There's been discussion off and on about whether Jesus is "just" a spirit, i.e., invisible, or whether there can actually be a physical, literal body, albeit spiritual as well; i.e., the raised, mortal-having-put-on-immortal, glorified body. (I Corinthians 15). The body the disciples saw and touched. The body the angels saw ascend.
I would suggest it's the same body Paul talks about in Colossians 2:9. As I understand, Paul is talking post-cross, post-ascension, and in the PRESENT tense.
In Colossians 2:9, the Greek word, somatikos, is used for Jesus' present body. Somatikos means physical, tangible body.
sOmatikOs
G4985
Adv
BODily
I found these questions from towertotruth.net, in response to the Jehovah's Witnesses; who apparently believe Jesus is strictly a spirit.
They ask; "If Jesus was resurrected as an invisible spirit, as the Watchtower teaches, why did Jesus say he was going to raise his physical body from the dead (John 2:19-22)?
If Jesus, the man, ceased to exist at his death and was raised from the dead as Michael the Archangel, why did Michael deceive the apostles into believing that they were witnessing Jesus in a resurrected physical body (Luke 24:39)?
If Jesus is now living in heaven as an invisible spirit creature, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Paul write many years after the ascension of Christ that he is dwelling in heaven in a physical body (Colossians 2:9)? Note: The Greek word, somatikos, means physical, tangible body."
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. NLT
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, ESV
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, NAS
because all the essence of deity inhabits him in bodily form. ISV
The Christian Bible (as often is the case) says it best;
For it is in Him that all the fullness of God Himself is continually making a home in a bodily form
:cloud9: I think they're missing something. When He spoke to Nicodemus, He essentially said, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven. So the fullness of God was dwelling in Him in a flesh body, yet He said He was in heaven.
And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth.
Also, He had to raise His physical body from the grave, to prove death could not hold Him. If only the spirit raised, that would be no different than any of us. Once that was abundantly clear, IMO, THEN He could ascend in a glorified body where He remains as such.
When Elijah was caught up and his mantle fell, they saw him no more, but only saw Elisha with his mantle. In the same vein, He was caught up and they saw Him no more, but they saw His mantle, ie. His anointing on His disciples. And so it will be with us when the work is finished. My :2c: Blessings....
What a nice way to tell me you think I'm all wet :LH:. Thanks Card! :HeartThrob:
OK, now, gettin' serious. :ticked: I agree, we are the body of Christ. (I'll admit it's a bit more than I can grasp) but I personally believe that's in a symbolic, spiritual sense - which IMO, doesn't strip Jesus of His glorified physical body. I believe this is another one of those instances where it's not either/or - it's both. It does take it from a strictly natural sense to a deeper spiritual one. But IMO, the spiritual application doesn't do away with other aspects of the truth - it takes it deeper. ***For instance, what make this, "And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth." mean Jesus is, for lack of a better term, "physically invisible"?
Just before the Colossians 2:9 verse, in Colossians 1:19, to me, it's obviously talking about Jesus; "It is so because God was delighted to make a home in Him in all His fullness.." Then it goes on to talk about His blood and Him reconciling us. This isn't about us, it's about Him - and then yes, what He does in and through us. But IMO, it's still about Him. Always has been, always will be - until He hands all to the Father.
Now - bottom line, as we've talked about before. He is Who He IS, and that's perfect. Whether a strictly/exclusively Spirit, or a Spirit with a glorified body, in the end it probably won't matter, because again, All that He IS and All that He has planned is exactly as it should and needs to be.
Now, some more general statements;
I like to dig for nuggets sometimes. Hopefully in this thread we won't get the quick hits of "I'm on this side", "I'm on that side". Maybe we can really dig and be open to what's there, instead of [I know you don't do this Card] just taking some teacher's word for it - whether orthodox or a popular UR brother or sister - or what I've always thought. :mblush: Uhummm LOL
Maybe I'm wrong, not interpreting it accurately, and maybe I will come with time, to see it differently. But right at this moment, I just see it as both. I know we've got 2 sides here in the forum, and I need to be open to God's truth - whatever that is on this topic. How about anyone else? Willing to really dig and think about it without knee-jerk reactions? :bigGrin:
The body. Spiritual, literal, or both?
I'm looking for any scriptures about "we will see Jesus", etc., then the Q is, what does that mean? Literally, with spiritual eyes, in us as believers, etc., or evidence of all those things. Anything come to mind with anyone?
The first Adam was a man of flesh and blood. (with a dead spirit)
Jesus came as a man of flesh and blood too. He died. He got resurrected and showed Himself to several people. He (still) had a body of flesh and blood.
Jesus has been showing us things all His life. But one of His last signs is wrong?
If life after (our) resurrection is only spirit life then why didn't Jesus show Himself as spirit? Why did he even let Thomas touch his wounds (=body_)
He even said He'll drink wine in Heaven. Now I'm not saying spirits can't drink, but it at least points a little to a body. Scripture speaks about glorified bodies. Etc.
But why? To symbolize there are no physical bodies?
Don't think so.
Well Thomas never touched the Lord, he fell on his knees well before that.
But I know what you mean. The disciples thought Jesus was a ghost when they saw him in Luke and the Lord told them to bring food to prove that He was no ghost.
I think the best picture of a glorified body is:
1Co 15:35-53 But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming? (36) Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. (37) And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest." (38) Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body." (39) Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes." (40) There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, (41) another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory." (42) Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. (43) It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. (44) It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. (45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials." (49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial." (50) Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (51) Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, (52) in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."
To my understanding, the glorified body is something totally new which we cannot understand by mere reasonning.
More than flesh and blood and more than spirit.
:bigGrin:
I believe that we will see Jesus himself in his resurrected body and that we shall be like him. We will have both the glorified body and the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I believe the glorified body is the one we were always meant to have, as Paul says--you plant this seed and whatever God has prepared grows out of the ground. It's a farming metaphor. The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed. We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal, and glorified body.
I think that now, in these fragile bodies, we carry as much of Christ as we are appointed to--we are able to manifest parts of his Spirit. So now we are only his non resurrected 'body', each performing a different function, but then, when we are like him, the Christ will be a hologram, each piece complete, whole, and perfected in itself--body, soul, and Spirit.
Is Christ now just a Spirit? When the heavens opened for Samuel, he saw the resurrected Christ standing at the right hand of God. So there's the answer.
Also the idea of wine in old wineskins, this body we have now is the old wineskin, the new wine would burst these skins, hence we need a new body first. God prepared the body for Jesus to walk in on this earth, so that he could carry the fulness in a non resurrected body.
You want scripture. I'll work on it. :laughing7:
QuoteIt's a farming metaphor. The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed. We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal, and glorified body
:thumbsup:
Exactly!
Quote from: Quaesitor on September 14, 2010, 04:13:43 PM
QuoteIt's a farming metaphor. The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed. We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal, and glorified body
:thumbsup:
Exactly!
Yes, and we have the seed in us now--Christ in you, the hope of glory!
(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car ==> New car (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SYtOgwnjmGI/AAAAAAABh1w/K1Mr7o5h9YE/s200/Lambo-Countach.jpg)
OR
(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car ==> New car (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ho23wR5LXAVyAM:http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/6/7/7/7/4/t1115742-81-thumb-Image22.jpg?d=1167439581)
The Garments of Eden:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes28.htm
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 08:03:49 AM
What a nice way to tell me you think I'm all wet :LH:. Thanks Card! :HeartThrob:
OK, now, gettin' serious. :ticked: I agree, we are the body of Christ. (I'll admit it's a bit more than I can grasp) but I personally believe that's in a symbolic, spiritual sense - which IMO, doesn't strip Jesus of His glorified physical body. I believe this is another one of those instances where it's not either/or - it's both. It does take it from a strictly natural sense to a deeper spiritual one. But IMO, the spiritual application doesn't do away with other aspects of the truth - it takes it deeper. ***For instance, what make this, "And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth." mean Jesus is, for lack of a better term, "physically invisible"?
Just before the Colossians 2:9 verse, in Colossians 1:19, to me, it's obviously talking about Jesus; "It is so because God was delighted to make a home in Him in all His fullness.." Then it goes on to talk about His blood and Him reconciling us. This isn't about us, it's about Him - and then yes, what He does in and through us. But IMO, it's still about Him. Always has been, always will be - until He hands all to the Father.
Now - bottom line, as we've talked about before. He is Who He IS, and that's perfect. Whether a strictly/exclusively Spirit, or a Spirit with a glorified body, in the end it probably won't matter, because again, All that He IS and All that He has planned is exactly as it should and needs to be.
Now, some more general statements;
I like to dig for nuggets sometimes. Hopefully in this thread we won't get the quick hits of "I'm on this side", "I'm on that side". Maybe we can really dig and be open to what's there, instead of [I know you don't do this Card] just taking some teacher's word for it - whether orthodox or a popular UR brother or sister - or what I've always thought. :mblush: Uhummm LOL
Maybe I'm wrong, not interpreting it accurately, and maybe I will come with time, to see it differently. But right at this moment, I just see it as both. I know we've got 2 sides here in the forum, and I need to be open to God's truth - whatever that is on this topic. How about anyone else? Willing to really dig and think about it without knee-jerk reactions? :bigGrin:
The body. Spiritual, literal, or both?
:cloud9: I had to read this twice and my own twice to see where your first comment here came in at.... :mblush:
I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm not saying spirit only, as in not even a glorified body, I'm saying the way I see it, He's not coming back in a FLESH AND BLOOD body again like the one He laid down, EXCEPT "ours". Clear as mud? :dontknow: :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
I was reading this the other day and I wondered---Did Daniel see Jesus?
6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
--Daniel 10
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
--Rev 1
:cloud9: I've always thought so. I think He was seeing Jesus AS His body, His body both in earth (brass = those still in the judgment of the flesh) and in heaven (voice of MANY). Blessings....
Can't help but think of the fact that very few men in the flesh have seen Christ in his glorified state. Daniel was one, Ezekiel I think was another, but the most predominant was Peter, James and John. These bodies we're in are simply tents, they are temporary coverings in which our spirit dwells. We're to take care of them but not to give honor to them.
When I see people trying to push the idea that Jesus is going to return in the same body of flesh he died in, that's the first thing that strikes me, that we're wanting to honor the flesh. I seriously doubt people do this on purpose, but at the same time, there are many hidden actions we do without conscious purpose that are just as vain.
Try this on for size . . .do you know why the Holy Spirit couldn't come until after Jesus left? For me, it's because the spirit that poured out on all flesh in the upper room was the "same" spirit that was in the temporary body of Jesus. Yes?
So . . .if people still insist that Jesus is returning in that same body, that would then mean that his spirit would have to once again leave our bodies in order to return to his. I just don't see that happening . . AT ALL.
His body of flesh died, but when his spirit returned to it, he transformed the body into a glorified one . .one that people couldn't recognize. One that defied the laws of nature. But even with his glorified body, the spirit could not be poured out on all flesh until after the ascension. Which again tells me that if he is going to manifest again in that same body, his spirit would once again leave our collective body so that it could once again manifest in his individual body and I don't see that happening either.
Doesn't Paul even say that Jesus is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty? Why would we want to re-confine Jesus to one, individual body again when all along it's been his desire to have "us" be his body?
Good post, the typical image that we have of Jesus, long hair, beard, white skin, is not even the real Jesus. The scriptures say that the jews cut their hair short and the apostle Paul said it's a shame for a man to have long hair.
I think Christians are in for a shock when we see him what he actually looks like. So it's a danger that the image we have of him become's a false idol that we have grown to love and when we see him as he is, we might be put off, so I think it's important to prepare ones heart of false expectations. In other words not to fall in love with this false image we have of him. :2c:
Beard and long hair are thanks to Constantine
:cloud9: That's very true TT......and the remarkable thing about the time I saw Him thru the veil of someone's flesh is......I couldn't tell you exactly what He looked like, though it lasted probably for 10 minutes, maybe longer.
It seems impossible, but the carnal mind CANNOT grasp and hang onto, even what should be the simplest thing to remember, when you are dealing with PURE SPIRIT, and when He doesn't want you to "remember". Blessings....
Wasn't there a mention of the soldiers pulling out his beard at his crucifixion though?
Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2010, 08:55:42 PM
:cloud9: That's very true TT......and the remarkable thing about the time I saw Him thru the veil of someone's flesh is......I couldn't tell you exactly what He looked like, though it lasted probably for 10 minutes, maybe longer.
It seems impossible, but the carnal mind CANNOT grasp and hang onto, even what should be the simplest thing to remember, when you are dealing with PURE SPIRIT, and when He doesn't want you to "remember". Blessings....
You saw the lord :mshock: waw
:cloud9: Yes, I've seen Him twice, both times in the flesh of someone. One was painful to look at due to His condition in the person brought about by their actions, the other I mentioned here, I think I literally went into shock over it.
We always think about what would we do, what would we say, ect., when we see Him face to face.......well, I couldn't stop crying, patting this man's face, and tellling Him I loved Him. Since the man was someone I had only known for a week, imagine HIS shock, LOL...... :mblush: Blessings....
So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him? Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him. His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes. Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him. If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother? We will have new bodies; will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us? :OhNo:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2010, 04:20:30 PM
(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car ==> New car (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SYtOgwnjmGI/AAAAAAABh1w/K1Mr7o5h9YE/s200/Lambo-Countach.jpg)
OR
(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car ==> New car (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ho23wR5LXAVyAM:http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/6/7/7/7/4/t1115742-81-thumb-Image22.jpg?d=1167439581)
:thumbsup: I Cor. 15
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him? Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him. His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes. Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him. If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother? We will have new bodies; will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us? :OhNo:
On the one hand, Paul says we are looking in a dark mirror now, but then [the mirror will be clear and] we will be able to see him face to face. I take that literally to mean we will look in a mirror and see Jesus [in ourselves].
On the other hand, I agree with you-- I also agree we will see him, our big brother, our Lord and our God--and know him even as we are known.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2010, 04:06:48 PM
I believe that we will see Jesus himself in his resurrected body and that we shall be like him. We will have both the glorified body and the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I believe the glorified body is the one we were always meant to have, as Paul says--you plant this seed and whatever God has prepared grows out of the ground. It's a farming metaphor. The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed. We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal, and glorified body.
I think that now, in these fragile bodies, we carry as much of Christ as we are appointed to--we are able to manifest parts of his Spirit. So now we are only his non resurrected 'body', each performing a different function, but then, when we are like him, the Christ will be a hologram, each piece complete, whole, and perfected in itself--body, soul, and Spirit.
Is Christ now just a Spirit? When the heavens opened for Samuel, he saw the resurrected Christ standing at the right hand of God. So there's the answer.
Also the idea of wine in old wineskins, this body we have now is the old wineskin, the new wine would burst these skins, hence we need a new body first. God prepared the body for Jesus to walk in on this earth, so that he could carry the fulness in a non resurrected body.
You want scripture. I'll work on it. :laughing7:
:first: I'm gonna re-read this. Lots here Molly.
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him? Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him. His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes. Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him. If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother? We will have new bodies; will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us? :OhNo:
:cloud9: Interesting point. Shortly before I had this experience of seeing Him literally full body in someone, I felt like a fireball of the HG hit me in the chest, and I felt it rolling around in me. The glory was heavy on me, and I asked Him what He was doing. He spoke, "My love is now being shed abroad in your heart." Then when that subsided and I looked at this man sitting next to me, there He was, to my shock.
So obviously, I saw Him, but I can't explain why in that way. :dontknow: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2010, 10:03:13 PM
So obviously, I saw Him, but I can't explain why in that way. :dontknow: Blessings....
:thumbsup:
I think I have to disagree at this point that He won't return and be present in bodily form. I agree He is and will be present in us His spiritual body, but ALSO;
"For you have died, and your Life [in the Last Age] has been hidden together with the Anointed One in God. When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory." Cololssians 3:3,4 The Christian Bible
I say, "Glory"!
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
I think I have to disagree at this point that He won't return and be present in bodily form. I agree He is and will be present in us His spiritual body, but ALSO;
"For you have died, and your Life [in the Last Age] has been hidden together with the Anointed One in God. When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory." Cololssians 3:3,4 The Christian Bible
I say, "Glory"!
Col 3--Isn't that the same as this?
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
And, this?
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
I think I have to disagree at this point that He won't return and be present in bodily form. I agree He is and will be present in us His spiritual body, but ALSO;
"For you have died, and your Life [in the Last Age] has been hidden together with the Anointed One in God. When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory." Cololssians 3:3,4 The Christian Bible
I say, "Glory"!
I'm not questioning whether or not he appears, I'm questioning the form in which he appears. That's why we hear the term frequentlyl on the form He "is" coming, he "has" come and he "will continue" to come.
When he resurrected and went back to his loved ones, they didn't recognize him either because they were still looking for the old form that he left in. He returned to them in a resurrected state and then ascended . . only to return again in power to live "in" us and even now, we still expect the old form to manifest again?
To some, he comes as a ray of light. But to others who have been in a drought, he comes as a thunderhead. he comes to all of us, but the form is never the same because our experiences, needs and situations are never the same.
Paul talks about these bodies of ours dying as well and putting on immortality, but until we experience that, our minds can only come up with images (imaginations) which don't even come close to the reallity of what's on the other side. He came in the flesh so we, in the flesh could "see" him and be changed. But once we pass over into the spirit, that doesn't mean that he's still going to manifest in the same form that he did when we were in the flesh. It will appear, make no mistake about that, but what form that entails is a whole other matter.
Yikes. That preposition could be 'in'. :mshock:
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"with"
G1722
εν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2010, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him? Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him. His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes. Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him. If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother? We will have new bodies; will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us? :OhNo:
:cloud9: Interesting point. Shortly before I had this experience of seeing Him literally full body in someone, I felt like a fireball of the HG hit me in the chest, and I felt it rolling around in me. The glory was heavy on me, and I asked Him what He was doing. He spoke, "My love is now being shed abroad in your heart." Then when that subsided and I looked at this man sitting next to me, there He was, to my shock.
So obviously, I saw Him, but I can't explain why in that way. :dontknow: Blessings....
Allow me to explain if I may through the scriptures.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will
manifest myself to him.
So it seems your keeping Gods commandments card, a rare christian, well done :grin:
John
18 I will not leave you comfortless: [1] I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The world cannot see him currently, but we see him through the holy ghost. But the scriptures declare that one day even the world will see him.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
The saints will also return to earth with him
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints
Even the old testament propecies this return
Deutoronomy
33And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery [1] law for them.
So to me not only is God manifesting to us now through his spirit, but also will return to earth in his resurected body in whatever form he chooses, with his saints also in their resurected bodies.
God bless Jesus
Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 10:53:12 PM
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
I think I have to disagree at this point that He won't return and be present in bodily form. I agree He is and will be present in us His spiritual body, but ALSO;
"For you have died, and your Life [in the Last Age] has been hidden together with the Anointed One in God. When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory." Cololssians 3:3,4 The Christian Bible
I say, "Glory"!
I'm not questioning whether or not he appears, I'm questioning the form in which he appears. That's why we hear the term frequentlyl on the form He "is" coming, he "has" come and he "will continue" to come.
When he resurrected and went back to his loved ones, they didn't recognize him either because they were still looking for the old form that he left in. He returned to them in a resurrected state and then ascended . . only to return again in power to live "in" us and even now, we still expect the old form to manifest again?
To some, he comes as a ray of light. But to others who have been in a drought, he comes as a thunderhead. he comes to all of us, but the form is never the same because our experiences, needs and situations are never the same.
Paul talks about these bodies of ours dying as well and putting on immortality, but until we experience that, our minds can only come up with images (imaginations) which don't even come close to the reallity of what's on the other side. He came in the flesh so we, in the flesh could "see" him and be changed. But once we pass over into the spirit, that doesn't mean that he's still going to manifest in the same form that he did when we were in the flesh. It will appear, make no mistake about that, but what form that entails is a whole other matter.
I agree with most if not all of this. I understand the beliefs some have about Him only appearing as He went away to mean, "in the clouds", as in, "apparent in PEOPLE". I've heard that one. True enough the disciples didn't recognize Him, but I personally don't get any indication that it was because His form appeared to be non-human, or ET'ish, or like some sort of wispy octopuss, etc. :bigGrin: It was apparently different somehow, glorified (whatever that means exactly), but still (I believe) a "human-type" form. As WW pointed out earlier, he ate, drank, and invited to be physically touched. However, at the same time, He was able to pass through walls, appear and re-appear. So my personal belief is, although He does and will appear in the clouds of saints, that's not all it was talking about when the angels said this same Jesus YOU ARE GAZING AT will come again in like manner.
Molly, looks like along with the Colossians scriptures I mentioned, you've come up with another couple re: seeing Him. I'll look at some other translations on those verses. :thumbsup:
Good post TT.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2010, 10:56:12 PM
Yikes. That preposition could be 'in'. :mshock:
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"with"
G1722
εν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Most literal translation from the Koine Greek I'm aware of;
1 Thessalonians 3:13
so that He might solidly establish your hearts unblamable in purity in front of our God and Father at our Master Yesu's Presence with all of His Pure Ones [at the beginning of the Last Age]!
Jude 1:14
Now about these people Enoch (the seventh from Adam) also prophesied, saying, "Notice, the Master came with many thousands of His Pure Ones..." The Christian Bible (1991)
Of course his form was humanly after the resurrection, he was still submitting himself to the laws of nature and all that. For me, I'm not worried so much on the form, I see him more as light. He's the ultimate illuminator and I think wherever there is life, there is light. Fire is it's own light . .we all have light in us, but our minds are what makes it dark because with light and illumination is limitless vision and understanding . . .but with these limited minds we have now, all they can come up with are shadows, shades of light. And Jesus even went so far as to say the greatest darkness is with those who think light is in them when it's acutally darkness.
Friggin mind anyway. Works wonderfully in this realm . . .screws up everything in the spiritual realm though.
We only use a little bit of it, and sometimes in my case it's painfully obvious. :laugh2:
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2010, 12:49:23 AM
We only use a little bit of it, and sometimes in my case it's painfully obvious. :laugh2:
:cloud9: Have you ever thought about how carnal men talk about wanting to access more than the 10% of it? Look what a mess it's made of things already and they want MORE??? :help:
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2010, 10:56:12 PM
Yikes. That preposition could be 'in'. :mshock:
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"with"
G1722
εν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
:cloud9: Yes, what a difference one word can make, eh? Sort of the like the thousands of saints, as in, the 144,000?
There sure are a lot of interpretation on the 144,000. Some claim they're only from the Jewish nation. :dontknow:
That Greek word 'en' apparently has tranlsation options of in, amongst/among, or with; from what I find the most literal translation appears to be with.
Of course we can proclaim He's in, among, and with us now; however, I believe even more so at His "glorious appearing". :2c:
Exactly what that looks like, it will be glorious! :gimmefive:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 15, 2010, 01:55:43 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2010, 12:49:23 AM
We only use a little bit of it, and sometimes in my case it's painfully obvious. :laugh2:
:cloud9: Have you ever thought about how carnal men talk about wanting to access more than the 10% of it? Look what a mess it's made of things already and they want MORE??? :help:
Hmmm...interesting point. Maybe dim's not so bad after all. :NewB1:
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2010, 02:07:09 AM
There sure are a lot of interpretation on the 144,000. Some claim they're only from the Jewish nation. :dontknow:
:cloud9: I like the one I heard.....men/spirit not defiled with women/soul = Jews. Blessings.....
The beauty of all of this is that the blood of the Lamb is the only power-source that can reverse our whoring nature back into a virgin state. We become the pure and spotless bride simply because he declares it over us. That's just too awesome!
:cloud9: AMEN
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him? Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him. His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes. Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him. If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother? We will have new bodies; will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us? :OhNo:
I looked in Strongs and found no "glorified body" nor "glorified flesh(body)" I did not think there was. From my understanding God is Spirit (Jo. 4:24) and Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you
are spirit, and they are life;
I will say this, there is a great difference in Spirit, spiritual, and [spiritualizing] the first two are real and have substance, the later is the weakness and hunger of mans mind to see something, a proof of mans ignorance.
Job 19:26 And after my skin hath compassed this body , Then from my flesh I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I--I see on my side, And mine eyes have beheld, and not a stranger, Consumed have been my reins in my bosom.
1Jn 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I certainly could be missing something, but I
personally wouldn't take Strong's as the definitive resource. I think the term is more descriptive, than an actual phrase. Sort of like Strong's wouldn't have Judas and the word suicide linked together, yet it appears that's likely what's described in the scriptures.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2010, 07:07:29 AM
like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
Amen.
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:39).
"But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?... 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is
raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is
raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a
spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
It is spirit because it is no longer earthly, not corruptible, not of dust. "It [the body] is raised in glory". Like I said, I may be missing something, but to my understanding that equals what's described as a "glorified body".
Blessings, James.
I found an interesting site - perhaps a bit orthodox, not sure, but they talk about the resurrection, Jesus' resurrected body the disciples saw; they also suggest Saul saw Jesus' (OK, I'll put it in quotes :laughing7:) "glorified body" prior to his conversion; i.e., the Light. They also note his referring to Jesus by name differently prior to and after his conversion. Some interesting thoughts.
It's here, and I thought the most interesting was about half-way down (if you want to scan real quick); the headings were "The Form Is Different", "The Fashion Is That of Light", and The Figure of the New Body is the Lord's Glorified Body". Might be worth a look.
http://www.heavenpastpresentfuture.com/Chapter17.html
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2010, 08:44:47 AM
I found an interesting site - perhaps a bit orthodox, not sure, but they talk about the resurrection, Jesus' resurrected body the disciples saw; they also suggest Saul saw Jesus' (OK, I'll put it in quotes :laughing7:) "glorified body" prior to his conversion; i.e., the Light. They also note his referring to Jesus by name differently prior to and after his conversion. Some interesting thoughts.
It's here, and I thought the most interesting was about half-way down (if you want to scan real quick); the headings were "The Form Is Different", "The Fashion Is That of Light", and The Figure of the New Body is the Lord's Glorified Body". Might be worth a look.
http://www.heavenpastpresentfuture.com/Chapter17.html
Yes, Paul saw the resurrected Christ. That's what blinded him. It's the same resurrected body that was shown to the disciples at the transfiguration, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets--
His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.--Mat 17
It is the same body that Thomas and the disciples saw in the upper room which Jesus called, 'flesh and bone,' [as opposed to 'flesh and blood'].
It is the body vivified by the life giving Spirit, which the believers know and share among the body as the blood of Christ.
... the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
--1 Cor 15
Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Love it! Molly's mining gold.
This thought came to me when I was praying about the issue of glorified bodies, existence, and what not:
Light does not abandon its colour, hue, and shade after striving to become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave. Its colour, hue, and shade in fact shine more brightly, and vibrant, and more beautifully real than before because it has become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.
We don't abandon our being, and individual design because of glorification - we become beautified perfected forms of who we are - Deity indwelt, and divine indwelling; Human!
The physical manifestation of the concept of light, whose being is electromagnetism, is visible colour, and energy.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a Spirit, is a visible body.
The physical manifesation of God, whose being is Spirit-Love-Truth-Life-Perfect, is his glory, and excellence both invisible, and visible.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a God-indwelt Spirit must therefore be a visible body filled with God's Love, Truth, Life, Perfection, Glory, and Excellence both invisible, and visible.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
--Mat 24
Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
--Mat 24
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
Leviticus 25:9
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
Joshua 6:5
And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7555EtvhwKQ
Revelation 1
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Similar description found here
Daniel 10
Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness [4] was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
Another scripture which shows the glory of his countanance
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Quote from: Lefein on September 15, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
This thought came to me when I was praying about the issue of glorified bodies, existence, and what not:
Light does not abandon its colour, hue, and shade after striving to become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave. Its colour, hue, and shade in fact shine more brightly, and vibrant, and more beautifully real than before because it has become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.
We don't abandon our being, and individual design because of glorification - we become beautified perfected forms of who we are - Deity indwelt, and divine indwelling; Human!
The physical manifestation of the concept of light, whose being is electromagnetism, is visible colour, and energy.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a Spirit, is a visible body.
The physical manifesation of God, whose being is Spirit-Love-Truth-Life-Perfect, is his glory, and excellence both invisible, and visible.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a God-indwelt Spirit must therefore be a visible body filled with God's Love, Truth, Life, Perfection, Glory, and Excellence both invisible, and visible.
Beautiful post. The thought of such glory invokes worship.
"both invisible, and visible" - IMO, this goes toward explaining Jesus' passing through walls, apparently "transporting" Himself and such...not an earthly body, a spiritual body, just as the scriptures say. Good explanation of the details. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2010, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Lefein on September 15, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
This thought came to me when I was praying about the issue of glorified bodies, existence, and what not:
Light does not abandon its colour, hue, and shade after striving to become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave. Its colour, hue, and shade in fact shine more brightly, and vibrant, and more beautifully real than before because it has become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.
We don't abandon our being, and individual design because of glorification - we become beautified perfected forms of who we are - Deity indwelt, and divine indwelling; Human!
The physical manifestation of the concept of light, whose being is electromagnetism, is visible colour, and energy.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a Spirit, is a visible body.
The physical manifesation of God, whose being is Spirit-Love-Truth-Life-Perfect, is his glory, and excellence both invisible, and visible.
The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a God-indwelt Spirit must therefore be a visible body filled with God's Love, Truth, Life, Perfection, Glory, and Excellence both invisible, and visible.
Beautiful post. The thought of such glory invokes worship.
"both invisible, and visible" - IMO, this goes toward explaining Jesus' passing through walls, apparently "transporting" Himself and such...not an earthly body, a spiritual body, just as the scriptures say. Good explanation of the details. :thumbsup:
Extremely well said . .I'm lovin' it!!
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
--Rev 20
This is the first resurrection. Does it correspond to what is normally called the 'rapture verse'?
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And, does it also correspond to what the writers of Hebrews calls a 'better resurrection'?
..and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[Heb 11]
Is this thousand year reign of Christ and his saints a time when those in glorified bodies will live alongside the rest of humanity, ruling and reigning with Christ?
I wanted to just throw out one verse or two . . .but Jeeze . .the whole 2nd chapter of 1 Corithians really hits on what some of our conversations the last couple days have been about. Seeing EVERYTHING spiritually. I get accused of being "super spiritual" or "over-spiritualizing" things but at the same time, there's so much more truth "beneath" passages that they just sorta spring out with a life of their own. But here's how Paul put it.
1 Corinthians 2
6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God[c]—his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,
"No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him."[d]
10 But[e] it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. (Upon this rock I will build my church) For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets.(Personal revelation!!) 11 No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12 And we have received God's Spirit (not the world's spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.
13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[f] 14 But people who aren't spiritual[g] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. 16 For,
"Who can know the Lord's thoughts?
Who knows enough to teach him?"[h]
But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.
Okay . . .using spiritual terms then, I would propose that this passage in 1 Thessalonians . .as well as Revelation and pretty much all of Scripture . . .has an INWARD understanding rather than a literal one that the church seems to embrace so much of.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
The dead in Christ . . .not our past friends and relatives who were Christians but died . .this is the walking dead. People who can't seem to realize life is in them, but they need Jesus to ignite that life in them. Okay . . I truly believe he is talking about a Sabbath experience in that God will REVEAL himself to the spiritually dead and those of us who are spiritually alive will be caught up with them because we're seeing God manifest in our spiritually dead friends and neighbors . . .isn't that awesome enough as it is? So in their utopia experience with the Father . . .we ALL will advance in the kingdom together as one body.
It's as the passage says . . .the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth (flesh) as the waters cover the sea. It's as I shared on another thread today . . . God is going to be in ALL revealing himself to each person individually so that no teaching will be necessary because people are going to know the nature of the Father and I believe that's beginning to happen now. The more we see the Father's nature, the more contrasts we see in the traditional churches out there.
Nathan, so are you saying the first resurrection only concerns people who are living at the time it happens? And, they will rule and reign with Christ one thousand years? Or what?
No, I'm saying it's beyond the framework of natural time and space. I'm saying that EVERYTHING in Revelation is tied to the pattern of the Tabernacle, which is patterned after Christ. The thousand year reign . . .think about some of what we're saying here . . .We're supposedly going to rule and reign a literal thousand years after Christ . . .yet the rest of eternity we won't?
We agree in Genesis that serpents don't eat dust so we look for a spiritual application, but yet in Revelation, we want to apply things literally all over again.
In the tabernacle, there was one room set apart from all other rooms where if any "man" entered outside the designated 24 hour period of an entire year, he would die . . .and even if he did enter in the perimeters of that one day, they still tied a rope to his foot just in case the blood offering he was to sprinkle in the mercy seat would not be accepted. "That" room was where God "lived" with his children. The Holy of holies. It was the most highest ranking part of the entire tabernacle. It represented the heart of God. The most intimate place one could be in God. In it was the Ark that contained three elements . . .the law, the prophets and the manna . . .the three combined equaled Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They equal "God".
The key to this is . .it's dimensions. it was 10x10x10 . . .the thousand year reign is a spiritual pattern and spirit is not to be applied to the flesh, the flesh is to be applied to the spirit. Which simply means what 1 Corinthians was also saying. These are not things that come through studying and reasoning, they come by way of relationship. The reason why relationship is so key is because "that" is what creates the openness to recieve things we don't understand. It's what activates faith.
A man's mind, immediately becomes defensive when it comes to things it can't comprehend. Paul stated that the reason men can't see spiritual things is because they're still trying to apply their natural minds. So those that couldn't see the spiritual principle being shared, got defensive and then engaged in trying to denounce the spiritual principle.
That isn't the purpose of pointing out the problem. The purpose or the reason why Paul was saying that was not to get the listeners riled up and all mad at him, but it was to give them the opportunity to realize, God is calling them to a "spiritual" place and all they needed to do was lay down their laboring minds and "let" illumination reveal to them the meaning of all these buried mysteries.
The entire book of Revelation is an unveiling of the nature of Jesus. The thousand year reign is what transpires when we find that secret place, that place of intimacy where we become one with the Father. The ruling and reigning is the fulfillment of the words declared over us that we are kings and priests. When I enter into the intimate place of the Father, I'm engaging in my destiny.
I think that when the literal 1001 year comes to manifest, there won't be a cry in the heavens saying "uh oh . . .times up" and it's over. I think it's an inward realization that in every aspect of our lives, here and now, and in the hearafter, we are "seated" with him in heavenly places on both sides of the defining line of natural death and spiritual life.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To me believing in a literal fullfilment of the above passage is being spiritual minded and the great hope of Christianity, as this scriptures says
13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[f] 14 But people who aren't spiritual[g] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others
Ask anyone without Christ whether it's possible for Christ to return and resurect the dead and they will laugh you to scorn being scoffers, for the spiritual things are foolishness to them and they cannot comprehend Christ or see him, for they use their natural eyes, but Gods people use spiritual eyes and can discern the voice of God.
2Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is another verse which explains that when Christ returns, he will raise those that are in Christ at his coming.
May the lord YAH, Jesus Christ reveal his truths to each one of us through his teaching spirit, amen.
QuoteA man's mind, immediately becomes defensive when it comes to things it can't comprehend. Paul stated that the reason men can't see spiritual things is because they're still trying to apply their natural minds. So those that couldn't see the spiritual principle being shared, got defensive and then engaged in trying to denounce the spiritual principle.
Must be why Jesus so loved children and said we had to be like them because they don't try to understand things with their mind, they don't filter what's being said to them, they just believe and act upon that faith.
When you say to a child that Jesus is in his heart, he'll literally lift his shirt and say hello to Jesus.(actually happenend to a friend's kid...haha)
:laughing7:
exactly. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Nathan on September 16, 2010, 09:06:07 PM
I get accused of being "super spiritual" or "over-spiritualizing" things but at the same time, there's so much more truth "beneath" passages that they just sorta spring out with a life of their own.
:cloud9: All of your post was good, :thumbsup: but I'd like to address this part of it, because I feel it needs to be said, that IMO it's IMPOSSIBLE to "over-spiritualize", because WE are not the ones "spiritualizing" it in the first place.
You can only "see" the spiritual, because the Spirit opened your eyes to the spiritual application to the scripture. When it happens, it's revelation, and part of the veil being rent in us. My :2c: Blessings....
amen.
I believe and understand that one can very well over "spiritualize," and many do.
I believe and understand that spirit and spiritual are how God reveals His Will to us; "spiritualizing" is not part of our learning. But, I believe you know that. There is a great difference between, "spirit," "spiritual;" spiritualizing is what man, natural, earthy conjures up. God is Spirit and works in the realm of the spiritual. I believe that is important. Again I have found myself awry sometimes on my posts.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 17, 2010, 05:45:13 AM
I believe and understand that one can very well over "spiritualize," and many do.
I believe and understand that spirit and spiritual are how God reveals His Will to us; "spiritualizing" is not part of our learning. But, I believe you know that. There is a great difference between, "spirit," "spiritual;" spiritualizing is what man, natural, earthy conjures up. God is Spirit and works in the realm of the spiritual. I believe that is important. Again I have found myself awry sometimes on my posts.
I see it much the same way micah. Being brought into the spirit and spiritual is a wonderful thing. I see spiritualizing, or maybe more accurately over-spiritualizing as our attempt to see things from such a spiritual perspective, that we can explain away or ignore other things that are still relevant and facts. On the other hand, I believe we can be so literal and orthodox, that we can miss the spiritual applications. Balance, being open to seeing the spiritual, literal,
and those things that are even
both. I can possibly error toward the literal at times, and I may be wrong, but I'm not sure erroring either direction is necessarily a good thing. :2c:
***From my view, this particular thread has been an excellent example of looking at facts, literal issues, while also taking in the spiritual aspects. I think it's been
very healthily balanced. :thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on September 17, 2010, 12:18:22 AM
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To me believing in a literal fullfilment of the above passage is being spiritual minded and the great hope of Christianity, as this scriptures says
Ask anyone without Christ whether it's possible for Christ to return and resurect the dead and they will laugh you to scorn being scoffers, for the spiritual things are foolishness to them and they cannot comprehend Christ or see him, for they use their natural eyes, but Gods people use spiritual eyes and can discern the voice of God.
To me, this is an
excellent example of having a healthy perspective of the spiritual aspect of the literal. This isn't saying one or the other don't exist, it's taking both into account - not getting so stuck on literal events that we may miss any spiritual aspects,
nor over-spiritualizing it to the point of saying "this is only a picture of what's happening inside of me when I'm raised to heavenly places in Christ, etc., etc." :thumbsup:
As a Pentecostal preacher once hollered, screamed, became exciteded in the joy of the Lord G L O R Y! at the top of his voice. And I was happy too! :happygrin:
Quotenor over-spiritualizing it to the point of saying "this is only a picture of what's happening inside of me when I'm raised to heavenly places in Christ, etc., etc."
Finally! Thank God!...Finally someone who has a much better way of putting what I was trying to say in novellous paragraphs! xD
:bigGrin:
I do believe there may often be some deeper 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level layer of spiritual application within the scriptures besides the primary application, and I for one OFTEN miss them or have no idea they're there until someone shares their revelation on it. I just don't think we should rush into those deeper layers to the exclusion of the primary application of the scriptures, even to the point of saying they don't exist.
I'm certainly no expert, but I kind'a see it like this - there can be 1) a literal "non-spiritual" reading and understanding, 2) a spiritual Spirit-revealed reading, understanding, and application, and 3) THEN other levels/layers of deeper spiritual meanings and nuggets - but IMO, never at the expense of throwing out #2, the primary spiritual Spirit-revealed understanding and application. :2c:
I'll stop now. I'm probably a level or two in over my head at this point. :mblush: These are just my understandings, I'm no Biblical scholar or expert teacher.
Very good sharing in this thread on Jesus' body. I'm very pleased. :Peace2:
"I'm certainly no expert, but I kind'a see it like this - there can be 1) a literal "non-spiritual" reading and understanding,"(Jabcat)
This I believe is the orthdox and community assembling way of seeing and teaching religion.
"2) a spiritual Spirit-revealed reading and application,"(Jabcat)
This I believe is the learning, but man, continues to mix earthy/carnal understanding and intellegence with the pure knowledge of Christ in me/you the hope of Glory. God is Spirit. The Words that Jesus spoke and speaks are Spirit and they are life. (Jo.6:63
"and 3) THEN other levels/layers of deeper spiritual meanings and nuggets."(Jabcat)
Yes as you my friend have often said, "we are miners." Keep me in your prayers. :bigGrin:
"But IMO, never at the expense of throwing out #2, the primary spiritual Spirit-revealed understanding and application."(Jabcat)
Amen
Yes, good points. I will remember you in prayer, please do the same for me. God bless.
Feet on the ground, head in heaven...
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--John 3
Great posts here by you ALL, great wisdom shown by jabcat including concerning different layers of truth behind a scripture, God bless you all.
Quote from: jabcat on September 17, 2010, 07:27:03 AMI do believe there may often be some deeper 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level layer of spiritual application within the scriptures besides the primary application, and I for one OFTEN miss them or have no idea they're there until someone shares their revelation on it. I just don't think we should rush into those deeper layers to the exclusion of the primary application of the scriptures, even to the point of saying they don't exist.
I wonder if the deeper layers can be truely understood if the 1st layer isn't understood.
It's like skipping primary school and then claiming you fully understood the lecture at uni.... :dontknow:
If the visible is for all intents and purposes "imaginary"...then it stands to reason that the invisible is twice as imaginary as the visible.
41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."
--Daniel 2
3How great are his signs,
how mighty his wonders!
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and his dominion endures from generation to generation.
--Dan 4
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'
--Daniel 7
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'
--Daniel 7
"dominions"
H7985
שׁלטן
sholṭân
shol-tawn'
(Chaldee); from H7981; empire (abstractly or concretely.): - dominion.
H7981
שׁלט
shelêṭ
shel-ate'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H7980: - have the mastery, have power, bear rule, be (make) ruler.
H7980
שׁלט
shâlaṭ
shaw-lat'
A primitive root; to dominate, that is, govern; by implication to permit: - (bear, have) rule, have dominion, give (have) power.
Mat 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2010, 08:40:32 PM
Quote from: jabcat on September 17, 2010, 07:27:03 AMI do believe there may often be some deeper 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level layer of spiritual application within the scriptures besides the primary application, and I for one OFTEN miss them or have no idea they're there until someone shares their revelation on it. I just don't think we should rush into those deeper layers to the exclusion of the primary application of the scriptures, even to the point of saying they don't exist.
I wonder if the deeper layers can be truely understood if the 1st layer isn't understood.
It's like skipping primary school and then claiming you fully understood the lecture at uni.... :dontknow:
I really don't think that can happen. I think it's all a combination of progression of maturity and openness. The high priest couldn't enter into the Holy of Holies without first addressing the altar of sacrifice leading into the outer court. Jesus stated that anyone who tries to enter through any other way other than the gate (which is Christ himself) they are a thief and a robber.
I think it's the same thing here. Before we enter into the depths we first must experience the shallows.
:cloud9: Exactly.....one must first be in the boat, before He can call you out of it......
PARDES....