I was encouraged by this pastor's response, what do you think?

[Doxiemum]

Hi, I've been searching for a church that would not look upon me as a heretic if they came to learn I believe in ur.  I decided that I no longer wanted to attend church where eternal separation was preached from the pulpit, even if it was only mentioned occasionally.  I really don't want to provide monetary support any longer towards that type of message being sent forth into the world.  So I've been looking around, but was discouraged because the few churches that seemed more generous in terms of the final outcome of mankind didn't seem to uphold scripture in certain ways (for example, explaining away miracles in the scriptures as not being actually true, or not placing emphasis upon the atonement as being the means by which all must come to God),  but I recently sent an email to the rector of an Anglican Church to which I received a reply.  I would be interested in knowing your thoughts.  It seemed to me that his reply was very thoughtful and gracious, and that I certainly would be welcome at that church with my ur views.  Even though he may not completely embrace such views himself, he seems very sympathetic.

My email:
Hi, I am looking for a new church home, and am wondering if your church accepts people who are Christians who believe in the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the authority of scripture, and who are believers in the ultimate reconciliation of all, that is, in the belief that God shall ultimately save all of humanity by bringing all to faith in His Son. I know that this viewpoint is not acceptable in certain churches, and I am looking for one in which it is considered an acceptable belief for a Christian to have. Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this question.

The rector's reply:
God bless you in your search. We welcome all Christians who want to draw near to God. We hold to the authority of Scripture and the Tradition of the Church.

God is always merciful. In our liturgy each time, after acknowledging our unworthiness, we pray, "But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy."

In the Penitential Office of Ash Wednesday, we pray to our merciful Father "who wouldest not (that is, does not) desire the death of a sinner."

The Church teaches that Jesus is reconciling all of creation to Himself. Origen went so far as to believe that even fallen angels will eventually be redeemed.

The Church has never declared universal salvation as Dogma, but it hasn't condemned it, either. I respect the work of Gerald O'Collins, a Roman Catholic theologian (and priest, I think), in his Salvation For All. But even O'Collins says before he begins, that he's only looking at one half of the equation, and that his book would be twice as long if he examined the other half!

And if we are to take Scripture seriously, we have to deal with passages like Matthew 25, where the Son of man in His Glory separates the sheep from the goats.

I think you will find St Francis a thoughtful, worshipful place of God's presence, where sinners like myself are being redeemed by grace.

Again, may God bless you in your search.

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: ..he sounds not too bad.. pointed out some (to his mind, possible) u.r. verses..

On Matthew 25 the sheep and goats.. if only I could tell him.. It's like the gathering of the wheat and tares.. wheat is gathered into His barn (angels gather His elect) and the tares are gathered to Armageddon, the last war (where - by man's split atom/God's judgment, i.e. results and consequences of our own ways which He brings upon us - will be burned "in the day of the great slaughter when the towers fall" - Is 30. And will be part of the 2nd resurrection who rise "still in their sins" for a time)..
    :Peace2: God bless!

Your email was a great idea! It's very hard to find a body of believers, or even a believer, who speaks and teaches only truth.. most (of us) have something at least a bit wrong somewhere... But I agree the hell gospel is intolerable!

[Dandelion]

I know lots of clergy, from many different denominations. Many would welcome us, which would not always have been the case.

I do have a feeling though, if we started being vocal about our beliefs in Bible Studies, Coffee Hour, and so on, they might decide to speak to us, and very possibly, at some point, tell us where our boundaries are.

Let me say.....I am a church goer. I go to lots of different churches, as well as have a 'home' church. Many of the Pastors I see in these churches are friends or close acquaintances of mine. But, I know, that UR ideas would not be well taken in them, though I myself would not necessarily be banned from attending Church there.

Honestly, the whole issue does not ruffle my feathers much at all. They have been taught this, as were many of us. That is where they are at now. I can deal with that very easily. I realize the great majority of the Christian World is there, and that is our reality at this moment. But, it is harder on a personal level, because so many of my friends, who are closer than family members, do not or would not accept my beliefs. I know that if some of my closest friends knew, it would most likely cause damage, perhaps irreconcilable damage.I already have a few that know, and one keeps messaging me, sending Bible quotes to try to counter my beliefs, and so on. That is much more difficult, for me especially, because of certain factors from my past.

But, I expect, that sometime, perhaps in the near future, I will decide to declare my beliefs. And, that will possibly be a difficult road for me, in some ways. But, I have traveled those type of roads before. And, if God is for us, who could be against us? I have become rather good at dodging arrows, and I understand that at any moment, as a Christian, I might have to let go of whatever it is I am holding onto.  I believe the Holy Spirit will give me the courage, when it is needed. For now, I would like to learn more and feel more comfortable in being able to answer questions and 'attacks' regarding UR, so I am prepared if and when the arrows come. But, then, I must also remind myself that the Holy Spirit will give me the words to say.

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it....  Matthew 16:24

If you like to go to church and are happy with this one, I would encourage you to go and just take one step at a time. We always have to walk into the darkness, trusting in God, and hopefully, bring the Light with us. Perhaps one day, all the Christian Churches will embrace UR.

D. 

[Ross]

I know lots of clergy, from many different denominations. Many would welcome us, which would not always have been the case.

I do have a feeling though, if we started being vocal about our beliefs in Bible Studies, Coffee Hour, and so on, they might decide to speak to us, and very possibly, at some point, tell us where our boundaries are.

Let me say.....I am a church goer. I go to lots of different churches, as well as have a 'home' church. Many of the Pastors I see in these churches are friends or close acquaintances of mine. But, I know, that UR ideas would not be well taken in them, though I myself would not necessarily be banned from attending Church there.

Honestly, the whole issue does not ruffle my feathers much at all. They have been taught this, as were many of us. That is where they are at now. I can deal with that very easily. I realize the great majority of the Christian World is there, and that is our reality at this moment. But, it is harder on a personal level, because so many of my friends, who are closer than family members, do not or would not accept my beliefs. I know that if some of my closest friends knew, it would most likely cause damage, perhaps irreconcilable damage.I already have a few that know, and one keeps messaging me, sending Bible quotes to try to counter my beliefs, and so on. That is much more difficult, for me especially, because of certain factors from my past.

But, I expect, that sometime, perhaps in the near future, I will decide to declare my beliefs. And, that will possibly be a difficult road for me, in some ways. But, I have traveled those type of roads before. And, if God is for us, who could be against us? I have become rather good at dodging arrows, and I understand that at any moment, as a Christian, I might have to let go of whatever it is I am holding onto.  I believe the Holy Spirit will give me the courage, when it is needed. For now, I would like to learn more and feel more comfortable in being able to answer questions and 'attacks' regarding UR, so I am prepared if and when the arrows come. But, then, I must also remind myself that the Holy Spirit will give me the words to say.

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.…  Matthew 16:24

If you like to go to church and are happy with this one, I would encourage you to go and just take one step at a time. We always have to walk into the darkness, trusting in God, and hopefully, bring the Light with us. Perhaps one day, all the Christian Churches will embrace UR.

D. 

Right on!!
I was cast out of my church because of speaking doctrines which they did not agree with.
Interestingly, for me, there is a new pastor there; he enquired why I wasn't going anymore; so the previous paster and elders must not have recorded my expulsion.
Also interesting for me that none of the previous members that I had associated with for 20 years even asked how I was going.

In Galations Paul points out his change of habits and beliefs; he relied on no man.
Gal 1;15-19 " But when God,
                    Who had set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace,
                    was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the gentiles,
                    I did not consult with flesh and blood,
                    nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were Apostles before me,
                    but I went away to Arabia and returned again to Damascus.
                    Then after three years I went to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days.
                   But I did not see any of the others apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

Paul makes another comment on the reliance of others.
1 Thess 4;9 " Now with regard to brotherly love you have no need for us to write to you,
                    for you ourselves have been taught by God how to love one another."

1 Thess 4;11,12 " Make it your aim to lead a quiet life, to attend to your own affairs, and to work with your own hands
                          as we commanded you. In this way you will live a proper life before outsiders and be dependent on nobody."

[Doxiemum]

Thank you, Marie Glen, Dandelion, and Ross for your thoughtful answers! I have been inching forward one small step at a time into voicing my ur beliefs to others.  I've mentioned them to my immediate family and one friend whose mother is of the same opinion.  One thing that is holding me back is feeling that I do not yet quite have as strong of a grasp as I need to in order to respond to challenges about problematic verses, and feel that I need to "study to show myself approved" and develop more solid responses, such as the one you gave, Marie, to the sheep and goats verse.  I do feel as you mentioned, Dandelion, that a certain important relationship might end if I were to become more vocal, or at least it would involve the other person suddenly seeing me as not being really a Christian and trying to convert me, which makes me hesitant.  I think I need to get to where I don't really care about how others react to me, as you indicated in your verses, Ross, and not care about what flesh and blood think, but I have to admit I'm not there yet. Sad that your church didn't inquire into how you were doing after having gone there for twenty years.  I had a similar experience after leaving a church after seventeen years, though I didn't leave for ur reasons.  I think I probably will visit this new church and see what it's like.  I'm feeling a bit torn about attending church now after listening to Martin Zender, who is a ur believer who is quite opposed to organized religion, he feels that churches are teaching "doctrines of demons" (eternal torment is certainly a demonic teaching!) and we should stay away from that.  I am torn between wondering if he might be right about that or if he's throwing the baby out with the bath water.  I've gone to church since my preschool years and would find it very difficult to just stop going entirely.

[Shev]

It is certainly a difficult subject, Doxiemum. It is the kind of situation where you must be convinced in your own mind step by step. There is some validity to wanting to study to show yourself approved and feel more confident about how you express yourself, also.

For my part, when I shared about UR years ago, I lost most of my friends over it. At that point I had never really seen it as too big a deal, nor was I very adept at explaining UR, but when I lost so much over it, I realized I wanted to be able to explain it in my own words, so I started working on writing about it. When it comes to sharing since, I tend to try and be sensitive to the Spirit. Nevertheless, I have shared at times I now feel I perhaps was not supposed to, and other times perhaps not shared when I should have. I don't see it as a blanket mandate, personally, but a seed to be planted in due season.

As for organized religion, I have not gone to church in many years. Again, something to be convinced in one's mind about. For my part, one of the strongest reasons is that I do not want to hear God and His Christ defamed from the pulpit any more than I would want to sit and hear lies about my wife, mother, father, siblings, relatives, or friends. Hopefully my overarching reason is that I am being led by the Spirit, but my conscious mind also revolts against hearing false things attributed to the divine Father and His Son.

I hope you are able to navigate these things by the Spirit and gain confidence in your grasp on UR, my friend!  :dsunny:

[Ross]

Hi ;
I have read Zender stuff as well. He does make some interesting observations about other churches and their incorrect teachings.
However I do not agree with all of his line of thought or behaviour. The baby and the bath water is an appropriate line of thought.
Jesus told the Pharisees;- " Let Him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Paul says in Philippians 1;18 " What then? Only that in every way, whether in pre-tense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and I rejoice
                                             in that."

I used to feel that spark against the beliefs of the churches. However I seem to be reminded not to judge others, because I used to agree with them, was one of them. Now I actually have compassion and realize that they too will learn at their own moment. All of this has taken many years for the correction of my beliefs.
Love the old saying,
              "Slow and steady wins the race."
Our growth is an on-going process. Just like we used to be kids and did different things, as we grow we change bit by bit.
Key difference for me is knowing the one in control now is way better than my own efforts. His mercy is indescribable. His patience awesome. His love beyond the ability of the flesh to comprehend. The security of our position in Christ cannot be over-ridden by anything. Romans 8;31,32 is that insurance policy.

Changing our habits does indeed take time. Press on, you will continue to grow on the path of righteousness- Christ- as He leads you.

[eaglesway]

When YHWH called Israel to "Come out of her and be a clean and separate people"- He did not call them to stand outside the gates of Babylon and throw stones. He called them to return to Mt Zion and rebuild the temple.

God is patient and understanding, but He is not pleased when we act as tho leaving one place is the same as rebuilding another place- a House of Prayer for all people, a tabernacle of refuge and restoration.

It took Him about ten years to get that old arrogant stone thrower out of me, and convince me to start seeking the materials for building.

Wisdom, humility, speaking the truth in love, edifying others instead of building up myself. I would encourage everyone to let that spirit go, and run to the wedding feast. The Bride has made herself ready, she is coming down out of the heavens, adorned in white linen.

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

[marie glen]

My biggest strategy for passing along the full "good news" message is to simply quote the verses when the opportunity presents itself. This occurs more often on the internet than in my real life.. I don't get to hang out with Christians a whole lot.. but my long term friends and acquaintances, hubby and I have had for 40 years, more and more of them have become believers.. Not all are churched and the ones not churched have no problem with UR.

This post is a very good list of some of the very clear verses - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

It helps to be well acquainted with them.. As we continue to read and study.. more and more UR verses clear and implied come to light.. It's so surprising they are so easily missed! I guess that's why such things are called "strongholds" of the enemy, and of untruth.. they become very strongly held.. It's kind of weird... the 'hell' doctrine, top of the "doctrines of demons" (imo) and man's theory of evolution are the strongest untruths adhered to..

If you enjoy church I would say don't give it up! I think a body of believers who don't go for the "burn or turn" type preaching and teaching (shudder) but also do not conform to the world's morality of anything goes.. i.e. still a bible based group, should be able to be found.. perhaps this will change as time goes on though :faint: .. idk :dontknow: