Freewill is a myth and here's proof

[JulieTang84]

 :HeartThrob:

This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.

I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)

Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.

Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.

Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?

If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.

Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.

I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.

God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.

And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!!  :sigh:

So coffee debunks "free will"    :laugh:  Sorry, just had to through that one in.

Lots of Love, Julie  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

I think you have some pretty good points there.
I am still trying to iron all this out in my mind too, as I was brainwashed by the ET equation, freewill+error=hell, for so long. :eek:

The problem with the term "free will" is that different people define it in different ways.  They often argue over words, when they are saying the same things.  That's why that topic opens up a real can of worms around here.  There are as many opinions on this subject as there are rear-ends.  IMO, the real question is this:  Are we allowed to choose between good or evil?, following Christ or following Satan?, believing in God or not?  In other words, do we choose our own destiny, or does God map it out for us, or is it some of both?  If we choose, we are not at all adept at making good choices because we do not have complete wisdom.  God knows that, and it would be cruel for him to let us choose our own destiny (especially if there were an eternal destiny in literal hellfire).  If God maps it all out for us, then we are not much more than robots living out a life of illusion, only thinking we are making choices.   :2c:

[jbertonbounds]

How do you think the term "free-will" differs from "self-will?"

[JulieTang84]

I think you have some pretty good points there.
I am still trying to iron all this out in my mind too, as I was brainwashed by the ET equation, freewill+error=hell, for so long. :eek:

The problem with the term "free will" is that different people define it in different ways.  They often argue over words, when they are saying the same things.  That's why that topic opens up a real can of worms around here.  There are as many opinions on this subject as there are rear-ends.  IMO, the real question is this:  Are we allowed to choose between good or evil?, following Christ or following Satan?, believing in God or not?  In other words, do we choose our own destiny, or does God map it out for us, or is it some of both?  If we choose, we are not at all adept at making good choices because we do not have complete wisdom.  God knows that, and it would be cruel for him to let us choose our own destiny (especially if there were an eternal destiny in literal hellfire).  If God maps it all out for us, then we are not much more than robots living out a life of illusion, only thinking we are making choices.   :2c:

Okay, my understanding is that God knows the Beginning from the End. This does not rule out the possibility of Him knowing exactly what we are going to do, say or think. Leaving us as little robots. I have also read that we are the absolute result of cause and effect. Every action since the beginning in the garden of Eden has lowed down through time. Each causing its own effect. For example, any choice that I have made or will make is a product of some effect in my life past.

This is an interesting concept, but a flawed one I believe. I believe we are yet as babies in spiritual matters and we do the best that we can. I believe God looks down on us with Love while we beat ourselves up in horror of even the simplest thing that we mess us.

Even those who denounce God are clueless, they are living lives in the light of truth they have been given. I do not believe that God or Christ will call (drag) someone, only for them to walk away.

God kept it VERY SIMPLE, just Love, with faith and hope. But to Love him and everyone else first. If Love is our only concern, fear has no home.

Just my thoughts,

Love Julie

[shawn]

I believe in limited will.  I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.

Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.

[ded2daworld]

Mans free will does not override Gods will in salvation or anything at all.
I can choose to go to work tomorrow, but Gods will may be a heart attack tonight.

It's in the bible but I cannot locate this verse, "Man makes his plans, and God laughs"

[jbertonbounds]

I believe in limited will.  I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.

Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

I believe in limited will.  I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.

Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.

Well said!

[CHB]

:HeartThrob:

This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.

I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)

Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.

Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.

Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?

If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.

Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.

I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.

God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.

And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!!  :sigh:

So coffee debunks "free will"    :laugh:  Sorry, just had to through that one in.

Lots of Love, Julie  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Hi Julie,

Thats exactly the way I see the whole thing.  :dsunny:

CHB

[micah7:9]

:HeartThrob:

This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.

I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)

Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.

Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.

Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?

If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.

Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.

I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.

God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.

And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!!  :sigh:

So coffee debunks "free will"    :laugh:  Sorry, just had to through that one in.

Lots of Love, Julie  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Hi Julie,

Thats exactly the way I see the whole thing.  :dsunny:

CHB

Ditto.

[micah7:9]

"I believe in limited will.  I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.

Anything less undermines God's sovereignty." (Shawn)

:iagree:

[Lazarus Short]

"The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."  :declare:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :iagree: And there you have it...""The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."

Man makes many, many, many choices but a choice is made only from a cause that presents the circumstances for choice. Now here is what I believe, Cause comes from the ONE who presents the circumstance for me to make a choice.
I am in the process of being saved/ born from above and I have been given the mind of Christ(as infant as it maybe now) and that mind will be the cause of my choice. If I do not yet know the Savior of the world, then my mind is yet carnal and I again will chose from the cause of my circumstances.
I, cannot have a free will.....I do not will, nor can I will my circumstances to witch I give myself and option. Should or if man has a free(not under the control of some person or some arbitrary power able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independent)
Free will: freedom of decision or choice between alternatives; the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion....
I'm a stubborn rusty nut on this...these religious doctrines offered and taught, that are not found in the Bible but are founded on man's carnal mind and reasoning, they use words like "trinity and free will" words not found in the Bible why they are embraced by the many as sound doctrine is amazing to me. Assumption, speculation, and human understanding are not the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[bj127]

Saw a facebook post this morning stating:  YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT.  EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN.  A comment to this stated:  "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can dramatically alter that plan."
     I wanted to dispute the comment and started searching scripture.  Suddenly a simple sentence came to mind.....God is sovereign...PERIOD. 
     To think that you can alter God's plan or will is to think of yourself as a "Mimi God".  If I'm guilty of anything, it's giving God too much credit.   :laugh: :laugh:

[micah7:9]

Saw a facebook post this morning stating:  YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT.  EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN.  A comment to this stated:  "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can dramatically alter that plan."
     I wanted to dispute the comment and started searching scripture.  Suddenly a simple sentence came to mind.....God is sovereign...PERIOD. 
     To think that you can alter God's plan or will is to think of yourself as a "Mimi God".  If I'm guilty of anything, it's giving God too much credit.   :laugh: :laugh:

Amen. The Lord God started His plan and purpose and HE alone takes FULL responsibility for all of it.

[JulieTang84]

Saw a facebook post this morning stating:  YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT.  EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN.  A comment to this stated:  "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can **** dramatically alter that plan. ****"

* added by me.

I was following along until the part in bold. Nothing can alter the plan, for as far as I am concerned everything is complete NOW. It is only man that knows of Time. God is under no such constraint. He is not older than He was at creation, because if he was he would have changed, and change he does not.

But, are we little robots that wander this Earth with nothing to add? I pray that this is not the case. Yet, if I do an exceedingly gracious act or a horrendous act of evil, taking the lives of many. Who is ultimately responsible. Well of course God is, but is he totally. I say No.

No, because if the gifts of the Spirit are not for us to use to grow in love and in wisdom then I say they are no gift at all. But they are gifts and we CAN feel the change, we CAN see the difference in our lives. What is the definition of a miracle? Something happening without any logical reason or even hope. Yet miracles happen daily. I have certainly had my fair share. Could it not be the tug of a miracle that pulls back in line?

Nothing will change the plan of God. Perhaps we try to change its execution. I see Gods plan like a huge elastic band. We spend our entire life pulling and tugging, trying to hold our own, but invariably at any given moment, that elastic band will pull us back home. It is relentless in its course just as God is in his.

Just my thoughts  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[micah7:9]

"......dramatically alter that plan...."

No I do not believe He will alter His plan, but He can/will prolong or propel, depending on the hearing when one listens.  :2c:

[jbertonbounds]

Remember that Paul often urged the recipients of his letters to remain steadfast.  If they/we were mere robots of God with no will of our own to make choices, there would have been no point in urging them to abstain from sin.  Abstinence requires personal will power and choice.  There are many examples in the Bible stories of people who made the wrong choices by their own will, but still God guided them towards his divine purpose.  Consider Jonah, David, Abraham, and many others who tried to do things their way, but God intervened and got them back on track. :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

John, that resonates with something I read over at ATS, just a few minutes ago.  It was a thread I began, and the link is:  http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread959757/pg#pid16717448

I was fairly convinced of the sovereignty of God, as in "The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."  Then a poster over at ATS argued for God not being responsible for the sins of His people, and brought up the example of them giving child sacrifices thru fire, something He said had never entered His mind.  Folks, that throws the idea of God's Will ordering our lives in every detail into a cocked hat. or it means that free will versus God's will is a mystery we see into only dimly...  I'm keeping an open mind:  does the Bible teach both a rigid outworking of God's Will, and the free will of man?

[micah7:9]

Where does the Bible teach a free will of man?

[Lazarus Short]

Where does the Bible teach a free will of man?

I don't know Micah, that's why I'm asking.  At least, if the Israelites practiced child sacrifice and such a thing had never entered the Mind of God, we should rethink the whole thing.  There is no getting around it - they did the deed OUTSIDE the Will of God, did they not?  :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

[micah7:9]

That is why I asked in How ugly is man?
« on: July 24, 2013, 06:41:06 PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
I wonder sometimes as I'm sure some do as well when we read of the atrocities that the human being can sink to. How can a human being do such horrible things?
Well the Lord God knew from His starting, that the human breathing creature would have what I will call ugly, embedded in his flesh.
We wonder how a human can sink to some lows, but the Creator knew what His creation would be capable of. We know man, without the knowledge of the act, can kill one of his own.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Lev. 19: 11,13,17,20,28,29,31,33,35. Lev. 20:6,9,11,12,13,14,15,17,19,20,21. Lev. 21:9

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[jbertonbounds]

Here's my take on this subject:

Rich kid doesn't appreciate his wealth because he doesn't know what its like to lack anything.  Poor kid appreciates new found wealth greatly because he knows what its like to need things but not have them.  I think of it as the "appreciation concept."  If God let's us make choices, He knows we'll screw up.  When we screw up, we know we need God. God planned his creation from the beginning so that we would be in a position to see our need for his love, grace, and salvation.  By being needy of his love, grace, and salvation, we will someday be able to fully see and appreciate what he has done for us.  We will fully see his love, his power, and his salvation.  Then we will be in the right position to dwell with him, and him among us.  :HeartThrob:

This does not mean that we have "free will," nor does it mean that God controls all of our choices.  But it does help me make sense out of the limited-will scenario, and God's overall plan for humanity and the universe.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I think what we were given was thinking ability, the ability to reason, for which I for on am quite happy about. I don't think it's robots Yahweh is after (is creating). I think with thinking ability sooner or later comes the ability to make chjoices. But alas! Gos is both Life and perfection, so to choose any teeny tiny thing other than He, is to become imperfect the opposite of life, hence a rescue is needed. But what was the other option? no rational creatures ever?

That all said, I believe God is in complete control and the 1st and 2nd resurrections all his choice(s).. a drama/truth drama being worked out, proving good from evil which is also life from death..