In Christ (and "Not All Are of the Faith" Thes. 3:2)

[CHB]

New thread, split from "Someone Help Me".

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"  2 Corinthians 13:5



CHB writes,   Hi Molly,

What do you think being "in Christ" means? This might warrant a thread of it's own I don't know?

CHB

[Molly]

Hi Molly,

What do you think being "in Christ" means? This might warrant a thread of it's own I don't know?

CHB

I think it means joining ourselves with him,--teleios--perfection.


thatG2443 we may presentG3936 everyG3956 manG444 perfectG5046 inG1722 ChristG5547 Jesus:G2424


"perfect" [in Christ Jesus]

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

[jabcat]

IMO, the scriptures are pretty clear that all are not saved now.  They will be, but one must believe on Jesus as Savior for this to occur ("no man comes to the Father but by Me"  Jn. 14:6).  Paul said not all are of the faith  (Thes. 3:2).  The Spirit and the bride are saying "come" (not all have come).  That's what the whole "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord" is about - the way has been made, the ecclesia/chosen will be saved in this life - the rest in the age(s) to come.  So to be "in Christ", IMO, means to be saved, to be a believer, and to therefor have the process of sanctification set in motion through the Holy Spirit's work in one's life (He will complete that which He has begun Phil 1:6). 

There was a thread one time started by an ET'er, who said some things that were not scriptural.  However, his thread title had a very good message I think - "Are you a Christian or Just a Universalist?"     I think there are a lot of people that talk about God and universalism, etc., and though it's not our place to judge (that's ultimately between them and God) there will be evidence in a believer's life of the new spiritual birth - "by their fruit you will know them"(Mt. 5:17)

We are to love everyone, but teachings of discernment and warnings to not be led astray is also part of the same scriptures that say "love".   Again,  Paul said "deliver us from evil and wicked men, for the faith is not of all"  2 Thes. 3:2.

[CHB]

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This sounds like Paul is saying "not everyone is perfect now or in Christ". I guess you could look at it as saying "not everyone is perfect that is in Christ", or "everyone that is in Christ is not perfect"?

CHB

[CHB]

IMO, the scriptures are pretty clear that all are not saved now.  They will be, but one must believe on Jesus as Savior for this to occur ("no man comes to the Father but by Me"  Jn. 14:6).  Paul said not all are of the faith  (Thes. 3:2).  The Spirit and the bride are saying "come" (not all have come).  That's what the whole "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord" is about - the way has been made, the ecclesia/chosen will be saved in this life - the rest in the age(s) to come.  So to be "in Christ", IMO, means to be saved, to be a believer, and to therefor have the process of sanctification set in motion through the Holy Spirit's work in one's life (He will complete that which He has begun Phil 1:6). 

Again,  "for the faith is not of all"  2 Thes. 3:2.

Hi jabcat,

This is how I saw it as well. I think it is a process that we all have to go through and some haven't gotten to that point yet. Just my opinion. Of course I may be wrong.

CHB

[jabcat]

Another scripture that came to mind, and something I've personally struggled with - being a person of much doubt, struggles with sin, and sometimes "over-thinking" things. 

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"  2 Corinthians 13:5

Some of the questions might be, "have I called on Him for salvation", "have I believed on Him as my Savior", "is there fruit/evidence that He's working in my life;  am I having things being made new in me"?

[micah7:9]

There you go Jab you have been reading my mail! "Another scripture that came to mind, and something I've personally struggled with ".... struggles with sin, and sometimes "over-thinking" things."(Jabcat) 

Now ad to that "...struggles with sin, and sometimes "over-thinking" things."  being a recovering alcoholic, who slips,
if it was not the knowledge that He forgives and knows my frame... For, he, knoweth how we are formed, He is mindful that, dust, we are.( Psa 103:14) 
He does not shun me when I misss the mark and lets me know that where ever or what ever state I am in....
"Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence?" (Psa 139:7)
"If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there."(Psa 139:8)

This is what I know..."The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness. (Mic 7:9)

I remain overwhelemed by His Love.
God is to us a refuge and strength, A help in adversities found most surely.
Psa 46:2  Therefore we fear not in the changing of earth, And in the slipping of mountains Into the heart of the seas.
Psa 46:3  Roar--troubled are its waters, Mountains they shake in its pride. Selah.
Psa 46:4  A river--its rivulets rejoice the city of God, Thy holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High.
Psa 46:5  God is in her midst--she is not moved, God doth help her at the turn of the morn! (Psa.46:1-5

[jabcat]

Amen Micah.  His grace is sufficient.  He is the Author and Finisher, and He will complete the [HIS] good work in you!  Great joy and blessings!

[CHB]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.  - Ephesians 1:3-6

This verse seems to say that SOME were chosen to be IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.

Also what do these verses mean? Are they saying there are those who are not in Christ, or do they mean something else?

(Col. 4:5) Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
(1Thess. 4:12) That ye may walk honestly toward them that are WITHOUT, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

CHB

[jabcat]

I think it's in my sig, C, re: "the ecclesia is predestined, the rest are destined".  IMO, predestination is all over the scriptures - the elect.  Nothing to brag about, it's just God's will, our "role" or lot.  (All will be blessed and made new).

I never believed in predestination before coming to believe in UR, for one reason, because I couldn't reconcile it with people going to an eternal hell forever "through no 'choice' of their own" - you know, all that stuff :) .  Now I believe I see that the ecclesia are called out now (saved in this life), set aside and "honed" for a purpose, and will be used to help bring all the rest in - when all is summed up in Christ and God becomes All in ALL. 

The Noble Berean (available to read online or order at www.hearingthetruthofgod.com) by Thomas J. Kissinger addresses this well, IMO. 

Blessings.

[Molly]

(Col. 4:5) Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
(1Thess. 4:12) That ye may walk honestly toward them that are WITHOUT, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

10We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

--Heb 13

[CHB]

I think it's in my sig, C, re: "the ecclesia is predestined, the rest are destined".  IMO, predestination is all over the scriptures - the elect.  Nothing to brag about, it's just God's will, our "role" or lot.  (All will be blessed and made new).

I never believed in predestination before coming to believe in UR, for one reason, because I couldn't reconcile it with people going to an eternal hell forever "through no 'choice' of their own" - you know, all that stuff :) .  Now I believe I see that the ecclesia are called out now (saved in this life), set aside and "honed" for a purpose, and will be used to help bring all the rest in - when all is summed up in Christ and God becomes All in ALL. 

The Noble Berean (available to read online or order at www.hearingthetruthofgod.com) by Thomas J. Kissinger addresses this well, IMO. 

Blessings.

jabcat, this is the way I understand this as well. If all are in Christ now what would be the need for the lake of fire, Judgment, knees bowing, or tongues confessing?

CHB

[Molly]

Exodus 33:7
And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.



9And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

10And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

--Ex 33

[WhiteWings]

I think it's in my sig, C, re: "the ecclesia is predestined, the rest are destined".  IMO, predestination is all over the scriptures - the elect.  Nothing to brag about, it's just God's will, our "role" or lot.  (All will be blessed and made new).

I never believed in predestination before coming to believe in UR, for one reason, because I couldn't reconcile it with people going to an eternal hell forever "through no 'choice' of their own" - you know, all that stuff :) .  Now I believe I see that the ecclesia are called out now (saved in this life), set aside and "honed" for a purpose, and will be used to help bring all the rest in - when all is summed up in Christ and God becomes All in ALL. 

The Noble Berean (available to read online or order at www.hearingthetruthofgod.com) by Thomas J. Kissinger addresses this well, IMO. 

Blessings.

jabcat, this is the way I understand this as well. If all are in Christ now what would be the need for the lake of fire, Judgment, knees bowing, or tongues confessing?

CHB

Depends how you view being "in Christ". If you mean predestined to be resurrected and saved then I agree.
But imo it doesn't mean there are no concequences. The NT is full of warnings against sin. There is judgement, correction, people outside New Jerusalem and as you said LoF. Those verses are there for a reason.

[Molly]

I am told not to lie.  If I am in Christ, I cannot lie.  If I do lie, then there is a gap created.  I am no longer in Christ until I repent and make amends.


"If you love me, you will obey my commandments

--John 14:15

[WhiteWings]

That's clear then; not everyone is in Christ.

[Molly]

That's clear then; not everyone is in Christ.

No.  It would be a different world when that happens.

[Quaesitor]

I believe one has to live in the not yet. It's all in hope and when I speak of all being in Christ I speak in a future-being-already-accomplished way.

Anyway, I agree with you guys that some are the chosen but chosen for what? To be saved?
I believe we are chosen to HERALD salvation/healig/reconciliation.

We are the salt of the earth, when Jesus said that if salt loose it's taste, with what will we give it back he could have said also after that if everyone is salt what is it there for?

The severity is set against the tasteless salt.

I am told not to lie.  If I am in Christ, I cannot lie.  If I do lie, then there is a gap created.  I am no longer in Christ until I repent and make amends.


"If you love me, you will obey my commandments

--John 14:15

I believe it is your own condamnation on yourself that create the gap, not Christ. When you lie, you realize that you didn't act in love and make amends but the "gap" idea is created by yourself.

[WhiteWings]

I believe one has to live in the not yet. It's all in hope and when I speak of all being in Christ I speak in a future-being-already-accomplished way.

Anyway, I agree with you guys that some are the chosen but chosen for what? To be saved?

No to be part of a certain harvest.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/harvests_god_5946.msg61426.html#msg61426

[Molly]

I believe it is your own condamnation on yourself that create the gap, not Christ. When you lie, you realize that you didn't act in love and make amends but the "gap" idea is created by yourself.

well, yes, we talked about that on another thread, but
it is because I can perceive the difference, the gap,  as opposed to a
pathological liar who cannot perceive the difference--between
himself and Christ.  There is a tearing away of the heart, yes?
Can you deny that?  It's a physical sensation.  We see that with
Peter when he realizes he has denied Christ.

Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

[jabcat]

C, split this off and started a new thread with your post as you suggested.   :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Hi jabcat, I think we pretty much exhausted this discussion though.

I don't know how you all see this and feel free to voice your opinion if I am wrong but the way I understand this being "in Christ" is, not all are giving the knowledge of salvation.

Not everyone was predestined to understand at this time. Like when Jesus said "it is given to you {speaking to his disciples} to understand but to the rest it isn't given to understand. Not the exact words.  This must still apply today because not many understand about the salvation of all.

The way I understand this being "in Christ" is, those who are chosen to understand and have died to self, are in Christ, or Christ in them. These are those who Paul said are "dead in Christ". The rest, those who are spiritually dead, are dead in Adam, so to speak. Those, who God has given His Holy Spirit to are sitting in Christ on the right hand side of the Father in heavenly places.

I don't see that everyone is in Christ at this time. this will happen when all is in all, I don't think we are at this point yet.

CHB

[shawn]

I think it's in my sig, C, re: "the ecclesia is predestined, the rest are destined".  IMO, predestination is all over the scriptures - the elect.  Nothing to brag about, it's just God's will, our "role" or lot.  (All will be blessed and made new).

I never believed in predestination before coming to believe in UR, for one reason, because I couldn't reconcile it with people going to an eternal hell forever "through no 'choice' of their own" - you know, all that stuff :) .  Now I believe I see that the ecclesia are called out now (saved in this life), set aside and "honed" for a purpose, and will be used to help bring all the rest in - when all is summed up in Christ and God becomes All in ALL. 

The Noble Berean (available to read online or order at www.hearingthetruthofgod.com) by Thomas J. Kissinger addresses this well, IMO. 

Blessings.

jabcat, this is the way I understand this as well. If all are in Christ now what would be the need for the lake of fire, Judgment, knees bowing, or tongues confessing?

CHB

I agree, it's why I have a problem with taking the stance that all are saved now.  I do not believe this to be truth.

[shawn]

I believe it is your own condamnation on yourself that create the gap, not Christ. When you lie, you realize that you didn't act in love and make amends but the "gap" idea is created by yourself.

well, yes, we talked about that on another thread, but
it is because I can perceive the difference, the gap,  as opposed to a
pathological liar who cannot perceive the difference--between
himself and Christ.  There is a tearing away of the heart, yes?
Can you deny that?  It's a physical sensation.  We see that with
Peter when he realizes he has denied Christ.

Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

I would agree.  I have experienced this myself so many times in my life.  There is a physical, mental and spiritual consequence when we sin.  We sense this seperation and it can tear into us.  It's tangible.  But, do I believe God creates this distance?  No.  I don't believe God turns his back on us or shuns us.  I don't believe he pushes us back and says ehh no relationship with you for awhile.  I do believe this distance is created when our spirit senses that our living is not congruent with Christ's living.

I think most of us would agree with this.  Where there seems to be some different views is how do we approach this issue?  Some would say that because we know we are son's of God, saved by grace by no power of our own we shouldn't focus on sin.  I would agree.  Being too sin conscious can hinder the faith as much as anything.  It creates a working of the flesh for things that are spiritual.  Then there is the camp that will state, well we are indeed called to lives of holiness, righteousness and have been given an instruction book on how we are supposed to conduct ourselves.  Do I believe this as well?  Yep.

So, how do I reconcil the two?  I don't have all the answers, and in my life I see sometimes myself living in one more than the other.  But, I believe there is a perfect balance and that rests directly on the knowledge of how God sees us.  Unfortunately, many of us still look at ourselves with old filters and old eyes.  We don't speak very well of ourselves in our own head.  When we sin we feel the need to beat ourselves...purge ourselves of sin by all sorts of unhealthy mechanisms.  This is about as unhealthy of a thing you can do spiritually.  We need to understand when we fall, when we sin that we are indeed still sons of God.  We should strive to be like our Savior, but when we fall (and we do) we must understand we are seen by God very differently than we see ourselves.  It's a time to push closer to Christ, not double our efforts to constrain the flesh.  It's a time to focus on the sacrifice of Christ, not a time to focus on us and our unworthiness.  We live in this knowing, that God is removing from us all defects of character, and live in joy within this process.

We need to start speaking to ourselves in a Biblical manner.  Many of us don't treat ourselves very well.