Greetings all:
As I stated in my introduction, I really did spend time browsing the home site, loving the articles, and checking some forum posts as I awaited login credentials.
I would like to draw your attention to this article on the Tentmakers site:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/MissingDay.html
1st, forgive me if I started this thread in the wrong spot.
Then, in my humble opinion, I believe the sun really stood still, because I sincerely believe it is the sun that moves around a fixed earth. (I do not believe the content of the e-mail in article)
I also believe, many of you think I'm nuts, as I thought too when a friend first introduced me to geocentricism.
Once the shock wears off, you are forced to admit that the exclusive reason we believe the earth moves is because we were told and taught that - by many atheists parading as "scientists".
Without belaboring the point, would you consider browsing this site?
http://www.fixedearth.com/index.html
Dave, there are many christian scientists. All agree and the space program all agree. The earth moves around the sun. Common sense would also tell you this since the sun would have to be moving so fast that a blazing trail would be left. The other planets all circle the sun and not the earth. All planetary orbits would be thrown out of whack if the sun moved around the earth. It also means the earth is not spinning since if the earth was spinning and the sun was circling it the suns rays would hit the same spot continually. We would not be able to predict eclipses.
I agree with geocentrism in the sense that the universe extends out proportionately from our solar system and we are at or very near the center of the universe but with a universe as large as ours is, there is no reason to quibble about whether the EXACT center is near the sun or near the earth because over these vast distances the minute distance between the sun and the earth is inconsequential. You are not nuts. I've read the arguments pro but I've also read the contradictory science facts. The christian scientists (some of whom are 6 day creationists, do not make these facts up)
When astronauts landed on the moon, their plotted course was where the earth would be in it's orbit, not concerned about where the sun was at any given time. :Peace2:
Dog gone ded2daworld, I was just logging out when I caught your response - I was responding to you on my greetings from ND thread.
I can certainly relate to what you wrote - Yep, been there myself.
I was hard hearted when first exposed to my friend - I did call him nuts, and the more he smiled, nodded, and kept saying "I know, I know how you feel" the harder I got. I would have no more of his nonsense - the "proofs" were overwhelming, I knew what I was taught - BUT, were they? If you have the time, please try and look at the site - I know Marshall well and even endorsed his book.
Regarding NASA mooning America: http://davesweb.cnchost.com/Apollo1.html
In Ken Eckerty's article on this website at Tentmakers titled: "Exposing the Greatest Lie..." he states:
"But just because the majority believes something to be true, that doesn't necessarily make it so."
How hard was it for you when the hellish hell was first debunked for you?
Feel free to call me nuts, I'm sure you'll do it in a kind way, and from YOUR perspective, I wouldn't blame you.
But you could check it out anyway... :dontknow:
OK I looked at the site. I've no problem with 6 day creation as I have been for some time. (I quit teaching high school biology over it - really asked to leave for NOT teaching evolution) but if you take the so-called "67 proofs" of the Bible using a common expression of what appears to actually happen, then you have to Justify "the four corners of the earth also".
Normal people, scientists, and the creator speak and spoke this way for it's ease of use and understanding of what APPEARS to take place. Was Lazarus really "only sleeping?"
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with the miracle of Joshua's long day. It is that however. A miracle. A miracle defined as the creator circumventing the laws of physics to acheive his purpose. "Moving the sun back an hour" with the earth circumventing the sun is just a slight shift of where the sun is in relation to the earth." Actually moving the sun backwards whiule it circumvents the earth would have disrupted the entire solar system. Do you have any idea how fast our sun would have to go to circle the earth in a day? The moon takes 27 and a half days to circle the earth once. It does this at an approx. speed of 8,685 miles per hour. If the sun, which is approximately 100 times further away than the moon were to circle the earth, it would reguire the sun to travel at a speed of almost 24 million miles per hour. (23,885,500) Except for light itself, there is no known object that can travel anywhere near this speed. If you believe we have been in space at all, the shuttles reach a top speed of ONLY 15,000 miles per hour. Solar flares, which can be seen with a moderately expensive telescope as almost stagnant(except for initial flaring away from the sun)would trail behind for 1,000's of miles and fill the skies.
The difference is that while there are many christian scientists that believe in a 6 day creation as the Bible states(no evolution, no big bang) there is not a single scientist that believes the earth stands still as the sun revolves around it. The bible says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. That statement is not false because God owns the cattle on more than 1,000 hills. The Bible has many expressions which are taken from the language and used. Remember the bible also says the earth "reels like a drunk" so that is hardly still but accounts for the measured wobbe fact. :Peace2:
BTW, the initial quote by Werner Von Braun was when computers that were LESS powerful than an I-phone took up the space of a very large room. Space travel has everything to do with computers.
No more trips to the moon because being a lifeless planet, there is little of interest there and nothing new to learn. We signed treaties with other countries so we can't exploit it(the moon) for our own (U.S.A.) use anyway.
Dave thank you for this last post with the link to probably one of the most hilariously funny reads I have seen. The guy who wrote that article has a great sense of humor. He really puts into perspective how the moon landing was a hoax. This is particularly funny to me because my fiance and myself have discussed this hoax in great lengths. Its mind boggling how many people believe this hoax but seem to know and understand that Hollywood and Universal Studios make better quality "movies" every day. Keep up the good work uncovering truths. By the way its going to take some convincing for me to ever believe that the Sun rotates around the earth though. :laugh: :rolllol:
Hello ded2daworld and mplsfitter539 - I never raised this issue or moon "landing" other than the "miracle" was raised in an article on this website, and I seriously believe it is in error, and I further believe God holds all copyrites on truth - truth, not just facts. I only wish to be accurate, and really I'm here to learn Spiritual growth or flow through me - and I need it. d2dworld, have you considered how fast and in how many directions the earth must travel in your accepted view? 1) rotation speed, 2)orbit speed around the sun in 365 day flight, 3) whirling speed as the solar system moves through out the galaxy, 4) Big bang speed as the universe ever expands - Wow, four different speeds in four different directions, and all because someone told you "how it really is" - I get it, I was in denial too, and every morning I got up and watched the sunrise in the east, track across the sky and set in the west. I respect your view and decision not to study the site I sent - still, I would request you reconsider.
mplsfitter539: I agree, the writer is a hoot, but consider the material he had to work with "Disneyland". Did you see the youTube vid of the LEM leaving the "moon" on his site??? I did a better job as a kid with fire crackers. :laugh2:
I did look at the site and I read MArshalls book some time ago. Belief in UR makes a different in your life. Geocentrism makes no difference in your spiritual life. IMO, Geocentrism hurts your witness. People already believe we are either, liars, stupid, or lunatics.
Why give them ammunition? At least 6 day creationism has actual scientists that believe it and evolution is easily proven unscientific. Are there any science facts for the sun going around the earth?
ded2daworld wrote: "Are there any science facts for the sun going around the earth?"
I don't know what to say, but of course. Curious how you read his book and then would ask me that. Furthermore, I saw in your previous post that you did indeed say you looked at his site - but "look" and study are two different breeds. That is a HUGE site. I respectfully disagree that beleiving in myths does not make a difference in one's spiritual life, especially concerning God's creation and how He ordered it to work. I cannot in good conscience hide the truth just to justify it by saying at least I made a convert who now rejects hellish hell - AND I'm NOT saying you did or would do this either. You raise a good point about credibility amongst the believers in hellish hell. I must take this to the Lord.
Would you do me the favor of telling me what 1 Tim. 6: 20 does for you? Btw, which translation too. I just looked at KJV.
I've owned/sold 4 bars, am in process of opening a 5th. Believe it or not, the opportunity to witness in a small town bar is incredible - and yes, I've been labled a lunitic/stupid and even more graphic. Demons do lurk in bars, you can feel their presence - can't prove it, but surely believe it. In the typical 5 - 8 people gathered at the power station (where the bartender stands when not tending) and a controversial subject matter is at hand, YEP, there is the one in every crowd, loud mouthed know it all - BUT, you'd be surprised how often 1 or 2 would start to think for a change and lose that "deer in the headlights" stare. If i'm in error, PLEASE point it out.
Dave Reading the article about the moon landing hoax just confirms to me how easily people are duped into believing something so blatantly false. I would liken the lunar landing hoax to the hell hoax, trinity hoax, secret rapture hoax, and many other just to name a few. The common thread that holds all of these false beliefs together is gullibility and in many cases willingness to be deceived. Most people that I have met simply refuse to entertain any new ideas and discredit anything that does not line up with any or all of their preconceived ideas. Ideas like, duh, it must be true I saw it on television or my pastor said this is what I should believe. My dad always says "Les Feldick says the secret rapture is true and he studied the bible more than you". How can you argue with that sort of logic?
Dave, I agree with you and the Lord about ! tim 6:20. I don't see how that has anything to do with things that are not clear in the Bible. For example, To me, a six day creation about 6,000 years ago is true, not because science backs it up(which it does) but because the bible is clear on it. Since your belief and my belief concerning orbits of the earth and sun have nothing to do with accepting God's word as true, I don't see how it can affect my life. If it was important, God would have made it clear which is correct. I also mentioned I believed the miracle of Joshua's long day already as I believe all the miracles and events depicted in the bible.
IMO, this side issue is akin to what the cults do to get people worked up over non-essentials and show that "they" are the true believers.
It was many years ago I read the book and I frankly don't remeber much about it except that I rejected his conclusions. May be God told him something personally he hasn't told anyone else. :dontknow:
End transmission.
I looked at Fixedearth.com, and I noted the multi-colored wording, multi-colored highlighting, extensive use of italics, bold type, underlining, multiple fonts, multiple sizes, etc. It is confusing at best, and mentally deranging at worst. I must conclude it may be for brainwashing purposes. In every case where I have seen such a typographic goulash, the ideas have been FAR OUT. Do you see what I mean? I will file this with other areas I have investigated far enough to know I didn't want to investigate any further.
The best explanation for the long day may be by Immanuel Velikovsky, and while you may not put much credence in his "planets gone wild" theory, he did find the best support for the Hebrew account in the myths/legends of the North American Indians, who relate exactly what Joshua's long day would have looked like from their part of the world. As I like to say, it all makes sense together, or it makes no sense at all.
Ded, as I posted elsewhere, the earth does indeed have four corners, as it is not a sphere, but a very fat tetrahedron.
Well, I'm pretty sure it (the earth) is called an orb.
An orb yes, but not a sphere, as it is too egg-shaped (ovoid). It's shape is complex, flattened ever so slightly at the poles, bulged ever so slightly at the equator. I'll see if I can dig up any information on the corners - I used to have a clipping stating where they were located.
Isaiah 40:22
Knox bible has orb, NIV has circle as do 3 other versions, and Job 26:10 says there is acircle that surrounds the waters seperating light from darkness
Can we settle on the Earth being round, like Charlie Brown's head?
but round is not a tetrahedron and I can't find anything else to argue with you over :laughing7:
I didn't realise you came here for an argument. :punish:
poor attempt at being facetious. I put a laughing smiley at the end to let you know i was joking. :Peace2:
Yeah, I knew you were joking. Chuck's head, a ball, an orb, a sphere, an ovoid, a fat tetrahedron whose shape approaches a sphere...at some point the difference doesn't make any difference.
The earth's 4 corners are supposed to be 4 flat areas thousands of miles across and opposite one another.
Do you know where they are?
First time for everything I guess, for never before in web content validity discussions have I heard the charge that "typographic goulash, the ideas have been FAR OUT" as per Lazarus Short's position. In the kindest terms Lazarus, and with heartfelt sincerity, a simple google search will yield any number of websites absent such "goulash" on the matter before us - one of which I'll quote for your edification and for an answer to ded2daworld's following statement: "Since your belief and my belief concerning orbits of the earth and sun have nothing to do with accepting God's word as true, I don't see how it can affect my life. If it was important, God would have made it clear which ..."
QUOTE: "I don't know if you've considered it until now, but if Scripture says that earth cannot be moved, shall
not be moved and be not moved, then those who adhere to the theory that the earth is rotating and
revolving around the sun are in direct opposition to Yah's Word. That, friend, is a serious charge."
SOURCE:http://creationcalendar.com/files/Geocentricity.pdf
BTW ded2daworld: Have you ever heard of the "Gap Theory" as it applies to creation? Just curious, no need to go there, I'm simply aware of it but haven't spent much time on it. :dunno2:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on March 05, 2013, 01:29:18 AM
Dave Reading the article about the moon landing hoax just confirms to me how easily people are duped into believing something so blatantly false. I would liken the lunar landing hoax to the hell hoax, trinity hoax, secret rapture hoax, and many other just to name a few. The common thread that holds all of these false beliefs together is gullibility and in many cases willingness to be deceived. Most people that I have met simply refuse to entertain any new ideas and discredit anything that does not line up with any or all of their preconceived ideas. Ideas like, duh, it must be true I saw it on television or my pastor said this is what I should believe. My dad always says "Les Feldick says the secret rapture is true and he studied the bible more than you". How can you argue with that sort of logic?
THANKS for the laugh - you're right, your not going to win that argument with dear old dad :laugh:
I was raised by a lawyer - can you feel my pain? How many arguments do you think I won as a kid? I thought I'd show dad who he was messing with when I was 17 and wanted to join the Navy, BUT, needed his permission - I'll never forget the day I boldly told him: "I'm fed up with you always telling me what to do - I'm joining the Navy and you're going to sign that form..."
Waiting to get clobbered, I was surprised when he calmly signed the form, opened the door and started whistling "Anchors Away"
It didn't take me long in boot camp at Great Lakes NTC to figure out that dad had one another argument. :laugh:
To this day, I fondly recall just how STUPID I was at 17.
Thank you, Dave for your kind and gentle reply. I tell you, I just can not get past the multi-colors, which can be useful in moderation, but the use in the site you linked to was way over the top, so much so as to blunt comprehension. I would almost rather face strobe lights. Maybe I will examine geocentrism elsewhere, as I adhere to no scientific sacred cows.
Let me ask you this one question: Did not the heliocentric model explain the empirical data of the APPARENT movements of the planets better than the geocentric model, with all of its epicycles?
To answer your question, either one works. I'll let two quotes explain more, and they are NOT Christians by any stretch:
"For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations." Ellis has published a paper on this. "You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that." George Ellis - cosmologist, in Scientific American, "Thinking Globally, Acting Universally", October 1995
"Such a condition would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, analogous, in a sense, to the ancient conception of a central Earth...This hypothesis cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last resort in order to save the phenomena. Therefore we disregard this possibility.... the unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs.... such a favored position is intolerable...Therefore, in order to restore homogeneity, and to escape the horror of a unique position...must be compensated by spatial curvature. There seems to be no other escape."
Edwin Hubble - The Observational Approach to Cosmology , yep, the Hubble Bubble Red shift telescope guy.
Can you guess what is "unwelcome" "the horror" and "escape" from - I would submit he can not accept the fact God exisits and willed it so.
And just for you Lazarus, I limited the highlights to ONE color! :laughing7:
Quote from: Dave Corum on March 05, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
To answer your question, either one works. I'll let two quotes explain more, and they are NOT Christians by any stretch.......
Can you guess what is "unwelcome" "the horror" and "escape" from - I would submit he can not accept the fact God exisits and willed it so..
Wow! Can you imagine that!! To prefer life as random and without purpose, to believing in a Creator God! To prefer life be an anomaly, rather than death the anomaly! But of course the vision of said Creator is as an eternal tormentor...! O my goodness! (Of course man still wants to decide good and evil for theirself and is another reason 'they'/we, as in humans, so vehemently deny God!
Dave - very damning, and damaging admissions from two scientists. We may just have been misled.
Thanks for the two-color text. THAT I can handle.
BTW, my father grew up near Marshfield, Missouri, and knew Edwin Hubble's family.
Well, I surely have never heard that one before! I have heard scoffers try to say the Bible says the world is flat, and of course we know how erroneous that is! Imagine, quoting Jesus, when He said "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.. He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth.." Meaning of course the four directions of the compass (dah!) :rolllol:
- Then of course, as we know, the psalmist wrote long ago, during days when the rest of the world thought the earth was supported on the back of Atlas, a turtle, or an elephant, about the "circuit of the sun" from it's rising and setting each day.. as others have noted, a figure of speech, not intended to say the sun moves around the earth.. And in another place wrote how "the earth hangs on nothing".. long before that apple hit Newton's head..
"The sun stood still" - I daresay we would say that even today when all are of the opinion (know) it's the earth moving around the sun.. And the pictures the guy has 'proving' the stars move around the earth.. try spinning fast and see if the room will not produce the same effect..
And we all still say, the sun rises and sets.. which of course is our viewpoint from earth..humble earth.. not the center of God's immense universe..
I am a Bible literalist (Xcept for what is referred to as 'hell' and should simply read "grave".. but this is carrying it a bit far..
In the Hebrew, God could have used a lot of words if He wanted to show that the world was flat, or that it had corners. He could have used the word Pinoh referring to a cornerstone. He could have used Paioh which means corner (in a geometric sense). He could have used Ziovyoh which can mean a right angle or (you guessed it) a corner. He might used Krnouth which refers to a corner which projects outward.
If He wanted to show the idea of a square, four-cornered earth, He could have used the word Paamouth, which means a square. Instead our Father choose the word Kanaph, which in general means extremities.
Mere mortals, do you really know what you are saying? Heed my warning, for whatever bible translation you employ, know ye not that almost all are clear on the FACT our God Almighty has stated more than once His creation CANNOT, WILL NOT and DOESN'T move. Embrace men's teachings all you want, OUR GOD will NOT be mocked.
Seriously, do you even have one small fact the earth moves? NO, it's just YOUR beliefs.
NONE I say IMHO, you only parrot what man has "taught you".
You show me NO facts...fine, you owe me no facts, BUT, before the great judge, what will be your statement then?
THINK ABOUT IT, please, I beg you.
Dave, I did the courtesy of considering your "no move" idea, and even went so far as to read up on it on the www. However, would not the good news of Jesus the Christ be even more marginalized if we all start pushing this "no move" idea? Most folks will never take this seriously, and I'm sure they quickly call you a "flat Earther" when you broach the subject, yes?
I have a question for you: If your idea is correct, would we not expect the stars to be describing tight, fast circles or ellipses (as seen from here) around their own planets? Or...have you considered, as I have, that the stars are just holes in an empty cosmic shell, allowing a little light to come in??
Lazarus Short, you really stike me as a good person, sincerely, IMHO. I am at a loss of words to really describe me. You ask my wife of 30 yrs, perhaps she could help.
Call it "crusty", "crabby", I don't know, but I have been called a "flat earther" and it bother's me not. (YES, I have been called a flat earther). Here's my point: Jesus is Lord, He died for us - do you really know how special that act was? Rhetorically speaking of course, cause I believe YOU do know. I LOVE the Lord; I can't deny the Lord. He does not embarrass me - in private or public, and I have owned 4 bars. I do not know why so many here have a problem with what I write, but I'll say it one more time: MOST bible translations CLEARLY reflect our CREATOR's statement conerning HIS creation - It DOESN'T move, It CANNOT move...that's it AMEN, period.
Do you understand all the scriptural references to a FIXED FOUNDATION?
People here, and I believe with all my heart GOD LOVES THEM, must take this issue before the Lord, not me.
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2013, 12:48:20 AM
Well, I surely have never heard that one before! I have heard scoffers try to say the Bible says the world is flat, and of course we know how erroneous that is! Imagine, quoting Jesus, when He said "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.. He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth.." Meaning of course the four directions of the compass (dah!) :rolllol:
- Then of course, as we know, the psalmist wrote long ago, during days when the rest of the world thought the earth was supported on the back of Atlas, a turtle, or an elephant, about the "circuit of the sun" from it's rising and setting each day.. as others have noted, a figure of speech, not intended to say the sun moves around the earth.. And in another place wrote how "the earth hangs on nothing".. long before that apple hit Newton's head..
"The sun stood still" - I daresay we would say that even today when all are of the opinion (know) it's the earth moving around the sun.. And the pictures the guy has 'proving' the stars move around the earth.. try spinning fast and see if the room will not produce the same effect..
And we all still say, the sun rises and sets.. which of course is our viewpoint from earth..humble earth.. not the center of God's immense universe..
I am a Bible literalist (Xcept for what is referred to as 'hell' and should simply read "grave".. but this is carrying it a bit far..
You SAY, you are a "Bible literalist", however, IMO, you are a mere victim of what you have been taught/told.
No axe to grind with you, none whatsoever. You can easily mislead me for I do not know you, but why lie to yourself?
Dave won't be returning to the forum. The above obviously isn't a very nice post, but throughout the night he gave MULTIPLE reasons (in a couple other threads) for his not returning. (so you know/for your info).
The earth does not revolve around the sun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jBK1ZV-qs
If it's a spiral motion, what do we see? That's right--the Divine [Golden] Ratio
Psalms 19:4-6
yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
Molly, the video is mostly music and words printed in what looks like Russian - same thing with part 2. I did like the comment one person made at the bottom. "In Soviet Russia, sun revolves around earth."
A better video in what is grammatically incorrect English is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NH5yK3ZN54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NH5yK3ZN54)
All the videos I've seen still insist that our planet IS moving. Dave Corum was insisting that the earth was completely still, not spinning, not orbiting, not spiraling, not revolving, not moving at all. This was even to the point that the Milky way is in a spiral galaxy that is constantly moving... and THAT's why UR is correct. (Keeping the post relevant to UR. ) If the next person doesn't get this back on track...never mind - we're too far gone. I'm locking it with allowing anyone that wants to discuss Joshua's long day to start as a new topic.