There is going to be an experiment. Tentmaker Forums is going to allow a discussion of subject matter regarding the sovereign will of God and man's will in relationship to God. This is a subject of great interest, substantial complexity and sometimes unfortunately, heated passions.
The terminology surrounding this discussion is made difficult as our understandings of certain words and the way they fit into our diverse theology often differ.
The idea that such a subject should be discouraged is unfortunate, but because the controversy and the kind of strife it can generate is so serious and often grievous- it has for a time been strongly discouraged and quickly redirected.
The moderation of the experiment will be focused at maintaining an attitude of polite discussion between brothers and sisters sharing their perspectives respectfully. Scripture ought to salt these discussion as participants "speak the truth in love", as they see it.
I personally believe God is absolutely sovereign. He can and does whatever He wants to whenever He wants to- He is like the wind and He is like the rock. He has set in motion a purpose, "His kind intention"(rock)(Eph 1:10,11). He has left within a certain amount of "inscrutable mystery"(wind) so that we may never say that we have been His counselor(Romans 11:33-36).
I also believe that within God's plan as he teaches us to be like Him- like the wind and the rock- He leaves us also a certain stewardship- a limited sovereignity freely exercised as we learn to be conformed to His image. Eventually, in my view, the will of man(all) merges with the will of God in a mutually given love that is like a cataract falling over a mountainside or a wind blowing through the leaves of a willow tree. IMO This happens sooner for some, later for others. The balance between the foreknowledge of God, the predestination of individuals, calling and election versus concepts like repentance, obedience, sanctification are like two sides of one coin to me.
I do not believe my view is "correct". It is only the small window of one persons experience in seeking the Lord and studying His word. Actually, I do not believe a "correct view" exists on this side of the veil- and that is why we strive so intensely against one another. We are not comfortable with fuzzy edges- we like clarity. We love to "know".
I suggest we speak as those who see through a glass darkly, even if we think we absolutely possess the whole counsel of God.
Hopefully, some will ask questions and others will bring forth their views without unleashing a firestorm :o). I have friends who do not see things as I do. Let's be like friend's discussing subjects of interest. Let's not judge anyones spirituality by whether they agree with us or make our view the standard of measure. As long as we can discuss these things in an atmosphere of fellowship, and praise God for His grace, we can continue to do so and edify one another. Participants who cannot abide by this rule will get a warning. After the first warning they may be disallowed from participating for a time if they don't get it. Hopefully the experiment will be a great success.
Enjoy.
Great starter John. Maybe you summed it up perfectly and nobody has anything left to say. :happy3:
Or another thought - ssshhhh...maybe nobody will notice it. :wink3:
Okay, James kinda started it off but I've decided to let scripture speak for itself and let everyone decide what it means
Jeremiah 10:23 - "Lord, I know that none of us are in charge of our own destiny;
none of us have control over our own life."
I see this very similarly to EW. Gods will is Gods will...we can not thwart that. I believe that within that will, is Gods desire to educate our spirits through our limited will...where we can make choices and educate our spirits with such choices.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 05:40:01 AM
Okay, James kinda started it off but I've decided to let scripture speak for itself and let everyone decide what it means
Jeremiah 10:23 - "Lord, I know that none of us are in charge of our own destiny;
none of us have control over our own life."
(23)O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. (24)O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.
(Jer 10:23-24)
The scriptures do speak for themselves, but we interpret them as we will ;o) With the following verse, it appears that Jeremiah is speaking of correction, which is connected to the exercise of will. A reasonable perspective on verse 23 could be that man cannot find His destiny without correction and direction- as opposed to, for instance, absolute control. Therefore it behooves us, as Jeremiah does in verse 24, to pray for correction.
Quote from: jabcat on October 28, 2012, 05:28:02 AM
Great starter John. Maybe you summed it up perfectly and nobody has anything left to say. :happy3:
Or another thought - ssshhhh...maybe nobody will notice it. :wink3:
:Pray:
The point being, our circumstances are shaped to direct our will. Many of us have had a "salvation experience" but for most of us, it was a set of circumstances that brought us to Christ and we probably would not have responded under any other set of circumstances. So, IMO free will is an illusion.
I don't believe our wills are absolutely free. I think we do have some limited will within Gods sovereignty. If God directs everything...does He direct my sin? God knows the ending...and guides our steps to that ending, but I must believe He gives us some room to roam, experience, learn and grow by the consequences of our actions.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 06:52:25 AM
The point being, our circumstances are shaped to direct our will. Many of us have had a "salvation experience" but for most of us, it was a set of circumstances that brought us to Christ and we probably would not have responded under any other set of circumstances. So, IMO free will is an illusion.
I guess that depends on how you define "free will". I prefer to speak of man's will in relationship to God's will- as James shared with me recently. I do not like "hot button" terms that categorize and generalize without thoughtful discussion and meditation.
If by "free will" you mean "utterly free to do whatever" I agree with you entirely. If, by illusion, you mean, "no will at all sin relationship to God for which we are accountable", I would disagree with you. Of course, what I am presenting would be a matter of degree, some very subjective perceptions.
So let me ask a question, when Joshua says, "Choose you this day whom you shall serve"(Joshua 24:15), or when Peter answers the question, "Men and brethren, what must we do?" with the exhortation to repent and be baptized, does it have any meaning in relationship to the exercize of man's will, and if so What? How do we communicate this meaning?
When the writer of Hebrews quotes the Psalmist(95:7),
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS'; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'" Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
(Heb 3:7-13)
How do we express the exercise of our will in response to the exhortations of God?
Or in these verses, where Paul is speaking to pagans, he says God is now declaring to all men that they should repent (a declaration that will be in effect, by the way, until the last man does so :Pray:)
"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:29-31)
The doctrinal explanation concerning the over-all sovereign will of God seem at times to take a back seat to "in time" or "timely" exhortations to re-orient our wills towards God, as if we have some choice in the matter.
Here is where I am at on the subject of free will.
First thing, in my dictionary the definition of free will is: The human will regarded as free from restraints, compulsions, etc. ;freedom of CHOICE.
Since God knows everything from beginning to end, then he had to have it all planned out from start to finish. If this is true how can we change a single thing?
Even if we had free will God had to give it to us and therefore it isn't free at all just like he gave us eyes to see our CHOICES that come from him, plus our feelings that enable us to choose our CHOICES.
If God is our creator and he gave us our brain, eyes, mouth, hands, you name it, how can we think that any thing is of ourselves?
The dictionary says, "freedom of choice" but where did our choices come from? God. It says that "the whole heaven and earth is mine". God gave us every choice we choose.
Everytime it seems the scriptures indicate any free will it is always connected to works. Free will is nothing but works without God. With God, Paul said "for it is God who works in us BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure".
This is my personal opinion but if man was given a free will of his own what a mess we would have. I am so thankful to know that it is God who is in control and not me. I am like a sheep who cannot find it's way most of the time. I am a piece of clay what can clay do?
Someone said to me one time, "God doesn't care what color house I like, or what I eat for breakfast". I said, "why do you like a certain color? Why do you like certain foods"? It all starts with God and ends wioth God.
God gave us the brain we have, he gives us color, he provides us with food, it is through the brain that we choose the things we choose and I bet no one can answer as to what makes them choose certain things.
It does say, "choose this day whom you will serve" {works}but then it says no one can come to me except he be dragged. (2Cor. 3:14) says "but their minds were blinded". So, how could they choose? How can this be free will? They were influenced by Satan or God, so, how could their choices be of free will? They only had two choices, God and Satan, they were given a wicked heart and a fleshly mind, they didn't have the Holy Spirit, just WORKS that they couldn't keep.
I could write all day oin this and just touch the surface of it all. The way I see things is, everything comes from God and all will return to God. There is nothing of myself, it is all of him, for him, and to him.
CHB
An analogy:
I used to teach Biology. It was a required course. Students had the free will to not take the course, they simply wouldn't graduate.
As the rabbi(teacher of the class) I was responsible for every question on every test. The students had no choice or free will on what questions they were asked. There were multiple answers (A,B,C,D,E) and the student had the FREE WILL to choose which answer was most correct. Students felt they had free will but from taking the class to the selection of one of five answers was a guide. (TOTAL free will, they may have taken the day off to go fishing. So our "free will" is an illusion as our decisions are shaped by the foreseeable consequences of our choices)
From this answer it goes back to what Shawn said in the sense that every choice we make is based on choices we have made before (even NO CHOICE is a choice) and it ultimately goes back to where we live, our parents, genes passed down, peer influence, etc. all which happened for a reason until the ultimate influence when God started all of creation and saw the end from the beginning.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
An analogy:
I used to teach Biology. It was a required course. Students had the free will to not take the course, they simply wouldn't graduate.
As the rabbi(teacher of the class) I was responsible for every question on every test. The students had no choice or free will on what questions they were asked. There were multiple answers (A,B,C,D,E) and the student had the FREE WILL to choose which answer was most correct. Students felt they had free will but from taking the class to the selection of one of five answers was a guide. (TOTAL free will, they may have taken the day off to go fishing. So our "free will" is an illusion as our decisions are shaped by the foreseeable consequences of our choices)
From this answer it goes back to what Shawn said in the sense that every choice we make is based on choices we have made before (even NO CHOICE is a choice) and it ultimately goes back to where we live, our parents, genes passed down, peer influence, etc. all which happened for a reason until the ultimate influence when God started all of creation and saw the end from the beginning.
You explained it better than I did. :gimmefive:
CHB
I have this notion that in molecular science ,
atoms, protons that sort of thing.
That from the foundations of the earth every molecule
that exists is where it is ordained to be at given point in time.
(please let me know if I should put IMO in front of objective statements)
We have no freewill to effect these molecules,
only the ability to observe these, actions or reactions of molecules.
Once these molecules are observed .
We have one hundred percent free will to try to discover there purpose.
We have free will to search with expectations to find the purpose of God.
Gods purpose is his will. We can find his will and say I have discovered the will of God.
God can show me his will and I can say that I have discovered the will of God.
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.
Quote from: dajomaco] on October 28, 2012, 07:23:07 PM
I have this notion that in molecular science ,
atoms, protons that sort of thing.
That from the foundations of the earth every molecule
that exists is where it is ordained to be at given point in time.
(please let me know if I should put IMO in front of objective statements)
We have no freewill to effect these molecules,
only the ability to observe these, actions or reactions of molecules.
Once these molecules are observed .
We have one hundred percent free will to try to discover there purpose.
I ask myself, do I observe these molecules because it is only me that wants to, or does God have a purpose in mind that causes me to observe them?
Quote from: dajomaco
We have free will to search with expectations to find the purpose of God.
Gods purpose is his will. We can find his will and say I have discovered the will of God.
God can show me his will and I can say that I have discovered the will of God.
I ask myself again, is it me or does God want me to find out his will? Does God put in in my heart and mind to search out his will?
Quote from: dajomaco
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.
Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us"?
CHB
IMO, IMO should be put in front of all statements that may cause harm or upset but not in front of obvious stuff like "God Loves us" "live and learn" Jesus is Lord" "ded2daworld is a great guy" :laugh:
Everything was given to us by God...including this breath I now take. With that said, the problem with saying every step we take comes by the direction of God places blame of our sin on God. If I commit adultery...God made me do it? There must be a semblance of will associated with our spiritual educations.
Quote from: shawn on October 28, 2012, 08:54:45 PM
Everything was given to us by God...including this breath I now take. With that said, the problem with saying every step we take comes by the direction of God places blame of our sin on God. If I commit adultery...God made me do it? There must be a semblance of will associated with our spiritual educations.
Well, I guess we couldn't say "God made us do it" but he did put within us a sinful heart and gave us sinful flesh and put certain circumstances in our path. In my opinion God deals with us directly and sometimes indirectly.
CHB
Short story.
I once brought a magazine model to Sunday school class with me. The subject was temptation and she confessed that temptation was extremely hard on her and good looking guys were always coming on to her.
Then a physically unattractive girl, face covered in pimples and pimple scars and about 100lbs overweight said that she had no problem keeping temptation with guys under control.
Later, at lunch with my SS teacher and her husband my mentor, the teacher said, "Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" Of course the non-model was not tempted, no male approached her ever, for anything.
What I'm saying is, God says he doesn't let any temptation come our way that we(us and God) can't overcome. Overcoming is a virtue. To put it in physical terms how much strength do I demonstrate if I lift 3 lbs overhead? How much do I demonstrate if I lift 300 lbs overhead. It is what we overcome that demonstrates the strength of our relationship with God.
See what was learned when Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac simply because God requests it.
When we become strong /overcomers in little things, God moves us on to bigger things to strengthen us and bring us in closer union with Him.
Jer 12:5 The Lord said,
"Jeremiah, if you get tired racing against people,
how can you race against horses?
If you can't even stand up in open country,
how will you manage in the jungle by the Jordan?
sometimes we fall..for a cleansing and whitening effect.Daniel...some of the wise will fall......
Paul..also...expierenced a thorn in his flesh...that he not be overly exalted because of the revelation'
He knows how to see to it that we remain 'humble'...
He bound us all up in sin...that no man should boast in the flesh.
look! one man prayed to himself...Lord I thank you I am not like this fellow over here.
I do thus and thus etc etc. One man would not even lift his head up to heaven..but kept beating his breast,
saying..Lord,be merciful to me a sinner...
what qualities God see's in us..and approves of..is often not what we think[or what babylon/christendom
has taught us to think,or says that He thinks]
David very wisely said..once..Let me fall into the hands of God in judgement..and not men!!!!
It is not important to me if everyone puts IMO in front of what they type, altho I tend to do so. However, after reading all your posts, I have seen a lot of philosophy, which does not invalidate anything anyone has said to this point but......
It is somewhat important that we acknowledge that the scriptures have weight. Philosophical and theoretical reasoning does also- I have no problem with that. I simply believe that the scriptures will flow together with reason as the Holy Spirit draws us closer to the mind of Christ, since the scriptures, when illuminated by the spirit- are the logos of God.
I will continue to repeat, since I can't re-address every post, that the "hot button" terms are useless for the purpose of communicating, for instance.......
CHB defined "free will" in a certain way. Yet, the purpose of a discussion is not to "define terms", it is to arrive at truth, to edify one another and to share concepts in a reasonable and open way.
The tyranny of language can intercept sharing and mutual edification if we bow to these "terms" without understanding one anothers true perceptions. Shawn and I have expressed an idea of a limited sovereignity granted to man by God so that he might learn to "become like the Father". No one as yet on the thread has espoused a view of "free will" such as CHB has defined, so really- there is not much of an exchange going on- since no one is espousing that view.
God said, "Let us make man in our image". God is a creative independent moral being. In my opinion the lesson from the creation and into the consummation, and from birth to death, is that of yielding, becoming one with, God.
"If anyman WOULD BE my disciple LET HIM PICK UP his cross daily".
"TAKE my yoke upon you and LEARN OF ME".....
Of course, from the beginning to the end, all begins in God and ends in Him.....for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory, yet we are exhorted. Our stewardship is measured and rewarded(or penalized) according to OUR DECISIONS.
Now, I understand that we have a degree of disagreement on these things, but, in my opinion, we should be sharing scripture in relationship to these great questions which alternately vex and thrill almost all believers- and the conversation should be held to some extent in the ground of the word of God. We can use anecdotes all day long but really, what does that do but explain MY PERCEPTION.
If we are going to pile up around the polar extremes without addressing what the scriptures say- we will just spank the dead horse till it rise from the dead and whinnies "ALRItE EnUff ALreADY!" :o)
Didn't respond to CHB cuz we are in agreement. Since I couldn't offer a differing view, I didn't want to waste a post by just doing:
CHB :thumbsup: :iagree:
Yea, I gathered that you and CHB are in agreement :o), but the post is not wasted. We are all in agreement at the fundamental point that in the final outworking God will be ALL IN ALL.
Discussions about the things we see differently are really not so great when measured against the beauty of that truth :o)
It is somewhat important that we acknowledge that the scriptures have weight. Philosophical and theoretical reasoning does also- I have no problem with that. I simply believe that the scriptures will flow together with reason as the Holy Spirit draws us closer to the mind of Christ, since the scriptures, when illuminated by the spirit- are the logos of God.
The people here were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, since they welcomed the message with eagerness and examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Consequently, many of them believed, including a number of the prominent Greek women as well as men.
Something just hit me as I was reading EWs post. When God stated, lets make man in our image, most people believe...poof man was in the image of God. But, what if the making of man like God is a process, and that process involves what we are talking about here...the education of the spirit through the threshing process of the flesh? And that education is through mans limited will within Gods sovereignty?
That might already be obvious to some but that is a new thought for me.
Really, very cool Shawn. Like, I can still hear that voice echoing down through the ages past and the ages to come, "Let Us Make Man In Our Image"........ Wow
and the process is still ongoing, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ"......"in hope that the whole creation would be set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God"
wow oh wow
Did I say.........WOW!
hehe
I have heard iron sharpening iron for much of my life. I think I finally understand what it means...personally. I believe the Holy Spirit gives us each pieces and like a meal we should be sharing them with one another...building up the body of Christ in love and knowledge.
:dsunny:CHB :dsunny: All that i would humbly ad is "cause and effect."
I firmly believe God is CREATING us in his image, have come to understand this for quite awhile now. I think this is the purpose of the trials and tribulations we go through. God gives us the bad and the good to learn and grow by.
I was thinking this morning, if we have "limited will" wouldn't that have to be apart from God while we experienced this limited will? What do we have a limited will in? How would we know when we had it?
(Psalms 39:1-9) In verse 1 David says I WILL KEEP MY MOUTH WITH A BRIDLE. It sounds as if it is David who decides to keep his mouth shut but in verse 9 he says "I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; BECAUSE THOU DIDST IT".
I believe this is the way it is all through out the scriptures. It sounds like we have a limited, or free will but when examining the whole scheme of things it all comes down to the above verses.
The brothers of Joseph thought they were acting on their own when the sold Joseph into Egypt and it seems they were but in the end of things Joseph understood that it was all in the plan of God (Gen. 50:20) "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good".
This is the way I understand all things to be. We think and plan but God has certain things in mind and all of our planning and thinking is but a means to carry out all of His plans. We just think we are doing something to give ourselves an ego which is meant to be also. Because this is something we need to learn about as well.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 28, 2012, 08:49:22 PM
Quote from: dajomaco] on October 28, 2012, 07:23:07 PM
I have this notion that in molecular science ,
atoms, protons that sort of thing.
That from the foundations of the earth every molecule
that exists is where it is ordained to be at given point in time.
(please let me know if I should put IMO in front of objective statements)
We have no freewill to effect these molecules,
only the ability to observe these, actions or reactions of molecules.
Once these molecules are observed .
We have one hundred percent free will to try to discover there purpose.
I ask myself, do I observe these molecules because it is only me that wants to, or does God have a purpose in mind that causes me to observe them?
Quote from: dajomaco
We have free will to search with expectations to find the purpose of God.
Gods purpose is his will. We can find his will and say I have discovered the will of God.
God can show me his will and I can say that I have discovered the will of God.
I ask myself again, is it me or does God want me to find out his will? Does God put in in my heart and mind to search out his will?
quote author=dajomaco]
I will to speak in the first person here, God created me in His image, He has a will
I have a will. With in the back drop or scenery of Gods sovereignty
(atoms and Molecules) .I have been given the free will to discover my Purpose.
I will discover and have. That I can not discover my ultimate purpose until
I discover Gods purpose, and that his purpose was ultimate (was is and always will be).
God put in my mind and heart, when he blew life in to the dust, my desire to know
who I am. Science has proven dust ( atoms and molecules).I must search for my own identity in the unproven science of Life. Quote from: dajomaco
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.
Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us"?
CHB
We have the free will to believe in that ,which God has not given us.
Eternal Torment. Quote from: dajomaco
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.
It is not important to me if everyone puts IMO in front of what they type, altho I tend to do so. However, after reading all your posts, I have seen a lot of philosophy, which does not invalidate anything anyone has said to this point but......
The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".
Thank you Eaglesway for recognizing the Love of wisdom in my posts :cloud9:
...this exercize has built into i t's construction a will 'not' of the Father...adversarial will..so to speak..
that can be examined and followed unto it's conclusion/death. But always He has set limits
unto the extent of the 'destructiveness' of these adverse leadings. Parameters if you will...
this far..and no farther....'your battle was won in Him before ever the wrestling began
Ultimately .....this whole exercize proves the truth,wisdom,righteousness and love of God..and His
express will,AS WORTHY SOVEREIGN......
the 'evil' part of the exercize and expierence of it PROVES GOD AND DEFINES HIM AND ALL OF
HIS WISDOM..POWER RIGHTEOUSNESS JUSTICE AND LOVE....AS BEING
FAR ABOVE ALL....AND DESERVING OF ALL HONOUR AND SOVEREIGNTY OVER ALL CREATION...
thus A BEAUTIFUL NAME[and allthat the name entails] FOR HIMSELf
SALVATION FROM THEWILL ADVERSE TO GOD...DELIVERANCE
REMOVE A SPIRIT OF REBELLION FROM A SON...HAVE THEM COME INTO AGREEMENT/UNION
SEE EYE TO EYE...HEART TO HEART..AND YOU HAVE RECONCILIATION.............ALL IN ALL
Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2012, 04:57:02 PM
I firmly believe God is CREATING us in his image, have come to understand this for quite awhile now. I think this is the purpose of the trials and tribulations we go through. God gives us the bad and the good to learn and grow by.
I was thinking this morning, if we have "limited will" wouldn't that have to be apart from God while we experienced this limited will? What do we have a limited will in? How would we know when we had it?
(Psalms 39:1-9) In verse 1 David says I WILL KEEP MY MOUTH WITH A BRIDLE. It sounds as if it is David who decides to keep his mouth shut but in verse 9 he says "I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; BECAUSE THOU DIDST IT".
I believe this is the way it is all through out the scriptures. It sounds like we have a limited, or free will but when examining the whole scheme of things it all comes down to the above verses.
The brothers of Joseph thought they were acting on their own when the sold Joseph into Egypt and it seems they were but in the end of things Joseph understood that it was all in the plan of God (Gen. 50:20) "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good".
This is the way I understand all things to be. We think and plan but God has certain things in mind and all of our planning and thinking is but a means to carry out all of His plans. We just think we are doing something to give ourselves an ego which is meant to be also. Because this is something we need to learn about as well.
CHB
:dsunny:
CHB, I'm still not sure where we disagree. I believe God directs our steps, and that our limited will within God's sovereignty is muddled...mentally it can be hard to seperate out the two. But, I truly struggle with the idea of being a puppet on a string...and pointing to God when I sin.
James 1:13 tells us this...
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Did God place us in these fragile vessels of flesh...with the deck stacked against us? I have to believe so. Did we have a choice in the matter? I believe not. But, within this world God has placed us in as our teaching ground...we must have some ability to navigate within the boundries God allows.
I have a system set up for my children. I give them each a very healthy allowance. But, they are responsible for taking care of all their needs and wants with that money outside of food and shelter. I have set up a learning situation for them. Now, some would argue the sysem I have set up for my children isn't fair...they are very young (8 and 9). I suggest lessons learned by failure are often the most valuable. So, when they mismanage their money and do not have finances to do the things they want, or buy the things they may need...who is to blame? Myself who placed my children into that learning situation? Or my children for mismanaging their money? I have defined the boundries, I won't let them stumble too far outside of the box I have created for them. But, they are free to roam within it...and learn from it.
Hi Shawn,
Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.
I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.
You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".
Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2012, 08:26:52 PM
Hi Shawn,
Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.
I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.
You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".
Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.
CHB
:happyclap: Glory :happyclap:
Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2012, 08:26:52 PM
Hi Shawn,
Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.
I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.
Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.
CHB
Buttressing your point:
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil & on the good & sendeth rain on the just & on the unjust" Matt 5:45 KJ
To be followed up by:
"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine & does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house on a rock: And the rain descended & the floods came & the winds blew & beat upon that house,; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And everyone that hears these sayings of mine& does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand.....
KJ 7:24-26
Without a doubt God has planned all the storms that descended on all of mankind, to test them, just & unjust alike. Hurricane Sandy is presently descending on the just & unjust alike, we will see who even among the just may find their homes & property washed into oblivion as well as the unjust, so it is with our moral conduct & our realationship with our Father of whom those who are his children.
Basically it appears almost as if he has placed us all onto the same interstellar space rock to observe the differences, or similarities of our conduct under the most adverse of circumstances. And while we may not like the idea of having been born here, and if God left us a choice to either be here or not be here, this rock would never have become populated, because who really wants to live with the pain we so frequently must endure. So he has a definite plan behind all the pain we suffer which Satan & his demonic minions have never experienced.
Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2012, 08:26:52 PM
Hi Shawn,
Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.
I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.
You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".
Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.
CHB
So our defense should be God made me do it? While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write. When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so. Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.
... correct response imo is God subjected me to vanity[a will contrary to His own/death]
in order to set the whole creation free into the Glorious Freedom of the Sons of God.
anything not of the will of the Father is vanity...=will not bear fruit/come to an end
Quote from: shawn
So our defense should be God made me do it? While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write. When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so. Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.
Do you think it is through your own efforts that you are capable of writing? Or your own thoughts as to what you write? Well, of course it is of your own thoughts but have you ever wondered why you think the things you do?
Would it be so awful to know that God did control what we thought, or wrote?
Psalms 139 comes to mind
O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knoweest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquanted with all my ways. FOR THERE IS NOT A WORD IN MY TONGUE BUT, LO, O, LORD, THOU KNOWEST IT ALTOGETHER. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
(Verse 14-16) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret , and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN, which in CONTINUANCE WERE FASHIONED, when as yet there was none of them.
Reading this makes me think that if God knew all about me before I was born, I believe he had to have planned everything about me "when there was none of them".
CHB
I am probably somewhat ignorant, I will admit myself, but WHERE in the Bible does it reveal that man has "a will," other than the objective of the Creator? I am not foolish enough to say that
man does not make choices, yet, NOT a choice without a "cause." Something or someone brings forth an obstacle(the cause) that produces man, whatever level of his intelligence, to make a choice.
To make a choice, there must be at least two options, the ball is in man's court, he will make a decision because of that obstacle.
If a man is NOT born again, crucified with Christ, a new creature, with the mind of Christ.....that soul is offered many options; Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
I Can Do Nothing Of Myself.......Jo.5:10 Jo.5:30 Jo.15:5 Jesus himself said, I can do nothing of my self, why does man believe that he can do anything of himself?
The entire thought that man, as a single unit, can possibly work without a CAUSE for direction IMO is just silly.
Thought provoking Micah.
Since we know Jesus said he could do nothing on his own
and he also said "not my will, but yours O Father"
we could say that Jesus had free will but chose not to exercise it.
So if we choose to do something on our own not the will of the Father, it is sin.
"Whatever is not of the spirit is sin.
Just :2c:
But who has said man works without a cause? No one. "For from him and Through Him and To Him are all things". The only question, or differentiation is to whether GOD ALLOWS man a certain latitude between one extreme (absolute control) or another (free will), that "in between" being the stewardship over his own soul that God has granted him in order to teach him how to become like the Father. In that will of man(a man determines his path) God is ALWAYS ACTIVE(but God directs his steps) and ACTIVELY TEACHING. It seems as if we are LOCKED into simple black and white understandings of things the word calls mystery, leaving no such polar extreme of understanding unchallenged.
Of course, as has been said before in the thread several times already, there is no question about the cause(God's sovereign will) and the effect(the ultimate reconciliation and restoration of all). We are simply discussing the process, and we have different views on that.
If we just stand in the extremes and parrot them without regard to the scriptures, then there is a sort of pointless dogmatism that profits no one
Remember, Although the scripture says, "I can of my own self do nothing" and "the Father in me does the works"
It is also written, " The Father loves the Son because he only does those things that please the Father", "Nevertheless not my will but Yours be done", indicating that struggle in which Jesus overcame, and calls us to do the same through the provision of grace and the spirit of God-
So, all I am saying is, there is a discussion to be had between the extremes where the real meat of the word and wisdom from above is waiting, because we know so much less than we think we do, we have so much more to learn, and we hold the keys to the unfolding revelation of God together in fellowship, in midrash, in speaking the truth in love, in the exploration of it all. :o) Peace.
also....any choosing is not dependant on he that desires..but on God.WHO DOES THE CHOOSING..because...
BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE GOOD OR BAD........IN ORDER THAT THE CHOOSING BE GOD'S
indeed...He holds sway over the lump..one marred in His hand..another for noble use
Was Esau exhibiting free will or inadvertantly doing God's will?
Gen 25:29-34
One day, Jacob was cooking some stew, when Esau came home hungry and said, "I'm starving to death! Give me some of that red stew right now!" That's how Esau got the name "Edom." Jacob replied, "Sell me your rights as the first-born son." "I'm about to die," Esau answered. "What good will those rights do me?" But Jacob said, "Promise me your birthrights, here and now!" And that's what Esau did. Jacob then gave Esau some bread and some of the bean stew, and when Esau had finished eating and drinking, he just got up and left, showing how little he thought of his rights as the first-born.
Bingo! Prophecy fulfilled. Esau probably had no idea that he was making a choice to fulfill God's will. He probably just thought he was making a choice to fill his stomach. Nevertheless, he sold his birthright. Let's go back to the end of that last line. Here is how the King James Version rendered it:
Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
Esau hated his birthright. Or, did he? If Esau despised his birthright, he had a funny way of showing it when he went to his father. Esau said, "My brother deserves the name Jacob, because he has already cheated me twice. The first time he cheated me out of my rights as the first-born son, and now he has cheated me out of my blessing." T
People who absolutely control their children wind up with resentful, emotionally crippled adult children. A good parent learns to yield sovereignty to a child as the child's ability to govern it properly increases. This is dealt with in Galataians 4 and the result of it is seen in Romans 8. Paul talks about babes, immature, misunderstanding God's purposes and untrustworthy for the greater gifts. He also talks about mature sons, walking in the Spirit. What stewardship we have is an accountable responsibility by which God is teaching us to grow up into the Head, to be like Jesus- who is the image of God.
Deep down we all sense this responsibility to grow and we see it witnessed to over and over again in the scriptures, regardless of what our theories about how it is accomplished may be.
"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
(Eph 4:14-15)
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
(Rom 12:1-3)
You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
(Jas 4:3-10)
The Father earnestly desires sons and daughters into whose hands He can entrust the powers of the age to come. If Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered, perhaps we learn also, to humble ourselves, to bring our will to God as an offering, so that as our interests align with His out of the maturing of our hearts, He in return grants us even more of freedom, along with the privileges of Sonship, which are those works which were finished from the foundation of the world. YIELD your body as a living sacrifice, DRAW NEAR to God, and He will draw near to you. SUBMIT to God.......
These verse tell only half the story, of course. The WHOLE STORY is like the two sides of a coin that must be spent in order to purchase the prized possession. For some that is knowledge, for some that is affection, for some that is the testimony that there works are counted pleasing by the Father.
Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 30, 2012, 01:36:36 AM
Was Esau exhibiting free will or inadvertantly doing God's will?
Perhaps both :o)
"He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will"
the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so
great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........
but 'everything is possible with God' even what is impossible with men..........
total Sovereignty
WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU
it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 01:48:17 AM
Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
So now you get into the sticky issue of whom it is he has "foreknown"? Here we must get into
predestination of course. I have a view of this, but how do you see it? Is it only the Body of Christ (Christian Church)? Don't forget, Jeremiah was never of the Body of Christ......
"It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks".
When a person turns their will against God's will, they are "kicking against the pricks".
"The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways"
The correction, or "kolassis" of God often falls on the rebel soul by allowance.
"The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them. "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
(Luk 15:12-13)
'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."' "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
(Luk 15:18-20)
Here we see how the Father allows the child to exercise his will freely, and yet still the end result is the same as if He had controlled the child. The son grows into the image of Christ, wisdom, humility, devotion rise up like a phoenix out of the ashes of his rebellion, repentance found by the allowances of God, who cause all things to work according to the counsel of His will.
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
" but WHERE in the Bible does it reveal that man has "a will," other than the objective of the Creator? "
Micah
liked that JC.
and there ye have! Firstborn of the dead...the proper attitude and mind of Christ....
I am unworthy of being called your son..make me as one of your servant.
Christ,being in the nature of the devine....did not suffer a seizure..or consider himself as equal to God
....he submitted himself as servant..and suffered in his obediance[perfection]
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 02:05:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 01:48:17 AM
Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
So now you get into the sticky issue of whom it is he has "foreknown"? Here we must get into predestination of course. I have a view of this, but how do you see it? Is it only the Body of Christ (Christian Church)? Don't forget, Jeremiah was never of the Body of Christ......
I was hoping someone would bring that up Paul :o) Predestination and the foreknowledge of God are about everyone and evrything that happens, IMO. I just don't think we understand how it works to well. From our lower height we seem to think that predestination and any stewardship over our own will are mutually exclusive. I do not see that as an absolute. I like to look at the word PREDESTINATION as exactly what it reads.
The DESTINATION is PRE determined. God shall be ALL IN ALL. The process is one of TEACHING and EDIFYING. We learn by the things we suffer. We choose and our choices bring accountability upon us, nevertheless- GOD IS CAUSING ALL THINGS TO WORK ACCORDING TO THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL.
The idea that predestination, calling, election are antithetical to a stewardship and accountability over our own will is, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of HOW God accomplishes His will. His ways are higher than our ways.
I certainly do not claim to understand it all. I just trust the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit, and what I read in the word leads me to believe that number 1, it is not all that simple, - and number 2, since we don't see as God does from the height of omniscience, we must deal with one another as those who have wills to be exhorted, forgiven, resisted or assisted, edified, etc.
In other words, we cannot walk the walk from theoretical theological absolutes.
Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said
'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"
If we all acknowledge that God is sovereign and His will is absolute, what if His will is that we become ABSOLUTELY FREE.
"For freedom Christ has set you free, why submit again to a yoke of bondage"
"If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. "
(Rom 8:20-21)
Roman 8 seems to say that this is the whole purpose of everything.
John, I think there is only God's will..and the adversarial will[satn captive to his will]...but
I think we can yeild or resist either one to a limited extent, these two contrary wills and natures[tokogae]
and greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world....showing victory/overcome
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 02:20:58 AM
liked that JC.
and there ye have! Firstborn of the dead...the proper attitude and mind of Christ....
I am unworthy of being called your son..make me as one of your servant.
Christ,being in the nature of the devine....did not suffer a seizure..or consider himself as equal to God
....he submitted himself as servant..and suffered in his obediance[perfection]
:thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 02:29:51 AM
John, I think there is only God's will..and the adversarial will[satn captive to his will]...but
I think we can yeild or resist either one to a limited extent, these two contrary wills and natures[tokogae]
and greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world....showing victory/overcome
sheila, I'd never thought of that before. John and I had talked about God's will and man's will, and how our will needs to (and will be) shaped into God's will - either now as sons, or later "as through [spiritual] fire". Your view is interesting and will give more thought. Thanks :)
Another variation of that may be, that when we are not in/submitted to God's will, then we're "submitted" to the adversaries will - which we call "man's will" or "free will". This does get complicated. I think it partly depends on definitions, and certainly on variety of understanding. I can see why there's little agreement on it (historically). :whistleshake:
:iagree: JC
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 02:24:33 AM
Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said
'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"
Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man? Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.
I believe..that when we are out of the will of the Father[do not obey] we by defall[t] become captive
to the will of the adversary......thus the FREEDOM HE DESIRES FOR US...absolute that John spoke of.
but none of you have resisted sin to the extent of the spilling of your blood....hmmmn
He first washes the inside of the cup.......truth/love of the inward parts.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 02:45:01 AM
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 02:24:33 AM
Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said
'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"
Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man? Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.
Actually, IMO, more admission is given to man's will. Jesus said, "Yours is not the will of God, but the will of man". Jesus was teaching Peter, how to keep his will free of the adversary. Peter saw his dreams of ruling in an earthly renewal of Israel crumbling as Jesus testified to his coming death. This was likely the motive behind his statement.
IMO. I believe there are three wills, the heart of God, the heart of man and in the heart of the adversary. When Joshua exhorts Israel to "Choose ye this day" he was speaking to their will. When Isaiah says, "Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart", he was speaking to man's will. When Jesus said, "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done" He was speaking of man's will in relationship to God's will, and establishing a distinction between the two, since Jesus was never under the will of the adversary.
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 12:35:26 AM
Quote from: shawn
So our defense should be God made me do it? While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write. When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so. Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.
Do you think it is through your own efforts that you are capable of writing? Or your own thoughts as to what you write? Well, of course it is of your own thoughts but have you ever wondered why you think the things you do?
Would it be so awful to know that God did control what we thought, or wrote?
Psalms 139 comes to mind
O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knoweest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquanted with all my ways. FOR THERE IS NOT A WORD IN MY TONGUE BUT, LO, O, LORD, THOU KNOWEST IT ALTOGETHER. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
(Verse 14-16) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret , and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN, which in CONTINUANCE WERE FASHIONED, when as yet there was none of them.
Reading this makes me think that if God knew all about me before I was born, I believe he had to have planned everything about me "when there was none of them".
CHB
Would it be awful to think God controlled what I think? Yes, that would disturb me a great deal...At least my evil thoughts. When I think impure thoughts...that is God putting those in my head? I can't accept that.
I also don't believe foreknowledge is the same thing as micromanagement of actions.
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Another variation of that may be, that when we are not in/submitted to God's will, then we're "submitted" to the adversaries will - which we call "man's will" or "free will". This does get complicated. I think it partly depends on definitions, and certainly on variety of understanding. I can see why there's little agreement on it (historically). :whistleshake:
Yes James, I agree about it depending on the 'definitions' we have coming from different perceptions, and then trying to communicate and share in an edifying way. I think it is very important that we don't get caught up in the 'semantics' of it. These conversation often seem to run towards the 'split hairs' of the terminology. The big picture is, of course, more important.
..and I hear you Micah...the creature was subjected unto vanity by the will of God......
but man does not live by bread alone..but by every word of God....and surely we know
that it is the WILL OF GOD THAT WE OVERCOME AND BE SET FREE THROUGH CHRIST
yet we are not all set free, because some of us choose to stay in prison :o) We then incur consequences, "Because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth".
What does this mean- Jesus does not love me any more? Of course not. What it does mean is that my richness is really poverty, and my tepid heart towards God makes me unfit for service.
"Except you repent I will remove your lampstand from its place"
We do not here see Jesus dealing with the churches according to predestination. We here him calling them to make decisions, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts".
I wonder if the difference between the views is somewhat connected to whether we are speaking of "Today", or speaking in theoretical terms of "all time"- the omniscient view of God.
To me it seems obvious that we must look from both points of view. :o)
He says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts"
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:11:53 AM
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances. If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 01:58:38 AM
the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so
great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........
but 'everything is possible with God' even what is impossible with men..........
total Sovereignty
WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU
it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.
IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.
You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.
There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:11:53 AM
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances. If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.
Paul, as far as I know, I didn't "cognitively" know "going before" was the actual definition from the Greek. But it's the best way God's led me to understand it at this point. It leaves no one out, but it does take into account things like the elect, predestination, the order/turn, and the ultimate reconciliation, IMO.
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:11:53 AM
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances. If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.
This makes perfect sense to me.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2012, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 01:58:38 AM
the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so
great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........
but 'everything is possible with God' even what is impossible with men..........
total Sovereignty
WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU
it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.
IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.
You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.
There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.
Any of us can believe ANYTHING we want, but the Word of God is our counselor, by the illumniating Spirit.
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:11:53 AM
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances. If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.
I agree unless you look at the context of passages surrounding predestination. I believe that is why the translators chose the word predestination.
Romans 9
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
This passage talks about active preparation...objects of wrath and mercy...and it being God's choice. In this case I don't believe predestination is merely foreknowledge but an active creational effort. Each of us serving a purose in this spiritual education process.
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 02:45:01 AM
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 02:24:33 AM
Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said
'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"
Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man? Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.
I.M.Philosophical O.
Satan was disarmed .Jesus knew that. Peter did not know fully.
Satan with a charming voice wispered in Peters ear," this is a test to see if you will break Gods Laws ,don't be a law breaker,remeber the other test when
you failed and denied Jesus to the little girl by the fire,three times. Pass this test deny that you will do as the lord asks three more times.
He did as directed by satan and told the Lord, no way was he going to do what the Lord asked. To which Jesus replied get behind me Satan.
you misread me Daj....God's wrath is directed toward Satan and his deceptions......
men merely serve as 'vessels' /examples of this spirit in operation. All men shall be
raised up in Christ...and no sin counted against them. So what if God ..the potter ,who designed
this exercize in good and evil. chose to teach through contrast of positive/negative in this way.
we are all the work of His hands.
we know that God is no respector of persons...and as all mankind has bore the image of the
corrupt[death] so too shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.
it is impossible to teach by contrast if all are evil all the time..or all perfect all the time.......most of us
are a mix of good/evil at best.[I know that in my flesh nothing good dwells there]
Did He not bind up all men in sin? In order to show grace to all? so no flesh shall boast?
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 05:49:52 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2012, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 01:58:38 AM
the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so
great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........
but 'everything is possible with God' even what is impossible with men..........
total Sovereignty
WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU
it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.
IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.
You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.
There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.
Any of us can believe ANYTHING we want, but the Word of God is our counselor, by the illumniating Spirit.
I agree we have free will to believe what we want.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I decide: and my tribunal is just; because I seek not mine own choice, but the choice of the Father
which hath sent me.
Luke 22:42 Saying Father, if thou be disposed, remove this cup from me: moreover, besides not my choice, but thine, be done
Would this be a proper understanding?
Micah...this jumped out at me..reading your post.
the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 04:22:09 PM
Micah...this jumped out at me..reading your post.
the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own
:dsunny:
Cause
Noun –reason- occasion –motive-ground- case –matter.
Verb –bring about – make- occasion – produce induce.
It is also written, " The Father loves the Son because he only does those things that please the Father", "Nevertheless not my will but Yours be done", indicating that struggle in which Jesus overcame, and calls us to do the same through the provision of grace and the spirit of God-
The old man the new man.
The old man will answer the questions his way.
The new man will answer the question his way.
The questions will be answered by who we identify with the Old or The New.
Past, present and future.
Past ......We know that everything that has happened already is predestined.
Present...... Now not ten seconds ago. We do not know if what we think
we are about to do is predestined because it hasn't happened.
Future.... Requires faith. The new man has faith in God through the Spirit.
The Old man has faith in his powers of observation and makes a scientific
plan. But there is no scientific absolutes about the future.
The old man has faith in science for the future.
He is left with his calculations to buttress his insecurity of not knowing the future.
The anxiety created by relying on these calculations is further exasperated
by the wisdom of this world Satan.
IMO we have the free will to be Old or New.
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 04:26:29 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 04:22:09 PM
Micah...this jumped out at me..reading your post.
the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own
:dsunny:
Is it possible while seeking the will of God and not our own.
That His will and my will become One?
OH YES!!!!! And you shall see Him face to face..and when you do...YOU SHALL BE JUST LIKE HIM!!!!
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
Senseless... Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.
Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."
Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.
When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
Did the Father have a Will?
Did Jesus have a Will?
Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father.
so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.
:eek: can two walk togather unless they are in agreement?
sin has it's own 'will' in our flesh...this is the bondage/slavery man in the corrupt image
has bore..taken captive of satn to do works[sin] which bring death. This is what we have all
been bought back from[redeemed] AND HE SHALL ACCOMPLISH IT
THE CAUSE...to glorify God or yourself....Thou shall have no other gods before me
Rev 22;17 The Spirit and the bride say'COME" and let him who hears say ,'Come"....
Whoever is thirsty let him, Come!
and WHOEVER WISHES[desires/wants/chooses?] let him take the free gift of the water of life.
for it is God who causes us to will and desire to do His good pleasure.
desire is a seed...that produces fruit...there are two seeds....the serpents seed..and the promised
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 05:17:59 PM
OH YES!!!!! And you shall see Him face to face..and when you do...YOU SHALL BE JUST LIKE HIM!!!!
:dsunny: :happyclap:
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 05:45:09 AM
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 02:11:53 AM
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All. :2c:
Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances. If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.
Paul, as far as I know, I didn't "cognitively" know "going before" was the actual definition from the Greek. But it's the best way God's led me to understand it at this point. It leaves no one out, but it does take into account things like the elect, predestination, the order/turn, and the ultimate reconciliation, IMO.
Well, I got real curious about your wording, so I went to Strong's Concordance & checked the Greek words translated into English as "predestination" & it basically means just what you stated,
preceding before, or
preceding in front of. 4309 is formed from 4253 [fore, in front of, prior to] & 3724 [appoint, mark].
I think this casts a somewhat different light of usage of the Greek words versus the commonly held understanding of the English definition. I guess we'll probably need to hash this one out as we move forward.........
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2012, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
Senseless... Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.
Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."
Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.
When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
Did the Father have a Will?
Did Jesus have a Will?
Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father.
so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.
"Did the Father have a Will?" THE Father IS the WILL.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
"Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father."
Joh 10:30
I and the Father are one.'
Listento me everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going
into him. Rather it is what comes out of a man tht makes him unclean.
heart condition...the desire of the heart. The heart can be deceitful..for there are two seeds
in it. the serpents seed deceives the heart..the promised seed leads the heart like a shepherd
in the way of Love for the Father and fellow men. see temptation in the wilderness
it appears to me that it comes down to..which come first, the chicken or the egg...and yet we know
we come to love Him,cause 'CAUSE" He LOVED US FIRST. I chose you,you did NOT 'CHOOSE" me
and if He loved us first..then we are the firstfruits of His LOVE...even a vessel of mercy....
and it is Not that we say'He loves me..and Not you...for we know that He shall gather them all under His wings
like a hen gathers her chicks. And HE WILL SHOW HIS LOVE TO THEM..not only that...His love
decrees that we serve as His son did..that even though we be put to death by those in ignorance
we not count it against them..and be perfected in this suffering.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
:banana: :thumbsup:
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
This is just a question not an argument.
It can only become an argument (and it won't).
If we have two opposing answers so far we have no answers.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 03:07:15 AM
yet we are not all set free, because some of us choose to stay in prison :o) We then incur consequences, "Because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth".
What does this mean- Jesus does not love me any more? Of course not. What it does mean is that my richness is really poverty, and my tepid heart towards God makes me unfit for service.
"Except you repent I will remove your lampstand from its place"
We do not here see Jesus dealing with the churches according to predestination. We here him calling them to make decisions, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts".
I wonder if the difference between the views is somewhat connected to whether we are speaking of "Today", or speaking in theoretical terms of "all time"- the omniscient view of God.
To me it seems obvious that we must look from both points of view. :o)
He says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts"
Here John is speaking to the Jews who are under the New Covenant which still has laws attached to it. Faith, baptism, Lord's Supper, do's, don'ts etc. Which is another subject, but anytime you see works involved it sounds as if man will have to use his will to obey them.
Man's will, free will, whatever you want to call it, is nothing but works.
CHB
what about the 'FREE GIFT" in the CAUSE OF GOD'S LOVE.........I LOVE THEM OF MY OWN FREE WILL
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 06:03:18 PM
it appears to me that it comes down to..which come first, the chicken or the egg...and yet we know
we come to love Him,cause 'CAUSE" He LOVED US FIRST. I chose you,you did NOT 'CHOOSE" me
and if He loved us first..then we are the firstfruits of His LOVE...even a vessel of mercy....
The firstfruits of His Love, really like the way you worded that, thanks again Sheila! :HeartThrob:
IS LOVE A FREE GIFT?...A TOKEN OF OUR INHERITANCE IN HIM??
three things remain..faith,hope and love...the greatest of these is LOVE
that which 'remains' is eternal..not temporal...
God IS LOVE..it pursues it's own cause..it never fails it IS PERFECT......
every PERFECT PRESENT[FREE GIFT] COMES FROM ABOVE
I have asked this question at times about the soul(and I do not want to even get close to going there!)
Where is the Bible was man given a "will"?
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 05:50:24 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2012, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
Senseless... Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.
Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."
Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.
When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
Did the Father have a Will?
Did Jesus have a Will?
Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father.
so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.
"Did the Father have a Will?" THE Father IS the WILL.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
"Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father."
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
Scriptures clearly indicate that the Father has a will .
For this is the will of My Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
THE Father IS the WILL.I tried to be a diligent Berean and find this Statement in Scriptures but could not.
would you be able to help.
God is with you in everything you do.
God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?
God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
God is God
God is faithful
God is the head of Christ.
God is good
God is light
God is love.
No one knows who the
Son is except the Father, and who the
Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son desires to reveal Him."
I am going away and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the
Father is greater than I.
and you will leave Me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the
Father is with Me.
Just a question. Did Jesus surrender any thing to God?
I don't know Micah..seems he come into being by the will of God..then was taken captive to the will
of the adversary....then bought back and received the free gift of the free will of God.
there is FREEDOM PROMISED the glorious freedom of the sons of God..to love of their
own free will? as God does? to be perfect expressions of Love?
if Christ set you free,ye shall be free indeed!! Into the Kingdom of THE LOVE OF THE SON.
LOVE SAVES LIFE...CALLS BACK THOSE CONDEMNED TO DEATH.
THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST LOVE...sin is to miss the mark/fall short of love.
love is truthful..not a lie...fullness of Christ is perfect love
it appears that the seed of the adversary is hatred,selfishness,murder,etc of man.....
and it appears the seed of God is love kindness the saving of the life of man
we are the object of love for the one..and the object of hatred to the other.
what is man..that thou art mindful of him?
what a strange 'creature' we are....
creature- a person completely dependant on,or owing his success position to another
that's a pretty accurate definition to me.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 06:46:32 PM
I have asked this question at times about the soul(and I do not want to even get close to going there!)
Where is the Bible was man given a "will"?
Then God said, "Let Us make man in
Our image, according to
Our likeness.
They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth,[h] and the creatures that crawl
on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image;
He created him in the image of God;
He created them male and female.
Rule ..Exercise ultimate power or authority over to impose ones will over
seems to me,Jesus said...the Father loves me..because I lay my life down willingly. No-one takes it from me.
is that what it means to have 'life' in yourself? the willingness..the free will[no-one takes it from me]
Daj..very good insight.......when man fell and the will of the adversary ruled[all the kingdoms are mine]
NOW my kingdom is not from this source,
Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
John 7:17
If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority
Luke 6:47
Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
Sometimes I think Jesus tailors his message to the audience.
If unbeliever, then respond with My God sends me the doctrine, believe the works if you dont believe me
If believer, say that I teach and teach these two commandments , they believe that Jesus come forth from God
Quote from: eaglesway on October 29, 2012, 06:46:41 AM
Really, very cool Shawn. Like, I can still hear that voice echoing down through the ages past and the ages to come, "Let Us Make Man In Our Image"........ Wow
and the process is still ongoing, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ"......"in hope that the whole creation would be set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God"
wow oh wow
Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.
Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.
Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!
Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.
You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.
Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.
Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.
Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.
Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.
But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.
This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?
Quote from: legoman on October 30, 2012, 08:04:13 PM
Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.
........and what do you think this "very good purpose" is?
Quote from: legoman on October 30, 2012, 08:22:25 PM
Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.
Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!
Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.
You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.
Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.
Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.
Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.
Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.
But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.
This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?
Amen!! This reminded me of a song "I can't Even Walk Without Him Holding My Hand".
CHB
and so,we now understand why Father chose to teach His children using good evil contrast
what an expierence/exercize
Unless I had cried,you would not have wiped the tears away
Unless I had mourned,I would not have had the solace of your comforts
Unless that I had died,I would not have had the life in Christ
Lest I be strong,I would have not stayed on your strength
Would I be gloriying in your salvation if I had not been in peril?
Had I not been weak,sick..helpless and frail.....
Would I have joyed in Your Might,strength and healing?
Had I not been reduced to nothing,would I have known you are everything?
Had I not been foolish would I have appreciated your wisdom
Had you not loved me,how would I have known love?
How would I have loved you,if I had never known you?
If your son hadn't revealed you to me,revealed your love,how else would I have known you
For to whomever you reveal yourself,Love's Way does work
Had I not glimpsed your face,would desire for you had burned in my heart?
Had I not seen Your Beauty Power Justice and Love..wouldn't I still be groping in the dark......
for what I know not
My desire burns..my longing has but ONE! What can I bring? what have I fit to give such One as this?
My heart would that I give you! My heart is mine to give!!
But wait!! my heart is an unfaithful heart!!
O'LOVE that I take again!!
Grant me afaithful loving heart!!..so that I have a fit gift to give
Let me see the love light in your eyes for me..let it be..eye to eye that we gaze upon each other.
that I may not be ashamed of what I have to give you.
For then I should truly die...of a broken heart.....
[Of Love's Perfection}
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 07:12:57 PM
seems to me,Jesus said...the Father loves me..because I lay my life down willingly. No-one takes it from me.
is that what it means to have 'life' in yourself? the willingness..the free will[no-one takes it from me]
This is what has always seemed to me to be the lesson of Jesus the Son and the gracious process of the Potter with the Clay. As we are transformed into His image, we are learning to lay down our lives willingly, freely.
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
(Rom 12:1-2)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who
will( thelo ethelo)have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:3-4)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever
will(thelo ethelo), let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17)
will thelō ethelō
Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For
whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and
whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:24-25)
There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 08:58:26 PM
Quote from: legoman on October 30, 2012, 08:22:25 PM
Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.
Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!
Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.
You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.
Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.
Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.
Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.
Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.
But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.
This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?
Amen!! This reminded me of a song "I can't Even Walk Without Him Holding My Hand".
CHB
This is the LORD'S doing; It is marvelous in our eyes.
(Psa 118:23)
Regardless of what we, individually, believe about how we all get there- maturity is, in a word, humility- and the realization that 'without Him I can do nothing.'
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 10:19:34 PM
will thelō ethelō
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:24-25)
There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.
In Strong's I looked up the word: #2309- It seems to most closely match the English word "choice" or "desire". I read this like God has "choices" & "desires", and man likewise, we just don't often make the right choices, God always does but appears to not always enforce his "choices" or "desires" upon us.
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Quote from: legoman on October 30, 2012, 08:04:13 PM
Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.
........and what do you think this "very good purpose" is?
To learn what good and evil is, and to learn how to be good, so we can learn and understand how to love, and come to know God, because God
is love. This is what being made in His image means.
I just saw an ad for the movie "Amazing Grace"
"You've found God, sir?"
"I think He found me".
Hallelujah!
When people stop believing in God,
they don't believe in nothing,
they believe in anything.
--G.K.Chesterton
which is to say, you are free to choose what you will be slave to...but you are going to be slave to something.
From: Paul, a servant of Jesus the Messiah, called to be an apostle and set apart for God's gospel, Rom 1:1
Romans 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: legoman on October 31, 2012, 03:16:29 AM
Quote from: Paul L on October 30, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Quote from: legoman on October 30, 2012, 08:04:13 PM
Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.
........and what do you think this "very good purpose" is?
To learn what good and evil is, and to learn how to be good, so we can learn and understand how to love, and come to know God, because God is love. This is what being made in His image means.
What you stated above is what I view as the necessary "process" via which there is a greater mission to be fulfilled. God created man in his image to rule the world as daj pointed out above in his previous post from Genesis. But what really is God's purpose in creating us to learn to "rule" over the earth? After all we won't be here for all of eternity, for Christ himself stated that "Heaven & Earth shall pass away....." Matt 5:18, Mk 3:31 . I'm presuming the "heaven" to which Christ makes reference is the location of the stellar universe in which our planet Earth is located, not that abode which is the domicile of the Elohim of creation.
Christ tells us to pray in a manner such that the Father's "will be done on earth as in heaven" Matt 6:10, that to me is a clear statement that our heavenly Father's "will" presently has a limited extant, that it does not pervade the four corners of the earth & also the vast expanse of the stellar universe.
Satan took 1/3 the host of heaven with him in rebellion at some point in the past. Where are these rebellious followers of Satan in residence? They are not in heaven with God, sure God allows Satan to present himself to appear in heaven from time to time, but only Satan, but he doesn't live there, he's been wandering to & fro about planet earth like a creature lost in a vast wilderness.
The Apostle Paul tells us we will judge angels, 1 Cor 6:3. This being the case, the question is: Why & where are they? Jude 6 & 2 Pet 2:4 tells us about angels reserved in chains under darkness until the time they are judged, hello 1 Cor 6:3 is that not us doing the judging? And don't you wonder the location of the "darkness" where rebellious spirit beings are presently being held in chains? I know I do.
Here's my point about our ultimate "mission". The Elohim Gods of creation intends to have all of creation restored, including those rebellious spirits being held by chains in a prison of darkness somewhere within the stellar universe. The stellar universe is an incredibly vast expanse of stars contained inside of galaxies too numerable for the human mind to count, yet Elohim God calls them all by name, Ps 147.4. While knowing the number of stars & calling them all by name, we are also informed in Job 25.5 that they are not pure in his sight, they are not pure because a third of them rebelled against God & are presently being held in chains in some dark expanse of the stellar universe, I say stellar universe because that is also Satan's abode even though he is not yet chained, he wanders within the earth, and apparently within the stellar expanse between earth & God's throne where he appears from time to time to make accusations against us, see Job 1:6-7.
Learning the difference between good & evil while on earth appears to be our training ground for judging the rebellious angels. The learning process comes partly from our experiences of physical pain to the central nervous system out of which we learn compassion towards others, judges often issue edicts out of compassion, but Satan (and all the rebellious angels) has no concept of compassion because he can feel no physical pain as we humans do. As we learn compassion while here on earth, we become qualified as rulers over those spirits held in chains & darkness, and it becomes our mission to them to bring them to repentance & restored to their Creator.
Does this seem to make sense?
As Bob once said
You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
Might have money and drugs at your commands, women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
You may be a state trooper, you might be an young turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be working in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
You may call me Terry, you may call me Jimmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say.
You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
Our mission is the same as Christ's............as He read from the scroll...THE LORD HAS ANNOINTED
ME to PREACH GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM FREEDOM
TO THE PRISONERS AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,TO RELEASE THE OPPRESSED
TO PROCLAIM THE YEAR OF THE LORD'S FAVOUR.
THE FAVOUR OF GOD..IS GOODWILL TOWARDS MEN..NOT SATAN...
FOR SATAN IS THE EVIL SPIRIT THAT BLINDED KILLED ROBBED AND THEIVED THE DOMINION FROM ADAM'S
PROGENCY..
MEN HAVE BEEN BOUND IN SLAVERY AND DARKNESS AND IMPRISONED BY SATAN......
WEARE TO JUDGE ANGELS..WHETHER THEY ARE FROM GOD OR THE EVIL ONE....
THE ACCUSOR OR REDEEMER OF MAN..OF THE LIE OR TRUTH..IS ITA DOCTRINE OF DEMONS
THAT KEEPS MAN IN BONDAGE/WORSHIP OF IDOLS/DEMONS OR OFC HRIST..THAT SETS FREE
IN TRUTH AND OVERCOMES THE DECEPTION OF HIM THAT DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD.
YOU NEED TO BE TRAINED OF HIM TO DISCERN BETWEEN THE TWO......
YOU NEED TO KNOW WHO THE ELECT AND CHOSEN ARE[TO INHERIT THE KINGDOM/EVEN MANKIND]
THEC HILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION ARE LIKE THE ANGELS/THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
ONCE YOU KNOW WHO IS TO RECEIVE THE PROMISES/SURE MERCIES OF DAVID AND TO WHOM
IT IS THAT MERCY IS SHOWN[MANKIND] I WILL SHOW MERCY TO WHOM I WILL SHOW MERCY...
THEN WE MAY BE USEFUL UNTO THE LORD TO DO HIS WILL....
THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN[PLEASE NOT SATAN LOST HIS
POSITION IN HEAVEN..AND JUDAS ON EARTH AS A REFLECTION OF THIS VERY THING.
MAN,IN THE IMAGE OF GOD IS ASPIRIT..IF NOT THE HE CAN NOT WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH
THE SPIRITSOF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT IS THE NEW CREATION/INCORRUPT IMAGE.
THERE ARE MEN WHO ARE BOUND AND IMPRISONED OF SATN[SEE CASTING OUT DEMONS
THAT OUR LORD DID WHEN HE WALKED AND FULFILLED HIS COMMISSION]
THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH...IS THE CASTING OUT
OUT OF THE EVIL TOOL/CONTRAST SPIRIT OF REBELLION...
WHEREVER THIS EVIL SPIRIT OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD IS IT IS BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER
THOSE BORN OF GOD CAN NOT SIN...THIS SPIRIT IS NOT OF GOD..BUT A NEGATIVE
CONTRAST TOOL. IT NEVER ENTERS GOD'S HEART TO BURN HIS CHILDREN IN FIRE
BUT HE WILLA NON-LIVING IMITATION EVIL TOOL
GOD'S FINGER
LUKE 11;20 BUT IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY THE FINGER OF GOD...
THEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME TO YOU
LUKE11;20 BUT SOME OF THEM SAID IT WAS BY MEANS OF BEELZEBUB, THE PRINCE OF DEMONS
HE IS DRIVING OUT DEMONS[LEST ANY THINK I HOLD TO A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS SPEAKING
OF SATAN/DEMONS TO BE CAST OUT FROM INHERITANCE] HE IS DRIVING OUT DEMONS.
JESUS KNEW THEIR THOUGHTS AND SAID TO THEM' ANY KINGDOM DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF
WILL FALL. IF SATN IS DIVIDED AGAINST HIMSELF HOW CAN HIS KINGDOM STAND[IRON/CLAY]
I SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THAT I DRIVE OUT DEMONS[NOT SHOWN MERCY] BY BEELZEBUB
NOW,IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY BEELZEBUB,WHOM DO YOUR FOLLOWERS DRIVE THEM OUT
[AS COUNTERFEIT LIES DOCTRINES OF DEMONS] SO THEN,THEY WILL BE YOUR JUDGES
BUT IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY THE FINGER OF GOD..THEN THE KINGDOM HAS COME TO YOU.
LOOK! SUDDENLY THE FINGERS OF A HUMAN HAND APPEARED AND WROTE ON THE
PLASTER OF THE WALL,NEAR THE LAMPSTAND IN THE ROYAL PALACE.......
GOD HAS NUMBERED THE DAYS OF YOUR REIGN AND BROUGHT IT TO AN END
YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED[WEIGHED ON SCALES]
YOUR KINGDOM IS DIVIDED[SHALL FALL]
MATTHEW 12;25-37 JESUSKNEW THEIR THOUGHTS[IT IS BY EVIL THAT SATAN IS NOT FORGIVEN/
OR DRIVEN OUT/TOLD TO DEPART]
V 31 AND SO I TELL YOU,EVERY SIN AND BLASPHEMY WILL BE FORGIVEN MEN..........
BUT THE BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 09:02:00 PM
and so,we now understand why Father chose to teach His children using good evil contrast
what an expierence/exercize
We his children are now, heirs no longer drinking milk
Scales lifted -eyes now see- past- through the contrast of good and evil.
Now soul focus is Love where there is no fear of lessons already learned
Thru the contrast of Good and evil
YES DAJ, WE MAY BE SEEING THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL[VALLEY OFSHADOW OF DEATH]
BUT SO MANY ARE IN DARKNESS.
ISAAIH 60 ARISE SHINE,FOR YOUR LIGHT HAS COME,AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD RISES
UPON YOU. SEE..DARKNESS COVERS THE EARTH AND THICK DARKNESS IS OVER THE PEOPLES
BUT THE LORD RISES UPON YOU AND HIS GLORY APPEARS OVER YOU,
NATIONS WILL COME TO YOUR LIGHT ND KINGS TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF YOUR DAWN
Quote from: Paul L on October 31, 2012, 01:35:25 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 10:19:34 PM
will thelō ethelō
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:24-25)
There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.
In Strong's I looked up the word: #2309- It seems to most closely match the English word "choice" or "desire". I read this like God has "choices" & "desires", and man likewise, we just don't often make the right choices, God always does but appears to not always enforce his "choices" or "desires" upon us.
I believe you are right, but God is the "cause" that effects our "choices."
I have no problem with that either.
I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.
WHAT ABOUT WILLFUL SIN? HEBREWS 10;26
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 11:06:12 PM
WHAT ABOUT WILLFUL SIN? HEBREWS 10;26
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Some "cause" showed it's self, imo. I believe we have the option of choice, something arose to make the desicion to sin
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Lust is certainly one cause, being yoked as it is to the will of man, and motivating the pursuit of his desires.
Gen. 2:7 Gen. 2:8-9 Gen.2:15-17 Gen. 2:18-25 Gen.3:1-7 With in this offering, is there any implication man was instilled with a will, be it free or other wise?
We know that the man had some knowledge, for he had named all the animals and knowledge means H3045 a primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)... cunning. (Gen.3:6 "saw")
To believe, assume, or contrive that the Lord God, after creating and making the works of Genesis 1
that He would give up His sovereign throne of authority to a "will" other than His, that would/could have the possibility of overthrowing His, for me is silly.
IMO, God could not be overthrown by any will, free or otherwise. The idea that God must control us in order to reconcile us is not an absolute logic chain by any means. God could set us totally free(which He hasn't yet, but He is in the process of doing) and still win us with the glory of His love and goodness eventually.
As I see it, the glorious liberty of the children of God is TOTAL FREEDOM FREELY YIELDED BACK TO GOD IN LOVE.
That is why we needed the law to show us the law doesnt work.......love does.
The truth is probably more like, God has given us enough rope to hang ourselves so that He can teach us how to yield our will to love. If I was intent on fellowship with someone I would want them to want to, not be forced to.
So also, in the love between a man and a woman, each wants the other to love them because they see the beauty within them and WANT TO share it, not HAVE TO. God seeks to AWAKEN OUR LOVE as a betrothed. His acts will continually lead us into places where we are meant to choose His love- or go one more time around the mountain.
Many verses have been presented that a reasonable, honest person could read towards man having been given a will by God. We just don't all see them the same- and that's OK, this is only a discussion :o)
I don't see how God could create man in His image and not give him a will.
The whole story of the garden is about how God set man up to disobey, so that He could teach man that love is the perfect obedience.
In fact, I think it is impossible to love without a will, or to give freely that which we have freely received.
The way I see it, Love aligns the will of man and the will of God in one accord- and then the glory falls and restoration and reconciliation multiply. They walked in the glorious liberty of the children of God. No one among them had any need. They were chosen, elect to discipleship and sonship, a learning process in which they matured as they yielded. Indeed, the whole creation is so ordained :o)
Isa 53:10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed--he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 31, 2012, 10:54:36 PM
I have no problem with that either.
I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.
But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.
I personally believe we can't define what "will" other than Rom 8:20 For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it). (WNT)
Now here we can see that what man is, is not by man's "choice," and man has no "will" in the sense his own creative desire, but exists in the WILL of the Creator. And man (still the first Adam) is a sinning vessel. Note this not a PUPPET situation, I despise that silly immature mentality.
I do not see nor can I see where man has a "will" [a thought force of his own] man leans to make "choices" caused by pain, humor, sorrow, loss, gain, weather, nature, fear, love, circumstances, etc.
Micah :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
Micah :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
:dsunny: I love why? Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Quote from: Paul L on November 01, 2012, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 31, 2012, 10:54:36 PM
I have no problem with that either.
I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.
But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.
My point is that there is sufficient evidence in context and definition to say "will". There is this myth that every word has an absolute meaning, yet you posit "choice" and "desire", both of which indicate and are extensions of "will". You can't choose anything without a "will", nor can you "desire." Anyhting.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
Micah :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction". As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."
However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.
How do you teach achild who has NO will
anything?
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2012, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: Paul L on November 01, 2012, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 31, 2012, 10:54:36 PM
I have no problem with that either.
I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.
But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.
My point is that there is sufficient evidence in context and definition to say "will". There is this myth that every word has an absolute meaning, yet you posit "choice" and "desire", both of which indicate and are extensions of "will". You can't choose anything without a "will", nor can you "desire." Anyhting.
I have to agree, it is a very close knit thinking.
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...
but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....
seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....
for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again
two differing spirits one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
Micah :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction". As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."
However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.
How do you teach achild who has NO will anything?
Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man? :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2012, 04:59:40 PM
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...
but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....
seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....
for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again
two differing spirits one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor
:dsunny: Yes.
so then man quickened in Christ and blessed with the Holy spirit....seeks to please God[do God's will]
but being bound in sin/finds another 'contrary' will at work in his flesh[the spirit is willing but the flesh
is weak] thus the wrestling....and Paul's word...who will deliver me from this body undergoing this death
Quote from: sheila on November 01, 2012, 04:59:40 PM
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...
but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....
seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....
for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again
two differing spirits one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor
Certainly there are many verses that can seem contradictory to one another. I have no desire to split hairs and I also have no desire to "lock down absolutes" in areas where God has left some "wiggle room". I am not saying you are either Sheila :o). Just sharing in the spirit of midrash and open discussion.
But these "seemingly" contradictory verses and paradoxical paradigms they seem to support are usually the pillars on either side of a gate that leads to deeper truth.
"Sin in the flesh" is not necessarily disconnected from the will of man. It is the focus of his heart and will, that "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life"- until he is begotten, not by the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God. Even after that however, man can "choose" to "walk in the flesh"- as Paul said to the Corinthians "walking as a natural man", babes, born of the spirit yet walking in the flesh.
If I choose to walk in the flesh, building "wood, hay and stubble", I may "lose my reward".
Yet, at the same time, it is God who subjected the entire creation to futility. What are we to do? Chose one "side" of revelation over against the other?
I think this is short sighted and undercuts the integrity of the Logos.
We want the black and white. I don't like the black and white, it is always out of the "letter" and brings bondage. My point is to flesh out the body of revelation in between the extremes, because there is a lot of meat there.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2012, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
Micah :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction". As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."
However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.
How do you teach achild who has NO will anything?
Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man? :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man?
I believe that these very emotions are the reason for free will.
These emotions are not something that God had already experienced.
There are common emotions, as there are commonly ten fingers on a hand.
Yet every finger print different.
God has recorded and is recording and feeling every emotion we( collectively
all of the seed of Adam) have ever felt .This will continue until Love,
the Love that God has defined is complete.(Yet some how it is Already completed
By Jesus on the Cross).
How do you feel about this.
Dajomaco,
thank you. I thought of free will in a different way thanks to your post.
Man has a will. That will is to sin.
Man wants to be FREE to sin in any which way he likes or desires or wills.
If our lives are given over to God we want to do the will of God which is to Love.
Love is the opposite of sin. The more we conform to the will of God by loving, the less sin will be in our life.
Man wants his free will because "a man wants to do what a man wants to do" and we humans just don't like anyone telling us what's best for us, or what we should do.
Maybe God just gives us the illussion of free will cuz he knows how happy it makes us to think it was our choice and we made the right choice. :doh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 05:47:06 PM
Dajomaco,
thank you. I thought of free will in a different way thanks to your post.
Man has a will. That will is to sin.
Man wants to be FREE to sin in any which way he likes or desires or wills.
If our lives are given over to God we want to do the will of God which is to Love.
Love is the opposite of sin. The more we conform to the will of God by loving, the less sin will be in our life.
Man wants his free will because "a man wants to do what a man wants to do" and we humans just don't like anyone telling us what's best for us, or what we should do.
Maybe God just gives us the illussion of free will cuz he knows how happy it makes us to think it was our choice and we made the right choice. :doh:
I agree except for "The more we conform...." I believe maybe you meant "the more we yield and submit" to the Will of God. If i misspoke I'm sorry.
No need. While I was writing that I was thinking of the verse "Being conformed to the image of His Son" so that's what came out. You are correct.
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2012, 08:37:59 PM
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)
Man, of himself does not "want" to sin, it is his very nature to sin.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2012, 09:24:40 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 01, 2012, 08:37:59 PM
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)
Man, of himself does not "want" to sin, it is his very nature to sin.
Just semantics.
Don't believe so. :dsunny:
He wants to cuz its in his nature LOL :Peace2:
so sinning is built in?
yes we are born with a sin nature and are slaves to sin. We cannot NOT sin unless Christ intervenes. Even after he does we still find ourselves sinning now occaisonally and asking forgiveness rather than sinning regularly and not really caring.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 02, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
yes we are born with a sin nature and are slaves to sin. We cannot NOT sin unless Christ intervenes. Even after he does we still find ourselves sinning now occaisonally and asking forgiveness rather than sinning regularly and not really caring.
:nod:
so God allows us to sin....so we don't have a choice?
Certainly God allows us to sin. If God removed someone from the face of the earth whenever that person committed a sin, the world would have no humans on it within 48 hours and not from a rapture. We don't have a choice before Christ. The bible says we are a slave to sin before knowing Christ.
Well, That's what the whole thread is about up until now and there is not agreement on the subject :o)
I believe sin IS built in, but we do have a choice, and therein is the struggle.
Only grace, however, can change human nature, "If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation, old things pass away, behold, all things become new."
I believe there is a "duality" or a "paradoxical paradigm" within which God operates in foreknowledge, calling, election etc.- all the while still leaving man a certain degree of sovereignty, within which man is learning about the nature of God and becoming transformed into it.
It is probably the minority opinion :o)
Since God causes "all things to work according to the counsel of His will" and " the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." He is absolutely sovereign .
Yet He, within His sovereign will can do whatever He wants, including giving man a measure of choice- a stewardship over which man may be penalized or rewarded according to his exercise of that stewardship, in order to gain friends(Abraham the Father of faith was called, 'the friend of God') who understand Him and can fellowship with Him intimately.
Is sin built in? Yes, "For, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Rom 5:12)
Do we have a choice? Yes, "Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".... "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you"
Can we do it on our own? Absolutely not, "For it is by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".
Is there anything we can do to help ourselves and please Him? Absolutely. "Today, If you hear His voice, harden not your heart as they did in the wilderness and saw my works 40 years, as I said in my displeasure, 'They shall not enter my rest'"
Why? Because those who are in the flesh cannot please God, because they cannot receive the things of God and consider them foolishness.
How? Pray that you enter not into temptation....
Pray that you be "strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man"
Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you can prove what is the good, the complete, the pleasing will of God.
That's just my :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
12 cents? :laughing7:
HaH........back to school for basic math for me I guess :dunno2:
Or maybe basic English....
These are my :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
or
These are my two centses
Eagle,
I think I am reading that you are suggesting that God's sovereign will allows man to also have a "will" to exercise "choices" ? That man has a limited range of choices subject to God's limitations inside his sovereign will (choices)?
I think this is what could be labeled the short leash principle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Jesus was ready to walk in his own freewill, we aren't ,I believe we are being lead in all the things we do or don't do until the appointed time.
I don't think we can handle the whole truth yet,if we did I believe we would be set outside the garden like Adam
Like someone said, it seems like semantics as we persist in the desert
Waiting for that day of revelation
My two cents
Quote from: Paul L on November 02, 2012, 03:54:54 AM
Eagle,
I think I am reading that you are suggesting that God's sovereign will allows man to also have a "will" to exercise "choices" ? That man has a limited range of choices subject to God's limitations inside his sovereign will (choices)?
I think this is what could be labeled the short leash principle.
Am I reading you correctly?
I am not sure what I believe fits within the short leash principle-since I am not familiar with the specifics of it, but maybe so. I believe the leash is there for sure. Once we are born of God, the leash gets longer as we mature, until there is no leash in the resurrection, only "the glorious liberty of the sons of God". Regardless of the choices made with the circle of limitations imposed by the leash, the overall plan of God marches inexorably on, until finally, God is ALL IN ALL- and all will be totally free(rule, power and authority abolished because the whole creation is set free from futility into the aforementioned glorious freedom of the sons of God). Thats a real short sorta kinda how I see it :o)
Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: -
Leash????
maybe the old man in us,taken captive to the will of the adversary,born in sin..does not have a free will
but the new man in Christ..in the image of God has a will,like God?
part of the subjection to vanity could be the binding of all men up in sin...in order to set the whole creation free
[free will to serve God unhindered] into the glorious freedom of the Sons of God
maybe the binding of us all up in sin[exercize in evil] is for the strengthening of the good/will...
always it says..the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak[bound in sin]
Yeah Sheila, and always I am waiting and longing for the glorious freedom of the sons of God. Never looked at free will like that before, very interesting concept for sure!
thinking of Jerusalem Above...the Free woman..of which we are born from above...by the will
of God. Sarah represented her in the earth. though a free woman..she called him Lord in her heart
..as the one who receives the promised seed. Sarah 'laughed' at this Proverbs 21;35 She is clothed
with strength and dignity,she can LAUGH at the days to come.[a wife of noble character]
her husband is respected at the city gate, when he takes his seat among the elders of the land
Quote from: sheila on November 02, 2012, 03:29:49 PM
maybe the old man in us,taken captive to the will of the adversary,born in sin..does not have a free will
but the new man in Christ..in the image of God has a will,like God?
part of the subjection to vanity could be the binding of all men up in sin...in order to set the whole creation free
[free will to serve God unhindered] into the glorious freedom of the Sons of God
maybe the binding of us all up in sin[exercize in evil] is for the strengthening of the good/will...
always it says..the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak[bound in sin]
:dsunny: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
thinking on the scriptures that a son can't be discerned from a servant..in his youth,even though
he be heir of all things..but is under tutors[servant does will of someone else/not his own]
a servant will rule over a foolish son..etc.
son remains in household forever servant doesn't..
yet Jesus a son and heir become as a servant in obediance....
does a son honour/respect his father's will? HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Mark 7 you have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your
traditions! For Moses said 'Honour your father and mother,and anyone who curses his father and mother
must be put to death. But,you say, that if a man says to his father or mother; whatever help you might
otherwisehave recieved from me is Corban[that is a gift devoted to God] then you no longer
let him do anything for his father or mother.Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that
you have handed down. And you do many things like that
[Numbers 30;1-2 was used to justify corban vow...again letter of law versus spirit when a man
makes a vow he must do everything he said
thinking on what Jesus said about the strong man Matt 12;29 or again,how can anyone
enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless her first ties him up[binds him]
then he can rob his house.
tares removed and bound up in bundles by the angels,so wheat may be gathered in the barn...
you know a weed is very vigorous. it never ceases to amze me with it's tenacity.
look what happens when satan is bound!! reign of Christ!..look what happens when he is loosed...
he completely surrounds the camp of the Holy city
Habakak 1;4 the wicked surround[bind in sin/flesh] the righteous[spirits of just men made perfect] so that justice is
perverted..............
what is left but the fire come down from heaven to consume the tares that bind us?
Acts 2;3 they saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that seperated and came to rest on each of them.
this the token of the Holy spirit..the down payment of what is to come[fullness]
Has God ever been forgiven?
To really Love some times in a relationship, we need to forgive one an other.
To receive forgiveness, is a beautiful aspect of Love.
To forgive is even more divine.
We are told to forgive one another one as we are forgiven.
This is Love.
God has never experienced what is like to be forgiven.
He experiences forgiveness through us.
That experience is through a glass darkly.
Soon and very soon we will see him in all of his Glory.
He will also see us in all our Glory he will see first hand not second hand.
The Glorious nature of his Forgiveness through his Sons sacrifice on the Cross.
We will be presented .
When we are presented every thought we have of Gods forgiveness,
will be eternally posted for all of the sons of God to see.
This will be our credentials presented to the Sons of God as they are brought in to
the throne room of judgment for us to pass judgment on them.
The old man is dead. He is dead man walking. He is a slave to death. He can only choose death. He is already judged and condemned.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me," declares the LORD. Jer 9:6
I 'hear" this Molly...after reading your post. When God told the king that took Sarah into his house....
YOU ARE AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN FOR YOU HAVE ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE
God made man for His spirit to dwell in..not another spirit man
YOU ARE AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN FOR YOU HAVE ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE
...and yet the king was totally innocent of any wrong doing due to Abrahams half truth. Interesting.
nevrtheless,he paid 1000 silver pieces[all the fruit of the vinyard]
SOS...the 1000 peices of silver are for you..and 200 for the keepers of the vineyard
my sister my spouse
Quote from: sheila on November 02, 2012, 05:12:44 PM
what is left but the fire come down from heaven to consume the tares that bind us?
Acts 2;3 they saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that seperated and came to rest on each of them.
this the token of the Holy spirit..the down payment of what is to come[fullness]
Einsteins associate Max Planck discovered that when light shines on metal it releases particles, I think they were atoms,or photons, can't remember. It was a measurable phenomena, but Planck(and everyone else) was puzzled as to why the phenmena stopped occuring at a certain point as the light was decreased.
In other words, as the light decreased the photons should have just continued to be released in lesser quantity, but they didnt, they stopped at a certain point. Einstein hypothesized and proved that light is also made up of particles(this was rejected when he proposed it by Planck and others, until he PROVED IT TRUE). He then postulated that there was a particular point at which the energy needed to be sufficient in strength to be GREATER THAN the force holding the atoms together.
We are like that ourselves. There needs to be a CERTAIN LEVEL OF LIGHT before the PARTICLES OF WHICH WE ARE MADE, will RELEASE FROM THE CARNAL LUMP. That level is perfectly described by Paul in Romans chapter 12,
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(Rom 12:1-5)
This point of light necessary to the RELEASE OF THE SPIRIT is also described in Ephesians Chapter 4 and I Corinthians 12- 14, as well as by Peter in 1 Peter 4:10,11.
As
each one has received a special gift,
employ it in serving one another as
good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies;
so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1Pe 4:10-11)
It is described by Luke in Acts 2 and in Acts 4
It is described by Jesus in John 17 and in John 13
They were all in one place in one accord ministering unto the Lord
If I wash not your feet you have no part in me....as I have done to you do so to one another
They were all as one soul.....Great grace was upon them all and the WORD OF THE LORD grew and multiplied
Yield your bodies as a living sacrifice.....let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought, for TO EACH ONE IS GIVEN THE MEASURE OF FAITH
What is it when you come together, one has a pslam, one has a teaching, one has a revelation
All may prophesy that all may learn and be edified
Let the prophets speak and let the others judge
I pray that you may be one even as I and My Father are one that your joy may be full
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:15-16)
We are the metal, made so by His grace, but like negative ions on the ground rise up to meet positive ions in the heavens- until they TOUCH AND LIGHTNING FLASHES AND THUNDER ROLLS- there is no MANIFESTATION unless HEAVEN AND EARTH MEET.
The life giving spirit, the quickening spirit, the tongues of fire descending to rest upon the heads of "acceptable sacrifices"
They are the broken and contrite hearts, and they can be recognized by their love for one another.
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls unto a sincere love of the brethren,
fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born from above not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
(1Pe 1:22-23)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
(Rom 5:1-5)
That
there should be no schism in the body; but that
the members should have the same care one for another. And
whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts:
and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (1Co 12:25-31)
Arise O Lord to Thy dwelling place, Thou and the ark of Thy strength.
Glory to God!
Wow! That was great and deep Eaglesway. Thank you...it was photons.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2012, 05:49:02 AM
QuoteEinsteins associate Max Planck discovered that when light shines on metal it releases particles, I think they were atoms,or photons, can't remember.
Electrons are released from the outermost orbital shell of the atom when specific wavelengths of light are shined upon specific metals. The yellow wavelength seems to be the most efficient. Of course the greater the intensity of the light beam shining upon the surface of the metal, the greater will be the flow of electrons.
QuoteEinstein hypothesized and proved that light is also made up of particles(this was rejected when he proposed it by Planck and others, until he PROVED IT TRUE).
Correct, the particles of light are called photons.
He then postulated that there was a particular point at which the energy needed to be sufficient in strength to be GREATER THAN the force holding the atoms together.
QuoteWe are like that ourselves. There needs to be a CERTAIN LEVEL OF LIGHT before the PARTICLES OF WHICH WE ARE MADE, will RELEASE FROM THE CARNAL LUMP. That level is perfectly described by Paul in Romans chapter 12,
Insightful to say the least......the more intense the light & more pure the wavelength, the greater efficiency by which electrons are released.
QuoteWe are the metal, made so by His grace, but like negative ions on the ground rise up to meet positive ions in the heavens- until they TOUCH AND LIGHTNING FLASHES AND THUNDER ROLLS- there is no MANIFESTATION unless HEAVEN AND EARTH MEET.
Positive ions are atoms whose outermost shell of electrons have been stripped of one or more electrons, this results in an atom whose charge is out of balance and which seeks to bring its' charge back to neutral by acquiring an electron.
A negative ion is an atom which has an excess of electrons in its outermost orbital shell resulting in a negatively charged atom . These atoms will readily give up those excess electrons to the closest positively charged atom it detects, resulting in the movement of electrons, or what is called electricity.
You're on a roll my brother, keep rolling & you will gather no moss......
I have a pan of water and a chair by the front door .
Hoping to see you soon
the rainbow covenant in the Heavens..God's token of never again......water droplets/dew ofHeaven
white encompasses all colours of rainbow[coat of many colours] black=without light/judgement
1 John - "God is light and in Him is NO darkness at all. None."
"Light is a wave."
"Light is a particle."
"It's both. Light is a wavicle."
Job 37:19 "Tell us what we should say to him; we cannot draw up our case because of our darkness.
But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Likewise the Spirit also helps our weakness: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Rom 8:25-26
Black has a place..two onx stones engraved with 12 tribes of Isreals names were bore on the shoulders
of the hIGH pREIST. tHE BLACK STONE ALSO SIGNIFYS A 'NAY' REPLY OF gOD..JUST AS A WHITE
IS YES[URIM AND THUMMIN] THE BLACK HORSE WITH THE SCALES..SAYING..BARLEY..WHEAT
HURT NOT THE OIL OR WINE IS PART OF THE MESSAGE OF THE FOUR HORSEMEN
PAY ATTENTION TO HIS JUDGEMENTS..WHEAT AND BARLEY[SPIRITUAL FOOD TO SUSTAIN
A MAN AND HIS FAMILY] WHILE A FAMINE FOR THE WORD OF GOD IS IN THE LAND hURT NOT
THE OIL AND WINE..HOLY SPIRIT OIL AND WINE OF CHRISTdevINE...[I HAVE DESIRED TO DRINK
THIS CUP WITH YOU. THE BLACK HORSE,BLACK STONE..NAY GOES TOWARDS SATAN AND HIS
EVIL KINGDOM OF DEMONS/THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED OF THE LIGHT OF HIS FACE/AND
RECEIVE NO WORD OF LIFE THAT THEY SHALL LIVE[MAN LIVES BY EVERY WORD FROM THE
MOUTH OFGOD BUT NOT SATAN AND EVIL SPIRIT CONTRASTS TOOLS.
FATHER SAYS 'IT IS I MYSELF THAT HAVE CREATED THE 'BLACK SMITH/TOOL OF DARKNESS]
BUT LOOK HE [ZECHARIAH 1;18-20] DOES THE AXE WEILD HIMSELF ABOVE HIM THAT SWINGS IT
OR THE SAW BOAST AGAINST HIM WHO USES IT,OR AS IF A ROD WERE TO WIELD HIM THAT USES IT
OR A CLUB BRANDISH HIM WHO IS NOT WOOD
ZECHARIAH 1;8 DURING THE NIGHT I HAD A VISION-AND THERE BEFORE ME WAS A MAN RIDING
A RED HORSE.HE WAS STANDING AMONG THE MYRTLE TREES IN A RAVINE,BHIND HIM
WERE RED BROWN AND WHITE HORSES....WHO ARE THESE? THEY ARE THE ONES THE LORD HAS SENT TO
GO THROUGH OUT THE EARTH..AND THEY REPORTED TOTHE LORD OF THE EARTH.
PROCLAIM,THIS IS WHAT THE LORD ALMIGHTY SAYS...'I AM VERY JEALOUS FOR JERUSALEM
AND ZION.
FOUR HORNS AND FOUR CRAFTSMAN...THE FOUR HORNS SCATTERED JUDAH ISREAL AND
JERUSALEM[4 CORNERS OF EARTH] THEN THE LORD SHOWED ME FOUR CRAFTSMEN
WHAT ARE THESE COMING TODO? THE CRAFTSMEN HAVE COME TO TERRIFY THEM AND
THROW DOWN THESE HORNS OF THE NATIONS AGAINST THE LAND OF JUDAH
[FOUR HORNS/BABYLON/MEDO-PERSIA/GREECE/ROME] KING OF BABYLON IMAGE
ZECHARIAH 6 FOUR CHARIOTS..COMING OUTFROM BETWEEN TWO MOUNTAINS OF BRONZE
RED HORSES,BLACK,WHITE AND DAPPLED..WHAT ARE THESE?.......
THESE ARE THE FOUR SPIRITS OF HEAVEN GOING OUT FROM STANDING BEFORE THE LORD....
LOOK THOSE GOING TOWARD THE NORTH COUNTRY GIVE MY SPIRIT REST IN THE LAND OF THE
NORTH COUNTRY[BABYLON]
BLACK HAS A VERY IMPORTANT PLACE
P.S. THE BLACK HORSES WENT TO THE NORTH/BABYLONIA..AND GIVE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD
REST.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2012, 08:48:36 PM
"Light is a wave."
"Light is a particle."
"It's both. Light is a wavicle."
Good job Mol, I'll bet you're good with poetry as well. I'll pass this on to a few friends in my circle in the science community & get their reaction......
wavicle, OK, Albert Einstein, Max Planck, & Neils Bohr, move over ,Molly's on a roll too.
shows you what mental level i'm on. reminds me of popsicle.
Quote from: Paul L on November 03, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2012, 08:48:36 PM
"Light is a wave."
"Light is a particle."
"It's both. Light is a wavicle."
Good job Mol, I'll bet you're good with poetry as well. I'll pass this on to a few friends in my circle in the science community & get their reaction......wavicle, OK, Albert Einstein, Max Planck, & Neils Bohr, move over ,Molly's on a roll too.
That's sweet, Paul, but it's not mine. It's what I was taught. :girlheart:
I like popsicles, too.
Wavicle
n. A wave-particle; specifically, quantum entities viewed as neither waves nor particles but a mixture of both
probably off discussion, but this interesting.
Light is affected by our observation. If you look at light and try to see the particle it looks like a wave. If you try to look at it as a wave, it looks like a particle. Weird huh? Maybe that's why God is different when we look at Him in a certain way expecting an outcome.
Wavicle - NOT the silly "God particle" scientist are swooning over lately.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 03, 2012, 11:50:46 PM
probably off discussion, but this interesting.
Light is affected by our observation. If you look at light and try to see the particle it looks like a wave. If you try to look at it as a wave, it looks like a particle. Weird huh? Maybe that's why God is different when we look at Him in a certain way expecting an outcome.
Wavicle - NOT the silly "God particle" scientist are swooning over lately.
It is the so-called "God particle", it is indivisible although theorists in Quantum Mechanics are attempting to divide it with "entanglement" experiments using lasers.
Mass is simply bound up energy, or to say it another way, mass is energy trapped in a room with no doors, no way out. But if something should poke a hole in a wall in that doorless room, a tiny bit of that trapped energy will transform into photons & rush to that hole, some will make it through before the hole repairs itself, and this is what we see as light photons,
wavicles.
If all the atoms in your body could be transformed into pure energy (photons), your body could light up the world for a few days. In nuclear physics we already know how to do this, but building the equipment for doing it is prohibitively expensive, to build a cost effective alchemy facility to create such energy will never be within man's reach.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 03, 2012, 11:50:46 PM
probably off discussion, but this interesting.
Light is affected by our observation. If you look at light and try to see the particle it looks like a wave. If you try to look at it as a wave, it looks like a particle. Weird huh? Maybe that's why God is different when we look at Him in a certain way expecting an outcome.
Wavicle - NOT the silly "God particle" scientist are swooning over lately.
IMO not off topic at all,actually right on point. Man's will is the particle, God's will is the wave. Look for the wave, see the particle- look for the particle, see the wave.
"For who has known the mind of the Lord, and who has been his counselor...... " :o)
Observe watch scrutinize.
Opened eyes.
realize.
Behold the glass darkly.
Look particularly
molecularly.
God has made emphatically
All of physicality
Radically .
I was blind but know I see.
Rad! :dsunny:
n. A wave-particle; specifically, quantum entities viewed as neither waves nor particles but a mixture of both
This is where I was kinda hoping this discussion would go in spirit.
Theoretically, there may be a wavicle :o) The mechanics of such a thing are beyond our ability to visualize at present, either physically or mathematically, yet something about the behavior of the smallest particles we have been able to conceive of or identify lead us continually into things deeper than we can see- when will it end? HAH- hopefully never, because EVERY TIME WE ARRIVE we get a surprise that DOESNT FIT THE EXPECTATION. Light was a particle until it became a wave, and that didnt work so now we have a wavicle.
He divided the waters from the waters. All things were created by Him and all things, "hold together by the Word of His power"(Heb1). The advent of wav theory and theories of wave/particle duality is an exciting step towards understanding the "waters" through physics, and tho I don't believe science will ever get there completely- I get a kick out of the progressive consternation as one generation of arrogance succumbs to the inquisitiveness of the next generation. Inquisitiveness leads to honest inquiry, and co-operation between the diggers.
Arrogance leads to trench digging and fortress building around concepts that only partially explain the truth but are worshipped like graven images.
As we try to go smaller and smaller in understanding the MEETING POINT between predestination and choice, election and stewardship, sovereignity of God and whatever degree of sovereignity God has given man- There is an EVENT HORIZON that is incalculable by us in this plane of existence. It can not be fully known until we know as we know as we are known and the last veil is torn. Therefore, it ought never be the SOURCE OF DIVISION since the CLEARER AND DEEPER REVELATION IS THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE ONESS OF THE SAINTS IN THAT LOVE- WAVE PARTICLE DUALITY MAN!!!!!! HAHA
We Christians hammer upon each other about terms like the "sovereignity of God" and "free will" or "man's will"- but most don't do the work. They don't buy the field. They don't dig for the treasure. The treasure is the "duality". The truth hidden behind seemingly opposing paradigms :o).
Paradoxicle wavicles of the word HAHAHA.
Beyond the hard headed insistence of the "prevailing system of interpretation" there is a supposedly integral underlying revelation, available through the Logos that, being revealed in the Spirit, brings unity of the faith as the Body of Christ grows up in all things into the Head, speaking the truth in love as we become the "mature man", "rooted and grounded in love" so that we can be "filled up to all the fulness of God".
Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
Romans 11:33-36 33
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Disclaimer: The above statements are merely MY OWN OPINION and are by no means being presented as systematic theology that anyone else ought to accept for any other reason than that they come to similar conclusions out of their own study of the word; observations of nature; reason; and fellowship with the Spirit. :declare:
I see it as a very complicated Chess match, where God always gets His way. :2c:
Though I think sometimes He happily lets me "win" when I pray, not that He didn't know I was going to pray in the first place anyway. :Pray:
And every piece winds up back on the board when the game is over :o)
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 27, 2012, 06:43:51 AM
There is going to be an experiment. Tentmaker Forums is going to allow a discussion of subject matter regarding the sovereign will of God and man's will in relationship to God. This is a subject of great interest, substantial complexity and sometimes unfortunately, heated passions.
The terminology surrounding this discussion is made difficult as our understandings of certain words and the way they fit into our diverse theology often differ.
The idea that such a subject should be discouraged is unfortunate, but because the controversy and the kind of strife it can generate is so serious and often grievous- it has for a time been strongly discouraged and quickly redirected.
The moderation of the experiment will be focused at maintaining an attitude of polite discussion between brothers and sisters sharing their perspectives respectfully. Scripture ought to salt these discussion as participants "speak the truth in love", as they see it.
I personally believe God is absolutely sovereign. He can and does whatever He wants to whenever He wants to- He is like the wind and He is like the rock. He has set in motion a purpose, "His kind intention"(rock)(Eph 1:10,11). He has left within a certain amount of "inscrutable mystery"(wind) so that we may never say that we have been His counselor(Romans 11:33-36).
I also believe that within God's plan as he teaches us to be like Him- like the wind and the rock- He leaves us also a certain stewardship- a limited sovereignity freely exercised as we learn to be conformed to His image. Eventually, in my view, the will of man(all) merges with the will of God in a mutually given love that is like a cataract falling over a mountainside or a wind blowing through the leaves of a willow tree. IMO This happens sooner for some, later for others. The balance between the foreknowledge of God, the predestination of individuals, calling and election versus concepts like repentance, obedience, sanctification are like two sides of one coin to me.
I do not believe my view is "correct". It is only the small window of one persons experience in seeking the Lord and studying His word. Actually, I do not believe a "correct view" exists on this side of the veil- and that is why we strive so intensely against one another. We are not comfortable with fuzzy edges- we like clarity. We love to "know".
I suggest we speak as those who see through a glass darkly, even if we think we absolutely possess the whole counsel of God.
Hopefully, some will ask questions and others will bring forth their views without unleashing a firestorm :o). I have friends who do not see things as I do. Let's be like friend's discussing subjects of interest. Let's not judge anyones spirituality by whether they agree with us or make our view the standard of measure. As long as we can discuss these things in an atmosphere of fellowship, and praise God for His grace, we can continue to do so and edify one another. Participants who cannot abide by this rule will get a warning. After the first warning they may be disallowed from participating for a time if they don't get it. Hopefully the experiment will be a great success.
Enjoy.
I respect you for insisting that the discussion be in the spirit of love. God bless you, brother. I am including a link I just used in a reply to another post about free will. My position is that I no longer believe in free will. I think only God truly has free will. I think the rest of us are compelled to act by unseen spiritual forces, and it is a matter of cause and effect.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil013.html
I believe God desires fellowship between beings who have all chosen to enjoy the superior life of love, and is winning us and training us to become these beings, "sons". This, imo, is the glorious liberty of the sons of God. I believ He knows the end from the beginning and we are predestined according to the forknowledge of God. However, I also believe no one fully understands this and we should all exercise a broad range of grace when discussing such issues. I am glad u r on Tentmaker Tom and look forward to getting to know you. Peace.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 24, 2013, 05:57:02 PM
I believe God desires fellowship between beings who have all chosen to enjoy the superior life of love, and is winning us and training us to become these beings, "sons". This, imo, is the glorious liberty of the sons of God. I believ He knows the end from the beginning and we are predestined according to the forknowledge of God. However, I also believe no one fully understands this and we should all exercise a broad range of grace when discussing such issues. I am glad u r on Tentmaker Tom and look forward to getting to know you. Peace.
Thanks, bro. I agree we are all in a maturing process and don't have all the answers. I hope I never offend anybody, and, if I do, I'd like to know so I can make things right.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 24, 2013, 05:57:02 PM
I believe God desires fellowship between beings who have all chosen to enjoy the superior life of love, and is winning us and training us to become these beings, "sons". This, imo, is the glorious liberty of the sons of God. I believ He knows the end from the beginning and we are predestined according to the forknowledge of God. However, I also believe no one fully understands this and we should all exercise a broad range of grace when discussing such issues. I am glad u r on Tentmaker Tom and look forward to getting to know you. Peace.
Amen. As we all see through the glass darkly, this should instill a humility when we speak. I doubt any see these things fully and we should discuss with this in mind.
Amen Shawn, I am convinced-which doesnt make me right of course :o)....but nevertheless I am convinced.....
Once the beauty of our union with Him exceeds our attachment to our intellectual merit badges; once our union in Him rises to its properly exalted priority in the hierarchies of our doctrinal understandings- His grace will lift us up together into that place where we speak the hidden wisdom among the mature. That hidden wisdom will not be(IMO) esoteric understandings of time and predestination and eschatology. It will be the secret of walking in the promised rest, dwelling as one soul, no one having a need of which all are not aware; the secret of manifesting the love of God in Christ in a way so clear that the lost can see from afar and "Come", take refuge in the "city set upon a hill, the house of prayer for all people".
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink freely of the water of life".
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2013, 11:36:46 PM
Amen Shawn, I am convinced-which doesnt make me right of course :o)....but nevertheless I am convinced.....
Once the beauty of our union with Him exceeds our attachment to our intellectual merit badges; once our union in Him rises to its properly exalted priority in the hierarchies of our doctrinal understandings- His grace will lift us up together into that place where we speak the hidden wisdom among the mature. That hidden wisdom will not be(IMO) esoteric understandings of time and predestination and eschatology. It will be the secret of walking in the promised rest, dwelling as one soul, no one having a need of which all are not aware; the secret of manifesting the love of God in Christ in a way so clear that the lost can see from afar and "Come", take refuge in the "city set upon a hill, the house of prayer for all people".
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink freely of the water of life".
:thumbsup:
HI. Scripture says we need to be set free. So, do you think we have free will, or are we captive under the only things we know about. Scripture also says we are in bondage to vanity all the while that we are being made. Romans 8.
A baby may think it has free will, but it can not freely do anything much at all. As for us. want to fly, try it. Want to sleep and can't some time, well just will it.
God bless, ken
Philippians 4
2 I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord.
12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Luke 22
42 ...saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." 43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.
Quote from: donken on April 28, 2014, 03:42:42 AM
HI. Scripture says we need to be set free. So, do you think we have free will, or are we captive under the only things we know about. Scripture also says we are in bondage to vanity all the while that we are being made. Romans 8.
A baby may think it has free will, but it can not freely do anything much at all. As for us. want to fly, try it. Want to sleep and can't some time, well just will it.
God bless, ken
freedom is contingent on not sinning
and sinning is being self centered
seeking for self first
rather than as jesus
how to properly consider the needs of others before one's own
but it can be sometimes as in luke 17:3
what the other needs is rebuke
but to always forgive when they properly repent
freedom is contingent on Jesus Christ's sacrifice and the will of God to accept it....and to reconcile all to Himself. freedom is
contingent upon God making a vessel unto honour for Himself[man in His image] Freedom is a court verdict of God not to count
man's tresspasses against him and to deliver him from his sinful state.
LOOK! Matt 13;41 the son of man will send out his angels and they will weed out of His kingdom
EVERYTHING THAT CAUSES SIN AND THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY...............
God can make something out of nothing.
He can also convince me that I chose Jesus.
Even the though God chose me from the foundations of the world.
Glory He chose me.
When every human baby is born and lives, the adult they will become is "DEAD" in them. That adult or maturity has to be resurrected IN them as who they are, or that maturity will hot be seen in them because of the immaturity still reigning, physically grown as an adult or not.
The maturity has to be "resurrected" in the baby over time because the maturity that was able to cause the baby to exist at all existed BEFORE the baby did and still exists as the parent. God is our spiritual parent.
God bless, ken
Maybe this will change the paradigm: what if man's will transcends his conscious decisions like his heartbeat transcends his will to live? What if the will exist beyond us and is interwoven with all of the influences that subject the will at any given time, the primary influence in humanity being mortality, soulish desires and needs such as hunger, lust, desires for comfort and companionship? Can any human will themselves beyond these begging needs?
..it is God that causes us to will and do His good pleasure.......who is able to resist His expressed will?
That's what I'm saying Sheila!
:laugh: good! I wasn't for sure if that was what you were saying......... :girlheart:
We understand instincts as it pertains to animals.
They migrate, mate, feed .......
Do we have some sort of instincts that override our free will.
That was my inquiry dajomaco
Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,
Quote from: Jordanwhite on February 21, 2015, 06:14:07 AM
That was my inquiry dajomaco
I think the notion of self-preservation is something we are all born with.(the flesh)
The fear of death.
The holy spirit shows us a better way.
That our faith can preserve us in this world and the next.
When we walk in faith we try to overcome the notion of self-preservation (the flesh).
This battle seems to be with me every day.
The battle is to find rest in him.
I think instinctual responses are the greatest challenge. Many things that move on the surface are tied to instinctual impulses below the surface.
Leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent lives in the deep, and must be slain by the sword of His mouth.
In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
"I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day. (Is 27)
I believe we are all but clay, in our wise Potters hands. He chooses what He will make of us. He can make one for honor and one for destruction and He can destroy and restore and rework whenever, however He chooses. But the end result of all His works are for good. I believe noone is better or worse than anyone else. He molds us for His purposes. I think this makes it easier to follow Jesus, when He tells us to love others as ourselves and even love our enemies. :girlheart:
Quote from: Caffus on May 07, 2015, 06:52:22 AM
I believe we are all but clay, in our wise Potters hands. He chooses what He will make of us. He can make one for honor and one for destruction and He can destroy and restore and rework whenever, however He chooses. But the end result of all His works are for good. I believe noone is better or worse than anyone else. He molds us for His purposes. I think this makes it easier to follow Jesus, when He tells us to love others as ourselves and even love our enemies. :girlheart:
Amen
AMEN again !! Well said , Caffus :HeartThrob:
"For bodily exercise profits little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come"
"For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit - life and peace"
I know many do not agree with the following trend of thought regarding the mind and the will, but it is one which I personally find all-encompassing and easy to understand, and I apologise about its length but when one attempts to minimise explanation too much, things can be misunderstood.
Man today and in the past - except for the very few - has always placed so much dependence on what he can feel and see with his physical body. And bound as he is, it is difficult indeed to so extricate himself from its toils, that he can dispassionately view the world and the seemingly concrete things all around and say: 'This is but a semblance of the real!'
The mind of the body and the mind of the spirit function differently during one's daily life. The mind of the spirit is that which is intensely conscious of its God; and what man has deemed the active, workable side, is as a sleep from which one day the owner will be awakened. That is the contrast.
The Real Self is out on a journey, and as the different experiences are undertaken, so the equipment is provided by the Heavenly Father, and that which has served its day is, by and by, laid aside, forgotten - except for the results it has produced.
It is wise not to confuse that physical body or that physical mind with the Real Self within. Could the eyes but see, there - in all its splendour - would the spirit within each one be revealed to doubting man; could he but extricate himself from that limited sphere of thought, he would indeed be conscious that within there were resources - untouched, undiscovered and unused in the Master's service.
In ones simple life, one longs to do something beautiful for God or for loved ones: to create beauty in sound, in colour, or in the hearts of others. This is the spirit struggling to get free from that which has buried it - the physical mind.
It will be found that the motive power behind all creation is Love and Love alone. When free from the limitations of the mind of the body, one will mourn with intensity those things brought into being which emanated from the mind of the body alone.
For the sake of the spirit within, it is wise not to kill the desires for this and for that, but to spiritualise them, to bring them up to some standard of holiness, so that when the body is laid aside there - free, untrammelled - they will be able to work out, in detail, that which the spirit longs.
There are few desires or thoughts which pass through the mind of the body, which have not their spiritual counterpart. It is, as it were, that something sweet and sacred had been dropped in the mud, and there it has lain over the time which has sped until the owner, at last, recollected its loss, and sought not only to recover it but to bring it back to something of the beauty which it once possessed.
The desires of the physical mind can be viewed in this wise: The craving for ease, that desire for possessions, is but the mutilated instinct, on the one hand, for the peace which passeth understanding, and on the other for those priceless gifts of the Spirit which will allow one to work for God.
This may appear to be stretching illustration to breaking point; but one must recollect that one is a child of God.
With all attributes, all instincts, all desires, one can trace back the myriad of experiences gone through, what has been accumulated, what has been thrown on that which is pure and holy, that which lighteth every man that comes into the world.
Regarding to the mind of the body and the mind of the spirit, it is possible that even in one's daily life, so one can hand over all into the keeping of the mind of the spirit in a way which will seem to astounding when spiritual sight is one's own.
Here is the area of the 'will' - that will which is associated with that which binds, and that freed will which, linked to God, can make the unity between Father and child complete, even during the physical stages, even while cabined within that which seems to some as a prison house indeed.
The greatest test of a strong will is the ability to hand over that will into the keeping of someone wiser, older in experience. So difficult from the earth view, so alien to the physical mind. Those in the world boast far too often of the strength of their physical will; when they are released from the physical body they will see with shame and anguish that it was the weak link in their armour through which the enemy was able to wound and maim.
That will of the body can do far more damage than one can understand, yet even here it is wise to destroy it not, seeking rather to blend it with the will of God, when it shall work for the God in Christ within - for the Real Self within - in a way that a good servant should, and in a way which will bring one into happiness when the body is no more.
Those children of humanity who, as yet, have not developed strong feelings, strong opinions, strong desires, strong wills - these, as it were, are in the babyhood of spiritual growth. Yet one should not allow the will to be used as a tool by the destroyers who wish to mar the plan.
Those who are capable of holding on in spite of opposition, those who have the capacity to stand firm while the rest forsake - that indeed is a tool which one shall never be asked to lay aside; and as the days go on and the warfare between right and wrong continues, so that will, so that resolution, must be developed to withstand the oncoming forces.
Care should be taken that the will of the spirit is not chained or fettered by the will of the body. That self-will - the will which is centred on selfish desire - that in time to come must be mellowed and refined into the will of the spirit, into that will which allows one to say without reservation: 'Use me; not my will but Thine be done!'
These things need to be thought out for oneself, one must face facts as they are, one brings things into being by realising thoughts, then acting - creating by thought - which is within all, and which at some time will find full expression as the thoughts of the God in Christ within are realised, because it is not the Father's will to withhold anything from His children.
The Creator, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, thought out the scheme of mankind - all those myriad conditions necessary for His children. Out of the Mind of Love so Love took expression, and as that expression became life, so a gift was entrusted in that life to His children.
The gift - so precious - has not been used aright, and man has lost and not gained, he has stifled and not developed; but the time is coming when the Spirit of God will descend upon man and the scales will be struck from his eyes.
The spiritual mind and the spiritual will can work for God in a way impossible to estimate in words. The physical mind and the physical will, under the influence of the destroyers, can not only impede one's progress but indeed can throw one back once again into those stages from which one has extricated oneself by the desire to learn.
This is a solemn thought and linked to it is that of personal responsibility. By resisting evil, by conquering temptation, by standing firm in face of adversity, so one in turn is building resistance which can be used for those as yet far down that hill of attainment, bound by the chains of self, unconscious of their bondage.
For The Spiritual Peace That Passeth All Understanding
Ok...so I have been challenged by an ET believer an I have been bothered most of the day about this. If God is completely in control how can we be held accountable for our sins? We are to some extent responsible or we would not be to blame and if we are not to blame...we wouldn't need forgivness or mercy....how is this? Only thing I can think of is that He knew what sins we would choose to do and worked it into His final plan for good...but we choose to do the sins.
Quote from: Caffus on June 11, 2015, 01:16:11 AM
Ok...so I have been challenged by an ET believer an I have been bothered most of the day about this. If God is completely in control how can we be held accountable for our sins? We are to some extent responsible or we would not be to blame and if we are not to blame...we wouldn't need forgivness or mercy....how is this? Only thing I can think of is that He knew what sins we would choose to do and worked it into His final plan for good...but we choose to do the sins.
Caffus, it took years for me to settle into doctrinal comfort. We do have free will. We can choose to fall short of what is best for us.............sin. When we sin, we reap the reward of sin. That is why I keep coming back to where true joy is, it is a free will decision. I love the reward of fellowship with God more then the reward of sin. God is not in control of my decisions, I am, and I reap what I sow.
God is sovereign, and what God speaks will come to pass. We are in these days of adversity because God spoke it into being. How we live is our choice. God loves because God is love. God loves even when we sin, he loves us to the point of bringing us to repentance. The love of God is shed abroad in my heart for the love that He loves me with. I am enjoying your quest with those you are discussing UR with. Thanks for posting.
:peace:
Beautiful post Ed.
There are many views on this topic, Caffus. :o)
If God is control of everything- then certainly all will be saved. But even if He were not- that doesn t mean that all would not be eventually reconciled, I think the scriptures clearly teach that in anycase- all will ultimately be reconciled and God will be all in all.
I think everyone agrees that God is ultimately in control, but ETrs fall mainly into two camps.
1)Those who believe God has predestined those who will be "saved" by calling and election- the chosen.
2) Those who believe God has set up the will of man in such a way that He will not violate it- man must choose God.
There are shades and variations of these two poles and I believe the truth is somewhere in between them, but.....
Both groups claim to have the scriptures for their support., So I stay around the verses that prove the reconciliation of all, and let them figure out how that works in their paradgm- because you cannot change anybodies mind on this issue- only the Holy Spirit can.
This an excerpt from a post I made on another forum- about your particualr dilemma- altho it was a discussion about the glory of God, I think it applies....
________________
I prefer to present UR from both point of views. I believe there is sufficient scripture to satisfy both(within the limits of a reasonable seeking mind) without fully overturning either a view that allows for the exercise of will as an interaction between man and God, or a view that has God micro-managing every event and decision of all.
I simply don't believe teaching UR is dependent upon overturning either one of these paradigms.
Briefly presenting UR in either way as needed allows for the concept of UR to be sown without raising an immediate push button conflict with either, for instance.
I use John 12:32 combined with Phil 2:10,11 to begin with a person whose paradigm leans in the free will camp, showing that the message of Christ crucified is sufficient revelation of the love of God to eventually bring the whole creation to its knees, set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Jesus Himself says, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me". From His throne He says "Behold I am making all things new".
As Jason pointed out, How does God so respect free will that He forces all to bow their knee as an arbitrary object lesson to whatever part of creation survives it, just before He destroys them, or worse, torments them forever.
I use Eph 1:9-11 and Romans 11:32 to begin with more Calvinistic postures because it simply and clealry explains that God's sovereign plan is to gather all things into one in Christ, and that as every good Calvinist teaches, "He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will". What kind of being causes all things to work towards the destruction or eternal torment of most, or even much, of His creation.
At that point the roads come together through Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Romans 8:20-22 and onward.
The glory of God is sufficiently beautiful and awesome to win all, to draw all. It is sufficiently powerful to cause all things to work towards all being restored to it. It is not so glorious if most will reject it, I mean really, how glorious could it be if men would rather burn forever than live within its light? If men can routinely refute it? If it actually chose to lock a huge number of folks in torment forever?
I think we make choices in life and experience the consequences of those choices that are influenced by spirit powers that most of the time we're unaware of, but only God truly has so called "free will." I also think the only way we can truly be free is to do God's will.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
Quote from: Tom on June 11, 2015, 02:26:30 AM
I think we make choices in life and experience the consequences of those choices that are influenced by spirit powers that most of the time we're unaware of, but only God truly has so called "free will." I also think the only way we can truly be free is to do God's will.
:thumbsup:
"Not my will, but Thine." (Luke 22:42)
"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36)
Indeed, one is drawn to God by His sovereign Will and one chooses not to upset Him by opposing His Will out of love for Him - and one chooses to align one's own will with His perfect will. God's Will has preordained that all shall be as His Will, but He allows His children the freedom to choose His Will, not their will. It is only a matter of time before all wills are His Will. God gives wonderful gifts to His children, God is not a bully, God is Love.
Rehashing the will debate, I think I will leave off with that LOL
Caffus was asking about it in relation to the salvation of all and dealing with ETrs.
There are ETrs who would debate this IN NO DIFFERENT WAY THAN WE DO
And none of them would be any closer to the truth about that than we are- because nobody really understands it fully- for all the expert opinions to the contrary ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2015, 04:24:40 AM
Rehashing the will debate, I think I will leave off with that LOL
:yes:
Eagle NO DIFFERENT? They say we can freely choose to be eternally miserable. I think that, yes the concept of our will and Gods sovereign will is something non of us can fully understand in this life. But I do have to agree we must be able to choose to do good or evil by or own will. However I do not believe it's "free will" to do anything we choose. I believe our will is governed by God, for knowing what we would choose and in the end He works all those choices out for His final purpose for good for all His clay. :Peace2: He hardens Pharaohs heart, blinds the Jews and others to unbelief and gives faith to those He chooses when He chooses to do so. He can do anything He wants, allow or prevent evil as He wills. One thing for sure He is AWESOME God! :dsunny:
I appreciate the rehashings, being a newer member.
There are 10 pages and counting, so forgive me, but I'm just going to state my own beliefs as near a complete thought as I can rather than focusing on tidbits of material here.
---
I didn't will myself alive, nor did I will my family. The chemistry of my body and mind, the formative years of my life, none of that chosen. Subsequent years and experiences were set before me, largely in the form of schooling, and likewise the people I was forced to know and/or gravitated toward based on common interest. Foods I preferred, music I enjoyed, any opinion I had was impacted if not shared with others. Any conception made alone was based on, and biased by, what I already knew. Life becomes more complex, of course, the older you get, but isn't the premise the same? Do we decide anything? or are we drawn to the events in our lives?
Rom_3:23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
Didn't choose that! but embody it thoroughly...
I know I didn't choose God, but the other way around, for the second time. First in flesh, then in spirit:
...according as it is written, that Not one is just—not even one. Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!" Rom 3:10-12
also
Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also. Rom 8:28-30
Knowing that we (man) are born into such recognizable, even predictable individuality, and what purpose each and every one of us has, what (specifically) do we will?
This reminds me of an argument for UR in that, if an event in creation exists outside of God's will, He is flawed. If our will exists inside His, it's a misnomer. How does one have a will that is predisposed to us?
When Somebody calls you, is it you who answers, or is it the person Who called you Who answers?
If it is you who answers the call, then you require the ability to chose to respond in the first place, and you also require the ability to respond in the positive.
Certainly, it is preordained that you will answer, yet your will is involved in that outcome.
Furthermore, as God's children with Eternity to grow and expand in, I think we should give God some credit as to what He has given this ability to chose for, rather than simply limiting it to this short but invaluable 80 odd years.
Peace and Progress
I was perfectly fine believing God controlled everything. After all scripture says we are the clay and He is the potter. But then some say if we have no will how can He receive love from us. Love should be given freely. Well He chose us and made us, He can make real love just as He made our flesh and blood its still real. I believe at times He does control details of situations to bring about His will. Think about all the people who had to be controlled to cause the death of Jesus to happen just as was written. I'm fine with all being Gods doing. However...if we have no choice in anything we do how can we need mercy, grace and forgiveness? I can understand redemption of us all..but mercy, forgiveness, grace? I cant understand unless we are blamed for our choices and how can that be if we have no will of our own?
Dear Caffus, God has made us in His Image, and therefore I believe that we are made out of Love because God is Love. Therefore I believe that it is true to say God can "make love" in that respect.
But Love, by very Nature, wants to give and give of Itself, and therefore there is hardly any sense in Love "forcing" others to love Him. Surely Love has made it so that all of His children can be in the position to love Him with real, genuine love from their very inner beings?
And if we in the flesh, through Jesus Christ, can love God now whilst blinded by the sight which blocks out Spirit Life, then how much more when the mists of earthly ignorance have faded away?
Peace.
This is what I believe, regarding free will.
We can all say NO to God, of our own. To say yes to God, we need the Holy Spirit, to assist us, as we are dead in our sin.
We can choose or not, God's will for us. If we could not choose, we would not be God's children, but only programmed to do His will. And, yes, Caffus, we could not love or hate for that matter, freely. Adam and Eve would not have sinned, because they could not have made a choice, which God did not allow.
However, God has control over all, in the sense that He can change conditions, circumstances, and events, so that our choices are not infinite, but limited, according to His will.
The story of Moses trying to escape Egypt, and his experiences with the Pharoah and the plagues, etc. are a good example. Pharoah could make choices, but the consequences would cause him to pause and think....to say the least.
Included in this, is the fact that God knows our heart, and has knitted us in our mother's womb, thus, He is able to know how we think and feel, and what will effect our choices. God can also have an impact upon our environment, through supernatural events, as well. He can also manifest Himself to us, such as when Moses encountered the burning bush, too.
So, yes, we can make many choices, but God can limit the choices available to us, and the consequences that ensue. He can also add a wide variety of circumstances to this mix. And, He knows how we will respond.
And, He made us, knowing what the future held, for each of us, which is a huge factor, as well.
Hope that makes sense to everyone. Please do not hesitate to ask for clarification. That should be interesting to me, as well as to you. :ghaha:
:2c:
What I don't understand is why God gave us the ability to choose in the first place. I see nothing wrong with being programmed to serve God. How has choice helped humanity? I really don't think God needs us to choose him to be his children but this is just my opinion. It also sounds like God being all in all means there will be no more choice.
Quote from: Aerex on June 11, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
What I don't understand is why God gave us the ability to choose in the first place. I see nothing wrong with being programmed to serve God. How has choice helped humanity? I really don't think God needs us to choose him to be his children but this is just my opinion. It also sounds like God being all in all means there will be no more choice.
But, if we have no choice, how can we ever really choose God? Then, we could not love....or hate.
We would be servants, and not children of God.
I believe God wants us to see what we will choose, and learn from it. That is what He desires....that we learn and grow, and become more and more like Him, in the process.
As UR people, I think, more than most, we would think it is the journey, and not the destination, that is the most important. We know where we will all finally be.
As I see it, Aerex.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Many of the questions which arise concerning this topic can be very adequately explained by this article by AP Adams:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/005FreeMoralAgency.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/010FreeMoralAgency.htm
:cloud9:
Quote from: joeteekay on June 11, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
Many of the questions which arise concerning this topic can be very adequately explained by this article by AP Adams:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/005FreeMoralAgency.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/010FreeMoralAgency.htm
:cloud9:
:dsunny:
Quote from: Dandelion on June 11, 2015, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Aerex on June 11, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
What I don't understand is why God gave us the ability to choose in the first place. I see nothing wrong with being programmed to serve God. How has choice helped humanity? I really don't think God needs us to choose him to be his children but this is just my opinion. It also sounds like God being all in all means there will be no more choice.
But, if we have no choice, how can we ever really choose God? Then, we could not love....or hate.
We would be servants, and not children of God.
I believe God wants us to see what we will choose, and learn from it. That is what He desires....that we learn and grow, and become more and more like Him, in the process.
As UR people, I think, more than most, we would think it is the journey, and not the destination, that is the most important. We know where we will all finally be.
As I see it, Aerex.
I also find that the destination is actually here already although we are on a journey.
This sounds contradictory perhaps, but God is unravelling Himself through the Christ within, so we have God both now and also He will forever be revealing Himself on our journey as there is no end to Love.
But we have to cooperate willingly in my opinion. I do not think it is as complicated as many make out. God is no less a Sovereign Protector if He allows His children to make choices which have consequences - this does not negate His Plan, rather it fulfils it because His laws are for the upbringing of His children.
Wonderful, and I know the elation of others in such a thought.
Quote from: Aerex on June 11, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
What I don't understand is why God gave us the ability to choose in the first place. I see nothing wrong with being programmed to serve God. How has choice helped humanity? I really don't think God needs us to choose him to be his children but this is just my opinion. It also sounds like God being all in all means there will be no more choice.
I think all of God's creatures are "programmed to serve God," as you say, even though we do have the power to make choices that are always influenced by spirit powers. Even those who work for the Adversary "serve God" because they provide a contrast to God's love as darkness to light, and even they will eventually be reconciled to God. We don't choose God. God chose us before the disruption of the world. When God is all in all, it will be our choice because we'll be overwhelmed with the love of God.
This is a very complex issue...I can see a way no will can be true and mercy and grace still necessary as we still missed the mark, sinned. ..and must be corrected and redeemed even if not blamed. But it seems to me that sometimes we are blamed truly guilty and must be sorry and repent before forgivnes is granted and other times we arecontolled completely. Jesus showed no anger when He said Father forgive them for they no not what they do."
He seemed to be angry and cocerned mainly with the sin of pride and self rightousenes. I do believe now that we have a limited will of our own. Like we as parents are supposed to overcome are children's will when they want something we know is not good for them. Our Father does for us..difference is He never goes weary and His love never fails. :Peace2:
I think the only way "no will," as you say, can really be true is if we're dead, but I think the thing is that the human will is not really what is meant by "free will" because, whether we believe it or not, we're subject to spirit powers. If we're wise, we'll be subject to God rather than the Adversary, but faith is a gift from God that some have and some don't. I believe a time will come though when all will know, not just believe, and all will willingly and gladly subject themselves to the love of God when God is all in all.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInPhilippians/Philippians05.html
It seems to me free will would only discredit God, giving power to man.
I think the terrestrial experience is to teach us what love is, I mean what it really is, by making a profound distinction. I believe those who are called may have a better understanding of love in this age, but still very incomplete (until being made whole?). I certainly wouldn't suggest that God doesn't desire our love any more than suggest He doesn't love all, but why have someone to love if they don't understand it? Furthermore, why be loved by ones not good? I love God now, seeing pieces of a beautiful puzzle, yet not even knowing the image, how unremarkable is my love?
We all have desires, certainly. Even those detract from will though, as I see it. For instance, an addict desires a vice, but perhaps it is his 'will' to stop.
Google search of perceived free will scripture: I see action and reaction, but still no evidence that we perform any deed outside the will of God.
I meant no will of our own to use apart from His will. For instance children can do stuff we don't want them too....but then we are to correct them..even when they are strong willed against doing things our way. That is limited will...to me. No will to me means everything we do is only what God as planned for us to do be it good or bad...and He works out every detail for good in the end of the ages.
Quote from: Tom on June 11, 2015, 06:50:36 PM
We don't choose God. God chose us before the disruption of the world.
We do choose what we want to believe.
God chose who before the foundation of the world? Each individual? God chose us, who would believe, but not the individual. The individual goes through a life of choice. The doctrines that you have chosen, may well be entirely wrong........how would you know?
The only way that you know is by the fruit that you enjoy in your sovereign life. You have chosen what you want to believe and you are satisfied with the results of those choices.
Does God have faith in mankind? Did God put His faith in mankind? Did God leave our lives up to hope? I say yes. God had one strong man, the man Jesus Christ. The rest are left up to faith, in this life. God believed that mankind would and could make the right choices. In no way do I automatically make the right the choices because God ordained it. I learn to make good choices, but there are no guarantees, other then the fact that God is love. Man becomes valiant though a faith that is worked, not a faith that is given.
Well we can agree to disagree. I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man. If we had the foreknowledge and wisdom of God perhaps we could make choices on our own accord. If we get into the argument that our choices really matter then it is safe to say that we have something to boast about.
Am I implying that we are mere puppets. Perhaps but my question to you would be why you value your choices.
Quote from: Aerex on June 12, 2015, 02:52:21 PM
Well we can agree to disagree. I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man. If we had the foreknowledge and wisdom of God perhaps we could make choices on our own accord. If we get into the argument that our choices really matter then it is safe to say that we have something to boast about.
Am I implying that we are mere puppets. Perhaps but my question to you would be why you value your choices.
We all have influences that effect our value system and choices. I am told that every man is endowed by his Creator with inalienable rights. I like this because it fits and works. It is an influence that I have thought about, tested, and found to be true. Liberty is an inalienable right, liberty is free will. I value liberty because God has entrusted it to me. Every part of live is not only a gift, but a responsibility, starting right with Adam and the Garden. I have come to love the things that God has entrusted me with. Life is an honor to live...........another inalienable right. Living life honorably is choice.
Good questins Aerex.
This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR. But I do believe it is an important one. I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding. But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that. As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father. He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe. :cloud9:
How can we put this, and how can we see for ourselves what is right in the sight of God ?
I recall reading the words of Jesus saying this Make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrrupt a TREE is known by its fruit
I asked Jesus how ? Jesus what does this mean ?
The first challege was understanding we are compared to trees , being the trees of knowledge of good and evil
so we have a chioce to make good fruit to God or bad fruit to God
from what is within our own trees of knowledge of good and evil
we reap what we sow the flesh is considered corrupted ''ruined '' and no good thing is in our flesh its useless on its own short stay here in being mortal
the good is the Spirit in a man being alone , is not good we need Jesus Spirit too as the double witness
seeing the spirit God gave mankind and seeing this must connect and be in union with the Spirit of Christ
I saw this one day when reading the bible Romans 8 Control by the Spirit
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness....
don't you know the Spirit of God dwells in you ? and YOU are the temple of the Living God , wow God is with us than , not some far off place
To my surprise I did not know this and just like a flash of Light out of no where '' something was revealed to me I never knew before
Gods Word is LIFE to the spirit man inside you , it moves us to think different than the ways we did before
I believe we choose the good and make it good fruit being repentant and change your mind to the'' Christ mind'' from that old carnal man of sin
that obedience Jesus Christ demonstrated to the Father is where you will inherit the TREE OF LIFE and the perfect and complete
fulless will come from choosing to make the tree good and its fruit good , this would be the works of faith in believing Jesus as His Word
and seek , knock and find for yourself as you become satisfied when He gives you the HOLY SPIRIT and all the good things in Jesus Christ to continue to come ...
I am not sure this is helpful
but it did help me when I was not consoled by not being able to understand Gods Word at all ... very hard place and do have compassion having the same troubles even today with some scriptures , but I have learned to trust Jesus to show me His way by the Spirit and truth
Jesus Christ is the one whom opens the seals up in the books of death and life by His Testimony /witness being the Spirit of prophecy
1 Cor 3
Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
...21So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
I have no desire to have or be anything apart from His will..as I trust it's always the best. No matter how painful duringthis age it maybe. I believe at the end of the ages when God prefects us all through Christ. There will be no evil and no longer need for any control.
Quote from: Aerex on June 12, 2015, 02:52:21 PM
I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man.
:iagree:
I think God has faith in the power of His love that's able to overcome all evil choices of men
Quote from: Abigail on June 12, 2015, 11:19:04 PM
Quote from: Aerex on June 12, 2015, 02:52:21 PM
I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man.
:iagree:
I think God has faith in the power of His love that's able to overcome all evil choices of men
It was a revelation to me as well. One verse made me ponder the fact.
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
God limited himself by giving us the responsibility of the ministry of reconciliation.
God must trust us to carry out the ministry. He put faith in us to do this on Christ's accord. We are in Christ and Christ is in us, so he has put faith in us through Christ who was proven trustworthy. Jesus Christ is the king of heaven, and far above all principality and power, and might and dominion, and any other name that is named among men. That one, the living Lord of heaven, who lives in us has given us the responsibility.
2 Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did exhort you by us; we beseech you in Christ's name, be ye reconciled to God.
Being an ambassador is a trust given by the one who sends him.
On a smaller level, in the smallest way, in every action, we show Christ in our daily lives. God does not do this for us, Christ does not force this, it is a relationship built on faith between all involved.
:peace2:
"Faith," from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."
"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed. (Hebrews 11:1)
I believe, have faith, that God doesn't need faith because he knows all.
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR.
I agree. It is a doctrine that comes up a lot when discussing UR, ET, and annihilation.
ET and annihilation must choose between who is responsible for the ultimate end of mankind. That is why the free will discussion comes up, it is either God or man.
The UR believer knows that God is sovereign and the ultimate end of each individual was purposed before the foundation of the world, It is inescapable. I'm mainly talking about the present heaven and earth when it comes to free will.
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
But I do believe it is an important one. I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding. But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that.
All things are of God, including our growing in understanding, at present we have time.
:)
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father. He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe. :cloud9:
God has limited himself to us, He will not control our affairs. God has given us responsibility, and He will not do our responsibility for us, there are no excuses........only forgiveness. When we are forgiven for not living up to our responsibility, we stand anew, to carry on with and in our responsibility. We will "stand anew" many times in our lifespan, for that I am exceedingly thankful.
Just talking Caffus, I appreciate you putting up with me.
ed
Quote from: Tom on June 13, 2015, 12:05:06 AM
"Faith," from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."
"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed. (Hebrews 11:1)
I believe, have faith, that God doesn't need faith because he knows all.
Omniscience..........cool. Yes, I believe in omniscience, God knows all. I have no idea, what that really means though, from God's point of view. How does God use omniscience? Does God control our thoughts because God knows our next thought? I'd hate to think that God knows exactly how and when I am going to make better decisions. Why does God need to resist the proud? What is the purpose if it is not to change the mind of the individual?
I think that the version of "God knows everything" is a comfort to many, and maybe an excuse for many..........an excuse to not live up to what God has entrusted to us.
Does the fact that God knows that we will fall short of His trust give us an excuse?
No, we are judged for it. Don't fear the fact that you are judged, for what you have been entrusted with; The one who judges you, loves you, and will help you, in your time need.
It comforts me to know that He is the Potter....
With nail-scarred hands.
I believe people make a lot of confident statements about things they are not sure of, and think it is faith.
Faith is not "The assumption and the boldness to stand hard on things about which God has not revealed all". The humility to say, well, we just can't know that because His ways are higher than my ways, is the wisdom of His way.
God establishes paradoxes to express thruths that go beyond carnal definitions and draw us further into His ways, and fellowship with Him.
"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?"
I believe God is omniscient, but do I know that He always uses His omniscience? Not really.
Can God limit Himself for His own pleasure and purpose? I think so, but can I make a confident statement about that?
Would be presumptious because I don't have all the information. His ways are higher than mine. :o)
He created us for what, Fellowship? How could you have fellowship with something you utterly control in every thought and deed?
Superman has x ray vision but does he look through every dress and every bedroom door?
The idea that God could build a wall around us that He can look through if He wants but doesnt unless we need Him to, is perfectly logical to me, because God is teaching us through experience, but He is also fellowshipping with us through the process, and I dont believe we are automatons.
And God saw that it was good? Why see that it was good. God knows everything before it happens so He experiences nothing.
God had discourses with many people in the scriptural history of our dialogue with Him.
I feel that fellowship is as phony as all get out if God knows every word before it is spoken, every thought before it is conceived. I think, even if He can work that way, He chooses not to work that way- and our fellowship with Him involves, by the very demands of the meaning of words like fellowship and communion, more freedom and interaction with God than most people want to know they possess.
The best way to maximize the blessing of that freedom is to take His yoke upon us, and walk in the Way. The way of life. God is teaching us His ways. Why would He do that if in actual fact He is manipulating every thought and motive and deed?
I personally think that way of looking at things is intellectually and spiritually stifling, and makes a mockery of play acting out of most of the greatest scenes of discourse between God and man recorded in scripture.
But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 03:04:47 AM
But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition
I agree, but I believe He made creation precisely the way He wanted it. The idea of making changes along the way doesn't seem like a reasonable perspective. I would say He did* what He wanted and it's playing out in what we call time. I would say our* perspective of fellowship is phony/incomplete. etc etc...
Quote from: ed on June 13, 2015, 12:12:13 AM
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR.
I agree. It is a doctrine that comes up a lot when discussing UR, ET, and annihilation.
ET and annihilation must choose between who is responsible for the ultimate end of mankind. That is why the free will discussion comes up, it is either God or man.
The UR believer knows that God is sovereign and the ultimate end of each individual was purposed before the foundation of the world, It is inescapable. I'm mainly talking about the present heaven and earth when it comes to free will.
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
But I do believe it is an important one. I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding. But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that.
All things are of God, including our growing in understanding, at present we have time.
:)
Quote from: Caffus on June 12, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father. He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe. :cloud9:
God has limited himself to us, He will not control our affairs. God has given us responsibility, and He will not do our responsibility for us, there are no excuses........only forgiveness. When we are forgiven for not living up to our responsibility, we stand anew, to carry on with and in our responsibility. We will "stand anew" many times in our lifespan, for that I am exceedingly thankful.
Just talking Caffus, I appreciate you putting up with me.
ed
Ed that's what Im here for Christian fellowship and learning from each other. :friendstu: I cant say I know on this issue...but I do believe God has ultimate control and has controlled things in detail in the Bible....like Christs death. So I do know there are times He totally takes control of situations to bring about His plan. Sometimes, it is necessary
Quote from: ian on June 13, 2015, 05:32:02 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 03:04:47 AM
But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition
I agree, but I believe He made creation precisely the way He wanted it. The idea of making changes along the way doesn't seem like a reasonable perspective. I would say He did* what He wanted and it's playing out in what we call time. I would say our* perspective of fellowship is phony/incomplete. etc etc...
I agree, and what I was trying to say about phony fellowship, etc. was a hypthetical view from my personal viewpoint of a paradigm where God controls our actions, reactions, thoughts and motivations to the minutest detail, as some believe. I am not critisizing them as phony, etc at all. Just defining the conclusions that result from that paradigm from my own perspective.
For instance, speaking again hypothetically- just because someone thinks God is producinf everything they do or think- doesnt mean He is.
What is, is, despite anyones definitons, including mine :o)
Gotcha. But I do think we are all exposed to God. Moreover, if He knows our future, we are powerless against it. Where then is the will?
Just my two cents, but I believe God had it all planned out before he even created mankind or anything else. I believe things are being played out exactly as God wants it to no matter what it is, every little detail. If this was not so then there would be room for error because man makes mistakes and he was suppose to make mistakes so he could learn. I think "learning" is the main purpose of our mistakes, troubles, and trials. I also believe we cannot learn all by ourselves, our wills or whatever you want to call it. God even provides us with our mistakes, I sure didn't choose any of them. :happygrin:
When you really think about it, all of these paths, roads leads back to the main source, God. We could not think, choose, work, you name it without God giving us the ability to do so. Are we robots, no, we have feelings, but even that is controlled by God. We have been given the ability to think, feel, see, hear, love but did we acquire these abilities on our own? NO. Any ability we have God gave it to us. We had no say or choice as far as of our own will to do anything at all, at least that is what Jesus said. The hardest thing for man to do it accept the fact that "of our own selves we can do nothing". This was meant to be also, so we could learn we need God.
Just the way I understand this. :Peace2:
CHB
"out of Him and through Him and into Him is all" (Romans 11:36)
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"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11)
Each has their own interpretation of Universal Salvation and God's Will in this matter, and how man functions in the whole scheme of things, whether he has any say in the matter, a little say in the matter or no say whatsoever even in the smallest way concerning his actions.
Many understand that God has ordained that all shall be healed, restored, made whole. I believe that He has willed this, it will happen, He has ensured it with the birth, life, sublime Sacrifice, and reappearance in accordance with the scriptures of Jesus Christ. The Spirit brings challenges, tests, temptations and experiences before us - but how we face them is not preordained except the final result. We may try many times to overcome a temptation but only after the thousandth time do we success never to fail again.
According to my understanding, around us all is influence of varying degrees - influence either by fallen spirits, evil in intent, or influence by those sent forth to minister to the heirs of salvation. We can choose who to listen to - it is how we learn.
I would like to pass on my opinion, if I may, or rather that which has become my opinion, as we are all influenced for good or for ill - influenced in what choices we shall make.
I believe that in the path in front, that which lies beyond the so-called grave, that the time must come when we, each one, must face Reality, must go back over the past and read the record of our lives. I am saying my opinion out of love for I have no other reason to say it.
When we stand before Truth, when we are shown the mighty provision round us to rise to higher things, when we see the messengers, the angels, and the power they supply, then we may have to face the fact that we turned from those who were of God, and threw in our lot with those who were arraigned against the Christ.
In that day if such a condition is our own, we will, perhaps for the first time, understand the pangs of anguish. Self condemnation will flay us like a whip with a thousand thongs, and more than that. In the measure that that which we did, that which we thought, that which we failed to build, affected others, in that measure so we must go through with thoroughness and minute detail everything that was amiss, everything that veered even in the slightest from the commandment of the Master to love our neighbour as ourselves.
I personally believe that we must witness with feeling those whom we injured because we turned from the steep hill and chose the valley of self-indulgence; turned from the Cross; turned from the sorrow; turned from pain; for we knew, indeed we knew the path that Christ took Himself; we knew the loneliness, the persecution, and that which we name the Crucifixion, and we cannot say within ourselves: 'I was ignorant of life as it is.' We certainly cannot say such a thing for did we not claim the God Who is Sacrificial Love for ourselves? The Saviour Christ spilt His Blood for us that we might be free from sin - yet we cannot ignore the law as He laid down as the most important commandments upon which all the law and prophets rest.
Yet, thankfully, I truly believe we have much we can do, and the opportunity comes each minute, by provision of a merciful God. It is never too late for anyone to come to the feet of the Christ - never too late; I believe: 'what a man sows that must he reap.' No one can learn my lessons for me, no, not even the One Who loves me best, Who has fought for me, striven for me and everyone over time.
God stands by the 'sinner', by the one who turns to that which we name evil - Christ and His messengers stand by such a one. They are waiting to help, waiting to lift, waiting to guide; but they cannot until the individual wants his Christ; the power of the Lord God of all is limited according to man's desire. Yet within us, however weak we may seem to ourselves, however bound, however restricted, within us is God - power, courage, endurance.
As a child in faith, in trust, I turn to the Saviour and ask Him to help me to be that which I long to be for His sweet sake, for the sake of that which is within, and for the sake of humanity as a whole, which, as yet, knows not God and wants not that which the Father can supply. Within us is wisdom, within us is purity, within us is a capacity for sacrifice hitherto undreamt of by ourselves. The world may seem to hold, but with Christ we are more than conquerors. We have that strength which we draw from Him.
But, in my own opinion, the only way to provide a fitting temple for the Holy Spirit within is by work. First by work. Faith is glorious, but faith without effort is as the sunshine behind the clouds. Work - that form which is service - our opportunities are not limited, we are not bound by much; our responsibilities do not forbid us taking up the work that we fain would do. God has provided a way. We can work with our thoughts. We can create power by the Grace of God, spiritual power, as we go about our daily task, as we pass among those in the busy streets, as we take our way to purchase that which is necessary for the nourishment of the body; in our offices, in our homes we can create power, God power, by the tender wish to help another, by the sending out of healing thoughts, by compassion, by pity, by giving a portion of that which we have.
We can be missionaries of the Most High even though we may, by sickness, be fettered to our bed, for within us, doubt not, within us is God; and we are gifted by Him with abilities and resources we have not yet found. But the only way to find holiness is by dedication, by the consecration of the temple so that the Holiness within may have freedom, may have the power to express itself, through the physical, and to inspire others to do likewise.
One day each child of God must be of that perfection. One day we must represent holiness - that fragment of Divinity which we represent - and not only we ourselves, but every soul must return to perfection. But the way is by service, by giving out of ourselves to others, by lifting the sorrowful, by going to the bonded and telling them the good news...'Brother, sister, arise! Within you is God. Arise, and take the blessing of the Christ.' What we have is dead if it is for ourselves alone - it must be made universally available to come alive.
That is my opinion on how we interact with God, with His preordained result of the grand consummation, of His Will that ensures that each and every one of His children know the fullness of life in all its aspects, that nothing is hidden from them because they know the whole range. And the Way is the Way of Jesus the Christ.
This is just my own opinion.
Peace in Christ
I personally do not believe the Creator is anywhere near upset as to how each of His individual creations react to any given situation.
A Truth, HE KNOWS and He does not find any unexpected good or bad outside of anything that He has planed in any one soul. I believe that perhaps WE, with our own thought process, consider that any one of those[our] thoughts, maybe outside of what The Creator had in store for each individual to produce is...well "free will" thinking, which has no merit, at least in scripture. Now should you believe that the first man was outside of the Creators Will, then maybe man's will is the greater will....I do not. :2c:
Our minds..each of our minds are unique( one and only; single; sole)having nothing or equal in a decision as He offers/produces the cause and circumstance from what we make for our choice. Every hair is numbered and every star is named......does anyone really believe that Our Father does not KNOW how each of us will react to the CAUSE HE produces? :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2015, 03:47:26 AM
I personally do not believe the Creator is anywhere near upset as to how each of His individual creations react to any given situation.
A Truth, HE KNOWS and He does not find any unexpected good or bad outside of anything that He has planed in any one soul. I believe that perhaps WE, with our own thought process, consider that any one of those[our] thoughts, maybe outside of what The Creator had in store for each individual to produce is...well "free will" thinking, which has no merit, at least in scripture. Now should you believe that the first man was outside of the Creators Will, then maybe man's will is the greater will....I do not. :2c:
Our minds..each of our minds are unique( one and only; single; sole)having nothing or equal in a decision as He offers/produces the cause and circumstance from what we make for our choice. Every hair is numbered and every star is named......does anyone really believe that Our Father does not KNOW how each of us will react to the CAUSE HE produces? :2c:
Amen!! Yes, when He put the tree of good and evil in the garden He knew what would happen.
CHB
CHB
"O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I'm far away"
There is no thought more comforting to the soul than his Saviour being inside and outside of every situation in which His little ones could be. He always waits for the response to His Call. The Lord is within and without. He follows His lost sheep into the valley.
Knowing and being pleased are two different matters.
Is the Lord pleased when His child steals or kills against His Will? Personally, I think not. Does He know what will happen. Yes.
Is the Lord pleased when His child does not do these things and obeys His Will? Personally I think yes. Does He know what will happen. Yes.
In my opinion, man must learn that he cannot escape his personal responsibility to think and act and will in accordance with God's own Will. That is why He has laws that are designed to teach his children as to their ways...
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven...For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."
Luke 6:37
"...be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that he shall also reap..."
Gal.6:7
"...every man's work shall be made manifest...if any man's work abide...he shall receive a reward. If any man's work be burned (destroyed) he shall suffer loss..."
1 Cor.3:13-15
"...that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
2 Cor.5:10
"...God will render to every man according to his deeds..."
Rom.2:6
"For he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"
Col.3:25
"...The Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works..."
Matt.16:27
"...And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's work/labour (ergon) ..."
1 Peter 1:17
"...And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man as his work shall be."
Rev.22:12
"...dead were judged according to their works..."
Rev.20:12
Man must learn to use his will properly so that he does not abuse it: "Thy Will be done, not my will be done".
That is just my opinion.
Peace
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2
Nice post, lastpost. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dandelion on June 14, 2015, 08:14:51 AM
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2
Nice post, lastpost. :thumbsup:
For it is [/b]God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b]
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 14, 2015, 11:34:35 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on June 14, 2015, 08:14:51 AM
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2
Nice post, lastpost. :thumbsup:
For it is [/b]God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b]
CHB
:thumbsup:
Ok so we have a self will but God can influence it when ever He chooses and He uses what ever we choose for good in the end knowing all before hand. Like in the story of Jonah He used his disobedience to be a symbolic story of Christs death and resurrection as he was in the whale three days as Jesus was in the tomb. Of course this doesn't excuse disobedience because we should desire to please Him...but its also Him that gives us faith and the desire to please Him.
If we have a self will where did we get it? It always goes back to the main source, God. How do we do anything outside of the will of God? It is impossible unless we are more powerful than God is.
CHB
Kind of like......even if we were to give God lemons, He can make lemonade, since He made the lemons, water, and sugar.
He is working all things together for good.
This is impossible with man, but with God, all things are possible. :dsunny:
All things with God are possible.
Man tends to imagine that God thinks like he himself thinks.
Man thinks that God is not capable of creating life that can think free for itself.
Man forgets that God is God and can do anything He wishes.
If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.
God is Spirit.
Man is made in God's Image.
Man is made of God but in a fragmentary way.
Through Christ all things were made.
Christ is the light that lights up every man that comes into the world.
God is at the centre of every man.
God is within, and God is transforming man's will to His own Will.
Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.
He lets man do this. He wants man to do this. He Wills man to do this.
God's Will is that man shall conform his will to His Will.
God gives far more lavishly than man with his own limited generosity allows.
When man opposes God's Will, evil results, and the God who is Love is crucified. This is the God who is Love.
Man is keen to say that God is Love and yet he limits God's Love as to His most loving gift of precious individual life.
Man needs to learn to give the Creator more credit as to His ability to create.
In Christ think Peace, give Peace, be Peace
Quote from: lastpost on June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
All things with God are possible.
Man tends to imagine that God thinks like he himself thinks.
Man thinks that God is not capable of creating life that can think free for itself.
Man forgets that God is God and can do anything He wishes.
If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.
God is Spirit.
Man is made in God's Image.
Man is made of God but in a fragmentary way.
Through Christ all things were made.
Christ is the light that lights up every man that comes into the world.
God is at the centre of every man.
God is within, and God is transforming man's will to His own Will.
Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.
He lets man do this. He wants man to do this. He Wills man to do this.
God's Will is that man shall conform his will to His Will.
God gives far more lavishly than man with his own limited generosity allows.
When man opposes God's Will, evil results, and the God who is Love is crucified. This is the God who is Love.
Man is keen to say that God is Love and yet he limits God's Love as to His most loving gift of precious individual life.
Man needs to learn to give the Creator more credit as to His ability to create.
In Christ think Peace, give Peace, be Peace
:iagree:
:iagree: Amen !
Let the Holy Spirit move in ways and wonders that we have long since forgotten and lost ....
Quote from: lastpost on June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.
Yes, but that is a scary thought once you really think about it.
Quote from: lastpost on June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.
So, do we take credit for this if we are conforming to his will?
Just asking.
CHB
I believe He conforms our will to His..by the things He causes and or allows to happen in our lives and that we definitely can't take credit.
There is no credit but to Him,
'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,
awho has given to Him that He should repay"
Good Morning.
To me, the concept of "taking credit", in my opinion, is a red herring.
Man has become so used to separating himself from His God through "sin", that man considers himself a separate entity to God. Man has blotted out God but God has not blotted out man, and waits and waits upon His Call.
God has always been with man and in man. Man's life exists because the life in him is of God. The children of God have been given individuality by God, hence they are His, of Him.
"Taking credit" for the power and life of God has no meaning.
"Taking credit" is a concept belonging to the lesser self.
"Taking credit" is of the world.
When the child of God has experienced those moments of communion with the God who is Love, in those moments the child of God knows something, even a little, of the Joy of having the power and the Love of God move in his being - but it is enough to permit him to know in Whom he has his being, and Whose Being is in him.
At those moments the child of God is moving in Him - and He is moving in the child of God. These moments are moments, because the benefits of the earth life are too valuable to waste, and temptations and tests must be met and overcome.
It is precisely the Joy of knowing the God who is Love - the Joy of feeling His power in ones very being, as being the real life - that removes all that is attached to the lower self (the baser side of man created through the separation of sin) so that it no longer has any meaning - and with the communion of the child of God with his God, any possible notion of "taking credit" is simply not a point of consideration - it belongs in a different sphere, it belongs to man's thinking.
"Taking credit" belongs to man's thinking that wants to take unthinkable Divine Love and "think" It into a compartment, which is something he has needed to do from ancient times when he considered evil things to be not only normal but desirable, a time when any more Divine understanding of the One Supreme God was impossible due to his earthy state, long before the higher revelations of the God who is Love were brought with the physical appearance of the Christ of God in Jesus.
When the child of God experiences God moving in and through him, he knows that his very being belongs to God, he feels the power of God, in miniature, pulsing through his spiritual body and he is uplifted in the form of something nearer to God's Will for him.
It is only man's thinking that such a state should be frightening, when really it is the most beautiful and wonderful state that a human being will reach while still in the flesh, and this being but the smallest indication of what God has in store for His child - the CHILD OF GOD.
The willing cooperation of the child of God with his God, is the complete union - the union is complete. It is what God desires with His child with a yearning far exceeding man's present capacity to take in, except in the smallest way. Even we mere humans with our extremely limited and often selfish ideas of love compared to the Divine Love of God, have the capacity within us to know this union even now.
This is just my opinion.
All is Peace in God
I believe it is a given , in order to have a relationship with the Lord there is obedience and that is not credited to you whatsoever
its a given , you cannot just hear and that is it , the obedience is the very action of hearing
But first there has to be some kind of spiritual awakening ...
I only say this because of the parable Jesus spoke of as an unworthy servant and the apostles put this in the spotlight as the ''rejected branch''
Even Jesus said the lukewarm ''member '' will be spewed out of His mouth , or rejected
as not up to the standard or test and'' in the race'' , you are to do as you are told to do , it is your your job or duty and responsibility TO DO as you are taught ... obedience is better than sacrifice ... the sacrifice is already done in Jesus Christ and a thankful and worthy servant and though a son Honors his Mother and Father , being the New creation that does praise God
you are to be praised for doing what you are supposed to be doing in the first place ?
Luke 17 The apostles said to the Lord, "Show us how to increase our faith."
The Lord answered, "If you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May you be uprooted and thrown into the sea,' and it would obey you!
"When a servant comes in from plowing or taking care of sheep, does his master say, 'Come in and eat with me'? No, he says, 'Prepare my meal, put on your apron, and serve me while I eat.
Then you can eat later.'
And does the master thank the servant for doing what he was told to do? Of course not. In the same way, when you obey me you should say, 'We are unworthy servants who have simply done our duty.'
For me this explains two things Jesus told us to do , one is when, Lord did we see you ?and He said , when I was hungry you fed Me and when I was
thirsty you gave me drink and a stranger you took me in etc , to the least of these ''little ones'' you have DONE it unto Me
and the other is If you give a cup of cold water to these little ones in the name of a disciple , you will not loose your reward , this being to me , loose your place in Gods kingdom , or IS to say ''remain in the Body of Christ '' the LIVING WAY ...
" As Jesus continued on toward Jerusalem, he reached the border between Galilee and Samaria. As he entered a village there, ten lepers stood at a distance, crying out, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
He looked at them and said, "Go show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed of their leprosy.
One of them, when he saw that he was healed, came back to Jesus, shouting, "Praise God!" He fell to the ground at Jesus' feet, thanking him for what he had done. This man was a Samaritan.
Jesus asked, "Didn't I heal ten men? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?" And Jesus said to the man, "Stand up and go. Your faith has healed you."
This speaks volumes to me , I believe that though they , the 10 thought they were healed , and they were physically or outwardly appeared ''cleansed '' they were NOT WHOLE ... it was the one who came to praise God for his healing and fell at his feet , that is to me as being ''faithful ''' learned of Jesus teaching and worshipped the Lord in Spirit and truth that become whole and complete /perfect healed inside and out
This one out of the 9 received COMPLETE HEALING FOR BEING '' OBEDIENT IN FAITH ' just being' ' faithful in a little thing '' received more , much more than just the mercy of GOD . Matt 5
This One is an example of obedience'' as to use his faith '' being the mercy of God , faithfully .
What of the other 9 than ? Did they use the mercy of God on themselves faithfully ?
Were they considered justified ? Were they righteous in Gods sight ?
I only see one made righteous and believe it was in Gods will that , he alone did what was right , as to thanking God and willing for change , learn of Jesus and at his feet and loving back what Gods love showed him personally . he was healed and done nothing but asked in the right heart ..
So for me , the other 9 were deceiving their own hearts ...
James Hearing and Doing
...25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
26If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.
27Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
I can only think its letting everyone know the source of your own healing , being thankful to Him and loyal to Him by faith and showing those whom need mercy as to point to Jesus Christ that He being lifted up will draw all men unto Himself ..
Quote from: CHB on June 17, 2015, 03:55:52 AM
Quote from: lastpost on June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.
Yes, but that is a scary thought once you really think about it.
I did think about it too. I thought about God creating a man with free will, knowing that the man would run into adversity, because it was set up that way in the garden. I thought about after the man chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God did put limits on the man of freewill. We have limits, but as lastpost said, we can find communion with God, and not without effort on our part..........................I think that there certainly are times when every avenue has been exhausted, and the realization that God is sovereign invades our running, the only effort we put into that was running. Dragged back is what I am. I run, but the realization of God I have never forsaken. It is a personal choice with me, I prefer to believe, because I have tasted that the fruit of the spirit is indeed where true life is.
Quote from: CHB on June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
So, do we take credit for this if we are conforming to his will?
I am given credit for believing. When I was young I "bought the feild", and sought God with tears and prayer. I did those things until the reward of peace was finally given........I "wrestled with God".
Do "I" get credit? God was always there, but God was lost to me in the doctrines that were ingrained in my soul. The soul cleansing was entirely God's work, but I had to move to make it happen.........for my choice to move, God rewarded my with peace.
Should I take credit? There is always a remembrance of the victories of my youth, that help me to stay grounded in the present. How did I get those victories? How was I involved? How do the victories of the past influence my choices in the present?
Time to clock into work...............great stuff in this thread.
As a Lutheran, I was taught that we can only say 'no' to God of our own, because we are dead in our sins.
Only through the Holy Spirit, can we say yes. I believe God calls all of us, all of the time, to be one with Him, no matter our background or belief system.
In Romans 10, we are told this:
...12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?...
We are also told that faith comes by hearing the word of God, in other verses, too.
What sparks us to take that step? I believe there must be a step of acceptance on our part.
'Blessed are those who believe, yet have not seen.'
Running to work, but when I get back, late this evening, I will spend some time on this.
Good point, Ed. :declare:
:2c:
So, an addendum to yesterday.....
I believe God knows all, and knows what we will do in any situation, but, to me, that has nothing to do with free will. It has to do with Him not living in time and space, as we do.
I am thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden, and eating the apple. They made a choice, and were free to do so.
I think in many ways, we are here, first, to give God glory, but, another aspect of our lives on earth is to learn who we are and to make constant choices, which are the journey of our lives. God uses the journey to teach us, and prepare us for eternity. He knows what is in our hearts, and puts us in situations, environments, surrounds us with certain people, etc. which shape our lives, but within that, we do have choices to make.
Just a few more thoughts, on this topic.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 17, 2015, 07:12:17 AM
There is no credit but to Him,
'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,
awho has given to Him that He should repay"
Amen!!
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 17, 2015, 07:22:48 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 17, 2015, 07:12:17 AM
There is no credit but to Him,
'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,
awho has given to Him that He should repay"
Amen!!
CHB
:o)
I think Im beginning to understand this topic more clearly now. He gave us wills seperate from His. He knew what we would do with them, doesnt mean He is pleased when we choose wrong..even though He knows He will work it into His good plan. Our wrongs cuase pain, to Him and His creation. I believe thats why 1 Corinthians 13..says love is long suffering..He suffers with us until all are made perfect in Him at the end of the ages.
:iagree:_
Quote from: Caffus on September 02, 2015, 03:23:09 AM
I think Im beginning to understand this topic more clearly now. He gave us wills seperate from His. He knew what we would do with them, doesnt mean He is pleased when we choose wrong..even though He knows He will work it into His good plan. Our wrongs cuase pain, to Him and His creation. I believe thats why 1 Corinthians 13..says love is long suffering..He suffers with us until all are made perfect in Him at the end of the ages. TT
I don't think it is as simple it sounds because it does God was pleased when He bruised His son and we know that Christ death was a crime. All
things happen for his pleasure. The better question is if that wrong doing has a purpose in mans perspective it is evil but in God's perspective it is good.
I dunno. That sounds awfully simple to me ;o)
I think He was pleased becuase He knew thruogh Christs death all death and sin will be overcome. It doesn't mean the process doesn't hurt His heart as well.
I have wondered about this for quite some time now.
It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart.
God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?
CHB
I believe He grieve's the 'marred' image. not man in His image...the whole creation groans..for the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
.....the suffering so intense..that men pray for death[He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked corrupt image.[eat from the
tokogae and ye shall die in the day ye eat of it]
I await our brother's for any insight they may have through the Hebrew language.
Quote from: CHB on September 05, 2015, 07:50:41 PM
I have wondered about this for quite some time now.
It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart.
God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?
CHB
I have a feeling this is just a way that God relates to us I guess. Weren't there many times that God asked questions that He should know the answer to. Its not like He didn't know as some people might think.
Personally, though I believe God wants us to always choose His will above our own, and calls us all to this, I don't think He is sad when we don't, in the sense that He knows the end of the story, and He knows that love wins, and the ending is a happy one. If anything, He sees us trip and fall and that we are then sad and confused. Just like when we watch a baby learning to walk, we know they are going to fall many times. Sometimes it is painful......the falls hurt sometimes, but we know the child will not walk if they do not go through that stage. And, so with our God, as He watches us.
As for Him being GRIEVED and REPENTANT because of us.....I would think that is because His only son had to suffer and die to save us. He knew in deliberately making Man, that would be the price of Man's salvation. He knew that giving us the ability to choose, we would often choose evil, but, without that choice, we could never eventually choose love. To give us that choice, meant we would break His Law and the price would be death......and His son, fully human and fully God, would be the only one who could rectify that dilemma. And, He knew that we would be forgiven, but would have to live with the consequences of our choices, until we were made whole in Christ. But, that leads us back to Him knowing the end of the story.
Definitely a messy process, but a necessary one.
To God be the Glory!
:HeartThrob:
Yes, He knows the end is a wonderful one. I believe our God is a deeply feeling God. When His creation suffers He suffers with us....during the process even though He knows the end is good.
Quote from: Aerex on September 05, 2015, 10:50:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on September 05, 2015, 07:50:41 PM
I have wondered about this for quite some time now.
It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart.
God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?
CHB
I have a feeling this is just a way that God relates to us I guess. Weren't there many times that God asked questions that He should know the answer to. Its not like He didn't know as some people might think.
I agree. God does ask questions he knows the answers to. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not his way.
CHB
In my mind, He asks those questions to get us thinking.....He knows the answers.
D.
If I had free will I could will myself to not sin.
Yet God, who commits no evil and tempts no man with evil, does not bind our wills to sin.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust and enticed.(James 1)
And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time. 7The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst; 8And then that Evil One will be revealed, whom Our Lord Yeshua will consume with a breath of his mouth, and will destroy him by the revelation of his coming. 9For the coming of that one is in the activity of Satan in all power, signs and false wonders, 10And in all the error of evil which is in the perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth in which they would have Life. 11Because of this, God sent them the activity of delusion that they would believe lies. 12And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.(2 Thess 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English))
to me this hass all been said and done in the garden...when Eve was deceived of the serpent..and believed not the truth..and sin entered
all men..and all men bore the image of the corrupt one. The judgement was/is ye shall die...sin condemned in the flesh...and all
men appointed to die once.
surely the deceiver is 'the works of the devil' and his is the activity of delusion to the mind of man.
death and life is in the power of the tongue.......Christ said 'I judge no man" 'Ye know not what spirit ye are of"
'These words that I speak,shall judge you' Do you believe He took away the sins of the whole world?
Quote from: eaglesway on December 25, 2015, 12:47:57 PM
Yet God, who commits no evil and tempts no man with evil, does not bind our wills to sin.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust and enticed.(James 1)
And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time. 7The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst; 8And then that Evil One will be revealed, whom Our Lord Yeshua will consume with a breath of his mouth, and will destroy him by the revelation of his coming. 9For the coming of that one is in the activity of Satan in all power, signs and false wonders, 10And in all the error of evil which is in the perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth in which they would have Life. 11Because of this, God sent them the activity of delusion that they would believe lies. 12And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.(2 Thess 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English))
"Yet God, who commits no evil.........."
What do I do with ......just wondering? :HeartThrob: :Peace2:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for
I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold,
I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Jer 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold,
I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold,
I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that
I would do this evil unto them. Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted
concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
Mic 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do
I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Doesn't it say that God Himself does not tempt but doesn't he uses sicked creatures to do this?
The evil He brought upon them was the fruit of their own thoughts(Jer 6:19). In this context "evil" is judgment from the North- not wickedness, or anything to do with temptation. He is contrasting evil with peace- saying, "I can create peace for you if you yield to me, or I can bring chaos and destruction upon you- as the fruit of your own deeds and thoughts". But there is no place in the scriptures that even hints that God does, or tempts anyone with, wickedness- neither is He saying that he creates wickedness, or tempts anyone with it..
We've had this discussion about Isaiah 45 and the others before, and as before, I dont really think you are looking at the verses within their specific context, but then, maybe James and John and Paul just misunderstood all those verses :dontknow:. As I see it the prophets are all speaking about God bringing judgment on Israel for their wickedness, not God Himself doing evil in any sense of wickedness.
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air.
All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.
Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?
I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.
QuoteThis is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I think this is talking about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.
Quote from: Aerex on December 26, 2015, 03:24:30 PM
The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air. All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.
Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?
I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.
QuoteThis is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I think this is talking about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.
:dsunny:Amen
Pro 4:7 The principal thing is wisdom; acquire wisdom, And with all your acquisition, acquire understanding;" :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Aerex on December 26, 2015, 03:24:30 PM
The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air. All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.
Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?
I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.
QuoteThis is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I think this is talking about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.
Good points, Aerex, especially the last paragraph :)
In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.
רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.
Ronen
James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
Matthew 5:47 - 48
...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1 John 1: 5 -6
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...
I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.
:2c:
D.
Quote from: gregoryfl on December 26, 2015, 11:21:17 PM
In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.
רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.
Ronen
How about unfolding all that, please I missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Dandelion on December 26, 2015, 11:38:47 PM
James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
Matthew 5:47 - 48
...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1 John 1: 5 -6
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...
I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.
:2c:
D.
"I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God..."
Evil did not "evolve" evil was created by the Lord, for His purpose and plan. If we cannot accept that truth man will continue to make excuses and take responsibility from the Creator.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was "knowledge" in that tree, knowledge of "good" and "evil"
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
so we know that God is good, but should the Lord God not have created/made
"evil" how were we to get knowledge of either? The Creator, Father, the Lord planted that tree of "good and evil" and He Is good and He created/made evil for His and our benefit. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: oops :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 27, 2015, 03:49:51 AM
Quote from: Dandelion on December 26, 2015, 11:38:47 PM
James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
Matthew 5:47 - 48
...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
1 John 1: 5 -6
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...
I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.
:2c:
D.
"I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God..."
Evil did not "evolve" evil was created by the Lord, for His purpose and plan. If we cannot accept that truth man will continue to make excuses and take responsibility from the Creator.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
There was "knowledge" in that tree, knowledge of "good" and "evil"
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
so we know that God is good, but should the Lord God not have created/made
"evil" how were we to get knowledge of either? The Creator, Father, the Lord planted that tree of "good and evil" and He Is good and He created/made evil for His and our benefit. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: oops :2c:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Remember they hated Jesus without a cause ....
They thought their knowledge was their power ..
Jesus come to prove that LOVE IS the only power that changes things and makes the good , perfect in GOD ...
Quote from: shawn on October 29, 2012, 05:50:00 AM
Something just hit me as I was reading EWs post. When God stated, lets make man in our image, most people believe...poof man was in the image of God. But, what if the making of man like God is a process, and that process involves what we are talking about here...the education of the spirit through the threshing process of the flesh? And that education is through mans limited will within Gods sovereignty?
That might already be obvious to some but that is a new thought for me.
Each of us needs to be transformed, in other words......going back to Nicodemus' discussion with Jesus. We must be born again. That is a very interesting interpretation of that quote. I am still not sure if that was what was meant here, but I definitely think that it is true. It is a process to make man into God's image.
Great thoughts, Shawn. Thank you for sharing that!
D.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 27, 2015, 03:39:23 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on December 26, 2015, 11:21:17 PM
In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.
רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.
Ronen
How about unfolding all that, please I missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:
Sorry if it was confusing. Translated English words, as well as any translated word, tends to come prepackaged with an idea that may or may not be contained in the original word. Evil is definitely one of those words, which is why so many cannot accept a God who does evil.
In Semitic thought-form, all wickedness is evil, but not all evil is wickedness. The Creator of all does both good and evil, but never wickedness. When a father does evil to his son in America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although evil, is not wickedness. In fact, it is good.
You see, the problem is this, in America no one would ever consider the grounding of a child as an evil act. Yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. A dentist who performs a root canal likewise would never be considered as doing an evil act, and yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. This is because the English word 'evil' is laced with ideas that have nothing to do with what the original word רע meant.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on December 27, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 27, 2015, 03:39:23 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on December 26, 2015, 11:21:17 PM
In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.
רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.
Ronen
How about unfolding all that, please I missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:
Sorry if it was confusing. Translated English words, as well as any translated word, tends to come prepackaged with an idea that may or may not be contained in the original word. Evil is definitely one of those words, which is why so many cannot accept a God who does evil.
In Semitic thought-form, all wickedness is evil, but not all evil is wickedness. The Creator of all does both good and evil, but never wickedness. When a father does evil to his son in America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although evil, is not wickedness. In fact, it is good.
You see, the problem is this, in America no one would ever consider the grounding of a child as an evil act. Yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. A dentist who performs a root canal likewise would never be considered as doing an evil act, and yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. This is because the English word 'evil' is laced with ideas that have nothing to do with what the original word רע meant.
Ronen
Thanks and that is my understanding. :dsunny:
This doesnt really explain why God is a proponent of using evil for good which is why I brought the argument as to why so many people have a hard time understanding that God is capable of doing evil. No one has a problem with a father disciplining his child but they do have a problem with how it is done. Logic tells us that if some being tells you to sacrifice your son for me. You dont listen to it.
When God does evil he really does evil on which people began to question God as the Bible says : Why did you make me like this
Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.
Quote from: Aerex on December 27, 2015, 04:52:58 PM
This doesnt really explain why God is a proponent of using evil for good which is why I brought the argument as to why so many people have a hard time understanding that God is capable of doing evil. No one has a problem with a father disciplining his child but they do have a problem with how it is done. Logic tells us that if some being tells you to sacrifice your son for me. You dont listen to it.
When God does evil he really does evil on which people began to question God as the Bible says : Why did you make me like this
Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.
Well the first sign of evil was from a tree in His garden that God created ....
There many metaphors and spiritual meanings that can apply , Like hidden layers of truth .
Truth is the literal meaning does a real poor job of describing God ...........
I believe it ultimately has to do with growing into the recognition of just who we truly are, and who our Source truly is. We actually can see it all around us in so many ways. Think about the following:
Why do most great stories involve some sort of horrible thing that needs to be overcome?
Why do most of those stories involve characters who go through periods (sometimes for most of the story) of dislike for each other?
The horrible things that occur, and the disliking of those involved in the same storyline, are all the very evils that actually bring about something that otherwise can go unnoticed:
Appreciation
Recognition
Who truly appreciates a cold glass of water, and recognizes its value?
The one who is totally satiated and in an air conditioned room.
The one who has encountered the evil of a harsh desert for a period of time.
The danger to me is not the questioning of God for the evils he brings on his creation, but rather the indifference of a people who do not even acknowledge or appreciate God at all. The one who is questioning God is taking the progressive steps toward truly seeing God.
Job saw this. (Job 42:5)
Asaph saw this. (Psa 73)
Jeremiah saw this. (Lam 3)
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:18-23)
Eager expectation kindles awareness and appreciation. It is only through the agency of suffering (vanity, bondage, decay, groaning, travail, pain) that this takes place. Will this satisfy those who wish to find fault with God? Definitely not. Satisfaction will only be experienced in the revealing of the glory within them.
Ronen
:thumbsup:
Well said, Ronen :thumbsup: :dsunny:
I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just believe him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up except some text that was written 2000 years that may have been mistranslated. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious point of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but I don't think God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.
Quote from: Aerex on December 27, 2015, 06:19:16 PM
I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just beleive him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious poribt of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.
Hi Aerex ,
To simplify and start from the beginning , we can see TWO trees and Two Laws in effect in Gods garden , a metaphor for good and evil mix and brings life for a time and death in it ] being this world and the temporary things it holds .
I see only two trees in the garden we are told is one is not to touch or eat of this knowledge of good and evil [Adam and Eve eats of ] exposing the sin in mankind being made of both Spirit in nature Gen 1 and flesh and blood in nature Gen 2
This is the warring between the two natures ...
The other is the Tree of Life that remains protected by Gods design [Jesus Christ is that WORD OF LIFE though the Spirit of Life ]
Adam being the spiritual image of God and Eve was pulled out of
representing the Son of God and woman [church or birthing and saved though child bearing of living things ]
Evil is the result of sin and death is its reward , The tree of knowledge of good and evil found in this Law of Moses is the awakening of mankind .
To the sure death [It is the BODY OF DEATH ] that satan contends with and can only accuse though this Life and death LAW in its members .
That it seems everyone born of woman goes though , the frailty of being human and temporary and to seek after Spiritual life in Jesus Christ
Romans 7 and 8 cover that real clear as being alive without the law , till the law comes and puts us to death and to be delivered from the body of death though the BODY OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST ,,,,
We , none had no hope at all till Jesus come in the fulness of time , just the promise of His coming and it was that faith that kept those alive though the process , being of Abraham's seed that all trees have seed after its kind and nature ..
It was not until GOD made grace a covering for all to hide under His Love , Being Jesus Christ /WORD OF TRUTH that any could believe in ...
Without faith it was impossible to please God , and it was proven over the course of time that many had that lack in them , but history has proven God kept a few examples of faith exercised as proof of this TRUTH by the way they LIVED by faith in GOD
as in Adam all die but as in Christ all shall be made alive , this is Gods working though mankind by His Loving ONE OF A KIND SON , JESUS CHRIST ..
Whom was sent to save all that was lost ,,
We have a better hope and covenant/promise now , than the law of Moses , the one that satan can and does produce evil offspring out of , being prideful and full of knowledge but no love , the lack of LOVE proves the fruit produced is corrupt and not fit to eat ..the mixed seeds are life and death .
Only the Holy Spirit produces the PERFECT FRUIT IN LOVE , JESUS COME in flesh as a baby our most perfect and prime example of How God does this and we are His children and offspring though the birthing of the sons of God again by Jesus Christ and His body / the true Church that is of Heaven and not of this world , this has no time limit on it .
The Seed/CHRIST /WORD OF GOD are planted in our hearts and we LIVE though Him , all things are of Him and for Him and though Him that are Spiritual in nature and eternal by Gods SPIRIT OF LIFE .
The Levitical priesthood stops it is earthly in nature and could never please God though its weakness of flesh and blood ,this knowledge inherits death and the Melchizedek priesthood begins Spiritual in nature and this knowledge of Love, though Jesus Christ is the bond of perfection and inherits eternal Life ...
Hebrews 9
we suffer being flesh and blood and God come to show us that suffering in CHRIST BODY , eat of my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE IN YOU ,,,spiritual comes in the natural , but the natural come first to prove the Spiritual ...
Both natures war within each other over the body . and whos Body it belongs to for a time , We know Jesus always gets the Victory over death ...
HE IS LIFE itself ..
Aerex,
I think the appreciating God part will come later for us all, even those of us who have a glimpse of the awesomeness of God in this life really can't truly grasp or appreciate exactly who God truly is and what his plan and the end result truly is.
Also, I see you are fairly young (me too, I'm 32). Most of my friends are atheist or agnostic. I was too for a while. I don't think we can convince anyone to believe. That comes from God. They are learning and will continue to learn on their own path just like we did. Showing love is the most powerful tool to show them God, because God is love. We can't argue or intellectualize with them to make them believe.
Honestly I would probably still be an agnostic if it wasn't for God working within me.
The bible is a strange old collection of writings, let's be honest with ourselves. Only God can "unlock" the bible so we can read it and understand the meaning behind it.
There are so many different religions, how do I know what I believe is right? Because God worked within me and showed me in a way I couldn't deny.
Why don't they believe? It's not time for them to believe.
Patience and trust are hard but that's what we need to do.
In the mean time try to be an example of love and forgiveness. Both are lacking in the world.
Wonderfully said , GOD IS LOVE .. :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on December 27, 2015, 07:15:42 PM
Quote from: Aerex on December 27, 2015, 06:19:16 PM
I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just beleive him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious poribt of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.
Hi Aerex ,
To simplify and start from the beginning , we can see TWO trees and Two Laws in effect in Gods garden , a metaphor for good and evil mix and brings life for a time and death in it ] being this world and the temporary things it holds .
I see only two trees in the garden we are told is one is not to touch or eat of this knowledge of good and evil [Adam and Eve eats of ] exposing the sin in mankind being made of both Spirit in nature Gen 1 and flesh and blood in nature Gen 2
This is the warring between the two natures ...
The other is the Tree of Life that remains protected by Gods design [Jesus Christ is that WORD OF LIFE though the Spirit of Life ]
Adam being the spiritual image of God and Eve was pulled out of
representing the Son of God and woman [church or birthing and saved though child bearing of living things ]
Evil is the result of sin and death is its reward , The tree of knowledge of good and evil found in this Law of Moses is the awakening of mankind .
To the sure death [It is the BODY OF DEATH ] that satan contends with and can only accuse though this Life and death LAW in its members .
That it seems everyone born of woman goes though , the frailty of being human and temporary and to seek after Spiritual life in Jesus Christ
Romans 7 and 8 cover that real clear as being alive without the law , till the law comes and puts us to death and to be delivered from the body of death though the BODY OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST ,,,,
We , none had no hope at all till Jesus come in the fulness of time , just the promise of His coming and it was that faith that kept those alive though the process , being of Abraham's seed that all trees have seed after its kind and nature ..
It was not until GOD made grace a covering for all to hide under His Love , Being Jesus Christ /WORD OF TRUTH that any could believe in ...
Without faith it was impossible to please God , and it was proven over the course of time that many had that lack in them , but history has proven God kept a few examples of faith exercised as proof of this TRUTH by the way they LIVED by faith in GOD
as in Adam all die but as in Christ all shall be made alive , this is Gods working though mankind by His Loving ONE OF A KIND SON , JESUS CHRIST ..
Whom was sent to save all that was lost ,,
We have a better hope and covenant/promise now , than the law of Moses , the one that satan can and does produce evil offspring out of , being prideful and full of knowledge but no love , the lack of LOVE proves the fruit produced is corrupt and not fit to eat ..the mixed seeds are life and death .
Only the Holy Spirit produces the PERFECT FRUIT IN LOVE , JESUS COME in flesh as a baby our most perfect and prime example of How God does this and we are His children and offspring though the birthing of the sons of God again by Jesus Christ and His body / the true Church that is of Heaven and not of this world , this has no time limit on it .
The Seed/CHRIST /WORD OF GOD are planted in our hearts and we LIVE though Him , all things are of Him and for Him and though Him that are Spiritual in nature and eternal by Gods SPIRIT OF LIFE .
The Levitical priesthood stops it is earthly in nature and could never please God though its weakness of flesh and blood ,this knowledge inherits death and the Melchizedek priesthood begins Spiritual in nature and this knowledge of Love, though Jesus Christ is the bond of perfection and inherits eternal Life ...
Hebrews 9
we suffer being flesh and blood and God come to show us that suffering in CHRIST BODY , eat of my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE IN YOU ,,,spiritual comes in the natural , but the natural come first to prove the Spiritual ...
Both natures war within each other over the body . and whos Body it belongs to for a time , We know Jesus always gets the Victory over death ...
HE IS LIFE itself ..
I think that was well said.
Quote from: GodIsLove on December 27, 2015, 10:48:40 PM
Why don't they believe? It's not time for them to believe.
Patience and trust are hard but that's what we need to do.
In the mean time try to be an example of love and forgiveness. Both are lacking in the world.
TRUTH!
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Interesting terms, futility and slavery to corruption.
My view is that God instituted chaos. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void....."
That is also what a carnal(natural unrenewed person) man is.(a double minded man is unstable in all His ways)
"and the Spirit hovered over the waters...."
This is how God deals with carnality. He hovers over it with His spirit, like a mother hen hovering over her eggs.
"Then God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light. God saw that it was good and separated the light from the darkness"
Once God's word penetrates the chaos there is separation.
"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, bone and marrow and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.For all things are open to the eyes of Him with which we have to do"
Who's intentions? Certainly not God's intentions, but rather- our intentions, making manifest the secrets of our hearts.
"His face was like the sun shining in its strength and a two-edged sword came out of His mouth and His eyes were like flames of fire"
We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in our bodies.
"Their conscience either excusing or accusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ"
That Day has already come for us, if we have heard His word, we are children of the light. God has spoken into the chaos and the light has been separated from the darkness and the form of Christ is arising out of futility and slavery to corruption.
"The outward man is decaying because of sin, the inward man is being renewed because of righteousness"
And the whole creation groans with us as we await that glorious revelation(at the redemption of our bodies)through which we will participate in the restoration of all things.
"For all those whom he foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His son."
"For He brought us forth by the word of truth to be a kind of first fruits of His creatures"
"I count not the suffering of this present time to be worthy to be compared to the glory to be revealed to us."
"That in the ages to come He might reveal the riches of His kindness towards us in Jesus Christ"
"For all things work together for good to them that are the called according to His purpose"
"Many are called but few are chosen"
"But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
"He that overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me on My Father's throne."
"Choose ye this Day whom you shall serve, whether to serve the gods of the nations that surround you or to serve the living God"
"Today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness, "So they saw my works for 40 years therefore I said in my anger- these people always go astray in there hearts, so they shall not enter my rest'"
So God set about separating again, " and every unbelieving member perished in the wilderness"
Wilderness, chaos, futility, slavery to corruption- no what I mean? :o)
Therefore "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end"
Not fall away into hell. Fall in the wilderness before you inherit the promise of being conformed to the image of Christ! Fall into futility!
His Spirit hovered over them in the wilderness and His word(Moses) separated them. His Spirit hovered over them in Israel and His word(the judges) separated them. His Spirit hovered over them in Babylon and His word(the prophets) separated them. His Spirit hovers over us and His word separates the wheat from the chaff, and burns the chaff with unquenchable fire. "Today, if you hear His voice".
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
God created chaos and set us within in it. Gave us the keys to unleash it upon ourselves, and gave us the keys to be released from it.
But if we dont turn them, we are futile, slaves of corruption, and out of that corruption comes evil, and wickedness, and altho God has forgiven us, until we forgive we cannot be released, and we cannot see forgiveness until we see wickedness as our own- because who needs to be forgiven for that which they did not conceive?
Every man sins when he is drawn away by the lust of his own heart and lust conceives sin and sin conceives death. And death is its own reward.
All this to teach us life, so that we will walk in the Day, so that Light will shine out darkness and and Christ will be formed in us by the Spirit who is hovering over us and the promise of life will grow from the dawn to the fullnoon, from glory to glory- our promised land.
As I see it God does no evil, our own evil brings judgment upon us in the form of corruption, and slavery and chaos and if we become so wicked as to be predators and abusers He may set His own hand upon us- like my daddy did me when I got too far out of line.
But His Spirit still hovers, brooding over the waters, and sooner or later that word will breakthrough- "Let there be Light, and God will see it, and it will be good."
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief(death), in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(old man) will be destroyed with intense heat(light), and the earth(flesh) and its works(sin) will be burned up(like dross).
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God(on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ), because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning(prince of the power of the air), and the elements(principalities and powers) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth(resurrection), in which righteousness dwells(the glorious liberty of the children of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit). 2 pet 3
Better agree quickly with the adversary while you are on your way to the judge, lest the judge deliver you to the bailiff and the bailiff hauls you off to jail. You shall not get out until you pay the last penny.
Ah but then what glorious freedom- the blood of Jesus reconciles all- but not before they give glory to God. :o)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
And in the end, when the chaff is consumed and the dross burned away and every hidden thing brought to light by the light of His face and the sword of His mouth and those flaming eyes- all will, one by one to the last, give glory to God for His grace and the blood of the Lamb and the glory of His unmerited favor and sacrificial love.
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
:banana:
Eaglesway:
:thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: Aerex on December 27, 2015, 04:52:58 PM
Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.
I agree.. I think also He knows how many, if not all, at one time or another will shake their very fist at Him.. To habitually harden the heart against Him, I believe, is the unable to be forgiven sin.. unable to be forgiven while they are habitually hardening their heart.. For such, which we really cannot persuade to 'forgive' Him, my attitude (besides love and humility, gentleness) is to think, would they rather not have any rational or reasoning faculties? Such faculties include - sooner or later - the ability to make choices. (Tho highly limited, thank Goodness!)
When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree?) came into being. Was this unexpected? Or did He make a mistake? :rolllol:
I'm thinking He prefers to deal with "chaos" before instituting perfect un-breakable paradise/perfection. Why will it be unbreakable (imo)? Because every one will fully understand and have deeply engraved upon their heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and comprehension of good from evil (
life from non-
life /
death). Once all are sealed upon their heart and forehead, they will fully comprehend that He iS life (and Perfection). And to wander away from full union with Him can only - without His intervention - end in a minute puff of self destruction. Apocalypse/the lesson - the unveiling. (Period. No more chaos.) :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 29, 2015, 08:34:30 AM
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed..
:iagree: :goodpost: :cloud9:
Quote from: marie glen on December 29, 2015, 04:16:37 PM
Quote from: Aerex on December 27, 2015, 04:52:58 PM
Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.
I agree.. I think also He knows how many, if not all, at one time or another will shake their very fist at Him.. To habitually harden the heart against Him, I believe, is the unable to be forgiven sin.. unable to be forgiven while they are habitually hardening their heart.. For such, which we really cannot persuade to 'forgive' Him, my attitude (besides love and humility, gentleness) is to think, would they rather not have any rational or reasoning faculties? Such faculties include - sooner or later - the ability to make choices. (Tho highly limited, thank Goodness!)
When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree?) came into being. Was this unexpected? Or did He make a mistake? :rolllol:
I'm thinking He prefers to deal with "chaos" before instituting perfect un-breakable paradise/perfection. Why will it be unbreakable (imo)? Because every one will fully understand and have deeply engraved upon their heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and comprehension of good from evil (life from non-life /death). Once all are sealed upon their heart and forehead, they will fully comprehend that He iS life (and Perfection). And to wander away from full union with Him can only - without His intervention - end in a minute puff of self destruction. Apocalypse/the lesson - the unveiling. (Period. No more chaos.) :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 29, 2015, 08:34:30 AM
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed..
:iagree: :goodpost: :cloud9:
This is me. My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God. I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no. Not sure why though.
Quote from: NightFlight on December 22, 2016, 11:55:00 AM
This is me. My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God. I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no. Not sure why though.
I think the whole thing, ultimately, is psychology.. with many paradoxes... (Jesus on the cross as a strong enough image to, ultimately, pierce every psyche.)
Paradox such as "He hardens whom He will" but also "you will find me when you seek me with all your heart"..
And "God is in full control" (not a scripture verse!) and "choose
Ye this day, life or death" (the way of life or the way of death/shadow)
Many paradoxes, where both poles are true!
Because of my own experiences, I strongly believe in changing our habits of thinking.. changing the deeply burned neuron pathways of our own mind.. I went through a time when I would mentally put a big X over every negative thought I found myself thinking, and deliberately replace it with a positive thought. It's amazing how many negative thoughts we can have! (There is creative POWER in our thoughts and words?) Some negatives required an XXX! The PIT would start with the tiniest cloudy, negative thought.. and grow.. til it was like being spiritually beat with a (spiritual) 2 by 4. And every thought was negative, and hurtful. The deep anger at God.. deeper anger at self.. calling self names.. It may differ from person to person, but I think we all have shook our fist at God.. in one way or another.. Eventually I concluded He was big enough, He could take it.. Praise God we come out of that.. But I do believe as others have said here, that He understands our anger (and frustration at life!)
I think it's true it's "all in His timing" but paradoxically, I believe it's true "work out your own salvation with awe and trembling".. That it's hard work on our part. "Be renewed in your mind by the washing of water of the Word of God" - Not sure I got that quite right.. but I believe it means to be earnest and studious and faithful in
saturating our mind with His Word. Maybe not the history of the Old Testament wars and God's anger over babe sacrifice, etc..
But the New Covenant Promises of the New Testament.. And the prophets prophesying paradise/perfection. This is the reading schedule I like to use, let's me 'enter the story' more fully - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html (https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html) 2nd schedule, scheduled in order.. (for instance reading the letters in the order believed written, getting to know the comparison of Paul's travels and his letters; Psalms is always very helpful to me if battling dark thinking. Does every thought have fruit? We can renew our mind via His Word(s) .."the entrance of thy word giveth light".. "a lamp.." in a dark place..
Each negative thought piled atop one another, until a deep dark cloud covers us, smothers us.. I think one of the things we are learning is choice of thought.. "whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, think on these things.." .."seek and you shall find.. knock and keep knocking.." And best of all - "be still.. and know I am God.." .."not in the thunder, not in the howling wind.. but the still small voice.." the Quietness of His Spirit.. His peaceful, loving voice, drifting down like a feather..
The other voice is harsh.. not soft.. not kind.. We are a vessel. Captain of our own ship.. But! even better! "Rest in the Lord" and let Him be captain.. Yield, yield, yield directly to Him.. and when we get to the floor of our being.. it's time to start pulling up floorboards.. and keep yielding.. God will send a good cry and a good laugh.. He is infinitely kind.. Loves YOU deeply.
How do I know that? "His Word is TRUTH" - "God iS love" (all of it every where.. all the love, is Him.) The heart is a noisy, clamorous place.. but we can be still, and know He is God..
QuoteThis is me. My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God. I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no. Not sure why though.
Are you asking God to help you not hate Him?
None of us get healed of everything before we die...............we all live with some stuff that we want healed that is not.
Faith that God does indeed care, even though bad things are happening, for reasons that we don't know, is part of the life we experience.
It seems some of us have decided to praise God anyways. Others go the other route.
I hope you find the reason for faith that you seek. I hope you find that God is with you, even in great distress. I find that kind of faith.....................I don't know why, other then God has been faithful all of my life. My experience encourages me to keep faith. To the last breath, faith will sustain me. That is built through practice and prayer. In time, you will prove that faith is worth the effort, no matter the circumstance. When faith is all that you are left with, it is enough.
Man's will and God's will. This is claypot and it's been years since I've been on this site and I am glad I am back. You all have a fantastic discussion going on here.
Yes man has a will and yes God has a will. Maybe it's better sad that God is the ultimate will. It's my personal belief that the bigger guy wins. Our wills are within God's will.
When I say the bigger guy wins I am not talking physically because I am well aware that many times the smaller person can beat a physically bigger person. I am talking overall bigness. God is infinitely bigger in every way then man. God's will will be done.
Hey night flight, God's timing my friend!
Well the first sign of evil was from a tree in His garden that God created ....
There many metaphors and spiritual meanings that can apply , Like hidden layers of truth .
Truth is the literal meaning does a real poor job of describing God ........... Quote from Rose Red
The tree in the Garden of Eden was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
For there to be good, there must be evil. Good is a relative definition. Something is good, only because in some way, it is different from something evil. There exists an inate comparison.
So, of course, there had to be good and evil. But, until they bit the apple, Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil. They only knew good. There disobedience to God's request, brought them the knowledge of the comparison, and of course, dire consequences.
They had a choice. They could have declined the invitation to bite the apple. Their choice....their free will....brought the falleness of this world. The first of many bites of apples, in a figurative way. But, God was ready with an antidote to their disobedience. It was a long time before God sent His only Son, to change the tide for all of us, but He did it.
As was foretold in the story of Joseph and his multicolored coat, in Genesis 50:
15When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!" 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father charged before he died, saying, 17'Thus you shall say to Joseph, "Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong."' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21"So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.
When we mean evil, in the form of sin, God uses it for good. What an amazing God we serve!
And, we see this message again in Romans 8:28:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
We can make choices that have the ability to bring us closer to God, or further away from Him.
But,God is always ready to use our transgressions for good, when we believe in Him and give Him our lives.
He wants us to surrender our will to His will.
We are washed in the blood of Jesus, and made righteous.
We will not avoid the pain and sorrow that sin brings, or the consequences, but we will not be judged by what we have done, but by what our God has done, to bring us back to Him.
D.
Quote from: shawn on October 29, 2012, 05:50:00 AM
Something just hit me as I was reading EWs post. When God stated, lets make man in our image, most people believe...poof man was in the image of God. But, what if the making of man like God is a process, and that process involves what we are talking about here...the education of the spirit through the threshing process of the flesh? And that education is through mans limited will within Gods sovereignty?
That might already be obvious to some but that is a new thought for me.
Yes, I thought about the same thing but only after I became to believe in UR. I believe our will is transformed into the will of God through the things we go through. He forums us and when we are done we will be made into His image, we also will have hearts of compassion, we also will to have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We will be made into His image, the image of Perfect Love.
:thumbsup:
Amen! :iagree: :iagree:
God declared the end at the beginning, He declared man's end at the beginning of His word ..... it was not a revelation to me, but it was to Scherryl (2KnowHim), when she told me of this, it changed my whole viewpoint of Genesis chapter 1.
Through this understanding, "Light" will become all things ..... including us
"Light" to the mind is knowledge, understanding and wisdom
"Light " to the heart is compassion, forgiveness and love
"Light" to the spirit is everything else contained within the "Light" of the mind and heart
Let there be Light!
and "Light" to the soul is LIFE .....
Thank our heavenly Father that He will bring ALL things into the Light/Life (into Christ)
Amen! He sure will.. I often think, what is the best teacher? (besides God's HS that is!) This life of missing the mark - individually and collectively, which can only crash n burn as the saying goes.. unveiling to our heart, mind and psyche, truth from error / untrue.. life from death.. i.e. good from evil/not good.. what works - building on The Rock / Truth and what can never, no never, ever ever work, i.e. building on sands..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
The Beginning (John 1)
(Genesis 1:1-2)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
D.
In my whole spiritual life i have learn..
We all need to come to His will
No way.. His will need to be done..
let us surrender him with new faith and hopes
Quote from: Dandelion on July 01, 2017, 05:02:10 AM
The Beginning (John 1)
(Genesis 1:1-2)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
D.
Amen! Praise the Lord! We can totally rest in that truth.
While I read that it came to mind.. about the adversary, and the often question - was the adversary created in the beginning as evil?
I think no, but the option of straying was switched on, so to speak, with him.. It's not as some seem to think, that somehow the adversary's revolt was a surprise to God! :LH:
Yet, I thoroughly hate it, and can't accept it, when it is put forth that God created the adversary, and created evil, instead of engineered things so the wandering would occur at the beginning of things (what He is creating).. Seems to me all need to fully understand good from evil.. It may seem like not much difference - and in a sense, there isn't! Whether He created evil as evil, or engineered it so the wandering into it could occur.. Not 'free-will' but able to, and guided down that path of wandering.. "all we like sheep have gone astray".. Engineered just so, for God's purposes.
Yet I think the fruits of both differ views greatly.. One way of seeing it - God created evil as evil, the adversary was created evil (why would he have to repent then?)
If God created evil as evil and the adversary as evil, then it seems to also be the thought that Hitler, etc, all such, was God acting through them. I cannot accept that. That is almost, but not quite, as bad as the ET idea. (why would anyone be required to repent if our evil deeds are God doing them through us? Yes, I come across that idea all the time!)
Look at how that wily serpent approached Eve? -- In mankind's infancy -- Didn't God know that was going to happen? Indeed, Adam and Eve were the seed, through which all of us came about; the corruption of them and thus the seed of us all, corrupted so early on - so that it spread to all. God is a genius! And of course that is an understatement.. greatly. :gsmile:
Quote
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it...
.... :cloud9:
John 7:17 NIV
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
If we have NO free will then why a need for a 'savior'? :dontknow: If we have no free will we cannot CHOOSE to sin and so we are NOT sinners so who is the 'savior' saving? :punish: ...God? :eek:
QUESTION:- :LH:
To those that DON'T believe in human free willl...
...If someone slapped you over the back of the head for no reason :punish: who would you blame? - Them or God?
In other words would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer? :dontknow:
Who is REALLY to blame? :Chinscratch:
If you would blame the person you are a hypocrite no? :LH:
I believe we have a free will. (As far as choosing 'flesh or spirit' goes). :banana:
I also believe that when we 'know as we are fully known' we will willingly subject ourselves to God. - A mutual relationship. :gimmefive:
I think the extend of free will is a mystery.
But I do think our will is restrained by lots of factors:
We didn't choose where to be born, what family to be born into, our culture, our genetics, our socioeconomics, gender, race, the time period we were born, our physical health, our mental health.
We didn't choose to be born at all!
Then other environmental factors can happen without our permission or choice that can affect us and how we make choices: abuse, accidents, bullying, natural disasters. The list is too long to write.
Our wills are also slaves to selfish or otherwise sinful desires. Slave inherently implies a lack of freedom of choice.
THEN the Bible tells us God's will is stronger than ours (who can resist His will etc) so if and when he does come to us we cannot resist, at least in that moment. Not because he is controlling, but because we belong to him and are His, made from him and for him.
So any free will we have I believe is constrained and influenced by the factors I referred to above AND is only allowed because God is allowing us to exercise our own wills within all these parameters and confines. He can and does step in and other times it seems like He lets us go it alone but for a purpose IMO, for learning or some other purpose.
So if I was feeling the Holy Spirit working in me and someone slapped me for no reason, I'd probably feel thoughts like "Father forgive him, he knows not what he is doing" or "he hit me because... (he was hit as a child and doesn't know a better way...or he hit me because he just lost his job and can't deal with his negative emotions appropriately and I just happen to be here to feel his wrath...or he hit me because he is mentally ill...etc).
If I was feeling carnally minded of course I'd be mad, and I'd probably lash out and hit back.
Just my :2c:
I think also, to answer the question of if we don't have free will why need a savior:
What about this scenario:
A small child wanders into a pool and is drowning. They freely chose to drown themselves, aka suicide? No, it was done out of ignorance and was basically an accident, the kid didn't know better. The factors at play (the pool wasn't locked, the kid wasn't supervised, the kid was born into a family with a pool, the kid didn't know how to swim) and the child's ignorance caused the need for a savior.
Or you can take the example a step further and say someone threw the kid in the pool. They then didn't even choose to ignorantly wander in, but they still need to be saved.
Full disclosure:
I said all this and do believe this is somewhat how it plays out but I admit ignorance to the details as I think we ALL are currently a little fuzzy on how it works.
However in my every day life I do have both thoughts:
I can see where a behavior of mine or someone else's comes from (past events, trauma, mental illness, ignorance etc) but I still do get upset when I perceive someone is wronging me or I feel guilt and remorse when I do something I believe was the wrong choice. So I think we can recognize our wills are pulled and influenced and constrained and still try, within the limited confines, to make the best choices we can given our abilities at the time, and pray to God to help us make choices that align with his will and that will be the most loving choices possible.
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 24, 2018, 03:11:51 PM
I think the extend of free will is a mystery.
But I do think our will is restrained by lots of factors:
We didn't choose where to be born, what family to be born into, our culture, our genetics, our socioeconomics, gender, race, the time period we were born, our physical health, our mental health.
We didn't choose to be born at all!
Then other environmental factors can happen without our permission or choice that can affect us and how we make choices: abuse, accidents, bullying, natural disasters. The list is too long to write.
Our wills are also slaves to selfish or otherwise sinful desires. Slave inherently implies a lack of freedom of choice.
THEN the Bible tells us God's will is stronger than ours (who can resist His will etc) so if and when he does come to us we cannot resist, at least in that moment. Not because he is controlling, but because we belong to him and are His, made from him and for him.
So any free will we have I believe is constrained and influenced by the factors I referred to above AND is only allowed because God is allowing us to exercise our own wills within all these parameters and confines. He can and does step in and other times it seems like He lets us go it alone but for a purpose IMO, for learning or some other purpose.
So if I was feeling the Holy Spirit working in me and someone slapped me for no reason, I'd probably feel thoughts like "Father forgive him, he knows not what he is doing" or "he hit me because... (he was hit as a child and doesn't know a better way...or he hit me because he just lost his job and can't deal with his negative emotions appropriately and I just happen to be here to feel his wrath...or he hit me because he is mentally ill...etc).
If I was feeling carnally minded of course I'd be mad, and I'd probably lash out and hit back.
Just my :2c:
I think also, to answer the question of if we don't have free will why need a savior:
What about this scenario:
A small child wanders into a pool and is drowning. They freely chose to drown themselves, aka suicide? No, it was done out of ignorance and was basically an accident, the kid didn't know better. The factors at play (the pool wasn't locked, the kid wasn't supervised, the kid was born into a family with a pool, the kid didn't know how to swim) and the child's ignorance caused the need for a savior.
Or you can take the example a step further and say someone threw the kid in the pool. They then didn't even choose to ignorantly wander in, but they still need to be saved.
Full disclosure:
I said all this and do believe this is somewhat how it plays out but I admit ignorance to the details as I think we ALL are currently a little fuzzy on how it works.
However in my every day life I do have both thoughts:
I can see where a behavior of mine or someone else's comes from (past events, trauma, mental illness, ignorance etc) but I still do get upset when I perceive someone is wronging me or I feel guilt and remorse when I do something I believe was the wrong choice. So I think we can recognize our wills are pulled and influenced and constrained and still try, within the limited confines, to make the best choices we can given our abilities at the time, and pray to God to help us make choices that align with his will and that will be the most loving choices possible.
Hi thank you for the response!
...If the child wandered into a pool (to see what it was like or to deliberately kill themself) and they have NO free will then the child didn't wander into the pool (how can they with NO free will? (they are a robot essentially)) ...So It was God that did it.
IF that child needs a 'savior' then who is the savior saving? That child (an entity with zero free will) or Himself for wandering into the pool in the first place?
It's just the same if someone throws the child in the pool...The child has no say in it and the person throwing the child in has no say either. So the need for a savior begs the question 'who is being saved' since none of these people are making choices?
This is what I believe the TRUTH is though...
If I made a robot with 'free will' (50/50 it could go 'left or right', 'up or down', say 'yes' or 'no' etc etc) and it eventually falls into a pool and I save the robot. - Who have I saved?
Well...I've saved the robot. It had free will (the robot acted INDEPENDENTLY of ME)...(I didn't force it or tell it to do anything). But I saved it from drowning (or rusting in this case!).
This proves there was 'something' to be 'saved'.
If there was NO free will there would be NOTHING to save (because the puppet and the puppeteer would be the same person).
With regards to the head slapping thing. - Why be mad at the person (with no free will) who did (didn't do it cos hes no free will) it? - That's a bit like getting angry at the puppet instead of the puppeteer?
computer files and programs can be'corrupted"..and act without trhyme or reason when they do.positive/negative,good/evil...choice
is mute when corrupted.Enter MALWARE/ENMITY....... :2c:
Quote from: sheila on July 24, 2018, 06:00:03 PM
computer files and programs can be'corrupted"..and act without trhyme or reason when they do.positive/negative,good/evil...choice
is mute when corrupted.Enter MALWARE/ENMITY....... :2c:
Can you elaborate a little, I don't understand what you mean.
The robot could only become 'corrupted' if the creator of the robot (and also creator of the whole universe) subjected it to corruption as the robot has no free will nor creative power (to than extent)...
Here's a funny analogy!
Hitler is told to go in to be judged by God by an angel...
"Good luck in there dude" says the angel and he closes the door...
Hitler sees God sitting opposite, eating some raisins, looking really happy.
God notices him.
"Hitler! Come over! You're looking super today...Love the 'tash" says God.
Hitler is a bit dumbstruck.
..."Ohhh...That's nice of you God...So um... Aren't you going to punish me?"
"What for?"
"Well...Quite a few things"...
"You didn't have a free will...Hardly your fault is it! Now enter into paradise!"
:2c:Romans8;20
Quote from: sheila on July 24, 2018, 10:37:47 PM
:2c:Romans8;20
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope".
The way I see that is me creating the robot and its surroundings. The robot still has a 'free will' (within the limits of its 'brain' which I gave it (100Gb in this case!) and within the confines of it's 'habitat') etc.
Why would I let the robot have complete control over everything with it's limited knowledge? I wouldn't.
I believe we have a free will in much the same way as this. IE ... God sets the 'barriers' and leaves us to it.
Why? I've no idea.
If I was God and ruled the universe and had 'need of nothing' (self sustaining blah blah) would I create a robot/human/other life?... Answer...No idea.
Its possible I would start 'creating stuff' though...Fluffy cute things mostly I reckon. Maybe I would make a place like earth to see how my 'robots' coped with a bit of stress... I mean...Look at superman without his superpowers...what a drip! Yeah...a bit of 'character building' never hurt nobody. Noone likes a spoiled person and to allow them to appreciate the 'light' i'd have to give them a little 'darkness'. I know they wouldn't enjoy it (at the time) but they would realize one day I had their best interests at heart...
Yeah...Imagine creating 'someone' and everything in their life is perfect...You watch them from the 'heavens' and they are just in a perfect world with perfect weather and everythings perfet...They live on chocolate and don't get fat or ever get a sore stomach... They never suffer in the least and you watch them and they don't even know they are in paradise so can't even appreciate it...They just 'go through the motions' like a dummy.
Nah...We need duality...I know it's not pleasant but there you go...It's either that or be a robot. Yep we have free will I reckon.
...And Marc became lost in thought and talked aimlessly for many hours... :dsunny:
All I see mostly here is human reasoning, and not Scriptures to witness to God's truth. That's all I'll say for now.
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Colossians 2
8See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 24, 2018, 11:57:27 PM
All I see mostly here is human reasoning, and not Scriptures to witness to God's truth. That's all I'll say for now.
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Colossians 2
8See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ
Very interesting. :LH:
And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible..
Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you. :declare:
...But I don't.
[etc....mod edit]
marc, as far as the purpose, intent, and posting expectations at TM your post does not meet expectations. If you have serious questions or uncertainties, that's an area for discussion. However, please review the posting guidelines, particularly '
expectations regarding scriptures', as well as "not a debate site", and feel free to give it one more shot. Please keep in mind the expectations though. Thanks.
Ok. It's not my site and I won't get into it.
BUT, ML, I'm a little disheartened by all of your subtle jabs at others' posts. I've seen it a few times. It comes across as rather condescending.
Many veterans on this site engage in discussions because like it or not the Bible is somewhat unclear about some things and God gave us human reason so it's ok to use it and engage in discussions with one another. I did use scripture (who can resist his will), Sheila did as well.
I like "new blood" on here and it seems people get shut down rather quickly. It makes for quite the circular topics, with the same old posts.
OK, Sorry about that then.
I was actually just referring to Marc, but even then I shouldn't have worded it that way.
I'm learning, so please forgive me
People get "shut down" when they either persistently or blatantly ignore the clearly stated posting guidelines. In reviewing things though, marc could have 1 warning. So his ban will be lifted for now, with a request to review posting guidelines in question, and we'll go from there.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 25, 2018, 02:49:15 AM
OK, Sorry about that then.
I was actually just referring to Marc, but even then I shouldn't have worded it that way.
I'm learning, so please forgive me
Totally forgiven. And I apologize if I came across as harsh, I had a bad day, actually bad couple of weeks. Hint hint free will constrained by a carnal mind wallowing in the cares of the world. Ha
And yeah I do see where Marc didn't site anything other than his own ideas. I was hoping for a good discussion but I see he got rather controversial pretty quickly. Not sure the extend of what he said and not sure why he got so heated so quickly.
Anyway u are a welcome edition as the "new blood" I was referring to and am glad u are sticking around here.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 12:39:40 AM
Very interesting. :LH:
And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible.. [mod edit]
Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'! ... The worst kind of men... [mod edit] Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol! :dontknow:
[mod edit]
'Human reasoning' lol! That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you. :declare:
...But I don't.
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.
I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?
[mod edit]
I'm just here looking for truth.
...Ain't finding much. :doh:
Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...
[[mod edit]
What I'm getting at is that... Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.
Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?
Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest. And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.
[mod edit]
Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that. I don't care what a book says!
To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about.... I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime
I look forward to debates in future!
Hi Marc,
I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth. You will eventually come to know it.
Are you into statistics?
The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random. Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin. Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone. The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.
The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.
You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations.
There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple. Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.
Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events. So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 05:07:24 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 25, 2018, 02:49:15 AM
OK, Sorry about that then.
I was actually just referring to Marc, but even then I shouldn't have worded it that way.
I'm learning, so please forgive me
Totally forgiven. And I apologize if I came across as harsh, I had a bad day, actually bad couple of weeks. Hint hint free will constrained by a carnal mind wallowing in the cares of the world. Ha
And yeah I do see where Marc didn't site anything other than his own ideas. I was hoping for a good discussion but I see he got rather controversial pretty quickly. Not sure the extend of what he said and not sure why he got so heated so quickly.
Anyway u are a welcome edition as the "new blood" I was referring to and am glad u are sticking around here.
:friendstu:
In regards to your worries, cast it all on Him. He dwells with us and in us, and swept among us in the flesh. God knows what to do.
Philippians 4
4Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice;
5let your forbearance be known to all men; the Lord [is] near;
6for nothing be anxious, but in everything by prayer, and by supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God;
7and the peace of God, that is surpassing all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.
8As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many as [are] grave, as many as [are] righteous, as many as [are] pure, as many as [are] lovely, as many as [are] of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon
On a lighter note, more of a double edged sword, but...
Maybe it was good I said that? In a weird sort of way? If I would have not been lead to post, who knows how much more trouble could have come out.
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 05:19:49 AM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 12:39:40 AM
Very interesting. :LH:
And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible.. [mod edit]
Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'! ... The worst kind of men... [mod edit] Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol! :dontknow:
[mod edit]
'Human reasoning' lol! That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you. :declare:
...But I don't.
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.
I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?
[mod edit]
I'm just here looking for truth.
...Ain't finding much. :doh:
Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...
[[mod edit]
What I'm getting at is that... Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.
Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?
Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest. And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.
[mod edit]
Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that. I don't care what a book says!
To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about.... I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime
I look forward to debates in future!
Hi Marc,
I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth. You will eventually come to know it.
Are you into statistics?
The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random. Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin. Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone. The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.
The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.
You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations.
There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple. Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.
Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events. So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.
Hi thank you.
I have no way of knowing if that really happened or not as I wasn't there etc but I've had similar things happen to me in prayers so I'm certainly open to believing it and it is actually because of experiences (similar to this) why I'm 'searching' at the moment in the first place.
Someone...or 'something' has answered many of my prayers in my life.
I don't even know why I came here? - I mean 'God' seems to answer me anyway...What do I care what a book says?
I'm quite ill at the moment. I might not have a great deal of time. I feel as though I'm looking for the one who answered my prayers so I can thank Him in some way...I don't know...
I don't even know anymore.
I don't even really care anymore lol.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 25, 2018, 05:32:40 AM
On a lighter note, more of a double edged sword, but...
Maybe it was good I said that? In a weird sort of way? If I would have not been lead to post, who knows how much more trouble could have come out.
Totally. It's often like that, God knows the outcome and can see the end result.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 25, 2018, 05:30:02 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 05:07:24 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 25, 2018, 02:49:15 AM
OK, Sorry about that then.
I was actually just referring to Marc, but even then I shouldn't have worded it that way.
I'm learning, so please forgive me
Totally forgiven. And I apologize if I came across as harsh, I had a bad day, actually bad couple of weeks. Hint hint free will constrained by a carnal mind wallowing in the cares of the world. Ha
And yeah I do see where Marc didn't site anything other than his own ideas. I was hoping for a good discussion but I see he got rather controversial pretty quickly. Not sure the extend of what he said and not sure why he got so heated so quickly.
Anyway u are a welcome edition as the "new blood" I was referring to and am glad u are sticking around here.
:friendstu:
In regards to your worries, cast it all on Him. He dwells with us and in us, and swept among us in the flesh. God knows what to do.
Philippians 4
4Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice;
5let your forbearance be known to all men; the Lord [is] near;
6for nothing be anxious, but in everything by prayer, and by supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God;
7and the peace of God, that is surpassing all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.
8As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many as [are] grave, as many as [are] righteous, as many as [are] pure, as many as [are] lovely, as many as [are] of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon
Awesome passage. I call out to him daily saying I know I don't have the answers and asking him to guide me and deliver me from anxiety. He does, eventually, but in his time and not immediately like I'd like, so there must be some sort of learning process going on for me that he is teaching me about. I tend to not know if something is from me, from others or from God when I am asking for guidance on grey area choices I have to make. Mostly parenting choices or interpersonal choices. I know Love is the highest thing and to do things out of love but sometimes given several options I can't see which one is that path. Life is complicated!
To bring it all back to free will, I'd sometimes rather not have it! I struggle making decisions, and know I don't know what the heck to do, so it seems like a curse and not a blessing sometime to have "thinking ability" like Marie Glen likes to call it.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 05:19:49 AM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 12:39:40 AM
Very interesting. :LH:
And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible.. [mod edit]
Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'! ... The worst kind of men... [mod edit] Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol! :dontknow:
[mod edit]
'Human reasoning' lol! That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you. :declare:
...But I don't.
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.
I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?
[mod edit]
I'm just here looking for truth.
...Ain't finding much. :doh:
Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...
[[mod edit]
What I'm getting at is that... Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.
Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?
Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest. And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.
[mod edit]
Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that. I don't care what a book says!
To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about.... I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime
I look forward to debates in future!
Hi Marc,
I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth. You will eventually come to know it.
Are you into statistics?
The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random. Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin. Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone. The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.
The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.
You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations.
There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple. Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.
Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events. So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.
Hi thank you.
I have no way of knowing if that really happened or not as I wasn't there etc but I've had similar things happen to me in prayers so I'm certainly open to believing it and it is actually because of experiences (similar to this) why I'm 'searching' at the moment in the first place.
Someone...or 'something' has answered many of my prayers in my life.
I don't even know why I came here? - I mean 'God' seems to answer me anyway...What do I care what a book says?
I'm quite ill at the moment. I might not have a great deal of time. I feel as though I'm looking for the one who answered my prayers so I can thank Him in some way...I don't know...
I don't even know anymore.
I don't even really care anymore lol.
You can thank him!
I'm sorry for your health issues and I'll pray for you.
I think u are on the right track.
JESUS is the word of God.
Jesus said he'd send "the comforter" to us after he died.
This means we now have access to God's spirit directly and we can pray and have a connection with God individually.
I don't always get answers right away but like you I do get them from time to time and I feel God.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Hi Marc,
You have to think Spiritually. For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament. Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one. He is also taking life for life. He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.
It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.
hope that helps...
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 05:19:49 AM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 12:39:40 AM
Very interesting. :LH:
And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible.. [mod edit]
Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'! ... The worst kind of men... [mod edit] Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol! :dontknow:
[mod edit]
'Human reasoning' lol! That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you. :declare:
...But I don't.
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.
I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?
[mod edit]
I'm just here looking for truth.
...Ain't finding much. :doh:
Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...
[[mod edit]
What I'm getting at is that... Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.
Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?
Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest. And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.
[mod edit]
Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that. I don't care what a book says!
To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about.... I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime
I look forward to debates in future!
Hi Marc,
I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth. You will eventually come to know it.
Are you into statistics?
The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random. Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin. Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone. The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.
The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.
You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations.
There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple. Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.
Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events. So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.
Hi thank you.
I have no way of knowing if that really happened or not as I wasn't there etc but I've had similar things happen to me in prayers so I'm certainly open to believing it and it is actually because of experiences (similar to this) why I'm 'searching' at the moment in the first place.
Someone...or 'something' has answered many of my prayers in my life.
I don't even know why I came here? - I mean 'God' seems to answer me anyway...What do I care what a book says?
I'm quite ill at the moment. I might not have a great deal of time. I feel as though I'm looking for the one who answered my prayers so I can thank Him in some way...I don't know...
I don't even know anymore.
I don't even really care anymore lol.
Actually it is isn't just one book. The authors didn't conspire together. They wrote different books over thousands of years which were put together into a canon (collection of books). There are books outside of the accepted canon that I still consider to be inspired.
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.
Sure I'd like that. Or skype or video chat on appear.in if you like.
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 04:32:40 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Hi Marc,
You have to think Spiritually. For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament. Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one. He is also taking life for life. He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.
It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.
hope that helps...
I get that.
But... bashing babies off rocks?
I'm struggling with that one.
Actually it is isn't just one book. The authors didn't conspire together. They wrote different books over thousands of years which were put together into a canon (collection of books). There are books outside of the accepted canon that I still consider to be inspired.
[/quote]
I know that, sorry I was just being 'simplistic' there lol (overly).
I've been reading some of the other 'gospels'...
...I duno what I make of it all. I know there is truth there.
I probably wouldn't have had my 'miracles' (I don't like having to use that word sorry but it's the only word that fits...God forbid (and I'm not trying to sound 'Pauline') (I hate it when people do) that anyone would think I did anything 'worthy' of them). But the fact is I wouldn't be here right now If I hadn't had (cough) 'miracles' happen to me in the first place. But to have had those 'miracles' I think it's because I got to know 'God' through Jesus in the bible in the first place. I don't know for sure yet... I just prayed with as much love and sincerity I had...
..It's very confusing to me.
I feel drawn to UR believers...But probably only because you have a 'better idea of God' than the 'others'. But I still feel like... There's something missing. It's like...I come on tentmaker and it's all 'UR this and UR that'...But theres more to it than just God saving everyone...That's a given...But there is so much more...
I know that you know that too...
I don't know what I'm trying to say really.
I just want to love...I'm not bothered if 'someone paid my fine' for me (Jesus) (I don't like the idea of that)...If I do somthing wrong I dont want someone taking my punishment for me. I don't want a 'pat on the back' from God for being 'nice' or whatever. (What I should be doing anyway)... I just want to love freely and in peace. I want to see death abolished and for the 'thing' that separates us all (ego) to be subdued.
I want to go to Jesus...to have faith and hope in him but then I read his dads been ordering babies to be bashed off of rocks...
...You see the dilemma?
Sorry for pouring out my heart and possibly sounding a bit soppy but if I can't do it here where can I do it?
Despite all of this...I still function as a person. I'm still 'happy'. I don't want anyone to think I'm some depressed, anxious misery guts...Quite the opposite in fact. I'm on a 'slow train' where all this stuff is concerned...I'm in no rush to find answers and I'm not fearful. I love a lot and that love gets me through...that's my 'rock'...I'll always have that. I always have the choice to love. Love is God isn't It?
All this stuff is just sort of 'icing' on the cake for me.... If it all goes pear shaped I can go back to my 'normal life'. But I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there was truth in the bible and something there for me.
Maybe God hides it (answers) from me? Maybe I'm not saved? Maybe I'm the least of God's people? Maybe I'm not even one of His!
I don't know. I suppose it's the human condition to keep looking for 'something'. All I know is that I pray to God everyday and have prayed to Him all my life. I believe He is love and...He 'helps' me...
Does God need a 'middleman?' I mean...this is God we're talking about...
Psalm 146 "Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance".
My faith is in God (God being 'love'). BUT...Without having read about Jesus in the bible I don't think I'd have a clue what real love was...Or maybe I would?....I don't know!
The other thing that brought me here is that my own grandad saw Jesus before he died...He wasn't religious or anything! So why Jesus!?
Anyway, I have many questions but never think I dislike anyone on here or am after an argument because it's just not true. People are people.
From now on I will watch where I post my questions and be more cautious as I don't want to be banned. I don't want to cause offence and I don't want anyone questioning their faith because of anything I've said or done either.
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.
No one has ever said honest questions or struggles can't be discussed here. What's been said is, that the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed can be trusted and is the default setting at TM. NOT scripture bashing, saying they aren't true, they're not to be trusted, etc. Honest questions, searching deeper things, can be done. 1) bashing, trashing, "not true", "just man-made", vs. 2) "i'm struggling to understand this", "I believe the scriptures but my mind just can't reconcile x,y,z"...
One is honest, human struggle, that could be of benefit to the one and others looking on - the other, a lie that is not helpful to anyone, especially perhaps those weak in the faith.
On the other hand, if someone/anyone truly just doesn't believe the scriptures and want to have a platform to either refute them or even subtly (and even perhaps even unknowingly) spread doubt and unbelief, then a different venue to share/spread that particular viewpoint
is probably best.
Quote from: jabcat on July 25, 2018, 05:33:58 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.
No one has ever said honest questions or struggles can't be discussed here. What's been said is, that the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed can be trusted and is the default setting at TM. NOT scripture bashing, saying they aren't true, they're not to be trusted, etc. Honest questions, searching deeper things, can be done. 1) bashing, trashing, "not true", "just man-made", vs. 2) "i'm struggling to understand this", "I believe the scriptures but my mind just can't reconcile x,y,z"...
One is honest, human struggle, that could be of benefit to the one and others looking on - the other, a lie that is not helpful to anyone, especially perhaps those weak in the faith.
On the other hand, if someone/anyone truly just doesn't believe the scriptures and want to have a platform to either refute them or even subtly (and even perhaps even unknowingly) spread doubt and unbelief, then a different venue to share/spread that particular viewpoint is probably best.
I'm sorry.
It's me that has come here...Tentmaker didn't come to me so I should have respected the 'house rules'.
I didn't realize I did that.
It won't happen again and thanks for letting me remain...It says a lot that. Thanks. :HeartThrob:
Thanks marc. Good wishes. :dsunny:
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 04:47:51 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 04:32:40 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Hi Marc,
You have to think Spiritually. For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament. Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one. He is also taking life for life. He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.
It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.
hope that helps...
I get that.
But... bashing babies off rocks?
I'm struggling with that one.
You referring to this, correct?:
Psa 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.
The Rock is singular - not plural. The Rock is Jesus Christ.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 05:05:38 PM
I know that, sorry I was just being 'simplistic' there lol (overly).
I've been reading some of the other 'gospels'...
...I duno what I make of it all. I know there is truth there.
I probably wouldn't have had my 'miracles' (I don't like having to use that word sorry but it's the only word that fits...God forbid (and I'm not trying to sound 'Pauline') (I hate it when people do) that anyone would think I did anything 'worthy' of them). But the fact is I wouldn't be here right now If I hadn't had (cough) 'miracles' happen to me in the first place. But to have had those 'miracles' I think it's because I got to know 'God' through Jesus in the bible in the first place. I don't know for sure yet... I just prayed with as much love and sincerity I had...
..It's very confusing to me.
I feel drawn to UR believers...But probably only because you have a 'better idea of God' than the 'others'. But I still feel like... There's something missing. It's like...I come on tentmaker and it's all 'UR this and UR that'...But theres more to it than just God saving everyone...That's a given...But there is so much more...
I know that you know that too...
I don't know what I'm trying to say really.
I just want to love...I'm not bothered if 'someone paid my fine' for me (Jesus) (I don't like the idea of that)...If I do somthing wrong I dont want someone taking my punishment for me. I don't want a 'pat on the back' from God for being 'nice' or whatever. (What I should be doing anyway)... I just want to love freely and in peace. I want to see death abolished and for the 'thing' that separates us all (ego) to be subdued.
I want to go to Jesus...to have faith and hope in him but then I read his dads been ordering babies to be bashed off of rocks...
...You see the dilemma?
Sorry for pouring out my heart and possibly sounding a bit soppy but if I can't do it here where can I do it?
Despite all of this...I still function as a person. I'm still 'happy'. I don't want anyone to think I'm some depressed, anxious misery guts...Quite the opposite in fact. I'm on a 'slow train' where all this stuff is concerned...I'm in no rush to find answers and I'm not fearful. I love a lot and that love gets me through...that's my 'rock'...I'll always have that. I always have the choice to love. Love is God isn't It?
All this stuff is just sort of 'icing' on the cake for me.... If it all goes pear shaped I can go back to my 'normal life'. But I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there was truth in the bible and something there for me.
Maybe God hides it (answers) from me? Maybe I'm not saved? Maybe I'm the least of God's people? Maybe I'm not even one of His!
I don't know. I suppose it's the human condition to keep looking for 'something'. All I know is that I pray to God everyday and have prayed to Him all my life. I believe He is love and...He 'helps' me...
Does God need a 'middleman?' I mean...this is God we're talking about...
Psalm 146 "Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance".
My faith is in God (God being 'love'). BUT...Without having read about Jesus in the bible I don't think I'd have a clue what real love was...Or maybe I would?....I don't know!
The other thing that brought me here is that my own grandad saw Jesus before he died...He wasn't religious or anything! So why Jesus!?
Anyway, I have many questions but never think I dislike anyone on here or am after an argument because it's just not true. People are people.
From now on I will watch where I post my questions and be more cautious as I don't want to be banned. I don't want to cause offence and I don't want anyone questioning their faith because of anything I've said or done either.
Hi Marc,
God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned. This was all planned by God even for man to sin. Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also. So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God. Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust. Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.
So we need Christ. Christ is Good. God creates the Evil and the Righteousness. He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible. And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.
God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 07:26:18 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 04:47:51 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 04:32:40 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Hi Marc,
You have to think Spiritually. For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament. Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one. He is also taking life for life. He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.
It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.
hope that helps...
I get that.
But... bashing babies off rocks?
I'm struggling with that one.
You referring to this, correct?:
Psa 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.
The Rock is singular - not plural. The Rock is Jesus Christ.
How can that be? I thought Peter was the rock anyway?
[/quote]
Hi Marc,
God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned. This was all planned by God even for man to sin. Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also. So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God. Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust. Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.
So we need Christ. Christ is Good. God creates the Evil and the Righteousness. He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible. And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.
God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.
[/quote]
Interesting post. I understood it but...
This is where I am...in all honesty...
I realise I'm not perfect. I 'can't' be perfect. ... I admit I would need a 'savior'. This is the 'draw' of 'christianity' (compared to other religions isn't it?). (We realize we fail to be perfect).
And then...I can't go no further than that.
Maybe one day I will. I don't know.
I believe that 'whatever' ... God is in control and doing what's best.
I might not (or never be) ready for it. Maybe God has to keep me the way?
I don't even know what I'd do if I was 'saved' I'm not sure what that means. Help people? Ha! That's easier said than done... Convert people? Ha!
Another thing that puzzles me...Jesus wasn't the first human to be raised from death according to the bible so... .... I don't 'get it' that's all.
I really appreciate your responses. I will seek answers to my questions, thank you for being helpful.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 07:26:18 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 04:47:51 PM
Quote from: trettep on July 25, 2018, 04:32:40 PM
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Ok.
Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one. One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!
I'll look for answers elsewhere.
Thanks.
Hi Marc,
You have to think Spiritually. For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament. Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one. He is also taking life for life. He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.
It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.
hope that helps...
I get that.
But... bashing babies off rocks?
I'm struggling with that one.
You referring to this, correct?:
Psa 137:9 Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.
The Rock is singular - not plural. The Rock is Jesus Christ.
How can that be? I thought Peter was the rock anyway?
Peter is a stone and those that are true witnesses of Christ are stones. But Christ is the actually famous ROCK.
Quote from: marc555 on July 25, 2018, 08:29:56 PM
Hi Marc,
God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned. This was all planned by God even for man to sin. Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also. So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God. Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust. Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.
So we need Christ. Christ is Good. God creates the Evil and the Righteousness. He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible. And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.
God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.
Quote
Interesting post. I understood it but...
This is where I am...in all honesty...
I realise I'm not perfect. I 'can't' be perfect. ... I admit I would need a 'savior'. This is the 'draw' of 'christianity' (compared to other religions isn't it?). (We realize we fail to be perfect).
And then...I can't go no further than that.
Maybe one day I will. I don't know.
I believe that 'whatever' ... God is in control and doing what's best.
I might not (or never be) ready for it. Maybe God has to keep me the way?
I don't even know what I'd do if I was 'saved' I'm not sure what that means. Help people? Ha! That's easier said than done... Convert people? Ha!
Another thing that puzzles me...Jesus wasn't the first human to be raised from death according to the bible so... .... I don't 'get it' that's all.
I really appreciate your responses. I will seek answers to my questions, thank you for being helpful.
Salvation is really quite simple to understand. It is being unselfish. As long as you are always walking in a spirit of unselfishness and Love for everyone (knowing all shall be saved). Then your walking with the earnest of the Spirit by which you will be saved. We are told 'what reward have we if we only love those who love us'. Therefore, the reward is ESPECIALLY worthy if we are loving those hate us.
Salvation is really quite simple to understand. It is being unselfish. As long as you are always walking in a spirit of unselfishness and Love for everyone (knowing all shall be saved). Then your walking with the earnest of the Spirit by which you will be saved. We are told 'what reward have we if we only love those who love us'. Therefore, the reward is ESPECIALLY worthy if we are loving those hate us.
[/quote]
I hear you and thanks again.
...But everywhere I go someone is giving me a different version of what salvation is, though you in my view have a better knowing...
I've had few...odd moments these last few weeks, mostly when I'm out walking alone in the evenings...Just things 'clicking into place'...Things i'd forgotton.
I'm not sure where I'll end up with all of this, but thank you for helping me.
marc, without offering any personal spin on it, or trying to come up with my own definition/opinion, I will offer this to you, as the scriptures speak for themselves. As you dwell on it (and Him) may it settle into your spirit and become yours;
Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...
John 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 25, 2018, 04:31:32 PM
JESUS is the word of God.
Jesus said he'd send "the comforter" to us after he died.
This means we now have access to God's spirit directly and we can pray and have a connection with God individually.
Amen. Direct access to the throne, through our Intercessor. Also the Spirit prays for us when we don't know how.
I also believe Jesus is the Word. The Word made/become flesh. I also believe there is the written Word, the spoken Word, and the revealed Word. All working together for our benefit and His glory. God's thoughts are also described as the Word/logos. There is a lot there. :thumbsup:
Quote from: marc555 on July 26, 2018, 01:12:57 AM
I've had few...odd moments these last few weeks, mostly when I'm out walking alone in the evenings...Just things 'clicking into place'...Things i'd forgotton.
I'm not sure where I'll end up with all of this, but thank you for helping me.
Learning is not a five minute process- learning is an on-going process with the wisdom coming through experiences.
Seems you are on the bumpy road where the flesh/mind/self is asking questions which only God answers in His manner/style not ours.
You are a child of God thanks to Christ's work.
1 John 3;1,2 " Look what kind of love the Father HAS GIVEN TO US, that We should be called the sons of God,
and so we are.
The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God,
and it has not yet been revealed what we will be.
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM,
BECAUSE WE WILL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS."
1 John 3;5 " And you know that HE APPEARED TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS,
and there is no sin in Him."
Eph 2;4-10 " But GOD,
being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us,
even though we WERE dead in our trespasses,
MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST-
you have been saved by grace-
and raised up WITH HIM in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
TO DEMONSTATE IN THE AGES TO COME THE INCOMPARABLE RICHES OF HIS GRACE in kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
For you have been saved by grace through faith,
AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD;
IT IS NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.
For we are HIS WORK,
CREATED IN CHRIST FOR GOOD WORKS,
WHICH GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE THAT WE SHOULD DO THEM."
Romans 9;11,12 " For even before they were born or had done anything good or bad
so that God's purpose might stand according to election,
NOT because of works, but because of HIS CALL."
Romans 9;19-21 " So you will say to me,
' Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? '
But who are you, a mere mortal, to criticize God?
Certainly the thing that is moulded cannot say to the one who moulded it,
' why have you made me like this? '
Has the potter no right to make of the same lump of clay some pottery for a special occasion
and some other for a common use? "
Romans 9;23 " And what if Her did so in order to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of mercy,
which He prepared beforehand for glory."
Romans 10;3,4 " For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God,
and seeking to establish their own,
they did not submit to God's righteousness.
For Christ is the end of the law so now there is righteousness for everyone who believes."
Romans 11;29 " For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
vs 32 " For God has consigned all to disobedience so that HE MAY SHOW MERCY TO ALL."
vs 36 " For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are ALL things.
To Him be the glory for ALL TIME."
NOTHING can keep us from the love of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is often the case here at the tent, when a discussion gets going it often veers left and right lol.
Looks like this one is no exception, although salvation/how it occurs/is obtained is definitely tied into the free will/all sov topic.
I also believe salvation is God's doing, from giving us His Son, to convicting us of our need for a Savior, to giving us the faith to believe on Him unto salvation. And it's a gift, not of works. I personally believe most are not called and given faith to believe in this lifetime, but that definitely all will bow and confess Jesus is Lord when it's their time - most in the next age. When all is removed between us and God, and all will succumb to His burning love.
That said, a lot of the scriptures Ross posted above brought something else to mind for me. Backing up a little, I believe most if not all of the scriptures in the above post, in their context, is to those who have already been called and given the faith to believe - i.e., believers, children of God (John 1:12). One of the scriptures makes the distinction between "us" [believers, the ecclesia] (Paul speaking) and "the world" (those not yet called and given faith to believe). Related to a few posts in this thread is the issue of KNOWING vs. doubt. In Romans 8 we're told we can know if we're children of God yet or not, because if so, "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".
If this continues longer from here we may split it out to its own topic, so don't worry about hijacking the free will/sov thread. Most things can be fixed. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on July 26, 2018, 05:03:01 AM
I also believe salvation is God's doing, from giving us His Son, to convicting us of our need for a Savior, to giving us the faith to believe on Him unto salvation. And it's a gift, not of works. I personally believe most are not called and given faith to believe in this lifetime, but that definitely all will bow and confess Jesus is Lord when it's their time - most in the next age. When all is removed between us and God, and all will succumb to His burning love.
Pretty much what I was trying to say. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on July 26, 2018, 05:03:01 AM
One of the scriptures makes the distinction between "us" [believers, the ecclesia] (Paul speaking) and "the world" (those not yet called and given faith to believe). Related to a few posts in this thread is the issue of KNOWING vs. doubt. In Romans 8 we're told we can know if we're children of God yet or not, because if so, "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".
Amen! Would seem to be why Paul makes that observation to the Corinthians;
2 Cor 13;5,6 " Examine yourselves to see IF you are of the faith.
Test yourselves.
Or do you not realise about yourselves that Christ is in you?
and I hope you will find out that we do not fail the test."
Hi thank you for the replys.
One of the things that always concerns me about 'religions' is the fact that we are told 'NOT to love the world or ANYTHING in it'... We are also warned about 'leaving the faith' etc etc. It's like...once you're the faith in you're stuck...'Cultish'. It can be very dangerous... You have now trained your mind to see the world as evil and if you ever lose your faith you are now in a bad place indeed with no 'savior' from this evil place.
The 'world' (far as I know) is the only thing we 'really' have... I.E. 'this life' and I for one treasure it.
I don't look around and see 'sinful evil people'. I look around and see mostly people who are lost...who can't tell their 'bum from their elbow'...People who want love but don't know how to get it. I don't hate anyone...I feel sorry for some people and others are just 'spoiled' and never seem to learn anything. ... All to varying degrees.
I hate the current worlds 'system' though...It's pure evil...But hey...From a biblical perspective who put that system there in the first place?
AND according to many of you...Humans have no free will anyway so if we can't choose anything (not even our life) why the blame and why a savior?
I see life as a challenge...An adventure.
Like...Heaven to me sounds impossible because we need 'constantly' reminded of darkness to know light. We need bad to know good etc etc. It's no use showing us 'down' once and then we always appreciate 'up'...No...We need constantly reminded. Also sometimes we need the sun and sometimes the rain...Sometimes 'evil' or 'good' is determined by what we require at that time or how we see things at that time.
If I read a book and there were no 'whodunnits' in it or 'testing of the characters' through 'trials' but everything was just easy and plain-sailing for them I'd be bored to tears...What was the point? What was learned? Ever see Superman 2 when he loses his superpowers and Clark Kent can't handle a little cold and then he get's bullied and feels sorry for himself? - Later he gets the 'superpowers' back and he's 'superman' again! Well... We could all be superheros if our characters were never tested...But the challenge is to be superman (like Christopher Reeves (who played superman)) in real life...When he was made disabled after an accident...He overcame that in many ways...THAT was superman...No superpowers involved...Just him.
So to me life is a great learning experience and adventure...a chance to develop rather than remain in a 'spoiled child' state.
Life to me is also taking responsibility for one's own actions...NOT having someone PAY for the 'wrongs' I did (either deliberate or through ignorance).
Why should Jesus get his face kicked in on account of me? Is that 'justice'?
I guess I see life differently from you folks and I don't think that can be changed...
All this said...As I get older 'earthly' things start to lose their appeal...The health get's worse...One loses interest/excitement in 'certain things'. (Though new hobbies and interests do emerge)... But all this is a learning experience too, though I do think human life (the 'cut-off' age if you like) might be a good idea...Because people do get more bored as time goes on and then are like..."Ok what's next".
So I do look towards 'what's next' and seek more 'spiritual quests' than physical now (as the body weakens). This is just a natural process for many people.
Lastly...The reason I came here is because of certain 'answered prayers' I had...which honestly defied conventional logic.
The other reason is that before my grandad died he said he saw 'Jesus'. My grandad wasn't religious and for him to say that...It really struck a chord with me...ESPECIALLY since we had a telepathic communication a day or so before then (which blew me away!).
NDE's seem to explain a lot more about these events from a scientific standpoint. MILLIONS of reports from around the world, paintings throughout history and ancient stories which match to this day. Verifiable data. In other words 'proof'. The NDE'ers say that life isn't about 'escaping life'! It's about embracing the life which WE chose (before we came here) and making the most of life...Being a LIGHT of love for others. Bringing the love 'with us' (to this realm). I tend to agree with that more...No 'willingly'...(Do I have a free will?) But because that's where the evidence and common sense is. They talk of how 'religion' didn't matter 'on the other side' (even people who were rigid fundamentalists/hell believers etc). They talk 'sense' rather than in riddles which can be interpreted a thousand different ways. Look at David Icke or those people that can make anyone's name say '666' with a bit of 'tomfoolery'...I'm not into all that. A lot of christians write pages of 'stuff' trying to convince themselves of dates and times...But it's just 'stuff'.
I love all this stuff! The mystery! I'm just here trying to find a few answers...Sometimes someone says something that really strikes a 'chord' with me and sometimes not, but I appreciate you all and I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there were lessons to be learned.
Or...If you don't believe in free will the God has brought me here.
For me, a free will is something I do not want, because for me, to have a free will means that I have the capability to wander away
I would rather not wander away from His "WAY"
I would rather not wander away from His "TRUTH"
I would rather not wander away from His "LIFE"
I would rather not wander away from His "RESURRECTION LIFE"
For me, to be free "IS" to be freed from "free will", to be freed from the ability to wander away, but if I do, I need not be afraid, "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil", this world can be a valley of death, and its people a shadow of death, a valley filled with evil (the shadow of death), I know He will guide me back into His will "for thy rod and thy staff they comfort me"
I would rather have Him guide me, than to do it on my own and I would rather have Him guide me than to be guided by men who are doing it on their own.
This is the reason I have been led to this site, for I know "they too" are being guided by His Spirit and everything said here by others is taken into my heart/mind and considered and His Spirit in me agrees with His Spirit in them, for in them I find:
THE LOVE OF GOD --- THE GOD OF LOVE
I still have "free will" in me, but I am guided by His will ....not giving life/power back to the "free will" I have been freed from.
my :2c:
You were guided to camp, so all will be fine :-)
The best work I have see about Free Will is by Augustine of Hippo:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
You will see a lot of support for Universal Salvation in that writing.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2018, 09:51:04 PM
You were guided to camp, so all will be fine :-)
I'm going to shut my trap for a while and listen more. :laugh:
Marc,
I like to read NDEs. And I do believe your grandpa's story, it was really cool to read.
Like I said before I believe in free will constrained by many things, so it isn't totally free.
Quote from: GodIsLove on July 27, 2018, 02:24:47 AM
Marc,
I like to read NDEs. And I do believe your grandpa's story, it was really cool to read.
Like I said before I believe in free will constrained by many things, so it isn't totally free.
Similar then I would say.
I believe in free will too, but If I had total free will...I wouldn't even choose to stay on this planet to be honest. And I'd be able to fly by now lol.
Hi! I was reading through some of this thread backwards, and came to the mention of the verse in psalms about the Babylonian babes bashed against a tree, and I read had the best response here on the tent forum.. that alttho God's Word (written) was "inspired by God" a writer could still write his own sentiments. And how the psalm writer was expressing that line as a war torn, human, sentiment.. And as for me, once I feel a certain 'click' in my heart and mind that something is truth, then for me the matter is understood.. or it just 'feels' like truth, and so i'm happy with that conviction, if based on God's Word that is.
As to the harshness, overall, of the Old Testament, I too had that struggle, but as time went on and I learned other things, this too clicked into lace for me.. that first, thelaw and it's stonings was written for Israel, so as to have a place for the savior of the world to be born into - as opposed to coming into the midst of tree worshippers or something..
But I also realized the harshness of the OT is based on truth. That, in its way, truth is 'harsh'. I've come to think of it as God is both life and perfection. Therefor anything imperfect, is the opposite of life. It simply cannot remain, but all untruth can only crash and burn - as the saying goes. So the stonings, not only kept Israel a bit 'on track' but it demonstrated the truth that ultimately truth is 'brutal' as untruth simply cannot "live".
Not sure I'm expressing it well. To me, God indeed "created evil" but somewhat indirectly by endowing thinking ability (to angel and man) as ultimately created with the ability to think and reason, is the ability to make choices - albeit, as pointed out in this thread, very limited (thank goodness! Or what havoc could be wrought? Obviously things are bad enough already, due to all imperfect choices made since creation, or since rationality was endowed.
A series of learning for me was concluded with a question to me.. why did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought not only occurred but had ripened into outright sedition and revolt? Didn't He know what would happen?
:laughing7: Of course He did! It seems to me like, get this issue of totaLLy learning good from evil (life from death) out of the way.. Or more exact, as a foundation truth all " in heaven and earth" must learn and have written (deeply etched?) upon eveRy heart and mind. The knowing that to wander away from God who is life, simply can never, ever work..All fully knowing it can only ever be self destruction.. if without His intervention.. It just can never work.. Seeing as He is (the only) life itself..
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2018, 04:11:35 PM
Hi! I was reading through some of this thread backwards, and came to the mention of the verse in psalms about the Babylonian babes bashed against a tree, and I read had the best response here on the tent forum.. that alttho God's Word (written) was "inspired by God" a writer could still write his own sentiments. And how the psalm writer was expressing that line as a war torn, human, sentiment.. And as for me, once I feel a certain 'click' in my heart and mind that something is truth, then for me the matter is understood.. or it just 'feels' like truth, and so i'm happy with that conviction, if based on God's Word that is.
As to the harshness, overall, of the Old Testament, I too had that struggle, but as time went on and I learned other things, this too clicked into lace for me.. that first, thelaw and it's stonings was written for Israel, so as to have a place for the savior of the world to be born into - as opposed to coming into the midst of tree worshippers or something..
But I also realized the harshness of the OT is based on truth. That, in its way, truth is 'harsh'. I've come to think of it as God is both life and perfection. Therefor anything imperfect, is the opposite of life. It simply cannot remain, but all untruth can only crash and burn - as the saying goes. So the stonings, not only kept Israel a bit 'on track' but it demonstrated the truth that ultimately truth is 'brutal' as untruth simply cannot "live".
Not sure I'm expressing it well. To me, God indeed "created evil" but somewhat indirectly by endowing thinking ability (to angel and man) as ultimately created with the ability to think and reason, is the ability to make choices - albeit, as pointed out in this thread, very limited (thank goodness! Or what havoc could be wrought? Obviously things are bad enough already, due to all imperfect choices made since creation, or since rationality was endowed.
A series of learning for me was concluded with a question to me.. why did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought not only occurred but had ripened into outright sedition and revolt? Didn't He know what would happen?
:laughing7: Of course He did! It seems to me like, get this issue of totaLLy learning good from evil (life from death) out of the way.. Or more exact, as a foundation truth all " in heaven and earth" must learn and have written (deeply etched?) upon eveRy heart and mind. The knowing that to wander away from God who is life, simply can never, ever work..All fully knowing it can only ever be self destruction.. if without His intervention.. It just can never work.. Seeing as He is (the only) life itself..
Hi there.
I really appreciate your response Marie.
I think a lot of what my 'problem' (with scripture) is that sometimes I find it hard to 'accept' (let God be God)?
...But it's because I can't see love (God) in a lot of those passages.
That said...
There is a website called 'evilbible' which (although it makes some fair ish points) totally blows everything out of proportion and out of context making everything sound worse than it is...and that's not looking for truth...That's just being deluded.
I can only say that I am 'honestly' seeking (or at least I think I am)...I'm certainly being as honest with myself as possible.
Maybe...Just maybe...God did all that 'stuff' in the OT to see the reaction of his 'chosen people' when Jesus arrived! ...Sort of how 'hell' is nowadays.... Like maybe God thought (I'm dramatizing here): "Let's make them think hell is real...I'll leave the odd proper translation around and anyone looking with sincerity will find answers....The ones that know what love is won't believe in hell anyway".
...Something like that maybe?
Maybe God hides things?
Hyperbole, parables...Pearls to swine and all that?
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart".I'm just thinking...
The thing is too...
...I have in the past 'hated' my brother...Hated just about everyone at some time no doubt... Not even righteous hatred at times.
Maybe that's where the difference is with God and me also... Something may sound harsh (in the OT) but for all I know it was for the right reasons...
If I had been alive in those days (or even these days) and a 'prophet' told me to start stoning someone...I couldn't...I just couldn't...UNLESS he was a right nasty one I guess (see I'm changing my mind even as I write this).... I wouldn't take any enjoyment from it though...But then again...I've been reading a lot of historical books recently...Mainly concerning Scots heros like Robert the Bruce and Wallace... And you know what... Sometimes I cheer when the bad guy gets it (like the swine who murdered his wife).
...Wallace storms into his HQ singlehandedly and slays everyone and burns it down and you can't help think "Well done!" (For wrong or right!)
Those times were evil that...I honestly believe that those men were put there by God...I mean...I would never have been born if not for those men...They liberated our entire country. Wallace is said to have had many visions from God. He actually wanted to train as a priest and perhaps even had some training. Even as he was being executed it was declared that he died in peace (by Wallace) because despite the things he did (had to do?) Wallace said God had forgiven him.
I think he was forced to fight back...for himself, his family, his entire country... As I say...I'm thankful to those men for being born.
... I guess It's the old 'don't judge it till you walk a mile in it's shoes' sort of thing.
Again..I'm just thinking a-loud...Trying to find answers.
I'm just trying to say here that maybe God had good reasons to do what was done in the OT...
I too believe that God created evil...And I didn't find that from the bible... Which is surpising in some ways because it seems most of christianity thinks God would 'never do that'!
Evil...BUT...'Not' evil like we know it (as you know)...It's sort of like...(to use the sun and rain analogy)...
...Some people love the rain (farmers) but hate the sun.
Some people hate the rain (me (you would too if you lived in scotland lol)) but love the sun.
...BUT...
...Too much rain and the farmer would start to hate it and too much sun and I'd grow to hate it.
...Yet...Both sun and rain are needed to create a beautiful rainbow...Both working together in unison...Both 'used' for the proper reasons can create beautiful things...
...Sort of like how a spoiled child (all of us at one time no doubt) become (hopefully) wiser, more greatful, etc as life progressed and we 'learned'.
I had a sort of mini revelation the other night when I was out walking (regarding your last point).
It was like...God is the reality... (It's so hard to explain what I learned in words lol)...
...It's like...God isn't saying 'do this' or 'do that' because he has an ego or something...Its 'cos he loves me...It's cos we were made for him like parts of a jigsaw and only find rest in him... It's not a bad thing.
It's sort of like...If you pulled out a knife to attack He would be more concerned about you hurting yourself with the knife than Him being hurt...
I felt a bit ashamed...
...I got the feeling too that I can no more be 'me' than God can be 'God'. As He says 'I am'.
...It was like learning my place in the universe and where things fit...that I'm me and He is God and to let Him be God.
Does ANYTHING i've written make any sense to anyone? Is ANYTHING i'm saying 'biblical'?
I really appreciate you all. :HeartThrob:
Appreciate your thoughts Marc. It looks like God is working in you, so praise God for that!
I apologize for my comment before. Should have worded it differently, so hope you forgive me too.
And, as with all Spiritual things, sometimes words fail to describe them.
Quote from: trettep on July 26, 2018, 11:54:12 PM
The best work I have see about Free Will is by Augustine of Hippo:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
You will see a lot of support for Universal Salvation in that writing.
Wow what a find! Just downloaded it...I'll be reading this later!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on July 28, 2018, 01:08:30 AM
Appreciate your thoughts Marc. It looks like God is working in you, so praise God for that!
I apologize for my comment before. Should have worded it differently, so hope you forgive me too.
And, as with all Spiritual things, sometimes words fail to describe them.
Thank you!
Definitely no need to apologize you didn't do anything wrong!
I've just been reading some of that free will document that trettep posted about Augustine and he said he found words hard to describe some things too...So that's good lol.
Hi Marc! I think your post made a lot of sense and I agree it shows our Father is at work in you.. I especially like the thing about the knife and how His concern is for us..
I watch a few old 'cowboy' shows( hubby's a big fan). And in some of those episodes you really do despise the'badguy'.. Thy're SO bad sometimes.. and so heartless! And I'm sure real life 'bad' characters are just as heartless and worse. Modern wise it seems like lots of folks prefer to coddle the 'bad' guys.. like with revolving door policies with criminals.. let loose, they harm others and the cycle is repeated.
But I like "reap what we sow" and like the prophet Obadiah wrote "your doings will return on your or their own heads" (paraphrasing with bad memory).
Also I don't believe in any sort of after life torment except deep inner horror and regret of evils done.. I do believe each age has its reaping as they sowed, etc., sometimes fiery apocalypse and in the Old Testament I believe the prophets prophesied these.. But pagan belief turned it into afterlife 'hell'.
And even though ppl and nations can be destroyed and brought to ruin, God will resurrect all people (and nations are made up of ppl). [I believe judgement 'day' will be a great 'day' of review of all history.. a traumatic day w/ lots of weeping n gnashing of teeth, and a 'day' to really hammer home this lesson and learning of good from evil.. :2c: ]
Gotta run for now.. ps, I cant help noticing your 555, as my birth date is 5/5/55 and the lord often uses doubles and triples of numbers to ? I'm not sure what.. to confirm something..
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on July 28, 2018, 10:32:14 PM
Hi Marc! I think your post made a lot of sense and I agree it shows our Father is at work in you.. I especially like the thing about the knife and how His concern is for us..
I watch a few old 'cowboy' shows( hubby's a big fan). And in some of those episodes you really do despise the'badguy'.. Thy're SO bad sometimes.. and so heartless! And I'm sure real life 'bad' characters are just as heartless and worse. Modern wise it seems like lots of folks prefer to coddle the 'bad' guys.. like with revolving door policies with criminals.. let loose, they harm others and the cycle is repeated.
But I like "reap what we sow" and like the prophet Obadiah wrote "your doings will return on your or their own heads" (paraphrasing with bad memory).
Also I don't believe in any sort of after life torment except deep inner horror and regret of evils done.. I do believe each age has its reaping as they sowed, etc., sometimes fiery apocalypse and in the Old Testament I believe the prophets prophesied these.. But pagan belief turned it into afterlife 'hell'.
And even though ppl and nations can be destroyed and brought to ruin, God will resurrect all people (and nations are made up of ppl). [I believe judgement 'day' will be a great 'day' of review of all history.. a traumatic day w/ lots of weeping n gnashing of teeth, and a 'day' to really hammer home this lesson and learning of good from evil.. :2c: ]
Gotta run for now.. ps, I cant help noticing your 555, as my birth date is 5/5/55 and the lord often uses doubles and triples of numbers to ? I'm not sure what.. to confirm something..
:Peace2:
From what I know about God I think 'hell' will be feeling ashamed... It doesn't sound 'hellish' to most people (i've even had 'fundamentalists' laugh in my face) but woah...They have no idea...I've felt a little bit of it before and it really does 'burn like hell'...Pure torment...
...When you see yourself for what you are in light of pure love and truth and theres no escape...Doesn't the bible say somewhere its a terrible thing to fall into God's hands...I really believe that...I felt it a little before and to be honest...its probably worse than burning in a real fire...That guilt...So i totally agree with you. I'm just glad God is merciful and forgiving... It's so important to forgive isn't it...You lift a huge weight off of people... It's nice to be forgiven and have your tears wiped away.
Amen, amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:
Quote from: CHB on October 28, 2012, 05:56:49 PM
Here is where I am at on the subject of free will.
First thing, in my dictionary the definition of free will is: The human will regarded as free from restraints, compulsions, etc. ;freedom of CHOICE.
Since God knows everything from beginning to end, then he had to have it all planned out from start to finish. If this is true how can we change a single thing?
Even if we had free will God had to give it to us and therefore it isn't free at all just like he gave us eyes to see our CHOICES that come from him, plus our feelings that enable us to choose our CHOICES.
If God is our creator and he gave us our brain, eyes, mouth, hands, you name it, how can we think that any thing is of ourselves?
The dictionary says, "freedom of choice" but where did our choices come from? God. It says that "the whole heaven and earth is mine". God gave us every choice we choose.
Everytime it seems the scriptures indicate any free will it is always connected to works. Free will is nothing but works without God. With God, Paul said "for it is God who works in us BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure".
This is my personal opinion but if man was given a free will of his own what a mess we would have. I am so thankful to know that it is God who is in control and not me. I am like a sheep who cannot find it's way most of the time. I am a piece of clay what can clay do?
Someone said to me one time, "God doesn't care what color house I like, or what I eat for breakfast". I said, "why do you like a certain color? Why do you like certain foods"? It all starts with God and ends wioth God.
God gave us the brain we have, he gives us color, he provides us with food, it is through the brain that we choose the things we choose and I bet no one can answer as to what makes them choose certain things.
It does say, "choose this day whom you will serve" {works}but then it says no one can come to me except he be dragged. (2Cor. 3:14) says "but their minds were blinded". So, how could they choose? How can this be free will? They were influenced by Satan or God, so, how could their choices be of free will? They only had two choices, God and Satan, they were given a wicked heart and a fleshly mind, they didn't have the Holy Spirit, just WORKS that they couldn't keep.
I could write all day oin this and just touch the surface of it all. The way I see things is, everything comes from God and all will return to God. There is nothing of myself, it is all of him, for him, and to him.
CHB
Amen !
More about free will:
https//:www.bibleanalytics.ca/will.html