Draw near to God, God will draw near to you.
God hardened Pharoahs heart.
Some made of honor some for dishonour.
If i go out today and help the sick etc, is that God's will for me?
If I go out and hack off 20 heads with an axe, is that Gods will for me? Am I accountable? Or was it Gods will that I did that?
Romans 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
Each of us must give an account of OURSELVES before God.
Ezekiel 24:14
"'I the LORD have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
ROM
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."f
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
I just threw my bible off some innocent persons head.
Wasn't my fault. Didn't have free will you see. It was God's fault.
OR...I just threw my bible off some innocent persons head. It was my fault, i had the choice to do it or not too, it wasn't Gods fault.
1Rivulets of waters [is] the heart of a king in the hand of Jehovah, Wherever He pleaseth He inclineth it.
Did Pharoah have a choice?
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 7:3-4 says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs... and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you.
Yes, we have a will.
We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying. Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.
Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.
Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim. But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding. If that makes sense.
We have the ability to reason within any set of circumstances we are in. That ability to reason may not necessarily change the circumstances. That ability can change whether your path is one od destruction or life. A choice that sends you on a path of destruction cannot thwart Gods plan to bring you to reconciliation. You can continue on a path of destruction until the only choice left to make is one to accept Jesus Christ, it will be your choice from your will and it will be made willingly.
The fact that God already knows what path and choice you will make has no true bearing upon the fact that your will had the ability to make them.
I am only going to use the words Free will to make a point, not to use it in order to argue for or against it.
In general the term free will is not a biblical term. To argue that we do not have free will is unbiblical because you cann argue against having something that scripture does not say we do or don't have. To argue that we do have free will amounts to the same.
Either way it is an unbibilcal term that carries implications that can be different depending upon what someone thinks free wiil means.
The issue is what is the NATURE of our WILL according to scripture. And my previous post attempts to explain that nature.
:cloud9: As this is traditionally on here a forbidden "food fight" subject, please tread carefully so as not to incur a locked or deleted thread. Thank you....
Quote from: Lefein on November 02, 2010, 06:53:59 PM
Yes, we have a will.
We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying. Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.
Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.
Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim. But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding. If that makes sense.
Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?
Quote from: marcstalkspot on November 02, 2010, 07:27:10 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 02, 2010, 06:53:59 PM
Yes, we have a will.
We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying. Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.
Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.
Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim. But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding. If that makes sense.
Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?
Personally I believe that those descriptions are telling us that we are going to reap what we sow. If we hate, then the LAW of sowing and reaping causes us to suffer the penalty due for that action.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2010, 07:15:16 PM
We have the ability to reason within any set of circumstances we are in. That ability to reason may not necessarily change the circumstances. That ability can change whether your path is one od destruction or life. A choice that sends you on a path of destruction cannot thwart Gods plan to bring you to reconciliation. You can continue on a path of destruction until the only choice left to make is one to accept Jesus Christ, it will be your choice from your will and it will be made willingly.
The fact that God already knows what path and choice you will make has no true bearing upon the fact that your will had the ability to make them.
Good posts Paul, i always like hearing what you have to say, I agree with this....
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: marcstalkspot on November 02, 2010, 07:27:10 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 02, 2010, 06:53:59 PM
Yes, we have a will.
We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying. Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.
Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.
Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim. But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding. If that makes sense.
Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?
Personally I believe that those descriptions are telling us that we are going to reap what we sow. If we hate, then the LAW of sowing and reaping causes us to suffer the penalty due for that action.
Ok...i understand.
Quote from: marcstalkspot on November 02, 2010, 05:38:55 PM
Did Pharoah have a choice?
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 7:3-4 says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs... and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you.
I'm not sure if it is God who hardens Phaoras heart or whether it is Pharoa. It is assumed in this verse that God directly influences Pharoas heart to harden, but did he?
Could it be that God worked indirectly on Pharoa?
i.e this king is a gentile king, has no knowledge of God and no relationship with him, will he humble himself before this God and admit to Moses your God is better than me?
You see the difference here is that God does not show up to Pharoa like he did with /saul/paul
instead he challenged pharoa to a duel, a duel between his servant moses and the best magicians of Egypt. Like a typical king Pharoa does not back down, but hardens his heart in determined effort to usurp the God of Moses.
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Sounds more like that pharoa hardened his own heart and the lord knew exactly in his eternal wisdom how that would be accomplished, by simply challenging his ego.
This principle is also found in the new testament, where Jesus would challenge the pharisses to be more compassionate, but they would harden their hearts, probably thinking they do not need to be more rightoeus they are sons of Abraham, highly regared priests etc etc
:cloud9: Please read this link provided by Jabcat pertaining to the "banned topics".......I feel this thread title alone has crossed the fine line, and needs to be adjusted or I will have to delete it. SOME discussion is allowed as long as the "red flags" are not being "waved". Thank you....
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/announcements/free_willall_sovereign_and_trinity_discussions_8565.0.html
HOW can there be a discussion on free will and have the suject on the NO discussion list? Just how are "red flags " to be understood?
:cloud9: Here's the link spelled out.....by Jabcat
"There have been a couple of questions about it recently, so I thought it appropriate to post a specific "help" on these topics.
It's possible to talk about issues involved; Who we believe God is, how we believe He works, etc. - especially when focused on specific scriptures. I.e., "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", etc.
The main problems come into play when 2 things happen; 1) members start throwing around the specific "free will"/all sovereign, and Trinity terms (which become like red capes to a bull) and 2) members start charging at the red capes, and end up goring each other while their horns have become locked. They are topics that history has shown this happens with, that they somehow are emotionally charged topics for some. So it's moderated both tightly and artfully; as in, discussion is allowed, but in terms of, talking about concepts, situations, and scriptures, without resorting to the too-easy-to-reach-for hot button terms that just send too many straight through the rafters.
It was decided a couple of years ago that direct debate on these topics would not be allowed, and would be moderated very tightly - not letting things even approach the previous level of dischord.
Gary has stated he wants the main focus of the site to be very much focused on UR, and at some point, things really need to be brought back to that center.
There has been a very good spirit on the TM Discussion Forum for some time now, and the intention is, with everyone's help, for it to stay that way."
willieH: Hello... :grin:
Though there is a detail or 2 in this with which I might find exception, I pretty much agree with J. Preston Eby (and found this truth, long before I read his account):
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm#Man%20Is%20A%20Free%20Moral%20Agent
...willieH :cloud9:
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
I doubt it, unless the whale had on board sonar equipment :laughing7:
It's possible maybe he said "Nineveh" to the fish, but I think the lord directed the fish.
:2c:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer. ;)
Jonah didn't command the whale, but he certainly ran away from Tarshish in spite of God's command, of course in spite of Jonah's will, God used a fish.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer. ;)
Indeed, Jonah already rejected his destiny but God in his mercy gave him another opportunity to finish the job he had been commanded to do, thank fully Jonah obeyed this time.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer. ;)
Perhaps the whale could have spit him out anytime the whale willed to do it.
Or, released him out from the other end.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 10:02:18 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?
No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer. ;)
Perhaps the whale could have spit him out anytime the whale willed to do it.
Or, released him out from the other end.
So much for dominion over the creaters of the earth. ;)
Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.
I can go along with that.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.
:cloud9: Amen to that.... :thumbsup:
Hi Everyone,
Here are some videos by L Ray Smith and they are the best I have ever heard. There are 9 of them but the last 6, 7, 8, 9 are the best they clear up a lot of questions that have been ask and argued over on this forum about evil and the will of man. I pray everyone will at least listen to them each of them are only about 10 minutes long.
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=l%20ray%20smith%20free%20will&tnr=21&vid=282719683497&l=591&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D282719683497%26id%3Dc6cfa0075a1d46dafe31ed132afd2a7a%26bid%3DCIG2bnMvVri02A%26bn%3DThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dXOgBWnqVCyo&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXOgBWnqVCyo&sigr=11amtp7qf&newfp=1&tit=Free+will+%281+of+9%29+L.+Ray+Smith
Wow!!! that is the longest address I have ever seen. :laughing7:
CHB
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.
This dominion over animals is really interesting, and I think we have lost a lot of knowledge about it over the centuries. When you see someone like the dog whisperer at work, you know he has tapped into an understanding of man-animal relationship that most of us have lost.
Not that my dog has me wrapped around his little finger or anything. :laughing7:
I just wonder in wonderment. Its amazing the thoughts and ideas on man, just how God is or is not in the very center of ALL the movements of His creation. Should one consider that God is NOT the main force of ALL that goes on, then one gives a quality to God's creation that perhaps, God, does not have thought or will over the outcome of ALL He has created. If man can manipulate his creator, then we certainly do not have IAM as our covering and salvation.
:cloud9: I have seen times when He pulls back the veil just enough for them to see the Christ in us, and the beastly nature is subdued. But definitely dominion is coming in fulness..... :thumbsup:
I once read an interesting paper on this subject of Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. I believe it was written by a Jewish man. He talked about the manuscript in the original language (Hebrew) and how the hardening was actually a mutual hardening, not going against Pharaoh's will, but a strengthening of his will... if that makes any sense.
:cloud9: It makes perfect sense. He strengthens our bands, and reproves us with our own wickedness. :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 01:17:43 AM
I just wonder in wonderment. Its amazing the thoughts and ideas on man, just how God is or is not in the very center of ALL the movements of His creation. Should one consider that God is NOT the main force of ALL that goes on, then one gives a quality to God's creation that perhaps, God, does not have thought or will over the outcome of ALL He has created. If man can manipulate his creator, then we certainly do not have IAM as our covering and salvation.
Personally I have never seen that we can manipulate God, but each of us are so unique that God bothers to number the hairs on our head, our uniqueness also means that we all have different paths of learning. Much of learning is not through control. but through action and consequence.
We always hear "all things are possible" but then we hear how it is impossible that man has a will and can act according to it. We do and it still does not thwart God being all in all. It is the nature of things.
Most everyone does not want to be responsible for what they do, especiallly if what we do lands us in trouble. What better way to avoid it than to blame god, the perfect scape goat.
You have that correct, ever since Adam said the "the woman you gave me, she gave it to me." Yep thats us always puttung it off.
Harmony vs. the divine puppet master.
God does not want toys, he wants friends who choose to love him. Everyone will choose to love him, in the same way that everyone chooses to love being content, over being distraught.
It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force. There is a difference between ruling by flow that can be soft like a drizzle, or tempestuous like a hurricane when needed, and ruling by omni-dictation of every decision through force, or pre-programmed script that is the inevitable step by step, blink by blink fate of a person.
Personally, I don't see how God could have requited love, or fellowship - if God is merely a ventriloquist, and we are but the dummy.
If we are not dummies in the hand of God the Divine Ventriloquist, then we have a will, choices, and responsibility for them. If we however, do not have anything like a will, or choices, or responsibility, but are following some sort of pre-programmed script; then God is the Divine Ventriloquist, and we are but dummies.
If God is indeed a ventriloquist -- he is surely a very lonely God. A castaway on an island in the middle of the sea full of volley balls with faces painted on them.
<Edits made to this post; I forgot that Wilson was a volley ball, not a soccer ball lol>
I'm going to make a post that I trust all here can find as a middle ground. If you still see something s/w differently, that's OK, let's just continue to be careful how we express it, so we don't walk over "that line" (Hot Topic). I'm not even sure my post isn't slightly over the line, so if it is, bring it to my attention, and I'll consider your input on it. It really is a difficult topic to discuss within set parameters of the guidelines, but I'm trying :happygrin:.
Willi, referencing your posted J. Preston link, CHB, yours re: L.Ray, and Lefein, re: your post;
I believe all indicate God is in control;
most, if not all, indicate man is required to make choices;
we answer for those choices;
I'll add;
I believe God sets the conditions within which we grow, learn, and fulfill His purpose for each of our lives;
as a loving Parent, He provides us with some "space within which to maneuver" so we can strengthen our legs and our decision-making (learning obedience) but He hasn't lost control of His universe, so He sets parameters within which we can maneuver;
when it's His time, and we're faced with His overwhelming love, everyone's choice will be to love Him, to bow before Him and confess His Lordship - some now, the rest later. When every knee bows and every tongue 'homologeo' (profess, declare openly, speak out freely, profess one's self the worshipper of one, praise, celebrate), that's not a forced event. It is one brought about according to His timing, at the consummation, as He works all things according to His will; when all are at the end of self and joyfully proclaim their Redeemer.
There - I've tried to express my beliefs, summarizing main points of different views, while not stepping over the line. Whew! :reachout:
It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force. There is a difference between ruling by flow that can be soft like a drizzle, or tempestuous like a hurricane when needed, and ruling by omni-dictation of every decision through force, or pre-programmed script that is the inevitable step by step, blink by blink fate of a person.
On the conrary if men choose him by will it gives him so much greater glory, for it magnifies Love and power. Forced will simply magnifies power, the power to rule, even men can accomplish that.
The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it —
The world, and all who live in it — David
If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world —
and its fullness are Mine — David
"The earth is the Lord's,
and everything in it." — Paul
Am I not permitted to do what I choose with what is mine?
Is your eye evil because I am good? — Jesus
Quote from: lomarah on November 03, 2010, 02:09:56 AM
I once read an interesting paper on this subject of Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. I believe it was written by a Jewish man. He talked about the manuscript in the original language (Hebrew) and how the hardening was actually a mutual hardening, not going against Pharaoh's will, but a strengthening of his will... if that makes any sense.
:mthumbsup: That is how I see it as well. I think Romans 1:28-32 is one example of how God "turns us over" to the things we have chosen.
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 05:24:38 AM
Harmony vs. the divine puppet master.
God does not want toys, he wants friends who choose to love him. ... It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force.
Amen, Lefein.
If God has scripted everything everyone does, I don't know how these passages in Jeremiah could be true:
Jer 7:31 In the Valley of Ben-hinnom they have built the high place of Topheth to immolate in fire their sons and their daughters,
such a thing as I never commanded or had in mind.
Jer 19:5 They have built high places for Baal to immolate their sons in fire as holocausts to Baal:
such a thing as I neither commanded nor spoke of, nor did it ever enter my mind.
Jer 32:35 They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, and immolated their sons and daughters to Molech, bringing sin upon Judah;
this I never commanded them, nor did it even enter my mind that they should practice such abominations.
God did not create those evils ... man did.
Hi All,
God is the greatest influencer, inspirer, advertiser of all time. No one likes the idea that they are being made to do anything, but inspire or influence, now that is different to us. This is what Ray Smith explains in his videos. Say you are writing a book, because of someone elses experience. You would say they inspired or influenced you to write it. Because of things they did you wrote it but they didn't make you, it is the same with God. Because of the things he puts in our path and the things that influence or inspire us is why we do the things we do. We do nothing without a cause and those causes are already in force. Our human ego will not accept the idea that someone made us do anything.
Ray Smith said he ask this man if his wife did anything to MAKE him love her and the man said "no she doesn't force me to love her". Ray said, so your wife doesn't do anything that causes you to love her, how would she feel about that. Well, she does this for me or that...{can't remember the exact words here} and that is what I love about her...So, she does do things that make him love her. Same with God, he doesn't have to MAKE us love him just influences, inspires, and causes circumstances to come our way so eventually we choose the right things.
CHB
Delight yourself in the LORD and He will give you the desires of your heart. — David
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. — Jeremiah
QuoteOn the conrary if men choose him by will it gives him so much greater glory, for it magnifies Love and power. Forced will simply magnifies power, the power to rule, even men can accomplish that.
Amen thinktank :thumbsup:
QuoteGod did not create those evils ... man did.
Amen, Amen.
We are not free from influences, they are all around us, from the wind blowing to the annoying neighbors But on the other side of this if a man says he beat his wife to death because of her insistant nagging, he is then right that it was the wife who influenced him?
If the man cannot take credit for loving his wife, he certainly doesn't have to own up to bludgening her to death because she wouldn't go get him a beer.
We can not look at the speck in someone's eye with a log in our own.
When one looks with a faithful eye, one sees that the whole creation has been put in divine order from the beginning; and it had to be.
For if it were not there would be uttermost chaos:
FOR ALL THINGS ARE HELD TOGETHER BY HIM — Colossians 1:17
Say what you will that you decided what you shall wear today, did not God decide the weather?
Say what you will that you decided what you will eat today, did not God create the plants and animals?
Say what you will that you decided what is good and what is evil, did not God tell you these things first?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 04:52:08 PM
We can not look at the speck in someone's eye with a log in our own.
When one looks with a faithful eye, one sees that the whole creation has been put in divine order from the beginning; and it had to be.
For if it were not there would be uttermost chaos:
FOR ALL THINGS ARE HELD TOGETHER BY HIM — Colossians 1:17
Say what you will that you decided what you shall wear today, did not God decide the weather?
Say what you will that you decided what you will eat today, did not God create the plants and animals?
Say what you will that you decided what is good and what is evil, did not God tell you these things first?
Yes, our will does not control the weather. I have went outside without wearing my jacket.
God created spinach, I will not eat it cooked.
I have done evil, knowing it was wrong and I suffered the consequenses and of others that I affected, some chose hate, some chose mercy. God did not cause me to do the evil I did, nor did it enter his mind that I do it. He did however know I would and made provision so that I would not remain lost.
Many times I did not take advantage of help at various times, I suffered even longer, I thank God that his mercy never gave up on me, but my suffering was my doing and no one elses.
Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?
Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?
How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?
Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?
How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.
we all know that God created the world, but it's mans heart who chooses between right and wrong, good and evil, and evil is not God's will, but goodness and mercy are :2c:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?
Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?
How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.
I have learned to like green beans by eating them when I didn't want to. Did I then defy God deciding what I would like or dislike? no
Did God decide that I would do the evil I did, no, did he know I would do it, sure. Is that controlling him? no, did he make provision to hold me accountable so I would learn to never do it again? yes.
To believers who think God manifests the kind of control that decided that a killer would go into a home and slaughter a family, you actually have no assurance that it will not be you next. None.
Maybe you will strangle your wife, maim your children. Will you teach your children that at any moment God could cause you to turn on them and rip them apart? Do you teach little ones at church this?
When you go to bed at night laying beside your wife do you remind her that God could cause you to kill her in her sleep.
Truth is truth, if that's the truth preach it.
Quote
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Emphasised word; Temperance
In the CLV the same verses read;
Quote
2Pe 1:4 through which have been presented to us the precious and greatest promises, that through these you may become participants of the divine nature, fleeing from the corruption which is in the world by lust.
2Pe 1:5 Now for this same thing also, employing all diligence, in your faith supply virture, yet in virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 yet in knowledge self-control, yet in self-control endurance, yet in endurance devoutness,
2Pe 1:7 yet in devoutness brotherly fondness, yet in brotherly fondness love.
2Pe 1:8 For your possessing these and increasing is constituting you not idle nor yet unfruitful in the recognition of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Temperance in the King James Version shown here as "self-control".
In the Original Greek; verse 2nd Peter 1:6
en de te gnosei ten egkrateian en de te egkrateia ten hupomonen en de te hupomone ten eusebeian.
in yet the knowledge the in-holding(self-control) in yet the in-holding(self-control) the under-remaining(endurance) in yet the under-remaining(endurance) the devoutness.
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1466
___ ___ ___
It would seem to me based on the inspired texts, that it is very important to our Father that we learn the
-virtue- of Self-Control, of which there is no law against it. (Galatians 5:23)
I can do all this through Him who gives me strength.
Yet you can do none of it at all if you don't first get up and do practice it, or do it. To practice self-control, is to practice controlling yourself as a partaker and good steward of the divine nature of God that you have been given to practice, do, bear fruit, and bring increase.
I am dead; It is not I — but CHRIST.
This is us.
1Pt 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pt 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pt 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
QuoteI am dead; It is not I — but CHRIST.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and
joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 06:21:37 PM
I can do all this through Him who gives me strength.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2010, 05:52:17 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?
Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?
How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.
I have learned to like green beans by eating them when I didn't want to. Did I then defy God deciding what I would like or dislike? no
Did God decide that I would do the evil I did, no, did he know I would do it, sure. Is that controlling him? no, did he make provision to hold me accountable so I would learn to never do it again? yes.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
I am dead; It is not I — but CHRIST.
Your far from dead, your offended? dying perhaps, you still have a long way to go yet
One must take up their cross daily, to that which is evil. Problem is that many people confused and think that the Godly part of them needs to be cruxified, and so end up being a mindless zombie who enjoys nothing in life, because they have killed not only their self but also God within and their spirit man. One must have the wisdom from God to know what part of them needs to die, otherwise they kill their spirit, joy, peace, life in abundance, God given gifts and talents, I have had this problem myself. This could be just one reason why many christians look more like a member of the Adams familly than an adopted son of the living God
:2c:
willieH: Hi Tank... :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 02:11:14 PM
It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will,
Men do not "choose Him" and He SPECIFICALLY stated so --
John 15:16 -- and that process is already
ORDAINED to occur as is stated elsewhere --
Eph 2:10Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 02:11:14 PM
sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force.
Please... no one has noted it to be "grim"... it is an ACT of
LOVE by
YHVH to drag each stubborn sinner to Himself!
read the Scriptures, bro:
Men do not "come" sooner or later of their own "will":
Men cannot COME to Him to begin with, except GOD the Father
DRAG them to Him --
John 6:44 & 65 -- One that is
DRAGGED, ...is certainly NOT "coming" of ones own "WILL"... :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 02:11:14 PM
There is a difference between ruling by flow that can be soft like a drizzle, or tempestuous like a hurricane when needed, and ruling by omni-dictation of every decision through force, or pre-programmed script that is the inevitable step by step, blink by blink fate of a person.
On the conrary if men choose him by will it gives him so much greater glory, for it magnifies Love and power. Forced will simply magnifies power, the power to rule, even men can accomplish that.
It DOES NOT give GLORY to God, it gives "glory" to the "
chooser" for "making the choice" of HIMSELF, not of GOD... :dontknow:
Read of the OT deliverance of the JEWS... Did they "CHOOSE" to be DELIVERED? And became DELIVERED due to their "CHOICE"? Or did GOD display that it was NOT "up to Pharaoh" NOR was it up to "Moses" (who came "demanding" of Pharaoh SEVERAL TIMES)... but was strictly up to
YHVH, and His choice?
And because the DELIVERANCE was accomplished due to the "choosing" of
YHVH, and NOT of the JEWS... therefore done OTHER than in
LOVE for the JEWS? :mshock: Please!
If MEN are "choosing" Him, then MEN are getting the GLORY for a "choice" for which THEY (and most Christians DO) take credit for making... :rolleye:
It is THIS VANITY that Christianity subliminally then uses against the "UNSAVED" world... Boasting that THEY "accepted
CHRIST", instead of exalting the HUMILITY that is found in the fact that
CHRIST has given HIS (undeserved) "acceptance of them" --
Rom 5:6-8 -- and Then, immersed
IN that VANITY --- WRONGLY condemn that "unsaved" world to HELL --
James 3:6-10Please show ONE PLACE that
CHRIST DID "His WILL", Tank... :dontknow:
In the end, it is the biggest difference between Him and US... For HE always DID the WILL (commands/prophecy) of the Father... we on the other hand, disobey that WILL (commands/prophecy)
often...
That
CHRIST was always "DOING" the WILL of the Father, (according to you and others) therefore made Him a PUPPET of
YHVH, Tank? Or a ROBOT? (hey --- lets not leave "technology" out of it, after all it is another thing "MAN" claims in his VANITY, to be of "his OWN doing" -- :pitiful:)
The answer is: Of course NOT! ...He did the will (commands/prophecy) of
YHVH because He was FREE from the doing of His OWN (fleshly) "will"... :nod:
There is FREEDOM in doing and saying the
WORD... for such INVOLVMENT with the
WORD, indeed
creates FREEDOM in the one involved with
IT --
John 8:32-36If we claim to be following
His example... then we shall
DO as HE
DID... which included NOTING that He DID and SAID, NOTHING
of Himself --
John 5:19.30 -- John 8:28 -- John 14:10 -- When the
WORD is
KNOWN and one IS KNOWN of
IT, ...
IT MAKES one FREE... Free of what? FREE of SELF --
Gal 2:20 -- :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
God certainly did drag me, if it were not for my kicking and screaming along the way, :laughing7: there certainly are things I would have been better off not having done.
Again we get to the question WillieH, is God a divine ventriloquist?
Yes, it does give glory to God when we choose him, in the same exact way that it would give you glory when your wife chooses you, rather than adulterate herself all across the town with every man who might look at her funny.
You see, we have two perspectives;
A. God drags all of humanity, and indeed he does, but by aligning their will - showing himself desirable, showing himself to be "That's what I need!". Living bread looks awfully delicious to a starving to death man. And so the scent and hope of a fully belly draws him. All are hungry, and all shall eat. How glorious it is that God is such a handsome, and worthwhile deity, and so patient that he draws men with patience in due time, after his order by his wonders, and beauty.
or, the other option.
B. Divine Ventriloquist;
*moves man's arm to make him slap the child with a large board*
*causes woman to drown her baby*
*ordains the abortion of three hundred children after ordaining the government to make abortions mandatory in order to cut down on the population in the year 2130 after the new Dictator of France decides that every family can only have one child if they ask permission first from the newly formed Ministry of Homo Sapien Advancement after a bloody biological war between Britain and Spain in the year 2126 (hypothetical extreme example..but if it happened according to the Divine Ventriloquist principle...well you get my point)*
*makes a man sip iced coffee from a straw*
*makes man love him*
*makes mankind be intimate with him...* <-- uh oh...(*man makes a woman be intimate with him* is the same thing as *makes mankind be intimate with him...*)
___ ___ ___
There are two ways to drag men, by intelligent harmony, or force - subtle, or brute it is force none the less. God is capable of both, but man must have some form of autonomy and choice, or else God is a divine ventriloquist and rules by force, not harmony.
Luke 21:15
For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 08:14:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
I am dead; It is not I — but CHRIST.
Your far from dead, your offended? dying perhaps, you still have a long way to go yet
One must take up their cross daily, to that which is evil. Problem is that many people confused and think that the Godly part of them needs to be cruxified, and so end up being a mindless zombie who enjoys nothing in life, because they have killed not only their self but also God within and their spirit man. One must have the wisdom from God to know what part of them needs to die, otherwise they kill their spirit, joy, peace, life in abundance, God given gifts and talents, I have had this problem myself. This could be just one reason why many christians look more like a member of the Adams familly than an adopted son of the living God
:2c:
"Problem is that many people confused and think that the Godly part of them needs to be cruxified,..." Thinktank
Gal 2:20 With Christ, have I been crucified; and, living no longer, am, I, but, living in me, is, Christ,—while, so far as I now do live in flesh, by faith, I live—The faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up in my behalf.
I suggest there is not "confused' to those who KNOW Him. First off, the old man is dead Rom 7:9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died,
Rom 7:10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death."
So then I contend that these trials, percecution and tribulations, pains and sorrows that come upon the believer, it is done in the New Man(creature). What good would these troubles be to a dead man? What suffering can a dead man have? No, as Jesus was pure and undefiled as He suffered on the cross, so the New Man, the pattern of the Son.
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 08:53:34 PM
Again we get to the question WillieH, is God a divine ventriloquist?
Doesnt need to be...He IS IAM :bigGrin:
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 08:53:34 PM
Again we get to the question WillieH, is God a divine ventriloquist?
Anyone is welcome to believe what they believe... :dontknow: And as I see it, they believe what they believe, because
YHVH either REVEALS or VEILS them as "HE CHOOSES"...
For REVELATION of TRUTH is not due to US (our desires or efforts to "KNOW"), ...rather is HIS business completely... and is DONE BY HIM, for the GOOD of ALL...
As I see it, the "question" becomes:
Was GOD the "ventriloquist" of
CHRIST who
DID and
SAID...
NOTHING OF HIMSELF? --
John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10 :dontknow:
Or indeed, ...did
CHRIST ..."
DO" as He was ORDAINED/Prophesied to "
DO" --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Isaiah 61:1 -- Isaiah 53:3,7 -- Psalm 22:17-18 and many, many others -- being COMPLETELY FREE (not imprisoned or a "puppet") in every moment of that "DOING"?
If we are ORDAINED to the SAME FREEDOM --
Eph 2:10 -- then we WILL also, follow
HIS example which DID and SAID nothing of Himself... :dontknow: ...Not "DOING" as we have "ordained" by our "will", but as HE has ORDAINED of us, before we even "were".
That GOD is WORKING
ALL THINGS (which is Scripturally stated --
Eph 1:11), and ALL those "things" are WORKED according to HIS WILL (no matter HOW those "works" appear to us, whether they appear Good or Evil)... says it
ALL as I see it... :nod:
...willieH :cloud9:
Yes, there is peace in the garden, isn't there?
QuoteWas GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10
Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.
Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
QuoteWas GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10
Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.
Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.
You didn't ask me, but no He's not.
What is the first thing he does with Adam?
He gives him a choice and tells him the outcome of the choice. [well, ok, he gives him a 'command' but the command implies a choice to obey it or not.]
What is the second thing?
He brings the animals to him and lets Adam name them whatsoever he will.
The difference is--Jesus obeyed him in everything. But, that was his choice.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2010, 08:48:36 PM
God certainly did drag me, if it were not for my kicking and screaming along the way, :laughing7: there certainly are things I would have been better off not having done.
:cloud9: :laughing7: Me, too.....
Men do not "choose Him" and He SPECIFICALLY stated so -- John 15:16 -- and that process is already ORDAINED to occur as is stated elsewhere -- Eph 2:10
Quote from: thinktank on Today at 07:11:14 AM
sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force.
Please... no one has noted it to be "grim"... it is an ACT of LOVE by YHVH to drag each stubborn sinner to Himself!
read the Scriptures, bro:
Men do not "come" sooner or later of their own "will":
Men cannot COME to Him to begin with, except GOD the Father DRAG them to Him -- John 6:44 & 65 -- One that is DRAGGED, ...is certainly NOT "coming" of ones own "WILL"...
Opps it seems you have quoted me quoting someone elses words. I think those words were lefeins. Sorry I forgot to add lefeins signature.
I agree with what you said though, it seems we are dancing around the same subject, but yet not dancing to the same beat.
Men do not come to God in their own will for that would mean we would love an unseen entity. What happens is that God pursues each and every one of us, father reveals to us that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the saviour of humanity then we act, for many are called but only a few are chosen. Just because God calls someone doesn't mean they obey.
Who does the father reach out to today? All of Usa have heard the gospel message, yet only a few respond? why is that? Is it because God loves evil and wants people to be subject to bondage? Or is it because the person does not want to be free from sin?
Please take your time in answering that, I have no interest in debate.
It DOES NOT give GLORY to God, it gives "glory" to the "chooser" for "making the choice" of HIMSELF, not of GOD... :dontknow:
Some people might have that mentality, but very few I imagine. I have never met a christian that boasts they have accepted Jesus Christ as lord. If they did then they are in sin of pride and need to repent, just like the parable of the man in church who thanks God that hes not like the tax collector who is a sinner, but the tax collector humbles himself before God and recognizes his sin. God prefers the honest sinner to the self righteous pharisse.
Read of the OT deliverance of the JEWS... Did they "CHOOSE" to be DELIVERED? And became DELIVERED due to their "CHOICE"? Or did GOD display that it was NOT "up to Pharaoh" NOR was it up to "Moses" (who came "demanding" of Pharaoh SEVERAL TIMES)... but was strictly up to YHVH, and His choice?
They cried out for mercy though and God in his love, decided to rescue them. Why does God choose to rescue the Isralites, have you considered that? Is God a respector of people or of race?
Perhaps He choose the Israelites because they cried out to him for mercy.
And because the DELIVERANCE was accomplished due to the "choosing" of YHVH, and NOT of the JEWS... therefore done OTHER than in LOVE for the JEWS? :mshock: Please!
He delivered them because he heard their cries and acted out of love and principle, which is that those who pray get God to move, because that's how God set things up to be at least that's what I have read in the scriptures.
If MEN are "choosing" Him, then MEN are getting the GLORY for a "choice" for which THEY (and most Christians DO) take credit for making... :rolleye:
In the eyes of man its not that important they only receive vain glory a cheer here and a cheer there, but in the eyes of God, yes those who choose Christ are highly esteemed by God, for they choose and accepted his sacrifice. The parable of the lost son shows that the father accepted his lost son and sacrifices a calf, but yet hear what he said to his son, he said "son you have been with me always and all that is mine is yours".
As belivers we have acccess to God's heart a special privelage that those without Christ do not have. This is a fact of life, there are the haves and the have nots, get used to it.
It is THIS VANITY that Christianity subliminally then uses against the "UNSAVED" world... Boasting that THEY "accepted CHRIST", instead of exalting the HUMILITY that is found in the fact that CHRIST has given HIS (undeserved) "acceptance of them" -- Rom 5:6-8 -- and Then, immersed IN that VANITY --- WRONGLY condemn that "unsaved" world to HELL -- James 3:6-10
The problem above is pride and they need to repent, not the doctrine that Christ desires to save all, here and now. Where is the evil in Christ wanting to save all now? Do you think God is in heaven rejoicing when abortion happens, when murder happens? Gods will right now even this minute is world peace, it is men that prevent this from happening and the schemes of the evil one.
Please show ONE PLACE that CHRIST DID "His WILL", Tank... :dontknow:
I think when he raized Lazarus from the dead, possibly, for he seems to have to exlain to father why he did it, he never said that before, in any of his miracles.
Also another miracle he turned water into wine. He said it is not my time, but Mary tempted him to do it and he did.
In the end, it is the biggest difference between Him and US... For HE always DID the WILL (commands/prophecy) of the Father... we on the other hand, disobey that WILL (commands/prophecy) often...
Yes, so you are not far from my view at all, that we do have a will, that disobeys God, you are slowly getting this as the spirit of the lord purges away the deceptions.
That CHRIST was always "DOING" the WILL of the Father, (according to you and others) therefore made Him a PUPPET of YHVH, Tank? Or a ROBOT? (hey --- lets not leave "technology" out of it, after all it is another thing "MAN" claims in his VANITY, to be of "his OWN doing" -- :pitiful:)
No he was an obedient son and had a mind of his own, your the one who says he is a robot, because you say all his actions were preplanned or ordained by God from the begining and also say that mans vanity is also Ordained by God from the begining. So how can man be vain in his own deceit if God ordained such a thing? For according to you it is not mans vanity but Gods ordained command of making man vanity.
The answer is: Of course NOT! ...He did the will (commands/prophecy) of YHVH because He was FREE from the doing of His OWN (fleshly) "will"...
Yet was tempted as we are, but did not sin.
There is FREEDOM in doing and saying the WORD... for such INVOLVMENT with the WORD, indeed creates FREEDOM in the one involved with IT -- John 8:32-36
Don't forget the spirit of truth also
If we claim to be following His example... then we shall DO as HE DID... which included NOTING that He DID and SAID, NOTHING of Himself -- John 5:19.30 -- John 8:28 -- John 14:10 -- When the WORD is KNOWN and one IS KNOWN of IT, ...IT MAKES one FREE... Free of what? FREE of SELF -- Gal 2:20 -- :dontknow:
I hope so, we all stumble from time to time, but by their fruits you shall know them
Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2010, 10:13:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2010, 08:48:36 PM
God certainly did drag me, if it were not for my kicking and screaming along the way, :laughing7: there certainly are things I would have been better off not having done.
:cloud9: :laughing7: Me, too.....
ME TO :grin: :bigGrin: Truth be know, HE'S STILL DRAGING ME.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 08:58:18 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 08:14:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
I am dead; It is not I — but CHRIST.
Your far from dead, your offended? dying perhaps, you still have a long way to go yet
One must take up their cross daily, to that which is evil. Problem is that many people confused and think that the Godly part of them needs to be cruxified, and so end up being a mindless zombie who enjoys nothing in life, because they have killed not only their self but also God within and their spirit man. One must have the wisdom from God to know what part of them needs to die, otherwise they kill their spirit, joy, peace, life in abundance, God given gifts and talents, I have had this problem myself. This could be just one reason why many christians look more like a member of the Adams familly than an adopted son of the living God
:2c:
"Problem is that many people confused and think that the Godly part of them needs to be cruxified,..." Thinktank
Gal 2:20 With Christ, have I been crucified; and, living no longer, am, I, but, living in me, is, Christ,—while, so far as I now do live in flesh, by faith, I live—The faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up in my behalf.
I suggest there is not "confused' to those who KNOW Him. First off, the old man is dead Rom 7:9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died,
Rom 7:10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death."
So then I contend that these trials, percecution and tribulations, pains and sorrows that come upon the believer, it is done in the New Man(creature). What good would these troubles be to a dead man? What suffering can a dead man have? No, as Jesus was pure and undefiled as He suffered on the cross, so the New Man, the pattern of the Son.
It takes time to get to know a person though and their ways, at least in my experience. I have found that sometimes I thought Gods will was my ego and my ego was Gods will, it takes time to know Christ and to overcome deceptions of the heart that are sometimes deeper than we can possibly fathom, sometimes there are deep things in our hearts that only fire can reveal their ugliness. The fire presence of God humbles even the most wicked of men and is frightening as the fire reveals how wicked one is comapred to the purity of the almighty.
Don't forget though that Paul did not die to Self, but continually warred with members of his own body, to the point that he broke down and called himself the worst sinner that ever lived, so taking up ones cross and dying to self is suffering as a dying man, which often takes a whole lifetime, as well as the suffering of living a godly life who are often persecuted or vexed for being righteous.
If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.
By faith
:cloud9: Hey TT, I couldn't make sense of your post #68 and then it occurred to me that it was because you were answering someone else's post intermixed with your own. If you don't use the quote feature, could you please change the color of one of the respondents in the text of the message? Makes for a lot easier reading.....thanks :thumbsup:
I am dragged to God daily. Over the years he has pulled me along kicking and screaming. Today he drags me much like a child who doesn't want to go to school. This is by no power of my own. This I know as fact. I was dragged to repentence. I am being dragged along this course of sanctification. I am being dragged to faith, obedience and usefulness. Was I able to make choices for myself during this process? I believe so. That doesn't mean he won't use every bad choice I make to teach, guide and direct me. My God knows the ending of my story. I can not get there by my own will. My choices lead to prison, death, and destruction. Thank God he is in control. Thank God he is indeed sovereign.
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 06:01:11 AM
I am dragged to God daily. Over the years he has pulled me along kicking and screaming. Today he drags me much like a child who doesn't want to go to school. This is by no power of my own. This I know as fact. I was dragged to repentence. I am being dragged along this course of sanctification. I am being dragged to faith, obedience and usefulness. Was I able to make choices for myself during this process? I believe so. That doesn't mean he won't use every bad choice I make to teach, guide and direct me. My God knows the ending of my story. I can not get there by my own will. My choices lead to prison, death, and destruction. Thank God he is in control. Thank God he is indeed sovereign.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:25:00 PM
If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.
Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:25:00 PM
If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.
Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).
Me too.
But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.
Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.
Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 06:40:45 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:25:00 PM
If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.
Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).
Me too.
But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.
Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.
Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."
I can certainly agree with that. I'll tell you though Romans specifically throws me a few curve balls.
Romans Chapter 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
I have heard various thoughts on this particular passage but this has always read to me as Paul's struggles with the flesh. I don't believe he was talking about how he used to be. It's almost like this duality within his own spirit that he speaks about. I believe it truth because I feel it myself. It's like I could have written this passage. I believe this passage is partly talking about the purifying fire. There is little if anything more painful than to know and love God's law (which is indeed spiritual and good) yet feel this turmoil within you to break it. As I have moved through this process many things that once owned me no longer have power. With that said, there are still fleshly pullings I have to white knuckle control. How easy is it to quickly anger? How easy is it to allow your eyes to wander in a world of flesh? But, yet we are new creatures?
I agree with what you said. I know we are new creatures but we still have times when we act in old ways...are drawn by old things. But, I believe the difference is the fact that these issues no longer bring death to us. They are now used as a purifying fire in our lives.
That is my best take on it but would appreciate any other insight because I know there is a great deal of spiritual substance in this topic.
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
QuoteWas GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10
Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.
YHVH is God... and the Father and GOD of
CHRIST -- Eph 1:3 -- He is his HEAD --
1 Cor 11:3 -- and the source of ALL
CHRIST did and said as well as being above Him, as in conclusion,
CHRIST is subject to
YHVH --
1 Cor 15:27 -- not the other way around.
You did ask, and I answered the question... which displayed that
CHRIST admitted in HIS OWN
WORDS, that He did and said nothing of Himself, ...yet in a life lived which SAID and DID only what
YHVH decided He would do and say, ...Yet you do not percieve Him to be a "puppet"... :dontknow:
And when I claim the very same thing is occuring in ALL OTHER MEN, you say that if this method is (truly) applied to US, it means that we ARE puppets... That is double standard thinking.
Like saying its okay and NOT "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM" for
CHRIST to be limited to doing only what
YHVH says to DO and SAY, ...but that if our lives are IN TRUTH, enacted in the very SAME WAY, ...it becomes "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM"...
I ain't buyin' it. :mnah:
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.
Oh yes, it does...
If this method (of doing and saying nothing of Himself) applies to the GREAT EXALTED, ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... then it SURELY applies to ALL the lesser ones... That
CHRIST did and said NOTHING of Himself, and He was GREATER than are WE... surely places us in a position which is at the very MOST, must in EVERY scenario, be lesser than He...
So...
If HE did and said NOTHING of Himself and, ...He
IS NOT a "puppet" --- being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...
And that if the very same thing is true of US, ...how can it be concluded by you, ...that WE
ARE "puppets" being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"... :Chinscratch:
That's nuts. :laughing7:
As I see it... EITHER...
(1) ---
CHRIST was a puppet (doing and saying nothing of Himself) and we
ARE NOT puppets on the basis that we DO and SAY of ourselves... OR...
(2) ---
CHRIST was not a puppet (because He did not do and say of Himself), and WE
are not puppets either (doing and saying nothing of ourselves)... and that,
ALL SONS (including the FIRSTBORN) are the WORK of the hand of
YHVH God as the
WORD says we are --
Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:21 -- which is doing
ALL and saying
ALL, within
HIS Revelation of
HIS KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... :dontknow:
... willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 08:22:14 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 06:40:45 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:25:00 PM
If you are dying to self, as I used to believe, then I am continously kiilling a dead man. Self is dead, and a new creature are we.
Would you mind expounding upon that a bit? Specifically, in terms of sanctification or whatever term others use for the process of becoming Christlike. For me, my new creature has been 30 years in the making and the process still isn't finished (not by a long shot).
Me too.
But from what I can tell it does no good to continue to say that its the old man that is feeling the arrows of the enemy. The old man is dead. 1Co 15:31 Day by day, am I dying!—Yea! by your own boasting, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Cant very much die daily if your dead. Nope its the new man (creature) thats doing the suffering and going through the purging, the lake of fire, the judging.
Jas 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.
Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."
I can certainly agree with that. I'll tell you though Romans specifically throws me a few curve balls.
Romans Chapter 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
I have heard various thoughts on this particular passage but this has always read to me as Paul's struggles with the flesh. I don't believe he was talking about how he used to be. It's almost like this duality within his own spirit that he speaks about. I believe it truth because I feel it myself. It's like I could have written this passage. I believe this passage is partly talking about the purifying fire. There is little if anything more painful than to know and love God's law (which is indeed spiritual and good) yet feel this turmoil within you to break it. As I have moved through this process many things that once owned me no longer have power. With that said, there are still fleshly pullings I have to white knuckle control. How easy is it to quickly anger? How easy is it to allow your eyes to wander in a world of flesh? But, yet we are new creatures?
I agree with what you said. I know we are new creatures but we still have times when we act in old ways...are drawn by old things. But, I believe the difference is the fact that these issues no longer bring death to us. They are now used as a purifying fire in our lives.
That is my best take on it but would appreciate any other insight because I know there is a great deal of spiritual substance in this topic.
:cloud9: Learn to recognize YOUR thoughts, and take action over what you know is not yours. Most people don't realize that the enemies of our soul speak to us, and we can hear them. Not like in some Exorcist movie, but they come in as thoughts. Receiving the mind of Christ daily has to do with discerning daily "who" is speaking to you.
I always use this example to explain it and let people see what I'm talking about. Have you ever walked over a high bridge, or been on a high building, and if only for a FLEETING second had a thought about would happen if you fell, what if you jumped, or any other variation of that theme? I've yet to meet one person in 24 years, that hasn't admitted to that experience. That thought, was NOT you, although it "felt" just like "you", because we are used to (initially) receiving thoughts of that origin our whole pre-Christ lives (and for many, even after).
The reason it comes, is because Satan tempted Jesus with the same kind of thought (cast thyself down), and the servant is not greater than the master. So with the Word in us as our "horizontal level", and the Spirit as our "plumbline", we can "help" (thru obedience) do the works necessary for the Son to be formed (come to maturity) in us. My :2c: Blessings.....
Cardinal,
I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.
Wow Cardinal, never thought of that before. My mind has done this very thing many times. I have pictured in my mind what if I fall, get hit by a car, all sorts of things like that and wondered why in the world did I think of that.
CHB
Quote from: willieH on November 04, 2010, 09:54:06 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
QuoteWas GOD the "ventriloquist" of CHRIST who DID and SAID... NOTHING OF HIMSELF? -- John 5:19, 20 -- John 14:10
Well, you tell me...Is he/was he the divine ventriloquist? I did ask you after all.
YHVH is God... and the Father and GOD of CHRIST -- Eph 1:3 -- He is his HEAD -- 1 Cor 11:3 -- and the source of ALL CHRIST did and said as well as being above Him, as in conclusion, CHRIST is subject to YHVH -- 1 Cor 15:27 -- not the other way around.
You did ask, and I answered the question... which displayed that CHRIST admitted in HIS OWN WORDS, that He did and said nothing of Himself, ...yet in a life lived which SAID and DID only what YHVH decided He would do and say, ...Yet you do not percieve Him to be a "puppet"... :dontknow:
And when I claim the very same thing is occuring in ALL OTHER MEN, you say that if this method is (truly) applied to US, it means that we ARE puppets... That is double standard thinking.
Like saying its okay and NOT "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM" for CHRIST to be limited to doing only what YHVH says to DO and SAY, ...but that if our lives are IN TRUTH, enacted in the very SAME WAY, ...it becomes "DIVINE VENTRILOQUISM"...
I ain't buyin' it. :mnah:
Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
Of course, this question doesn't just apply to Christ only, but to mankind in general.
Oh yes, it does...
If this method (of doing and saying nothing of Himself) applies to the GREAT EXALTED, ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... then it SURELY applies to ALL the lesser ones... That CHRIST did and said NOTHING of Himself, and He was GREATER than are WE... surely places us in a position which is at the very MOST, must in EVERY scenario, be lesser than He...
So...
If HE did and said NOTHING of Himself and, ...He IS NOT a "puppet" --- being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"...
And that if the very same thing is true of US, ...how can it be concluded by you, ...that WE ARE "puppets" being manipulated by the "divine ventriloquist"... :Chinscratch:
That's nuts. :laughing7:
As I see it... EITHER...
(1) --- CHRIST was a puppet (doing and saying nothing of Himself) and we ARE NOT puppets on the basis that we DO and SAY of ourselves... OR...
(2) --- CHRIST was not a puppet (because He did not do and say of Himself), and WE are not puppets either (doing and saying nothing of ourselves)... and that,
ALL SONS (including the FIRSTBORN) are the WORK of the hand of YHVH God as the WORD says we are -- Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:21 -- which is doing ALL and saying ALL, within HIS Revelation of HIS KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... :dontknow:
... willieH :cloud9:
willie, another really good post. :thumbsup:
CHB
WillieH, our beliefs concerning Christ are quite different, and so the premise behind our terms is probably taken quite differently. But I'll try to explain;
You talk about Christ doing nothing of himself, and doing only what God decides for him to do - my belief would say that's perfectly fine, Jesus = God. Your beliefs have to answer for that somehow, and that is your journey.
But for mankind's case specifically, we are not Yahweh, and none of us ever will be Yahweh, so when applying "doing nothing of ourselves but only what God decides" becomes a problem if, (and I stress if) God is a divine ventriloquist (by pre-ordaining, or pre-programming every act, and blink, and sip of coffee a man takes, or even sin), and man is without will to act according to his own desires whether good or evil.
I have presented two options;
A. God is a Harmonious, the best way I could describe this is that we are dancing with God - we have wills, freedom of choice, and abilities, we are autonomous agents working through our circumstances, and thoughts, and leanings to make choices towards a, or b, or c, or none of the above.
In this dance, we must also move our own feet, and go with the music (spirit). Even if God leads (dancing term). In fact, the lead of God, is probably alot better described in terms of how one dance partner leads in a waltz, while the other follows of their own accord, but is harmoniously "dragged" through the steps in the dance. Dancing with God can be a beautiful waltz, if we choose to step faithfully with his leading as he drags us. Or it can turn into a wrestling match where we are dragged through the will of God as it unfolds, but fight against it, and end up having our hip disjointed.
or;
B. God is the divine ventriloquist who manipulates men's actions by pre-programmed ordinance. "I ordain that this man will sip his coffee, and he will do so because I shall make him do it."
The thing here, is that I want to stress the difference between "prediction" (He will sip his cup, I shall watch as he himself sips it) and "pre-programmed Fate" (I have decided that he will sip his cup, and so it is inevitable he has no choice, I have made him do it, it shall be done by my movements alone; unfortunately it is difficult to accurately describe a world in which autonomous will to act does not exist, a bit like trying to describe invisible colours). These are two ways in which something can be ordained, in the same way that God is either harmoniously dancing with us, of which we cooperate or wrestle against - using autonomous will to decide whether to dance or wrestle. Or he is ruling our every action according to his whim. If it is whim, then it is divine ventriloquism, if it is autonomy dancing with God, then it is harmony.
It is not a matter of whether or not mankind has a will, or whether God is a ventriloquist, or worse an illusionist who lets us pretend that we have autonomy, or freedom of choice (that would be God bearing false witness, and he has broken The Law). It has to do with who is responsible for their actions of evil.
If God is responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God has committed evil (sin) by proxy, and has made himself liable (or should be liable) to its punishment - man is innocent and sinless. But we are also then toys in the hands of an evil God. Though actually...he would also cease to be God anyway, because any being who is to be Supreme must be honest at all times. It is impossible to be The Supreme Being and lie, or be evil, or sin at the same time.
If God is not responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God is innocent, and it is mankind who is responsible. And here we need to be the adults and accept responsibility for our actions of which we will give an account for, and of which God will render according to our deeds.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
God will render to man according to man's deeds. Not God's deeds in controlling the man.
If man has no autonomy, then God is a ventriloquist - autonomy is the foundation for the ability to choose, or to have "will power". If man has autonomy, then man has "will power" and the ability to choose, even if that choice is not God's will, even if God in his omniscience pre-knows it (he already has a plan, but it wasn't his will; God will always get his way but that doesn't mean that he gets his way immediately, or else alot of the books of the Bible are in error because of "Rebellion").
So it boils down to two points; Are we autonomous, and responsible, able to sin. Or are we not autonomous - and therefore dummies that are not even truly alive (why live if you are a toy? how can one be alive when they are a just a sock for the hand of God to have playtime or pretend to have real friends?).
We also need to look at Sovereignty. Sovereignty doesn't necessitate absolute control down the the very act of blinking, it means that there is nothing that can over-ride the power of the sovereign - IE: No other king can take my castle, I am its sovereign. That doesn't mean that he decides when a maid's bladder feels the need to void, or when the cow in his barn shall go moo, however in God's case if he has the power to command soldiers, and servants - but they are autonomous agents whose plans, actions, and choices can rise or fall, or cause them to live or die beneath the sovereign will of their King.
Autonomy doesn't mean freedom from responsibility either, and neither does it mean total success. A man's choices, and plans in autonomy for good, or for evil are not guaranteed to succeed, and consequences follow for each choice, and man is not sovereign as God is.
It is of my belief and understanding that mankind is autonomous, and God is sovereign; that we all dance, or wrestle with God, but soon all shall be musical by the aligning of autonomous will to God's in the same way that the dancers are autonomous and free to dance or walk away - but the choreography is splendidly ordered by their cooperation with the beat and the Producer - who himself came to dance and show us how it is done.
Christ was the best dancer, and even his wrestling was elegant - we have two left feet, stubborn wills, and wrestle more than we waltz. But soon we'll know how to dance delightfully, and we won't have to be forced to do so, we'll dance by autonomous alignment in harmony...with not a single string attached.
Basically, I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy. (oddly enough the story of Pinocchio has alot of wisdom regarding God and Man, and wills.)
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 04:50:20 PM
Cardinal,
I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.
:cloud9: ? I'm not talking about "Christians who think they have arrived". I'm describing the process of Him being formed in us, until He is all in all, and EVERYONE is in that process whether they realize it or not. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Lefein on November 04, 2010, 05:36:59 PM
WillieH, our beliefs concerning Christ are quite different, and so the premise behind our terms is probably taken quite differently. But I'll try to explain;
You talk about Christ doing nothing of himself, and doing only what God decides for him to do - my belief would say that's perfectly fine, Jesus = God. Your beliefs have to answer for that somehow, and that is your journey.
But for mankind's case specifically, we are not Yahweh, and none of us ever will be Yahweh, so when applying "doing nothing of ourselves but only what God decides" becomes a problem if, (and I stress if) God is a divine ventriloquist (by pre-ordaining, or pre-programming every act, and blink, and sip of coffee a man takes, or even sin), and man is without will to act according to his own desires whether good or evil.
I have presented two options;
A. God is a Harmonious, the best way I could describe this is that we are dancing with God - we have wills, freedom of choice, and abilities, we are autonomous agents working through our circumstances, and thoughts, and leanings to make choices towards a, or b, or c, or none of the above.
In this dance, we must also move our own feet, and go with the music (spirit). Even if God leads (dancing term). In fact, the lead of God, is probably alot better described in terms of how one dance partner leads in a waltz, while the other follows of their own accord, but is harmoniously "dragged" through the steps in the dance. Dancing with God can be a beautiful waltz, if we choose to step faithfully with his leading as he drags us. Or it can turn into a wrestling match where we are dragged through the will of God as it unfolds, but fight against it, and end up having our hip disjointed.
or;
B. God is the divine ventriloquist who manipulates men's actions by pre-programmed ordinance. "I ordain that this man will sip his coffee, and he will do so because I shall make him do it."
The thing here, is that I want to stress the difference between "prediction" (He will sip his cup, I shall watch as he himself sips it) and "pre-programmed Fate" (I have decided that he will sip his cup, and so it is inevitable he has no choice, I have made him do it, it shall be done by my movements alone; unfortunately it is difficult to accurately describe a world in which autonomous will to act does not exist, a bit like trying to describe invisible colours). These are two ways in which something can be ordained, in the same way that God is either harmoniously dancing with us, of which we cooperate or wrestle against - using autonomous will to decide whether to dance or wrestle. Or he is ruling our every action according to his whim. If it is whim, then it is divine ventriloquism, if it is autonomy dancing with God, then it is harmony.
It is not a matter of whether or not mankind has a will, or whether God is a ventriloquist, or worse an illusionist who lets us pretend that we have autonomy, or freedom of choice (that would be God bearing false witness, and he has broken The Law). It has to do with who is responsible for their actions of evil.
If God is responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God has committed evil (sin) by proxy, and has made himself liable (or should be liable) to its punishment - man is innocent and sinless. But we are also then toys in the hands of an evil God. Though actually...he would also cease to be God anyway, because any being who is to be Supreme must be honest at all times. It is impossible to be The Supreme Being and lie, or be evil, or sin at the same time.
If God is not responsible (the cause) for the evil mankind does, then God is innocent, and it is mankind who is responsible. And here we need to be the adults and accept responsibility for our actions of which we will give an account for, and of which God will render according to our deeds.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
God will render to man according to man's deeds. Not God's deeds in controlling the man.
If man has no autonomy, then God is a ventriloquist - autonomy is the foundation for the ability to choose, or to have "will power". If man has autonomy, then man has "will power" and the ability to choose, even if that choice is not God's will, even if God in his omniscience pre-knows it (he already has a plan, but it wasn't his will; God will always get his way but that doesn't mean that he gets his way immediately, or else alot of the books of the Bible are in error because of "Rebellion").
So it boils down to two points; Are we autonomous, and responsible, able to sin. Or are we not autonomous - and therefore dummies that are not even truly alive (why live if you are a toy? how can one be alive when they are a just a sock for the hand of God to have playtime or pretend to have real friends?).
We also need to look at Sovereignty. Sovereignty doesn't necessitate absolute control down the the very act of blinking, it means that there is nothing that can over-ride the power of the sovereign - IE: No other king can take my castle, I am its sovereign. That doesn't mean that he decides when a maid's bladder feels the need to void, or when the cow in his barn shall go moo, however in God's case if he has the power to command soldiers, and servants - but they are autonomous agents whose plans, actions, and choices can rise or fall, or cause them to live or die beneath the sovereign will of their King.
Autonomy doesn't mean freedom from responsibility either, and neither does it mean total success. A man's choices, and plans in autonomy for good, or for evil are not guaranteed to succeed, and consequences follow for each choice, and man is not sovereign as God is.
It is of my belief and understanding that mankind is autonomous, and God is sovereign; that we all dance, or wrestle with God, but soon all shall be musical by the aligning of autonomous will to God's in the same way that the dancers are autonomous and free to dance or walk away - but the choreography is splendidly ordered by their cooperation with the beat and the Producer - who himself came to dance and show us how it is done.
Christ was the best dancer, and even his wrestling was elegant - we have two left feet, stubborn wills, and wrestle more than we waltz. But soon we'll know how to dance delightfully, and we won't have to be forced to do so, we'll dance by autonomous alignment in harmony...with not a single string attached.
Basically, I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy. (oddly enough the story of Pinocchio has alot of wisdom regarding God and Man, and wills.)
...and boys will be boys.
However, God seeks mature men to whom He Will hand the Keys to the Kingdom.
Ephesians 4:13
Hab 2:3 For yet the vision is for a season, And it breatheth for the end, and doth not lie, If it tarry, wait for it, For surely it cometh, it is not late.
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Quote from: Cardinal on November 04, 2010, 05:53:28 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 04, 2010, 04:50:20 PM
Cardinal,
I know some Christians who believe they have arrived. I can not judge these individuals because I do not walk in their shoes. Maybe they are indeed as close to sin free as one can come in this life. For me the problem isn't recognizing what is of God and what is of satan. I believe I know when thoughts enter my mind...the source. But, I feel this inner termoil between that which is spiritual and life giving and that which is carnal (that which brings death). I feel that battle in my members. More times than not the spiritual wins the battle. I can't say that has always been the case in my walk. There have been compulsions in my life that were so strong that I had no idea how to be rid of them. But, God has dragged me along this process of sanctification. I have not always wanted to come along. But, since I believed in Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have noticed that God has used each and every one of my failings for education, purification, and pruning. This process has been painfully slow in my life. I see progress but I certainly don't see perfection.
:cloud9: ? I'm not talking about "Christians who think they have arrived". I'm describing the process of Him being formed in us, until He is all in all, and EVERYONE is in that process whether they realize it or not. My :2c: Blessings.....
Agreed. The question is this...why is this process so hush hush? Why do many people who claim to love Christ so silent on their own personal failings and struggles? I have always gotten the impression that many of us try to act more spiritual than we actually are...and fail to acknowledge the fact that there are still carnal things in our being. Do we fear judgment from others? Do we want to be credited with something which is not ours?
I fear that there are many Christians who suffer silently. I think some of it revolves around this notion that we are new creatures...which we are. But, I believe that to be misunderstood by many. I believe many think that if we are "truly saved" then we always live like it. It's just my personal thinking but I believe the Christian community would be better served by those who are willing to be open and honest...serving each other, helping each other and asking for help in areas when needed.
:cloud9: I agree. IMO, I think there are many reasons why it is not discussed, including the ones you mentioned.
What I'm describing is the sanctification process, which also includes deliverance, which has gotten a bad rap by some in Christiandom who have abused and generally misunderstood it. Also, IMO, there is an erroneous teaching from those that think they have "arrived" and are already perfect, without having to participate in the process in anyway. IMO, these are those with faith but no works, the works here being defined as coming into agreement and participating with the SPIRIT of the Lord in the cleansing of the heart, and by extension, the flesh.
NO WAY could I have overcome myself at all, much less any of the things in my flesh, if the Spirit of the Lord had not had mercy on me and began to teach me about deliverance a mere 8 days after my initial conversion experience. I honestly don't know how ANYONE stands AT ALL, without it. :dontknow:
Also, IMO, part of the problem also lies in misunderstanding how the faith of the Lord works. Works without faith, describes those that have abused the deliverance process, taking it upon THEMSELVES, to "discern" what needs to be delivered from someone, AND when.
Faith is activated by listening to the Spirit of the Lord, and letting HIM minister thru us (including in a deliverance capacity), KNOWING that what He has spoken He will perform. But when you have most of Christiandom denying He even speaks, denying the "speaking" gifts, ect., there is very little room for Him to move in that little box they have put Him in. And they wonder why He doesn't "show up" at their meetings. :mshock:
And since many do not understand that we are a "fractional" triune being, they also don't discern that some parts are written to our souls, some to our spirits. We ARE perfected in Spirit, which is why our spirit CAN return to the One who gave it. But our soul is another matter altogether and until both are equally yoked, this body is a grave and is not glorified. Which means we wear graveclothes, and not the wedding garment, ie. Christ. My :2c: Blessings....
I was completely unaware that there are those of the mind-set that they have already "arrived" until Card mentioned it to me once before this.
Cut the days short, Lord Jesus.
In the meantime, I have to knock Adam back into the grave everyday.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2010, 09:30:41 PM
I was completely unaware that there are those of the mind-set that they have already "arrived" until Card mentioned it to me once before this.
Cut the days short, Lord Jesus.
In the meantime, I have to knock Adam back into the grave everyday.
WhY?
Because of people like YOU!
lol,
I'm only joking!
The devil made me do it!
Now now Beloved Servant, some believe that God made you do it. :happygrin:
Truth.
Choose today whom you serve.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2010, 06:17:12 AM
Because of people like YOU!
Why do you have to keep knocking Adam back in the grave everyday, because of me?
Because stubbornness and manipulation is an agitating spirit and an idol that I do not adore.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2010, 02:55:40 PM
Because stubbornness and manipulation is an agitating spirit and an idol that I do not adore.
Okay your right