I'm leaving, thank you for the opporunity to be here.

[guest6024]

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of the forums.  :dsunny:

I have enjoyed being here but I will be leaving the forums today.  :declare:

Some may want an explanation... :Chinscratch: Some won't care...  :dontknow: (and why should they)... But I feel I owe an explanation so that I'm not leaving with lots of unanswered questions as I have got to know a few people on here and I do care for them.   :HeartThrob:

Well...

I'm not a believer...Plain and simple. 
First of all I wasn't born with a bible in my hand and don't believe the bible is necessary to know God.  I do not believe the bible (as we know it) comes from God but from men like every other religion.  I've heard plenty men talk but I haven't heard God talk aside from the miracles i've seen in my own life... Perhaps God does talk through men sometimes...But all 'bible talks' bring me is confusion and misery as men bicker with one-another over their beliefs and interpretation of what they have just read in the bible whereas someone talking about love and helping people (like a nurse or something) fills me with joy and hope.  I'd rather be out doing some good in the world than sitting reading dusty old books.

I do not believe and cannot make myself believe that a man (Jesus) whom I don't know died on the cross at the witness of people I don't know 2000 years ago...I just cannot!  I also cannot see how a God (who can do anything) (who makes ALL the rules and has TOTAL free will)... requires a sacrifice.

I do not see how someone can pay 'my fine' on my behelf for MY sins.  If I am guilty of a crime I should be the one punished as that is justice.

Also I do not see how I can be punished anyway when I apparently have no 'free will' of my own!  (How can a 'robot' which has been pre-programmed by someone else 'sin'?)

Nor do I believe in sin the way Christians do.  For example I believe that bad is required to know good and up is required to know down and left to know right and sad to know happy and hate to know love etc etc.  I believe that had we been born in paradise we would not have known we were in paradise without a little 'hell' in there to make us know and appreciate where we were.

And...Many other reasons which I won't get into as I don't think it's really important.

My 'God' has been love...All through my life...And I've had miracles to back it up...  I thought I'd look into Christianity again due to my grandad seeing Jesus before he died...But even that isn't biblical (the dead know nowt)...And i've since watched videos of NDE'S where people have said things like "I saw Jesus...Well...It might have been Jesus I'm not really sure...It was a spiritual figure"...  So....  :dontknow:

Do I think I am right in my thinking/beliefs?  -  Obviously or I wouldn't be leaving.  At the same time anyone can be wrong...It's not impossible! (what is!?).

The Unitarians have an understanding more appealing to me and I'm going to be joining them and see what comes of it as there is a spiritual side to me which I must nourish...
"Unitarian Universalists have many ways of naming what is sacred. Some believe in a God; some don't believe in a God. Some believe in a sacred force at work in the world, and call it "love," "mystery," "source of all" or "spirit of life." We are thousands of individuals of all ages, each influenced by our cultures and life experiences to understand "the ground of our being" in our own way. Unitarian Universalists are agnostic, theist, atheist, and everything in between. "
...That just sounds more 'up my street' as it were...For (perceived) wrong or right...I have to go where my heart leads me...

I love everyone...Not just Christians...I love Muslims and I accept them 'right where they are' whatever they believe and Hindus and whatever...  Even 'ET' believers...I can see where they are coming from at times...They have been brainwashed...It's not their fault...They are scared and want love and one thing leads to another and most people don't know their bum from their elbow and a lot in churches do a lot more good than I've ever done like helping out charities and food banks and visiting the sick etc...Who am i to judge anyone...A lot of the time the confusion and hurt is because of religious books and people cracking up trying to make sense of them...Contradictions forever spinning around in a persons' head...Then you have to believe in demons and ... Well...

I'll be guided by my heart which I've had to trust in when EVERY person in my life has let me down TIME AND TIME AGAIN...including Christians.

I honestly feel better and more free already.
I don't need a bible to tell me it's wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, etc...That's already inside me.   Endorsing slavery, murder, misogyny, rape, and racism etc isn't.

Anyway...
My very best to all of you!
Thank you for the opportunity and ... Well I'll see you all again some day.  :HeartThrob:

I'll hang about for a bit just to say bye to some folk in messages etc.

[GodIsLove]

Hey! I'll be sad to see you go!

PM me your email if you want to keep in touch to discuss some things that I didn't get a chance to share.

[guest6024]

Hey! I'll be sad to see you go!

PM me your email if you want to keep in touch to discuss some things that I didn't get a chance to share.

I'm not going to leave right away, so feel free to message me here.  I won't be speaking on the forums anymore though as it wouldn't be right (with me not having faith like you all do).

:HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

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[guest6024]

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Had to shink this down to see what it was lol!  Goodbye, nice to meet you!   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I'm very surprised, as you spoke like a believer, and bible based or so I thought.. you don't have alternate personalities do you? ..strange.. but.. all the best..

1 Tim 4:10 - "God is the savior of all"

[guest6024]

I'm very surprised, as you spoke like a believer, and bible based or so I thought.. you don't have alternate personalities do you? ..strange.. but.. all the best..

1 Tim 4:10 - "God is the savior of all"

Christian Universalism is the closest thing I've ever found to what I believe so far...But it still isn't close enough...Our main similarity of course is believeing (knowing) that God is love and doesn't torture His own creation forever in a big fire.

Marie I could have been born in another country at another time and never heard of Jesus...
...Whatever (I have) It's inside me and that's what I follow...Not a book...  All this reading and studying drives me mad and much of what is in the bible conflicts with what's inside me...
If God wants to guide me I'm sure He will (and does).  Just remember that none of the disciples or apostles carried a Concordant around and for centuries (even right after the time of Jesus) people debated whether Christ had 'risen'.  I have no proof of it and so I'd be a liar if I promoted it.  I can have faith that Bob down the road is a rapist but I'm not going to go around proclaiming it because I don't know the truth...and Jesus demands a heck of a lot of faith from me...Feeding 5000, turning water into wine, rising from death... 

...I'm afraid for me to ever believe the Jesus part of the whole thing God himself would have to show me. 
But the way I see it...Jesus was a man.  God is God.  I trust God not man...
There is no evidence to say that Jesus spoke the words he is said to have spoke.
I love mankind...But I wouldn't trust anyone as far as I could throw them...Not even myself - with such an important matter.

If God wants me to know - I'll know.  My trust is in Him (which I believe is love). 

:HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

:gsmile: I have been studying the bible for almost 40 years.. after about 20 years, my son asked me two questions "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm" - a cynic is a frustrated idealist :smile:

I answered him but was not fully satisfied with my answers so I prayed for better ones.. and, wow.. I had been a happy and joy filled believer before, and believed in the likelihood that all would be saved from death (and its cause, imperfection), but wow, the answers God sent knocked my socks off and they are still knocked off, which is a real good thing as I'm not altogether sure my feet touch the ground anymore. This is the fruit of knowing the truth. :cloud9: :cloud9: :gimmefive:

Truth is so incredibly simple. Short version, we're no an ant farm; thinking ability includes being able to make choices. Does God however choose who comes to the faith during this lifetime? yep. A lucky toss of the heavenly dice.. simply because in His truth proving drama - of letting choices run their course, i.e. this world and life as we presently know it - such a truth proving drama needs more than one character!

All those not believing before death, will come to believe, i strongly believe, during Judgment 'Day'/age, which I believe will last 500 years (see the menorah image in my signature).

After all! If I was to die "still in my sins"/imperfection,flaws.. then i would rise - be "resurrected" still in my sins/imperfect (the greek originally written means "missing the mark").

So.. if all, not yet saved, rise from their grave, having been dead/noT alive, and then live through and witness, what surely must be a very long 'day' of the review of all history, etc.. well, after all that, who's not going to "believe"?!? -  which is what it takes to have ones name written in the book of life, or i.e. what it takes to be saved/redeemed/ransomed from death/non-life.

See, since God is life and perfection, imperfection is the opposite of life. But the only way to avoid life and the world as is -- No thinking ability.. no rational creatures. Ever?

I like to ask folks "how would you go about creating an un-breakable paradise perfection?"

It's all so simple.. but you are right.. ppl make it ever so complicated.. i LOVE my bible - I focus on the New Testament.. as the old is yesteryear.. though I know it pretty well.. it's the New Testament/Testimony that pertains to all, and it's such a very slim volume.. Why not simply read it for yourself? I follow my own schedule which I call "enter the story reading schedule".

I blended the four gospels/testimonies into 2 six month readings.. the "Acts" of the first church(es) and the letters written by and to them in the order believed written.

My reading schedule - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html -  :cloud9:

My Blogs - https://innermonastery.wordpress.com - What is Life?
                https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/ - monastic mumblings - listening to God in the silence
                https://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/ - Have We Lost Some Of The Gospel Message?
                https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/ - Bible Prophecy For Today

:Peace2: :friendstu: All the best always..

[GodIsLove]

Hi Marc
I just wanted to share that to fall under the umbrella of "Christian" is a diverse thing. I consider myself a Christian but I've had an interesting path. I was raised Catholic, decided it wasn't for me, but still like you was a seeker. I did a variety of things to find truth: I did drugs and hallucinogens, I pursued "New Age" stuff, I looked into Buddhism, chakras, 2012, Hinduism, I read Deepak Chopra. Then one of my clients who was a "Born again" Christian started to talk my ear off and I mostly just thought she was a crazy bible thumper but slowly I became interested in what she was saying. One night she told me about inviting God into my heart and it seems so corny but the personal feeling of the God of the universe being accessible within left me feeling changed, I cried the whole way home. I felt different. And I wanted to suddenly read the Bible.

I have since been to a few churches but like you I don't stick around because what they preach isn't what I feel inside of me. I don't believe that I had to invite God unto my heart I believe God is already there but we need a catalyst to access or realize this.

I felt like maybe I was now "Christian" because I felt this connection to God and the Bible so I began to call myself this. But then I ran into people whose Christianity wasn't what I experienced or believed. Still to this day I don't really have anyone who is totally kindred to what I believe.

These other Christians would talk about how this or that is a sin, they would talk about who was and wasn't saved, and about hell. Until this point I hadn't given all this much thought. So then I began to be afraid. I had a period of time where I was anxiety ridden and fearful. I prayed to God and asked him to show me the answer, if there is a hell or not. And I then opened the Bible app to read for the night and saw the "Every knee shall now..." scripture which I believe was my answer, that there is no hell.

I then joined Tentmaker and they have been a source of learning and fellowship but like I said we are a diverse group.

I have said that I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I don't think anyone or anything on earth was or is without error, but I think God uses imperfect vessels all of the time for his use. I think imperfect is actually beautiful.

I do think God is in the pages of the Bible but I also think it's evident that man's hand has written it. I think the Old Testament is mysterious and it is also man trying to understand and explain the divine with their own limited experience. Those books are OLD. It's men trying to explain spiritual things but language is often limited. I think genesis is mysterious as well, and I don't think much of the Bible should be taken literally like fundamentalists but it still contains truths I have yet to find elsewhere.. I think there are books that were left out, books that were edited with an agenda, and things that show the writers' culture, bias, and beliefs. Man is imperfect so I believe the Bible is imperfect because we are the ones writing, translating, editing and interpreting it, hence  imperfection seeping in.

But I still find God in the pages. I think all of the teachings about forgiveness and not judging and giving freely to each other and loving are better than any other sacred text I've read and I read a lot.

I think there are kernels of truth in all beliefs but once I heard someone say all other religions are man seeking God but Christianity is God seeking man.

I believe Jesus was sent to teach us a better way. Forgiveness instead of an eye for an eye. I don't know what exactly to believe about Jesus because even within Christianity there is no consensus. Was he a being sent by God, was he someone who was one with God and we can attain that too, was he actually God incarnate? I think it's a bit of all of those.

I don't believe Jesus died to appease an angry God or for a substitute atonement for our sins.

I think he died for many reasons: because he was a revolutionary and people wanted him dead, to show us that there is nothing to fear after death because he rose and showed himself to others, to send God's spirit—the comforter or Holy Spirit— to us individually, which he says will happen after his death, and to show what true pacifism and forgiveness is: he didn't fight back and he said "Father forgive them they know not what they are doing" as they were torturing him to death. he was showing God's character of love and forgiveness even in the face of evil.

I don't think we have to believe a certain dogma or doctrine. I think God love us all and is working in our lives. I think we may have pre existed and this earthly life is for learning multpile lessons.

I don't even call myself "saved." I'm clearly not perfect and I don't think I'm special. Whatever happens I'm living out my life how it makes sense to me and you are doing the same. I don't judge you but I will miss you!

I have friends who are Christian, Jewish, agnostic, atheist. I have just as much in common spiritually with some of my agnostic friends. But I can't shake that belief in God and my affinity for the teachings of Jesus.

Good luck on your search!

[GodIsLove]

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of the forums.  :dsunny:

I have enjoyed being here but I will be leaving the forums today.  :declare:

Some may want an explanation... :Chinscratch: Some won't care...  :dontknow: (and why should they)... But I feel I owe an explanation so that I'm not leaving with lots of unanswered questions as I have got to know a few people on here and I do care for them.   :HeartThrob:

Well...

I'm not a believer...Plain and simple. 
First of all I wasn't born with a bible in my hand and don't believe the bible is necessary to know God.  I do not believe the bible (as we know it) comes from God but from men like every other religion.  I've heard plenty men talk but I haven't heard God talk aside from the miracles i've seen in my own life... Perhaps God does talk through men sometimes...But all 'bible talks' bring me is confusion and misery as men bicker with one-another over their beliefs and interpretation of what they have just read in the bible whereas someone talking about love and helping people (like a nurse or something) fills me with joy and hope.  I'd rather be out doing some good in the world than sitting reading dusty old books.

I do not believe and cannot make myself believe that a man (Jesus) whom I don't know died on the cross at the witness of people I don't know 2000 years ago...I just cannot!  I also cannot see how a God (who can do anything) (who makes ALL the rules and has TOTAL free will)... requires a sacrifice.

I do not see how someone can pay 'my fine' on my behelf for MY sins.  If I am guilty of a crime I should be the one punished as that is justice.

Also I do not see how I can be punished anyway when I apparently have no 'free will' of my own!  (How can a 'robot' which has been pre-programmed by someone else 'sin'?)

Nor do I believe in sin the way Christians do.  For example I believe that bad is required to know good and up is required to know down and left to know right and sad to know happy and hate to know love etc etc.  I believe that had we been born in paradise we would not have known we were in paradise without a little 'hell' in there to make us know and appreciate where we were.

And...Many other reasons which I won't get into as I don't think it's really important.

My 'God' has been love...All through my life...And I've had miracles to back it up...  I thought I'd look into Christianity again due to my grandad seeing Jesus before he died...But even that isn't biblical (the dead know nowt)...And i've since watched videos of NDE'S where people have said things like "I saw Jesus...Well...It might have been Jesus I'm not really sure...It was a spiritual figure"...  So....  :dontknow:

Do I think I am right in my thinking/beliefs?  -  Obviously or I wouldn't be leaving.  At the same time anyone can be wrong...It's not impossible! (what is!?).

The Unitarians have an understanding more appealing to me and I'm going to be joining them and see what comes of it as there is a spiritual side to me which I must nourish...
"Unitarian Universalists have many ways of naming what is sacred. Some believe in a God; some don't believe in a God. Some believe in a sacred force at work in the world, and call it "love," "mystery," "source of all" or "spirit of life." We are thousands of individuals of all ages, each influenced by our cultures and life experiences to understand "the ground of our being" in our own way. Unitarian Universalists are agnostic, theist, atheist, and everything in between. "
...That just sounds more 'up my street' as it were...For (perceived) wrong or right...I have to go where my heart leads me...

I love everyone...Not just Christians...I love Muslims and I accept them 'right where they are' whatever they believe and Hindus and whatever...  Even 'ET' believers...I can see where they are coming from at times...They have been brainwashed...It's not their fault...They are scared and want love and one thing leads to another and most people don't know their bum from their elbow and a lot in churches do a lot more good than I've ever done like helping out charities and food banks and visiting the sick etc...Who am i to judge anyone...A lot of the time the confusion and hurt is because of religious books and people cracking up trying to make sense of them...Contradictions forever spinning around in a persons' head...Then you have to believe in demons and ... Well...

I'll be guided by my heart which I've had to trust in when EVERY person in my life has let me down TIME AND TIME AGAIN...including Christians.

I honestly feel better and more free already.
I don't need a bible to tell me it's wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, etc...That's already inside me.   Endorsing slavery, murder, misogyny, rape, and racism etc isn't.

Anyway...
My very best to all of you!
Thank you for the opportunity and ... Well I'll see you all again some day.  :HeartThrob:

I'll hang about for a bit just to say bye to some folk in messages etc.

To speak to some specifics:

I too believe we needed duality to know good and evil and appreciate good. I think "eating the tree of good and evil" is what we are all doing.

Adam IMO is symbolic of us all, and like others I believe Adam was not yet perfect so he didn't "fall" he just entered a period of learning that is necessary to be made in the image of God. I think we are being made in the image of God through our experiences.

We all start out innocent like he did as babies/children.
Throughout life we all eat from the tree of knowing good and evil.
Then we eventually become like God.

Many Christians differ in what the cross means and many don't believe Jesus paid a fine for our sins.

Many Christian Universalists love others who have different faiths or are atheist because we believe that they are trying to live their life to the best of their ability within their upbringing, environment etc and God will guide or is guiding them as well, the specifics of how it all works is mystery.

Many Christian Universalists don't believe in after life punishment for sin but that God is warning us of the real consequences of our actions here on Earth. I believe the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is regret at past actions when we see how they have negatively affected ourselves and others. This feeling is "fiery judgment" that purifies us.

I also have echoed the sentiment that too much theological analysis may be missing the point and simplicity of loving God and our neighbors.

Like I said good luck on your search. We are all on different paths.

[Dandelion]

Sorry to see you go, Marc. I understand that this site is not for everyone.

I urge you to continue to seek the truth, on your journey.

I hope you will reconsider reading and studying the Bible. I believe it is the greatest love story, ever told.

May you have God's peace, that surpasses all understanding.

D.

[jabcat]

Sorry to see you go, Marc. I understand that this site is not for everyone.

I urge you to continue to seek the truth, on your journey.

I hope you will reconsider reading and studying the Bible. I believe it is the greatest love story, ever told.

May you have God's peace, that surpasses all understanding.

D.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

Hello ,
  Not been saying much  anywhere  to anyone .  Because  everything is what it is , and most folks cannot handle the  truth very well   , some struggle with the truth their whole entire  lives , to their dying breath even .
I have been reading mostly  here at the TM   for a bit now .
  I don't want you to be discouraged Marc , so I am going to share  something that has comforted me greatly over the past several years .

  The BIBLE is a witness  and so is the  Holy Spirit , both speak to our  inner being , when we are born again from above by the gift of faith  and gives us many gifts if we ask Him for it  with a sincere   true  heart   to actually KNOW HIM ...

  Every last one of us  are born from below  first /in Adam /mankind , and it is true some  , born from above , being the WORD OF TRUTH/ THE LORD JESUS CHRIST is His earthly name, above all other names  , a gift of faith  to work with ,  as most  do not take  a hold  very firmly nor can endure  for very long  . when put to the test , like everything  in  death & life ,  it is easy to say and hard to do .........We have heard it but do we actually KNOW it ? LIVE IT ?  LOVE IT ?.  It has created great conflict  in the human soul /life .

I do believe that is why God shortened the days of our human existence.  Because it just takes a little evil to corrupt a whole lot of good .   It is a power  struggle within  of death and life working in and though us all .

  For me I have always known  secretly , God is proving a point  , that mankind does not do well without God intervening  on their behalf .

Because  without faith  it is impossible to please God and faith is the very  core of our connection , that is TRUTH .and every gift of God is given by and for and with the  WORD of  Truth , Gods own standard and how we treat the truth and  the truth in each other .

There is no one I know that has the whole truth , because it is the prize we are all striving for , to KNOW  and BE a part of  the WHOLE TRUTH .

It says the heart is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ?   This is the need to be born again from above , because if the evil is ruling our hearts and we are calling it God   doesn't that  just about make us all  liars and hypocrites ?

  Just actors playing their parts well or poorly ?   men ruling over men and calling it God ?
It sure is a power trip  , most ask , Where is God at in all the evil going on in the world ?   

He is just where He said He would be , always has been and always will be  and not very far away from anyone of us .

God  can be heard in the silence  , when we learn to just shut off the world   and all its noise ,  can and  will be blessed of God . but we ,. like a frog set in a pot of  water when the temperature is barely  heated  and when the heat is  increasingly turned up   will die before it   can  realize  it is cooked before getting out safely .

God said , because the iniquity would abound   the love of many would become cold /hard as a rock even and  also because the iniquity /lawlessness  , that man of lawlessness  needing to be exposed  first  , the grace of God would abound the more .

But when it is all said and done    in the end , will  we actually Believe God at HIS WORD ?  His True witness along with the Holy Spirit of truth witness  , both are securing us  in all truth . The Truth is  found in the freedom many  are  willing to  die in /to this world for .

  I have that hope that we all certainly will Know the Love of God ,was and is ,and will always be  ,the real truth of the matter .

No one can take this power to Believe  God at His  WORD  away from you , unless you give them that power over you .
  and that has been the fatal flaw of mankind's existence from the beginning ..But we now Know it is the eternal Spirit of Truth and Life that  cannot ever die   that we/some  can and do believe in completely .

[CST]

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of the forums.  :dsunny:

I have enjoyed being here but I will be leaving the forums today.  :declare:

Some may want an explanation... :Chinscratch: Some won't care...  :dontknow: (and why should they)... But I feel I owe an explanation so that I'm not leaving with lots of unanswered questions as I have got to know a few people on here and I do care for them.   :HeartThrob:

Well...

I'm not a believer...Plain and simple. 
First of all I wasn't born with a bible in my hand and don't believe the bible is necessary to know God.  I do not believe the bible (as we know it) comes from God but from men like every other religion.  I've heard plenty men talk but I haven't heard God talk aside from the miracles i've seen in my own life... Perhaps God does talk through men sometimes...But all 'bible talks' bring me is confusion and misery as men bicker with one-another over their beliefs and interpretation of what they have just read in the bible whereas someone talking about love and helping people (like a nurse or something) fills me with joy and hope.  I'd rather be out doing some good in the world than sitting reading dusty old books.

I do not believe and cannot make myself believe that a man (Jesus) whom I don't know died on the cross at the witness of people I don't know 2000 years ago...I just cannot!  I also cannot see how a God (who can do anything) (who makes ALL the rules and has TOTAL free will)... requires a sacrifice.

I do not see how someone can pay 'my fine' on my behelf for MY sins.  If I am guilty of a crime I should be the one punished as that is justice.

Also I do not see how I can be punished anyway when I apparently have no 'free will' of my own!  (How can a 'robot' which has been pre-programmed by someone else 'sin'?)

Nor do I believe in sin the way Christians do.  For example I believe that bad is required to know good and up is required to know down and left to know right and sad to know happy and hate to know love etc etc.  I believe that had we been born in paradise we would not have known we were in paradise without a little 'hell' in there to make us know and appreciate where we were.

And...Many other reasons which I won't get into as I don't think it's really important.

My 'God' has been love...All through my life...And I've had miracles to back it up...  I thought I'd look into Christianity again due to my grandad seeing Jesus before he died...But even that isn't biblical (the dead know nowt)...And i've since watched videos of NDE'S where people have said things like "I saw Jesus...Well...It might have been Jesus I'm not really sure...It was a spiritual figure"...  So....  :dontknow:

Do I think I am right in my thinking/beliefs?  -  Obviously or I wouldn't be leaving.  At the same time anyone can be wrong...It's not impossible! (what is!?).

The Unitarians have an understanding more appealing to me and I'm going to be joining them and see what comes of it as there is a spiritual side to me which I must nourish...
"Unitarian Universalists have many ways of naming what is sacred. Some believe in a God; some don't believe in a God. Some believe in a sacred force at work in the world, and call it "love," "mystery," "source of all" or "spirit of life." We are thousands of individuals of all ages, each influenced by our cultures and life experiences to understand "the ground of our being" in our own way. Unitarian Universalists are agnostic, theist, atheist, and everything in between. "
...That just sounds more 'up my street' as it were...For (perceived) wrong or right...I have to go where my heart leads me...

I love everyone...Not just Christians...I love Muslims and I accept them 'right where they are' whatever they believe and Hindus and whatever...  Even 'ET' believers...I can see where they are coming from at times...They have been brainwashed...It's not their fault...They are scared and want love and one thing leads to another and most people don't know their bum from their elbow and a lot in churches do a lot more good than I've ever done like helping out charities and food banks and visiting the sick etc...Who am i to judge anyone...A lot of the time the confusion and hurt is because of religious books and people cracking up trying to make sense of them...Contradictions forever spinning around in a persons' head...Then you have to believe in demons and ... Well...

I'll be guided by my heart which I've had to trust in when EVERY person in my life has let me down TIME AND TIME AGAIN...including Christians.

I honestly feel better and more free already.
I don't need a bible to tell me it's wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, etc...That's already inside me.   Endorsing slavery, murder, misogyny, rape, and racism etc isn't.

Anyway...
My very best to all of you!
Thank you for the opportunity and ... Well I'll see you all again some day.  :HeartThrob:

I'll hang about for a bit just to say bye to some folk in messages etc.

A Bible is certainly not necessary to know God, it can't be because we believe that the people who wrote the Bible wrote their parts without having those parts. Moses, who we believe wrote the beginning of the Bible, obvious knew God without the Bible as did all the patriarchs before him. But we believe that the Bible tells us what God told them because without it anyone can make claims that God has spoken to them and there's no way for us to know it that's true or not. The Bible is clear many people do make that claim and God, through the Bible, warns us to know that many of those claims may well be false.

Your position seems to be theistic in that you are both beyond agnostics, who don't believe its possible to know any thing about God, and deists who believe God made the world but afterwards has nothing to do with it. You seem to be a theist in that you believe that a. God exists and b. God can and will reveal Himself to us through His various actions in the world. The Bible is held to be a record of several of those actions as recorded by people who witnessed them and things God said to those people so people who follow them can know those things without waiting for God to confirm it to them. It would be very tiresome if God had to tell everyone individually what He wanted in order for them to believe it but that is what you seem to think. That you should not be expected to believe anything unless God personally shows you it is true. This, I do not think is reasonable. How to you convey to others the importance of this if God has to tell everyone individually? The concept utterly undermines trust in our relationships which God no doubt intends for us as I'm sure you would agree.

If you say you cannot believe the testimony of those who witnessed Jesus die who's testimony are you prepared to believe? Human history is vast; why should you not believe them but believe other claims about the history of our planet?

The second part of your question is clearer, I certainly understand why you would struggle to believe why God needed a sacrifice in order to save us. Well, obviously in the absolute sense He didn't but that doesn't mean very much. The sacrifice of Jesus is a teaching model it exists to show that God saves us, why he has saved us and how big a deal it is to save us. Many essays have mean written on the meaning of the crucifixion. Telling you even part of what I think (and I don't believe I've yet finished thinking) on this would go beyond the scope of the article. But suffice it to say that it is not necessary for God but it is necessary for us. I do hope to speak more on this point in answer to your next ones.

No, that is not justice. This misunderstanding of justice is causing a lot of problems in human society. It makes mercy fundamentally injustice. If a man has commit a specif crime there is a specific punishment for that crime and he must receive it or else justice is not done. To give any degree of mercy is not just because he has not received full due. Conversely if he is sentenced to harshly you create an injustice deficit which can never be fixed. Again explaining exactly what justice is goes beyond the scope of my answer to you but rest assured the definition that you are using and many in society use has certain relations with justice but is ultimately a definition of revenge masquerading as justice.

Obviously some would not agree that we are robots, some may have invented the idea we are not robots because of precisely this problem. But this argument forgets one thing; we may be robots but we are self-aware robots. This means we have particular awareness when we fail. Some of us are highly critical of this and will practically punish themselves, others will not care to much some won't think there's a problem at all. But we are self-aware and being self aware we have to be encouraged and aided to desist from doing harmful things. 'Punishment' as you call it, not without good reason, is essentially in-situ reprogramming of the robot until it is correct. Why punish someone for something they cannot help? Because it helps them become what they would rather be. This is an important point I hope to return to later.

Essentially the issue here is that if people think in the ways described here; that people should be punished for their own crimes or else not punished at all because they are not guilty for what they couldn't help saving them really does become impossible. It creates a state of stubbornness that is highly resistent to God. They refuse to accept God's mercy if they haven't been punished to the degree they think they should be, they won't even think of extending the same mercy to others and they may resent God for inflicting harm on them for things they believe they could not help (fine stay as the reprobate you are).

You say that if we had been born in paradise we would be able to appreciate it. This is the truest thing you have said but in that sentiment is the answer to all your questions; the answers I have tried to touch on above.

As I say trust is important but how do we value it without the possibility of mistrust and deceit? Well, we can't so we are in a world where some people are untrustworthy but how do we know who those people are. Well, you can't unless you have some sort of independent guide, like the Bible, to clue us in and even then we know there are problems. You object that the Bible causes dissension but this is exactly the sort of dissension we should expect in a non-paradise as you are describing. I personally agree that the Bible is not perfect but we need something to trust when people can be so untrustworthy.

Why did Jesus need to die in some an imperfect way? Because of the imperfection of the world. People are independent entities we don't know exactly what God's will for us is even though the Bible points us in the general direction and is better than most things. But we make errors, often errors we don't want to make, because the world isn't perfect. We can beat ourselves up over these errors but continue doing them. We do these thing because we are imperfect beings made to live in an imperfect world and you suggest you wouldn't have it any other way. But eventually this must stop, we need to stop being imperfect, or at least less imperfect, and become perfect (or more perfect than we are anyway) sometimes our own self-criticism is enough to fix some of our problems but others can only be fixed from the outside. The process to get 'errors' that served us in the imperfect world but will be utterly detrimental in the perfect one out, the reprogramming can be painful, a further part of the imperfection, but if is absolutely necessary as you yourself point out it is.

You say you don't need to Bible to tell you not to steal or lie or commit adultery but you'd be surprised. A lot of societies have been a lot more flexible on these matters than you might think and some still are it would seem. Don't assume your own moral superiority or that, that superiority is obvious to everyone. It isn't or the world wouldn't be what it is; imperfect as you claim it currently should be.

Yet we are called on to challenge moral error yet frequently fail to do so. We even elect leaders of immense moral lack. If often seems the choice really is between trying two decide between the slightly lessor of two very great evils. Even those that do challenge moral lack may still not, as Jesus teaches, see the beam in their own eye.

This is probably not the place to discuss you criticisms of the actual content of the Bible which are historic and cover many matters of concern yet are not entirely without foundation. But again the world in which we live is imperfect, you can expect to find nothing that is perfect therein.

Nevertheless, the failure of the Bible is generally the failure of man. Not the failure of either God or the Bible.

[GodIsLove]

CST,
Excellent post  :thumbsup:

[darryl]

I'm very surprised, as you spoke like a believer, and bible based or so I thought.. you don't have alternate personalities do you? ..strange.. but.. all the best..

1 Tim 4:10 - "God is the savior of all"

Christian Universalism is the closest thing I've ever found to what I believe so far...But it still isn't close enough...Our main similarity of course is believeing (knowing) that God is love and doesn't torture His own creation forever in a big fire.

Marie I could have been born in another country at another time and never heard of Jesus...
...Whatever (I have) It's inside me and that's what I follow...Not a book...  All this reading and studying drives me mad and much of what is in the bible conflicts with what's inside me...
If God wants to guide me I'm sure He will (and does).  Just remember that none of the disciples or apostles carried a Concordant around and for centuries (even right after the time of Jesus) people debated whether Christ had 'risen'.  I have no proof of it and so I'd be a liar if I promoted it.  I can have faith that Bob down the road is a rapist but I'm not going to go around proclaiming it because I don't know the truth...and Jesus demands a heck of a lot of faith from me...Feeding 5000, turning water into wine, rising from death... 

...I'm afraid for me to ever believe the Jesus part of the whole thing God himself would have to show me. 
But the way I see it...Jesus was a man.  God is God.  I trust God not man...
There is no evidence to say that Jesus spoke the words he is said to have spoke.
I love mankind...But I wouldn't trust anyone as far as I could throw them...Not even myself - with such an important matter.

If God wants me to know - I'll know.  My trust is in Him (which I believe is love). 

:HeartThrob:

I don't worry bout believing in every single thing in the Bible anymore...all I need to know is Jesus love and share it with others by being a loving person...the rest takes care of itself.

[CST]

CST,
Excellent post  :thumbsup:

Thanks, I thought about ending that post by quoting 1 Peter 3:15 except in context that seems to refer to people who may actually be more hostile than Marc has been.

[MusicLover123]

Colossians 2
8See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ

1 Peter 4
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

[guest6024]

Hi Marc
I just wanted to share that to fall under the umbrella of "Christian" is a diverse thing. I consider myself a Christian but I've had an interesting path. I was raised Catholic, decided it wasn't for me, but still like you was a seeker. I did a variety of things to find truth: I did drugs and hallucinogens, I pursued "New Age" stuff, I looked into Buddhism, chakras, 2012, Hinduism, I read Deepak Chopra. Then one of my clients who was a "Born again" Christian started to talk my ear off and I mostly just thought she was a crazy bible thumper but slowly I became interested in what she was saying. One night she told me about inviting God into my heart and it seems so corny but the personal feeling of the God of the universe being accessible within left me feeling changed, I cried the whole way home. I felt different. And I wanted to suddenly read the Bible.

I have since been to a few churches but like you I don't stick around because what they preach isn't what I feel inside of me. I don't believe that I had to invite God unto my heart I believe God is already there but we need a catalyst to access or realize this.

I felt like maybe I was now "Christian" because I felt this connection to God and the Bible so I began to call myself this. But then I ran into people whose Christianity wasn't what I experienced or believed. Still to this day I don't really have anyone who is totally kindred to what I believe.

These other Christians would talk about how this or that is a sin, they would talk about who was and wasn't saved, and about hell. Until this point I hadn't given all this much thought. So then I began to be afraid. I had a period of time where I was anxiety ridden and fearful. I prayed to God and asked him to show me the answer, if there is a hell or not. And I then opened the Bible app to read for the night and saw the "Every knee shall now..." scripture which I believe was my answer, that there is no hell.

I then joined Tentmaker and they have been a source of learning and fellowship but like I said we are a diverse group.

I have said that I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I don't think anyone or anything on earth was or is without error, but I think God uses imperfect vessels all of the time for his use. I think imperfect is actually beautiful.

I do think God is in the pages of the Bible but I also think it's evident that man's hand has written it. I think the Old Testament is mysterious and it is also man trying to understand and explain the divine with their own limited experience. Those books are OLD. It's men trying to explain spiritual things but language is often limited. I think genesis is mysterious as well, and I don't think much of the Bible should be taken literally like fundamentalists but it still contains truths I have yet to find elsewhere.. I think there are books that were left out, books that were edited with an agenda, and things that show the writers' culture, bias, and beliefs. Man is imperfect so I believe the Bible is imperfect because we are the ones writing, translating, editing and interpreting it, hence  imperfection seeping in.

But I still find God in the pages. I think all of the teachings about forgiveness and not judging and giving freely to each other and loving are better than any other sacred text I've read and I read a lot.

I think there are kernels of truth in all beliefs but once I heard someone say all other religions are man seeking God but Christianity is God seeking man.

I believe Jesus was sent to teach us a better way. Forgiveness instead of an eye for an eye. I don't know what exactly to believe about Jesus because even within Christianity there is no consensus. Was he a being sent by God, was he someone who was one with God and we can attain that too, was he actually God incarnate? I think it's a bit of all of those.

I don't believe Jesus died to appease an angry God or for a substitute atonement for our sins.

I think he died for many reasons: because he was a revolutionary and people wanted him dead, to show us that there is nothing to fear after death because he rose and showed himself to others, to send God's spirit—the comforter or Holy Spirit— to us individually, which he says will happen after his death, and to show what true pacifism and forgiveness is: he didn't fight back and he said "Father forgive them they know not what they are doing" as they were torturing him to death. he was showing God's character of love and forgiveness even in the face of evil.

I don't think we have to believe a certain dogma or doctrine. I think God love us all and is working in our lives. I think we may have pre existed and this earthly life is for learning multpile lessons.

I don't even call myself "saved." I'm clearly not perfect and I don't think I'm special. Whatever happens I'm living out my life how it makes sense to me and you are doing the same. I don't judge you but I will miss you!

I have friends who are Christian, Jewish, agnostic, atheist. I have just as much in common spiritually with some of my agnostic friends. But I can't shake that belief in God and my affinity for the teachings of Jesus.

Good luck on your search!

I can't leave here ... Because of people like you... I need you all.  I just need some time. Thank you for this it meant a lot to me.

[marie glen]

Amen, God alone is immortal and so He alone is life.. and "those who believe will never die aionion" ..It is all Him..  "..whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify."

In Deuteronomy YHVH (we now know as father) said "I set before thee this day, life and death.. choose life." Those who believe are "predestined" to 'choose' Him! I remember the man who said to Jesus, "Lord! help my unbelief!" .."if you taste of the LORD and see that He is good, and you draw back, my soul will have no pleasure in thee.." "draw not back in unbelief like the fathers did" - I  don't have the wording of that right. :Chinscratch: In Hebrews 4? "Through unbelief they could not enter His rest." [They didn't have the holy spirit?]

Unbelief, to me, is not logical. And not just because of the 2nd law of science, the anthropic principle, or how both a big bang and organic from inorganic are like the most huge ever of immaculate conceptions! :laughing7:

Faith / Jesus / the fountain of Life.. :cloud9: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD" Hosea 6:3.

Rose is right! :iagree: He is proving life without Him is vain and useless.. can never work.. And we can hear Him in the quietness (I always want to capitalize Quietness, lol. :gsmile: )

[GodIsLove]

I think i've learned more what 'punishment' is too... 
I need you to know that I'm not an amazingly loving person or anything!  I just had this thought! 
I struggle to love people all the time!  I do my best but...I'm pretty bad at it! 
I don't feel like John writing about love in the New Testament or anything! - Just as an ordinary, terribly flawed man!

I believe this next thought came from God though but decide for yourselves...

I had the thought after being reconciled with my family and being instantly accepted by them with no questions asked for many things I had done wrong...Many things...I've been so lost lately... 
I actually thought I was right when I was doing so much wrong before...I thought I was justified...and then one day I just saw myself under a light of truth...  I had asked God for help...

Anyway...

I saw 'a judgement' and 'Hitler' (or 'a hitler' (we have all done wrong)) but let's just say it is the actual 'Hitler'.
He was standing with the rest of the world all around him.  Lots of people...When I say 'lots'...It's a big understatement lol.
Lots of people were angry at him.
Some were shouting at him in anger looking for the opportunity to 'have their justice'.
Hitler was afraid.
Jesus said: "If anyone is without sin...Cast the first stone".
Nobody did.
Everybody just walked away...
...Me included...I just couldn't do it...I was guilty of things too...
Then Jesus said (to Hitler): 
"Did nobody condemn you?  Good.  Neither me".
Then Jesus walked away from Hitler slowly and entered a door and Hitler was 'left outside'.
The rest of humanity was in that door now and could be heard laughing and loving and...Beautiful, just beautiful...Just like a big universal song.
This door was never locked or closed...it was always left open a little...I want to point that out.
Hitler could hear from outside but he wasn't yet ready to enter...His guilt, his 'unworthyness'...
Hitler hung around the door for ages, pondering...Occasionally he would break down on his knees and sob uncontrollably.
Once in a while someone from inside would stick their head out...
"Are you coming in or what?  C'mon your missing all the fun".
But he still wasn't ready...
"I don't deserve to enter", he would say.
"Suit yourself", said the person at the door, going back inside to join everyone else.
But eventually Hitler would walk in through that door... 
...Like we all will.

I really believe God overcomes hate with love.

I've learned recently that love is far more powerful...

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

I was in a dark dark place...Fed up, burned out and I told God 'I just want to love'. 

For some reason this despair seems to precede learning in my experience.

I discovered we are parts that make the whole...

1 Corinthians 12
as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15Now if the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

I've just been reconciled to some loved ones (with ALL our differences) and it feels good and i've learned that I don't have a life...its not about 'me'...my life is other people...my family and friends...ALL of us...  There is no life if it's just me...  I really learned that lesson recently and its really brought me to my knees. 

Philippians 2:1-30
So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus

and i've found the best answer anyway...Just to love...That's the most important thing. 

1 Corinthians 13
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

John 13
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

I've really learned that its not what we keep but what we give away... 

Proverbs 11:24-25
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want. Whoever brings blessing will be enriched, and one who waters will himself be watered.

Acts 20:35
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

I think i've learned more what 'punishment' is too... 
I need you to know that I'm not an amazingly loving person or anything!  I just had this thought! 
I struggle to love people all the time!  I do my best but...I'm pretty bad at it! 
I don't feel like John writing about love in the New Testament or anything! - Just as an ordinary, terribly flawed man!

I believe this next thought came from God though but decide for yourselves...

I had the thought after being reconciled with my family and being instantly accepted by them with no questions asked for many things I had done wrong...Many things...I've been so lost lately... 
I actually thought I was right when I was doing so much wrong before...I thought I was justified...and then one day I just saw myself under a light of truth...  I had asked God for help...

Anyway...

I saw 'a judgement' and 'Hitler' (or 'a hitler' (we have all done wrong)) but let's just say it is the actual 'Hitler'.
He was standing with the rest of the world all around him.  Lots of people...When I say 'lots'...It's a big understatement lol.
Lots of people were angry at him.
Some were shouting at him in anger looking for the opportunity to 'have their justice'.
Hitler was afraid.
Jesus said: "If anyone is without sin...Cast the first stone".
Nobody did.
Everybody just walked away...
...Me included...I just couldn't do it...I was guilty of things too...
Then Jesus said (to Hitler): 
"Did nobody condemn you?  Good.  Neither me".
Then Jesus walked away from Hitler slowly and entered a door and Hitler was 'left outside'.
The rest of humanity was in that door now and could be heard laughing and loving and...Beautiful, just beautiful...Just like a big universal song.
This door was never locked or closed...it was always left open a little...I want to point that out.
Hitler could hear from outside but he wasn't yet ready to enter...His guilt, his 'unworthyness'...
Hitler hung around the door for ages, pondering...Occasionally he would break down on his knees and sob uncontrollably.
Once in a while someone from inside would stick their head out...
"Are you coming in or what?  C'mon your missing all the fun".
But he still wasn't ready...
"I don't deserve to enter", he would say.
"Suit yourself", said the person at the door, going back inside to join everyone else.
But eventually Hitler would walk in through that door... 
...Like we all will.

I really believe God overcomes hate with love.

I've learned recently that love is far more powerful...

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup:  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I think i've learned more what 'punishment' is too... 
I need you to know that I'm not an amazingly loving person or anything!  I just had this thought! 
I struggle to love people all the time!  I do my best but...I'm pretty bad at it! 
I don't feel like John writing about love in the New Testament or anything! - Just as an ordinary, terribly flawed man!

I believe this next thought came from God though but decide for yourselves...

I had the thought after being reconciled with my family and being instantly accepted by them with no questions asked for many things I had done wrong...Many things...I've been so lost lately... 
I actually thought I was right when I was doing so much wrong before...I thought I was justified...and then one day I just saw myself under a light of truth...  I had asked God for help...

Anyway...

I saw 'a judgement' and 'Hitler' (or 'a hitler' (we have all done wrong)) but let's just say it is the actual 'Hitler'.
He was standing with the rest of the world all around him.  Lots of people...When I say 'lots'...It's a big understatement lol.
Lots of people were angry at him.
Some were shouting at him in anger looking for the opportunity to 'have their justice'.
Hitler was afraid.
Jesus said: "If anyone is without sin...Cast the first stone".
Nobody did.
Everybody just walked away...
...Me included...I just couldn't do it...I was guilty of things too...
Then Jesus said (to Hitler): 
"Did nobody condemn you?  Good.  Neither me".
Then Jesus walked away from Hitler slowly and entered a door and Hitler was 'left outside'.
The rest of humanity was in that door now and could be heard laughing and loving and...Beautiful, just beautiful...Just like a big universal song.
This door was never locked or closed...it was always left open a little...I want to point that out.
Hitler could hear from outside but he wasn't yet ready to enter...His guilt, his 'unworthyness'...
Hitler hung around the door for ages, pondering...Occasionally he would break down on his knees and sob uncontrollably.
Once in a while someone from inside would stick their head out...
"Are you coming in or what?  C'mon your missing all the fun".
But he still wasn't ready...
"I don't deserve to enter", he would say.
"Suit yourself", said the person at the door, going back inside to join everyone else.
But eventually Hitler would walk in through that door... 
...Like we all will.

I really believe God overcomes hate with love.

I've learned recently that love is far more powerful...

I like that too! :thumbsup:

[CST]

Very interesting.
Thank you for writing what you wrote.
I will certainly take on board what you have said.

Thank you, hopefully I will remember to do the same myself. Sorry about the errors and absent negatives.