I am now an Unitarian Universalist

[B_T]

Hello,

I haven't posted here for years, but much things changed for me. And I'd like you to know what.

Christian Universalism was a very welcoming thing in my life and I consider it to be one of my greatest periods of spiritual growth. This was the time I discovered that there's no hell. One of the happiest periods in my life.

Still, I continued to deal with many problems of theism. One of them was the problem of Evil. Yes - Christian Universalism could explain the problem of hell. But it couldn't explain the problem of evil.

And I simply couldn't love Jesus. I couldn't love a person who says: "Whoever is not with me is against me". I couldn't love the cruel and vindictive Old Testament God. And I couldn't believe in literal creation.

The only thing I had to do was to step out of Classical Christianity. Even as a Christian Universalist I rejected the Revelation of John with my whole heart. Then I started questioning the Bible as a whole. I rejected many quotes that disturbed me.

You see, instead of trying to live with "Bible Threatenings Explained", I have just started to live a life without threatenings.

I've found out that I've already accepted a new and progressive faith. I refused to accept it for some time, but to refuse such thing would mean to go against the desire of my heart... I wanted desparately a faith that proclaims love and dignity of every person (The inherent worth and dignity of every person), that accepts my own path of walking with God instead of accepting another path I am unwilling to take ( A free and responsible search for truth and meaning )...

[Miriam]

I'd be really interested to hear more about what you believe - for example, what's the place of the cross, and who actually was Jesus? - though I guess it might take us into things like the Trinity and the authority of scripture and other discussions that aren't encouraged here...  :sigh:

[B_T]

Don't worry - I think that the question of Trinity isn't central and this is not what I'm interested in, frankly. Unitarians are famous for accepting all forms of beliefs - even if you're Christian or an atheists.

[Miriam]

How do Unitarians explain the problem of evil?

[B_T]

Most of them have their own spiritual paths and spiritual explainations. Most of them are very positive people and just believe it's part of life...

[urpilgrim]

How do Unitarians explain the problem of evil?

Good question Miriam  :thumbsup:

I have seen this question or statement come up alot lately on different forums that I visit and it blows my mind. I believe that Christianity and specially Universalism explains and deals with the problem of evil the best of all world religions or philosophies. In the scriptures Father has revealed to us His loving purposes for His creation, both here on earth and in the heavenly realm.

In His loving grace from the beginning He put limits on how long we could live so that we need not have this state for ever. He would  do what I like to term several "Rebots" (the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, pagan nations, several individuals) when evil would get too crazy. Knowing that in the end of time He was going to raise all those people and make things right. Then He completed His plan to redeem, ransom and destroy the works of evil by the cross so that in the end He will be glorified as ALL IN ALL.

We need to stop being just focused on the here and now and see the mega picture that is going on. That He is in control and that ALL will be reconciled and made right. So that the possibility of evil in the future state of His creation will not be there.

All other views IMO give us only hopelessness and dispair.

Sorry, just my :2c:

Grace and peace

[shawn]

How do Unitarians explain the problem of evil?

Good question Miriam  :thumbsup:

I have seen this question or statement come up alot lately on different forums that I visit and it blows my mind. I believe that Christianity and specially Universalism explains and deals with the problem of evil the best of all world religions or philosophies. In the scriptures Father has revealed to us His loving purposes for His creation, both here on earth and in the heavenly realm.

In His loving grace from the beginning He put limits on how long we could live so that we need not have this state for ever. He would  do what I like to term several "Rebots" (the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, pagan nations, several individuals) when evil would get too crazy. Knowing that in the end of time He was going to raise all those people and make things right. Then He completed His plan to redeem, ransom and destroy the works of evil by the cross so that in the end He will be glorified as ALL IN ALL.

We need to stop being just focused on the here and now and see the mega picture that is going on. That He is in control and that ALL will be reconciled and made right. So that the possibility of evil in the future state of His creation will not be there.

All other views IMO give us only hopelessness and dispair.

Sorry, just my :2c:

Grace and peace

Amen!  Very good post.

[thinktank]

You know last night I had an amazing revelation. I don't think it's coincidence that you posted here today, talking about the problem of evil. Maybe I should post it on this forum.


But in any case I hope your faith in Jesus goes well and grow in love with God.

[jabcat]

Yes, good questions...the cross, Jesus the only way to the Father, God working all things for good to those who love Him (and all eventually will). 

The Lake of Fire will be a blessed remedy... "the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."  I Corinthians 5:5

and this;  "at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow."   Phil. 2:10

None will be lost.  Praise be to God.

[micah7:9]

Yes, good questions...the cross, Jesus the only way to the Father, God working all things for good to those who love Him (and all eventually will). 

The Lake of Fire will be a blessed remedy... "the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."  I Corinthians 5:5

and this;  "at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow."   Phil. 2:10

None will be lost.  Praise be to God.

:bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[Nancy]

Hi there B T and everyone,

I know where you are coming from as my faith no longer believes that only if you believe in Jesus will you be with God. 

I don't believe that when Jesus said, people can only come to the Father only through me, He meant it the way it has been translated.  I believe He was saying that by His example, living the way He lived and believe in what He believed, will you go to the Father.  I believe that you be can be from another faith but be more 'christian' by the way you live then someone who says that they are a christian.
And i also find it hard to believe that Jesus had to die to appease God.  Jesus died because all men who challenge the status quo usually do die at the hands of blinded men. 
This may sound shocking but i don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God but like us all, sons of God.

Well thanks for letting us know about your faith, it is comforting to know that i am not the only one questiioning.

Godbless
Nancy

[jabcat]

* * I see a guest viewing this topic.  For those of you unfamiliar with this board and may be just passing through, most here believe Jesus is the only way to the Father;  that "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved" is scripture to believe;  that (mostly) groups like Unitarian Universalists that believe "all roads lead to God, it doesn't matter what you believe", are not groups that teach true Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation;  and that TM Ministries is not associated with any such beliefs or organizations.

We just allow folks (within reasonable/forum guidelines) to be able to express their thoughts - mainly to treat everyone respectfully, and in hopes that they will have some input from others that will help them see the truth of the Gospel - Jesus, Savior of the World - and that trusting in Him as the Savior is the only way to the Father.

Thanks, be touched and drawn closer to the Savior as your read through the forum.  James.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/explanation_universalism_2690.msg27182.html#msg27182

[redhotmagma]

How do Unitarians explain the problem of evil?

Good question Miriam  :thumbsup:

I have seen this question or statement come up alot lately on different forums that I visit and it blows my mind. I believe that Christianity and specially Universalism explains and deals with the problem of evil the best of all world religions or philosophies. In the scriptures Father has revealed to us His loving purposes for His creation, both here on earth and in the heavenly realm.

In His loving grace from the beginning He put limits on how long we could live so that we need not have this state for ever. He would  do what I like to term several "Rebots" (the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, pagan nations, several individuals) when evil would get too crazy. Knowing that in the end of time He was going to raise all those people and make things right. Then He completed His plan to redeem, ransom and destroy the works of evil by the cross so that in the end He will be glorified as ALL IN ALL.

We need to stop being just focused on the here and now and see the mega picture that is going on. That He is in control and that ALL will be reconciled and made right. So that the possibility of evil in the future state of His creation will not be there.

All other views IMO give us only hopelessness and dispair.

Sorry, just my :2c:

Grace and peace

:thumbsup:
I totally agree, the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, and we were subjected to futility not willingly but because of Him who subjected it in hope that the creation would be set free, all in all

[thinktank]

* * I see a guest viewing this topic.  For those of you unfamiliar with this board and may be just passing through, most here believe Jesus is the only way to the Father;  that "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved" is scripture to believe;  that (mostly) groups like Unitarian Universalists that believe "all roads lead to God, it doesn't matter what you believe", are not groups that teach true Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation;  and that TM Ministries is not associated with any such beliefs or organizations.

We just allow folks (within reasonable/forum guidelines) to be able to express their thoughts - mainly to treat everyone respectfully, and in hopes that they will have some input from others that will help them see the truth of the Gospel - Jesus, Savior of the World - and that trusting in Him as the Savior is the only way to the Father.

Thanks, be touched and drawn closer to the Savior as your read through the forum.  James.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/explanation_universalism_2690.msg27182.html#msg27182

It seems to be that there are many 'secret' unitarians on this forum. I think that perhaps they would be deemed more of as unitarians than universal reconcillationists.

[WhiteWings]

Really? I know none. I know some people doubt things.


I see James is worried UR gets confused with Unitarians. Those that attack UR use that argument very often. The post of B_T won't change that. Seekers with just one brain cell will see Jesus is a hot topic on this forum and so is very much part or the forum message.
If B_T's posts turns us into a Unitarian forum then why didn't the ETs posting here turned us in a ET forum?
Blind attackers are just that blind. I'm sure that >95% of the lurkers see Jesus rules this forum. Even if they very much disagree with our conclusions.


B_T I wish you well. Obviously I think you stepped of the narrow road. But imo you still are on a much more truthfull road than the ETs.
Unitarians are right all roads lead to heaven. They just overlook all those roads ultimately lead trough Jesus. For ETs 1 road leads trough Jesus and many roads lead trough satan.
Be well space buddy :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Yeah but, there are some key differences. But what I mean is that some universal reconcilliasts here think that all mankind will be saved, regardless of whether they believe in Jesus or not. Now the classic universal position is that those who do not beleive now , will have to go through some punishment or purification in the lake of fire, that will be painful in some shape or form to their spirit. In other words there is price to be paid for living a life of sin, their life will be built on sand, and it will collapse in Gods new rightoeus kingdom.

But some here think there is no price to be paid. So I am wondering there is not much difference between their beliefs and a unitarian, because regardless of what one believes in and how one behaves, all go to heaven without penalty or suffering.
Isn't this similar to an unitarian or even the same?

[WhiteWings]

Yeah but, there are some key differences. But what I mean is that some universal reconcilliasts here think that all mankind will be saved, regardless of whether they believe in Jesus or not.

I think that's true. BUT that's only part of the picture.
Before the saving proces is completed all believe in Jesus and His role in salvation.
The key here is when the not believing stops. Today. After death? Never? Imo "never" is the only wrong answer.

In other words there is price to be paid for living a life of sin,

God shall not be mocked. God doesn't overlook sin.

But some here think there is no price to be paid.

I think none of the frequent posters hold that view. Of course I have no idea what the lurkers believe.

So I am wondering there is not much difference between their beliefs and a unitarian, because regardless of what one believes in and how one behaves, all go to heaven without penalty or suffering.
Isn't this similar to an unitarian or even the same?

Maybe some UR people see it that way. But there still is another main difference between UR and Unitrarians. For UR Jesus is the center. For unitrarians Jesus is just someone.
:2c:

[jabcat]

This is good discussion guys.  I personally believe there will be pain involved, though I believe it will be spiritual/emotional/mental, not a physical torture from a literal burning fire. 

How long that lasts, I really don't know.  I'm intrigued by the concept you've brought up WW, about the Jewish belief of the longest period of punishment (age) being 1 year - with variations in between.  I also believe the point is to break the stubborn will, convict, bring a person to the place of repentance, to where they'll finally bow and confess Jesus is Lord.  That can be painful.  In my own thoughts, that may take one person one second, while another several months or more.  Not sure.  On another note, some experience the "pain" of conviction of the Holy Spirit in this life, are given the faith to respond, and will not be hurt in the next age (although works not of God will be judged and "burned" away). 

I also wonder if the source of that "torment" [basanismo] (sp?) or "testing for purity, as with a touchstone", will be the direct Presence of God - which no man has experienced as of yet, as we would not live through it in these mortal bodies.

Anway, some of my thoughts, to again, an interesting discussion.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

J. Preston Eby writes;

Suppose a few filthy, vile men and a few immoral women from some house of prostitution were forced to sit in the midst of a large congregation of singing, shouting, worshipping saints. This certainly would he torment to most of them. They would be tortured in the flames of the blazing glory of God in that place! If they were not held in their seats by force, most of them would rush out of there. I have been in meetings where I witnessed three responses to the glorious manifestation of the Lord's presence. First, the saints who loved the Lord rejoiced and adoringly worshipped. Some who were not Christians, but whose hearts were tender toward the Lord, came under deep conviction and, weeping and broken, gave themselves into the loving hands of Jesus. But others, filled with self, haters of righteousness, I have seen jump up and literally run out of a meeting - TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB! Sure, they would rush, even run to get away from the convicting power of the Holy Ghost! I have seen it, and so have you.

To the unsaved, HIS GLORY is a LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire! In ages yet unborn God shall expose ALL MEN to the sweet abiding presence of the Lamb. They will come under such severe processings, under such profound conviction that they will be tormented and have no rest day or night until they finally yield. And when they do, many fountains of tears will flow with weeping, praying, and calling upon the Lord.

I believe it!

[WhiteWings]

I'm intrigued by the concept you've brought up WW, about the Jewish belief of the longest period of punishment (age) being 1 year - with variations in between.

In that case get actively involved here I think the answer is somewhere in that thread/concept.

[fullarmor2]

Still, I continued to deal with many problems of theism. One of them was the problem of Evil. Yes - Christian Universalism could explain the problem of hell. But it couldn't explain the problem of evil.

And I simply couldn't love Jesus. I couldn't love a person who says: "Whoever is not with me is against me". I couldn't love the cruel and vindictive Old Testament God. And I couldn't believe in literal creation.

   I here you about  the problem of evil. That is tough.   But for me the answer was to accept the fact that it is our Father's will that we have this temporary experience down here in good and evil.  And I just trust our Father.  And our Father is our comforter through it all also.  There is something powerful in faith in God our Father in suffering.  I mean look at the passionate praying that Jesus experienced at Gethsemane!  This was not a negative experience!  Jesus experienced perhaps his best prayer time when he was about to go through the sufferings.  By trusting and accepting Father's will.  Then we can say with Paul, "we rejoice in sufferings"!    Paul also said " I glory in infirmities".    Paul was able, by grace I think,  to have faith even in the face of terrible evil.
    As for Jesus' words, "whoever is not with me is against me",  I think you are reading too much in to that.  Jesus loves people!  After all,  he is in the process of saving all!
    As for God in the Old Testament,  that was NOT God revealing himself. Actually, God was keeping hidden.    God was doing a religious legal thing back then.  God didn't reveal who he truely is until Jesus.  I think part of the reason God stayed hidden behind his acting like a very legally strict overlord,  was so that when Jesus did finally come into the World,  he would not be recognized by Israel so God's plan could unfold.  So, God in the Old Testament showed us that he happens to be a pretty good acter also. lol    :happy3: