Should Church and state be separate?

[Molly]

We are talking about constitutional issues so citing things before the constitution is a different argument.

LOL  You don't have a clue what you are talking about.  You have everything backwards. You have no knowledge of history and you have no desire to learn.   You have no interest in freedom as was intended by our founders and by our constitution.  You are the one who wants to control, to control from a central government,  to control our children with atheism, paganism, scientism, witchcraft, humanism, statism, any foul thing as long as it's not Christianity.  

But the states are now recognizing that this has gone too far.  One of two things will happen, either the states will prevail, or the lights will go out.

Which one it is --that's not up to me.


2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

[Paul Hazelwood]

 You are the one who wants to control, to control from a central government,  to control our children with atheism, paganism, scientism, witchcraft, satanism, statism, any foul thing as long as it's not Christianity.  

Well, there is the problem for the most part, I have stated things to the contrary of what your saying.  You have admitted you want Christianity to control public schools so that will speak for itself no matter what you say.

I have no problems with a religion class in school so students can study the various beliefs that make up this great country.  Teach them all, including Christianity.

[Molly]

The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is the fundamental governing document of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, one of the 50 individual state governments that make up the United States of America. It was drafted by John Adams, Samuel Adams, and James Bowdoin during the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention between September 1 and October 30, 1779. Following approval by town meetings, the Constitution was ratified on June 15, 1780, became effective on October 25, 1780, and remains the oldest functioning written constitution in continuous effect in the world.

The Massachusetts Constitution was the last of the first set of the state constitutions to be written. Consequently, it was more sophisticated than many of the other documents. Among the improvements was the structure of the document itself: instead of just a listing of provisions, it had a structure of chapters, sections, and articles. This structure was replicated by the United States Constitution. It also had substantial influence on the subsequent revisions of many of the other state constitutions. The Massachusetts Constitution has four parts: a preamble, a declaration of rights, a description of the framework of government, and articles of amendment

--Wikipedia

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Article III. As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.

And the people of this commonwealth have also a right to, and do, invest their legislature with authority to enjoin upon all the subject an attendance upon the instructions of the public teachers aforesaid, at stated times and seasons, if there be any on whose instructions they can conscientiously and conveniently attend.

Provided, notwithstanding, That the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic, or religious societies, shall at all times have the exclusive right and electing their public teachers and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance.

And all moneys paid by the subject to the support of public worship and of public teachers aforesaid shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends; otherwise it may be paid toward the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said moneys are raised.

And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.

--The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 1780

[Paul Hazelwood]

And every denomination of Christians

Yes,  the word   "And"  meaning not exclusively of Christians.

[Molly]

And every denomination of Christians

Yes,  the word   "And"  meaning not exclusively of Christians.

LOL No it does not.  There were only Christians in those days.  It means 'And finally.'  It is stating the ending of the provisions of the article.

[Paul Hazelwood]

And every denomination of Christians

Yes,  the word   "And"  meaning not exclusively of Christians.

LOL No it does not.  There were only Christians in those days.  It means 'And finally.'  It is stating the ending of the provisions of the article.

It reads quite clearly, it makes provisions of religious freedom not exclusive to only Christians. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

The founders would be rolling over in their graves if they saw us today.

Yeah, you might be right,  I'll bet it would piss them right off that blacks are free in this country and we actually allow people to practice witchcraft and it be against the law for a good Christian to burn them to death.

Oh yeah, I'll bet they are rolling over.

[Molly]

The founders would be rolling over in their graves if they saw us today.

Yeah, you might be right,  I'll bet it would piss them right off that blacks are free in this country and we actually allow people to practice witchcraft and it be against the law for a good Christian to burn them to death.

Oh yeah, I'll bet they are rolling over.

You are making that statement based on nothing, as usual.  They would be delighted that blacks and women had the vote.  They were all about freedom--in Christ--which is the only place that freedom exists.

[Molly]

It reads quite clearly, it makes provisions of religious freedom not exclusive to only Christians.

It reads clearly alright--it is referring to 

towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision,

{That would be only Christians because that is all there was in Massachusetts in that day, and I'm sure they could not imagine otherwise.}

to make suitable provision to fund teachers and schools to teach

the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality

Which would be only Christian because no matter how you try to slice and dice and hide it, this is a Christian country founded by Christians for the benefit of Christians.

But, you can keep lying about history.  Find me one town, precinct, or parish that publically funded the teaching of witchcraft in 1780.

[Paul Hazelwood]

towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision,

Exactly, nothing specific to Christianity there.   

{That would be only Christians because that is all there was in Massachusetts in that day, and I'm sure they could not imagine otherwise.}

They imagined otherwise even if it meant they couldn't have everything the way they might have wanted it.

Which would be only Christian because no matter how you try to slice and dice and hide it, this is a Christian country founded by Christians for the benefit of Christians.

Well some think that,  that is why some fools thought it should be right to burn people alive if they thought they practiced witchcraft, but we understand that the freedoms that were intended had nothing to do with the exclusivity of Christians.  Such ridiculous nonsense that suggests that the true history of this country was to allow freedom for only Christians.  Further evidence of the lies of religion that should be opposed and actively is.   Thank goodness.

[Molly]

"An elective despotism was not the government we fought for, but one which should not only be founded on true free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among general bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits without being effectually checked and restrained by the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:163


"What has destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which has ever existed under the sun? The generalizing and concentrating all cares and powers into one body, no matter whether of the autocrats of Russia or France, or of the aristocrats of a Venetian Senate. And I do believe that if the Almighty has not decreed that man shall never be free (and it is blasphemy to believe it), that the secret will be found to be in the making himself the depository of the powers respecting himself, so far as he is competent to them, and delegating only what is beyond his competence by a synthetical process, to higher and higher orders of functionaries, so as to trust fewer and fewer powers in proportion as the trustees become more and more oligarchical." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1816. ME 14:421

"When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. ME 15:332



"The greatest [calamity] which could befall [us would be] submission to a government of unlimited powers." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration and Protest of Virginia, 1825. ME 17:445

"[We are] determined... to submit to undelegated, and consequently unlimited powers in no man or body of men on earth." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:386

"We are willing to sacrifice to [union with our sister States, and to the instrument and principles by which we are united] everything but the rights of self-government in those important points which we have never yielded, and in which alone we see liberty, safety, and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson to Wilson C. Nicholas, 1799. ME 10:131



http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1060.htm

[Molly]

"The support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencies, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our Government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:321



"I wish... to see maintained that wholesome distribution of powers established by the Constitution for the limitation of both [the State and General governments], and never to see all offices transferred to Washington where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold as at market." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:450



"What an augmentation of the field for jobbing, speculating, plundering, office-building and office-hunting would be produced by an assumption of all the State powers into the hands of the General Government!" --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1800. ME 10:168



"[Since] no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press [was] delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain and were reserved to the States or the people... Thus was manifested their determination to retain to themselves the right of judging how far the licentiousness of speech and of the press may be abridged without lessening their useful freedom, and how far those abuses which cannot be separated from their use should be tolerated rather than the use be destroyed." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:381





"Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428



"[We] believe that to take from the States all the powers of self-government and transfer them to a general and consolidated government without regard to the special delegations and reservations solemnly agreed to in [the Federal] compact, is not for the peace, happiness or prosperity of these States." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:386



"I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1825. ME 16:146



"Though the experiment has not yet had a long enough course to show us from which quarter encroachments are most to be feared, yet it is easy to foresee, from the nature of things, that the encroachments of the State governments will tend to an excess of liberty which will correct itself,... while those of the General Government will tend to monarchy, which will fortify itself from day to day instead of working its own cure, as all experience shows." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276

[Molly]

Such ridiculous nonsense that suggests that the true history of this country was to allow freedom for only Christians.

The founders were very clear that this country with its freedom could not survive without the underpinnings of Christian morality and piety, --and such are not taught nor able to be taught outside of the Christian religion.  I have already given you numerous quotations from them to this regard.

For you to think that you, especially as a minority position, can force my children to be exposed to things which are anathema to me, and withhold from them things I hold dear, for 8 or more hours a day, 5 days a week,  is so far off base of what the founders intended as to be a totally different form of government.

However, in their infinite wisdom, they did endeavor to reserve all rights to the states and the people except those few they gave to the federal government amid numerous checks and balances, therefore, technically, you could live in your antiChristian state with fellow antiChristians, teaching your children any manner of non-Christian religion you please, and I could live in my Christian state teaching my children only Christianity--which for me would take the form of a simple reading of the Bible in public school and a belief in the God of the Bible and honoring those beliefs in government.  Or, it could even take the form of the public schools being supported by the various Christian sects on the local level as outlined in the Massachusetts State Constitution.

That is, this was the case before the 14th amendment and the power grab by the fed govt in the 20th century.

So the remedy seems simple enough--to repeal the 14th amendment, shrink the federal government back to its footprint, restore the Republic, and return the powers of government to the states and the people where they rightfully belong.  This, of course, would include restoring our money, as well.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The founders were very clear that this country with its freedom could not survive without the underpinnings of Christian morality and piety, --and such are not taught nor able to be taught outside of the Christian religion.  I have already given you numerous quotations from them to this regard.

Your right, christianity does not contain that morality today, that is why this country was not founded upon what it stands for today.  Most atheists would not object to the idea of the days of old and what freedom actually meant back then.  But today, christians want to control and favor only their own,  the only question today is which vile sect of it would gain control.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jefferson

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

This is not what Christianity today would even dream of stating.

Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

Christianity today will not recognize deism as being Christian, the idea is preposterous.


Jefferson knew what the fundamentalists of today would be like, because religious leaders wanting control are all the same.

Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes"

Jefferson was just as suspicious of the traditional belief that the Bible is "the inspired word of God." He rewrote the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament and compiled his own gospel version known as The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial. The Jeffersonian gospel account contained no resurrection, a twist to the life of Jesus that was considered scandalous to Christians but perfectly sensible to Jefferson's Deistic mind.

Christianity would accept that huh?  Not hardly, what nonsense to say Christianity founded America.

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites"

LOL, Christianity.........

William Linn, a Dutch Reformed minister in New York City, made perhaps the most violent of all attacks on Jefferson's character, all of it based on religious matters. In a pamphlet entitled Serious Considerations on the Election of a President, Linn "accused Jefferson of the heinous crimes of not believing in divine revelation and of a design to destroy religion and `introduce immorality'" (Padover, p. 116). He referred to Jefferson as a "true infidel" and insisted that "(a)n infidel like Jefferson could not, should not, be elected" (Padover, p. 117). He concluded the pamphlet with this appeal for "Christians to defeat the `infidel' from Virginia"

Will you, then, my fellow-citizens, with all this evidence... vote for Mr. Jefferson?... As to myself, were Mr. Jefferson connected with me by the nearest ties of blood, and did I owe him a thousand obligations, I would not, and could not vote for him. No; sooner than stretch forth my hand to place him at the head of the nation "Let mine arms fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone" (quoted by Padover, p. 117).

Oh my, an accusation against our beloved founding father by a religious person,  oh what a surprise.

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally, was just as vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion. This paper, long considered a landmark document in political philosophy, was also cited in the majority opinion in Lee vs. Weisman. The views of Madison and Jefferson prevailed in the Virginia Assembly, and in 1786, the Assembly adopted the statute of religious freedom of which Jefferson and Madison were the principal architects. The preamble to this bill said that "to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical." The statute itself was much more specific than the establishment clause of the U. S. Constitution "Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in nowise [sic] diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities".

Oh, say it isn't so.


It is clear that there is a mixture of beliefs and opinions involved in the founding of this nation and the intent for freedom was to include those who believed in 20 Gods and Atheists as well to be free from religiousd tyranny.   They were all considered in the forging of what was intended to be the context of freedom.

[Molly]

Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian.

--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, (26 June 1822), published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1904, Vol. 12, pp. 241–243.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.

[Molly]

The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.

--James Madison, Speech, House of Representatives, during the debate "On the Memorial of the Relief Committee of Baltimore, for the Relief of St. Domingo Refugees" (1794-01-10) [4]





The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it.

--James Madison, Letter to Rev. Frederick Beasley (1825-11-20)

[Molly]

Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.

LOL  When have you ever listened to anything Billy Graham has to say?  You really should include dates, or some sort of reference with your quotes, though.

[Paul Hazelwood]

"a God"  something that Christianity cannot accept,  you must believe in their God.   If you believe he was making a statementy of Christianity, you are wrong.


Atheists have no problem accepting that morality could perhaps come from  "A God" and they understand morality exists and is favorable towards living decent lives,  but Christianity lies and twists what atheists say so that it appears that they deny God.  No the reality is they deny what Christianity says their God will do to the atheist for not agreeing with them.


all the quotes lead to a more balanced and non religious view of a creator.

Whatever else it might turn out to be, the Convention would not be a `Barebone's Parliament.' Although it had its share of strenuous Christians like Strong and Bassett, ex-preachers like Baldwin and Williamson, and theologians like Johnson and Ellsworth, the gathering at Philadelphia was largely made up of men in whom the old fires were under control or had even flickered out. Most were nominally members of one of the traditional churches in their part of the country--the New Englanders Congregationalists, and Presbyterians, the Southerners Episcopalians, and the men of the Middle States everything from backsliding Quakers to stubborn Catholics--and most were men who could take their religion or leave it along. Although no one in this sober gathering would have dreamed of invoking the Goddess of Reason, neither would anyone have dared to proclaim that his opinions had the support of the God of Abraham and Paul. The Convention of 1787 was highly rationalist and even secular in spirit" ("The Men of Philadelphia," 1787 The Grand Convention, New York W. W. Norton & Company, 1987, pp. 147-148, emphasis added).

[Molly]

Benjamin Rush (December 24, 1745 – April 19, 1813) was a Founding Father of the United States. Rush lived in the state of Pennsylvania and was a physician, writer, educator, humanitarian and a devout Christian, as well as the founder of Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Rush was a signatory of the Declaration of Independence and attended the Continental Congress. He was also a staunch opponent of Gen. George Washington and worked tirelessly to have him removed as the Commander-In-Chief of the Continental Army.[1] Later in life, he became a professor of medical theory and clinical practice at the University of Pennsylvania. Despite having a wide influence on the development of American government, he is not as widely known as many of his American contemporaries. Rush was also an early opponent of slavery and capital punishment.

Despite his great contributions to early American society, Rush may be more famous today as the man who, in 1812, helped reconcile the friendship of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams by encouraging the two former Presidents to resume writing to each other.[2][3]



He is generally deemed Presbyterian and was a founder of the Philadelphia Bible Society.[17] He was an advocate for Christianity in public life and in education. In line with that, he advocated that the U.S. government require public schools to teach students using the Bible as a textbook, that the government furnish an American bible to every family at public expense and that "the following sentence be inscribed in letters of gold over the door of every State and Court house in the United States. The Son of Man Came into the World, Not To Destroy Men's Lives, But To Save Them." [18][19] He publicly advocated such government actions even after the ratification in 1791 of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ....."[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Rush

[Paul Hazelwood]

Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.

LOL  When have you ever listened to anything Billy Graham has to say?  You really should include dates, or some sort of reference with your quotes, though.

What difference does that make?   Christianity hails Billy Graham as a great spiritual leader it's your religious beliefs that would look up to billy graham complain to billy graham for contradicting you.

[Molly]

Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.

LOL  When have you ever listened to anything Billy Graham has to say?  You really should include dates, or some sort of reference with your quotes, though.

What difference does that make?   Christianity hails Billy Graham as a great spiritual leader it's your religious beliefs that would look up to billy graham complain to billy graham for contradicting you.

I don't look up to Billy Graham.  I think he was used by the powers that be for their own ends.

[Paul Hazelwood]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion .....

Exactly.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Christians have often claimed that most non-Christians make death-bed professions of faith when they realize that they are dying. These claims almost always turn out to be unverifiable assertions, but Conway made it very clear that Washington, even on his death bed, made no profession of faith

When the end was near, Washington said to a physician present--an ancestor of the writer of these notes--"I am not afraid to go." With his right fingers on his left wrist he counted his own pulses, which beat his funeral march to the grave. "He bore his distress," so next day wrote one present, "with astonishing fortitude, and conscious, as he declared, several hours before his death, of his approaching dissolution, he resigned his breath with the greatest composure, having the full possession of his reason to the last moment." Mrs. Washington knelt beside his bed, but no word passed on religious matters. With the sublime taciturnity which had marked his life he passed out of existence, leaving no act or word which can be turned to the service of superstition, cant, or bigotry" (quoted by Remsberg, pp. 132-133, emphasis added).