Jesus' Body

[jabcat]

There's been discussion off and on about whether Jesus is "just" a spirit, i.e., invisible, or whether there can actually be a physical, literal body, albeit spiritual as well;  i.e., the raised, mortal-having-put-on-immortal, glorified body.  (I Corinthians 15).  The body the disciples saw and touched.  The body the angels saw ascend.  

I would suggest it's the same body Paul talks about in Colossians 2:9.  As I understand, Paul is talking post-cross, post-ascension, and in the PRESENT tense.

In Colossians 2:9, the Greek word, somatikos, is used for Jesus' present body.  Somatikos means physical, tangible body.

sOmatikOs
G4985
Adv
BODily

I found these questions from towertotruth.net, in response to the Jehovah's Witnesses;  who apparently believe Jesus is strictly a spirit.

They ask;  "If Jesus was resurrected as an invisible spirit,  as the Watchtower teaches, why did Jesus say he was going to raise his physical body from the dead (John 2:19-22)?
 
If Jesus, the man, ceased to exist at his death and was raised from the dead as Michael the Archangel, why did Michael deceive the apostles into believing that they were witnessing Jesus in a resurrected physical body (Luke 24:39)?
 
If Jesus is now living in heaven as an invisible spirit creature, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Paul write many years after the ascension of Christ that he is dwelling in heaven in a physical body (Colossians 2:9)? Note: The Greek word, somatikos, means physical, tangible body."
   

Colossians 2:9

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.  NLT

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, ESV

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, NAS

because all the essence of deity inhabits him in bodily form. ISV


The Christian Bible (as often is the case) says it best;

For it is in Him that all the fullness of God Himself is continually making a home in a bodily form

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think they're missing something. When He spoke to Nicodemus, He essentially said, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven. So the fullness of God was dwelling in Him in a flesh body, yet He said He was in heaven.

And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth.

Also, He had to raise His physical body from the grave, to prove death could not hold Him. If only the spirit raised, that would be no different than any of us. Once that was abundantly clear, IMO, THEN He could ascend in a glorified body where He remains as such.

When Elijah was caught up and his mantle fell, they saw him no more, but only saw Elisha with his mantle. In the same vein, He was caught up and they saw Him no more, but they saw His mantle, ie. His anointing on His disciples. And so it will be with us when the work is finished. My  :2c: Blessings....

[jabcat]

What a nice way to tell me you think I'm all wet  :LH:.  Thanks Card!  :HeartThrob:

OK, now, gettin' serious.  :ticked:   I agree, we are the body of Christ.  (I'll admit it's a bit more than I can grasp) but I personally believe that's in a symbolic, spiritual sense - which IMO, doesn't strip Jesus of His glorified physical body.  I believe this is another one of those instances where it's not either/or - it's both.  It does take it from a strictly natural sense to a deeper spiritual one.  But IMO, the spiritual application doesn't do away with other aspects of the truth - it takes it deeper.    ***For instance, what make this, "And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth." mean Jesus is, for lack of a better term, "physically invisible"?  

Just before the Colossians 2:9 verse, in Colossians 1:19, to me, it's obviously talking about Jesus;  "It is so because God was delighted to make a home in Him in all His fullness.."  Then it goes on to talk about His blood and Him reconciling us.  This isn't about us, it's about Him - and then yes, what He does in and through us.  But IMO, it's still about Him.  Always has been, always will be - until He hands all to the Father.

Now - bottom line, as we've talked about before.  He is Who He IS, and that's perfect.  Whether a strictly/exclusively Spirit, or a Spirit with a glorified body, in the end it probably won't matter, because again, All that He IS and All that He has planned is exactly as it should and needs to be.

Now, some more general statements;

I like to dig for nuggets sometimes.  Hopefully in this thread we won't get the quick hits of "I'm on this side", "I'm on that side".  Maybe we can really dig and be open to what's there, instead of [I know you don't do this Card] just taking some teacher's word for it - whether orthodox or a popular UR brother or sister - or what I've always thought.   :mblush:  Uhummm  LOL

Maybe I'm wrong, not interpreting it accurately, and maybe I will come with time, to see it differently.  But right at this moment, I just see it as both.  I know we've got 2 sides here in the forum, and I need to be open to God's truth - whatever that is on this topic.  How about anyone else?  Willing to really dig and think about it without knee-jerk reactions?   :bigGrin:

The body.  Spiritual, literal, or both?  

[jabcat]

I'm looking for any scriptures about "we will see Jesus", etc., then the Q is, what does that mean?  Literally, with spiritual eyes, in us as believers, etc., or evidence of all those things.  Anything come to mind with anyone?

[WhiteWings]

The first Adam was a man of flesh and blood. (with a dead spirit)
Jesus came as a man of flesh and blood too. He died. He got resurrected and showed Himself to several people. He (still) had a body of flesh and blood.
Jesus has been showing us things all His life. But one of His last signs is wrong?
If life after (our) resurrection is only spirit life then why didn't Jesus show Himself as spirit? Why did he even let Thomas touch his wounds (=body_)
He even said He'll drink wine in Heaven. Now I'm not saying spirits can't drink, but it at least points a little to a body. Scripture speaks about glorified bodies. Etc.

But why? To symbolize there are no physical bodies?
Don't think so.

[Quaesitor]

Well Thomas never touched the Lord, he fell on his knees well before that.

But I know what you mean. The disciples thought Jesus was a ghost when they saw him in Luke and the Lord told them to bring food to prove that He was no ghost.

I think the best picture of a glorified body is:

1Co 15:35-53  But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?  (36)  Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying.  (37)  And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest."  (38)  Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body."  (39)  Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes."  (40)  There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial,  (41)  another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory."  (42)  Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption.  (43)  It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power.  (44) It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.  (45)  If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."  (46)  But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."  (47)  The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."  (48)  Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."  (49)  And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."  (50) Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption."   (51)  Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,  (52)  in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

To my understanding, the glorified body is something totally new which we cannot understand by mere reasonning.
More than flesh and blood and more than spirit.


:bigGrin:

[Molly]

I believe that we will see Jesus himself in his resurrected body and that we shall be like him.  We will have both the glorified body and the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  I believe the glorified body is the one we were always meant to have, as Paul says--you plant this seed and whatever God has prepared grows out of the ground.  It's a farming metaphor.  The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed.  We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal,  and glorified body.

I think that now, in these fragile bodies, we carry as much of Christ as we are appointed to--we are able to manifest parts of his Spirit.  So now we are only his non resurrected 'body', each performing a different function, but then, when we are like him, the Christ will be a hologram, each piece complete, whole, and perfected in itself--body, soul, and Spirit.

Is Christ now just a Spirit?  When the heavens opened for Samuel, he saw the resurrected Christ standing at the right hand of God.  So there's the answer.

Also the idea of wine in old wineskins, this body we have now is the old wineskin, the new wine would burst these skins, hence we need a new body first.  God prepared the body for Jesus to walk in on this earth, so that he could carry the fulness in a non resurrected body.
You want scripture.  I'll work on it. :laughing7:

[Quaesitor]

It's a farming metaphor.  The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed.  We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal,  and glorified body

:thumbsup:

Exactly!

[Molly]

It's a farming metaphor.  The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed.  We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal,  and glorified body

:thumbsup:

Exactly!

Yes, and we have the seed in us now--Christ in you, the hope of glory!

[WhiteWings]

(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car  ==> New car (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SYtOgwnjmGI/AAAAAAABh1w/K1Mr7o5h9YE/s200/Lambo-Countach.jpg)

OR

(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car  ==> New car (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ho23wR5LXAVyAM:http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/6/7/7/7/4/t1115742-81-thumb-Image22.jpg?d=1167439581)

[Beloved Servant]

The Garments of Eden:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes28.htm

[Cardinal]

What a nice way to tell me you think I'm all wet  :LH:.  Thanks Card!  :HeartThrob:

OK, now, gettin' serious.  :ticked:   I agree, we are the body of Christ.  (I'll admit it's a bit more than I can grasp) but I personally believe that's in a symbolic, spiritual sense - which IMO, doesn't strip Jesus of His glorified physical body.  I believe this is another one of those instances where it's not either/or - it's both.  It does take it from a strictly natural sense to a deeper spiritual one.  But IMO, the spiritual application doesn't do away with other aspects of the truth - it takes it deeper.    ***For instance, what make this, "And I think He is still dwelling in heaven, while also being in a many-membered flesh body here on earth, or in earth, OUR earth." mean Jesus is, for lack of a better term, "physically invisible"?  

Just before the Colossians 2:9 verse, in Colossians 1:19, to me, it's obviously talking about Jesus;  "It is so because God was delighted to make a home in Him in all His fullness.."  Then it goes on to talk about His blood and Him reconciling us.  This isn't about us, it's about Him - and then yes, what He does in and through us.  But IMO, it's still about Him.  Always has been, always will be - until He hands all to the Father.

Now - bottom line, as we've talked about before.  He is Who He IS, and that's perfect.  Whether a strictly/exclusively Spirit, or a Spirit with a glorified body, in the end it probably won't matter, because again, All that He IS and All that He has planned is exactly as it should and needs to be.

Now, some more general statements;

I like to dig for nuggets sometimes.  Hopefully in this thread we won't get the quick hits of "I'm on this side", "I'm on that side".  Maybe we can really dig and be open to what's there, instead of [I know you don't do this Card] just taking some teacher's word for it - whether orthodox or a popular UR brother or sister - or what I've always thought.   :mblush:  Uhummm  LOL

Maybe I'm wrong, not interpreting it accurately, and maybe I will come with time, to see it differently.  But right at this moment, I just see it as both.  I know we've got 2 sides here in the forum, and I need to be open to God's truth - whatever that is on this topic.  How about anyone else?  Willing to really dig and think about it without knee-jerk reactions?   :bigGrin:

The body.  Spiritual, literal, or both?  

:cloud9: I had to read this twice and my own twice to see where your first comment here came in at.... :mblush:

I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm not saying spirit only, as in not even a glorified body, I'm saying the way I see it, He's not coming back in a FLESH AND BLOOD body again like the one He laid down, EXCEPT "ours". Clear as mud?  :dontknow: :laughing7:  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

I was reading this the other day and I wondered---Did Daniel see Jesus?


6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
--Daniel 10


14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

--Rev 1

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've always thought so. I think He was seeing Jesus AS His body, His body both in earth (brass = those still in the judgment of the flesh) and in heaven (voice of MANY). Blessings....

[Nathan]

Can't help but think of the fact that very few men in the flesh have seen Christ in his glorified state.  Daniel was one, Ezekiel I think was another, but the most predominant was Peter, James and John.  These bodies we're in are simply tents, they are temporary coverings in which our spirit dwells.  We're to take care of them but not to give honor to them. 

When I see people trying to push the idea that Jesus is going to return in the same body of flesh he died in, that's the first thing that strikes me, that we're wanting to honor the flesh.  I seriously doubt people do this on purpose, but at the same time, there are many hidden actions we do without conscious purpose that are just as vain.

Try this on for size . . .do you know why the Holy Spirit couldn't come until after Jesus left?  For me, it's because the spirit that poured out on all flesh in the upper room was the "same" spirit that was in the temporary body of Jesus.  Yes?

So . . .if people still insist that Jesus is returning in that same body, that would then mean that his spirit would have to once again leave our bodies in order to return to his.  I just don't see that happening . . AT ALL.

His body of flesh died, but when his spirit returned to it, he transformed the body into a glorified one . .one that people couldn't recognize.  One that defied the laws of nature.  But even with his glorified body, the spirit could not be poured out on all flesh until after the ascension.  Which again tells me that if he is going to manifest again in that same body, his spirit would once again leave our collective body so that it could once again manifest in his individual body and I don't see that happening either.

Doesn't Paul even say that Jesus is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty?  Why would we want to re-confine Jesus to one, individual body again when all along it's been his desire to have "us" be his body?

[thinktank]

Good post, the typical image that we have of Jesus, long hair, beard, white skin, is not even the real Jesus. The scriptures say that the jews cut their hair short and the apostle Paul said it's a shame for a man to have long hair.

I think Christians are in for a shock when we see him what he actually looks like. So it's a danger that the image we have of him become's a false idol that we have grown to love and when we see him as he is, we might be put off, so I think it's important to prepare ones heart of false expectations. In other words not to fall in love with this false image we have of him. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Beard and long hair are thanks to Constantine

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's very true TT......and the remarkable thing about the time I saw Him thru the veil of someone's flesh is......I couldn't tell you exactly what He looked like, though it lasted probably for 10 minutes, maybe longer.

It seems impossible, but the carnal mind CANNOT grasp and hang onto, even what should be the simplest thing to remember, when you are dealing with PURE SPIRIT, and when He doesn't want you to "remember". Blessings....

[Nathan]

Wasn't there a mention of the soldiers pulling out his beard at his crucifixion though?

[thinktank]

:cloud9: That's very true TT......and the remarkable thing about the time I saw Him thru the veil of someone's flesh is......I couldn't tell you exactly what He looked like, though it lasted probably for 10 minutes, maybe longer.

It seems impossible, but the carnal mind CANNOT grasp and hang onto, even what should be the simplest thing to remember, when you are dealing with PURE SPIRIT, and when He doesn't want you to "remember". Blessings....

You saw the lord  :mshock:  waw

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, I've seen Him twice, both times in the flesh of someone. One was painful to look at due to His condition in the person brought about by their actions, the other I mentioned here, I think I literally went into shock over it.

We always think about what would we do, what would we say, ect., when we see Him face to face.......well, I couldn't stop crying, patting this man's face, and tellling Him I loved Him. Since the man was someone I had only known for a week, imagine HIS shock, LOL...... :mblush:  Blessings....

[jabcat]

So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him?  Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him.  His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes.  Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him.  If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother?  We will have new bodies;  will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us?   :OhNo:

[jabcat]

(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car  ==> New car (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SYtOgwnjmGI/AAAAAAABh1w/K1Mr7o5h9YE/s200/Lambo-Countach.jpg)

OR

(http://www.jameshaugh.com/assets/images/history/old4_small.jpg)Old car  ==> New car (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ho23wR5LXAVyAM:http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/6/7/7/7/4/t1115742-81-thumb-Image22.jpg?d=1167439581)

:thumbsup:  I Cor. 15

[Molly]

So if He doesn't come back to earth in HIS glorified body, do you think we at some point go to Him?  Because IF (and I believe He does) exist in HIS OWN glorified body - and since you SAW Him Card - I believe at some point(s) we will see Him.  His glorified flesh with our (immortal) glorified eyes.  Because we (are and) will be His co-workers, His co-heirs, ruling and reigning WITH Him.  If our mortal is raised immortal (I Cor. 15) in a glorified body, why wouldn't we be able to see our elder Brother?  We will have new bodies;  will our elder Brother and Savior hide from us?   :OhNo:

On the one hand, Paul says we are looking in a dark mirror now, but then [the mirror will be clear and] we will be able to see him face to face.  I take that literally to mean we will look in a mirror and see Jesus [in ourselves].

On the other hand, I agree with you-- I also agree we will see him, our big brother, our Lord and our God--and know him even as we are known.

[jabcat]

I believe that we will see Jesus himself in his resurrected body and that we shall be like him.  We will have both the glorified body and the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  I believe the glorified body is the one we were always meant to have, as Paul says--you plant this seed and whatever God has prepared grows out of the ground.  It's a farming metaphor.  The cucumber seed is planted and up comes a cucumber--but you could never guess at the finished plant from the seed.  We will have Jesus' resurrected, immortal,  and glorified body.

I think that now, in these fragile bodies, we carry as much of Christ as we are appointed to--we are able to manifest parts of his Spirit.  So now we are only his non resurrected 'body', each performing a different function, but then, when we are like him, the Christ will be a hologram, each piece complete, whole, and perfected in itself--body, soul, and Spirit.

Is Christ now just a Spirit?  When the heavens opened for Samuel, he saw the resurrected Christ standing at the right hand of God.  So there's the answer.

Also the idea of wine in old wineskins, this body we have now is the old wineskin, the new wine would burst these skins, hence we need a new body first.  God prepared the body for Jesus to walk in on this earth, so that he could carry the fulness in a non resurrected body.
You want scripture.  I'll work on it. :laughing7:

:first:  I'm gonna re-read this.  Lots here Molly.