God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[Aerex]

This doesnt really explain why God is a proponent of using evil for good which is why I brought the argument as to why so many people have a hard time understanding that God is capable of doing evil. No one has a problem with a father disciplining his child but they do have a problem with how it is done. Logic tells us that if some being tells you to sacrifice your son for me. You dont listen to it.

When God does evil he really does evil on which people began to question God as the Bible says : Why did you make me like this

Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this  because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.

[rosered]

This doesnt really explain why God is a proponent of using evil for good which is why I brought the argument as to why so many people have a hard time understanding that God is capable of doing evil. No one has a problem with a father disciplining his child but they do have a problem with how it is done. Logic tells us that if some being tells you to sacrifice your son for me. You dont listen to it.

When God does evil he really does evil on which people began to question God as the Bible says : Why did you make me like this

Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this  because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.

  Well the first sign of evil  was from a tree in His garden   that God created ....

    There many metaphors    and   spiritual meanings  that can apply  , Like hidden layers of truth .

  Truth is    the literal   meaning does a real poor job of describing God   ...........

[gregoryfl]

I believe it ultimately has to do with growing into the recognition of just who we truly are, and who our Source truly is. We actually can see it all around us in so many ways. Think about the following:

Why do most great stories involve some sort of horrible thing that needs to be overcome?
Why do most of those stories involve characters who go through periods (sometimes for most of the story) of dislike for each other?

The horrible things that occur, and the disliking of those involved in the same storyline, are all the very evils that actually bring about something that otherwise can go unnoticed:

Appreciation
Recognition

Who truly appreciates a cold glass of water, and recognizes its value?

The one who is totally satiated and in an air conditioned room.
The one who has encountered the evil of a harsh desert for a period of time.

The danger to me is not the questioning of God for the evils he brings on his creation, but rather the indifference of a people who do not even acknowledge or appreciate God at all. The one who is questioning God is taking the progressive steps toward truly seeing God.

Job saw this. (Job 42:5)
Asaph saw this. (Psa 73)
Jeremiah saw this. (Lam 3)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:18-23)

Eager expectation kindles awareness and appreciation. It is only through the agency of suffering (vanity, bondage, decay, groaning, travail, pain) that this takes place. Will this satisfy those who wish to find fault with God? Definitely not. Satisfaction will only be experienced in the revealing of the glory within them.

Ronen

[GodIsLove]

 :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  Well said,  Ronen  :thumbsup:     :dsunny:

[Aerex]

I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just believe him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up except some text that was written 2000 years that may have been mistranslated. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious point of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but I don't think God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.

[rosered]

I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just beleive him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious poribt of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.

  Hi Aerex ,
  To simplify     and start from the beginning , we  can see  TWO   trees and Two Laws  in effect   in Gods garden   , a metaphor   for good and evil   mix  and brings life for a time and death in it ]   being this world and the temporary things it holds .
     
  I see only two trees   in the garden   we are told is    one is not to touch  or eat  of this knowledge    of good and evil [Adam and Eve eats of ] exposing the sin  in mankind    being made   of both  Spirit in nature  Gen 1 and   flesh and blood in  nature Gen 2   

This is the warring between the two   natures ...

  The other is the Tree of Life   that remains protected   by Gods design   [Jesus Christ is that  WORD OF LIFE though the Spirit of Life ]
  Adam  being the    spiritual   image of God and Eve was    pulled out of
  representing the    Son of God  and woman [church  or  birthing  and saved though child bearing  of living things ]

Evil  is the result of  sin and death is its reward     , The tree of knowledge of good and evil    found  in     this  Law  of Moses  is the awakening of mankind .

  To the sure death   [It is the BODY OF DEATH ]     that satan contends with and  can only accuse though  this Life and death    LAW  in its members .

That it seems everyone  born of woman goes though      , the frailty of being human    and temporary  and to seek after Spiritual life  in Jesus Christ

  Romans 7 and 8 cover that  real clear  as being alive without the law , till the law comes and puts us to death    and to be delivered from the body of death   though the BODY OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST    ,,,,

We , none had no hope at all till Jesus come in the fulness of time    , just the promise of   His coming     and it was that faith that kept those alive though the process  , being of Abraham's seed        that  all trees have seed after its kind      and nature ..

  It was not until   GOD  made grace a covering  for all to hide  under  His Love  , Being Jesus Christ /WORD OF TRUTH    that any could believe in ... 

Without faith it was impossible to please God   , and it was proven over the course of time that   many  had that lack in them , but history     has proven God kept a few   examples   of  faith exercised  as proof of this TRUTH    by the way they   LIVED   by faith  in GOD
as in Adam all die but as in Christ all shall be made alive , this is Gods working    though mankind  by His Loving ONE OF A KIND SON   , JESUS CHRIST ..
Whom was sent  to save  all that was lost    ,,

  We have a better hope and covenant/promise   now  , than the law of Moses       , the one that satan can and does   produce evil offspring   out of  , being prideful and full of knowledge but no love   , the lack of LOVE proves the fruit produced is corrupt and not fit to eat      ..the mixed seeds are life and death .

Only the Holy Spirit  produces the  PERFECT  FRUIT    IN LOVE  , JESUS COME  in flesh as  a baby  our most perfect and prime example   of How God does this and we are His children and offspring        though the birthing of the sons of God    again by Jesus Christ and His body /   the   true  Church   that is of Heaven and not of this world  , this has no time limit on it  .

The  Seed/CHRIST /WORD OF GOD  are planted in our hearts and we LIVE though Him  , all things are of Him and for Him and though Him   that are Spiritual in nature and eternal by Gods   SPIRIT OF LIFE .

  The Levitical priesthood stops  it is earthly  in nature and could never  please God though its weakness  of flesh and blood ,this knowledge  inherits death    and the Melchizedek  priesthood begins   Spiritual in nature  and this knowledge of  Love, though Jesus Christ   is the bond of perfection and inherits eternal Life ... 

Hebrews  9

  we suffer being flesh and blood and God come to show us that suffering in CHRIST BODY  , eat of my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE IN YOU ,,,spiritual    comes in the natural , but the natural come first   to prove the Spiritual  ...   

Both natures war  within each other  over the body . and whos  Body it belongs to   for  a time , We know Jesus always gets the Victory  over death ...     
HE IS LIFE itself       ..   

[GodIsLove]

Aerex,
I think the appreciating God part will come later for us all, even those of us who have a glimpse of the awesomeness of God in this life really can't truly grasp or appreciate exactly who God truly is and what his plan and the end result truly is.

Also, I see you are fairly young (me too, I'm 32). Most of my friends are atheist or agnostic. I was too for a while. I don't think we can convince anyone to believe. That comes from God. They are learning and will continue to learn on their own path just like we did. Showing love is the most powerful tool to show them God, because God is love. We can't argue or intellectualize with them to make them believe.

Honestly I would probably still be an agnostic if it wasn't for God working within me.

The bible is a strange old collection of writings, let's be honest with ourselves. Only God can "unlock" the bible so we can read it and understand the meaning behind it.

There are so many different religions, how do I know what I believe is right? Because God worked within me and showed me in a way I couldn't deny.

Why don't they believe? It's not time for them to believe.

Patience and trust are hard but that's what we need to do.

In the mean time try to be an example of love and forgiveness. Both are lacking in the world.

[rosered]

 

Wonderfully said , GOD IS LOVE .. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I agree but it is very, very difficult to appreciate a being that you can neither see, touch or hear and then expect to just beleive him despite having no empirical evidence to back it up. I am just trying to understand this from an atheist/non religious poribt of view. I completely get it that God should be appreciated but God is not expecting to us to even appreciate him based in our abilities because be clearly does not want that.

  Hi Aerex ,
  To simplify     and start from the beginning , we  can see  TWO   trees and Two Laws  in effect   in Gods garden   , a metaphor   for good and evil   mix  and brings life for a time and death in it ]   being this world and the temporary things it holds .
     
  I see only two trees   in the garden   we are told is    one is not to touch  or eat  of this knowledge    of good and evil [Adam and Eve eats of ] exposing the sin  in mankind    being made   of both  Spirit in nature  Gen 1 and   flesh and blood in  nature Gen 2   

This is the warring between the two   natures ...

  The other is the Tree of Life   that remains protected   by Gods design   [Jesus Christ is that  WORD OF LIFE though the Spirit of Life ]
  Adam  being the    spiritual   image of God and Eve was    pulled out of
  representing the    Son of God  and woman [church  or  birthing  and saved though child bearing  of living things ]

Evil  is the result of  sin and death is its reward     , The tree of knowledge of good and evil    found  in     this  Law  of Moses  is the awakening of mankind .

  To the sure death   [It is the BODY OF DEATH ]     that satan contends with and  can only accuse though  this Life and death    LAW  in its members .

That it seems everyone  born of woman goes though      , the frailty of being human    and temporary  and to seek after Spiritual life  in Jesus Christ

  Romans 7 and 8 cover that  real clear  as being alive without the law , till the law comes and puts us to death    and to be delivered from the body of death   though the BODY OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST    ,,,,

We , none had no hope at all till Jesus come in the fulness of time    , just the promise of   His coming     and it was that faith that kept those alive though the process  , being of Abraham's seed        that  all trees have seed after its kind      and nature ..

  It was not until   GOD  made grace a covering  for all to hide  under  His Love  , Being Jesus Christ /WORD OF TRUTH    that any could believe in ... 

Without faith it was impossible to please God   , and it was proven over the course of time that   many  had that lack in them , but history     has proven God kept a few   examples   of  faith exercised  as proof of this TRUTH    by the way they   LIVED   by faith  in GOD
as in Adam all die but as in Christ all shall be made alive , this is Gods working    though mankind  by His Loving ONE OF A KIND SON   , JESUS CHRIST ..
Whom was sent  to save  all that was lost    ,,

  We have a better hope and covenant/promise   now  , than the law of Moses       , the one that satan can and does   produce evil offspring   out of  , being prideful and full of knowledge but no love   , the lack of LOVE proves the fruit produced is corrupt and not fit to eat      ..the mixed seeds are life and death .

Only the Holy Spirit  produces the  PERFECT  FRUIT    IN LOVE  , JESUS COME  in flesh as  a baby  our most perfect and prime example   of How God does this and we are His children and offspring        though the birthing of the sons of God    again by Jesus Christ and His body /   the   true  Church   that is of Heaven and not of this world  , this has no time limit on it  .

The  Seed/CHRIST /WORD OF GOD  are planted in our hearts and we LIVE though Him  , all things are of Him and for Him and though Him   that are Spiritual in nature and eternal by Gods   SPIRIT OF LIFE .

  The Levitical priesthood stops  it is earthly  in nature and could never  please God though its weakness  of flesh and blood ,this knowledge  inherits death    and the Melchizedek  priesthood begins   Spiritual in nature  and this knowledge of  Love, though Jesus Christ   is the bond of perfection and inherits eternal Life ... 

Hebrews  9

  we suffer being flesh and blood and God come to show us that suffering in CHRIST BODY  , eat of my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE IN YOU ,,,spiritual    comes in the natural , but the natural come first   to prove the Spiritual  ...   

Both natures war  within each other  over the body . and whos  Body it belongs to   for  a time , We know Jesus always gets the Victory  over death ...     
HE IS LIFE itself       ..

I think that was well said.

[Patinak]

Why don't they believe? It's not time for them to believe.

Patience and trust are hard but that's what we need to do.

In the mean time try to be an example of love and forgiveness. Both are lacking in the world.

TRUTH!

[eaglesway]

 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Interesting terms, futility and slavery to corruption.

My view is that God instituted chaos. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void....."

That is also what a carnal(natural unrenewed person) man is.(a double minded man is unstable in all His ways)


"and the Spirit hovered over the waters...."

This is how God deals with carnality. He hovers over it with His spirit, like a mother hen hovering over her eggs.


"Then God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light. God saw that it was good and separated the light from the darkness"


Once God's word penetrates the chaos there is separation.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, bone and marrow and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.For all things are open to the eyes of Him with which we have to do"

Who's intentions? Certainly not God's intentions, but rather- our intentions, making manifest the secrets of our hearts.

"His face was like the sun shining in its strength and a two-edged sword came out of His mouth and His eyes were like flames of fire"

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in our bodies.

"Their conscience either excusing or accusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ"


That Day has already come for us, if we have heard His word, we are children of the light. God has spoken into the chaos and the light has been separated from the darkness and the form of Christ is arising out of futility and slavery to corruption.

"The outward man is decaying because of sin, the inward man is being renewed because of righteousness"

And the whole creation groans with us as we await that glorious revelation(at the redemption of our bodies)through which we will participate in the restoration of all things.

"For all those whom he foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His son."

"For He brought us forth by the word of truth to be a kind of first fruits of His creatures"

"I count not the suffering of this present time to be worthy to be compared to the glory to be revealed to us."

"That in the ages to come He might reveal the riches of His kindness towards us in Jesus Christ"

"For all things work together for good to them that are the called according to His purpose"

"Many are called but few are chosen"

"But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

"He that overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me on My Father's throne."

"Choose ye this Day whom you shall serve, whether to serve the gods of the nations that surround you or to serve the living God"

"Today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness, "So they saw my works for 40 years therefore I said in my anger- these people always go astray in there hearts, so they shall not enter my rest'"

So God set about separating again, " and every unbelieving member perished in the wilderness"

Wilderness, chaos, futility, slavery to corruption- no what I mean? :o)

Therefore "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end"

Not fall away into hell. Fall in the wilderness before you inherit the promise of being conformed to the image of Christ! Fall into futility!

His Spirit hovered over them in the wilderness and His word(Moses) separated them. His Spirit hovered over them in Israel and His word(the judges) separated them. His Spirit hovered over them in Babylon and His word(the prophets) separated them. His Spirit hovers over us and His word separates the wheat from the chaff, and burns the chaff with unquenchable fire. "Today, if you hear His voice".

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.


God created chaos and set us within in it. Gave us the keys to unleash it upon ourselves, and gave us the keys to be released from it.

But if we dont turn them, we are futile, slaves of corruption, and out of that corruption comes evil, and wickedness, and altho God has forgiven us, until we forgive we cannot be released, and we cannot see forgiveness until we see wickedness as our own- because who needs to be forgiven for that which they did not conceive?

Every man sins when he is drawn away by the lust of his own heart and lust conceives sin and sin conceives death. And death is its own reward.

All this to teach us life, so that we will walk in the Day, so that Light will shine out darkness and and Christ will be formed in us by the Spirit who is hovering over us and the promise of life will grow from the dawn to the fullnoon, from glory to glory- our promised land.

As I see it God does no evil, our own evil brings judgment upon us in the form of corruption, and slavery and chaos and if we become so wicked as to be predators and abusers He may set His own hand upon us- like my daddy did me when I got too far out of line.

But His Spirit still hovers, brooding over the waters, and sooner or later that word will breakthrough- "Let there be Light, and God will see it, and it will be good."

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief(death), in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(old man) will be destroyed with intense heat(light), and the earth(flesh) and its works(sin) will be burned up(like dross).

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God(on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ), because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning(prince of the power of the air), and the elements(principalities and powers) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth(resurrection), in which righteousness dwells(the glorious liberty of the children of God- righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit). 2 pet 3

Better agree quickly with the adversary while you are on your way to the judge, lest the judge deliver you to the bailiff and the bailiff hauls you off to jail. You shall not get out until you pay the last penny.

Ah but then what glorious freedom- the blood of Jesus reconciles all- but not before they give glory to God. :o)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

And in the end, when the chaff is consumed and the dross burned away and every hidden thing brought to light by the light of His face and the sword of His mouth and those flaming eyes- all will, one by one to the last, give glory to God for His grace and the blood of the Lamb and the glory of His unmerited favor and sacrificial love.

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.



:banana:

[GodIsLove]

Eaglesway:

:thumbsup:  :banana: :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this  because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.

I agree.. I think also He knows how many, if not all, at one time or another will shake their very fist at Him.. To habitually harden the heart against Him, I believe, is the unable to be forgiven sin.. unable to be forgiven while they are habitually hardening their heart.. For such, which we really cannot persuade to 'forgive' Him, my attitude (besides love and humility, gentleness) is to think, would they rather not have any rational or reasoning faculties? Such faculties include - sooner or later - the ability to make choices. (Tho highly limited, thank Goodness!)

When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree?) came into being. Was this unexpected? Or did He make a mistake? :rolllol:

I'm thinking He prefers to deal with "chaos" before instituting perfect un-breakable paradise/perfection. Why will it be unbreakable (imo)? Because every one will fully understand and have deeply engraved upon their heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and comprehension of good from evil (life from non-life /death). Once all are sealed upon their heart and forehead, they will fully comprehend that He iS life (and Perfection). And to wander away from full union with Him can only - without His intervention - end in a minute puff of self destruction. Apocalypse/the lesson - the unveiling. (Period. No more chaos.) :2c:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed..

:iagree: :goodpost:       :cloud9:

[NightFlight]

Am I implying that God does wicked. No. But I am saying that people who do not know God think so. I am sure God is perfectly aware of this  because he says that make the wisdom of men into foolishness. I think he knows that we will question him.

I agree.. I think also He knows how many, if not all, at one time or another will shake their very fist at Him.. To habitually harden the heart against Him, I believe, is the unable to be forgiven sin.. unable to be forgiven while they are habitually hardening their heart.. For such, which we really cannot persuade to 'forgive' Him, my attitude (besides love and humility, gentleness) is to think, would they rather not have any rational or reasoning faculties? Such faculties include - sooner or later - the ability to make choices. (Tho highly limited, thank Goodness!)

When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree?) came into being. Was this unexpected? Or did He make a mistake? :rolllol:

I'm thinking He prefers to deal with "chaos" before instituting perfect un-breakable paradise/perfection. Why will it be unbreakable (imo)? Because every one will fully understand and have deeply engraved upon their heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and comprehension of good from evil (life from non-life /death). Once all are sealed upon their heart and forehead, they will fully comprehend that He iS life (and Perfection). And to wander away from full union with Him can only - without His intervention - end in a minute puff of self destruction. Apocalypse/the lesson - the unveiling. (Period. No more chaos.) :2c:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed..

:iagree: :goodpost:       :cloud9:

This is me.  My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God.  I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no.  Not sure why though.

[marie glen]

This is me.  My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God.  I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no.  Not sure why though.

I think the whole thing, ultimately, is psychology.. with many paradoxes... (Jesus on the cross as a strong enough image to, ultimately, pierce every psyche.)

Paradox such as "He hardens whom He will" but also "you will find me when you seek me with all your heart"..

And "God is in full control" (not a scripture verse!) and "choose Ye this day, life or death" (the way of life or the way of death/shadow)

Many paradoxes, where both poles are true!

Because of my own experiences, I strongly believe in changing our habits of thinking.. changing the deeply burned neuron pathways of our own mind.. I went through a time when I would mentally put a big X over every negative thought I found myself thinking, and deliberately replace it with a positive thought. It's amazing how many negative thoughts we can have! (There is creative POWER in our thoughts and words?) Some negatives required an XXX! The PIT would start with the tiniest cloudy, negative thought.. and grow.. til it was like being spiritually beat with a (spiritual) 2 by 4. And every thought was negative, and hurtful. The deep anger at God.. deeper anger at self.. calling self names.. It may differ from person to person, but I think we all have shook our fist at God.. in one way or another.. Eventually I concluded He was big enough, He could take it.. Praise God we come out of that.. But I do believe as others have said here, that He understands our anger (and frustration at life!)

I think it's true it's "all in His timing" but paradoxically, I believe it's true "work out your own salvation with awe and trembling".. That it's hard work on our part. "Be renewed in your mind by the washing of water of the Word of God" - Not sure I got that quite right.. but I believe it means to be earnest and studious and faithful in saturating our mind with His Word. Maybe not the history of the Old Testament wars and God's anger over babe sacrifice, etc..

But the New Covenant Promises of the New Testament.. And the prophets prophesying paradise/perfection. This is the reading schedule I like to use, let's me 'enter the story' more fully - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html 2nd schedule, scheduled in order.. (for instance reading the letters in the order believed written, getting to know the comparison of Paul's travels and his letters; Psalms is always very helpful to me if battling dark thinking. Does every thought have fruit? We can renew our mind via His Word(s) .."the entrance of thy word giveth light".. "a lamp.." in a dark place..

Each negative thought piled atop one another, until a deep dark cloud covers us, smothers us.. I think one of the things we are learning is choice of thought.. "whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, think on these things.." .."seek and you shall find.. knock and keep knocking.." And best of all - "be still.. and know I am God.." .."not in the thunder, not in the howling wind.. but the still small voice.." the Quietness of His Spirit.. His peaceful, loving voice, drifting down like a feather..

The other voice is harsh.. not soft.. not kind.. We are a vessel. Captain of our own ship.. But! even better! "Rest in the Lord" and let Him be captain.. Yield, yield, yield directly to Him.. and when we get to the floor of our being.. it's time to start pulling up floorboards.. and keep yielding.. God will send a good cry and a good laugh.. He is infinitely kind.. Loves YOU deeply.

How do I know that? "His Word is TRUTH" - "God iS love" (all of it every where.. all the love, is Him.) The heart is a noisy, clamorous place..  but we can be still, and know He is God..

[ed]

This is me.  My heart is hard and filled with hate towards God.  I asked Him to help me, to heal me but He said no.  Not sure why though.

Are you asking God to help you not hate Him?

None of us get healed of everything before we die...............we all live with some stuff that we want healed that is not. 

Faith that God does indeed care, even though bad things are happening, for reasons that we don't know, is part of the life we experience.

It seems some of us have decided to praise God anyways.  Others go the other route. 
I hope you find the reason for faith that you seek.  I hope you find that God is with you, even in great distress.  I find that kind of faith.....................I don't know why, other then God has been faithful all of my life.  My experience encourages me to keep faith.  To the last breath, faith will sustain me.  That is built through practice and prayer.  In time, you will prove that faith is worth the effort, no matter the circumstance.  When faith is all that you are left with, it is enough.

[claypot]

 Man's will and God's will. This is claypot and it's been years since I've been on this site and I am glad I am back. You all have a fantastic discussion going on here.

Yes man has a will and yes God has a will. Maybe it's better sad that God is the ultimate will.  It's my personal belief that the bigger guy wins. Our wills are within God's will.

When I say the bigger guy wins I am not talking physically because I am well aware that many times the smaller person can beat a physically bigger person.  I am talking overall bigness. God is infinitely bigger in every way then man. God's will will be done. 

Hey night flight, God's timing my friend!

[Dandelion]

  Well the first sign of evil  was from a tree in His garden   that God created ....

    There many metaphors    and   spiritual meanings  that can apply  , Like hidden layers of truth .

  Truth is    the literal   meaning does a real poor job of describing God   ........... Quote from Rose Red

The tree in the Garden of Eden was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

For there to be good, there must be evil. Good is a relative definition. Something is good, only because in some way, it is different from something evil. There exists an inate comparison.

So, of course, there had to be good and evil. But, until they bit the apple, Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil. They only knew good. There disobedience to God's request, brought them the knowledge of the comparison, and of course, dire consequences.

They had a choice. They could have declined the invitation to bite the apple. Their choice....their free will....brought the falleness of this world. The first of many bites of apples, in a figurative way. But, God was ready with an antidote to their disobedience. It was a long time before God sent His only Son, to change the tide for all of us, but He did it.

As was foretold in the story of Joseph and his multicolored coat, in Genesis 50:

15When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!" 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father charged before he died, saying, 17'Thus you shall say to Joseph, "Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong."' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21"So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

When we mean evil, in the form of sin, God uses it for good. What an amazing God we serve!

And, we see this message again in Romans 8:28:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.


We can make choices that have the ability to bring us closer to God, or further away from Him.

But,God is always ready to use our transgressions for good, when we believe in Him and give Him our lives. 

He wants us to surrender our will to His will.

We are washed in the blood of Jesus, and made righteous.

We will not avoid the pain and sorrow that sin brings, or the consequences, but we will not be judged by what we have done, but by what our God has done, to bring us back to Him.

D.

[Caffus]

Something just hit me as I was reading EWs post.  When God stated, lets make man in our image, most people believe...poof man was in the image of God.  But, what if the making of man like God is a process, and that process involves what we are talking about here...the education of the spirit through the threshing process of the flesh?  And that education is through mans limited will within Gods sovereignty?

That might already be obvious to some but that is a new thought for me.

Yes, I thought about the same thing but only after I became to believe in UR. I believe our will is transformed into the will of God through the things we go through. He forums us  and when we are done we will be made into His image, we also will have hearts of compassion, we also will to have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We will be made into His image, the image of Perfect Love.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Amen! :iagree: :iagree:

[jugghead]

God declared the end at the beginning, He declared man's end at the beginning of His word ..... it was not a revelation to me, but it was to Scherryl (2KnowHim), when she told me of this, it changed my whole viewpoint of Genesis chapter 1.

Through this understanding, "Light" will become all things ..... including us

"Light" to the mind is knowledge, understanding and wisdom
"Light " to the heart is compassion, forgiveness and love
"Light" to the spirit is everything else contained within the "Light" of the mind and heart

[eaglesway]

Let there be Light!

[jugghead]

and "Light" to the soul is LIFE .....

Thank our heavenly Father that He will bring ALL things into the Light/Life (into Christ)