdom of Jesus.
8th day is a new start = kingdom of Father. -> not really a day but (timeless) eternity.
If I look on a Hebrew calendar the year 7000 (start of day 7) is still 231 year away.
Taffy,
I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you sure you replied to my message? :laughing7:
The only thought/answer I have on your message belongs in the 'soul sleep' thread. So I'll leave it at this; to avoid taking this thread off-topic. OT :Chinscratch: (whoops wrong joke. wrong site....)
Quote from: CHB on February 04, 2009, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: Taffy
Christ is this very LAST DAY( eighth day as is HE is the First Day , TO DAY, THE Third day, The Seventh day, The Eight DAY, AND THE LAST DAY, also known as the Great DAY...
Something came to mind while reading this.
(Rev.1:11) I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. (Rev. 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
(Isaiah 41:4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and the last; I am he.
I was thinking, does this mean Christ will come in the eighth day? Most look for Christ in the sixth day, which is in this generation. If it is in the eighth day, that would mean two thousand more years, that is if one believes in the return of Christ?
CHB
\
As it was in the days of Noah . .SO SHALL IT BE IN THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN . ..
Look up the definition for "Noah" and I think you'll have your answer to that one.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 06:29:15 PM
CHB,
Do you mind I pick the middle ground? :laughing7:
7th day.
Purely a feeling. Not one verse to back up my claim. Let that be said.
In a normal week the 7th day is the day of rest.
So my thought is that 7th day=Sabbath=day of rest=kingdom of Jesus.
8th day is a new start = kingdom of Father. -> not really a day but (timeless) eternity.
If I look on a Hebrew calendar the year 7000 (start of day 7) is still 231 year away.
Taffy,
I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you sure you replied to my message? :laughing7:
The only thought/answer I have on your message belongs in the 'soul sleep' thread. So I'll leave it at this; to avoid taking this thread off-topic. OT :Chinscratch: (whoops wrong joke. wrong site....)
Take a look at Johannes Kepler and Bishop James Ussher, two scientists who both independently put Adam's creation at around 4000 BC.
Perhaps Molly, it depends on your sources you choose to follow . .. most that I've come across state that it's been 6,000 years since Adam . .not 4 . . .and then if you adhere to the Jewish calendar, you'll get a different set of numbers as well.
But IF you see it in faith . . .with spiritual eyes . . .you can enter into the Sabbath day regardless of what the natural calendar is saying.
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
Perhaps Molly, it depends on your sources you choose to follow . .. most that I've come across state that it's been 6,000 years since Adam . .not 4 . . .and then if you adhere to the Jewish calendar, you'll get a different set of numbers as well.
But IF you see it in faith . . .with spiritual eyes . . .you can enter into the Sabbath day regardless of what the natural calendar is saying.
Yes, Kepler and Ussher would agree..around 6000 years have passed since Adam [4000+2009]--putting us in the 7th day.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 06:29:15 PM
CHB,
Do you mind I pick the middle ground? :laughing7:
7th day.
Purely a feeling. Not one verse to back up my claim. Let that be said.
In a normal week the 7th day is the day of rest.
So my thought is that 7th day=Sabbath=day of rest=kingdom of Jesus.
8th day is a new start = kingdom of Father. -> not really a day but (timeless) eternity.
If I look on a Hebrew calendar the year 7000 (start of day 7) is still 231 year away.
Taffy,
I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you sure you replied to my message? :laughing7:
The only thought/answer I have on your message belongs in the 'soul sleep' thread. So I'll leave it at this; to avoid taking this thread off-topic. OT :Chinscratch: (whoops wrong joke. wrong site....)
yes twas your post in reference to the Kingdom REALM BEING over death...
will the realm over death end...which is Indeed life....mmm :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
Perhaps Molly, it depends on your sources you choose to follow . .. most that I've come across state that it's been 6,000 years since Adam . .not 4 . . .and then if you adhere to the Jewish calendar, you'll get a different set of numbers as well.
But IF you see it in faith . . .with spiritual eyes . . .you can enter into the Sabbath day regardless of what the natural calendar is saying.
:thumbsup: The DAY irespective of it numerical difference = REST...Twas the simple point one was Making
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:59:37 PM
Take a look at Johannes Kepler and Bishop James Ussher, two scientists who both independently put Adam's creation at around 4000 BC.
I think that's already debunked by scholars. Bible scholars not by Darwinist or something similar.
The Bible genealogy is full of big holes.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:59:37 PM
Take a look at Johannes Kepler and Bishop James Ussher, two scientists who both independently put Adam's creation at around 4000 BC.
I think that's already debunked by scholars. Bible scholars not by Darwinist or something similar.
The Bible genealogy is full of big holes.
Kepler and Ussher were real scientists as opposed to the Darwinist flunkies who, no matter how many millions of generations, still prove that a fruit fly gives birth to a fruit fly. :laughing7:
It's interesting that independently that came to roughly the same date--you have to agree.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 07:31:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:59:37 PM
Take a look at Johannes Kepler and Bishop James Ussher, two scientists who both independently put Adam's creation at around 4000 BC.
I think that's already debunked by scholars. Bible scholars not by Darwinist or something similar.
The Bible genealogy is full of big holes.
Kepler and Ussher were real scientists as opposed to the Darwinist flunkies who, no matter how many millions of generations, still prove that a fruit fly gives birth to a fruit fly. :laughing7:
The fruit fly evolution story is a hoax. But that's off-topic now. Besides is wrote
not by Darwinists.
PC problems right no so I can't access 900MB of my stuff. I have a good article on the subject. For now a few links have to do. Not the best ones but a good start of what I mean.
http://www.marshallgenealogy.org/bible/genjesus.htm
http://www.marshallgenealogy.org/bible/matthew-luke.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:36:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 07:31:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 06:59:37 PM
Take a look at Johannes Kepler and Bishop James Ussher, two scientists who both independently put Adam's creation at around 4000 BC.
I think that's already debunked by scholars. Bible scholars not by Darwinist or something similar.
The Bible genealogy is full of big holes.
Kepler and Ussher were real scientists as opposed to the Darwinist flunkies who, no matter how many millions of generations, still prove that a fruit fly gives birth to a fruit fly. :laughing7:
The fruit fly evolution story is a hoax. But that's off-topic now. Besides is wrote not by Darwinists.
PC problems right no so I can't access 900MB of my stuff. I have a good article on the subject. For now a few links have to do. Not the best ones but a good start of what I mean.
http://www.marshallgenealogy.org/bible/genjesus.htm
http://www.marshallgenealogy.org/bible/matthew-luke.htm
What are those links showing? That Mathew and Luke give different genealogies? Sure they are different, one is father, one is mother. :dontknow:
? Many names show up in both rows.
Still looking for the article.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/pdfs/SampleChapter/10-2-321.pdf
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:48:46 PM
? Many names show up in both rows.
Yes, the important ones. He is the Lion of Judah. Both genealogies trace to David. He is the child of the promise. Both genealogies trace to Abraham.
Luke takes it all the way back to Adam--
the son of God.
To summarize the article. I hope I remember it correctly.
Only names of importance are mentioned.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/jesus/gospel%20comparison.htm
http://lordibelieve.org/time/KingDsr.pdf
EDIT
Finally found the article online.
http://lordibelieve.org/time/WHGreen.PDF
Google for "Primeval Chronology" and you'll get several similar links.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
To summarize the article. I hope I remember it correctly.
Only names of importance are mentioned.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/jesus/gospel%20comparison.htm
What I meant was that both mother and father descend from Abraham and David.
And, Luke (mother) takes it all the way back to Adam.
The genealogies are one from each parent, thus, two different genealogies.
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
To summarize the article. I hope I remember it correctly.
Only names of importance are mentioned.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/jesus/gospel%20comparison.htm
What I meant was that both mother and father descend from Abraham and David.
And, Luke (father) takes it all the way back to Adam.
The genealogies are one from each parent, thus, two different genealogies.
Molly,
All I can do is again point to this article. I have no illusion I can explain it better so I won't try.
http://lordibelieve.org/time/WHGreen.PDF
Of course you don't have to agree. Neither am I saying there are errors in the genealogies. All I'm saying is that quite a few people say that the genealogies are never meant to 'add up'
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
To summarize the article. I hope I remember it correctly.
Only names of importance are mentioned.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/jesus/gospel%20comparison.htm
What I meant was that both mother and father descend from Abraham and David.
And, Luke (mother) takes it all the way back to Adam.
The genealogies are one from each parent, thus, two different genealogies.
Molly,
All I can do is again point to this article. I have no illusion I can explain it better so I won't try.
http://lordibelieve.org/time/WHGreen.PDF
Of course you don't have to agree. Neither am I saying there are errors in the genealogies. All I'm saying is that quite a few people say that the genealogies are never meant to 'add up'
wow. Newton calculated the date of Adam's creation, too. :mshock: I should have figured that. Most of what Newton wrote was about theology.
Well, rather than read that guy you cited, I would trust Newton and Keppler, because they are both mathematicians, both precise, and when I look up, the earth is still orbiting the sun and when I look down, things I drop still fall. Seriously, if I had the time, I would read Newton and Kepler on this issue, first.
Calculating over a 5500 year period, three highly regarded researchers are coming in very close to each other, within a period of +- 8 years. How's that for margin of error?
James Ussher (1581–1656) was Archbishop of Armagh, the highest position in the Irish Anglican Church, a product of the Reformation in England. He was also a noted historian and Hebrew scholar, highly regarded throughout Britain, both by kings and revolutionaries. In 1650 and 1654 he published his magnum opus, The Annals of the World,1 a 1,300-page tome in Latin on a history of the world covering every major event from the time of Creation to AD 70. In this, he calculated the date of creation at
23 October 4004 BC, and this is what he is best known for today.
Ussher's creation date has become a figure of fun.
However, it is a well-kept secret that some great scientists also calculated creation dates very close to Ussher's. For example, Johannes Kepler (1571–1630), who formulated the laws of planetary motion, calculated a creation date of 3992 BC. Also, Sir Isaac Newton (1643–1727) is widely regarded as the greatest scientist of all time, but he wrote more on biblical history, and vigorously defended a creation about 4,000 BC.http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v26/i1/archbishop.asp
When die I'll ask around for you Molly :-)
What about the Hebrew calendar? They are at 5769. Quite serious people too...
All that said your scientics do not contradict with the articles I quoted.
The articles just mention there are overlaps and holes. Those holes have a unknow timespan.
Could be 100 years. But also 0 years. So adding up could give the perfect result or not.
But totally independant calculations are a diffrent matter.
(Civilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
QuoteCivilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
Can you give me a link to that? I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.
I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.
I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.
Mmm, tried to lie my way out of it. Caught again :laughing7:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
There are several definitions for civilization. If you take writing as the definition then it dates back to 3500 BC
Argiculture takes it back to 5300BC.
I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Sure. WW and I have been discussing the translation of The Christian Bible of "The Last Day" here http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4194.msg46724#msg46724 and looking for input...I've questioned the Christian Bible's translation of it being THE LAST day/age, wondering if that's their interpretation that it's the LAST one, rather than the GREATEST one, i.e., Ages of Ages...just not sure. But here's what the CB says.
Gal. 1:5 and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages! Amen ["let it be true"]!
Matthew 25:46 Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."
Romans 16:26 yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 09:39:14 PM
I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Sure. WW and I have been discussing the translation of The Christian Bible of "The Last Day" here http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4194.msg46724#msg46724 and looking for input...I've questioned the Christian Bible's translation of it being THE LAST day/age, wondering if that's their interpretation that it's the LAST one, rather than the GREATEST one, i.e., Ages of Ages...just not sure. But here's what the CB says.
Gal. 1:5 and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages! Amen ["let it be true"]!
Matthew 25:46 Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."
Romans 16:26 yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,
Punishment Unto Correction, Judgment unto life........JUDGMENT is Righteous Judgment,tis a WHITE throne..not a Black one.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 09:35:49 PM
Mmm, tried to lie my way out of it. Caught again :laughing7:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
There are several definitions for civilization. If you take writing as the definition then it dates back to 3500 BC
Argiculture takes it back to 5300BC.
ha!
But can you date modern irrigation to 5300BC? A link?
Because God gave Adam modern irrigation farming, too.
You need that for modern civilization, especially in the desert...
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground...--Gen 2
BOT (back on topic)
QuoteJohn 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God [Isa. 54:13].
Just thought about the following. Likely not relevant. But I usually don't care about such futilities :laughing7:
And there was evening [Erev: chaos] and there was morning [Boker: order, clarity], a fifth day. Again a climb in the level of order of life on earth, erev giving way to boker.
If the last day is the daytime part of the day it could also be read as "the last order" or "end of chaos"
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 10:17:50 PM
BOT (back on topic)
QuoteJohn 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God [Isa. 54:13].
Just thought about the following. Likely not relevant. But I usually don't care about such futilities :laughing7:
And there was evening [Erev: chaos] and there was morning [Boker: order, clarity], a fifth day. Again a climb in the level of order of life on earth, erev giving way to boker.
If the last day is the daytime part of the day it could also be read as "the last order" or "end of chaos"
yes--that's too cool!! And an end to those folks who like to create chaos so they can bring their own order out of it. No more chaos. No more night.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. --Rev 21
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 10:17:50 PM
BOT (back on topic)
QuoteJohn 6:43,44; ...You must not be grumbling with one another! No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the Last Day [the Day of the Last Age]. It has been written in the Prophets, "and they will all be taught by God [Isa. 54:13].
Just thought about the following. Likely not relevant. But I usually don't care about such futilities :laughing7:
And there was evening [Erev: chaos] and there was morning [Boker: order, clarity], a fifth day. Again a climb in the level of order of life on earth, erev giving way to boker.
If the last day is the daytime part of the day it could also be read as "the last order" or "end of chaos"
yes--that's too cool!! And an end to those folks who like to create chaos so they can bring their own order out of it. No more chaos. No more night.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
--Rev 21
Kinda like moving from DARKNESS to Light....Night to day..evil to Good.......Death to Life..old C to new C....
gee I sound Like a recor on rewind... :icon_flower:
I wonder what 'no night' means.
No more romantic sunsets or....
25 And the gates shall never be shut anymore because there is no Erev=chaos=danger to keep outside.
Meaning a perfect world in and outside of the city.
Edit: That contradics verse 23 that states there is no sun because God is light now.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 10:29:10 PM
I wonder what 'no night' means.
No more romantic sunsets or....
25 And the gates shall never be shut anymore because there is no Erev=chaos=danger to keep outside.
dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth..,...one can speak from the grave...yaDONT have to be LITERALLY dead to be there :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 10:32:42 PM
dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth
But only for people with braces I assume because hell has bars of iron. :reachout:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 10:35:55 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 04, 2009, 10:32:42 PM
dya Know the Gates of hell can equally mean..the Lips of your mouth
But only for people with braces I assume because hell has bars of iron. :reachout:
Nah..not for folk who wear da braces....But for sure those BARS of Prison, speaking to those in Hades Maybe, dead but not knowing it :icon_flower:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 09:39:14 PM
I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Gal. 1:5 and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages! Amen ["let it be true"]!
Matthew 25:46 Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."
Romans 16:26 yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,
Does the Companion Reference Guide have some additional insightful information about those verses?
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2009, 11:40:32 PM
Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.
The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..
Dear Taffy,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about "they were dead to Him."
However . . .
the words, "carnally minded" are not in any Greek text.
Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
flesh is as you already know: sarx
disposition is: phronema
Mind is: nous
People might get the mistaken notion that you are saying "if you use your mind it will bring spiritual death." Or they might think you are saying "if you use your sinful mind you will die spiritually."
Neither is the case.
The disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God.
Just thought you'd like to know what others are thinking (not using their carnal mind of course).
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 11:46:04 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2009, 11:40:32 PM
Hence they were DEAD to HIM, For to be carnally MINDED , is DEATH.
The carnal MIND is enmity ( Hatred) ..
Dear Taffy,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about "they were dead to Him."
However . . .
the words, "carnally minded" are not in any Greek text.
Rom 8:6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
flesh is as you already know: sarx
disposition is: phronema
Mind is: nous
People might get the mistaken notion that you are saying "if you use your mind it will bring spiritual death." Or they might think you are saying "if you use your sinful mind you will die spiritually."
Neither is the case.
The disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God.
Just thought you'd like to know what others are thinking (not using their carnal mind of course).
No bro...relate the term carnal, elsewhere..makes as much sense to me in * to be of the Flesh *, (we in HIM being NOTof the flesh)..for the Fleshy Minded can not comprehend that which is above , tis Known as the WISDOM below for mine Bro, soulish wisdom....NOT comprehending HE and the WISDOM above....
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
So, That which dont see\hear remain In death..Hence..to be Carnally minded is DEATH ..the Carnal mind is enmity..Hatred toward the Truth....
such young babes in Christ suffered for their carnality..seeing only the wisdom below,and desiring at times to stay there
1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and
walk as men?
Desiring the ways of old, as were the Galatians......
QuoteThe disposition of the flesh is that it leads one away from God. That disposition makes one dead *to God* in that it make one not care about the things of God
Not Quite for mine Bro but Close
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is
not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be if ya wish..^ the disposition of the Flesh can not comprehend the ways OF HIM ,therefore DEAD to HIM ,Not able to KNow who HE IS......" :icon_flower:...DEAD in their Graves....Dead men walking....LET the ^^dead^^ BURY THE **DEAD**.......NOW HOW can the dead bury the Dead...?..more Mystical ways of the word aye bro?
To say it makes one not care for the ways of God, surely doesnt Hold, as for sure those in Moses seat CARED for the ways of the LAW, persecuting such folk endeavouring to UPHOLD IT.
If ya been around Tent for a few seasons and seen the times Ive posted this ..time and time again explaining it..youd know otherwise Bro :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 10:46:42 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2009, 09:39:14 PM
I was asked by PM how the Christian Bible translated these verses Here's my answer also posted here, as it fits this thread....
Gal. 1:5 and may God be glorified for the remaining ages [the present age and the Last Age' of the ages! Amen ["let it be true"]!
Matthew 25:46 Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."
Romans 16:26 yet now has been made apparent in accordance with the requirement of the God of the ages, and through the Writing of the Prophets, and has been made known to all the pagans to result in obedience by faith,
Does the Companion Reference Guide have some additional insightful information about those verses?
This won't be all inclusive, but a few notes from The Christian Bible Companion Guide. (WW, mailed a contact letter to CBsociety today).
They list several different variations/contexts;
aiwn(ion) the longest time period known in the Bible: the Gr. literally means a time period during which things "exist" in a "constant" state; the first age was from Adam to the flood; the present (second) age is from the flood to the destruction of this earth by fire; and the third (last) age is fro the creation of the new earth (Paradise) and has no end....[Jabcat says Mat. 12:32, 39, 40, 49, Mark 4:19 are a few examples of usage of this variation..]
aiwnoc twn aiwnwn (ionoston ionon) Age of the ages (Last)..period of THE UN-IF-BE-periods" literally, the most important age of the ages, which means; the Last Age....Eph. 3:21 "One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of the ages! [Jabcat says a few examples are Mat. 21:19, Mark 3:29, John 4:14, I Co. 8:13 2John 2. in us, and will be with us even to the Last Age]
Age (of/in the Last) of the ages AIWNIOC (ionios) Examples; Mat. 18:8 feet and to be thrown into the Fire of the Last Age!, Mat. 19:16, John 3:15,16 but shall be having life in the Last Age..
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
QuoteCivilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
Can you give me a link to that? I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.
I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.
I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.
If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves? From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 02:13:45 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
QuoteCivilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
Can you give me a link to that? I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.
I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.
I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.
If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves? From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?
There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.
Adam gets his own two chapters in the Bible and the sequence of his creation is all out of sorts with Genesis 1.
Then the rest of the Old Testament is about the generations of Adam within very specific parameters (that is, leading to Jesus).
Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:37:03 AM
Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?
well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally
minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal
mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
:icon_flower:
Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 02:34:10 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 02:13:45 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
QuoteCivilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
Can you give me a link to that? I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.
I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.
I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.
If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves? From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?
There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.
Yeah, I don't believe it does...I'm saying I wonder about the cave dwellers, the extinct animals (saber tooth tiger for instance), "prehistoric" man, etc...I wonder who/what these things were, not really "man", some sort of prior creation, ages before Adam, stuff going on for millinea
then the "chaos/earth
became without form and void"? This just interests me, and I think many Christians reject all that based on the young earth theory.."Adam/Eve, 6k years, everything else is lies" sort of thing...
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 04:44:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 02:34:10 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 02:13:45 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
QuoteCivilasations dating back to 5300 BC (and older) are found)
Can you give me a link to that? I'm trying to find the oldest known civilizations.
I'm not talking a bunch of neanderthals in caves making stick figures, either.
I'm talking about modern civilization--homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Adam.
If we're talking 6,000+ years to Adam and Eve, who were these goobers in the caves? From the "chaos", a prior age/creation?
There is no reason to believe that the age of the earth is equal to the creation of Adam.
Yeah, I don't believe it does...I'm saying I wonder about the cave dwellers, the extinct animals (saber tooth tiger for instance), "prehistoric" man, etc...I wonder who/what these things were, not really "man", some sort of prior creation, ages before Adam, stuff going on for millinea then the "chaos/earth became without form and void"? This just interests me, and I think many Christians reject all that based on the young earth theory.."Adam/Eve, 6k years, everything else is lies" sort of thing...
It is interesting and I don't have the answers lol.
We are told that Adam is subjected to futility [death] in hope that all of creation will be liberated into the glorious freedom of the sons of God...I assume that means life, no more death, no more predatory practices, lion lying down with the lamb sort of thing. I can see this as a physical thing (although I hear you spiritual folks). So is Adam, are we [in Christ], some type of deliverers of all creation?
Something happens between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1: 2. I don't think God would create something without form/chaos and empty/void--something rendered it to that state. It's like the timeline is all messed up.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. --Gen 1
Yep :thumbsup:
Jabcat, Molly,
I have an answer to the cave dweller question.
A few months ago I wanted to start a thread about the first chapters of Genesis. Because the interpretation in kinda unconventional (but not rejecting God). I PMed Martin about it but didn't recieve a reply yet.
Let me summarize it as: Genisis doesn't contradic science. Lots is based on translation errors/interpretation. Some things are of the same maginitude as the forever/age thing. Perhaps even bigger when speaking of snakes.
I can PM the summary. Yep it's a summary of a book I made for my own use. So none of the research is my own.
Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 05:12:00 AM
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
--Gen 1
Replenish meant to fill, not refill during the time of writing KJV.
All more recent Bibles, including KJV2000 translate it as fill.
QuoteSomething happens between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1: 2. I don't think God would create something without form/chaos and empty/void--something rendered it to that state. It's like the timeline is all messed up.
Gap theory?
The creation days are not all in chronological order. There is no "The 1st day" "The 2nd day"
But "day one" "day two". Days can overlap. Etc
hmmmm.....interesting. Wonder about replenish before the KJV...way before?
I personally think it would be an interesting study as long as it's as you say...within scripture, seeking understanding, revelatory interpretation, honoring the "God-breathed" aspect ,etc....I can't speak for Martin or the forum as a whole though, this is MY opinion...maybe Martin will be able to get back with you soon...
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 08:48:02 AM
I personally think it would be an interesting study as long as it's as you say...within scripture, seeking understanding, revelatory interpretation, honoring the "God-breathed" aspect ,etc....I can't speak for Martin or the forum as a whole though, this is MY opinion...maybe Martin will be able to get back with you soon...
IMO the view is honoring God just as much (or more) than the classical view. It are not just claims without explaining what led to that claim/conclusion. All based on the Hebrew texts.
But as said it's controversial. Bit like URists are heretics because they are no ETs
That word does mean to fill. It also means to replenish. I wonder why the KJV scholars picked the word replenish, unless they, too, felt it was the most appropriate for a variety of reasons.
But, we also see that Adam is given no such directive. He is set apart, fenced off, in the garden, and his directive is to dress and keep the garden, quite different from the 'subdue,' of Genesis 1, which implies more of a domination, 'treading down,' than a nurturing and tending. Adam is to be a farmer, 'to till the soil.'
There are other scriptures kicking about, which refer to a time of no Adam--
22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [Adam], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
--Jer 4
The hardest saying is : "Whoever doesn't hate his parents and even his own life, cannot be my disciple".
That is problematic in a way, but here's the Christian Bible translation...it may help.
Mat. 10:37 Whoever is fond of his father or mother above me, isn't worthy of Me; and whoever is fond of his son or dauther above Me, isn't worthy of me. 38 whoever isn't taking his stake and continually following after Me, isn't worthy of Me 39 Whoever finds his sentient being [his life], will destroy it [in the Destruction]; and whoever destroys his sentient being on My account will find it [alive in the Last Age]
God's blessing, James.
What version did you quote from B_T?
I checked a dozen versions and they all sound similar to the one Jabcat quoted.
No 'hate' in any of those versions.
Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient? This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"
Hebrews 3:12 and onward for several verses (in part).....You must be continually looking out, brothers and sisters, so that there won't be at any time in any of you a wicked, unbelieving heart, in withdrawing from the living God! ....so that none of you might be hardened by the enticement of wrongdoing!....Today if you hear His voice you must not harden your hearts as in the rebellion!... For who was it that rebelled when they heard him... Now with who was He disgusted for forty years? Wasn't it with those who did things that were wrong, whose carcasses fell in the wasteland? ....to those who were unpersuaded? So we observe that they weren't able to enter because of unbelief....For we too have had the Good Message delievered to us, just like they also did; but the Word they heard didn't benefit them, because it hadn't been blended together with faith by those who heard it. So then, we who are Believers are going to enter into that stopping [Promised land/Paradise of The Last Age], just as He has declared, "As I promised wih an oath in My anger, They will never enter into My stoppping", although His works had come into being at the foundation of the world....so then, since it is left over for some to enter into it, and those who formerly had the good message delivered to them, didn't enter because of their unpersuadableness.
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 10:37:57 PM
Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient? This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"
hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 10:37:57 PM
Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient? This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"
hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.
How about . . .it's not by your works that you enter into heaven . . .but it's believing in the one who finished the works on the cross and who has declared you righteous
Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2009, 10:37:57 PM
Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient? This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"
hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.
How about . . .it's not by your works that you enter into heaven . . .but it's believing in the one who finished the works on the cross and who has declared you righteous
:thumbsup:
you got any work done today via quakers bro... :happygrin:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
Musli Boy, :laughing7:
Don't ya dare to forget to answer my answer to Nathans answerrrrr :hithere:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 11:16:52 PM
Musli Boy, :laughing7:
Don't ya dare to forget to answer my answer to Nathans answerrrrr :hithere:
you Bud
soupy Boy to you :happygrin:
tis late matey..back atcha tomorrow :icon_flower:
I can preach grace, not by works, free gift of God ....and that's what I lean on and trust in....but just saying that doesn't seem to address those scriptures in Hebrews, as far as I can see...
This from WW does seem to address it IMO.... Quote: "I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That, wihin the context of it's only God's grace and power that's doing it in and through us, and Jesus' blood and resurrection which He brings us through to get there... as He gives us the faith to believe and trust in Him...i.e., being saved...
For many years I said "grace, grace, grace"....and it is...but IMO, there are things to be reconciled with that, and this Hebrews passage seems to me to be one of them...
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:37:03 AM
Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?
well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
:icon_flower:
Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:
But Taffy, ole buddy ole pal,
If you mean by "renewing of the mind" you mean a "renewing of the flesh" because that is what is have to be if the flesh is the mind, then that won't work.
I agree that there is a need for a renewal of the mind.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to
be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."
It doesn't say to be transformed by the renewing of the flesh. Me thinks yer version be cross-wired gent. Them translators had a wee bit too many pints of ale while they were working on that KJV me thinks.
Mind is not flesh. Now "carnal" has to do with the flesh.
Rather than saying "the disposition of the flesh is enmity toward God" we could say "the bent of the flesh . . ." ?
I asked bro. jabcat how the Christian Bible translates Matthew 25:46. He sent me this which I bolded:
Matthew 25:46 Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."
I think they are incorrect. But they believe there are only three ages so, according to them it makes sense.
However, if there are at least two ages to come as Paul states:
Eph 2:7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
Then the next eon/age to come would be the 1000 year age which is what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Because the disciples asked Him about the conclusion of this eon/age in 24:3 . . .
Mat 24:3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 02:37:03 AM
Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?
well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
:icon_flower:
Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:
But Taffy, ole buddy ole pal,
If you mean by "renewing of the mind" you mean a "renewing of the flesh" because that is what is have to be if the flesh is the mind, then that won't work.
I agree that there is a need for a renewal of the mind.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."
It doesn't say to be transformed by the renewing of the flesh. Me thinks yer version be cross-wired gent. Them translators had a wee bit too many pints of ale while they were working on that KJV me thinks.
Mind is not flesh. Now "carnal" has to do with the flesh.
Rather than saying "the disposition of the flesh is enmity toward God" we could say "the bent of the flesh . . ." ?
HI Bud...
Gee Tony..No I never said that or implied it....
ya asked is the flesh had NOTHING to do with the MIND...which obviously the scriptures show it does....
Glad Gracies Doing good dude.... :icon_flower:
Another part of the Hebrews piece from TCB; 4:11 So then, we should be diligent about entering into that stopping [from work with Him; the The Promised Land (the Paradise of the last Age)], so that no one might fall into the same example of unpersuadableness. 12 For God's Word is continually living and effective in operaton; it can cut much better than any two-edged sword; it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts....
INFO on Hebrews.....
"At the same time, Hebrews is a book with a degree of mystery about it. There are questions regarding the author, the addresses, the date it was written, and the occasion of the writing. Even the title "to [the] Hebrews" (pros ebraious) is questionable. Though this title can be traced back to the second century, it was likely not a part of the original letter.
Certainly one of the most debated questions about this book, and the principle one this article intends to study, is the authorship. Who wrote the anonymous Book of Hebrews? When this question is asked, Origen's (c. 185-254) well known statement is frequently given as an answer: "in truth God [alone] knows."[5] Numerous theories regarding the authorship have been advanced:[6] the apostle Paul; Silas, the companion of Paul (Acts 15:40); Aquila and Priscilla,[7] fellow tent makers with Paul and his trusted friends (Acts 18:2); Luke, the faithful friend and traveling companion of Paul (Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11); Barnabas, Paul's friend and fellow minister (Acts 13:2); Apollos, a gifted teacher and friend of Paul (Acts 18:23-28); etc. Of the non-Pauline suggestions, Barnabas and Apollos are the most frequently proposed."
Hmmmm....
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 11:01:18 PM
Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.
A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...
Quote from: Doc on February 06, 2009, 11:33:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 11:01:18 PM
Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.
A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...
Well what makes one godly than ? we are declared righteous by Jesus
but what does that take for Jesus to this for us ?
when we recive the gift we also recive the strength to it seems accoding to Pauls words here .
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But
God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Doc on February 06, 2009, 11:33:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 11:01:18 PM
Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.
A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...
Are they still Christians then?
But IMO it doesn't really matter for that particular verse.
Ungodly is not written for nothing. So it must be a separate group that is different from the believers group.
RoseredQuoteWell what makes one godly than ? we are declared righteous by Jesus
That's what the verse says.
But if all are threated 100% equal what's the use of different groups. No harm in sinning either. All are threated equally good or bad. Somehow I think that's not true. At the end of times we are all in the same place/state.
But between now and then 'things will happen' based on what group you are in.
So I'm not talking about the end result; but the tools used to reach that endresult.
"You come like a lamb. But, don't forget you have a wolf inside you, as well. Look, can you find the force to enable these two quite opposite lives to live together in yourself? Listen carefully, this will not happen by itself. It is not enough just to think about it, to dream, to wait. At any moment, the wolf can devour the lamb. And you must learn what it means to become responsible. This is an exact science. "
1And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
2And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
3And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.
4And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
5That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
--Exodus 4
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2009, 01:14:11 AM
Quote from: Doc on February 06, 2009, 11:33:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 11:01:18 PM
Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.
A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...
Are they still Christians then?
But IMO it doesn't really matter for that particular verse.
Ungodly is not written for nothing. So it must be a separate group that is different from the believers group.
Rosered
QuoteWell what makes one godly than ? we are declared righteous by Jesus
That's what the verse says.
But if all are threated 100% equal what's the use of different groups. No harm in sinning either. All are threated equally good or bad. Somehow I think that's not true. At the end of times we are all in the same place/state.
But between now and then 'things will happen' based on what group you are in.
So I'm not talking about the end result; but the tools used to reach that endresult.
I tend to agree with your thoughts on this Tony
for differnt reasons and verses that sums this up
:HeartThrob:
The usual rendering of James 1:13 is "let no man say he is tempted of God, God tempts no man..."
In The Christian Bible, James 1:13 states "let no man say he is tested of God, God tests no man..."
I checked the greek in the Greek Interlinear, and the word is peirazo, which they translate as "tried"...as in "let no man say he is tried of God, God tries no man..."
The rest of the verse follows with God is not tempted (traditional)...tried (Interlinear)...tested (TCB) with evil/sin...
I figure God certainly does test us...try us, real similar... I don't believe He tempts us...
A definition I found for peirazo
to try whether a thing can be done
to attempt, endeavour
to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
to solicit to sin, to tempt
So, it seems it's the context, and looking at the whole big picture that helps determine the decision on how to translate the word...because it seems able to be translated as all 3; try, test, tempt...So I'm not sure why TCB translators chose "test"...it seems there are better choices in that particular verse.
Then copied from some earlier notes, there's basanos, basanismos, basanizo and basanistes in the NT for torment, torments or tormentor. Both the CLNT Keyword Concordance and Strong's Concordance state that the root word for torment, basanos, literally means a touchstone. This is a special stone that was used to test gold and silver for impurities or alloys. So, the basic meaning of these Greek words, correctly translated as torment, is testing by ordeal, which involves suffering and affliction and hardship.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Personally, from my level of understanding, as used in this verse I think tempt is better than try, and way better than test. I thought being tested is a big part of what this life is about...as we are grown in Him.
Another thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond? I think He would already know. Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things...so the whole "touchstone" concept...is He really "testing", or more so purifying through the basanismos...or what do you think that's about?
Hi JabMaster :thumbsup:
Passive, active are things this come to mind.
QuoteThe usual rendering of James 1:13 is "let no man say he is tempted of God, God tempts no man..."
QuoteIn The Christian Bible, James 1:13 states "let no man say he is tested of God, God tests no man..."
For me, tested/tempted/tried are the same. The verse verse just says God doesn't actively design traps that makes you sin.
So God doesn't send hordes of beautiful women that want to have quality time with you to test you marriage vows.
But He doesn't stop those woman. So He just stays passive when watching the test.
The woman are your personal touching stone.
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2009, 11:03:53 AM
Another thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond? I think He would already know. Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things...so the whole "touchstone" concept...is He really "testing", or more so purifying through the basanismos...or what do you think that's about?
I can't locate the verse as usual but it is in Revelation and is similar to:
"....Jesus and His angels
watched them them being tormented/tested....."
They are just
passively watching.
So who does the tormenting?
That depends of things that will turn this thread into another mud sling contest. So I'll not mention them.
QuoteAnother thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond? I think He would already know. Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things
It's just to collect things He can use against us in court. (and then shows mercy)
In the sense of: See I gave you 6000 years to prove your ways are good; but all you have to show is war and terror.
Jabcat, there are so many 'could haves' with God that it's not funny to eaven think about it.
He could have created nothing.
He could have created us directly in heaven.
He could have...
Hey WW...I guess I just really see tempt and test as 2 different things (or can be)....Tempt being more like, "hey, come over here and try this...c'mon, it won't hurt you"...and test being, "I want to see how you handle this stress, this situation"...maybe even a "come on, you can make it"...I don't know...I'll think about that some more
Also, is the verse "in the presence of the Lamb"? I don't know how theologically sound it really is, but I see that verse as "being in His direct presence will be torment until those in His presence (Lake of Fire) are cleansed and bow and proclaim" He is Master :dontknow:.
Wrt "could haves" with God, I was just looking at the alternate timeline(s) thread you were involved in last Fall...too much for me to get my mind around.
That's the one jabcat
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2009, 11:39:04 AM
Wrt "could haves" with God, I was just looking at the alternate timeline(s) thread you were involved in last Fall...too much for me to get my mind around.
With the alternative timelines you can just as well close TentMaker because then just anything can happen.
If a theory doesn't fit in this reality it can fit in another. Note: I'm not saying it can't be true.
QuoteHey WW...I guess I just really see tempt and test as 2 different things (or can be)....Tempt being more like, "hey, come over here and try this...c'mon, it won't hurt you"...and test being, "I want to see how you handle this stress, this situation"...maybe even a "come on, you can make it"...I don't know...I'll think about that some more
If we grab a dictionary you surely can prove me wrong. My point is that the effect is the same. A bit like being executed by a firing squad or electric share. Totally diffrent. But same result.
About your argument. Lemme explain with a scene from a movie.
Woman and an man have plans to marry. The woman want to make sure the man doesn't cheat. So she asks the help from a good looking female friend from office. Her task is to get the man intimate with the man.
Is the man tempted or tested? The man liked the looks of the co-worker. If he wasn't with his girfriend he certainly would have taken the bait. So he is tempted. Because he's offered why he likes. But he rejects the offer and thereby passing the test. He resists temptation. God perhaps doesn't actively design such a test but doesn't stop it.
Remember Job where satan cam to ask permission to tempt Job. God (=the girlfriend) just passively watched when satan (=co-worker) was tempting Job (=the man)
I'm aware the last example doesn't fit 100% but it still shows fairly well what my opinion is.
Read this today, there's a whole lot here to meditate on...
From The Christian Bible (1991) 2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers and sisters, you must be continually praying for us, so that the Master's [Yesu/Jesus] Word might be continually racing forward and be continually glorified, just as it is with you also,
2 and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!
I wrote to you in my letter not to be mingling with those who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse. It positively didn't mean with those of this world who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse, or those who are greedy and take things by force, or those who are idol worshipers, since to do that you would have to go out of the world. Yet it is a fact that I wrote to you not to be mingling with anyone who is being called a brother or sister, if that person is a person who is having nonmarital sexual intercourse, or a person who is greedy, or a person who is an idol worshiper, or a person who wounds with words, or a person who is a drunkard, or a person who takes things by force. You shouldn't even eat [at love feasts] with such a person. Because what responsibility do I have to judge outsiders [unbelievers]? Isn't it those who are inside [Believers] that you are to judge? Now God will judge the outsiders. You must expel the wicked person from among yourselves! I Corinthians 5:9-13
There is much written specifically to the Brethren.