Purpose of sin(or evil)?

[josh]

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

but what the true believer does
he does not practice sin
that is consciously choose the way of evil

but that is not to say as a baby believer he still has indwelling sin lurking
trying to confuse and mislead the soul
what to do is to renew the mind
to where one not only has the gifts of the holy spirit but has the gifts that come from the son...
1Co 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

NOW THE 7 GIFTS FROM THE SON VERSUS THE 9 OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...

Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us,

whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:
he that giveth,
let him do it with simplicity;
he that ruleth, with diligence;
he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Rom 12:9  Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10  Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Rom 12:11  Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 12:13  Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom 12:14  Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rom 12:15  Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

THESE 7 AS A FUNCTION OF A RENEWED MIND BELIEVER

NOW AS FOR THE GIFTS THAT COME FROM THE FATHER..THE PREFECTED
THAT ARE THE TRUE ORDER OF THE PERFECTED MIND
THE PERFECTED CHURCH

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

FEW BE THE PERFECTED BELIEVERS BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THERE BE A FEW...

1Th_5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Ti_3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Heb_2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb_5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb_6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb_7:11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesth

IN MY BOOK DUE OUT NEXT LIFETIME
THE PERFECTED BELIEVER IS NOT ONE WHO DENIES
THAT REINCARNATION IS PART OF BIBLICAL SALVATION
NOR WOULD DENY THAT THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS
WILL EVENTUALLY REDEEM ALL HUMAN SOULS
AND WOULD AFFIRM THAT BELIEVERS ARE THE ONES WHO WILL JUDGE THE ANGELS
so dont by into new age teachings that go for angels stuff over the christ...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:  You know, they base this "reincarnation in the Bible" fallacy primarily on the one scene where Jesus heals the blind man, who was blind from birth. They say to the Master, who did sin, this man or his parents? And because he was born that way, they mistakenly assume it means he brought that sin with him from his "previous life", else how could someone born that way have sinned to receive it, right?

What they don't take into consideration because they have no understanding of the Bible, is that generational curses is what the people of the day were talking about. They could only conclude two ways this could have happened from birth: the man or his parents. But the reincarnationists altogether ignore His answer, which was: NEITHER (thereby discounting reincarnation also), but this was done that the glory of God might be shown.

Notice that in Ephesians 4:13 that you quoted it says that until WE all come into unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect MAN (not men), unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. This means there is only ONE PERFECT MAN, and ever will be.

Knowledge there is not intended to convey head knowledge, but rather heart knowledge, as in being one with as an intimate act of relationship, just like the Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son.

It doesn't matter how we dress up the carnal mind, what trappings of doctrines it has, it's still His enemy, and it still has to go beneath His feet as such, and we still have to receive the mind of Christ by the washing of the water of the Word. There are no shortcuts, no works that will either move or delay the process, God is doing it all that no man can boast and say I did it. Blessings....

[Seth]

Hello Seth.   There is no fellowship without unity and I do mean unity. 

Fair enough, so if you don't even read the posts, how can you determine if there is unity or not? Are you looking for abject agreement with all you say as an indication of unity?

[donken]

Hi Seth.  No. I do read the posts but I certainly do not read them all when there is 30, 40, 50 100 etc.   I do read the initial post, get the idea, and then reply quite often "i think" on that theme somewhere.   But I am sure you know, even having a web page of your own, that wrangling about words, with politeness and sincerity, does not accomplish anything with people who already believe something.  The lord has to do it and I am saying, for what it is worth, that this is the year that God is going to finally begin to "judge" the church\believers\Christians.   As you may know, the scripture says that there will basically be no agreement and no real collective unity even of Spirit until Jesus comes.  He has his reward with him, {which is} to give every person what their WORK SHALL BE.  {Rev. 22:12}.

ALso I have mentioned that it is only AFTER the SPIRIT is poured out upon us that these things of knowing just what and how righteous our works are to be will be known by us.  Until then the world is a wilderness or... the church is the woman in the wilderness and is at peace with the devil because "she" does not know she has some devilish beliefs with her that she automatically and naturally believes that do not belong.

And, I am saying that THE SPIRIT is already here and has been pouring out for quite a few years now {Pentecostalism} and we are near the time of the new wine that is to be the everlasting gospel that will be taught to the whole world as Rev. 1 4 intimates.  No more time for fencing with scripture as the sword. 
Like Noah's day, not many yet believe this and will not till it becomes apparent to them/us/me.   

The first things Christ, as the anointing that breaks the yoke of the Assyrian does, is blot out OUR {believers} sins.  It is pretty obvious to us, I believe, that all the differences and opposing interpretations show we are not ONE spirit, ONE MIND, and ONE body, yet.  That is Christ's work now.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:   {the second man, the lord from heaven is a quickening SPIRIT  1 Cor. 15}

Act 3:26  Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

In passing, I have to say, I do not "think" this, i experience it.  I also realize what the probable response to my saying this is but I can not help it.  It may not be upon all right now, but it will be soon.  Like the sun that shines to the whole world but sometimes it is dark in one place while it is light in another.

We need and must have Christianity to be judged by God as HIS SON and change us all spiritually within in order to have the world and it's ways be CHANGED to the Lordship of the ways of God *IN* His people.  Many many people in charge of large finances and banks and the manipulation of the bogus stock market and the governing bodies greediness and so on, are professing Christians.  But  they are presently worldly in many many areas and are not doing a lot of the things Jesus said we should be doing.  God's inner judgment, making us participate in cleansing our temple each one, and keeping it clean, is what we all need.
That is the real temple cleansing done by Jesus when HE IS IN IT.  That process is the marriage and the marriage supper is the new wine, the hidden manna idea.   And of course, it is at the mercy of the readers as to whether they give this and many other things credence or not.  NO one can do or believe for another.
God bless, Ken

[Seth]

I am reminded of the 1st Council of Jerusalem where they disagreed on things, yet they listened to each other and came to a consensus as how to go forward. With your outlook, that seems as though it would be impossible to do with you. You aren't open to the idea that you could be wrong about something and you aren't easily entreated.

I think you are here to make Tentmaker Forum your pulpit for preaching. There are forum guidelines for how to speak with other members. I will let the moderators decide how enforce them in your case.

As for me, this is my last word on the matter with you. Peace.

[donken]

Hi Seth.   Thanks for your thoughts.   As your web page does, I share what I believe I have been taught by the Spirit, and am to live it.  What I shared here is open to be read by anyone who does so or even wants to, and if it strikes a chord with even one person, fine.  I would like to close with this, and I intend to stop posting now or very soon, If I or anyone ever ever says follow them, including me, then they do not love you.  We will never ever find Christ by following other peoples opinions unless they become ours and we follow the life style our good feelings and opinions cause us to believe.  Good only to all, otherwise keep quiet and go on.  Follow Jesus, not the entire scripture if we think God does or directs evil on purpose to anyone.

Follow Jesus and we will find that we are to be good only to all, with the wisdom of God being added to that walk.  Refuse anything the scriptures say or seem to say about doing evil to anyone, by man or by God.  Try it and see.    Thanks for your thoughts and intents.  I assure all, follow Jesus' WORDS as to what following HIM is, not even thinking about what he says will happen to those who do not follow him, and we will find that the things that don't follow Jesus are IN US and are going to be "evaporated away" over time, AFTER being bound for a while.  This is the maturing of the Saints.  Follow Jesus' example, that is what *I* say.


God bless, donken

[Seth]

Just to let you know, I am not saying anything out of anger or negative feeling toward you. I just view this forum as a much different place than my website. My website is a place for me to say what I believe, and there is no discussion, as I don't have a comments section in my articles. Tentmaker Forum is not my website. It belongs to someone else and posting here, I understand to be my privilege, not my right. As such, I try to abide, not only by the express standards for communication, but by the very concept and nature of a forum. A forum is a place for give and take, for discussion. If I post something and then ignore the responses, then I don't believe I would be keeping with the very idea of a forum.

My point is not to disagree with everything you said, but when I ask a question and bring up an issue, and then you are not aware that I asked the question, it demonstrates to me an attitude of preaching, not discussing.

[donken]

Sorry Seth.  Would you like to try again?  Patience is a virtue, I hear.  {g}.  And I never ever thought you were angry with me at all, ever.  Or anyone for that matter.  I take no offence at anything because all these discussions are not a new event for me and I understand the way we all are about what we believe.  I mean, no one sincerely believes something that they think is wrong or think may be differently understood.
I know that when someone believes something they believe sincerely it is correct.  We all do.

donken

[Seth]

Sure let's try again.

You said: THe natural man, the spirit of man, does not know God because the mind of that spirit is the carnal or worldly mind, thinking both good and evil can be done by God and be okay.

I would agree that the carnal mind believes that good and evil can be done by MAN and be okay, but with the main purpose of the OP and your quoted statement, are saying that the natural man believes that God creates both good and evil, and such a doctrine would not be believed by the spiritual man? That is what I am trying to clarify.

[donken]

Yes, God does not create evil.  Here is what I have been shown, no matter who anyone may think it is that has shown me.  I still have been shown it over many years whether one thinks the devil did it or God did it.  I still have learned it from "somewhere" haven't I, just like us all.  I say it is from God.. but... each will make their own decision and all have to walk their own belief anyway.  No one can do it for another and words will not do it either, unless they are words that are lived and are correct.

God does not "create" evil, but he does create that which we do evil with.  The definition of sin according to Romans 3 is "being short of the glory of God"

Anything that is not God in Peace and Holiness is therefore is automatically short of the glory of God.  Anything that is being made and is not yet finished is always going to be short of the glory or maturity it will be when finished\completed\ perfected.  Jesus needed to be perfected also.  When a clay figure is to be completed it is fired, or put in the oven.  If it pops or bursts because of air in the clay say, it was not a true finished product and has to be remade.  As scripture tells us, we are to be conformed into the image of a new man, a finished product.  Then we are or will be fired, automatically, by the things in the world that we may or may not be tempted by to fulfill in a "sinful\immature" manner.

When a human baby is formed {evolutionarily} in the womb, and is born into the world, they are naturally "empty" as in ignorant of where they are, who they are, who their parents are, what 2 = 2 is, etc.  That is "the darkness" that needs to be "scattered by the light".  This is a process in the world that takes many years.
The parents in picture, attempt to resurrect the knowledge and maturity of the parents that gave life to the baby physically, in their child.   This is the process of natural man {the child} growing into the adult or mature man, {Jesus} over many eons of time as ONE ORGAMISM, but many "cells\bodies".

Jesus is the example of our "mature condition".   We will be asked to walk in the world in these flesh and blood bodies and do no sin, even while we still have to eat etc. meaning the law of sin in our members needs to be "bound" but not yet "totally removed".

Our ignorance about God is the source of all our differences and our imaginations about demons and devils and rain gods and thunder gods and so on.  These are the things of the "darkness" and as scripture says, they will only be found in babylon when all is in order.   Babylon is our natural ignorance or imagination based upon our worldly experiences and what happens ONLY in the world\creation where creating is still going on.

Since we have not seen God and do not see {understand} God with the natural mind, Jesus is our template or example that we are to follow.

The kingdoms of man is when the child rules and all his ways and beliefs exist willy nilly until God begins to raise Jesus Christ up spiritually and mentally in us as we begin to walk in that maturity.  We need to know what is going on and who Jesus really is if we are going to be able to participate in following the Father in us like Jesus did.  Our example.\ of our completion.   Israel was never released from captivity to other nations by any of their "own" natural works.  They did not get free by "rebellion" and through killing and warfare etc.  God did everything that got them free, but... they had to believe and comply with God's methods.
Do no evil is Jesus' message, and then he shows us what the evil is by NOT DOING IT.  Whatever he did not witness as being his way or method or "mood" can we say, is not IN HIM, the Spirit of the Father IN HIM.
The things of mankind's methods and emotions and deeds that were not witnessed or done or used by Jesus through is suffering and death on the cross are the enmity that is IN THE FLESH.  The law of sin in our members".

The law of sin, the lusts of the flesh, have a purpose for the continuation and life of the physical body in the world that lives of it's own works, not being like God yet, until it is mature or perfected.   But we have used those things for purposes of doing evil and obtaining great riches etc. 

Gen_2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Scripture here tells us that BOTH trees grow or emerge out of the GROUND.  Good for food {experience, taste, emotional taste?}   We are to EAT of JESUS' witness, are we not.  And drink of his blood or life in the flesh, where he forgave all and did no harm or evil to any, etc.  Ie.. taste of evil and what it is like and see it, but not do it.  The well rounded mature Son of God must know both good and evil correctly to be like God.  But man as a child has thought God also did evil to what man considers bad people, while being some of that bad himself at times.

But... we as human baby's are naturally and quite automatically and normally dark and immature {ignorant and unfinished or not adult}.  These things are not created, they are IN THE THING {man} being created because man is not yet filled with "light and life as God's life is lived".

Like when a potter makes a clay cup, it is for holding fluids or something and yet it is empty, and can not be filled until it will hold that which is put into it.

God bless, donken

[Seth]

Yes, God does not create evil.  Here is what I have been shown, no matter who anyone may think it is that has shown me.  I still have been shown it over many years whether one thinks the devil did it or God did it.  I still have learned it from "somewhere" haven't I, just like us all.  I say it is from God.. but... each will make their own decision and all have to walk their own belief anyway.  No one can do it for another and words will not do it either, unless they are words that are lived and are correct.

God does not "create" evil, but he does create that which we do evil with. 

Ok, so let me show you a scripture, and I want to compare two statements, yours, and the scripture's:

Your statement: God does not create evil
The scripture: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

I have no problem with an interpretation of that scripture, but when you literally say "God does not create evil" and the Lord in the Bible literally says "I create evil," well I have to choose what to believe, because those statements are contrary to eachother. No matter how it is interpreted that God creates evil, the bottom line is that....God does create evil. The scripture says he does.

Anything that is not God in Peace and Holiness is therefore is automatically short of the glory of God.  Anything that is being made and is not yet finished is always going to be short of the glory or maturity it will be when finished\completed\ perfected.

I have no problem with that. But, God does create evil in the sense that he creates that which is short of his Glory. See, the OP's question is: what is the purpose of sin (or evil). My answer is that God creates both good and evil for the purpose of shaping and refining his creation. When he sent destruction through war for both the Israelites and their enemies, it was for a purpose.

When he, as in Romans 1, turns people over to their own carnal minds, or sends strong delusion that they should believe a lie and be judged (2 Thessalonians 2:11), he is creating evil for the purpose of judgment, so that those who wish to do evil will be humbled by its consequences.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (Hebrew - ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.

You see here the purpose of God creating evil, the clearly expressed purpose to humble mankind.

Israel was never released from captivity to other nations by any of their "own" natural works.  They did not get free by "rebellion" and through killing and warfare etc.  God did everything that got them free, but... they had to believe and comply with God's methods.

However, God sent them into captivity himself. He brought that evil upon Israel for 70 years, and no less. After the 70 years he sent prophecy that they would repent and God would release them from captivity. The point is that God created evil and set it upon Israel by turning them over to Babylonian captivity, for the purpose of humbling them unto repentance.

Do no evil is Jesus' message, and then he shows us what the evil is by NOT DOING IT. 

But creating evil and doing evil are not the same thing. That was my purpose of trying to clarify. You seem to be saying that someone who believes that God creates evil, when the Bible expressly says he does, is somehow an unspiritual man.

How can someone be unspiritual for believing what the Bible says?

[donken]

Hi. Seth.  Yes, this is one of the real problems for most Christians when we hear that God is good, or love, only.   The very fact that we can not believe that right off the bat and then let God show us that we are right {or wrong}.  We trust too much in how "we" read the scriptures just like Israel did.  They sincerely thought that they were correct and knew God.  Their belief about God that allowed killing "unrighteous" people was why they believed Jesus could be slain.  For instance, Seth, if we believed that WE as Christians {it has to be our own decision, not something written down}, if we as Christians should not and are not to kill anyone, then when Jesus came\comes to us, HE would not have died.  At least, not at our hand, is that not right.  I did say, IF we believed that way.  I do but understand that others may not.  But it is by OUR FAITH be it done unto us.

Since there is none good but one, then we understand that all legitimate goodness in anyone is of the spirit or seed of God IN THEM, which all have. {the good and the not good is man's natural way}.

What one could do if they were willing and could do it, is to believe something that is good, which God not doing works of evil is good, and let God tell you that He is not that good, and let God tell you that you could imagine something good that was "beyond" God's ability to be good.   Perhaps we should say, God I believe that you do not hurt or maim or kill anyone.  Help thou my unbelief {my inability to see it}.

The "evil" comes from all the parts or spirit in us that is NOT GOD.   The evil exists as all the unfinished parts of man.  Death and sorrow and sadness etc. is the vanity the whole creation waits for UNTIL the manifestation of the Sons of God, as scripture says.  This manifestation is not going to be an outward shining glory, it is not going to be able to be seen by physical eyesight.  It is inner entirely.  The inside clean makes the outside be kept in obedience to the "cleanliness".

The spirit of God UPON someone does not establish this obedience or a deeply true knowledge of God either.

The word create means many things, and "you" can pick what meaning you want to believe and that is what all people do.  That is why on your web page you deal with words and the interpretation from here or there, etc.  I applaud your sincerity and desire to show God is merciful and saves all, even if only at the END.
So, is God not merciful in between times?  Does he change.

Create also means to cut down, as in begin to eliminate, make smaller, etc.   Is that not what growth in Christ for each of us does?? Begins to eliminate the amount and types of evil we do "when we decide that something we are doing is not Christlike?   Cut it down, scripture says.

And he scatters the darkness by establishing light.    But in our birth he creates something that is already in darkness within, and is short of the glory of GOD that it will be when it is finished being created as HIS body in the earth as His son with whom He will finish all the rest of the creation from within it.
Through the son or temple of God with HIM in it with all the knowledge and ability and holiness to do it correctly, peaceably, and by stemming the violence of the powers of nature that are in the unfinished creation.

Man is created and is already dark and "short of the glory of God", being "empty" of knowledge, and then of knowledge in wisdom, and then empty of holiness.

So wisdom from God in full completely scatters the darkness IN US, our natural ignorance at birth.  And, our natural doing of things for our own selves to keep us alive and those things that are selfish and hurtful to others will be destroyed from within us as we become holy in peace, which is righteousness.

Isa 45:7  I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605 theseH428 things.

I will not be using any explanation of any word that is not a possible meaning of those words according to dictionary.  WE all choose our own God in that manner, and what we believe shows where we are at the time.

We can truly read this as saying,   I form or squeeze or shape the light {wisdom} into place and in doing so I cut down and eliminate the the ignorance. {death, sorrow, destruction, misery, etc.}   {I note for us that the light is not eliminated but is established and already exists.  That which is eliminated is not of God's way or nature\Spirit.}
I form the peace and dispatch or eliminate evil.     Are we not to be one with God and do HIS WILL.?  And we are to refuse the evil and choose the good in believing about God and about who God is and what God is eternally like.

God forms or establishes PEACE where there is no peace and in doing so "destroys" or eliminates all violence, the "spirit" of evil.

We could think of acts of murder, rape, sword fighting and killing by war, etc. and see if they are peaceful things.  Without peace and holiness no one shall see God.  That must be WHO GOD IS then, would you not say?

sa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I mold the light, illumination, and DISPATCH the ignorance, darkness, and I establish peace where there is evil and in doing so dispatch the evil away.  I hope we see that that is what is being done in us and by EXPERIENCE we know the works of GOD.  {hopefully we do}.

Anyone else reading these posts?  Hop in with your opinions or beliefs if you like. 
God bless, ken

[Seth]

Hi. Seth.  Yes, this is one of the real problems for most Christians when we hear that God is good, or love, only.   The very fact that we can not believe that right off the bat and then let God show us that we are right {or wrong}.  We trust too much in how "we" read the scriptures just like Israel did.  They sincerely thought that they were correct and knew God.  Their belief about God that allowed killing "unrighteous" people was why they believed Jesus could be slain.

It's not just that God allowed them to kill the Gentiles, and allowed also the Gentiles to kill them, he commanded it. The Bible says he did. So my only option is to believe that the Bible was wrong in saying that the Lord commanded it.

Perhaps we should say, God I believe that you do not hurt or maim or kill anyone.  Help thou my unbelief {my inability to see it}.

Ananias and Sapphira learned otherwise when they fell dead for testing the Lord. This was in the New Testament, mind you. Acts 5.

Deuteronomy 3
39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

The "evil" comes from all the parts or spirit in us that is NOT GOD.   The evil exists as all the unfinished parts of man. 

The spirit of God UPON someone does not establish this obedience or a deeply true knowledge of God either.

The word create means many things, and "you" can pick what meaning you want to believe and that is what all people do.  That is why on your web page you deal with words and the interpretation from here or there, etc.  I applaud your sincerity and desire to show God is merciful and saves all, even if only at the END.

This is really the crux of the matter. It has to do with READING vs INTERPRETING. I cannot allow any INTERPRETATION of mine put my words in disassociation with the Word of God. So when God says "I create evil," regardless of my interpretation, my words will still agree with the words of God. Hence: God creates evil. He kills and makes alive. He wounds and he heals.

Create also means to cut down, as in begin to eliminate, make smaller, etc. 

Create means to cause to be. Here is an example of God causing evil to be:

2 Thess 2
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned (judged) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Again, this is the New Testament. We have here, God not just allowing them to believe a lie, but SENDING strong delusion that they should believe a lie and be judged by that, who had pleasure in unrighteousness. Believing a lie is sin, and we have God CAUSING it to happen.

With respect to the word create in Isaiah 45, every instance is of God causing something to be: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_1254.htm

The word "bara" can mean "to FASHION by cutting." but that does not undo the fact that God FASHIONS evil, even if by cutting at something. In other words, through cutting at something, God fashions evil, inasmuch as he forms the light.

Man is created and is already dark and "short of the glory of God", being "empty" of knowledge, and then of knowledge in wisdom, and then empty of holiness.

But God didn't have to create man that way, did he? He didn't HAVE to send Adam into the world, to bring death into the world, and death by sin, did he? God chose to do that.

We can truly read this as saying,   I form or squeeze or shape the light {wisdom} into place and in doing so I cut down and eliminate the the ignorance. {death, sorrow, destruction, misery, etc.}   {I note for us that the light is not eliminated but is established and already exists.  That which is eliminated is not of God's way or nature\Spirit.}
I form the peace and dispatch or eliminate evil.

That is not what the scripture says, though. By sending strong delusion, God CUTS away at their ability to believe the truth, and therefore creates evil by cutting. In the same way, he can cut away the light to create the dark.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He does not say "I make peace to cut away evil." He says he MAKES peace, and CREATES evil. You can't redefine the entire word just because the presence of cutting is present. People make statues by CUTTING AWAY stone. Nevertheless, the statue is created. Same thing. God creates evil through the cutting away of something else.

[donken]

Hello Seth.   Thanks for your reply.   You yourself seek into the "idioms" of the word to make your case many times on your web page.  This is to make it agree with what you believe.  This is normal for all of Christianity.  But... there is a time I am sure, when you have been reading the scripture and all of a sudden, very quietly and clearly, like rippled water quieting down and clearing there seems to be another understanding of the words given to you to see things differently.

If this has ever been experienced by you, then I want to share that the whole scripture has to be understood this way.  But... if we believe that God does or directs evil to or against someone then we will not be seeing many many things that will remain closed.  Choose the good and refuse the evil in your belief about God.   Have you checked the meaning of those words for yourself?

Let me ask you.  Have you ever experienced God being angry with you or directing evil against you on purpose?  If you have not understood it that way, then you are going by letter that kills and not by Spirit that gives life.   

Seth.  Does satan have the power of death.  I know the scripture says it does.   So.  Do you believe God does the same works as Satan only somehow is righteous and satan is not.  If that is the case, how would we know them by their works\fruit?   It would be impossible and double minded to think such things.

Or.. do you believe that somehow Satan is kind of a hit-man for God?    Did you read about the prince of this world as who was coming when Jesus was going to the cross that i wrote about in another post?  The prince of this world... is man, let them have dominion, and all the kingdoms pictured as natural natured beasts.
Those who are named in Peter and other places as being against God are "natural brute beasts".  So.  If Satan not a natural brute beast or the way of it.  As Jesus said to Peter, get behind me satan, you do not desire the things of God but the things of man.  So.. who other than man desires the things of man.

Is this too nice, too simple, for all the scripture wrestlers who want to go on and on and on and never ever come to the knowledge of the truth.  God is LIFE ONLY.   If one does not believe that "yet", they will not be given to see it in scripture... it will be hidden manna for them.  I mean no disrespect by saying this, it is something that is true about all of us until we change quite a bit, as in we shall all be changed.

I will put the Stongs interpretation of the words create and darkness and evil here but I do not know if it will make any difference.

Even if one thinks God "creates" evil according to their own understanding of the word, they should notice that the light and peace is not "created".  In other words, evil is not of ETERNITY and GOD is an ETERNAL unchanging Spirit... meaning good only all the time {eternally}. 

Isa 45:7  I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605 theseH428 things.

create. H1254.   H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
   Choose your own word to fit your own belief... that is what all believers do even if they think not.   So, choose the good and refuse the evil meanings for God.

Darkness  H2822
חשׁך
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.

So, Seth.  What have you experienced from the Spirit of God in you.  Is he dispatching the darkness {ignorance etc.} for you.  If that is what you have seen or experienced then I would go with the Spirit and not the letter.  Believe God is good only and let him show you how he fulfills all those seemingly terrible calamity scriptures, which are terrible in deed when it is not God doing it, but man and the world.   Test God.  Let him tell you you think he is nicer than he really is.  Yes, there is an answer needed to about How God can be good only and STILL accomplish his purposes for man that he had from the beginning.

We read that the spirit of man can not know the things of God.  SO.. why would God be angry at them for not knowing what they are not able to know or understand.  Also, to know God then, God knows HE HAS TO LET THEM KNOW HIM FIRST.  Don't you think that is so.

Do you give a grade 12 graduation test to a person who is in grade school and blame them for not being able to pass it.  We need to be merciful and NON Condemning or we are not forgiving all men IN OUR belief nor in our teachings.  It is the CHURCH that is to be judged, and it is ONLY the son that is judged by God.  All must become THE son raised spiritually within by God before anyone can really know God.  That day of "good" judgment that gives us God's wisdom as our own wisdom as a son causes us to finally have "good judgment\discernment about all things" like our father does.

God bless, donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ok, donken.....here's my  :2c: on your comments.

Your statement: God does not create evil
The scripture: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


Let me throw this on the table. Peace that surpasses understanding, is His peace. The fact it passes understanding means, we can't understand what it's like, without experiencing it, because it's not in the realm that we can, apart from Him, touch into.

It is NOT, the absence of warfare. His peace, true peace, has nothing to do with the external at all, but rather is a part of His nature, and that nature is experientially obtainable when the following definition is met. That being; true peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit.

That being said, when the Israelites or Moses did outwardly what YOU would say was evil and thereby showing (according to your interpretation) that they didn't have God's characteristic of peace, I would say to you that as long as they were obeying the Spirit who IS PEACE, their flesh was not at war with the Spirit, and therefore they had PEACE, regardless of what was going on in the outward manifestation.

To say that they had not peace based on their outward manifestation, is STILL eating of the wrong tree, because eating of the "good" part of the tree (that which looks good), STILL WILL BRING DEATH TO YOU. You are still observing and making character assessments based on what you SEE.

I have had Him tell me to do things that assuredly "looked bad" to the lust of the eyes that hates to be seen in anything except as perfect according to the flesh's idea of perfection or what God will or will not do, say, is, ect., but because I KNEW that God had me to do it, I HAD PEACE and no judgment came to me.

A perfect example would be coming out of the church system. It makes you look like a heretic, backslidden, grasshopper Christian, and they are waiting for the supposed judgment to fall on you from it that never does (as long as you are being led of the SPIRIT), yet you have peace because the Spirit has shown you to do so and because of your obedience, the flesh in you is not warring against the Spirit. You have PEACE.

Another example would be what the world called irrational, ie. my reaction to being told I had terminal cancer that had spread to my other organs already. I'm hemorrhaging buckets, refusing any treatment save biopsies to prove it was healed by God already. Yes, he does use doctors THAT way sometimes too, to give Him glory. We can't prove He healed us, if there are no tests to prove you needed to BE healed. Yet I had peace because I had obeyed the Spirit and reacted accordingly to what HE said. Again, what I did looked bad, and "self-destructive" or "in denial". Perceived as a sort of "violence" against yourself.

The fact that God judged them when they did despite what His Spirit said, even when it could be looked upon as evil to us, such as kill the king too, and they didn't, and He judged them for it. So it should be obvious that evil is in the eye of the beholder, and the only one capable of making the determination of what that truly is, is GOD.

When Jesus walked upon the water (waters below the firmament/letter) the disciples thought he was a ghost. After healing multitudes, raising the dead, multiplying fishes and loaves, ect., they thought He was incapable of walking on the water???  Why?

It was because they knew He had broken several laws and they thought He had been killed for it in judgment. They didn't have the capacity (read Spirit and His wisdom here) to comprehend that by obeying the proceeding word from His Father's mouth, which is SPIRIT, He was fulfilling the laws PERFECTLY even though it APPEARED He was breaking them. He was walking ABOVE or contrary to the law, yet in so doing, fulfilled the HEART OF IT.

Note also that it said that if they had not seen Him (PERCEIVED HIM AS THE WORD THAT IS SPIRIT), He would have passed them by. This is how the circumcision of Abraham is begun, ie. circumcising the flesh off our heart, which is SPIRIT AND THE SEED/CHRIST.

We have to come out of the APPEARANCE realm to walk in the Spirit, which in essence is the fulfillment of being set free of the law of sin and death, EXPERIENTIALLY. And when you get a word of life from the Father's mouth to walk in, it is ALWAYS going to have opposition from the enemy, which is why the wind was CONTRARY to them after He spoke to Peter to GET OUT OF THE BOAT and COME, walk above the letter in the firmament (which is called heaven) with Me.

Jesus was beginning to walk in another proceeding word of life from the Father's mouth when He told them the manner in which He should die. Immediately, Satan took opportunity to speak thru Peter, OPPOSITION to the word of life He had received. It looked like a "good thing" no doubt to Peter and the others, to be concerned for His dying and even to try to prevent it, but it was the "good" appearing part of the WRONG TREE again, it was the APPEARANCE realm, and not the realm of the Spirit breathed word that came from the Father's mouth.

And the following is REALLY IMO before I get myself into trouble here.....But as for whether or not He creates darkness, that should also be apparent. Before He poured Himself into His creation, God is all there was.

And we are told that IN HIM, there is no darkness at all. It's not that it never was there, it's that HE TOOK IT OUT OF HIMSELF TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE. He is ever increasing, never changing (only in the fact He never changes the fact He is ever changing, ie. multiplying yet staying the same, dividing yet staying the same).

He literally had to "slow down" the light to create darkness, which is just slowed down light, like matter is literally slowed down energy. The creation we can see is the result of this, I want to "stop and smell the roses" aspect of God.

So took it out of Himself, just like He took Eve out of Adam, and the children of Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts. Darkness was simply a part of God that had not come into a PERFECT form yet.

It's not got any intent, evil or otherwise, until HE gives it one, it's like clay or like a reflection in the absence of light. The person in the mirror is still being reflected in a dark room, it's just you can't SEE with clarity exactly what is being reflected in detail, in the absence of light. Well, God wanted to shine a light on HIS backside to see what HE looked like from OUR perspective. It's like His shadow.

And like the 6 days of darkness AND light, as He looked it over, and He said, it is good, even very good. BECAUSE He literally saw and sees the end from the beginning. The reconciliation of all is quite simply, God calling His backside into a FORM like unto His FACE/ REVEALED NATURE. I will make you the head and not the tail.  :winkgrin:

None of us can handle His UNrevealed nature yet (darkness), because unless we are completely light as He is in the light, the darkness yet in us, would join itself to it to "create" it's own image out of the vain (means unemployed, ie. not being used yet) WORDS, and overcome the light, (instead of the light reconciling/consuming it) and thereby giving the vain words a purpose (to destroy).

Sort of like if one of us was face to face with the deep while it was void and without form in Genesis. The "mature formed" darkness in us combined with the creative power of the "womb" we have from being formed in His image, would have joined itself to the deep to give the deep, IT'S form and function. Life and death is in the tongue, but the tongue speaks out of the abundance of the heart/womb.

This is why we can't be trusted with all the creative power coming to the mature sons of God, until all darkness is removed out of our hearts. The echo of, "let us make man in our image" would be heard again, only the image birthed would be of four footed beasts, creeping things, ect., the unclean.

This is the reason we have to have Him as our covering, as well as let Him consume our heart, for out of the heart of man comes only evil. In other words, we have an oozing wound, an issue of BLOOD, that must be healed first. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

Hello Seth.   Thanks for your reply.   You yourself seek into the "idioms" of the word to make your case many times on your web page.  This is to make it agree with what you believe.  This is normal for all of Christianity.  But... there is a time I am sure, when you have been reading the scripture and all of a sudden, very quietly and clearly, like rippled water quieting down and clearing there seems to be another understanding of the words given to you to see things differently.

Why are you psychoanalyzing me. I am not offended, but can we keep this to the subject at hand?

Seth.  Does satan have the power of death.  I know the scripture says it does.   So.  Do you believe God does the same works as Satan only somehow is righteous and satan is not.

Or.. do you believe that somehow Satan is kind of a hit-man for God?

I believe God has power over Satan and I believe in the absolute Sovereignty of God. Therefore, I do not believe Satan is a free agent but that he is used by God to create evil. In another post, you yourself noted the various uses of Satan in the New Testament to teach man to be righteous, so I don't know how that makes Satan a hit man for God, but it does make him useful to God.

Is this too nice, too simple, for all the scripture wrestlers who want to go on and on and on and never ever come to the knowledge of the truth.

You want me to come to YOUR truth, not THE truth.

I will put the Stongs interpretation of the words create and darkness and evil here but I do not know if it will make any difference.

Even if one thinks God "creates" evil according to their own understanding of the word, they should notice that the light and peace is not "created".  In other words, evil is not of ETERNITY and GOD is an ETERNAL unchanging Spirit... meaning good only all the time {eternally}. 

Isa 45:7  I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605 theseH428 things.

It's not a matter of choosing the right word. I have given you CONCRETE examples of God creating evil.

2 Thessalonians 2
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What happens when you believe a lie? Evil results. Another example:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rather than instantly heal them, God gave them up to VILE AFFECTIONS. That's God's choice as an example of his wrath. He could very well heal them instantly, but chose not to. His sovereignty is revealed here in that by giving the slave over to his master, he created evil as a result.

Ecclesiastes
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

It's not that the evil travail just happened to come upon man, free of God's participation. GOD HAS GIVEN this evil travail to humble man. So, I have given way more scripture than a single verse to validate that God creates evil. He also kills and makes alive. He also wounds and he heals.

We read that the spirit of man can not know the things of God.  SO.. why would God be angry at them for not knowing what they are not able to know or understand.

The question of "why" can only be answered when you acknowledge that he was angry with them. If you cannot acknowledge that God was angry in the first place, then you cannot know why.

[donken]

Hi Seth.  Okay.  I guess it will have to come out in "my" wash.

God bless, donken