.
This is peeking thru the lattice, and it has to do with "entering" the Kingdom of God.
Since there is NO darkness there, the "body" cannot be dark.........there is where they
will NOT say, "I am sick!"
Paul prayed that our whole spirit, soul, and "body" be presented......
The scriptures say "Present your "Bodies" .......which is your reasonable service.
Notice "entering in" having your "bodies" washed with PURE WATER.
Notice, we "wait" for the "redemption" of the "body."
The word "redemption" is connected to the word "REDEEMED, and REDEEMER."
Right?
Ok, our REDEEMER is "strong."
There is a word in Ezera or Nehemiah one that speaks "other lords beside Thee
have had dominion over our "bodies."
Fear not them that can kill the body, but fear HIM.
Is this a temporal "authority" given ???
One place it says they "held them fast and refused to let them go."
I was talking the other day on the Messianic Jew board and they really study out
the original word meanings. I have always quoted what it says about Hebrews 9:1
concerning what is behind the first veil, and how it is connected to the "first covenant." A girl kept saying the word "covenant" was not there. Ok, I checked
even the Jewish Bible and it "was" there. But she knew the GREEK which was
what that verse was originally written in and so I noticed it was "italized" in mine.
Anyway, this man came on and said what it meant was "outer court."
I could receive that, it changed not what I believed, but added to my understanding.
and
gave me another question...............so I asked, "does that mean the "body." and
he said "yes." The first tabernacle.
I got to thinking......about how something was allowed to be "trampled" for a season
in the book of revelation, and I wondered if this was connected to the "above"
that I spoke on. .
what do you think?
It seems there is a "divine health" to be given in the prize of the Kingdom of God.......not a healing, which is in the fivefold.
What do you think?
Romans 8 speaks of us waiting on the "redemption" of our "bodies" and speaks
"what a man seeth" why doth he yet hope for it.
I am not talking about going to heaven so to speak like it is taught, but am I seeing
more on the body to occur right here?
Jesus plainly said, "Which is easier? to say thy sins be forgiven, " "or to say,
TAKE UP THY BED and WALK." And the man IMMEDIATELY got up and
walked.
Isa. 59 speaks of "this is my covenant when I take away their sins" and Romans
11 uses the "same" wording??? Then Jesus plainly said, John the Baptist was
the greatest up to that point, but one in the KINGDOM of GOD was even greater.
There are many more scriptures and I think I am seeing a layer about the "body"
that I've not heretofore seen.........it is not about "leaving" "here" ........it is about
putting on "incorruption" ......."divine health."
Your thoughts ???
:cloud9: I've seen the incorruptible body for years, but no one much talks about it anymore. Probably because the ones who saw it have either died, or are aging. I think it's a whole lot easier to believe for this one when you're younger, and your body is not reminding you on a daily basis that you're getting old. :mshock:
BUT; One of the ways He made it life in me was in that He said to the Israelites, that if they obeyed His statutes and His commandments, that He would put none of the curses of the Egyptians on them. Death of the firstborn = death of the physical body. We are first born of the flesh, then of the Spirit. My :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal, I knew you'd see some of it. I will write you
an email when I can.
RLS,
Haven't got a direct answer to that question, maybe this though: that not all
shall sleep ( see the grave) but will be CHANGED (translated, tansformed) in the twinkling of an eye.
Personaly as close to a parable as I can bring to say: I do not believe a natural seed ever sees death after it is placed in the ground (buried) it is changed into a plant after its kind, after the plant rises up from the ground one would be hard pressed to
dig up the ground and find the seed still there, the seed died but never saw death.
There is a verse of scripture that says:
In dying they shall never see death, so it appears to me in my POV that dying and death are two differant things, that is why I have always said life doesn't end at the grave, only the body of dust dies which I believe is going to be changed or transformed to a ressurection spiritual body made of light that is in the law of the spirit that can possibly manifest in a natural body for a temporary period and ONLY when for some purpose of God, not of my own, but is no longer limited by natural law and can cast no shadow. When we are no longer in measured time there will be no differance from one hour or a thousand years, so the above is my POV on the ressurection body and or transfigured/transformed body, that body is within us now germinating like the plant in the above is within the seed below.
Jesus also answered questions about the body so we get some glimpses from scripture: Niether taken nor given in marriage, be as the angels of Heaven, niether male or female, niether Jew or Gentile, in Christ we are complete and no longer divided to see only in part but face to face even though we shall be personaly distinct one from another. Now the Lord has certainly made it life in me,he has put fire and life into my spirit in places that were dorment in my younger years, yes my body is aging and every year I become a little slower than the year before, yet I do not feel old or hopeless in spirit because I have been compensated in my age with grace and life in areas of the spirit that were laying dorment in my younger years.
These are Just my personal POV and if it helped you on this topic then I say good, if not then I have still given what I have received for now.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Quote from: fire walker on May 23, 2009, 07:50:20 AM
..., yes my body is aging and every year I become a little slower than the year before, yet I do not feel old or hopeless in spirit because I have been compensated in my age with grace and life in areas of the spirit that were laying dorment in my younger years.
That was great! I completely understand.
Thanks for sharing that fire walker.
Makes perfect sense.
I also liked your seed analogy.
Good stuff, friend!!
:cloud9: I like that, too, Firewalker :thumbsup: Blessings....
By RLV,
I am reminded that Jesus was transfigured on the mount BEFORE His death and resurrection.
:cloud9: Amen Beloved Servant, that He was...... :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
:coffee2:Well!!! I see that I have "already" shared "some" of that
that I have in my files re the "body."
Here's some more: This is not concrete, but in the studying stage.
Please feel free to critique.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to ask you a question, does the OUTER
tabernacle" have to do with the "body"?
you think?
See? there's another layer........!!! the worldy sanctuary.
People see that as a natural building........but perhaps
the outer tabernacle tells us it is the body???
The outer tabernacle is that which is trampled down
is it not? If this is what it means, I can see a lot......
Fear not them that can kill the "body" and after that can
do NO MORE....but fear HIM...etc. etc.
etc.
And Jesus builds the TRUE Tabernacle, that is surely
not the outer .......but in Hebrews, isn't that speaking
of the NEW BODY which the Lord pitched, and not man.
People are "in bondage" when man rules.....but they
rejoice when the Lord does. Man is under tutors and
governors til the time appointed of the Father to bring
them out and place them "under a HIGHER Authority."
The Authority that is a wall of fire, invisible protection
built by the Spirit, .......but no man takes this honor
to himself, it takes the Spirit to say so.
Things do progress.......we can see that from all the
authorities listed in lst Cor 11.
This topic brought about discussion of the NEW body,
the "heavenly" eternal house reserved for us.
but that is NOT what I was originally referring to.
Perhaps it might be best described as the
"quickened body" as maybe that best decribes
what I was referring to.
If that same spirit that raised up Christ Jesus "dwell" in
you, it shall QUICKEN your MORTAL body.
A mortal body
is not the heavenly new body, but it "has" been quickened
by the Spirit that inhabits it.
A "mortal body" has NOT put on immortality, or else
it would be an immortal body, which I think the "heavenly
NEW body is" ......not the NEW MAN, but the NEW body
for the NEW Man. This gets hairy! ha
But the quickened mortal body ........is probably more
describing what I am or was talking about in the first
article here.
Now, that cannot take place unless as some of you wrote
the "consciousness" is quickened first! So the
consciousness is being "changed" from serving dead
works to serve the LIVING God, and to come to perfection
if God wills. And this we will do, if God permits.
So the "change" of "consciousness" brings us to a
"consciousness" void of what the "consciousness of
sins" brought or brings us to, and it is HIS Consciousness
as it is written: "no more consciousness of sins." The
Law does not do this, the gift of God does.
And as that happens, it "affects" the BODY. One person
above said it this way:
I believe we, our true bodies the hidden, inner one will
manifest healing in the outer one whenever we can accept,
become one with healing. The inner one IS and always
has been in line with the "consciousness" of God, and it
is the MORTAL body that is quickened, not the NEW Body
the NEW ONE needs no quickening, it is "reserved" and
already prepared.
But our "mortal bodies" need quickening .......
to be PRESERVED.......sustained........til
So it is the indwelling spirit that quickens even the body
not just the consciousness.
I hope I have made that a little plainer. Anyway, what
I see is maybe NOT healing but the body being changed
while it is being quickened ......we shall not all sleep,
but we shall be changed.
To NOT sleep, is to "awake." Not talking of what body
we shall have in the eternal heavens, it needs no
quickening, it is reserved already in a perfect state.
But the "mortal body" needs quickening for the Spirit
to cause it to be "wholly" preserved. And I pray God
that your "whole" body, soul, and Spirit, be Preserved
to that day, .........seems to be a time of the Awakened
Quickened bodies, but Eternal Bodies, are when time
is no more.
Do you not believe that God can make a Quickened Body
to go with that Consiousness of God? We have somewhat
of a Consciousness of God now, do we not also have
somewhat of a Quickened Body? Surley so, for Psa. 91 says
"I will satisfy Him with looooooooooooong life, because
he has known my name.
Perhaps this is part of the "covenant" PROMISED to Abraham
and when God fulfilled it, it "included" a quickened body
for the long life. So then when it says, "I pray that your "whole"
body, soul, and spirit be preserved ........no wonder it also says
"Faithful is He that has called you, and HE will do it."
It has nothing to do with Abraham's words, but it was a Gift from
God to him.
So .......the two go together! His Consciousness and the "quickened
body!"
The Revelation of His
Consiousness affects the mortal body. It is quickened
by the Revelation as it comes. No matter what. Nothing
is too hard for God. We shall not all sleep........
Maybe the Lord is showing me more on the "body" than
I've been able to comprehend before............It has always been
easier for me to see things for the Spirit and soul.....but this
prayer was to be "wholly" preserved. Body, Soul, and Spirit.
Just maybe so.
That Calvary was not just for the "taking away of sins" by
the Lamb of God, but we shall behold HIM and He shall say
"Take up thy bed and walk!"
:HeartThrob:
Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard [even] to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh. :HeartThrob:
even the outer court is shaken by the Lord 's voice
but the temple mind/heart is proctected by the Lords power
our earth/mortal bodys contains the works of God in them seeds of life planted to glorify Him :icon_flower:
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
:cloud9: AMEN ladies........He's been talking to me about the glorified body lately, too..... :girlheart:
Lots of good thoughts from everyone........"we" have the mind of Christ
no doubt within us.
I liked what Servant pointed out that Jesus showed His glory on the
MOUNT of Transfiguration "before" His crucifixion! If that be a pattern
for us, we will be "appearing" to one another. I know that is almost
unbelilevable but you know the Spirit can do "anything!"
Was it His body that he showed, Servant? or was it His "glory>" How
much of the changing and quickening of the vile body is HIS Glory!
Well, I for one am gonna ask questions, I just might be like Esther
and get some anwers and some quickening.
Thanks again.
Also liked what Firewalker said. You be a great bunch of folks.
So glad you are here.
:cloud9: AMEN, RLV........very blessed to be among the brethren here....... :thumbsup:
:cloud9: PS........RLV, He gave me something new about the body, posted under the "Serpent Seed Doctrine" thread.........Blessings.... :girlheart:
I'm just given to say, that the three were given a mere glimpse of what the body appears like when it shines forth His glory from within.
But not just did his face and body (nature) reveal the glory.
So do His garments.
:cloud9: Amen....... :thumbsup:
Revelation also speaks about John measuring the tabernacle, but not the outer court . . .measuring the outer court of another, to me is judging someone by their outward appearance . . .
In a nutshell, I see us as spirit seed before manifesting in these bodies of flesh. Being in the spirit realm, we were "alive IN him". But when the time came for us to manifest on this earth, we had to die . . .which simply means to be separated . . .we are separated from our original domain as we are conceived in these bodies of flesh . . .and these bodies of flesh are bound to laws of the flesh, even though my spirit, which is really who I am . . .is not bound, neither is it affected by the pursuasions of the flesh realm. Now, my mind is a whole other matter . . .that's why submission and order are so difficult for us to acheive . . .truth is, it's not what you can achieve that ushers you into the realm of the Sabbath, but it's when you submit . . .you submit your mind to your spirit.
So the power comes at the "born again" experience because it is this experience that brings spirit and soul back into proper alignment with God's original order. It is there that resurrection takes place. The resurrection is not about natural flesh that has died returning to life as much as it is the resurrection of our spirit returning to it's place of dominance over our souls. The language in Revelation says there is a beast who was, then wasn't and now is . . .this is our carnality within . . .when we were born into the flesh, it was, when Christ finished the redemptive work on the cross, it wasn't . .but when we live according to our flesh, we resurrect it so that it is again.
Living in this body of flesh is the time of the Gentiles . . .my flesh is exposed to and bound by natural laws . . .the older I get, the more my bones creak and moan, the grayer my hair becomes, the weaker I get . . .but that's all natural stuff. Flesh profiteth nothing . . . Now the Lord is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty . . .
The time will come when the day of the Gentiles will be over . . when this body gives it's last breath . . .and when this body of flesh is laid to rest, my spirit will then return to the origin in the Father from which it came. So why did I manifest in the flesh in the first place? To come into the maturity of reproduction. To give birth the spiritual things to a natural earth . . .to see things as though they are and speak it out so that it can then be. That's what acknowledging Christ does . . . it ties my spirit to his spirit and he then does the inner transforming in me that allows his will that is already complete in the spirit, to manifest also on the earth . . .it's part of his plan to manifest his nature in every dimension. It's already complete in the spirit, and now, it's coming to completion in the flesh.
:cloud9: Amen to all this Nathan except one thing; THERE ARE A PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT TASTE DEATH BY WAY OF THE GRAVE. Mortality is going to be swallowed up of immortality, providing the Master with a place to lay His head, ie. the "superior" resurrection Paul talked about that takes place while still in the body.
The resurrection you just spoke of is represented as "rending the veil", ie. the first set of curtains between the outer and the inner, laying down our flesh. But there is another veil between the inner and Holy of Holies, that the Father is getting ready to rend, as only HE can, for no man can come to the FATHER, except HE call them. We've been called to Jesus and called to the Christ in the past 2 realms, but now is the call of the Father going out. Blessings....
hi everyone... :2c:
Jesus gave his life and died on the cross.If he didn't give his life,he would be walking with us this day.....But even in death he was faithful to his calling!
I beleive Jesus knew that he knew,that he would never die(he raised people from the dead on a regular basis)
When we are shown this mystery,I beleive we will live as long as our Father desires us to.
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Nathan on June 26, 2009, 01:22:05 AM
Revelation also speaks about John measuring the tabernacle, but not the outer court . . .measuring the outer court of another, to me is judging someone by their outward appearance . . .
Did not the Pharisee's and rulers do that to Jesus because
of what they could NOT "see" with their natural eyes?
What kind of "proof" was they looking for?
In a nutshell, I see us as spirit seed before manifesting in these bodies of flesh. Being in the spirit realm, we were "alive IN him". But when the time came for us to manifest on this earth, we had to die . . .which simply means to be separated . . .we are separated from our original domain as we are conceived in these bodies of flesh . . .and these bodies of flesh are bound to laws of the flesh, even though my spirit, which is really who I am . . .is not bound, neither is it affected by the pursuasions of the flesh realm. Now, my mind is a whole other matter . . .that's why submission and order are so difficult for us to acheive . . .truth is, it's not what you can achieve that ushers you into the realm of the Sabbath, but it's when you submit . . .you submit your mind to your spirit.
So the power comes at the "born again" experience because it is this experience that brings spirit and soul back into proper alignment with God's original order. It is there that resurrection takes place. The resurrection is not about natural flesh that has died returning to life as much as it is the resurrection of our spirit returning to it's place of dominance over our souls. The language in Revelation says there is a beast who was, then wasn't and now is . . .this is our carnality within . . .when we were born into the flesh, it was, when Christ finished the redemptive work on the cross, it wasn't . .but when we live according to our flesh, we resurrect it so that it is again.
Living in this body of flesh is the time of the GentilesI have wondred about that?!!!! . . .my flesh is exposed to and bound by natural laws . . .the older I get, the more my bones creak and moan, the grayer my hair becomes, the weaker I get . . .but that's all natural stuff. Flesh profiteth nothing . . . Now the Lord is that spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty . . .
The time will come when the day of the Gentiles will be over . . when this body gives it's last breath . . .and when this body of flesh is laid to rest, my spirit will then return to the origin in the Father from which it came. So why did I manifest in the flesh in the first place? To come into the maturity of reproduction. To give birth the spiritual things to a natural earth . . .to see things as though they are and speak it out so that it can then be. That's what acknowledging Christ does . . . it ties my spirit to his spirit and he then does the inner transforming in me that allows his will that is already complete in the spirit, to manifest also on the earth . . .it's part of his plan to manifest his nature in every dimension. It's already complete in the spirit, and now, it's coming to completion in the flesh.
Not sure that I understand exactly what you are saying on some
of the rest of it, Nathan, but it sure does not bother me.
I just wanted to point those couple of things out.
I FOUND THIS! ...
"This is not the church realm we have known, my friend, this is the incorruptible, immortal, unchangeable, omnipotent, eternal realm of God! And it is not a realm we enter after death, in some far-off heaven somewhere, but it is the realm prepared for God's mature sons right here upon earth, the realm of God's fullness, of perfection, of maturity, of wisdom, of power and dominion, where God is all that He is in His people — the realm of manifest sonship!" — Preston Eby
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 27, 2009, 04:06:46 AM
I FOUND THIS! ...
"This is not the church realm we have known, my friend, this is the incorruptible, immortal, unchangeable, omnipotent, eternal realm of God! And it is not a realm we enter after death, in some far-off heaven somewhere, but it is the realm prepared for God's mature sons right here upon earth, the realm of God's fullness, of perfection, of maturity, of wisdom, of power and dominion, where God is all that He is in His people — the realm of manifest
Is this the "discerning" of the TRUE body?
Not the in part church realm. But the unseen heavenly realm
incorruptible, immortal, unchangeable, omnipotent, Sons
of God in His Likeness, Jesus the Firstborn, afterward
those that are His at His coming........
eternal...........is it not? Maybe when it says "call for
the elders" ........these shall be the "elders" that come.
The 24???
I said that because of what is written about "not" discerning
the "body" being the cause of "sickness" "weakness" and
"some even die."
And when you couple this with what Nathan said about
measuring the outer court of another, /[color]to me is judging someone by their outward appearance . . .
I caught that because of those scriptures, Nathan.
And because when Jesus was being "crucified" there
were people that wanted to "see" a proof that their
"natural eyes" could see that He was who He said He
was. But it was "perceived" "seen by the Spirit"by
those who PERCEIVED.
PERCEPTION does not require proof that a person can
"see" with the natural eyes. It is a truth, an eternal
truth, that is "given" to know. John said, "And ye
know all things." It is one Stone talking to Another Stone
the beautiful jewels God has made.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 26, 2009, 02:02:14 AM
:cloud9: Amen to all this Nathan except one thing; THERE ARE A PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT TASTE DEATH BY WAY OF THE GRAVE. Mortality is going to be swallowed up of immortality, providing the Master with a place to lay His head, ie. the "superior" resurrection Paul talked about that takes place while still in the body.
The resurrection you just spoke of is represented as "rending the veil", ie. the first set of curtains between the outer and the inner, laying down our flesh. But there is another veil between the inner and Holy of Holies, that the Father is getting ready to rend, as only HE can, for no man can come to the FATHER, except HE call them. We've been called to Jesus and called to the Christ in the past 2 realms, but now is the call of the Father going out. Blessings....
For those that are ready for some meat, I won't need to take the time to explain this any further; for those still needing milk, this won't make the least bit of sense and I won't take the time to explain anyway. Simply archive this post in your email drafts folder or in notepad or wherever for when you can bare it. All of my studies of St. Paul over the last 19 years have continually persuaded me that he was a Word of Faith teacher in the modern expectation of a Word of Faith teacher, as well as Postmillenialist, UR, and other things that speak of God's triumph in mankind and in human history and in daily life, but obviously the challenge is to either find a singular statement to that effect that's undenyable, or to prove it doctrine by doctrine throughout his 13 epistles. Many have done just that, but when you're talking about such a volumn as all that Jesus wanted the nations observing in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- then many stumble through their unrenewed minds and think that we went on to some other subject when the Gospel is one Message that touches every single principle, problem, need, etc., of life. Remember his comments about imitating him as he imitated Christ? 1Corinthians 4 and 1Corinthians 11 for those who don't remember him ever saying that in passing, though words to that effect beyond those two places where he literally said it are carried through to most of his epistles in some way in more subtle ways. Jesus said He had power to lay His life down and power to take it up again, and no man could ever take it! Jesus said that if you'd continue in the Word He was continuing in that proceeded from the Father then you'd know the truth and would be just as free as Jesus, in John 8, because the same truth working in Him would be working in you to harvest point as was His lifestyle. John 15:7 if you abide in Me and My Words abide in you, then ask what you will, and it will be done for you! Same concepts in Colossians 3:12-17, as verified by John 16:23. Lots of you aren't there where you can even begin to understand much of the modern prosperity and healing theology, victorious living Word of Faith and Postmillenial application of the Gospel, so I'll make it brief with the major meditation [and restudy] tease for you or the worst migraine you've ever had if you're not ready to follow the Cloud. First of all, about what Cardinal said. Minimally read 1Corinthians chapters 10 through 16 as one complete discourse that never changes subjects. So, this "not tasting death" is simply the fullness of all of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit spoken of throughout those chapters, and Jesus said that if you really believed Him, then you'd never ever ever ever taste death.
Anyway, here's my bomb for some of you: 1Corinthians 4:
these things I have applied to myself and to Apollos FIGURATIVELY so that you would not think beyond what is written and that you wouldn't boast one against the other. I thought he meant the 10th chapter and other statements throughout his epistles about the Old Testament. That's not what he said at all in 1Corinthians 4. He said that
what he said about himself was FIGURATIVE. That dear man never walked in a day of persecution in his life, [other than believing for his own needs and the needs of others to be met with his faith teaching,] until it was time to testify before Ceasar and deliver the good testimony that Jesus Christ delivered. You couldn't touch his life! He walked so committed to the Written Word that he had power to lay his life down and he had power to take it up again. NO MAN COULD TAKE IT FROM HIM -- THIS COMMAND HE RECEIVED FROM HIS FATHER -- (DON'T LOSE WHAT I'M SAYING HERE) -- JESUS SAID IF YOU'D CONTINUE THE WAY HE WAS CONTINUING IN THE WORD OF THE FATHER THEN YOU'D BE JUST AS FREE AS HIM!! WE'VE RECEIVED THE SAME COMMANDMENTS OF THE FATHER THAT JESUS RECEIVED -- THOUGH OBVIOUSLY THEIR APPLICATION TO OUR LIVES AND THE TIMING OF OUR EVENTS MUST BE INTERPRETED TO EACH OF US AS THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE. Paul's comments about his own life were as parabolic as Jesus' parables. St. Paul overcame the world and as one made conformable to His life and death obtained the resurrection while still in the body! Lived as long as he wanted to and preached as long as he wanted to with his astral projecting self (1Corinthians 5:3, Colossians 2:5, et. al.) that he'd operate in by speaking in other tongues and receiving the bread and cup daily and superabounding in thanksgiving and triumphant longsuffering thereby -- and when he'd had enough, he said years earlier that to depart and be with Christ is far better, and so he let them take his life. But they didn't touch him all of the days of his life, according to him, if words mean anything in the Corinthians letters where rants about himself were figurative. The Written Word is the key to the supernatural. Always has been and always will be. We MUST BECOME the letter that both kills and makes alive depending on how He chooses to use us as we submit wholly to Him to be possessed of the entire New Testament!!
:cloud9: Awesome, Martin, I HEARD that! Blessings.... :laughing7:
I am disecting that post, Martin.
Have written some stuff......and seen some "new" stuff
but I am too tired tonight to fool with this computer any more
Downloaded Internet Explorer 8 and had to undo it.
I will try to post tomorrow. Here we all be. :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:
Quote from: Redlettervoice on June 30, 2009, 02:12:00 AM
I am disecting that post, Martin.
Have written some stuff......and seen some "new" stuff
but I am too tired tonight to fool with this computer any more
Downloaded Internet Explorer 8 and had to undo it.
I will try to post tomorrow. Here we all be. :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:
So, IE8 is basically still total GARBAGE, eh? Made the mistake of downloading it last September or so, and wound up downloading firefox simply 'cause I wasn't sure if I dumped IE8 if it would revert to IE7. Though it was a good safety precaution for the once in a millenium computer glitch, when I dumped IE8 the computer defaulted to the IE7 it had already downloaded. Was playing with the idea of downloading it, thinking that surely enough time had passed since I did like a couple of features though found it very incompatible with the websites I'd visit, and my computer tried to do an auto-install on that, but it introduced itself as one of the updates and gave me the option of saying "OOO hell no!!" and I've wondered ever since that if they tried to push it down my throat if it was worth anything, but knew the problems I got into last year and was just waiting on someone to tell me if it was worth upgrading to it yet. Kinda late in the year for it to still not be a good download, so it might not be worth trying again until about January/February '10
Hi Martin :hithere:
I just saw on your site that you are getting married. Congradulations!
Anyway, I was just wondering about your post which intrigued me regarding the Word of Faith application to 1 Cor 4. When you say that Paul never walked a day of persecution in his life, are you saying that he never was persecuted, or that because of his faith walk, the persecution did not become a burden?
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 02:52:01 AMWhen you say that Paul never walked a day of persecution in his life, are you saying that he never was persecuted, or that because of his faith walk, the persecution did not become a burden?
Thanks for the congrads! Actually, sorta saying both 'cause the Pharisees did still get up in Jesus' face, although He was able to walk off any time He pleased and the love that was motivating the shield of faith in His life kept Him protected. Wanting to say more about Ephesians 6, but can't really right now. "Listening" right now for Him... faith works by love, so the shield of faith that quenches all of the firey darts of the wicked one is the pursuit of God's love through meditation in the Scriptures on it, surrounding yourself with the knowledge of God Himself loving you, even if that means saying it over and over and over again your last half hour before falling asleep "God loves me" until it REALLY sinks in with the water works and everything else happening, and by pursuing peace with all men with your fasting and praying that's motivated out of love rather than the evangelical thing of trying to invoke carnal destructions.
He said that what he was saying about himself and Apollos was FIGURATIVE, and I'd previously limited that to 1Corinthians 10 where he was talking about Israel's journey through the wilderness, etc., but he wasn't saying he interpreted Scripture figuratively, but that he interpreted himself figuratively, though obviously carefully and prayerfully in conveying the truth of the Gospel, encouraging them to imitate him as he imitated Christ -- Who, as you know, taught quite a few parables. I hadn't paid enough attention all of my life to the fact that he was saying that what he'd say about himself was figurative. Speaking as a fool, compelled by them, as he said, and hence all of the charges left and right by most of the Body of Christ at the time of him being a false Apostle and THE liar. Too many overlapping points between his epistles and the epistles of the other Apostles and the Gospels for it to have been accusations over doctrine, so it had to be his hyperbolic thing about always wrestling according to the power with which God so supernaturally was working into him as he spoke in tongues more than them all.
Sorta like some folks these days that'll spend a year somewhere preaching and mention a time or two when they narrowly made rent and will talk about having wrestled with God's angel a few nights over that one, like Jacob. But, the modern expressions of that usually aren't understood to dogmatically be literal. The understood intent is that God let 'em sweat it to the last possible second as they stood firm on what He'd told them by His Written Word and Spirit about being there and taking care of every need while they were there. To read his epistles without being aware of that, and this sounds like the most beaten to death Apostle that's ever walked the face of the earth, to where even Clement of Rome made the mistake in the latter part of the 1st century in thinking that Paul meant he'd literally been imprisoned 7 times.
But this man was always giggling too much in the spirit for God not to be doing a whole lot better by him than those that have read that throught he eyes of tradition to likewise reconcile with that. He was as bad as me about grinning from ear to ear. :Sparkletooth: You draw upon the helmet of salvation by maintaining the oil of joy. Too many passages to get into with that on how to reign with Him here, but Isaiah 12:2 says you draw from salvation/deliverance with joy, Song of Solomon 3:11 says it's on the day of your gladness of heart that you receive your crown (i.e. helmet of salvation) with which you rule in God's wisdom. Jerry Savelle's got a book called "If Satan Can't Steal Your Joy, He Can't Keep Your Goods" on this very theme. St. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil, and when the dust settles, God and I will still be standing and I'll have another testimony to tell of God's goodness and integrity to His Written Word and preach it all over the world from the top of the world to the bottom of the world and all of the way around it, until there's nowhere for you to hide!
Satan: IT IS WRITTEN, THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!! (Psalm 82, Psalm 136:2, John 8:31-32, John 10:35, Ephesians 5:1, Colossians 3:17)
QuoteSt. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil
Amen to that. I think to me the most revealing and dramatic evidence of an old man dead and a new man resurrected is when he can giggle when he should be crying, or when he says he has everything, but the world looks at him and says he has nothing. I believe Paul suffered persecutions, but not that the suffering was able to rebuild the house he had torn down: his sinful nature which seeks vengeance and does not want to glorify God in the presence of adversity.
I was checking out the verse you mentioned regarding the figurative aspect of 1 Cor 4:6 and found some interesting stuff. Here is what I see in the verse:
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have
in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
The phrase "I have in a figure transferred" is from the Greek
metaschematizo, which means to "transfigure" or "transform." We see that the word "figure" and "form" in each of the English alternates. I believe, rather than the word signifying a metephoric association (like a type or shadow) the word is signifying a kind of transformation. Here is another usage I thought was interesting:
Php 3:21
(Christ) who will transform (metaschematizo) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
This sense of transformation is connected to the "these things" that Paul was talking about:
1 Corinthians 4
3 it doesn't matter to me if I am judged by you or even by a court of law. In fact, I don't judge myself.
4 I don't know of anything against me, but that doesn't prove that I am right. The Lord is my judge.
5 So don't judge anyone until the Lord returns. He will show what is hidden in the dark and what is in everyone's heart. Then God will be the one who praises each of us.
The part about not judging eachother, and considering the Lord to be the only judge who will expose the motives of men's hearts is the "these things" that Paul and Apollos transforms into themselves. In other words, the advice, to not judge men's motives and to let God be the judge, are words that Paul and Apollos have made themselves to be in the form of. They embody those commandments so that the younger in the church can see what those commands look like in action.
I would not deny that Paul's persecutions were figurative. In fact I think the Bible shows that Christ's literal sufferings were figurative of our death and resurrections to new lives (the killing away of the flesh). It would not however, if it were figurative mean that Christ did not actually suffer physically on the Cross.
However, it looks to me that what the verse is saying in 1 Cor 4:6 is that Paul is taking on the form of the words in his walk so that others could learn from his example.
Ditto to Card.
Awesome Martin.
May I add,
That our Lord Jesus Christ, when asked if this cup may pass him by;
was He not referring to His flesh, and not the cross.
Ok, I'm trying to make some sense out of what Martin and others are saying. Not quite there, yet.
In 1 Cor 3, Paul makes a distinction between himself and the believers he is writing to, calling himself a 'master builder,' in the greek, 'architektōn.' This is a really bold assertion. He says he lays the foundation and someone else builds on it--that same foundation the one already having been laid by Christ.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--1Cor 3
For this reason, he calls himself (and the other apostles), "God's fellow workers," co-laborers with God, and, this, really puts him on the same level as Christ, it seems, The believers for whom he is laying the foundation, he calls 'God's husbandry, ' harkening back to the garden of Eden, and "God's building," looking forward to the holy city of Revelation.
9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
--1 Cor 3
So, in this chapter, we learn that for those who have not yet attained the level of Paul, there are differences.
Paul starts chapter 4 by emphasizing that even though he is a servant [of Christ], he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God--mustērion theos. And, it is these mysteries which I think Martin is alluding to when he talks about Paul "transfiguring' himself to present suffering for the sakes of others, when he is not really suffering at all. Well, this is where I get lost.
6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
--1 Cor 4
[these things] " I have in a figure transferred" [to myself]
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
That word, metaschematizo, really means to transform yourself with a disguise, as an actor might do before he walks on stage. In other words, he is purposely presenting himself as something he is not, so that he might benefit others. This kind of has my head spinning.
"...we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. "
... for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
--1 Cor 4
How does Paul's disguise, and playacting, if that is what it is, benefit others?
Molly,
There's the dual sense in which it would benefit both himself and his hearers in curtailing their sin and presumption, and if I may use the superhero analogy with Superman being Clark Kent: the subterfuge affords him an actual life, or the closest thing to one, protects his loved ones from enemies, and is a limitation upon the sins of his enemies with not letting them get that close of a shot. Though the way the stories always seem to play out, it's always Lois Lane on the chopping block anyway, to where it's sorta a delicate balance on benefits verses self protectiveness that degenerates moral excellence.
It would give the Churches a pattern when St. Paul would be bold about that, so they could imitate it, give the enemies of the faith a living example of what this is supposed to look like, keep the memory of Jesus Christ alive in their minds among those who'd had the privelege Peter talks about with being an eyewitness of His Majesty, restrain the flesh of others and of himself and let others know what to always expect out of him, it would give the anointing the most to work with through him in demonstrations of power so that burdens would be loosed, yokes would be destroyed, and burdens would totally be removed, whether physical with health, financial issues, and famine, or present dangers of living in a world with proportionately more political ACTIVISTS than we've got today that could cut your throat on a whim of bad information.
Contrary to what some wolves in sheep clothing would say that have crept into UR circles with a spirit of AntiChrist in continually conveying the idea without qualification, limitation, and transformation that supposedly this message of UR is supposed to set you free to be the real you -- NO!! a thousand times NO!! -- this message is for setting you free so that by the Blood of Jesus, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Colossians 3:17, et. al.). There is a stage at which it's knocking the foolish pretenses out from under you and being the ministry of condemnation to you that it should have been all along so that once the flesh was condemned and destroyed, God in His Season Who chose you from your mother's womb and set you apart can finally reveal Jesus Christ in you as it says in Galatians 1.
I'm with you, Molly. My head is spinning too, but so help me God,
I made a statement that is so true when I said "we" have the mind
of Christ. "WE"........the body is speaking to one another here in
this thread, I hear HIM in all .......I was so excited about this thread
that I wore myself out making notes of all kinds yesterday when I
could. And the beauty of the ONE thru the "all" is sticking out to me
more and more. I believe that God is allowing the "leaves" of the
tree, the "words of healing" ........to be "discerned" .......if God did
not open our ears, we would never "hear" nothing! It is God that
doth all things well. It is God! It is God! It is never "never" we who
can do it! It is by His GRACE! It is a Gift! His Son is a Gift! And
there "are" those that are "figuratively" speaking for HIM. There
is a verse coming to my mind now about the "sanctified" ones. And
those that He "sanctified" are one.For it became HIM for whom are
all things by whom are all things, in bringing "many" Sons to make
the Captain of their salvation PERFECT thru sufferings. So "both" He
that s
sanctified and "they who ARE sanctified" are all of one...for which
cause HE is not ashamed to call them brethren.
I awoke at 3 am again and could
not "wait" to start typing. It is God's way of speaking "to me"
sometimes "thru me" .......as well as others, I am getting it figured
out "while" I am typing. He is certainly not just speaking to others
but first of all to me. For us, I "hear" ......where the carcase is,
there will"I" be. Where the "sanctified" ones are. Where those that
truly belong to ME, that search for ME with "all" their heart, and
figuratively transfer ME to themselves, tho they appear as fools
to others, they make themselves fools that they may be wise!
There is a "carcase" where this bunch gathers, and unto HIM shall
the "gathering" of the "people" be! Selah.
For it is HE who is absent in the flesh, but present in the Spirit
beholding "our" order which is HIS ORDER for we are the work
of HIS Hands........and He "joys" over us with LOVE!!! And God
is a God of "order" .......He doesn't skip a step that we as
individuals "need." He will make each person "understand" ......
if we have NOT yet understood, we will. For there is NO Man
that "follows HIM" and walks in darkness. He lights our lights
that we may figuratively be a City set on a hill and so that "all"
that are in the "house" may see HIM.
Thank you, Martin for speaking on that word "Figuratively."
It was headbanging sure nuff to get what you were saying
but when I heard it from the Spirit, brother I got it! Of course,
He does not want us to think of puny man, that is exactly
what Paul was speaking of there, that we should not think
of "man" more than we should. So He has transferred Himself
into man for HIS Glory, "and" He has shown man his nothingness
by doing so. All glory to the Lord! And may the Son of God be
praised!!!
God's building a PERFECT LOVE City, a realm where there is NO MORE judging after the flesh. Rather, there is a "discerning" of the BODY.
When we judge after the flesh, we are really pronoucing judgement
on ourselves! So judge nothing "before" the "time" and the "time"
is when the LORD comes! Now the Lord comes, IN YOU, when He
shows like He did Paul re the fornicator, but we must "must" know
that the Judgement of the Son is "always" unto LIFE! It brings forth
fruit unto LIFE! It does not KILL and then leave dead........It kills
and MAKES ALIVE! It raises to damnation and behold the Lamb
who "takes away" the sins of the world.
You should "read" all the rambling I did yesterday and "almost" posted
it "before I GOT it" ..........that which was lacking in my understanding
on this, God supplied. And I am confident my understanding may not
sound exactly like yours, but God knows just "how" to click it for each
one of us!
Jesus said "if I honor myself" my honor is nothing! It takes the Lord
to HONOR ME!! Figuratively think on that one! Think of Paul when he
said, "it is nothing to me if YOU judge me" but "judge nothing til the
Lord comes." The Spirit doth the Works of the Spirit, and the Spirit
grows leaves on the TREE "HE" is! And He giveth LIFE to HIS BODY!
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow F44 more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism F45 in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now for a moment, transfer "me" "figuratively" into that which is in need, and see God meet that need thru the leaves of His Body like
right here in this thread, with an abundant word on my understanding
which lacked. See me up there in that scripture? I do. And I see the
"we" who God comes "thru" to give me ABUNDANTLY thru the leaves
of His Body, which is "figuratively" lying as dead in street, and someone
said: But with what "body" do they come? ha They come with HIS OWN
BODY. YOU!
Where does this WORK? It works where the carcase is! Hey Cardinal!
Do you hear that? The "eagles" gather there.
To Seth, to Beloved Servant, To only truth, Nathan, Molly, Cardinal
and Martin....RoseyRose, and Firewalker, went back over this thread
and saw that you are here too.....and myself............bless you from the realm of
the Spirit that I have heard thru you and do acknowledge. That He
transfers Himself thru us figuratively. I can't quit saying "figuratively."
ha
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2009, 10:25:07 AM
Ok, I'm trying to make some sense out of what Martin and others are saying. Not quite there, yet.
In 1 Cor 3, Paul makes a distinction between himself and the believers he is writing to, calling himself a 'master builder,' in the greek, 'architektōn.' This is a really bold assertion. He says he lays the foundation and someone else builds on it--that same foundation the one already having been laid by Christ.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--1Cor 3
For this reason, he calls himself (and the other apostles), "God's fellow workers," co-laborers with God, and, this, really puts him on the same level as Christ, it seems, The believers for whom he is laying the foundation, he calls 'God's husbandry, ' harkening back to the garden of Eden, and "God's building," looking forward to the holy city of Revelation.
9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
--1 Cor 3
So, in this chapter, we learn that for those who have not yet attained the level of Paul, there are differences.
Paul starts chapter 4 by emphasizing that even though he is a servant [of Christ], he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God--mustērion theos. And, it is these mysteries which I think Martin is alluding to when he talks about Paul "transfiguring' himself to present suffering for the sakes of others, when he is not really suffering at all. Well, this is where I get lost.
6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
--1 Cor 4
[these things] " I have in a figure transferred" [to myself]
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
That word, metaschematizo, really means to transform yourself with a disguise, as an actor might do before he walks on stage. In other words, he is purposely presenting himself as something he is not, so that he might benefit others. This kind of has my head spinning.
"...we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. "
... for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
--1 Cor 4
How does Paul's disguise, and playacting, if that is what it is, benefit others?
Molly, Paul does not say that he transfigures his suffering. The beginning of 1 Corinthians 4 has nothing to do with suffering. He opens the chapter by talking about not judging eachother's motives for God is the other judge, so we shouldn't even judge ourselves because He knows better than we do.
Then he says THESE THINGS (ie the things that he just was talking about).... I have transfigured to myself so that the church can learn from an example. It's not playacting. The word metaschēmatizō can be used to mean a disguise but the word just means to "transfer a form." Transfering a form onto yourself can take TWO meanings: 1) fakery, like Satan transforming (metaschēmatizō) himself into an angel of light (in which case it is a disguise). 2) God "transforming (metaschēmatizō) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power." That is why the definition says to transform
OR disguise. When Paul takes the words regarding his refusal to judge men's motives, he is not disguising himself as something he is not. He is taking on the very form, the embodiment of those words onto himself in the same real way that the body of our humble state will be transformed to the conformity of His glorious body.
If the form of the words is transfered to one's self disingenuously, then it is a disguise. If the form of the words is transferred to one's self genuinely, then it is real.
He is saying that Paul and Apollos are taking on the form of the words. They are being the very embodiment of the words so that the church can learn. THEN, he moves on from that point to talk about his suffering. Paul was not faking, or playacting, his suffering. It was very real. When Paul and Apollos transfigured the "do not judge" words to themselves, it means they literally abided by those words. They didn't just playact non-judgment.
What are we to say, that Paul playacted suffering, so that others would either suffer genuinely when he did not? Or that Paul playacted his suffering, so that others would playact, and the whole world would be given the impression that they suffered for the Gospel when they didn't?
:wacko2:
Quote from: SethWhat are we to say, that Paul playacted suffering, so that others would either suffer genuinely when he did not? Or that Paul playacted his suffering, so that others would playact, and the whole world would be given the impression that they suffered for the Gospel when they didn't?
I know. Amazing, isn't it?
9 It seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of a parade. We are like men sentenced to die in front of a crowd. We have been made a show for the whole creation to see. Angels and people are staring at us. --1 Cor 4 ['dick and jane' bible]
9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. --1 Cor 4 [King James Bible]
[We have been made]
"a show"[for we are made]
"a spectacle"G2302
θέατρον
theatrontheh'-at-ron
From G2300;
a place for public show ("theatre"), that is, general audience room; by implication
a show itself (figuratively): - spectacle,
theatre.God is so wonderful, isn't he?
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 06:39:54 PM
Molly, Paul does not say that he transfigures his suffering. The beginning of 1 Corinthians 4 has nothing to do with suffering. He opens the chapter by talking about not judging eachother's motives for God is the other judge, so we shouldn't even judge ourselves because He knows better than we do.
Then he says THESE THINGS (ie the things that he just was talking about).... I have transfigured to myself so that the church can learn from an example. It's not playacting. The word metaschēmatizō can be used to mean a disguise but the word just means to "transfer a form." Transfering a form onto yourself can take TWO meanings: 1) fakery, like Satan transforming (metaschēmatizō) himself into an angel of light (in which case it is a disguise). 2) God "transforming (metaschēmatizō) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power." That is why the definition says to transform OR disguise. When Paul takes the words regarding his refusal to judge men's motives, he is not disguising himself as something he is not. He is taking on the very form, the embodiment of those words onto himself in the same real way that the body of our humble state will be transformed to the conformity of His glorious body.
If the form of the words is transfered to one's self disingenuously, then it is a disguise. If the form of the words is transferred to one's self genuinely, then it is real.
He is saying that Paul and Apollos are taking on the form of the words. They are being the very embodiment of the words so that the church can learn. THEN, he moves on from that point to talk about his suffering. Paul was not faking, or playacting, his suffering. It was very real. When Paul and Apollos transfigured the "do not judge" words to themselves, it means they literally abided by those words. They didn't just playact non-judgment.
:goodpost:
Yes, it was Paul's great honor, that his sufferings were made a show for the world, just like Christ.
Rom 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Cor 1:6
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
Acts 9
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man (Paul), how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Don't mistake the word for the transfiguration of Christ on the mountain with the word Paul uses for transfigure.
Christ's transfiguration is the real thing--
G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.
Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
This is a different word from the one that Paul is using--
6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes...
--1 Cor 4
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self)
Here is one I have always had affection for:
Acts 5
40 and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.
42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
There is the suffering of the apostles made theater for our sakes.
To transfigure OR disguise.
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
Yes, I can transform myself by putting on a wig and a mustache and a hat and strange clothes, but that is not me--that is me playacting, transforming myself--meta
schematizo--changing for the purpose of 'schema'--scheme--, we have the same word in English.
You have to understand my jaw dropped when Martin said what he said--I am just getting used to this myself.
It's not the first time Paul has accused himself of playacting--
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. --1 Cor 9
But what is so amazing about this revelation is the possibility that he was not suffering in the body but had already attained the resurrection.
Here is another clue from the scriptures you quoted--
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.--2Cor 1
It is so easy for us to identify with the suffering piece of that scripture that we overlook the consolation and salvation part.
"salvation"G4991
σωτηρία
sōtēriaso-tay-ree'-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun;
rescue or safety (physically or morally): -
deliver, health, salvation,
save, saving.
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent; Transfigure.
Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent. Transfigure.
Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. He transfigured the words about non-judgment to himself. If anything, if the word "disguise" was intended, the words were disguised as Paul and Apollos, in that the words were embodied in them both in the flesh. It's like "the word made flesh." Molly, Paul suffered in the body.
The word schema means "figure." And "meta" means transfer. We derive the word "scheme" from "schema" but that does not mean the derived word is the same meaning as the root word. Words change over time. Paul and Appollos TRANS-FIGURED the words to THEMSELVES. The words (regarding non-judgment) were transferred to be the figure of the apostles so that they would be exemplified.
None of this can be taken to mean that Paul did not truly suffer for the Gospel. Good grief you guys.
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent. Transfigure.
Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.
Yes, to you, he did, and to others, he didn't. You see?
I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. --1Cor9
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent. Transfigure.
Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.
I also see that he used his actual, physical sufferings in the same manner (he was beheaded!). I.e., "count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations", "take up your cross and follow me [Jesus]"....though the life of a believer is full of trials and fire, yet His yoke is easy and His burden light, because "I send the Comforter...I will never leave you nor forsake you...if God be for us who can be against us...I will be with you always"...
1 Peter 1:6-7: "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2009, 09:54:34 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
To transfigure OR disguise.
I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent. Transfigure.
Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.
Yes, to you, he did, and to others, he didn't. You see?
I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
--1Cor9
No I don't see. What I see is that he suffered like he said he did.
Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2009, 10:00:44 PM
1 Peter 1:6-7: "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Yes, but what is that 'little while'? Our 80 year lifespan? Or two weeks out of that lifespan? Or what?
...may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus ChristThis is the end result of our 'little while' of suffering. Can we achieve this is our lifetime? And, once achieved, then what? Do we still suffer?
We achieve it on the earth. For a little while we suffer for the gospel and then Christ redeems the purchased possession. The suffering that we endure reveals the love of Christ in that while we suffer, we do not retaliate. And the trials of our faith produce patience. It's all very simple.
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 10:07:34 PM
We achieve it on the earth. For a little while we suffer for the gospel and then Christ redeems the purchased possession. The suffering that we endure reveals the love of Christ in that while we suffer, we do not retaliate. And the trials of our faith produce patience. It's all very simple.
But is there a before and after to this process? A metamorphosis, as it were?
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. --1 Cor 15
Can that happen in one's lifetime?
I think it will continue for as long as the world needs Christ revealed to them through his Body.
Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2009, 10:15:31 PM
I think it will continue for as long as the world needs Christ revealed to them through his Body.
Not sure what 'it' is but I think the world will change when the body of Christ stops being stuck at the cross.
The story continues after the cross...
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
You know what's interesting about that? The moment you believe, you get nailed to the Cross with Christ. Old man slain, new man born. And both happen simultaneously daily. Getting stuck on the cross IS WHY we are blessed when we believe.
:HeartThrob:
Paul talked so much about being buffeted, only being able to see dimly, etc. It seems to me He looked forward to deliverance from his body of sin and death. I may be wrong, but that's how I understand.
Yes Seth, the spiritual overlayed on the physical...transcending or transfiguring as it were...until the corruptable puts on the incorruption...in the resurrection. In the meantime, we carry the cross with us.
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
Well, I didn't "hear" Martin saying what yall did!!! Honest. I thought
he was saying exactly the same thing YOU are! Of course, Paul
suffered! He was "called" to suffer. Those that suffer, shall
REIGN. Paul said he was "figuratively" using himself and Apollos
as an example NOT to think of man more highly than we should.
To think on Christ speaking "thru" man and even when "that"
happens when: HE breaks the bread that we are, it is HIM
also figuratively speaking. That's what I got out of it anyway.
I ate the pure blood of the grape!!! I ate what I heard and I heard
what I heard by the Spirit and I have been quickened all day.
Even in my natural body, which was about to start yelling ha.
I feel soooooooooo much better! I even "went" somewhere today.
I still rode in the buggy's but I left my walker at home! I was
estatic!
This was a feast to me......I never saw so much on "discerning
the body" and isn't it something that I started this thread asking
about the natural body and God turned my mind to HIS BODY.
Bless you all........
Hallujah! Thanks for the testimony. Thank you God for helping our sister today.
HI Redletter :HeartThrob:, confusion entered in right away, which is why we discussed it. I think it starts with different understandings of what Paul was transferring, and whether or not "figuratively" is the right understanding of what he was saying.
The phrase, "in a figure transferred" is not the same thing as "figuratively transferred" because the Greek word in question denotes a transfer of a form from one thing to another, whereas the word figurative suggests a non-literal understanding. Paul was taking the commandment not to judge and was transferring the figure of the words onto himself, as if to become the physical manifestation of the words. It's as if to say he was putting the words on, like a shirt, so that the church could see the words exemplified in action.
But, when the concept of "figurative" (a non-literal understanding) gets mixed in with "suffering" when neither the word "figurative" was meant, nor applied to suffering, one gets the impression that Paul didn't really suffer for the Gospel, that we shouldn't take his proclamations about his experiences with suffering as being something that literally happened, that it was all just figurative, that he was just playacting.
That's why I wanted to clarify. I disagree, and I think with good reason, if the suggestion is that Paul did not literally suffer for the Gospel. If that is not the message here, than I am glad we could clear it up so that meaning can be plainly understood.
:cloud9:
Quote from: Martinthis message is for setting you free so that by the Blood of Jesus, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Colossians 3:17, et. al.).
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. --Col 3
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, ....
--Gal 1
1 Corinthians 13:12
And we see now [Forsooth we see now] by a mirror in darkness, but then face to face;...2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, that said [the] light to shine of darknesses, he hath given light in our hearts, to the lightening of the science of the clearness of God [he hath enlightened in our hearts, to the illumining of the science of the clearness of God], in the face of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: MartinYou draw upon the helmet of salvation by maintaining the oil of joy. Too many passages to get into with that on how to reign with Him here, but Isaiah 12:2 says you draw from salvation/deliverance with joy, Song of Solomon 3:11 says it's on the day of your gladness of heart that you receive your crown (i.e. helmet of salvation) with which you rule in God's wisdom. Jerry Savelle's got a book called "If Satan Can't Steal Your Joy, He Can't Keep Your Goods" on this very theme. St. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil, and when the dust settles, God and I will still be standing and I'll have another testimony to tell of God's goodness and integrity to His Written Word and preach it all over the world from the top of the world to the bottom of the world and all of the way around it, until there's nowhere for you to hide!
I just love this message, Martin. The crown is achieved in this life--the helmet of salvation--.
perikephalaia sōtērion.
"the helmet" [of salvation]
G4030
περικεφαλαία
perikephalaiaper-ee-kef-al-ah'-yah
Feminine of a compound of G4012 and G2776;
encirclement of the head, that is, a helmet: - helmet.
1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.What other prize could be worth receiving but Christ?
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. --Col 2
1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!
2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.
3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
--Psa 21
"a crown" [of pure gold]
H5849
עטר
‛âṭaraw-tar'
A primitive root;
to encircle (
for attack or
protection); especially to crown (literally or figuratively): -
compass, crown.
2 Cor 1:21-22
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (arrhabōn - down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Cor 5:4-7
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (arrhabōn - down payment) of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Ephesian 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:16-25
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Proverbs 12;4 a capable wife is a crown of Glory unto her
husbands head.
well,Carlene, a little different perspective..macrocosm....
God's spirit sons and daughters sent down[lowered] into
little clay costumes...and taking on roles of good and evil,
pre-written script of the creator of the Universe. Natural
children of God sown in the earth.[exercize in good and evil]
Each child in his individual vessel plays out the role ordained
by God in this temporal life.
Our Life is hidden in Christ...at His revealing we find our
identity also. At the end of our earthly roles we disrobe
our earthly garments and return home where are spiritual
garments are all prepared and waiting for us.
These spiritual garments are our TRUE IDENTITY HIDDEN IN
CHRIST. SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD SENT TO
EARTH.Disguised in sinful roles[garments] disrobe and return
HOME.
we are told from henceforth,to know NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH
it is because any fleshy identity down here has nothing to do
with the eternal identity of the sons and daughters of God
We are fastly approaching the GRAND CLIMAX OF THIS
CINERAMA PLAYED BELOW.
The audience has watched the plot develope..good versus evil
displayed openly on this temporal plane.
Evil appeared to have won out[impossible scenario!]
But alas!! the REVEALING OF HIDDEN THINGS BEGIN TO MAKE
THEMSELVES KNOWN. THE HERO IS SHOWN--LIES AND
INTRIGUES ARE EXPOSED. The Grand illusion REVEALED
At the GREAT CURTAIN CALL THE ACTORS BOW OUT OF THE
TEMPORAL AND TAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE AUDITORIUM
TO WATCH THE GRAND FINALE.
AH! But there is to be a whole NEW Act a NEW HEAVEN..A
NEW EARTH SHOWING TRUTH.
Anyway....
QuoteFor I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Paul is always pointing us ahead to something mysterious. Here it is to 'the glory which shall be revealed
in us.But, if we read closely, we can see that what he is pointing us to has already happened for him--
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, ....--Gal 1
Two manifestations of the promise: the earnest, and the completion.
We receive the Spirit to act as parts of the body, where Christ received it fully and without measure. We receive a measured amount so that we may fit into a many membered body which does different things (are all healers? are all the foot? etc)
So while we have been translated into the kingdom and are seated with Christ, we, in patience wait for all to be fulfilled. That is why Paul spoke both as having received, and also waiting for the completion. The kingdom is like a net full of fish. Some fish are bad, some good. When the fisherman pulls the net into the boat, he proceeds to remove the bad fish and keep the good ones. That is what the kingdom (peace in the spirit and service to Christ according to Paul) is like.
The peace and service are being picked through by the fisherman until only good fish remain. Christ is being revealed in us, yet show me a person who says they are without sin, and I will show you a liar who has no Truth in them.
Two manifestations of the promise: the earnest, and the full redemption of the purchased possession.
Naturally, we would ask, why two manifestations of the promise? Why does not God not give it all at once?
Three words, three reasons: Hope, Patience, Faith
Quote from: sethyet show me a person who says they are without sin, and I will show you a liar who has no Truth in them.
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
--Rom 8
Does that show that those people who walk after the Spirit do not have sin? No, because if they say that, they are liars and the truth is not in them. So, rather than present a scripture to contradict another, harmonize them.
The scripture you quoted does not have to do with whether or not people HAVE sin, but whether they continue to ABIDE in sin. One may have sin, and the temptations and struggles that accompany it, but walk free of slavery to it.
When you understand the two manifestations of the promise (the earnest, and the redemption of the purchased possession) then you will understand why we have already come to New Jerusalem (the bride) yet we also eagerly await the city.
The city we are in is being purged of bad fish. The city we wait for doesn't have any bad fish. Same city, completed process.
You'll understand why we were saved from sin, why we are being saved from sin, and why he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Same salvation, completed process.
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2009, 10:45:09 PM
Does that show that those people who walk after the Spirit do not have sin? No, because if they say that, they are liars and the truth is not in them. So, rather than present a scripture to contradict another, harmonize them.
The scripture you quoted does not have to do with whether or not people HAVE sin, but whether they continue to ABIDE in sin. One may have sin, and the temptations and struggles that accompany it, but walk free of slavery to it.
That's the challenge, but also the blessing isn't it, when scripture harmonizes...when we get a clearer glimpse.
Isn't there a bit of mystery with this too? I've been toying with it in my mind for some time, not quite sure about it yet. Paul talked about constantly missing the mark. Yet he said it was no longer him doing it, but the law of sin and death that dwelled in his flesh ("But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me". Romans 7:20) 'Splain that, Lucy :laughing7:. Free/not condemned in Christ/becoming new creature, then the sin of the flesh no longer laid to his account? :dontknow:
HI Jabcat, this is probably a conversation for another time, but I think Romans 7 is often misunderstood. Traditionally people think that Paul's use of "I" means himself in the present time. However, there is a literary device in the Greek known as Gnomic Present, which we use today still. It is when someone refers to themselves as "I" when speaking universally. In the case of Romans 7, Paul's present tense was used to speak as the universal Isrealite when they struggled under the Law. This is why in Romans 8, Paul says "BUT NOW" compared to then. That is why, in Romans 7, Paul says "When we were under the law, the motions of sin worked in us." We are not under the law anymore, but set free.
We do struggle with the flesh, but the struggle that Paul is describing has nothing to do with our struggle in Grace (which chastises us to live godly lives). The struggle he is describing was how sin grew more and more under the law, until we felt condemned. But now there is no further condemnation for them who walk according to the Spirit.
Again, it's probably a conversation for another time.
This whole thing is a process. I think that maybe Paul did not want to discourage us, so he is showing us the process. Thus, what looks like it might contradict does not, it's just a different step in the process. That's why Paul says he will show himself as certain things to certain people. He shows himself a Jew to the Jews. Well, he was a Jew in the process but now he considers that and all his claim to self-righteousness so much dung. So, he's not deceiving others, he is giving them a place to step on the ladder which they might not otherwise do if they felt condemned or rejected while still tender shoots.
Likewise, we start out with the law which condemns and end up with grace which makes us perfect.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
--Heb 8
Just because we start out with a sin nature doesn't mean that is the goal, or that will be with us forever. We just have to stay on the right path.
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
--Gal 3
If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing. I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.
Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life. Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life. Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who WILL set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
I'll open a topic about it and post my thoughts :HeartThrob:
A short note. What Paul is talking about is how sin uses the Law to deceive us and grow exceedingly sinful. That is not our experience under Grace. Grace kills sin. Being under the Law grows sin. Romans 7 cuts off Paul mid-thought. Continuing to Romans 8:
So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. BUT NOW there is no condemnation (meaning "judgment" as described in Romans 7 when under the Law) for those who walk by the Spirit and are no longer in the flesh since the Spirit of God is in them.
Romans 7 traces the pathway of them who are caused to be dead in sin by the Law, to Romans 8 which shows the end of that condemnation when the Law leads to Grace in Christ. Understanding what Paul intends to say with Romans 7, and how it leads to Romans 8 REALLY harmonizes the scripture.
Romans 8 shows that we no longer serve the law sin with the flesh because Christ has set us free from that former conflict. Here is some info in the mean time: http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/sunday14aaen.html
Quote from: jabcatAlso, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life. Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life. Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.
I don't think he is outright telling us everything he knows of the 'mysteries of God'--which by definition is only open to the initiates--or everything he is. Paul does not want to discourage us or have us worshipping him by mistake.
2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. --1 Cor 12
As to being perfect, well--who are these guys?
22But ye are come ...Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
"Perfect" means "mature." So those guys were made mature, yet still seeing through a dark glass.
If one is at the throne of God, how could you say they are looking into a dark mirror?
Perfect means 'complete'--which we are in Christ, because he is complete--we are made perfect by Christ.
"made perfect"
G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
Being at the throne and SEEING the throne completely are two different things. How is it that the Light BLINDED Paul? Did you ever wonder how light can cause people to see, yet it can also BLIND and that it takes "three days" to see again? Why do you suppose Christ told the disciples that he had many things to share (which were TRUTHS) yet they could not yet bear it?
The completion is the maturity that we seek, which is why Paul said he wasn't "already perfect," but still ran the race.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,...
3And this will we do, if God permit.
Exactly. Let us GO ON to perfection. How are just men made perfect? Who are the clay made pots? How are they justified? "Whoever is dead is freed from sin." Let us therefore have a renewing of the mind daily.
Phillipians 3:8-21
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (teleioō - matured/complete): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (teleios- mature/complete) , be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless, whereto (whatever) we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
If you understand the difference in the two manifestations of the promise, the downpayment/earnest, and the redemption of the purchased possession, you will understand that verse perfectly.
We are made complete, yet NOT yet already complete.
We have attained the resurrection of the dead, yet NOT attained the resurrection of the dead and whatever we have attained we walk by the same rule.
And those of Paul's likeness, "as many as have been made perfect" be THUS minded. How minded? Those who are complete, must understand that they are not yet complete, and must press forward.
I agree that 'perfect' is more along the lines of mature, rather than without blemish or never missing the mark. Seriously, does any human being never, ever, miss the mark in any minute iota? I don't believe so, not this side of the resurrection. All things are BECOMING new. I believe Paul continued to see through the glass darkly, and that he continued to miss the mark of what he (spiritually) desired to do. I think he was maturing, and God's grace was sufficient...some describe it as "when God looks at us, He sees the blood of His Son"...what do you think of that concept? Not that we're "perfect" in terms of how we may define that in our everyday vernacular, but that the perfect grace and blood of our Savior covers us...as He is daily bringing us more into His maturity (perfection)...If perfection means anything more than maturity, then I think we could only be seen that way because God chooses to based on the sufficiency of the covering of His Son upon us.
IMO, if one were absolutely perfect, they'd never say a cross word, never have an unkind thought, etc. What I believe, is often when we think we're on top of things, others sometimes can just stand back, watch us, and shake their heads...wondering why we can't see all our own shortcomings :thinking:.
Reminds me of the old bumper sticker "Christians [believers] aren't perfect [literal sense of the word], just forgiven".
No Jab, no human being ever does.
But, we are new creations.
Born from above.
Spiritual Beings! — no longer human beings!
Even though you are in the world, you are not of it.
We need to grasp and hold on to our inheritance.
Quote from: Beloved ServantWe need to grasp and hold on to our inheritance.
:thumbsup:
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."hold that fast'G2902
κρατέω
krateōkrat-eh'-o
From G2904;
to use strength, that is,
seize or retain (literally or figuratively): - hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand
(hold) on,
obtain, retain, take (by).
Who, Molly? Could be unaware of this?
"...in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)
What do you think is the difference between holding fast and not losing a crown (written to the church in Philadelphia) and us as New Covenant believers being sealed and guaranteed our inheritance by the Holy Spirit? Wonder how these two things fit together/reconcile? They must somehow, I'm just certainly no expert on Revelation...(I'm still trying to figure out which parts/how much is literal/spiritual, future/present/past, etc. :scratchhead:)
Now there's one, Jab, YOU should explain.
It might hinge on: Who.
:mrflo: Check out the last line I added to my last post.... :Peace2:
I did.
You got me there!
Keepin' me on my toes are ya?
Sounds to me like Philadelphia already has the crown--
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 3
Maybe so, Molly. And BServ, I think you're right...who, and what...who's sealed vs. who's holding fast, and what are they holding fast to and what is sealed in them....I'm thinking at least in part it may have something to do with rewards/position (crowns/rewards) vs. salvation/inheritance of ultimate reconciliation (sealed). Not sure we can just lump it all together to mean the same thing(s).
Jab. I'm only here as a participant.
But the Lord, always, gives teachers.
Ask, and it will be given.
I ain't asking for no teachers, no sir...I've seen them come and go, and it's kind of scary what you can get :laughhand:. God will show us...He will provide for us simple ones :smile:.
Molly's right.
It's who.
JAB
There is a HOPE of glory
Find it and hold to it with every fiber of your being.
Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col. 1:27) :thumbsup:.
When my daughter was about 3, I picked her up out of the car while she was sleeping, and carried her to the front door of the house. In a sleepy little voice, she said "I don't know if I can hold on". I gently said to her, "you don't have to hold on to me. I'm holding on to you".
I remember that scripture:
Its Jabcat 1:1
I'm holding on to you.
It that's a funny little comment, thanks, it's cute. If it's sarcasm, then what do you think about the concept? Do you think it's scriptural? Do you think you have to cling to Jesus with YOUR strength or He'll let you go; or aren't you the child that has not enough strength and only the Father's love, grace, and strength is sufficient to sustain you? Even Him that enables your obedience, your faith to believe, your endurance to the end?
There's a bunch of rightly divided scripture that, IMO, says that's the case. "Jabcat 1:1" as you call it is a mere sumarization. And I think a very nice little picture of our Father's love for His children. "..nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:39)
It's truth Jab.
I will never leave you nor forsake you.
OK good. Sometimes on these boards it's hard to tell intent, when it's just writing in black and white. I'm (hopefully) learning to be careful and give the benefit of the doubt before I know for sure. Not always the best at it.
Amen, God's blessings to you.
P.S. I've tried to be good enough to save myself...for many years...and it didn't work, I failed miserably. I have to look to my Author and Finisher of my salvation :bowing:.
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2009, 06:19:13 AM
P.S. I've tried to be good enough to save myself...for many years...and it didn't work, I failed miserably. I have to look to my Author and Finisher of my salvation :bowing:.
I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself. We were talking about holding on, which I personally find pretty easy to do when you're going under for the third time--which is maybe why we should count it all joy.
Deuteronomy 4:4
But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day."cleave"H1695
דּבק
dâbêqdaw-bake'
From H1692;
adhering: - cleave,
joining, stick closer.H1692
דּבק
dâbaq
daw-bak'
A primitive root; properly to impinge, that is, cling or adhere; figuratively to catch by pursuit: - abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.
Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2009, 07:07:00 AM
I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself. We were talking about holding on....
IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified. It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.
I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2009, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2009, 07:07:00 AM
I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself. We were talking about holding on....
IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified. It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.
I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.
I keep forgetting that many here have had those experiences. so it's a bit of a mystery to me. For me, my relationship with God is so personal, I would never let another define it for me. Recently, he's been showing me that he wants me to ask him for help with even the minor details of my life, whereas I have always been reluctant to ask for anything other than the most important--and I have enough of those to keep his angels busy lol. But, when Peter says, 'Save me, Lord,' he is asking for help for what is going on in the moment--not asking for something eschatological. And, Jesus doesn't hesitate to reach out a hand for Peter to hold onto as he sinks under the water, as if he would ever answer, 'save yourself.' Our Savior is so wonderful. :HeartThrob:
Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "caught" [him]
G1949
ἐπιλαμβάνομαι
epilambanomaiep-ee-lam-ban'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1909 and G2983;
to seize (for help, injury, attainment or any other purpose; literally or figuratively): - catch, lay
hold (up-)
on, take (by, hold of, on).
Amen! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! HIS strong and mighty hand.
That's interesting, how we (many) have such different experiences. I'd be afraid to try to number the percentage of what I've needed to unlearn and relearn in my walk with Yesu. Religion is a powerful teacher and shaper. Then the Potter takes over...Glory to His name!
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2009, 05:00:08 PM
Amen! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! HIS strong and mighty hand.
That's interesting, how we (many) have such different experiences. I'd be afraid to try to number the percentage of what I've needed to unlearn and relearn in my walk with Yesu. Religion is a powerful teacher and shaper. Then the Potter takes over...Glory to His name!
PS I loved that story you shared about your daughter. You used it to illustrate that you will hold onto her, even if she cannot hold on to you--but I saw that she knows that you are THE MAN to cleave to because you are trustworthy and love her, and that will always serve her well as she grows up. You are illustrating Christ to her in real time.
Thank you, that's touching. God's blessings to you.
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2009, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2009, 07:07:00 AM
I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself. We were talking about holding on....
IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified. It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.
I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.
This is completely right. The bible says "work out (ie outwardly work) your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who both wills and works of his good pleasure." In all things, it is not us who are running, but Christ in us. Paul used a phrase multiple times that we also do well to remember: "I yet not I." He did that to show that outwardly it looked like Paul was doing the works. But in reality, he was resting from his own works, and the invisible hand of God was doing the works through him, in which Paul rested.
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:27:54 PM
If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing. I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.
Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life. Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life. Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.
HI Jabcat, I started the topic about it. Here it is. Come join me in conversation: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6385.0