Tentmaker Forum

My Christmas post.

Does the Bible really teach Jesus was born in a barn because nobody helped his parents after they found out there was no room in the inn? As so often church doctrine is very wrong.

Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem....
Luke 2:6 And it happened as they were there the days were fulfilled for her to bear.
Read that verse closely: While they already in Bethlehem Mary was going trough her last days of pregnancy. Bethlehem wasn't a large town so it wouldn't have taken long to figure out there was no place to stay. We don't know how many days "the days" were but there is a fair chance they could have went to Zacharias and Elizabeth, who lived in the "hill country"  (Luke 1:39-40)
(http://holylandarchive.com/section_images/169_HCJudahMap030923.jpg)
The hill country is quite large but the chances are that they lived quite near Jerusalem because Zacharias was a priest.

The region Jesus was born in, was big on hospitality. Even the Bible teaches about helping people out. As I will show hospitality was a major design factor of a house. Add to that the urgent needs of a pregnant woman and hospitality is even more obvious. Add to that the fact that Bethlehem was Joseph's home town he had to visit for the census. No family or friends that would help them?
Luke 2:3 And all went to be registered, each to his own city.
Luke 2:4 And Joseph .... because of his being of the house and family of David,


Joseph from the lineage of King David, visiting the town David was born and annoited in, would likely have made the people even more willing to help. To us a bloodline means very little. For those people is was just an extra reason for hospitality. So when pregnant woman and her husband who announced himselfs as "I am Joseph, son ofHeli, son of Matthat, the son of Levi" knocked on their door they would chose sleeping outside themselves over turning the couple away.

While all of the above is generally true it's obviously no conclusive proof that Jesus wasn't born in a barn. Perhaps they simply had no choice than to stay in a barn "until the days were fulfilled". That  would have been hat's way better than giving birth in the middle of the street.

Luckily there is proof in the Greek text and in the architecture of the houses at build at that time. In fact similar house were still found in the region late last century.


Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luke 22:11 And you will say to the housemaster of that house, Our Master says to you, Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with My disciples?

Inn = katalyma = guest room. Katalyma

It's a general term for all sorts of shelters but Jesus continues to define it as an "upper room". That is a major key to the sort of house.

Luke 2:12 And that one will show you a large upper room which he has furnished. Prepare there.

The good Samaritan takes the wounded man to a commercial inn because he pays the inn keeper. In this case the Greek word for inn is pandocheion, which means "all to-receive"

Luke 10:34 And coming near, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. And putting him on his donkey, he brought him to an inn and cared for him.
Luke 10:35 And on the dawn of the day he departed, taking out two denarii, he gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, Care for him, and whatever more you spend, on my return I will repay to you.

---

What happened is this: Joseph and Mary went to a private house. Likely unannounced because there were already guests staying in the guest room.
Below 4 drawings of what the majority of the houses in the area looked like.
A poor family always lived in a house with 3 rooms

Room A - Animals
This room was a place for the animals. Poor people had only a few animals so it was a rather small area. The animals were outside during daytime and in the evening they were kept indoors to keep them safe from wild animals and thief. In the winter their body heat, heated the house.
In Luke 13:10-17 Jesus is accused of healing a a woman on Sabbath. The English translation hides some of the beauty of the text.

10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on one of the Sabbaths.
11 And, behold, there was a woman having a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent together and was not able to straighten herself at all.
12 And seeing her, Yahshua called her near and said to her, Woman, you have been freed from your infirmity.
What's translated as 'freed' literally means 'untied'. Here Jesus is setting the stage for refuting His opponents even before they accused Him :-)

13 And He laid hands on her. And instantly she straightened herself and glorified Elohim.
14 But answering, being angry that Yahshua healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the crowd, There are six days in which it is right to work. Therefore, coming in these, be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.
15 Then the Master answered him and said, Hypocrite! Each one of you on the Sabbath, does he not untie his ox or his donkey from the manger in the house, and goes and waters it?
16 And this one being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound, lo, eighteen years, ought she not to be freed from this bond on the Sabbath day?
So Jesus refutes them by saying they also untied (animals) on Sabbath day.

17 And on His saying these things, all who were opposed to Him were ashamed. And all the crowd rejoiced over all the glorious things taking place by Him.
They were all ashamed, meaning all Jesus said was true.
"in the house" isn't part of any Greek text. An ninth century Arab speaking translator added those words just as the KJV adds many words in italics.
The reason I added this part is to show it's so highly logical to people in that area to have an animal indoors they just assume and add it to the translation.

Room B - Family room
This was the family room. Just one room for the whole family. Jesus was born in that room.
The type with the higher floor was handy because it was a few feet higher than the floor of the animals. That created a 'wall' that acted as a barrier for the animals. It was also handy for sweeping.

Room C - Guest room or Prophet's room
Earlier I wrote about the great hospitality being reflected in the way houses were build.
This room was only for guests. Such a tiny house had a room specially for guests. The room on the ground floor certainly was called a guest room. I'm not sure the room on the roof was also called a guest room or only a prophet's room. The name prophet's room originates from 1 Kings 17:19
Anyway when Joseph and Mary arrived this room -inn- was full.


(http://www.radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/TMfiles/house1.jpg)
(http://www.radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/TMfiles/house2.jpg)


The owners of the house could have sent Mary and Joseph or the other guests away. They didn't and invited them in their family room.
In two of the drawings you see a dashed line which is some framework separating the animal area from the people area.
In the other two drawings you see a few steps. The floor of the living room was a few feet above the floor of the stable. One big open area.
I think Jesus was born in this type of house because of the mangers.



There were several types of manger. A box either made out of wood or carved out of stone. That was mainly for sheep. The wooden manger was likely semi-portable so could in theory be placed in the middle of the living room.
Another type of manger was for oxen and other larger animals. A hole was carved out in the floor of the family room. The ox had to stand to eat from the manger.


What sort of house Jesus was in? It was a simple peasants house. But the type I don't know. In all sorts of Christmas displays Jesus is surrounded by animals but none are mentioned in the Gospels. If there were really animals, the type of house could be narrowed down a bit.
That said I really doubt a mother would put a baby in a manger surrounded by animals that can do all sorts of harm to the baby.

My guess is a wooden portable manger put somewhere in the family room.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 19, 2014, 06:54:52 PM
My Christmas post.

Does the Bible really teach Jesus was born in a barn because nobody helped his parents after they found out there was no room in the inn? As so often church doctrine is very wrong.

What sort of house Jesus was in? It was a simple peasants house. But the type I don't know. In all sorts of Christmas displays Jesus is surrounded by animals but none are mentioned in the Gospels. If there were really animals, the type of house could be narrowed down a bit.
That said I really doubt a mother would put a baby in a manger surrounded by animals that can do all sorts of harm to the baby.

My guess is a wooden portable manger put somewhere in the family room.

I liked your analysis. Especially your last few comments as per the extracted quote above. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

:dsunny:

Down here where I'm from, we have what are called "posadas"

Granted ~> they are dwindling away in terms of customs

I guess these days ~> modernity is taking its toll
therefore these days today ~> old customs are remembered only but by those very few with a heart for the old

over this way my way ~> posada means that you take poor folks on the road and give them an ~> "inn"
you break bread from your table; take from your house ~> and share with those on a "pilgrimage"

it was the custom i take it, since way way back from what i can remember ~> imparted to me by my old old ones
~> "you sized up folks and you welcomed them and gave them an inn"

and then of course there were those ones whom if they had family in that same town
or if people knew of your 'ancestral' family ~> they gave you an "automatic" inn

as we like to say ~> "te dan abrigo" ~> they gave you "comfort"

sometimes in this modern society we lose contact with old customs., we lose the old ties that bind
thus i wonder how much better we could understand things if we understood thee old customs (?)

thus a stable was no longer necessary in the same sense that we understand things to be in these days
but surely, a room somewhere in the main grounds outside of the house was so true

"a humble guest room" ~> outside of the main "sleeping" room

In every thread about Jesus's birth belongs the star of Bethlehem. Especially around xmas time.

A simple graphic explanation of the star.
http://www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.htm

A bit more historical background.
http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp

This is a very moving documentary of one man's search for the Star of Bethlehem.

Merry Christmas!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff-Gp194XUU

Wow,great post, thanks for sharing!

Quote from: Molly on December 24, 2014, 06:39:39 AM
This is a very moving documentary of one man's search for the Star of Bethlehem.

Merry Christmas!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff-Gp194XUU

Thanks Molly. That's very interesting information.

Hi friends,
After having read and viewed these links in this thread provided by Whitewings and Molly:

http://www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff-Gp194XUU

on the topic of "Jesus' wasn't born in a stable" and about the star of Bethlehem, I offer the following regarding this guiding star.


First the star was not a comet, for the very valid and scientific reasons given in those links,

Second it was not a meteor, again for the very valid and scientific reasons given in those links

Third, it was not a supernova, once again for the very valid and scientific reasons given in those links

And fourth, from a physical and  astronomical historical analysis, concerning the guiding star, it seems logical.  In this fourth scenario, the star of Bethlehem story explains that it was the movement, alignment, conjunction and retrograde motion of the planets Venus and  Jupiter with the star Regulus in the constellation Leo,  This seems plausible, especially when one reads the detailed analysis of Ernest L Martin PHD,. This is the link to his study, as also provided by WW : http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp.

And although this fourth explanation is accepted as true and factual by many, I tend to believe this occurrence of the star was a supernatural event.  It was a miracle.  Everything about Jesus Christ, His birth, life and death is all about miracles. 

Related scriptures in Mat. 2:  1-13  and Luke 2: 1-20 and listed below give us some detail.  Jesus was not born on December 25th. The shepherds in the field with their flocks experienced a miracle from a messenger about the birth of Christ.  Obviously, these were not the Magi. Christ's  birth occurred in late summer of early autumn as the scriptures reveal.  Shepherds are not out with their flocks in December in Judea.  The likely time of the birth of Jesus can be deduced from the timing of the conception and birth of John (the Baptist) and the birth of Jesus.

The wise men (Magi) did not visit Christ until some time later when He was a child, and not a new born baby.  .They did not visit the young Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem as most nativity scenes depict, but rather visited Jesus in a house somewhat after His birth (Mat. 2:11)

Interestingly when the Magi got to Jerusalem they had to ask Herod where Jesus was to be born.  Herod consulted with the Chief Priests and scribes who told him in Bethlehem.  Then Herod asks the Magi at what time the star appeared.  Why did he want to know?  Because he was already conniving to have Jesus killed.  He was concerned about the usurping of his ruler ship.  Jesus had already been born much earlier, since Herod was prepared to kill all males under the a of 2 years.  Obviously the Magi had journeyed many months before arriving at Jerusalem.

The star which the Magi were following led them over a long east-west route from Babylon to Judea.  When they got to Jerusalem, and inquired of Herod, they had to go south to Bethlehem.  The star now led them south and finally stood over where the young Jesus was.  If you were to try to place yourself under a distant physical star when it is at its zenith, you would have great difficulty.  It is impossible to pin-point your position under the zenith with any accuracy.  Or was this a messenger (angel) shining brightly, who guided them to Jesus all along?  Stars occasionally are mentioned in scripture referring to messengers (angels).

Luke 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)2 And it came to pass in those days, there went forth a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world be enrolled --
2 this enrollment first came to pass when Cyrenius was governor of Syria --
3 and all were going to be enrolled, each to his proper city,
4 and Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, that is called Bethlehem, because of his being of the house and family of David,
5 to enroll himself with Mary his betrothed wife, being with child.
6 And it came to pass, in their being there, the days were fulfilled for her bringing forth,
7 and she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and wrapped him up, and laid him down in the manger, because there was not for them a place in the guest-chamber.
8 And there were shepherds in the same region, lodging in the field, and keeping the night-watches over their flock,
9 and lo, a messenger of the Lord stood over them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they feared a great fear.
10 And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people --
11 because there was born to you to-day a Saviour -- who is Christ the Lord -- in the city of David,
12 and this [is] to you the sign: Ye shall find a babe wrapped up, lying in the manger.'
13 And suddenly there came with the messenger a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying,
14 `Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men -- good will.'
15 And it came to pass, when the messengers were gone away from them to the heavens, that the men, the shepherds, said unto one another, `We may go over indeed unto Bethlehem, and see this thing that hath come to pass, that the Lord did make known to us.'
16 And they came, having hasted, and found both Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in the manger,
17 and having seen, they made known abroad concerning the saying spoken to them concerning the child.
18 And all who heard, did wonder concerning the things spoken by the shepherds unto them;
19 and Mary was preserving all these things, pondering in her heart;
20 and the shepherds turned back, glorifying and praising God, for all those things they heard and saw, as it was spoken unto them.

Matthew 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 And Jesus having been born in Beth-Lehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, lo, mages from the east came to Jerusalem,
2 saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'
3 And Herod the king having heard, was stirred, and all Jerusalem with him,
4 and having gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he was inquiring from them where the Christ is born.
5 And they said to him, `In Beth-Lehem of Judea, for thus it hath been written through the prophet,
6 And thou, Beth-Lehem, the land of Judah, thou art by no means the least among the leaders of Judah, for out of thee shall come one leading, who shall feed My people Israel.'
7 Then Herod, privately having called the mages, did inquire exactly from them the time of the appearing star,
8 and having sent them to Beth-Lehem, he said, `Having gone -- inquire ye exactly for the child, and whenever ye may have found, bring me back word, that I also having come may bow to him.'
9 And they, having heard the king, departed, and lo, the star, that they did see in the east, did go before them, till, having come, it stood over where the child was.
10 And having seen the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy,
11 and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
12 and having been divinely warned in a dream not to turn back unto Herod, through another way they withdrew to their own region.
13 And on their having withdrawn, lo, a messenger of the Lord doth appear in a dream to Joseph, saying, `Having risen, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and be thou there till I may speak to thee, for Herod is about to seek the child to destroy him.'

To my mind it was a miracle about what happened. Heavenly signs, conjunctions of heavenly bodies and our wondering about what we see in the second heaven are part of the mystery of the way God works. I appreciate the insight and various opinions on a topic and this one certainly stirred my spirit

 :goodpost:

 :goodpost: :ty:

You forgot to mention the meaning/names of the stars/constellations involved.
One example: Regulus, the ruler, the rod/staff moves between the claws of starsign Leo/Lion/Judah.

Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and to him shall the gathering of the people be.

Quote from: joeteekay on December 29, 2014, 01:40:39 AM
The star now led them south and finally stood over where the young Jesus was.  If you were to try to place yourself under a distant physical star when it is at its zenith, you would have great difficulty.  It is impossible to pin-point your position under the zenith with any accuracy.  Or was this a messenger (angel) shining brightly, who guided them to Jesus all along?  Stars occasionally are mentioned in scripture referring to messengers (angels).[/size][/b]

Before I continue I want to say whenever I write stars you have to read that loosely. Stars = stars + planets including sun and moon.

Such a claim can never be disproved but keep in mind the Bible doesn't state they instantly found Jesus. They may have knocked on many doors before they found Jesus. Bethlem wasn't a huge city so it wasn't very huge task. Even before they left home they knew Jesus was born in Bethlehem. They told Herod in verse 5 He was born in Bethlehem because that what the prophecy (v5) said. So there wasn't really a need for angel. Visiting Herod was a courtesy visit and saving themselves searching the right house in the town of Bethlehem.
So if God sets up a massive guiding/signaling movement in the literal stars and planets and the Bible tells us that confirmed by astronomy why would the story suddenly switch to angelic beings?
Also keep in mind you only have read half of the story of the stars.
Bethlehem means house of bread. Another name for that star sign is virgo/virgin. Virgo is a woman.
Now goto Revelation and read the part were a woman clothed with the sun stands on the moon. It pinpoints the day of His birth. Even the hour of His birth with an accuracy of 2 hours IIRC.
Clothed with the sun = sun in* womb area of Virgo. Standing on the moon is that the feet of virgo touched* the moon.
*= read that as "looks as if" because all those 'stars' are million of miles apart.

None of the things mentioned above are really wonders. Using astronomy software it could have been predicticted millions of years ago. It's all in paths of the stars as astronomy describes. But... those stars were set in those orbits at the dawn of time by theFather. So He created a really massive celestial clock which works perfectly and then spoils the fun by letting an angelic being do the pinpointing? I really doubt that. Maybe it's partly because I've read much much more about stars in relation to the Bible. The Hebrew zodiac is 12 groups of 4 (not 1) constellations. Those constellation tell a very big story spanning Genesis to Revelation. I think the Christmas star was part of that.

The biggest story ever told. Not just because of the persons that are in the play. But also because of the massive size of the storybook itself.
:2c:








2 And Jesus having been born in Beth-Lehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, lo, mages from the east came to Jerusalem,
2 saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'
3 And Herod the king having heard, was stirred, and all Jerusalem with him,
4 and having gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he was inquiring from them where the Christ is born.
5 And they said to him, `In Beth-Lehem of Judea, for thus it hath been written through the prophet,
6 And thou, Beth-Lehem, the land of Judah, thou art by no means the least among the leaders of Judah, for out of thee shall come one leading, who shall feed My people Israel.'
7 Then Herod, privately having called the mages, did inquire exactly from them the time of the appearing star,
8 and having sent them to Beth-Lehem, he said, `Having gone -- inquire ye exactly for the child, and whenever ye may have found, bring me back word, that I also having come may bow to him.'

 :thumbsup:



I believe we want to know the  pattern Tony , but also the Spiritual meanings  as well
I love the fact being   that we are warned from the beginning ..
If we do not  Love and worship God   first
  we are driven  , I find that word   strange ''driven '' to worship the Sun , moon and stars
http://biblehub.com/parallel/deuteronomy/4-19.htm

http://studybible.info/strongs/H5080

Quote from: rosered on December 29, 2014, 01:25:00 PM
:thumbsup:



I believe we want to know the  pattern Tony , but also the Spiritual meanings  as well

Sure I can accept that.
I'm just of the opinion we have to get both right. And not just that; a wrong understanding of the natural may lead to a wrong understanding of the spiritual. I think it is the cause of many false doctrines. It's like removing the witness.

Yes, it IS true stars can also be angelic messengers. The 7 stars of the 7 churches are very specific people of the church leadership. Or according to some a the whole church. So I could claim they were following a flying church.
But I won't  :laugh:

What knocked my socks off in the Star of Bethlehem video is that December 25th marks the date that Jupiter, the king planet, went retrograde over Bethlehem, and therefore, 'stood' still in the sky.   There is no other date when this could have happened.

9After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was. 10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

--Matthew 2


That means the first Gentiles arrived from far off to worship Jesus on that day.  This is what the nations are celebrating on Christmas day, being brought into covenant with God through Christ, and made to be the family of God--


12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, ...

--Ephesians 2

Is there any verse of scripture that instructs or guides anyone to recognize or celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ the Savior of the world? Is in not just man's religious idea?

Micah, not that I know of. I used to not celebrate Christmas because of the pagan stuff but when I saw my kids slightly looking down on those pagans for their tree and lights I figured it was worse than joining the pagans. That was way before I ever heard of UR but I knew that was no good attitude toward people. I think my religion was too much a list of things I didn't do or didn't believe in- rules, rules, and more rules. Disgusting. This is just my opinion and how I feel about it now.

About the star, I think there are signs in the heavens and this was an amazing one. But I can't imagine Jupiter leading the magi to the house where Jesus was and stopping overhead. It seems to me you could travel hundreds of miles without seeing any difference in the angle to Jupiter. So maybe that was an angel. Also just my opinion.

Might a been "Wheels within wheels with eyes all around".... OH YEAH, and wherever the Spirit moved the wheels went without turning as they went.... GLORY!  :laugh: And they cried "Holy, Holy, Holy- Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come, THE WHOLE EARTH is FULL OF HIS GLORY! ......

Boy oh boy, there is a lot of material on the web about what the star related to the birth of Jesus really was.  The more I looked at the opinions the more I realized there was not definite answer as to whether it was a miraculous event of a star ( heavenly messenger) leading the Magi (which I tend to believe) or an occurrence of celestial bodies that were part of this story. 

I do not ascribe to human reasoning to attempt to prove that God does not perform miracles.  Here are a few more thoughts on whether the star of Bethlehem was a physical astronomical phenomena or a God ordained miracle, I do not know for sure. Was it both?  Possibly.  One web site I read said that the physical sign in the heavens does provide a trace that God has been in control. Interesting.

So many of the web sites I visited had rational descriptions explaining the motion of the stars and planets  And the link that Molly gave was a very convincing video that this was an astronomical event and "proved" Christ was born on Dec. 25.  But many more sites had other well reasoned explanations ranging from the heavenly signs beginning in 6BC to 4BC and maybe more. It is interesting to note that Jupiter goes retrograde for about four months each year while Saturn - for about five months.  that is why so many thoughts and speculations about this miraculous occurrence.

What about Joshua's (10: 13-14) longest day or  the Sundial incident in Isaiah 38:8?  More man made explanations?

Below are some of the web sites I found related to this subject. I am sure there are more. I have to conclude by saying that many of the miracles of God are attempted to be explained by physical occurrences when they may indeed be miracles.  Some of these opinions on these sites below are pure nonsense (IMO) and I apologise for including them, but I found I have spent too much time on this subject to offer any more.

http://www.lasalle.edu/~smithsc/Astronomy/retrograd.html
http://epistle.us/articles/star.html
http://www.lunarium.co.uk/articles/about-retrograde-planets4.jsp
http://astrologyclub.org/why-planets-retrograde/
ttp://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_nasa_missing_day.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/joshuas_long_day.htm
http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/bethlehem-star.html
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c016.html
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1139

It all comes down to what we believe according to what we percieve to be the truth of scriptures and we can never all agree 100% in this life.

p.s. Micah - I do not see us having to worship the birth of Christ but rather to memorialize His death, as He who takes away the sins of the world and is the Saviour of ALL

Its all prophecy     
  everything    about Jesus christ from the beginning to end is PROPHECY   by the spirit of truth  being prophecy the foretelling of the events to take place

Luke 2:28-35


28] Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

[29] Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

[30] For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

[31] Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

[32] A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


[33] And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things, which were spoken of him.


[34] And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

[35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

   THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME  promised   long ago    !!  the short life of Jesus Christ   being   GODS WORD IN THE FLESH provided     this SPIRIT AND TRUTH   for all mankind         this is the celebration   TRUE     JUDGMENT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IN EFFECT

TILL GOD BE ALL IN ALL ..

  romans 5 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;


15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.


16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace,

so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...

under the law  of Moses    to  under Grace  by Jesus Christ the lamb of GOD  who come to   take away the sins of the world !!! 
 
I can see the witness in the  earthly and natural realm as well as the Spiritual   witness   all glorifies God  as fulfilling HIS WILL   

Romans 8  Be Ruled by the Spirit


8 So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not ·judged guilty [condemned; punished for their sins].


2 [L For] ·Through [or In] Christ Jesus the ·law [principle; or power] of the Spirit that brings life set you free from the ·law [principle; or power] that brings sin and death. 3


The law [C of Moses] was without power, because the law was made weak by our ·sinful selves [sinful nature; T flesh].



But God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son to earth ·with the same human life that others use for sin [or in a body like ours, prone to sin; L in the likeness of sinful flesh]. By sending his Son ·to be an offering for sin [L concerning sin], God ·used a human life to destroy sin [L condemned sin in the flesh].


4 He did this so that ·we could be the kind of people that the law demands that we be [L the law's righteous/just requirements would be fulfilled in us]. Now we do not ·live [walk; C life's journey] following our ·sinful selves [sinful nature; T flesh], but following the Spirit.


a new nature and creature HOLY TO GOD   IS   THE FIRST OF ITS KIND     and died so  the new creation   would be brought forth from HIM and HIM ONLY BY HIS OWN SPIRIT
HIS DEATH BRINGS NEW LIFE OUT FROM DEATH


55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;


57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ....


and where there is NO LAW   THERE IS NO POWER OF  SIN because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression/ERROR /SIN .   WOW!!    FORGIVENESS IS  WHAT  IS   HOLY AND PURE AND OF GOD
FORGIVE THEM FATHER  FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!!   JESUS HUNG ON THE TREE  OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL    , AND HIM BEING THE TREE OF LIFE   that new LIFE  COMES !

Yes, it all comes down to what you said Rose.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: joeteekay on December 31, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Yes, it all comes down to what you said Rose.  :thumbsup:

  Dear Brother   Joe , I know the Star   in the night was to guide them to Christ ,  but the LIGHT  HAS COME!!  Jesus Christ is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD  =DAY
  these are the things I have been studying  since Tentmaker is down so much   lately
and so sorry this was so bold  , but I thank you   that you are able to hear  the message !!
Truly   GOD IS  GREAT!!     :HeartThrob:

Quote from: joeteekay on December 31, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Yes, it all comes down to what you said Rose.  :thumbsup:

"p.s. Micah - I do not see us having to worship the birth of Christ but rather to memorialize His death, as He who takes away the sins of the world and is the Saviour of ALL."

The understanding I have is that EVERY day is a joyous inward celebration and recognition of Jesus Christ the RESURRECTION. He Is Risen.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living." We are instructed to believe.
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;


PS. Please do not interpret this as a recognition of a special day to celebrate such as easter. :2c:

I have realized myself that the idea about Joseph & Mary being poor is BS:

They were denied a room at the inn, not because they lacked the money, but because it was NO VACANCY.

Mary's uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was one of the richest men of his time.  These were not bottom-rung people.

The fact that Jesus "stood up to read" in the synagogue tells us that his family as affluent enough to provide Him with an education.  What was the literacy rate in Judea in those days?  Not terribly high among the poor, I'm sure.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 31, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
I have realized myself that the idea about Joseph & Mary being poor is BS:

They were denied a room at the inn, not because they lacked the money, but because it was NO VACANCY.

Mary's uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was one of the richest men of his time.  These were not bottom-rung people.

The fact that Jesus "stood up to read" in the synagogue tells us that his family as affluent enough to provide Him with an education.  What was the literacy rate in Judea in those days?  Not terribly high among the poor, I'm sure.

:thumbsup:

Really, who knows. Maybe He learned in the temple. Maybe they were often on the run. Maybe they were lower middle class, maybe Jesus puled whatever coins they needed out of a fishes mouth to care for the family after Joseph passed away. I am sure there is a reason Mary asked Jesus to turn the water into wine at the feast. He had probably done similar things around the house or 20 years or so. Who knows? :o)

You "maybe" correct EW, but then again....what does it really even matter?

 :iagree:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 31, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
I have realized myself that the idea about Joseph & Mary being poor is BS:

They were denied a room at the inn, not because they lacked the money, but because it was NO VACANCY.

Mary's uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was one of the richest men of his time.  These were not bottom-rung people.

The fact that Jesus "stood up to read" in the synagogue tells us that his family as affluent enough to provide Him with an education.  What was the literacy rate in Judea in those days?  Not terribly high among the poor, I'm sure.

Sorry to be against the grain again....  :laugh:
While it's true Joseph of Arimathea was far beyond rich from grain and tin trade, Jesus' parents were (dirt) poor. Scripture says so....

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Lev 12:1-8
1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
2 Speak to the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying three score and six days.
6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to the priest:
7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that has born a male or a female.
8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.




Pssst, of course she secretly had a Lamb  :winkgrin:

Very cool.