The Free Gift

[FreeAtLast]

what does Free Gift mean today in all of our denominational churches ???
they will tell you that salvation is a free gift indeed--but what do they add on to it afterwards.
They tell you that you have to say the sinner's prayer or you cant be saved.
They tell you that your works are what gets you into heaven.
Even some that are closer to the truth will tell you that Salvation is of The Lord-and that He even gives you the Faith of Yahshua--But then they start adding on lists of things you must do in order to be worthy to receive it like you must seek Yah,even come to church everytime the door is open,and all sorts of things to do.

Don't get me wrong all these things are good for us to do in the right manner--but they will in NO wise make us worthy to receive Salvation and Faith.
These things all fall under our own works without the Spirit guiding us to do so.

Why is  it so hard for man to accept UR ?? Part of the problem is that most in churches have been engrained with so much false teaching that they cant see any thing else other than that.Another problem is that they are scared of losing all their friends and family and church family to even study such a doctrine that the churches call heresy,And  man also has a hard time understanding that he doesn't have to do NOTHING,but man is so guided towards doing something to attain something and that he also wants glory and honor to be seen among men as something Good and Holy.

These are but a few of some reasons that man is in the current state that he is in today in and out of churches.

Roman's 5:18 states by the Righteousness of Yahshua the FREE GIFT came upon ALL Men unto Justification of Life.
Was the Salvation really free ? NO in one sense--Blood had to be shed for the remission of Sins--Someone had to pay for it !!!!
our Master Yahshua cried on the cross IT IS FINISHED(Paid in Full)For the World
What was man saved from one would ask?? well the penalty for adam's Sin was DEATH--all were made sinners and would have to Die(DEATH)
Thanks be to Yahshua that ALL can now be Raised unto Life--Man was saved from DEATH.

Some will make Adam's Transgression more powerful than Yahshua's Atonement--SHAME on them all(I used to be one of them)
the many that were made sinners and were to Die--did not sin after Adam's transgression but all men was placed in Adam
the many that shall be made Righteousness--they cant do anything to receive this FREE Gift from the Father--all men placed in Yahshua

By Grace are we saved through Faith--not of our own doings or works--it is a free gift to Man from Yah PAID in FULL by Yahshua our Master!!!

Thanks be unto our Father and his Son that since man has received the FREE Gift and now shall Live --ALL Mankind will be drawn(Dragged) to Yahshua!!!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen!  :thumbsup:

[donken]

Hi.  I would say that the free gift is going to be eternal life.  But like all gifts, it has responsibilities on how to "keep it" without damaging it.

A child at 16 may be given a car, without paying for it, but he will not be able to have the car long if he does not drive it maturely and responsibly and take care of it

So, if a gift is free, as it is, how come it comes BY FAITH.   WE are to be the very same grace, and it is the grace that the Spirit of Life really is, that comes through a faith that becomes a lifestyle and endurance until it is established immovable.

God bless, donken

[FreeAtLast]

I truly believe all have been given Life from Yahshua.
Adam brought forth Death unto all mankind
Yahshua brought forth Life unto all mankind

Life now reigns where Death did before.
in essence that brings the judgement of mankind's  works and deeds in his life---whether good or bad

All mankind will be raised unto Life and be judged accordingly.

We know that even the unbelievers will have eternal life because DEATH is destroyed.

So that leads some to ask--what KIND of Life will both Believers and unbelievers have in the Aion  Life and Aion  Punishment(Correction)
Both groups of people are alive indeed.

I do believe that it denotes the type of Life your going to have for the whether Aion Life or Aion Correction--both are people that have life from the dead.

Truly those who have been given The Faith of Yahshua and hold fast that Faith until they finish their race(as paul stated)will have Aion Life(Abundant Life).
Those unbelievers  will have part with the Aion Correction until their time of correction is fulfilled(Chastening Life)

Both have Life because of Yahshua ---BUT don't have the same quality of Life---


Just some thoughts   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

My perspective. Those who abide in sin are not alive, they are dead. The free gift is when spiritual life (freedom from sin by the Spirit) abides in man by God's choice. Not everyone is saved today, because some still abide in death.

If to be carnally minded is death, and people are still carnally minded, are they alive or dead? I believe they are dead. To be alive is to be rid of the carnal mind, which is an ongoing process until the flesh is totally dead, both in the mind and literally.

The free gift, is how that God chooses who to give his Spirit to, and does not allow them to be sifted by the Devil. Eventually, everyone will have received this free gift and will be made alive in Christ.

[donken]

Any thoughts on Dead in Jesus and Dead in Christ.?  Is there a difference in meaning\understanding??

Rom_8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up **Jesus from the dead*** dwell in you, he that raised up **Christ from the dead** shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth **in** you.


Joh_11:13  Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
1Th_4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which **sleep in Jesus** will God bring with him.

Col_2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead **with Christ** from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col_3:3  For ye **are dead**, and your life is hid with Christ **in** God.
1Th_4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead **in Christ** shall rise first:

Gal_2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then ** Christ is dead** in vain.

Rom_8:11  But if the Spirit of him that0** raised up Jesus** from the dead dwell in you, he that **raised up Christ** from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth **in** you.

Is not the body what the creation is all about, because Christ always "is".   Or is that not so??

Rom_6:8  Now if we be dead **with** Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2Co_5:19  To wit, that **God was in Christ***, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Gal_3:17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Is there a difference between the witness of Jesus and the witness BY Christ, or the witness of Jesus BY CHRIST "in us".

Can there be a verbal witness of Jesus and his story by believers who are not a witness of the righteousness of God?   1 Cor. 3:1 - 3.  First is natural, even for witnessing Jesus verbally only, and in lifestyle example.

So, when was Jesus able to witness God, before or after the event spoken of in the scriptures just below.

Mat_3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the **Spirit of God** descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mar_1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and **the Spirit** like a dove descending upon him:
Luk_3:22  And the **Holy Ghost** descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Joh_1:32  And John bare record, saying, I saw **the Spirit** descending **from heaven** like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Was Jesus "one" with God from birth as a baby.  I think we could see these things in another light, if we are peaceful about it.

We are told "we" are given the "earnest" of the spirit.  Ie.. God gives these things by "measure", but eventually all will have the full measure.

Joh_3:34  For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.   {whom he sends}

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, **when** the times of refreshing shall come **from** the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he **shall** send Jesus Christ, which **before was {only} preached** unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive***until*** the times of restitution of all things**, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Chewy things???   Donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Elaborate? Your meaning is as clear as mud to me.....thanks.....

[donken]

Hi.  Jesus needed to be, and was baptized with the Holy Spirit as an adult man.  He was not one with the father as a baby and child, just like we can not be one with the Father while we are a child either.

Here is a prophetic scripture that I see as being for some people today.   

yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Luk_11:44  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

After His resurrection in people today.

Jesus was in all points tempted like as we, meaning Jesus, who was the body and not the Spirit of God, was not one with God as a child and had the very same flesh body we all still have today.    God is in Christ, not was in Jesus at his birth as a baby. 

God is in the anointing we can say.   2Co_5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Jesus "became" the anointed or Christ, I believe.  After all, it is our body, the former old man body with the lusts {law of sin} in it that is to be the body "of Christ"

Scripture tells us, I believe, in the some of the scriptures quoted in my last post above, that Jesus being raised from the dead is not the same as Christ being raised from the dead or non existence in the world.   The pouring out of the spirit upon all flesh is Christ raised from the dead or from not being fully existent in the world in times past to beginning to come into the world now line upon line.   In the last days *I* shall pour out of my spirit upon ALL flesh, Acts 2 says.

The night time is when the witness of Jesus goes forth through verbal witnessing and teachings, but not BY THE SPIRIT, Christ.  Otherwise there would be no need to have the spirit "poured out" if it was always here as "the anointing" of God, and it is done by Gods' timing.

The night time witness is a carnally understood and believed witness, in word but not in deed.

1Co_3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.   
Rev_22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 says that Jesus Christ comes FIRST and THEN is able to give to every man {pour out upon all flesh} according to what that person believes and make it be according to what Jesus' work for that person shall be.  Jesus Christ gives us what we SHOULD {shall} be doing.

Bless, donken


Bless, ken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ donken....I think I now see some of where you are coming from, and I cannot agree if what I'm seeing is actually what you mean.

The "last days" came 2000 plus years ago, as a day is like a thousand years.

Thus Jesus said to tell Herod that fox, that today (first day) and tomorrow (second day) He would do cures and cast out devils (His body would via the POWER they received on high from Pentecost), and the third day, He would be perfected/completed.

We are not waiting for Him to pour out His Spirit on all flesh, He's done that already beginning 2 days ago, and continues to do it to whomsoever will receive it.

So this brings us to day 3 when He said He would be perfected or completed. I submit to you that the Head was birthed first 2 days or 2000 years ago, and has been being birthed a physical generation at a time ever since (yet HE in the Spirit, is but ONE GENERATION, IE. THE LAST), but the last part to be birthed/come out from under the flesh so as not be "stillborn", is the FEET = those that are still walking in sin after He has RAISED UP THE FIRSTFRUITS.

Our "work" is the same as it was displayed for us by Him, to WASH THE FEET. Those that were/are called to be one with the Head, that SUBMIT to the cleansing of the inside of the cup (heart = root), gain the right to wash the feet (fruit of sin remaining on them). These FIRSTFRUITS are they that realize that the body (feet) could only do what they saw (perceived via soulish realm) their head do IN THEIR HEARTS, and so did not impute their sins unto them knowing that this is the reason that by whatever measure of judgment you mete out, the SAME is also meted out to you.

This is why hate (in the heart of the spiritual priesthood) manifests as murder in those in the outer court. They are literally compelled to do what they see their head do, and so Jesus said if you hate your brother in your heart......hate and murder is the same sin, because ONE BODY DID IT.

Am I my brother's keeper? Uh, YES. Ye shall know them by the LOVE that they have for one another. It's not love we see on the surface He's talking about, it's the loving not our lives unto death (allowing Him to cleanse the INSIDE of the cup), so that our "brother", the feet, can be cleansed. No greater love has any man than this....

He first cleanses the root out of our hearts, and then that changes our walk TOTALLY, so that we can then truly set the captives free (wash the feet). Satan cannot cast out Satan, and this has been the problem with Pentecost/in-part realm.

Ah, but Tabernacles, the FEAST of His dwelling places, if you will sup/consume with Me, then I will sup/consume with you. He truly has prepared for us a table in the midst of our enemies. And once it is finished, then Jubilee begins, as HE gets HIS possession back, our heart. My  :2c: Blessings....

[josh]

free gift
as a covering over sin
so that they can be in the presence
but it is a gift that requires maintenance
willing to suffer for the sake of others
without the follow thru
the gift can be withdrawn

per the parable of
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came to him and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? until seven times?
Mat 18:22  Jesus said unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times, but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of the heavens likened unto a man who is king who would take account of his slaves.
Mat 18:24  And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him who owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25  But he not having wherewith to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, to make payment.
Mat 18:26  The slave therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27  Then the lord of that slave was moved with compassion and loosed him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  But as the same slave was leaving, he found one of his fellowslaves who owed him a hundred denarius, and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me what thou owest.
Mat 18:29  And his fellowslave fell down at his feet and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30  And he would not, but went and cast him into prison until he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31  So when his fellowslaves saw what was done, they were very grieved and came and declared unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32  Then his lord, after he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked slave, I forgave thee all that debt because thou didst beseech me;
Mat 18:33  was it not also expedient unto thee to have mercy on thy fellowslave even as I had mercy on thee?
Mat 18:34  And his lord was wroth and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you unless from your hearts ye forgive every one his brother their trespasses.

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.   I would say that what is to happen in the last days has not happened very much yet, and we do not see any of the promises very much alive today.  Jesus said there would be a night time.  A time of darkness, spiritual and mental darkness.  We are in the day of the last beast and 666 as a form of government  is here already and has been for a while.

So, we have in scripture long after Jesus' resurrection talk through the apostles about brute beasts coming in and thwarting Christians and Christianity.  We also have Paul putting some people out {over to Satan} because they were teaching that the resurrection was already past.  But Paul obviously knew that our resurrection was not happening yet.

That said, you may and do believe what you do and that is that.  I am not going to address that part.  No matter what one thinks happened 2000 years ago, we are in need to deal with today.  We are being groomed to replace the beast as a government as Jesus Christ.  The pentecostal experience of the last 100 years or so is really the Elijah that must come first.  Like a teen ager comes before the adult.  But the Pentecostal experience only shows the people they were not hearing God properly because God was speaking, even IN them, and they did not understand his speech.  {tongues}.  If the church thinks they are going to be different than Israel was when Jesus "comes" they are proud, albeit without seeming so, and they will find they too are floundering... a plethora of doctrines and denominations, etc.  They can not get together to build the tower to the truth {heaven}.  There speech so far has been confounded.

We have a confusion of doctrinal ideas and beliefs, heavily and sincerely supported by all who believe what ever they believe.  It is up to God to deal with that because no physical bodied person is going to influence anyone away from what the presently believe.  It is "almost" a waste of time.

But.. when scripture says that anything we ask in Jesus name shall be done for us, we can all know that if that is true we must not be in Jesus' name deeply enough because that particular scripture is not yet ALIVE as in, being done all the time.

So regardless what anyone believes about when the last days start, the LAST DAY is the one we want ot have.  That is the DAY OF THE LORD where there will be no night any more, and that day will be continuous.

God has to remove the mind and beliefs of Elijah from us before we will have the double portion, knowing BOTH sides of the sword of the Lord.  All from one side.

As to washing the feet, Jesus Christ has to do that in us, for each of us.  We can not and will not be able to wash or clean up anyone's walk in this world.  No physical bodied person can ever do that because it all takes place inside, spiritually, and the person with the feet washed as it were, has to show they are washed.  There is no way around this for anyone.  As you say, we are to be perfected and that perfecting will go on to all who are ever born as human Adam babies in the creation for ever after.

As to the feast I would offer it is Jesus Christ right in our own body.  As he said, he would no more drink or eat of that cup he drank in Isreal UNTIL he takes of them again with us anew IN HIS FATHER'S KINGDOM.  As He comes in us and we obey His ways, he is drinking of that cup and bread with us as we do, providing we do do that HIS way.  The bread of affliction that may come upon us and the partaking of the flesh existence in a flesh and blood body.  We are purified IN HIS BLOOD.  Which will be our blood in our body when we are HIM, and then the blood in our body will be Jesus' blood and that is the blood we are purified in while we are in the flesh and blood body.   Of course, this is up to each person to come to or decide for themselves with Christ. 

If I die physically, for instance, then I was not Jesus Christ "yet", because it is only Jesus that does not die again.  That is how he becomes the saviour of the body, each body, and the saviour of the world through the obedience of multitudes of Jesus Christ spiritually as the entire body, each person being Jesus Christ.

Physical eyes will never see HIm and there is no rapture that removes us from the creation.  We are "resurrected" in our heart and mind spiritually while remaining in our flesh and blood body and then we walk it out "without sin" any more in all that we do in the world as Jesus Christ in the world and in government.  That is what I see and have seen.  What is made of it with another is up to them and then up to God to bring about whatever HE is going to do.

All that is going on here is that God is making something, making it alive, and giving it eternal life in His holiness.  God is bringing forth children right from the beginning, and the only mature Child is always Jesus Christ in maturity.  We do not see an end to physical warfare, we do not see the animals eating grass etc. together, and we do not see peace in the world through righteousness yet.  So no matter what one thinks about days etc, this is "THE" day and we need to get our houses in order.  But no one can do it for another.  And, words do not do it until or unless they are quickened to one within one.   When you share some times and you get a further understanding about what you are talking about at that time, that is the increase of the loaves and the fishes and is for you, even if the person or people you are sharing with do not "eat it".  We are to pick up all and not let any be lost.. for ourselves.

But, most often, so far, words are pretty well stagnant or "not alive" yet.  There is not anything much that is going to be done by what we call miracles.
God bless, donken

[donken]

Hello Josh.  Yes, good reminder.   Jesus Christ can not be coming "in us" if we are not doing what Jesus Christ does, can he?

Joh_8:43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.    Jesus also said that if we heard his words and did not do them we build OUR house on the sand.    Also, Jesus said that it was HIS WORDS that would judge each in the last day. 

How does that come about.  It is by what we believe His words mean "in each of us".  Are we true or are we mistaken as to the proper Spirit of the words.

Jesus did say that when He comes we are to keep our gaments lest we be found naked {like adam and eve are pictured in Genesis} and THEY {someone else} sees our nakedness.    We are talking about us who believe we are dressed in Christ's robes but are not and do not know it etc.
This is not directed at anyone specifically, but we need to understand and know these things.

If anyone here believes they are in "the" truth, then they would automatically think that anyone who was not in agreement with them was "naked" as it were.  Unless they were looking to put on the white robe themselves and had not angst against any, no matter what they presently think etc.
forgive life we have been forgiven... entirely and because we did not or do not know what we are doing.  TO be judged {matured} by God we must first know what it is He desires for us to know and live.  That is what is here now, or entering in if you like.
Bless, donken

[Cardinal]

That said, you may and do believe what you do and that is that.  I am not going to address that part.  No matter what one thinks happened 2000 years ago, we are in need to deal with today.  We are being groomed to replace the beast as a government as Jesus Christ.  The pentecostal experience of the last 100 years or so is really the Elijah that must come first.  Like a teen ager comes before the adult.  But the Pentecostal experience only shows the people they were not hearing God properly because God was speaking, even IN them, and they did not understand his speech.  {tongues}. 

But, most often, so far, words are pretty well stagnant or "not alive" yet.  There is not anything much that is going to be done by what we call miracles.
God bless, donken

:cloud9: My  :2c: and definitely my opinion..... I wanted to address these two points, because my experience does not witness either of them. As for them not understanding the tongues, WHERE do you get that from? It plainly said that they all heard what was said in tongues, yet in their own language.

Now I understand that if you've never experienced the baptism in the Holy Ghost which brings the gifts associated with it, it is difficult if not impossible to fully appreciate their in workings by the Spirit.

That being said, the HG IS the interpreter, the hearing ear was given, and though they heard a heavenly language with their natural ears, by the Spirit of God in them, they also with spiritual hearing, had the HG cause them to hear the message for them in their own native language. It's called the gift of tongues and interpretation. He let all of them hear that day, because that's the only way they would have ALL received that it was indeed the HG speaking to them.

I KNOW this, because I have experienced it myself. I heard the tongues with my natural ears, but at the same time, I heard the Spirit of God speak it to my spirit in English, and the one who gave the interpretation said exactly what I heard in English also.

"Normally" in a body of believers, one or maybe two people will hear via the HG, what was just spoken in a heavenly language, and they will relate it in English or whatever their native tongue is.
There is more confusion over this than anything else I think, because of fear.

I won't even go into the difference between that gift of tongues and the individual prayer language given to all believers that ask for it. Suffice it say, that understanding IS available for BOTH aspects of the gifts. The main difference is that the former one is a corporate expression for the body at large (for unbelievers too) and the latter one is for the individual.

The second point is the comment about not seeing what we would call miracles. I've seen plenty of healings, and as far as that goes, have had several notable healings that fall in the miracle category, myself. Again, it's part of what HE said HE would do in the 1st and 2nd days, and He did/does what He says. Blessings....

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.  Sorry, I guess I was not very clear on what I was addressing.  I was talking about the pentecostal experience here and in this time, last century and which is still here but much more muted now.  I was speaking about people everywhere who speak in tongues and they used to speak in tongues all together in at one time.  We are told to "seek to interpret" and that is there is no interpreter we are to keep silent in the church.

Please understand that I am not trying to point this out to accuse or blame anyone about anything, it is about US as a church, including myself in the body of the church.  I may have mentioned it to you before, but when M9ses came down the mount and was angry at Israel, he broke the ten commandments {tablets}. But I understood that I was not to be angry at the church or I would spiritually be doing the same thing.  Also, if I was angry at anyone and acted upon it, I was breaking them.  I will also say, I received this and it is up to me to do it for me, I am not trying to tell anyone else to do it, though I think it is an all encompassing thought.  NO one can tell anyone to do something with much hope of accomplishment for the other person unless they tell themselves they should or must do it.  .For instance telling someone that they should quit smoking, even if it is a doctor telling them, they will have trouble doing it UNLESS they agree within themselves and tell themselves to do it and really want to do it. {believe it for themselves to themselves}

People who speak in tongues do sincerely believe it is the Holy Spirit,{God} speaking in them and they are not understanding what is being said.  It is a SIGN that GOD has COME DOWN and confounded their speech ... and that God is speaking and they are not saying the same things at this time because they are not believing what God is saying and what they believe presently is their own language.  God is saying something different than what they can understand.  A NEW WINE.

In times of physical rule of the Gentiles over Israel, they were being beset by people with a foreign tongue and were captured by the "people" of tha tongue or language and ways.   {Their own ways upon them that were "strange" ways in comparison to the ways of God that they were told about}.

In Jesus' day, a parable about a day of being able to be SET FREE, there was a foreign tongue in and among Israel, and was ruling over them at the time Jesus was in Israel.     Tongues is a sign of the times of the coming of ELIJAH who NOW must decrease in what an Elijah type beleif is {carnal understanding of spiritual things and sees Jesus as a Physicpally operative saviour by physical destructive measures.   We need to hear what GOD is saying today spiritually, within us and not to the outer man, and "interpret" or understand the language.. the new wine.

Isa 33:16  He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17  Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Isa 33:18  Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
Isa 33:19  Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
Isa 33:20  Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Secondly, I did not say that we would not "see" miracles, I know they exist.  I said that the victory is not going to be done by miraculous powers and methods of miracles and things that MAN CAN NOT DO.  The change of Spiritual nature will be a miracle in the sense that man can not do it himself for himself, but man must participate in showing forth the ways of the Life of Christ by the Spirit within man\us.

This world is the way it is because of what is in man and what man does with the ability he has in the world today.  God is going to change the world through man and without doing miracles that are beyond the ability of man, meaning God is going to conquer the old man on equal terms.

It is nothing "wonderful" if a six foot tall man beats up a baby. as I said.  Man's evil ways and ignorance is going to be conquered within man and have man do no more evil things but do good things and replace the destructive things man does by and from his own greed etc. and his ignorance about what the environmental consequences will be.   Man is going to conquer the old man by having the new man put into existence a different living condition and works.  No flash and dash miracles and great bombast and physical burnings and so on.

As re read, it is the SON that puts all things under HIS FEET.  That means, we as the son, participate with God in us to put our own ungodly ways and desires under out WALK in this world.  The tares are bound only, not yet "dissolved entirely away".     No miracles to overcome the world and mankind except by what man as the son does "physically or bodily, as an outward representation of the Spirit of God in holiness within.
Thank you for addressing this instead of just throwing it out without giving me a chance to explain it so you "may" know what "i" mean.
God bless, donken