The Christian Bible..."Hard Sayings", Things That Make You Say "Hmmmmm"

[WhiteWings]

Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient?  This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"

hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.

[Nathan]

Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient?  This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"

hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.

How about . . .it's not by your works that you enter into heaven . . .but it's believing in the one who finished the works on the cross and who has declared you righteous

[WhiteWings]

Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.

[Taffy]

Here's another "hard saying" from TCB... WW, how do you think this fits into one of your caption verses, about those that are disobedient?  This one....Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....Some of these things really do make me say "hmmmmm"

hmmmmm, hard one to answer.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Declares sounds like God waves His magic wand and all is fine. I don't think things are that easy...
I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"
That conclusion isn't purely from that verse, but from that verse combined with the whole concept of the balance of forgiving and punishing as I understand it.

How about . . .it's not by your works that you enter into heaven . . .but it's believing in the one who finished the works on the cross and who has declared you righteous

:thumbsup:
you got any work done today via quakers bro... :happygrin:



Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 
Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 
 
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

[WhiteWings]

Musli Boy,  :laughing7:

Don't ya dare to forget to answer my answer to Nathans answerrrrr  :hithere:

[Taffy]

Musli Boy,  :laughing7:

Don't ya dare to forget to answer my answer to Nathans answerrrrr  :hithere:

you Bud
soupy Boy to you :happygrin:

tis late matey..back atcha tomorrow :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

I can preach grace, not by works, free gift of God ....and that's what I lean on and trust in....but just saying that doesn't seem to address those scriptures in Hebrews, as far as I can see...

This from WW does seem to address it IMO....  Quote: "I think it's more like saying "You must be pure to enter heaven; you are not pure so I'll start the cleaning/teaching and I guarantee you will be pure enough to enter heaven someday"


That, wihin the context of it's only God's grace and power that's doing it in and through us, and Jesus' blood and resurrection which He brings us through to get there... as He gives us the faith to believe and trust in Him...i.e., being saved... 

For many years I said "grace, grace, grace"....and it is...but IMO, there are things to be reconciled with that, and this Hebrews passage seems to me to be one of them...

[Tony N]

Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?

well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

:icon_flower:

Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:

But Taffy, ole buddy ole pal,
If you mean by "renewing of the mind" you mean a "renewing of the flesh" because that is what is have to be if the flesh is the mind, then that won't work.
I agree that there is a need for a renewal of the mind.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

It doesn't say to be transformed by the renewing of the flesh. Me thinks yer version be cross-wired gent. Them translators had a wee bit too many pints of ale while they were working on that KJV me thinks.

Mind is not flesh. Now "carnal" has to do with the flesh.
Rather than saying "the disposition of the flesh is enmity toward God" we could say "the bent of the flesh . . ." ?

[Tony N]

I asked bro. jabcat how the Christian Bible translates Matthew 25:46. He sent me this which I bolded:

Matthew 25:46  Then these will go away into the Punishment of the Last Age [Destruction by the Fire of the Second Death], yet those who were just, into Life in the Last Age."

I think they are incorrect. But they believe there are only three ages so, according to them it makes sense.

However, if there are at least two ages to come as Paul states:

Eph 2:7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Then the next eon/age to come would be the 1000 year age which is what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Because the disciples asked Him about the conclusion of this eon/age in 24:3 . . .

Mat 24:3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?

[Taffy]

Taffy, what if the flesh has nothing to do with the mind?

well for a starters T..lets dispense of these :icon_flower:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

:icon_flower:

Maybe a Renewing of the MIND come the NEW C..is needed...As Indeed all that is , IS HIM...we sure dont glory in the Flesh. :icon_flower:

But Taffy, ole buddy ole pal,
If you mean by "renewing of the mind" you mean a "renewing of the flesh" because that is what is have to be if the flesh is the mind, then that won't work.
I agree that there is a need for a renewal of the mind.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

It doesn't say to be transformed by the renewing of the flesh. Me thinks yer version be cross-wired gent. Them translators had a wee bit too many pints of ale while they were working on that KJV me thinks.

Mind is not flesh. Now "carnal" has to do with the flesh.
Rather than saying "the disposition of the flesh is enmity toward God" we could say "the bent of the flesh . . ." ?

HI Bud...

Gee Tony..No I never said that or implied it....

ya asked is the flesh had NOTHING to do with the MIND...which obviously the scriptures show it does....



Glad Gracies Doing good dude.... :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Another part of the Hebrews piece from TCB;  4:11  So then, we should be diligent about entering into that stopping [from work with Him;  the The Promised Land (the Paradise of the last Age)], so that no one might fall into the same example of unpersuadableness.  12  For God's Word is continually living and effective in operaton;  it can cut much better than any two-edged sword;  it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective parts and their deepest inner parts....

INFO on Hebrews.....
"At the same time, Hebrews is a book with a degree of mystery about it. There are questions regarding the author, the addresses, the date it was written, and the occasion of the writing. Even the title "to [the] Hebrews" (pros ebraious) is questionable. Though this title can be traced back to the second century, it was likely not a part of the original letter.
Certainly one of the most debated questions about this book, and the principle one this article intends to study, is the authorship. Who wrote the anonymous Book of Hebrews? When this question is asked, Origen's (c. 185-254) well known statement is frequently given as an answer: "in truth God [alone] knows."[5] Numerous theories regarding the authorship have been advanced:[6] the apostle Paul; Silas, the companion of Paul (Acts 15:40); Aquila and Priscilla,[7] fellow tent makers with Paul and his trusted friends (Acts 18:2); Luke, the faithful friend and traveling companion of Paul (Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11); Barnabas, Paul's friend and fellow minister (Acts 13:2); Apollos, a gifted teacher and friend of Paul (Acts 18:23-28); etc. Of the non-Pauline suggestions, Barnabas and Apollos are the most frequently proposed."

Hmmmm....

[Doc]

Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.

A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...

[rosered]

Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.

A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...

  Well what makes one godly than ?  we  are declared righteous by Jesus
  but what does that take  for Jesus to this for us ?

  when we recive the gift we also recive the strength  to it seems accoding to Pauls words here .

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.


Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

:HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.

A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...

Are they still Christians then?

But IMO it doesn't really matter for that particular verse.
Ungodly is not written for nothing. So it must be a separate group that is different from the believers group.

Rosered

Well what makes one godly than ?  we  are declared righteous by Jesus

That's what the verse says.
But if all are threated 100% equal what's the use of different groups. No harm in sinning either. All are threated equally good or bad. Somehow I think that's not true. At the end of times we are all in the same place/state.
But between now and then 'things will happen' based on what group you are in.

So I'm not talking about the end result; but the tools used to reach that endresult.

[Molly]

"You come like a lamb.  But, don't forget you have a wolf inside you, as well.  Look, can you find the force to enable these two quite opposite lives to live together in yourself?  Listen carefully, this will not happen by itself.  It is not enough just to think about it, to dream, to wait.  At any moment, the wolf can devour the lamb.  And you must learn what it means to become responsible.  This is an exact science.  "




1And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

2And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.

3And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

4And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:

5That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.

--Exodus 4



Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

[rosered]

Doesn't make sense to me Nathan; because many of the ungodly are not Christians.
So they either don't believe at all, believe in pagan gods, or believe in a very twisted version of God.

A lot of Christians believe in a very twisted version of God as well...

Are they still Christians then?

But IMO it doesn't really matter for that particular verse.
Ungodly is not written for nothing. So it must be a separate group that is different from the believers group.

Rosered

Well what makes one godly than ?  we  are declared righteous by Jesus

That's what the verse says.
But if all are threated 100% equal what's the use of different groups. No harm in sinning either. All are threated equally good or bad. Somehow I think that's not true. At the end of times we are all in the same place/state.
But between now and then 'things will happen' based on what group you are in.

So I'm not talking about the end result; but the tools used to reach that endresult.

I tend to agree with your   thoughts on this  Tony
  for differnt  reasons and  verses  that sums this up
  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

The usual rendering of James 1:13 is "let no man say he is tempted of God, God tempts no man..."

In The Christian Bible, James 1:13 states "let no man say he is tested of God, God tests no man..."

I checked the greek in the Greek Interlinear, and the word is peirazo, which they translate as "tried"...as in "let no man say he is tried of God, God tries no man..."

The rest of the verse follows with God is not tempted (traditional)...tried (Interlinear)...tested (TCB) with evil/sin...

I figure God certainly does test us...try us, real similar... I don't believe He tempts us...

A definition I found for  peirazo

to try whether a thing can be done
to attempt, endeavour
to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
to solicit to sin, to tempt

So, it seems it's the context, and looking at the whole big picture that helps determine the decision on how to translate the word...because it seems able to be translated as all 3; try, test, tempt...So I'm not sure why TCB translators chose "test"...it seems there are better choices in that particular verse.

Then copied from some earlier notes, there's basanos, basanismos, basanizo and basanistes in the NT for torment, torments or tormentor. Both the CLNT Keyword Concordance and Strong's Concordance state that the root word for torment, basanos, literally means a touchstone. This is a special stone that was used to test gold and silver for impurities or alloys.  So, the basic meaning of these Greek words, correctly translated as torment, is testing by ordeal, which involves suffering and affliction and hardship.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  Personally, from my level of understanding, as used in this verse I think tempt is better than try, and way better than test.  I thought being tested is a big part of what this life is about...as we are grown in Him.

[jabcat]

Another thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond?  I think He would already know.  Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things...so the whole "touchstone" concept...is He really "testing", or more so purifying through the basanismos...or what do you think that's about?

[WhiteWings]

Hi JabMaster  :thumbsup:

Passive, active are things this come to mind.

The usual rendering of James 1:13 is "let no man say he is tempted of God, God tempts no man..."

In The Christian Bible, James 1:13 states "let no man say he is tested of God, God tests no man..."

For me, tested/tempted/tried are the same. The verse verse just says God doesn't actively design traps that makes you sin.
So God doesn't send hordes of beautiful women that want to have quality time with you to test you marriage vows.
But He doesn't stop those woman. So He just stays passive when watching the test.
The woman are your personal touching stone.

[WhiteWings]

Another thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond?  I think He would already know.  Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things...so the whole "touchstone" concept...is He really "testing", or more so purifying through the basanismos...or what do you think that's about?

I can't locate the verse as usual but it is in Revelation and is similar to:
"....Jesus and His angels watched them them being tormented/tested....."

They are just passively watching.

So who does the tormenting?
That depends of things that will turn this thread into another mud sling contest. So I'll not mention them.

[WhiteWings]

Another thought...does God really need to test us to see how we'll respond?  I think He would already know.  Maybe it's more for our learning and growth, rather than for Him to see how we'll handle things

It's just to collect things He can use against us in court. (and then shows mercy)
In the sense of: See I gave you 6000 years to prove your ways are good; but all you have to show is war and terror.

Jabcat, there are so many 'could haves' with God that it's not funny to eaven think about it.
He could have created nothing.
He could have created us directly in heaven.
He could have...

[jabcat]

Hey WW...I guess I just really see tempt and test as 2 different things (or can be)....Tempt being more like, "hey, come over here and try this...c'mon, it won't hurt you"...and test being, "I want to see how you handle this stress, this situation"...maybe even a "come on, you can make it"...I don't know...I'll think about that some more

Also, is the verse "in the presence of the Lamb"?  I don't know how theologically sound it really is, but I see that verse as "being in His direct presence will be torment until those in His presence (Lake of Fire) are cleansed and bow and proclaim" He is Master   :dontknow:.

Wrt "could haves" with God, I was just looking at the alternate timeline(s) thread you were involved in last Fall...too much for me to get my mind around.

[WhiteWings]

That's the one jabcat

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[WhiteWings]

Wrt "could haves" with God, I was just looking at the alternate timeline(s) thread you were involved in last Fall...too much for me to get my mind around.

With the alternative timelines you can just as well close TentMaker because then just anything can happen.
If a theory doesn't fit in this reality it can fit in another. Note: I'm not saying it can't be true.

Hey WW...I guess I just really see tempt and test as 2 different things (or can be)....Tempt being more like, "hey, come over here and try this...c'mon, it won't hurt you"...and test being, "I want to see how you handle this stress, this situation"...maybe even a "come on, you can make it"...I don't know...I'll think about that some more

If we grab a dictionary you surely can prove me wrong. My point is that the effect is the same. A bit like being executed by a firing squad or electric share. Totally diffrent. But same result.

About your argument. Lemme explain with a scene from a movie.
Woman and an man have plans to marry. The woman want to make sure the man doesn't cheat. So she asks the help from a good looking female friend from office. Her task is to get the man intimate with the man.
Is the man tempted or tested? The man liked the looks of the co-worker. If he wasn't with his girfriend he certainly would have taken the bait. So he is tempted. Because he's offered why he likes. But he rejects the offer and thereby passing the test. He resists temptation. God perhaps doesn't actively design such a test but doesn't stop it.
Remember Job where satan cam to ask permission to tempt Job. God (=the girlfriend) just passively watched when satan (=co-worker) was tempting Job (=the man)

I'm aware the last example doesn't fit 100% but it still shows fairly well what my opinion is.

[jabcat]

Read this today, there's a whole lot here to meditate on...

From The Christian Bible (1991)  2 Thessalonians 3:1  Finally, brothers and sisters, you must be continually praying for us, so that the Master's [Yesu/Jesus] Word might be continually racing forward and be continually glorified, just as it is with you also,

2 and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans;  for not everyone belongs to the Faith!