I am writing this topic due to a research documentary that i have watched and seing people and even small children there speaking that they were another person and reincarnated ,just makes me feel sick . Since you are christians ...do you think that this really exists ?
Do scriptures say anything about it ?Some christians believe that this is the devil's doing (fallen angels inflicting hallutinations etc etc..)
Of my own point of view :It is morally evil since it assumes deleting people's memories (in most of people ) and sending them again to a lower and restricted form ,instead of loving them .
I haven't found any verse that supports reincarnation.
But there are verses that at least hint toward pre-existance.
If pre-existance is true that also means
Quotedeleting people's memories (in most of people ) and sending them again to a lower and restricted form ,instead of loving them .
For what it's worth.... I once read a short article about a 3(?) year old child that was alone in the bedroom with his newly born baby brother/sister.
His parents listened with the babyphone (don't know how it's called in English)
The boy said: "Tell me about our Father, I'm starting to forget about Him"
Again what's worth NDEs quite often say that we are here by our own choice/request.
Ok, back on-topic. Personally I'm not sure but purely based on verses I would give it at least a 60% change of pre-existance.
Reincarnation I give a 10% chance. Not because I found scriptual support for it but because I don't claim to remember/understand all verses. So something may have slipped under my radar :OhNo:
No. :thumbdown:
I think reincarnation as typically thought is not supported by the bible, however there is biblical suggestion that we pre existed in some form which still could be reincarnation of some form, just not necessarily the type where we might come back on this earth as a tree or a cow in india.
Matthew 11:11-15
We do come from God and all you have to do is look into a newborn baby's eyes --totally aware and totally innocent--to know that baby has come from another world.
No reincarnation in the Bible, but I do strongly believe that we have a genetic memory that is passed down to us physically.
No problem there. On even a local level, all immune responses depend on genetic memory.
Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2010, 04:12:27 PM
We do come from God and all you have to do is look into a newborn baby's eyes --totally aware and totally innocent--to know that baby has come from another world.
No reincarnation in the Bible, but I do strongly believe that we have a genetic memory that is passed down to us physically.
No problem there. On even a local level, all immune responses depend on genetic memory.
Reincarnation is largely about the spirit and little to do with physical forms. Most reincarnation beliefs are to do with history repeating until the players eventually get it right. I am not sure that is too far fetched, I mean, if eternal hell isn't true, then I believe there is some means in place so that we learn.
However the basic tenants of reincarnation can be found in the bible and this has to do with the spirit from one form manifesting in another.
Hi there all,
I agree with you Paul if you are saying that there is a possiblitity that there is reincarnation.
To me it sort of makes sense, in the way that some people seem to live lifes' full of pain and hardship and others seem to live a life of ease and plenty. To me why should this be so.
Also when nations seem to suffer together as in wars or genocide, etc. Maybe they inflicted that also on other nations and they are reaping their karma.
When Jesus said you reap what you sow, it doesn't make sense if He was talking about getting rewards or punishments only when we die. And we only live and die once when there are so many eons of time!
Just a theory perhaps!
Also i wonder why certain eras in history appeal to me, such as ancient Egyptian and medieval France to name two. Maybe i was born into those eras. Another thought to ponder on!
Godbless
Nancy
QuoteFor what it's worth.... I once read a short article about a 3(?) year old child that was alone in the bedroom with his newly born baby brother/sister.
His parents listened with the babyphone (don't know how it's called in English)
The boy said: "Tell me about our Father, I'm starting to forget about Him"
I doubt this to be true but it sure is a great story, brings a sort of nostalgia.
How lonely must have Jesus felt away from the Father's presence.
:hijacked:
sorry
There is possibility that reincarnation is true and could be the missing link in UR belief. I.e those that do not believe in Jesus perish and must reincarnate, but those that do believe in him shall never die and will keep their present existence to the next life.
That's just one view on things , I have many different viewpoints, angles on this as you can imagine :laughing7:
E.g another view is that we reincarnate and those that believe on Jesus who die, get to reincarnate with a fresh new clean spirit, while those who die in their sins, have to reincarnate with their sins still in their spirit, thus causing them problems as they grow up, because we reap what we sow.
This idea is found in a scripture that says, "Those who leave mother father, houses will be given ,wifes etc far more in this life and the life to come"
So how can a man who forsakes all to follow Jesus receive far more in this life? How can this promise be fullfilled without reincarnation?
In another verse, the Jews ask Jesus did this blind man from birth sin or his parents?
How could the blind man sin in his mothers womb? It suggests that the Jews knowledge was that reincarnation was part of their beliefs.
I'm not a believer in reincarnation, but I'm looking at the possibility.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on December 19, 2010, 10:30:37 PMIn another verse, the Jews ask Jesus did this blind man from birth sin or his parents?
How could the blind man sin in his mothers womb? It suggests that the Jews knowledge was that reincarnation was part of their beliefs.
I think the part about sin is not only a Jewish belief.
People inherit sin (from Adam) http://www.gotquestions.org/inherit-sin.html
There is also a verse that the punishment of sin can last 3/4 generations. And I think that was the thing they were refering to. They assumed the man was blind because his (grand)parents sinned.
Exodus 20:5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, am a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third generation , and on the fourth, of those hating Me,
http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/2009/06/who-sinned-blind-man-or-his-parents.html
Could be, but why did they ask if this man sinned?
I have no idea.
I know there is a good article discussing it. I'll post it if I find it.
Quote from: thinktank on December 19, 2010, 11:21:05 PM
Could be, but why did they ask if this man sinned?
John 9:3
Jesus answered, 'Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him;
I have no idea.
I know there is a good article discussing it. I'll post it if I find it.
wings
Ok, great.
I have found another powerful verse which could support reincarnation, I have not seen this verse discussed before, so I think I could be the first, to boldly go where no man has gone before, although I think the boldy is a bit of an exageration :laughing7:
The scripture says "occupy till I come"
That to me could support reincarnation, that we are to occupy until the time of the resurection. Since occupying is an earthly activity and he does not come until the end of the age, perhaps reincarnation is the method in how we "occupy" through this age, until christ returns to resurect the dead, to set up his earthly kingdom and destroys the beast or the statue of Daniel.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 19, 2010, 11:30:10 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 19, 2010, 11:21:05 PM
Could be, but why did they ask if this man sinned?
John 9:3
Jesus answered, 'Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him;
It just came to me a possible explanation for it and against it. The against it idea of reincarnation for this verse is that since All have sinned and come short of the glory, then Jesus is saying that this man could not possibly have existed before, because he did not sin, and since all sin....
But For the idea of reincarnation, Jesus said that his parents did not sin, and it is certain that they did exist. So they must have lived a godly life, but Jesus also said that the man did not sin, indicating that just like the parents who lived a godly life, this man also lived a godly life before entering the womb, his blindness was not that he sinned in a previous life, but to demonstrate the power of God to heal.
The scripture says. Jabob have I loved and Esau I hated in their womb. Perhaps Esau was the reincarnation of someone that did evil to Gods prophets or people.
:2c:
Sounds twisted to me.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on December 19, 2010, 11:36:52 PMI have found another powerful verse which could support reincarnation, I have not seen this verse discussed before, so I think I could be the first, to boldly go where no man has gone before, although I think the boldy is a bit of an exageration :laughing7:
Then just keep going baldly :winkgrin:
Quote
The scripture says "occupy till I come"
YLTLuke 1913 and having called ten servants of his own, he gave to them ten pounds, and said unto them, Do business--till I come;
Where does the reincarnation fit in?
QuoteThat to me could support reincarnation, that we are to occupy until the time of the resurection. Since occupying is an earthly activity and he does not come until the end of the age, perhaps reincarnation is the method in how we "occupy" through this age, until christ returns to resurect the dead, to set up his earthly kingdom and destroys the beast or the statue of Daniel.
For me reincarnation is not resurrection. Or better resurrection is jsut a small part of it.
It's living now and for example also have lived a 1000 years ago on earth.
Or do you mean in another creation????
:cloud9: From what I've read, it has been proposed that the Jews that were in the Babylonian captivity brought the doctrine back with them from Babylon. All pagan religions have a witchcraft element to them, but the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Babylonians seemed especially interested in trying to "perfect" it. :laughing7:
Reincarnation is a works based doctrine, ie. if you're "good enough" you won't have to come back. Yet we're told that there is none good but the Father.
The root of all witchcraft is to ascend our "throne" (heart/soul/mind) above the Most High, yet we are told that NO MAN can by taking thought (carnal mind imaginings) add one cubit to his stature (spiritual maturity of Christ).
These stories of kids remembering lives are from familiar spirits they either inherited thru their bloodline, or received from their parent's present participation in some form of witchcraft. Witchcraft is one spirit, but it has many manifestations.
For what it's worth; I can tell you from personal experience in deliverance ministry mode, that a spirit of reincarnation, like all witchcraft rooted spirits, is PARTICULARLY nasty to deal with. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 19, 2010, 11:55:28 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 19, 2010, 11:36:52 PMI have found another powerful verse which could support reincarnation, I have not seen this verse discussed before, so I think I could be the first, to boldly go where no man has gone before, although I think the boldy is a bit of an exageration :laughing7:
Then just keep going baldly :winkgrin:
Quote
:laughing7:
The scripture says "occupy till I come"
YLTLuke 19
13 and having called ten servants of his own, he gave to them ten pounds, and said unto them, Do business--till I come;
Where does the reincarnation fit in?
Well if one belives that Jesus will return, as in jude "he will return with 10 thousand of his saints"
Or as in the gospels "This same Jesus will return in like manner as you see him go"
So as Jesus returns at the end to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. This scripture indicates that we are to occupy till his return, someone in the grave for a thousand years cannot occupy, so they have failed the test before they even started, because Jesus said "occupy till I come"
QuoteThat to me could support reincarnation, that we are to occupy until the time of the resurection. Since occupying is an earthly activity and he does not come until the end of the age, perhaps reincarnation is the method in how we "occupy" through this age, until christ returns to resurect the dead, to set up his earthly kingdom and destroys the beast or the statue of Daniel.
For me reincarnation is not resurrection. Or better resurrection is jsut a small part of it.
It's living now and for example also have lived a 1000 years ago on earth.
Or do you mean in another creation????
To me reincarnation means, one's body has to die and their spirit, waits their turn and then has to incarnate again, but resurection means one's body becomes immortal. This mortal puts on immortality, so they no longer have to incarnate, they become as Jesus, immortal.
It is indeed a challenge to see how reincarnation can fit into the puzzle, but it could be that those without christ must reincarnate until they accept Jesus as saviour, while people such as apostle Paul, no longer have to reincarnate, because they have accepted Jesus as saviour. But this is just one viewpoint, one can take many views on this doctrine e.g perhaps the apsolte paul does have to incarnate again, until he he given an imoortal body that does not die at the time of the last trumpet resurection.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 20, 2010, 12:00:36 AM
:cloud9: From what I've read, it has been proposed that the Jews that were in the Babylonian captivity brought the doctrine back with them from Babylon. All pagan religions have a witchcraft element to them, but the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Babylonians seemed especially interested in trying to "perfect" it. :laughing7:
Reincarnation is a works based doctrine, ie. if you're "good enough" you won't have to come back. Yet we're told that there is none good but the Father.
The root of all witchcraft is to ascend our "throne" (heart/soul/mind) above the Most High, yet we are told that NO MAN can by taking thought (carnal mind imaginings) add one cubit to his stature (spiritual maturity of Christ).
These stories of kids remembering lives are from familiar spirits they either inherited thru their bloodline, or received from their parent's present participation in some form of witchcraft. Witchcraft is one spirit, but it has many manifestations.
For what it's worth; I can tell you from personal experience in deliverance ministry mode, that a spirit of reincarnation, like all witchcraft rooted spirits, is PARTICULARLY nasty to deal with. My :2c: Blessings....
It depends on the philosophy behind it. E,g buddism says one must obtain good karma by being good and eventually end up being perfect i.e a works based doctrine. But from a christian viewpoint one can see it as another opportunity for a person to receive christ as saviour. There are many people in this world who barely live to 20 years old or a kid even who dies. What kind of a spirit will that kid be, they would not have experinced life here on earth. Reincarnation gives a spirit many opportunities to live a full life and learn and grow and learn to humble oneself and accept christ as saviour.
Since there are a limited amount of people at a certain time, then it means that a spirit would only have a limited amount of chances i.e 2 or 3 lives perhaps and not hundreds. I think people could handle 2 or 3 deaths, I think hundreds would be cruelty.
:2c:
Many people share your view/thought TT. They are Hindoe (I think)
But is it a Christan concept?
Pre-existence I see (some) support for in the Bible.
But for reincarnation I've not seen any support (yet).
Ok, you could argue there are no verses that refute the idea. In that line of thinking we can discuss/assume billions of things
I think the strongest case is John the baptist. Jesus said "If you are willing to accept it, this is Elijah that was to come"
This might be an exception for Elijah, e.g only Elijah reincarnates, because hes a powerful man. But again it could be the rule and not the exception, just that Jesus decided to tell people that this was Elijah, most people don't know who they were in previous lives, but Jesus knows who we were and so tells them that John is Elijah, but John the baptist is unaware, so he says I'm not Elijah.
:2c:
:cloud9: And the Spirit (prophetic anointing) that was on Elijah DID come on the John the baptist, and continues to come.
As it's root in that capacity of experiencing Christ, that aspect of His nature comes to uncover/reveal/unveil the Spirit of Christ while bringing judgment/correction to the flesh, within and upon the fleshly body of the church. And so we see, "it" manifesting in Revelation, uncovering Christ in the 7 churches (fullness of His body incarnate), while bringing correction at the same time.
The Word that is Spirit, is a two edged sword; what manifests as fire to the flesh, manifests as water to the seed of Christ within the individual. You have to have water and fire to make bread, fit for the nations to eat.
HOWEVER: what you are really looking for is the reality that exists in Christ, that the doctrine of reincarnation, is a counterfeit OF.
Blessings.....
Hebrews 7: 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Quote from: thinktank on December 20, 2010, 12:35:49 AMI think the strongest case is John the baptist. Jesus said "If you are willing to accept it, this is Elijah that was to come"
That's weird. There are several discussions about the translation of Elijah. Was he transported to heaven was he moved to another place and died there.
If he died it means he reincarnated into John the baptist.
If he didn't die it means he was 'translated' into an unborn child.
:dontknow:
@cardinal
I've hears that explanation before, it doesn't make much sense to me. I.e the power anointing of Elijah is upon you.....
Notice the problem
1. It brings glory to Elijah
2. Why not say the spirit of Christ, for the spirit of Christ is more powerful than Elijah's, because Elijah was but a man, Jesus was a perfect man, even the Son of God and fullfilled the law.
Would it not make more sense to say the power of Christ is upon John the baptist. But they who explain the scripture concerning elijah being John the baptist, say it means the power anointing of Elijah and not elijah himself.
Notice also that the disciples said "who do men say that I am" said Christ
Some say you are elias, others jeremiah the prophet. Why would they say this unless reincarnation was a part of their beliefs?
Concenring the Hebrews scripture, I think your saying that this scripture says that he wasn't even alive yet, so reincarnation must be incorrect. But remember that the old testament was thousands of years ago and that was the begining of people incarnating and due to the limited amount of people at that time, only a few spirits could incarnate.
I'm not sure about reincarnation for the general public yet, but I think there is support for Elijah reincarnating, which means it is a possibility.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on December 20, 2010, 01:40:29 AM
Notice also that the disciples said "who do men say that I am" said Christ
Some say you are elias, others jeremiah the prophet. Why would they say this unless reincarnation was a part of their beliefs?
A large part of Jesus mission was debunking beliefs. The learning point usually is not what the people say/ask but the answer they get from Jesus.
Yes but he didn't debunk in these examples we have discussed, as far as I have seen so far.
:2c:
Yes Card, I see it now, that like all witchcraft-rooted spirits, the spirit of reincarnation is PARTICULARLY nasty.
At least it thinks it is.
:thumbsup:
Thank fully I have never seen such a thing. I didn't realize though that you believed in demonic activity.
From what I have read it seems to be that some reported past lives are familiar spirits, causing deception e.g claiming they are the cleopatra, but other accounts of past lives seem genuine and their past lives are pretty boring or average from a certain view.
:cloud9: @ TT......No, you missed the point I was making with the scripture in Hebrews. Levi was alive in the flesh AFTER Abraham, yet Hebrews tells us Levi paid tithes to Melchisedek when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek, and that it was because Levi was in Abraham's loins. Selah.....
As for the spirit of Elijah versus saying the spirit of Christ. You have realize they had no understanding yet that there even BE a spirit of Christ, nor did they know what that was exactly (hint: it was not Jesus's spirit, like you and I have a spirit) so that escaped them as well. It STILL escapes most people, because only the Father can reveal this unto you, as Jesus told Peter after the Father revealed it to him.
Even shortly after his death, the disciples came upon some that believed and they asked them if they had received the HG since they believed. Their reply was, that they didn't even know there was such a thing to receive. So the disciples prayed for these believers to receive the HG. My :2c: Blessings....
God did not give Israel a custom-made land of milk and honey but an already inhabited land, which needed to be overcome.
:cloud9: Absolutely.....which is why it's a necessity to believe in demonic activity and evil spirits, IMO. Kind of hard to get deliverance from something if you don't believe that something exists. :laughing7:
@TT
http://www.marvinvining.com/files/PR_JesusTheWickedPriest.pdf
I stumbled on this quote
QuoteVining's detailed study also reveals long-lost Christian doctrines of reincarnation. He shows
Gabriel to be the high priest Simeon and the Teacher of Righteousness and discloses Gabriel's
role in transmitting the seed of the holy bloodline to the Virgin Mary.
To be honest I don't understand that quote because the Essene who wrote the DSS were no Christians :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on December 20, 2010, 12:35:49 AM
I think the strongest case is John the baptist. Jesus said "If you are willing to accept it, this is Elijah that was to come"
This might be an exception for Elijah, e.g only Elijah reincarnates, because hes a powerful man. But again it could be the rule and not the exception, just that Jesus decided to tell people that this was Elijah, most people don't know who they were in previous lives, but Jesus knows who we were and so tells them that John is Elijah, but John the baptist is unaware, so he says I'm not Elijah.
http://khup.com/download/34_keyword-christian-doctrine-book/the-lost-christian-doctrine-of-reincarnation.pdf
Contrary to popular belief, reincarnation doesn't conflict with the orthodox resurrection of the dead. Hasidic Jews today generally believe that reincarnation occurs until the resurrection takes place at the End of Days, and according to my research the early Christians held the same belief.Just read the short article. Maybe there is something in it that interests you.
Verses that prove reincarnation (according to some).
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-bible-verses.htm
http://www.christianinformation.org/article.asp?artID=90
http://bible.org/article/mystery-reincarnation
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html
http://www.prophetsforpeace.com/reincarnationbible-freewillvspredestination.htm
Needless to say it's not hard to find many articles that claim reincarnation is a lie of satan.
:cloud9: My :2c:.......I know it's a spirit, and this is one reason why. He told me while laying hands on someone praying once, to come against the spirit of reincarnation. I never, until that moment, even knew there WAS such a spirit and I also didn't know she had studied it/believed it.
Found out REAL quick when I commanded it to loose her, in His name. :mshock:
So reincarnation is not an "event" but a name of a spirit/demon?
:cloud9: Doctrines that do not originate from His Spirit, have a corresponding spirit of their own. Satan is the FATHER of lies = "progeny".
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 20, 2010, 02:37:31 PM
@TT
http://www.marvinvining.com/files/PR_JesusTheWickedPriest.pdf
I stumbled on this quote
QuoteVining's detailed study also reveals long-lost Christian doctrines of reincarnation. He shows
Gabriel to be the high priest Simeon and the Teacher of Righteousness and discloses Gabriel's
role in transmitting the seed of the holy bloodline to the Virgin Mary.
To be honest I don't understand that quote because the Essene who wrote the DSS were no Christians :dontknow:
Have not read that pdf, but from your quote it sounds like doctrines of demons to me. Anything that promotes the idea of angels such as Gabriel incarnating in human being, is suspicious, but perhaps I am being to hasty. Melzideck for example was a high priest who had no mother or father, some say he was Jesus, but maybe he was an angel, because Jesus has a heavenly father, whereas angels are creations without father or mother.
:2c:
TT,
It's just something I accidently found when I was searching for my "Nazareth did not exist in the time of Jesus".
It seems that old writings show that certain Jews did believe in reincarnation before, during and after Jesus (even today).
Note that I underlined 'certain'.
Plus I want to add that acient writing don't make things right. Jesus was rebuking false doctrines half the time.
About the angels: I don't know it's in that document but some, there is a 'some' for everything :winkgrin:, believe angels live among us.
Anyway I found the links and just posted them here. That's all.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 20, 2010, 12:00:36 AM
:cloud9: From what I've read, it has been proposed that the Jews that were in the Babylonian captivity brought the doctrine back with them from Babylon. All pagan religions have a witchcraft element to them, but the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Babylonians seemed especially interested in trying to "perfect" it. :laughing7:
Seems the reincarnation idea lives strongly among (certain) Jews.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1409093/jewish/Why-When-Does-Reincarnation-Occur.htm
Summary:
Some sins can't be cleansed in the afterlife so the person reincarnates and gets a chance to improve.
If there is no improvement after 3 times it reincarnates in a clean animal.
Then unclean.
Finally something like a rock.
The first part I can understand. But how can a animal do things better than the previous human if they aren't even aware of good and evil :dontknow:
I heard one believer of the Torah, say that Ishmael I think!, came back as a donkey! You know the donkey that spoke in the bible. I think he said that the other major donkey that Jesus rode upon was king David, maybe that's why the crowd were bowing to Jesus, perhaps they were bowing to the donkey, king David and not the rider.
But to be fair the guy did have some crazy theories, I think he said that if one is to unclean they become a demon and can no longer incarnate, because there would be too much bad karma and the person would be destroyed too easilly.
That view doesn't align with the article TT.
King David was a good guy. So he won't reincarnate at all. Only the very bad people reincarnate as another chance.
At least that's how I understand that article :dontknow:
I know, it was just another viewpoint from someone else. Besides I fund the guy boring to listen too so I was not paying much attention to what he said, so I'm not even sure if he was talking about king David, maybe he said another guy who was a bad guy. But king David did have some sins that would result in bad karma, not enough for a donkey, probably not.
I found some info; some of it extra-biblical. Some of it are verses that stringed together a
reincarnation line of Seth -> Noach -> Abraham -> Moses.
It's often said reincarnation is paganism coming from the Greeks. It's true Greeks did/do believe in reincarnation. But it was Pythagoras who introduced the idea in Greek society after his travels to Persia where he learned the doctrine from the Jews being exiled there.
YLTJohn 92 and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who did sin, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?'
3 Jesus answered, `Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him;
The above shows the Jews believed in sins passing on through generations. Jesus rebuked his disciples. Not because reincarnation but because of the question was not accurate. The verse below clearly shows sin does
not pass on from father to son.
YLTEzek 1820 The soul that doth sin--it doth die. A son doth not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father doth not bear of the iniquity of the son, The righteousness of the righteous is on him, And the wickedness of the wicked is on him.
YLTExod 205 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, am a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third generation , and on the fourth, of those hating Me,
This verse states (the punishment of) sin passed thought generations. It seem to contradict Ezek 18:20 but it doesn't.
1st generation - the sinner
2nd generation - the son
3rd generation - the grand son
4rd generation - the grand grand son
Exodus 20:5 does
not mention the 2nd generation. The reason from the reincarnation pov is simple; the spirit of the father can't be both in the father and the son. The person that reincarnates must be dead so the verse basically says that father reincarnates in a generation that was born/conceived
after his death.
So nobody ever inherits the sin of others. Only your own sin can be inherited.
Still reading? :mshock:
YLTMark 1226 `And concerning the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the Book of Moses (at The Bush), how God spake to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
27 he is not the God of dead men, but a God of living men; ye then go greatly astray.'
He's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Those people did not all live at the same time. We would say most were dead when God spoke those words. But in the next verse God clearly states He's not the God of the dead. So all those people must somehow be still be alive somewhere or in some form. They were not in heaven because Jesus clearly said He is the first one that ascended back to Father.
YLTJohn 313 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
YLTEph 49 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
-> First Adam is the last Adam....???
-> Son of man -> The son of Adam? (that would mean many reincarnations
Moses
YLTExod 23 and she hath not been able any more to hide him, and she taketh for him an ark of rushes, and daubeth it with bitumen and with pitch, and putteth the lad in it, and putteth it in the weeds by the edge of the River;
YLTExod 210 And the lad groweth, and she bringeth him in to the daughter of Pharaoh, and he is to her for a son, and she calleth his name Moses, and saith, `Because--from the water I have drawn him.'
The Egyptians call water "mou", and a saved person saved "eses".
--> Saved from the water. Just like Noach.
KJVJosh 243 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.
Note: Many translation use the word river instead of flood.
The other side of the flood means those in the ark. Abraham=Noach
YLTGen 69 These are birth
s of Noah: Noah is a righteous man; perfect he hath been among his generations; with God hath Noah walked habitually.
Who's spirit did Noach have? Adam and Seth both survived all their offspring and died prior to Noach's birth.
YLTGen 315 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel.'
-> Adam's offspring Seth
Just a few thoughts.... :icon_jokercolor:
very cool stuff, ww. :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 01:33:30 PM
Verses that prove reincarnation (according to some).
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-bible-verses.htm
http://www.christianinformation.org/article.asp?artID=90
http://bible.org/article/mystery-reincarnation
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html
http://www.prophetsforpeace.com/reincarnationbible-freewillvspredestination.htm
Needless to say it's not hard to find many articles that claim reincarnation is a lie of satan.
Hi Whitewings
Thanks for those links, there's some fascinating reading. Just as there are many scriptures alluding to UR which go unnoticed by those who have been brought up with the traditional perspective, is it possible that we have been blind to verses alluding to reincarnation and may still resist the plain and simple reading of the text?
Quote from: pilgrim1 on February 06, 2011, 03:16:21 PM
Hi Whitewings
Thanks for those links, there's some fascinating reading. Just as there are many scriptures alluding to UR which go unnoticed by those who have been brought up with the traditional perspective, is it possible that we have been blind to verses alluding to reincarnation and may still resist the plain and simple reading of the text?
A Bible can be read in many ways. There are views only white people will be saved. But also that only black people will be saved. Just one example of an opposite view 'found' in the same book.
Among the early church fathers there was a debate over many things. Church split of in the early days over various believes. The 5th Counsil in 553AD declared reincarnation heresy. That's a long time ago and basicly the whole idea fades away if never spoken about. In Christianity that is. In other religions it's the core of the belief system.
Historians and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree that at least one Jewish sect very strongly believed in reincarnation. The writers of the DSS were the Essene. Jesus and most of his apostles were Essene too. In the Bible we know the Essene under all sorts of names. Herodians, Pharisees the not so extreme wing of the Essene, and the Scribes (likely the sect started at Ezra the scribe)
They hunted Jesus down, so it's very clear not everything Jesus believed was believed by them. That may include reincarnation.
QuoteAt their end, the Essenes faced a day of reckoning truly as terrible as the Crucifixion and the martyrdoms with similar fortitude and resolution: "The war with the Romans tried their souls through and through by every variety of test, Racked and twisted, burned and broken, and made to pass through every instrument of torture in order to induce them to blaspheme their lawgiver or to eat some forbidden thing, they refused to yield to either demand, nor ever once did they cringe to their persecutors or shed a tear. Smiling in their agonies and mildly deriding their tormentors, they cheerfully resigned their souls, confident that they would receive them back again" (Josephus Jewish Wars).
Reincarnation is not just a casual word mentioned in the DSS
They believed for example that short fat people with uneven teeth were wicked in their previous life. Those with glowing black eyes and good teeth were reincarnations of good people. The star sign someone was born under was also of importance.
YLTRev 102 and he had in his hand a little scroll opened, and he did place his right foot upon the sea, and the left upon the land,
That verse seems to hint to star sign Cancer/Crab and is a reference to reincarnation.
And of course the most ancient symbol of reincarnation....
(http://www.badalijewelry.com/images2/snake03505.jpg)
Of course none of the above proves reincarnation is true. For that we need to look in the Bible. Some verses at least seem to point in that direction.
For someone who calls them self a believer and filled with the Holy Spirit to even consider reincarnation as part of God's plan shows just how small your faith and understanding of His Word is. I am not sorry if that offends the brethren on this site. For myself there has been much knowledge and insight that has been offered and received from most of you, for this I am thankfull to you and the Lord. It is evident that I am no longer invited into the discussions on this forum and that is ok. If I am in error of that statement, I will recant. I have read and have found the teachings of Gary to be very fruitfull as his writings show he has been led to study and teach out side of the denominal and religious fundamental teachings and opinioned therory.
I am not what you call your selves UR. I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now. I believe that religion, denominations, mans teachings and docrtines and ceremonies have tethered believers to these lower realms. I believe that The Lord moved in the past and brought men up higher and were given revelations to the teachers that brought believers even higher, but as we can see from this past from the OT till now, He brings us to that place where all seems that this is place of the vision (Hab.2:3) and then men stop and build on the new teachings and some of the old and the heavenly growth stops, the Spiritual acsending to come up higher(Rev.4:1) ceases and the believers settle for the joys of that level that fill us and we become lethargic and lukewarm thinking that we have made it somewhere, when the journey upward still awaits those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying...Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else, I have been given no more insight that any of the brethren other than being told that we need to lay aside the old things and know that He is doing a NEW thing....Isa 43:19 Lo, I am doing a new thing, now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a way, In a desolate place--floods.
Praise the Wonderfull and Beautifull Name of JESUS.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 06, 2011, 09:42:07 PM
I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else,
I believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation. I've been wondering where you are. Not sure why you think you shouldn't post, brother.
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2011, 11:27:56 PMI believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation.
Based on what?
I can state I know 100% sure reincarnation is true. But what's the use of such a statement without any verse to support the idea?
There are several verses that hint toward reincarnation. So to declare reincarnation umbilical with much certainty there should be at least one verse to support that idea I would say.
The fact that Jesus died on the cross neither proves or disproves reincarnation imo.
It's possibly even connected with LoF.
:2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 21, 2010, 05:51:50 PM
:cloud9: Doctrines that do not originate from His Spirit, have a corresponding spirit of their own. Satan is the FATHER of lies = "progeny".
So is there an eternal torchery spirit, too?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 12:03:08 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2011, 11:27:56 PMI believe the same thing, and I don't believe in reincarnation.
Based on what?
I can state I know 100% sure reincarnation is true. But what's the use of such a statement without any verse to support the idea?
There are several verses that hint toward reincarnation. So to declare reincarnation umbilical with much certainty there should be at least one verse to support that idea I would say.
The fact that Jesus died on the cross neither proves or disproves reincarnation imo.
It's possibly even connected with LoF.
:2c:
Based on I know of absolutely no scriptures that would clearly back up the idea. If there's scriptural backing that's clear I haven't seen it. To be clear, my definition of reincarnation is coming back in this life over and over, likely in different entities/beings to "get it right". Again, I just see no scriptural proof, and I have no other reasons to believe it. I believe correction in this one life for some, then in the next age for the rest - not over and over in this age, as in different bodies/animals, etc.
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2011, 02:14:24 AMBased on I know of absolutely no scriptures that would clearly back up the idea. If there's scriptural backing that's clear I haven't seen it.
I've shown several verses.
QuoteTo be clear, my definition of reincarnation is coming back in this life over and over,
That's your personal idea of reincarnation. Not what is the listed verses.
Quotelikely in different entities/beings to "get it right". Again, I just see no scriptural proof, and I have no other reasons to believe it. I believe correction in this one life for some, then in the next age for the rest
What if reincarnation is the next age?
Quote- not over and over in this age, as in different bodies/
You mean John the Baptist being Elijah....
Quoteanimals, etc.
I didn't speak of animals.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 06, 2011, 09:42:07 PM
For someone who calls them self a believer and filled with the Holy Spirit to even consider reincarnation as part of God's plan shows just how small your faith and understanding of His Word is. I am not sorry if that offends the brethren on this site. For myself there has been much knowledge and insight that has been offered and received from most of you, for this I am thankfull to you and the Lord. It is evident that I am no longer invited into the discussions on this forum and that is ok. If I am in error of that statement, I will recant. I have read and have found the teachings of Gary to be very fruitfull as his writings show he has been led to study and teach out side of the denominal and religious fundamental teachings and opinioned therory.
I am not what you call your selves UR. I believe in Christ crucified, that it is His blood that is cleanising of all sin. I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world and that it is good and acceptable that all men will be saved. I believe that the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit and Life. I believe that life more abundantly is not living alive now, on this earth breathing breath that is but to die. Life more abundantly is ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT, which is just what Jesus offered then and now. I believe that religion, denominations, mans teachings and docrtines and ceremonies have tethered believers to these lower realms. I believe that The Lord moved in the past and brought men up higher and were given revelations to the teachers that brought believers even higher, but as we can see from this past from the OT till now, He brings us to that place where all seems that this is place of the vision (Hab.2:3) and then men stop and build on the new teachings and some of the old and the heavenly growth stops, the Spiritual acsending to come up higher(Rev.4:1) ceases and the believers settle for the joys of that level that fill us and we become lethargic and lukewarm thinking that we have made it somewhere, when the journey upward still awaits those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying...Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely.
I have not recieved any more knowledge than anyone else, I have been given no more insight that any of the brethren other than being told that we need to lay aside the old things and know that He is doing a NEW thing....Isa 43:19 Lo, I am doing a new thing, now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a way, In a desolate place--floods.
Praise the Wonderfull and Beautifull Name of JESUS.
I enjoy your point of views and questions, I like your, more grounded, scriptural style, I get tired sometimes of the often posted symbolic new agey stuff here. I also enjoy the writings of Gary and his audios give me faith in saving all people.
I find your hissy fits entertaining too :bigGrin: , for me that is rare.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else? John wasn't actually Elijah he just had the state of quality of being that Elijah had, kind of like Jesus was the second Adam but he was the opposite in personality and power. Did that make Jesus Adam? No.
CHB
Some interesting discoveries you have raised here whitewings. The idea of reincarnation does not appeal to the christian mindset, but it could be true nevertheless. The hope is that whatever one did in the old incarnated life, that is now in the past and the new life is now.
Here is some random points why reincarnation could be true
Human race has evolved, we now have more knowledge. So what has changed?. Has God changed?
Jesus said "I tell you that there be some standing here which will not taste of death till they see the son of man come with his holy angels"
Apart from reincarnation how else can this be fullfilled? I have looked at this verse from multiple angles and cannot find an answer to it, except that it may refer to reincarnation.
Quote from: CHB on February 07, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?
Quote from: thinktank on February 07, 2011, 05:41:26 PM
Some interesting discoveries you have raised here whitewings. The idea of reincarnation does not appeal to the christian mindset, but it could be true nevertheless.
In the early centuries many did believe it. Surely they could have been wrong. Things have be changed by force. There were all kind of views on trinity, divinity of Jesus, afterlife. What we call Christianity today is not reached by agreement trough debate but 'military' force of the church.
QuoteThe hope is that whatever one did in the old incarnated life, that is now in the past and the new life is now.
I know you are (partly) ED, but try to think with a UR mind. If people are cast in LoF for correction/teaching; what exactly happens there? A big sunday school with Jesus as a teacher? Or could it be earth? "LoF is now" as Willie often wrote.
QuoteHuman race has evolved, we now have more knowledge. So what has changed?. Has God changed?
For me that's not proof. Knowledge is passed on. Each generation adds something to the knowledge of a previous generation.
Tony, earlier you asked for "one verse". My response was, I don't see any verses really supporting it, not necessarily arguing against it.
I've been mulling this verse over and thought I'd ask what you thought about it. Earlier tonight TT said "if reincarnation's true, maybe people would accept Jesus as their savior in this life"... My response was, "since the scriptures say it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, probably not".
I've been tossing that around in my mind, that scrip, and it's one more reason I don't believe [in the primary interpretation] of reincarnation (multiple go-rounds in this life/age). What do you think of that scripture in all your various thoughts about this subject?
Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2011, 11:04:49 AMI've been mulling this verse over and thought I'd ask what you thought about it. Earlier tonight TT said "if reincarnation's true, maybe people would accept Jesus as their savior in this life"... My response was, "since the scriptures say it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, probably not".
SECOND death. :laughing7:
I thought about that, but then I thought "that's spiritual". Seems to be 2 very different things.
Generally speaking I think we should be careful with words like first, second. once, etc
First can also be a "class".
Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2011, 11:54:37 AM
I thought about that, but then I thought "that's spiritual". Seems to be 2 very different things.
That not correct either. LoF is not kill people spiritually. LoF is the opposite. It's about waking up that dead spirit. We already have 6 billion spirtually dead on this planet. No need to make 'm even more dead.
What's not correct? That the second death is spiritual, and the first and second deaths are very different from each other? I agree, the second death brings life - spiritual life, the death of death. That seems different than physically dying. Maybe I'm missing something, it's late. :dontknow:
As far as "appointed once to die", whether that's 1 time or a "class" as you say, IMO it still means one go-round in this life, then the next step is the next age - not multiple go-rounds in this life/age. But it's not up to me what folks believe about it, that's what I believe. :bigGrin:
anyway, I've said how I see it. it does get a little confusing this time of night (5 AM, haven't been to bed yet! you're right, i was probably a little confused.) i'll try to hush and let some others weigh in on it if they want. :drama:
What is the 2nd death?
a] The 2nd death of any type?
b] Or a 2nd death of a certain type? -> both spiritual or both physical
It can't be option a] because most people dy the second death on earth. They are spiritual dead and then they die of old age. After that they are judged into LoF. Another death.
Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2011, 01:07:53 PMAs far as "appointed once to die", whether that's 1 time or a "class" as you say, IMO it still means one go-round in this life, then the next step is the next age - not multiple go-rounds in this life/age.
I think (possibly) OT and NT times need to be seen seperately.
Just thinking out loud. The whole deal is being perfected and thaught.
What if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?
But there is a mathimatical problem with that thought. On this very moment more people are alive than all people combined from creation to Jesus.
QuoteBut it's not up to me what folks believe about it, that's what I believe. :bigGrin:
That's the easy way out. The easy way seldom is productive. :2c:
It just doesn't feel good to me to ignore the verses I quoted just because 'you' believe otherwise.
The Bereans were strong believers but still they kept testing verything on daily basis. And testing is not just repeating words over and over again..... :mblush:
Quote from: wwWhat if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?
Jesus does mess up the classical concept of reincarnation because he forgives sin.
Therefore, the cycle of karma is broken.
But even in the OT there was provision for forgiveness of sin for the Hebrews.
Also one sows and another reaps so that they can have joy together--another blow to karma.
Another problem with reincarnation for Christians--you are subject to forces that are dependent on your own behavior--if you are bad you come back as an animal, if you are good you come back as an enlightened guru. Who needs Christ? It's another 'I can do it myself' religion. Furthermore, it is socially deterministic. All those poor people living on the streets of India were put there because of their own behavior in another life, caste, whatever--so there is no reason to help them--nor are they able or allowed to better themselves in society. They are stuck until the next life.
God is either very detached and remote in these religions [budhism] or very demonic.
I wouldn't trade Christ for any of that.
36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
--John 4
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 10:44:55 AM
Quote from: CHB on February 07, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?
Hi ww,
This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2011, 02:39:07 PM
It's another 'I can do it myself' religion.
Not just another. It is exactly what the OT religion is. Just follow these 640 laws and you will get spot in heaven.
And nobody made it....because the only way leads through Jesus.
Besides of that it has nothing to do with the topic.
Reincarnation doesn't nullify grace or the sarcrifice of Jesus. On the contrary it amplifies Fathers grace. We can't get "it" right in 1 life. Not even in x lives. More reincarnations are just more proof we come short.
If we preexisted why are we on earth? If we where in heaven we knew God first hand. We didn't believe in God we knew God as a fact. So why are we here? And then why not 2 times?
I don't know. But I do know reincarnation(s) doesn't take away even the smallest fraction of Gods grace/glory/control/etc
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 10:44:55 AM
Quote from: CHB on February 07, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?
Hi ww,
This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.
Then you misunderstood me. I think :dontknow:
Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?
If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?
Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat
Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)
My answers are b/d/f/h
:icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2011, 02:39:07 PM
Quote from: wwWhat if that perfection went on in OT times and Jesus broke the circle and the reincarnation cycle ended?
Jesus does mess up the classical concept of reincarnation because he forgives sin.
Therefore, the cycle of karma is broken.
But even in the OT there was provision for forgiveness of sin for the Hebrews.
Also one sows and another reaps so that they can have joy together--another blow to karma.
TT
Sow unrightowusness, reap unrighteousness, sow good things, reap good things sounds familiar to karma in a sense
Another problem with reincarnation for Christians--you are subject to forces that are dependent on your own behavior--if you are bad you come back as an animal, if you are good you come back as an enlightened guru. Who needs Christ? It's another 'I can do it myself' religion. Furthermore, it is socially deterministic. All those poor people living on the streets of India were put there because of their own behavior in another life, caste, whatever--so there is no reason to help them--nor are they able or allowed to better themselves in society. They are stuck until the next life.
God is either very detached and remote in these religions [budhism] or very demonic.
I wouldn't trade Christ for any of that.
36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
--John 4
The mistake you make here or the assumption is that the you view reincarnation with certain ideas which come from other religions. I however look at reincarnation in terms of the actual meaning of the word, which is to come back and incarnate in another body, it does not nessecarily mean that people get multiple lives, (for one there is only a limited amount of vessels to incrnate in), perhaps only 2, or perhaps only certain people like Elijah reincarnate in order to be Gods faithfull servant in the world, so that he has a vessel to operate in and speak to the people. Reincarnation from a biblical standpoint is a new idea or rather an idea not explored much or it is something that is simply lost in history, such as the works of Origen. This means that building other ideas around it is an evolving process, e.g if reincarnation is true does it mean that when one accepts Jesus as saviour, then their souls no longer dies, but is guaranteed everlasting life, but those who sin die and therefore, must incarnate into another vessel?
The idea of reincarnation forces one too look upon many passages, which would be interpreted differently. So far I have found some supporting passages, while other passages seeem to be against it, it is quite similar to the soul sleep vs immortal soul/ and/or immortal spirit battle, where there seems to be contradictory passages.
What passages TT?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 10:44:55 AM
Quote from: CHB on February 07, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2011, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2011, 06:38:15 AM
Reincarnation is not a doctrine offered or taught in the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The very basis of Christianity (and many other religions) is reincarnation.
Doesn't the Bible speak of resurrection into perfected bodies? That's reincarnation. Pre-existance. That's 3 incarnations already.
Yes, but aren't we all going to be ourselves, not something or someone else?
From a Biblical point of view who exactly is CHB? The person I can see, hear and touch? Or the spirit/life that is inside the body that's currently called CHB? The Bible calls our body a garment of the spirit.
If you buy a new dress today does it mean you no longer are CHB?
Hi ww,
This is kind of what I was saying. In the next life I will still be me, not someone or something else as reincarnation seems to be.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Then you misunderstood me. I think :dontknow:
Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?
If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?
Yes, I believe I did misunderstand you. I see what you mean but nevertheless I will still be me and look the same. Doesn't reincarnation mean that you become some one different or something different? You are right in saying that we will put on a coat so to speak. It will just be a spiritual coat but it will be the same me as I am now and I believe we will be recognizable to everyone. I think we will look just like we do now.. {God forbid}.. but we will just be in spiritual bodies.
OK, say I die and come back as a monkey, are you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB? :grin: Are you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else? Now, why would God need to do all of that?
Quote from: WhiteWings
Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat
Yes, but why do you think that was? Jesus was beaten so bad he had skin hanging from his body. His face was so marred that he was unrecognizable. I guess if we chose to look different we could if we are spiritual beings, I don't know.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)
Not a chance. :laughing7:
CHB
Whitewings has some passages and I wrote some earlier in this forum. Here is a more recent one I was talking about
Matthew 16:28 (King James Version)
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I don't understand this passage, unless maybe they were people there that had Saul experinces, perhaps Paul the Saul himself was there. But from reincarnation pov they reincarnate until the end of time, when Jesus returns, then .....their soul dies, maybe because they are cast into the LOF and that fire destroys the evil in their soul.
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 07:47:09 PMit is quite similar to the soul sleep vs immortal soul/ and/or immortal spirit battle, where there seems to be contradictory passages.
Mmmm, what if soul sleep is part of reincarnation....?
I posted a few verses that seem to say a person inherits his/her own sin. That's always in a later generation.
Let me give an example.
A father dies and is scheduled for reincarnation. He's reincarnated in his grandson that's born 3 years after his death. Where/how does that spirit wait?
Maybe in a soul sleep?
But you are very right when you mentioned that there seem to be certain contradiction. And reincarnation doesn't solve them.
Assuming there are no major translation/copying errors in the Bible those contradictions can only exist due to our wrong understanding.
And the only way to solve them is look outside the box called doctrine....
Quote from: wwI post a few verses that seem to say a person inherits his/her own sin. That's always in a later generation.
Maybe you are describing Hell. :laughing7:
OK, say I die and come back as a monkey, are you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB? :grin: Are you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else? Now, why would God need to do all of that?
If you came back as a monkey you would generally have monkey thoughts, nice banana etc, but your spirit would still be there, you would have your drive, will power, determination etc, since you would have a monkey brain and a monkey upbringing it is unlikely that you would sit down and watch your past favourite tv channel. Although some animals do exhibit certain strange human behaviour, such as "watching tv".
But generally coming back as an animal , I think is to low for a human being and reincarnation from a biblical stand point does not neccessarily mean that animals are involved. But God did take a very peculiar route to rescue Adam from sin, almost as if, after Adam took the tree of knowledge, Adam now lived in another dimension, in another world, where he was seperate from God, and only Christ could come and save him and his decendants. Reincarnation makes sense in the regard that we are or were lost in a cycle of death, till Jesus came to save us from death so that we go from this world, back to his world. Maybe those who do not accept Jesus as saviour, remain in this world of death an must lose his current soul, then reincarnate over again, a fresh new start, but also in bondage to death and a slave to sin, so unless one accpets christ then perhaps they are continually reincarnating, making the same mistakes of rejecting christ, being in bondage to sin and therefore death
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, "Abba,[g] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Then you misunderstood me. I think :dontknow:
Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?
If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?[/quote]
Yes, I believe I did misunderstand you. I see what you mean but nevertheless I will still be me and look the same. Doesn't reincarnation mean that you become some one different or something different? You are right in saying that we will put on a coat so to speak. It will just be a spiritual coat but it will be the same me as I am now and I believe we will be recognizable to everyone. I think we will look just like we do now.. {God forbid}.. but we will just be in spiritual bodies.
OK, say I die and come back as a monkey,
[/quote]Maybe I should clear up a few things first. I did post something about a Jewish belief that people get many chances and if it keeps going wrong the reincarnation is a lower lifeform everytime. Then it ends and sinner becomes dust.
What I answered to that post is what fits here very well too. How can a monkey correct any mistake when it can hardly think?
I can understand that a murderer can undo the damage by becoming a very caring person in the next life. But a monkey that only has two thought in his life. Sleep and eat a bananna....
Quoteare you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB? :grin:
I think this must a learning experience from a past life when I was really rude to women. Lemme think.... Crap I feel another reincarnation coming :laughing7:
Seriously, I can see the use of reincarnting as a person but not as an animal. Unless science is very very wrong about the metal capacity of animals...
So my answer is: In your next live you will be an angel too. :laughing7:
QuoteAre you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else? Now, why would God need to do all of that?
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat
Yes, but why do you think that was? Jesus was beaten so bad he had skin hanging from his body. His face was so marred that he was unrecognizable. I guess if we chose to look different we could if we are spiritual beings, I don't know.
You can do better CHB.... :winkgrin:
Say your husband gets a really bad accident. Car crash every bone broken. 50% burn wounds. He dies a few days later. A month later I show you a year old picture of your husband. Would you recognise him? Do you think he people that knew Him for at least 3 years forgot how He looked 4 days ago?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)
Not a chance. :laughing7:
That's not a real answer... :mshock:
Try to answer my 3 questions. Who exactly are you....
My answers are b/d/f/h
Yours?
Quote from: thinktank on February 08, 2011, 09:00:32 PM
If you came back as a monkey you would generally have monkey thoughts, nice banana etc,
That may be true for monkies TT. I'm sure that the thoughts of a politician stay teh same after reincarnation as a snake :laughing7:
QuoteBut generally coming back as an animal , I think is to low for a human being and reincarnation from a biblical stand point does not neccessarily mean that animals are involved.
Exactly. If the verses are really about reincarnation they are about mankind. The 3rd generation of a human is a human. Not a monkey.
Lamentations 5:7, "Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne (been punished for) their iniquities."
"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
--Jeremiah 31:29-30
"What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."
--Ezekiel 18:2-3
This is an uncomfortable topic for me. I believe the idea of reincarnation is man's conclusion to God's spiirtual purposes. I do believe that we "become" a new creation. But I don't believe that we'll become a different form, that comes back as a different form, that comes back as a different form. and I definitely don't agree that we'll come back anything less than human. We were created in God's image . . .animals, objects are not God's image . . .
I don't see how reincarnation magnifies the cross. I see it turn more into a distraction from the cross than anything. What it seems to do mostly is raise more questions. Questions often lead to distractions. By pursuing all the knowledge that's out there on reincarnation, does it lead me closer to, further from or no change at all with my relationship with the Father? For me, the emphasis goes from Christ to "my" past identities. Being a follower of Christ seems to become a secondary issue.
What is my identity then? Is my identity according to my past lives? My success in this life? My hope for the next life? The assumption is that when you find Christ, your karma is broken and the repetition of returning to this life ends. "If" it's Biblical, why isn't it plainly there? It appears that one would have to add in a lot of assumptions to make it work.
I saw a comment about one of the "what ifs" dealing with the idea that if you were a man in a past life and are a woman now . . .or vise-versa . . .is that then the explanation of why people are born gay? And does that now mean being gay is now also acceptable by God as well?
WW, you stated . ..
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?
I find this an interesting question because I believe God "did" create us directly into heaven. Or at least he placed Adam in it immediately after he created him. But because Adam chose to live under the realm, in the tree of knowledge, that's the realm we now are also born into until we become born again ourselves, which is only a gateway to be able to see into the spiritual principles from which we originally came from
At the same time, I've found on too many occasions that I have adopted and embraced beliefs that seemed to make all the sense in the world to me at the time, only to turn around and walk away from them. So I'm not going to say with total absolution that this is a horribly false notion. Because God's ways are just too crazy for my mind to keep up with. But for where I am right now . . .it just doesn't seem to mesh with the patterns and principles that I see where all things point to Christ. Reincarnation doesn't seem to point to Christ, it just points to a progression of life on this earth.
Quote from: Nathan on February 08, 2011, 09:49:11 PM
This is an uncomfortable topic for me. I believe the idea of reincarnation is man's conclusion to God's spiirtual purposes. I do believe that we "become" a new creation. But I don't believe that we'll become a different form, that comes back as a different form, that comes back as a different form. and I definitely don't agree that we'll come back anything less than human. We were created in God's image . . .animals, objects are not God's image . . .
I don't see how reincarnation magnifies the cross. I see it turn more into a distraction from the cross than anything. What it seems to do mostly is raise more questions. Questions often lead to distractions. By pursuing all the knowledge that's out there on reincarnation, does it lead me closer to, further from or no change at all with my relationship with the Father? For me, the emphasis goes from Christ to "my" past identities. Being a follower of Christ seems to become a secondary issue.
What is my identity then? Is my identity according to my past lives? My success in this life? My hope for the next life? The assumption is that when you find Christ, your karma is broken and the repetition of returning to this life ends. "If" it's Biblical, why isn't it plainly there? It appears that one would have to add in a lot of assumptions to make it work.
I saw a comment about one of the "what ifs" dealing with the idea that if you were a man in a past life and are a woman now . . .or vise-versa . . .is that then the explanation of why people are born gay? And does that now mean being gay is now also acceptable by God as well?
WW, you stated . ..
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?
I find this an interesting question because I believe God "did" create us directly into heaven. Or at least he placed Adam in it immediately after he created him. But because Adam chose to live under the realm, in the tree of knowledge, that's the realm we now are also born into until we become born again ourselves, which is only a gateway to be able to see into the spiritual principles from which we originally came from
At the same time, I've found on too many occasions that I have adopted and embraced beliefs that seemed to make all the sense in the world to me at the time, only to turn around and walk away from them. So I'm not going to say with total absolution that this is a horribly false notion. Because God's ways are just too crazy for my mind to keep up with. But for where I am right now . . .it just doesn't seem to mesh with the patterns and principles that I see where all things point to Christ. Reincarnation doesn't seem to point to Christ, it just points to a progression of life on this earth.
What Nathan said. :bigGrin:
CHB
It may not important to the faith as such, but does help explain things, it might be a key piece that unlocks other key pieces, to discount it, because of fear or whatever, might lose, potential riches and mysterious knowledge about Gods plan.
I don't see that reincarnation means we will continually do such a thing for eternity, because God promises for us in Christ that we will receive immortal bodies that will not die, but this promise might not be for those who reject him, until the fullness of time, when God becomes all in all.
INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
Heb. 1:1-4
God was "incarnate" in His Son Jesus in a body of flesh.
1Co 15:40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
1Co 15:41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.When we are changed, is it is not a "re-incarnation" we will not be incarnate.
John 4:24 "God is Spirit."
We will not be reincarnated, for as far as I can tell that means we will have a human body(which from what I can tell is a "soul" and a soul is a living, breathing creature, something that can die, and that we wont do, for we will be deathless.
1Co 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:
1Co 15:53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
1Co 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up--to victory;
1Co 15:55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
1Co 15:56 and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law;
1Co 15:57 and to God--thanks, to Him who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ;
GOD IS SPIRIT
and that is what we will be SPIRIT.
AND THAT AINT REINCARNATION, reincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
I see there is another arguement here and that is whether man has an immortal spirit. I guess unless one does not belive one has a immortal spirit, or these days people incorrectly refer to it as an immortal soul, hence confusion arises on this topic. But unless you believe man has an imortal spirit, then reincarnation is seemingly impossible. So we would have to argue about the immortality of the spirit of man, before we discuss reincarnation.
Quote from: Micahreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope
:thumbsup:
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
Praise God! :bgdance:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
Quote from: CHB on February 08, 2011, 10:35:59 PM
What Nathan said. :bigGrin:
Don't chicken out C.
Answer my questions like I answered yours.
If you can't answer them then you can't even have a opinion on reincarnation.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
micah might have stated "in my opinion", which might have come across a little better, but I don't think disagreeing or having a different opinion necessarily means one is afraid or insecure, does it? :handshake:
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 09:30:14 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
micah might have stated "in my opinion", which might have come across a little better, but I don't think disagreeing or having a different opinion necessarily means one is afraid or insecure, does it? :handshake:
Sure opinions are what a forum is about. But I had hoped the opions are supported with a few verses. Or some reasoning that's not already discussed.
I understand :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
You are correct that I did not bother to read the thread, I find the pagan aspects and opinions of reincarnation found on a supposedly christian forum worthless for spiritual growth.
Why would anyone who is a beleiver even bother to deleve into the subject? I am sure there are other religions who accept that kind of thinking? Why not go that site a debate the issue.
As for being insecure, not so. The Lord has simply showed me the fruitlessness of such endeavors.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
You are correct that I did not bother to read the thread,
So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge...
QuoteI find the pagan aspects and opinions of reincarnation found on a supposedly christian forum worthless for spiritual growth.
So there are pagan verses in the OT and NT? Your claims of pagan aspect are based on nothing. Just because pagan religions have certain concepts it doesn't mean it can't be a Christian concept also. Just because the pagan Greeks had a god the God of the Bible is a pagan concept too?
QuoteWhy would anyone who is a beleiver even bother to deleve into the subject? I am sure there are other religions who accept that kind of thinking? Why not go that site a debate the issue.
Why would anyone who claims to be a believer is scared away by HS inspired verses?
Why don't you go to a forum that only discusses things that fit in your little box?
QuoteAs for being insecure, not so. The Lord has simply showed me the fruitlessness of such endeavors.
Yeah sure. I got a phone call of the HS today and He told me to keep looking because the verse posted in this thread are real...
Yes the verses you posted are real and if one wishs and has the desire to find what they want and desire to find in those verses to prove what that have a desire to see in them, they will see it.
And should you have really received a call from the (HS) as you call the Holy Spirit, then I believe you would quit this silliness.
INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.
"So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge..."
I am not judging I am saying the subject should be disregarded it has nothing to do with faith.
There was a great deal of pagan thinking/teaching taken out of Egypt that had mingled with the Israelites and the beliefs God had established, that does not make them anything less than pagan.
"Just because pagan religions have certain concepts it doesn't mean it can't be a Christian concept also."
Thus the fire of the Holy Spirit, the two edged sword, the refiners fire, the Lake of fire to get rid of that dross, wood, hay, and stubble. If dabbling in such things is your desire dabble away, I will not involve it with faith.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 06:11:07 PM
Yes the verses you posted are real and if one wishs and has the desire to find what they want and desire to find in those verses to prove what that have a desire to see in them, they will see it.
If someone doesn't want to see it s/he will not see it. So it doesn't prove right or wrong. A blinded person never knows s/he blinded.
QuoteAnd should you have really received a call from the (HS) as you call the Holy Spirit, then I believe you would quit this silliness.
INCARNATE 1) endowed with a body, esp. a human body; in bodily form.
Since you seem to overlook subtle hints: For me it has zero value if someone claims s/he got a revelation from God.
Why? Simply because the Internet is swarming with Christians that claim to have recieved inspiration. Weirdly enough many have opposing views. Many on this forum were once very sure about ET. It was just a fact.
Then they find UR and after a while they fall in the same trap of knowing things as a fact.
Quote"So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge..."
I am not judging I am saying the subject should be disregarded it has nothing to do with faith.
That is judged by saying the whole thread/concept is a lie. Pagan concepts. On Christian forum pagan is not a positive term. Not to say an insult.
QuoteThere was a great deal of pagan thinking/teaching taken out of Egypt that had mingled with the Israelites and the beliefs God had established, that does not make them anything less than pagan.
Correct. But the verses quoted are from a Bible not from Egyptian writings. The Jews are misguided. Not the HS.
QuoteThus the fire of the Holy Spirit, the two edged sword, the refiners fire, the Lake of fire to get rid of that dross, wood, hay, and stubble. If dabbling in such things is your desire dabble away, I will not involve it with faith.
But you involved yourself by judging this thread a several times. I would say if you don't like a thread either totally ignore it or make your participation fruitful by for example posting verses that totally refute the idea of reincarnation.
Refuting with verses :thumbsup:
Judging without even bothering to read :thumbdown:
Go ahead and do your thing. You ae correct about one thing for sure, I should have stayed out of it especially after I read your verses.
Those were some wise replies whitewings :thumbsup:
But just because someone cannot answer the questions does not make it true, but so far I have not seen anyone here offer any real knowledge, scripture or wise advice refuting reincarnation, most of the replies are based on emotional personal dislike. The only real possible refute was the scripture from jabcat who said
"it is appointed for man once to die"
Personally I do have knowledge that could be against the idea of reincarnation in part. By that I mean that this knowledge could imply that reincarnaion for the genral population would not occur, but it still leaves room for it to occur in some instances e.g Elijah reincarnating as John the baptist for a special mission, and perhaps babies who have not had the chance to live life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 05:41:50 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2011, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 09, 2011, 12:38:00 AMreincarnation is a faithless teaching of men without hope.
A statement of an insecure person who likely didn't even dare to read the thread.
You are correct that I did not bother to read the thread,
So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge...
QuoteI find the pagan aspects and opinions of reincarnation found on a supposedly christian forum worthless for spiritual growth.
So there are pagan verses in the OT and NT? Your claims of pagan aspect are based on nothing. Just because pagan religions have certain concepts it doesn't mean it can't be a Christian concept also. Just because the pagan Greeks had a god the God of the Bible is a pagan concept too?
QuoteWhy would anyone who is a beleiver even bother to deleve into the subject? I am sure there are other religions who accept that kind of thinking? Why not go that site a debate the issue.
Why would anyone who claims to be a believer is scared away by HS inspired verses?
Why don't you go to a forum that only discusses things that fit in your little box?
QuoteAs for being insecure, not so. The Lord has simply showed me the fruitlessness of such endeavors.
Yeah sure. I got a phone call of the HS today and He told me to keep looking because the verse posted in this thread are real...
"So you judge something you have no clue what it's about. A good step to increase knowledge..."
There is no knowledge to be found in the study of reincarnation within the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:01:38 PM
But just because someone cannot answer the questions does not make it true,
True. I'm not claiming reincarnation is a fact. I'm presenting verses and want scriptual feedback.
When I state that hell is eternal I will get swarmed with endless replies filled with verses and word defenitions that show I'm very wrong. But when reincarnation is mentioned... nothing. A few random remarks. But not endless lists of scriptures that people would show on a hell thread.
I find that odd...
Quotebut so far I have not seen anyone here offer any real knowledge, scripture or wise advice refuting reincarnation, most of the replies are based on emotional personal dislike. The only real possible refute was the scripture from jabcat who said
"it is appointed for man once to die"
Physical death. Second death. Spiritual death. Christians falling away death. Perhaps some Christians fall away 3 times in their life. That's a whole bunch of deaths.
But I agree James posted a verse. That's good. But not not the end of the discussion because verses can't contradict.
So the verses need to be aligned in some way. All verses are equally perfect inspired.
QuotePersonally I do have knowledge that could be against the idea of reincarnation in part.
Plz. share. Although some may have that impression I'm not only looking for verse that support reincarnation.
I'm looking for all relavant verses.
QuoteBy that I mean that this knowledge could imply that reincarnaion for the genral population would not occur, but it still leaves room for it to occur in some instances e.g Elijah reincarnating as John the baptist for a special mission, and perhaps babies who have not had the chance to live life.
The verses I quotes spoke of sin passing on to a next generation. Of course the could apply to just a handful of people but I think they are more general in nature.
Maybe it's you will be judged how you judge others. As an example a KKK man reincarnates as a black man to experience the 'fun' of being hunted down by the KKK.
Im sorry but I find no teaching of reincarnation in the Word of God. There maybe verses that a person in todays age may find to be understood that way, but other than God being incarnate in Jesus, I find no other.
Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."
I understand that the Father can put a "spirit" of a past person into one in the present, but that is just that, a spirit.
The soul that sinneth it shall die.
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 09:07:02 PM
Then you misunderstood me. I think :dontknow:
Who are you from a Biblical pov CHB?
a] A person of flesh and blood?
b] A spirit with a CHB coat?
a] Ok WW, now I am a person of flesh and blood.
Quote from: WhiteWings
If your answer is b].... I believe you are a woman? Say your spirit if put in a huge man.
Then what are you?
c] A new creation?
d] Same spirit with another coat?
d] hermaphrodite.
Yes, I believe I did misunderstand you. I see what you mean but nevertheless I will still be me and look the same. Doesn't reincarnation mean that you become some one different or something different? You are right in saying that we will put on a coat so to speak. It will just be a spiritual coat but it will be the same me as I am now and I believe we will be recognizable to everyone. I think we will look just like we do now.. {God forbid}.. but we will just be in spiritual bodies.
OK, say I die and come back as a monkey,[/quote
[/quote]Maybe I should clear up a few things first. I did post something about a Jewish belief that people get many chances and if it keeps going wrong the reincarnation is a lower lifeform everytime. Then it ends and sinner becomes dust.
What I answered to that post is what fits here very well too. How can a monkey correct any mistake when it can hardly think?
I can understand that a murderer can undo the damage by becoming a very caring person in the next life. But a monkey that only has two thought in his life. Sleep and eat a bananna....
Quoteare you saying , I will look like a monkey except inside I will be CHB? :grin:
I think this must a learning experience from a past life when I was really rude to women. Lemme think.... Crap I feel another reincarnation coming :laughing7:
Seriously, I can see the use of reincarnting as a person but not as an animal. Unless science is very very wrong about the metal capacity of animals...
So my answer is: In your next live you will be an angel too. :laughing7:
QuoteAre you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else? Now, why would God need to do all of that?
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?[/quote]
I have asked that same questions many times, the only answer I can come up with is, we need teaching to become like God.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Jesus was resurrected. People didn't recognize Him. He didn't look exactly as before.
e] It wasn't Jesus at all.
f] It was the spirit of Jesus with a new coat
f] Jesus had the same body it was just changed into spirit.
Quote from: WhitwWings
Yes, but why do you think that was? Jesus was beaten so bad he had skin hanging from his body. His face was so marred that he was unrecognizable. I guess if we chose to look different we could if we are spiritual beings, I don't know.
You can do better CHB.... :winkgrin:
Say your husband gets a really bad accident. Car crash every bone broken. 50% burn wounds. He dies a few days later. A month later I show you a year old picture of your husband. Would you recognise him? Do you think he people that knew Him for at least 3 years forgot how He looked 4 days ago?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)
I really cannot pick either one of these because they don't apply. You see the coat was mine all along I just put it on. Paul said we "have a tent in heaven" when this body is ready to put it on, it is mine to began with, not my husbands or any one elses.
Not a chance. :laughing7:
That's not a real answer... :mshock:
Try to answer my 3 questions. Who exactly are you....
My answers are b/d/f/h
Yours?
[/quote]
Well, I sure did mess up that post didn't I? Hope you can figure it out. :mblush:
CHB
Some scrips to consider;
When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. "He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)
Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)
But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)
I like that. Very good.... Praise the Lord :happy3:
Quote from: CHB on February 10, 2011, 04:10:34 AM
Quote from: WWAre you saying that we will still be human, or can we be something else? Now, why would God need to do all of that?
You are asking a lot of questions that are not in the verses. My answer is a question: Why didn't God create us directly into heaven? Skip all this earth stuff. Just be created as perfect sinless spirits. Why?
Quote from: CHBI have asked that same questions many times, the only answer I can come up with is, we need teaching to become like God.
Teaching. I agree. But there are always slow learners. So perhaps some need 2 attempts to pass the exams.
That's not taking away glory from Father and Son because they where the ones that came up with the teaching plan in the first place.
QuoteQuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
Say by some freak accident you and your husband switch bodies.
Your mind in his body and his mind in your body.
Who are you?
g] The CHB coat you are no longer wearing?
h] Any coat your spirit wears? (the coat you call husband)
I really cannot pick either one of these because they don't apply. You see the coat was mine all along I just put it on. Paul said we "have a tent in heaven" when this body is ready to put it on, it is mine to began with, not my husbands or any one elses.
I know it's a very difficult question. Very confusing. But in the Bible things are always about the spirit. The body often isn't seen of greta value.
Anyway :notworthy: for your answers.
Quote from: jabcat on February 10, 2011, 05:13:37 AM
Some scrips to consider;
When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. "He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)
Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)
Jesus returned from Sheol.
QuoteBut man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)
This is a much better verse.
Jabcat, I so appreciate you digging up those verses. I knew of none but at the same time, I saw no indication that we're to come back in other forms until "we get it right". I just don't see that as God's pattern at all. And "if" it is appointed for man once to die, how does that not also say what your verses have said as well.
I am one who doesn't see me as flesh only, but I see "me" as a spirit that is living in this body temporarily which my soul is evidence that my spirit is living here. It's been a while but there was some discussion as to what one's soul was and someone wrote that if you took a colored glass and overlaid it with a glass of "another" color, then a third color would appear.
That third color represents what happens when our spirit is overlaid in these bodies of flesh, our soul is that third color that appears. Which then answers the question as to why is it, if we die and these bodies return back to the ground and our spirits return back to the Father . . .why is it so important that in the end, we are given immortal bodies. If we're spirits, living in a spiritual realm, why would we "need" bodies at all?
And it's because "when" our spirits are overlaid with bodies, our soul manifests, we become complete beings. But if you threw reincarnation into the mix, my soul in this body would have a different identity if I were to come back in another body or even form. It adulterates my original being.
And again, the idea that we have to keep coming back over and over until we get it right . . .that contradicts the power of the cross in the fact that there's nothing we can "do" to gain righteousness. Just as there was nothing we "did" that caused us to be sinners, we're born into it. . .there's nothing requried for us to become saints as God took care of that as well.
If I keep coming back over and over until I get it right, then what was the reason for Jesus having to become the all-time sacrifice? There just are no patterns in Scripture depicting men coming back to get it right . . .And "If" Elijah came back as John the Baptist . . .does that mean that Elijah didn't get it right the first time? And If he didn't get it right, then why did God take him up in a fiery chariot then? Assuming that he did indeed just cross over from life to life without experiencing natural death.
Something that may be of interest in regards to sins of the fathers is the field of epigenetics. Basically the idea is that our genes are altered by our environment and those changes get passed down through the dna. Traditional genetic theory states you've got what your born with but the problem is the genome doesnt have enough genes to account for all the variations we see in humans. Its also a good scientific apologetic against darwinian evolution and mechanistic reductionism
:cloud9: I personally have always found that a better approach to uncover things is to press in to find what the obvious counterfeit (like reincarnation) is counterfeiting of God's truth. Satan can only mimic what God created/established; he is powerless to create anything new. My :2c:
[the idea of] reincarnation..is..[not true]
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 05:26:39 PM
Jabcat, I so appreciate you digging up those verses. I knew of none but at the same time, I saw no indication that we're to come back in other forms until "we get it right". I just don't see that as God's pattern at all. And "if" it is appointed for man once to die, how does that not also say what your verses have said as well.
I am one who doesn't see me as flesh only, but I see "me" as a spirit that is living in this body temporarily which my soul is evidence that my spirit is living here. It's been a while but there was some discussion as to what one's soul was and someone wrote that if you took a colored glass and overlaid it with a glass of "another" color, then a third color would appear.
That third color represents what happens when our spirit is overlaid in these bodies of flesh, our soul is that third color that appears. Which then answers the question as to why is it, if we die and these bodies return back to the ground and our spirits return back to the Father . . .why is it so important that in the end, we are given immortal bodies. If we're spirits, living in a spiritual realm, why would we "need" bodies at all?
And it's because "when" our spirits are overlaid with bodies, our soul manifests, we become complete beings. But if you threw reincarnation into the mix, my soul in this body would have a different identity if I were to come back in another body or even form. It adulterates my original being.
And again, the idea that we have to keep coming back over and over until we get it right . . .that contradicts the power of the cross in the fact that there's nothing we can "do" to gain righteousness. Just as there was nothing we "did" that caused us to be sinners, we're born into it. . .there's nothing requried for us to become saints as God took care of that as well.
If I keep coming back over and over until I get it right, then what was the reason for Jesus having to become the all-time sacrifice? There just are no patterns in Scripture depicting men coming back to get it right . . .And "If" Elijah came back as John the Baptist . . .does that mean that Elijah didn't get it right the first time? And If he didn't get it right, then why did God take him up in a fiery chariot then? Assuming that he did indeed just cross over from life to life without experiencing natural death.
Hi Nathan,
These have been my thoughts exactly, especially this part.
"if we die and these bodies return back to the ground and our spirits return back to the Father . . .why is it so important that in the end, we are given immortal bodies. If we're spirits, living in a spiritual realm, why would we "need" bodies at all"?
I know our breath, or spirit returns to God who gives it but I have heard preachers say that God would resurrect our dead bodies and put our spirits back into them. This just doesn't make any sense at all.
What I wonder is, what is this spirit that returns to God? Is it something that understands things, knows its surroundings, can operate on it's own? Also, what happens to the dead bodies that are in the ground? When Jesus was resurrected he was still in the body that was laid in the tomb. Otherwords, there was no body left in the tomb. Does that mean we will experience the same thing, or was Jesus the only one who gets to keep his body? Of course it is immortal now. If our spirit is aware of our surroundings and we are with God I don't see the need for a body that has decayed. How do you see this?
CHB
Good questions, CHB.
Quote from: CHBI know our breath, or spirit returns to God who gives it but I have heard preachers say that God would resurrect our dead bodies and put our spirits back into them. This just doesn't make any sense at all.
Isn't this what happened with Jesus? And, isn't he the firstborn of many brothers? But, we know his body was changed because no one recognized him. Yet, the wounds were still there. And, this by dispensation of God less we not know for sure it was him.
QuoteIf our spirit is aware of our surroundings and we are with God I don't see the need for a body that has decayed. How do you see this?
But, isn't this what God has promised us? Who would believe the body decaying in the ground has such a complicated code in each cell that it can be identified to a certainty of one in trillions? Doesn't that tell even the most hardened atheist something? What would be the point of that?
2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Awaiting the New Body ]
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
Jesus was raised in his same body. That s why the prophecy states no bone of his was broken, also I think there is another that says his flesh shall not see corruption. Also the angel said in the tomb , this same Jesus you seek is risen.
Also Lazarus came forth, he came forth in his grave clothes. I think this is to demonstrate that immortality does not = destruction, i.e totally new model, but immortality = enhancement or upgrade of existing matter. If one is dust which most are probably by now, then they would likely be resurected as the person they were.
I think that this is probably the biggest problem with reincarnation is that, resurection means many person could be resurected.
Take for example the resurection of those who are alive and remain, do they resurect as their current self, or do they resurect as sir Humphries who lived in 18thcentury.
Quote from: Molly on February 23, 2011, 09:19:11 PM
Good questions, CHB.
Quote from: CHBI know our breath, or spirit returns to God who gives it but I have heard preachers say that God would resurrect our dead bodies and put our spirits back into them. This just doesn't make any sense at all.
Quote from: Molly
Isn't this what happened with Jesus? And, isn't he the firstborn of many brothers? But, we know his body was changed because no one recognized him. Yet, the wounds were still there. And, this by dispensation of God less we not know for sure it was him.
Hi Molly,
Jesus was only in the tomb 3 days and when he was resurrected he had the body he was born with except it was immortal. I was referring to us dying and our spirits going on to be with God and many years later when we are resurrected our spirit being put back into the body this is a little different than what happened to Jesus. At least it is time wise.
QuoteIf our spirit is aware of our surroundings and we are with God I don't see the need for a body that has decayed. How do you see this?
Quote from: Molly
But, isn't this what God has promised us? Who would believe the body decaying in the ground has such a complicated code in each cell that it can be identified to a certainty of one in trillions? Doesn't that tell even the most hardened atheist something? What would be the point of that?
2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Awaiting the New Body ] For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
I guess what I can't understand is, why put spirits that have been with God for thousands of years back into a decayed body that will be changed anyway? I guess that is why I have leaned more to the idea that we will sleep till Christ comes back and gets us. I am still open to change though if proven wrong.
CHB
I think some will sleep, CHB, but we shall not all sleep
but we all will be changed.
I believe we have a spirit body, as well, that closely resembles our physical body. Remember Saul raising Samuel? They knew who he was. They recognized him.
But if you read the dry bones passage, they are actually resurrecting the physical bodies from dry bones.
1 The hand of the LORD was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'" 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"
--Eze 37
Quote from: CHB on February 24, 2011, 01:47:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 23, 2011, 09:19:11 PM
Good questions, CHB.
Quote from: CHBI know our breath, or spirit returns to God who gives it but I have heard preachers say that God would resurrect our dead bodies and put our spirits back into them. This just doesn't make any sense at all.
Quote from: Molly
Isn't this what happened with Jesus? And, isn't he the firstborn of many brothers? But, we know his body was changed because no one recognized him. Yet, the wounds were still there. And, this by dispensation of God less we not know for sure it was him.
Hi Molly,
Jesus was only in the tomb 3 days and when he was resurrected he had the body he was born with except it was immortal. I was referring to us dying and our spirits going on to be with God and many years later when we are resurrected our spirit being put back into the body this is a little different than what happened to Jesus. At least it is time wise.
QuoteIf our spirit is aware of our surroundings and we are with God I don't see the need for a body that has decayed. How do you see this?
Quote from: Molly
But, isn't this what God has promised us? Who would believe the body decaying in the ground has such a complicated code in each cell that it can be identified to a certainty of one in trillions? Doesn't that tell even the most hardened atheist something? What would be the point of that?
2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Awaiting the New Body ] For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
I guess what I can't understand is, why put spirits that have been with God for thousands of years back into a decayed body that will be changed anyway? I guess that is why I have leaned more to the idea that we will sleep till Christ comes back and gets us. I am still open to change though if proven wrong.
CHB
I have exactly the same question as you chb and Nathan also. A possible answer or at least an aspect of it, is that the raising of the bodies is for the benefot for those people who are left, so they witness the resurection of the saints and some might believe on Jesus and repent.
But I don't think it is merely for their benefit. I think it is as Nathan said, that our souls or our bodies carry information or experiences about ourselves that our spirit does not have, or may not experience life quite the same, without the body.
Having a body makes life more personal, perhaps if we only had our spirit body then, we would experience life more in simultude to water, that goes like the wind, and flows here and there, but having our bodies resurected we can have more direct local experiences and drink tea and eat fish with Jesus around a campfire, instead of just flying through the sky with our minds. So what I gather is that our spirit life, we think, but in our bodies ,we experience that thought.
Understand, we are being made in His image and likeness. With "His eye...in everyplace to behold the evil and the good," what must His face be like? Resurrection to immortality is a beginning necessary for ascension. (This shows the many claims that a dead guru is an ascended Master are false and that they have no right to be in us.)
Another thing better fitted to reality is that in the body of Christ, "We are members of one another." Rather than many bodies through reincarnation we have many bodies through the Spirit of God. In Hindu beliefs it seems reincarnation postpones the goal of transcending physicality. They seek to attain to an immaterial higher reality. Jesus, by incarnating and by resurrecting, sanctified the realm of embodiment.
There is salvation for spirit, soul, and body. The influx of Greek mysticism when the men who had studied Greko-Roman Rhetoric became the first "Christian" priests, paid for by the Roman Empire under Constantine, brought the shattering of one man into a hierarchy of parts.
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
Well, for me, I still think that for a soul to manifest, there needs to be a merging of spirit and body. And these bodies we're in are not currently eternal bodies, which then tells me that the manifestation of my soul is temporary as well. Yet my spirit will continue to exist for the duration until this realm has run it's course and we'll all have our spirits return to these bodies, but they'll then be imortalized FOR THE PURPOSE OF OUR SOULS TO MANIFEST AS A WHOLE BEING with which we'll live as living stones in the body of Christ on a corporate measure.
God didn't create a soul in which he then put in Adam. He created the container of clay and breathed into it his life spirit at which point IT BECAME a LIVING SOUL. The spirit of man is the image of God. The soul of man is the COMPLETION of who we are in God. It's the little green light on the front of your tv that is now illuminated to indicate there is power to the television. Without the power, the light no longer shines. Without breath, our soul no longer manifest. When you plug it back in, the light comes back on. When our spirit returns, our soul again manifests.
I guess you could say that's the difference between literal angels and humans. An angel can take on the form of a body, but a human can only manifest "in" a body. Thsi body is limited. It's confined to the laws of this realm. But this realm is temporary, the natural will not be predominant forever. We all know and sense that Spirit is greater than flesh, even though flesh is the predominant part of us. It's all we "see" with our natural eyes. But without it, we couldn't manifest our natures at all.
I don't think when we die we'll forever be just spirits. I believe we'll have bodies that become eternal through which our spirit manifests in the vehicles of our soul. I think I'm giving myself a headache in all of this . . .