hi! :smile: :hiya:
this is part of that touchy topic concerning 'trinity'.. I'm trying to think how it relates to UR.. except everything relates to UR, especially the nature (and character) of God..
This morning I had a thought running through my head "is the wind air?" (because the Greek which "spirit" was translated from is "pneuma" - air, breath.. then the 1st scripture I read today was "awake O north wind and blow on my garden of spices" - which of course is a romantic way of saying Holy Spirit sweep upon your people.. your person(s)
So I guess that got me thinking about this issue, the trinity..
I don't mention often what I really think! (Is the root of the matter.)
God, to me, is the root of all things. It's my belief "in the beginning God.." alone. I believe there was a point when there was only ONE. When there was only God, the Father, Creator, Sustainer. Pure un-indifferentiated God, the only thing, substance, essence. Therefor everything is made of Him, and He of course (in that case) is life itself, the life force. To me when He breathed life into Adam, He breathed Himself into Adam.
But long.. long.. before that, proceeding straight out from Him, was the Son.. like some root part of God had sprung forth..
...that sort of implies Jesus had a beginning.. boy oh boy I could be burned at the stake for that one! (In its day that is:)
The Son is so close to the Father.. He is the Only Begotten One of God.. there will never be, imo, another quite like Him. We will be like Him (yippeee!!! praise God!!!:))) But there will never be another "only begotten Son of God"...
this all, is the sense I get in my walk with God, concerning trinity.
And also, to me, the "pure pneuma" is that pure essence between Father and Son.. represented by the Tree of Life.. and the fiery sword separates carnal/self-ish man(kind) from it.
That's it.. I've come clean on that!
hope everyone has a good morning and day! (my a.m's are usually a little crazy.. I think my grand daughter is waking up with a very sore leg from a shot yesterday..
blessings..!
I hope this maybe of some help, at least it has for me. Praise His Name.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning
Beginning...H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Principal thing....H7225 rê'shı̂yth (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
As you say the Son is out of the Father, the Son is the "beginning." Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Just who was that speaking in Gen. 1:3? I believe it was Jesus Christ the Son. ALL was created in Him and His energy/power the Spirit moved and then Jesus spoke.
Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Hey, Marie....my pov is very like yours.......part of God Himself is in His creation..and His creatures.....
..amen, Micah, I don't see anything in any of that which I disagree with.. of course that's the good thing about scripture! :thumbsup: :smile:
Quote from: sheila on June 14, 2013, 05:07:42 PM
Hey, Marie....my pov is very like yours.......part of God Himself is in His creation..and His creatures.....
amen! I love that! :dsunny:
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Marie, this just keeps resounding in my mind: "is the wind air?"
The wind is made of air, but the wind is not made by the air - wind is made by a force unseen, acting on the air. We may gauge its direction and force, but we have no idea where it originated, or how far downwind it will blow. It may ripple a field of grass, making beautiful patterns, or it may kick up a dust storm, causing traffic accidents and dust pneumonia. It is beyond us.
This all ties in with a poem I wrote, which says in part: ripples are made of water, but ripples are not made by the water - ripples, as tears, are made by the Touch.
All this makes me think of the Visible World being touched by the Invisible World, and how little we apprehend it. Further, I think about what modern Physics has found out - that our solid, material world is almost entirely empty space, in the end our substantial world is very insubstantial. Surely the "Spirit/Invisible" realms are the real reality, and we are just an image, as Genesis implies...
GLORY! GLORY! HALLELUJAH!
"All this makes me think of the Visible World being touched by the Invisible World, and how little we apprehend it. Further, I think about what modern Physics has found out - that our solid, material world is almost entirely empty space, in the end our substantial world is very insubstantial. Surely the "Spirit/Invisible" realms are the real reality, and we are just an image, as Genesis implies..."
:dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
amen..
I agree.. but think our heavenly Father is creating a physical universe, one which will be filled with Him and Love(HE) will be the ruling force.. a beautiful thing.. I believe the Lion will quite literally eat straw like the ox, and we will see also literally, the bear grazing with the cow. (Is 11:7)
I'm certainly not saying the Spiritual, or metaphysical doesn't exist or won't exist.. I just don't see the material creation and universe as a sort of mistake.. or a lesser than.. That, I think of as a gnostic thought, not that I know this, as what some may think..
I believe there was a literal beginning of the universe, was an Eden, an Adam and Eve.. a Tower Babel, which now is filling the world (going global as they say) and believe said tower of man (w/o God acknowledged) will literally crash with a resounding crash, the culmination of human history, proving for all eternity, that to differ from God's will in any teeny tiny way can only ever end in a self destructive (little) puff of smoke.. We thus learning good from evil, which is - Life from nonlife.
Perhaps this is the point and afterwards all will be spirit w/o matter, but I think the universe and all its creatures and one day planets (alive) to be a glorious thing, and would be too bad to scrap it. And simply float around with harps.. :laughing7: (no offense intended please)
Ironclad proof = the "smoke of which will rise up for ever and ever" and in this case for eternity :winkgrin: .. the smoke being the memory of said resounding crash.. proving to aLL, all that He is proving.. (His Perfect intent.)
hi! :smile: :hiya:
...and don't forget what's prophesied "a new heavens and a new Earth" ("wherein righteousness is to dwell") also "we will be given a new body" and Jesus after death, burial and resurrection, ate.. and told Thomas "touch my wounds.."
..and another time after resurrection told the disciples "see I am no ghost, handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see I have" (Lk 24:39)
:icon_jokercolor: :girlheart:
"Trinity" is not in the Bible. And for good reason, it's just little more than a guess, same as the idea of purgatory.
Not sure how I really feel about the trinity. Obviously I accepted it as fact all my life due to being raised Catholic. Even when I found this site, it took a while for me to realize the possibility of the trinity being false. I watched a Martin Zender video, and that guy is vehemently opposed to the trinity, and I started to research a little bit. At this point I can see both sides, but there are certainly good arguments against it.
I went to google "Martin Zender" and some of the suggestions as I was typing were, Martin Zender heretic, Martin Zender false teacher, Martin Zender goes to hell... I just found that interesting! Or, I have a weird sense of humor?
I'm (curious, so i'm) off to read or listen to him..
I watched a video of his about "trinity". You're right he's vehement! He basically is right though! I'll probably see if I can find other topics to watch.. i think he's right, untruth is subtle! wraps itself around truth, stifling it, and i think any untruth can dilute the power of the good news of the cross to save.
I never get into Trinity debates mainly because I'm not sure how relevant it is to my walk with Christ. But, I do wonder...if the Trinity isn't true...are Christians polytheists?
Marie, I think your view is as close to the real deal as we can get on this side of the veil.
Shawn, IMO most Christians don't really know the tenets of the Orthodox Trinity doctrine and very few have taken the time to study it or the alternatives.
Personally I do not think that Trinitarians are automatically polytheists, it is just a deficient way of explaining a difficult subject. I do think it came into being as an appeal to the Greeks and Romans, who of course were polytheists. Now I think it is just anther doctrine people are afraid to question because they do not want to be excluded or called "heretic"- sorta just like ET/UR.
I still haven't had time to listen to more talks of Martin Zender, but I bookmarked his site..
I came across this tho, that relates to, imo, what he said on his trinity video, that, iho :laughing7: if one (truly) believes Jesus is the Father, they can't believe Jesus really "died" or if 'Jesus was the Father, He could not have died':
Galatians 1:1 (KJV) "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)"
Reinforces, "Jesus died"
....("and rose again"!) ["Christ crucified.. "I will know nothing but Christ crucified" the cross of Christ (i read in posts on here the other day/week and has kept coming to mind)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 21, 2013, 10:10:14 PM
....Now I think it is just anther doctrine people are afraid to question because they do not want to be excluded or called "heretic"- sorta just like ET/UR.
:thumbsup: amen! :iagree:
I used to wonder why the Jews thought it was illegal or blasphemous to say God's name.
In a weird way it makes sense.
The ideas, or thoughts that pop in to a person's mind when we say or hear the word God.
Are in reality, so belittling of who and what he is .
Which leads to the notion that a human brain could have even the slightest comprehension of him.
He is spirit and is worshiped in spirit .
I don't think it is left up to us .
God is a small word meaning a big thing. It is meant to be a sacred word. If we truly love and reverence God then when we refer to a sacred word or Name which represents Him, we will do it in spirit. When someone blasphemes out of his mouth, it is a different spirit that speaks out of the mouth so beware!
Regardless of how long in eternity we have existed, we will never know God in His entirety.
Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts[d] of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts[e] of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.[f] 14 But the unbeliever[g] does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated[h] spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated[j] by anyone. 16 For
who has known the Lord's mind,
that he may instruct Him?[k]
But we have the mind of Christ.
Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, because you were not yet ready for it. In fact, you are still not ready, 3 because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife[a] among you, are you not fleshly and living like unbelievers? 4 For whenever someone says, "I'm with Paul," and another, "I'm with Apollos," are you not unspiritual people?[c][d]
All of us have been children at one time.
If I could be so bold as to boast
I think I am maturing and finding it harder and harder to find any thing that keeps me separated by label or description :
last one left is old and new.
God......is a title. dagon was a god.....baal was a god....ashtaroth was a god. Jehovah is our God. There are many gods, but there is only one Lord our God. The word god out side of recognizing who our Lord God is just twists me inside. So I vented. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
When I see people write 'god' when referring to the God whom I know to be Love, it is like being smacked across the cheek. But of course Jesus' perfect wisdom covers this by teaching to offer the other cheek also. After all, it could have been a mistake. I cannot thank the Master Christ enough for the protection of His Teaching.
It is because I know how deeply even little things go that I do try not to upset people and their deeply held beliefs, and attempting to say something different - which invariably happens - is not always easy and if I upset people I sometimes feel their pain too because I know the love of Jesus is in their heart!
I truly believe that when we are in the "Land of Promise" after our own "anastasis", then differences of opinion will seem so trivial that it will be a surprise that something as little as a difference of opinion could have caused such powerful barriers.
I would like to offer some thought if I may.
We use sacred words: Christ, God, Jehovah or their Greek or other language equivalent, and yet when the Divinity that these sacred words represent are referred to in the tongues of angels then it is in none of the humanly-spoken ways as the tongues of angels are referenced in a way that indicates they differ from the human tongue.
As there are arch angels, it means that there are angels who are not arch angels, in the same way as there are angels who kept their own proper habitation and some that did not, and there are some who always behold the Face of the Father which would indicate that some do not always behold the Face of the Father.
So it stands to reason that even the tongues of angels may also have different forms of manifestation depending on habitation and status. In which case we can consider that He whom we call GOD in human language can also be referred to in a different dimension by a different form of reference.
All of these forms of reference are sacred and they are spirit when spoken in reverence and love.
Of what "As there are arch angels....." do you speak? I only know of One.
Dear Micah, treat the point as you say