:HeartThrob:
This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.
I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)
Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.
Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.
Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?
If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.
Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.
I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.
God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.
And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!! :sigh:
So coffee debunks "free will" :laugh: Sorry, just had to through that one in.
Lots of Love, Julie :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I think you have some pretty good points there.
I am still trying to iron all this out in my mind too, as I was brainwashed by the ET equation, freewill+error=hell, for so long. :eek:
The problem with the term "free will" is that different people define it in different ways. They often argue over words, when they are saying the same things. That's why that topic opens up a real can of worms around here. There are as many opinions on this subject as there are rear-ends. IMO, the real question is this: Are we allowed to choose between good or evil?, following Christ or following Satan?, believing in God or not? In other words, do we choose our own destiny, or does God map it out for us, or is it some of both? If we choose, we are not at all adept at making good choices because we do not have complete wisdom. God knows that, and it would be cruel for him to let us choose our own destiny (especially if there were an eternal destiny in literal hellfire). If God maps it all out for us, then we are not much more than robots living out a life of illusion, only thinking we are making choices. :2c:
How do you think the term "free-will" differs from "self-will?"
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 24, 2013, 10:39:05 PM
I think you have some pretty good points there.
I am still trying to iron all this out in my mind too, as I was brainwashed by the ET equation, freewill+error=hell, for so long. :eek:
The problem with the term "free will" is that different people define it in different ways. They often argue over words, when they are saying the same things. That's why that topic opens up a real can of worms around here. There are as many opinions on this subject as there are rear-ends. IMO, the real question is this: Are we allowed to choose between good or evil?, following Christ or following Satan?, believing in God or not? In other words, do we choose our own destiny, or does God map it out for us, or is it some of both? If we choose, we are not at all adept at making good choices because we do not have complete wisdom. God knows that, and it would be cruel for him to let us choose our own destiny (especially if there were an eternal destiny in literal hellfire). If God maps it all out for us, then we are not much more than robots living out a life of illusion, only thinking we are making choices. :2c:
Okay, my understanding is that God knows the Beginning from the End. This does not rule out the possibility of Him knowing exactly what we are going to do, say or think. Leaving us as little robots. I have also read that we are the absolute result of cause and effect. Every action since the beginning in the garden of Eden has lowed down through time. Each causing its own effect. For example, any choice that I have made or will make is a product of some effect in my life past.
This is an interesting concept, but a flawed one I believe. I believe we are yet as babies in spiritual matters and we do the best that we can. I believe God looks down on us with Love while we beat ourselves up in horror of even the simplest thing that we mess us.
Even those who denounce God are clueless, they are living lives in the light of truth they have been given. I do not believe that God or Christ will call (drag) someone, only for them to walk away.
God kept it VERY SIMPLE, just Love, with faith and hope. But to Love him and everyone else first. If Love is our only concern, fear has no home.
Just my thoughts,
Love Julie
I believe in limited will. I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.
Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.
Mans free will does not override Gods will in salvation or anything at all.
I can choose to go to work tomorrow, but Gods will may be a heart attack tonight.
It's in the bible but I cannot locate this verse, "Man makes his plans, and God laughs"
Quote from: shawn on July 24, 2013, 11:31:37 PM
I believe in limited will. I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.
Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.
:iagree:
Quote from: shawn on July 24, 2013, 11:31:37 PM
I believe in limited will. I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.
Anything less undermines God's sovereignty.
Anything more makes God the perpetrator of my sin.
Well said!
Quote from: JulieTang84 on July 24, 2013, 10:18:54 PM
:HeartThrob:
This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.
I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)
Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.
Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.
Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?
If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.
Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.
I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.
God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.
And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!! :sigh:
So coffee debunks "free will" :laugh: Sorry, just had to through that one in.
Lots of Love, Julie :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Hi Julie,
Thats exactly the way I see the whole thing. :dsunny:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 25, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on July 24, 2013, 10:18:54 PM
:HeartThrob:
This topic always causes so much contention among otherwise sane people.
I think many confuse "freewill" with "free choice." which while sounding similar, are quite different. Even so, "free choice" is likewise a myth. (more on that later)
Compared to the one who has FREEWILL, we can do almost nothing. He "Willed" everything into existence without the aid of ANYTHING!!!!! I can't even "will" a cup of coffee in the morning, even if I have dreamed about all night (that would be a nice dream I think) The simple truth is if I or anyone had "free will," what we wanted would be what we got, INSTANTLY!!!! I would like many things, none of which would make me a better person and even if I wanted that, I cannot simply "will" it. It just doesn't happen.
Even the Law of Attraction, something I am quite open to, is not "free will." The art of attracting something can take some time, well nothing magically has appeared for me. Not even a cup of coffee.Someone made it first.
Now onto Freedom of Choice. Yes, I will concede that we do have a greater scope in this area. I can choose to crawl out of bed and make my coffee, or wait, and pick one up at Starbucks on the way to work. There are a few choices in there and some would say that would have been made freely. But how free is free?
If my choices are truly free, would I not have every conceivable choice possible instantly available? I feel like listening to some music. Instantly my mind goes to what I like or really like, the mood I am in and what I want to listen too. The choice is usually made very quickly. But, only could only choose from the confines of my understanding. There is possibly 100's if not 1000's of recordings out there which I could listen to forever (this is why ignorance is bliss) but I don't know of them and I cannot choose them. My freedom is limited.
Another example. Multiple Choice questions on an exam paper. I am free to choose or not any question. I cannot; however choose to correct one and know that I did. Unfortunately study and time is involved before even an "educated" choice can be made. Seems like nothing is really free after all doesn't it.
I often liken our "free will/choice" as bumper car ride at the fair grounds. We as little cars can pretty much do what we want providing it is in the confines of the enclosed area. We can try to stay out of trouble, doing our best to not hit anyone, but invariably another car will hit you broadside and you didn't even see it happen. Sounds a lot like life I think.
God probably smiles out our complete stupidity when he hears us speak of "Him" giving us FreeWill.
And here is the final proof. Here I have been waiting patiently for my coffee and NOTHING!!!! :sigh:
So coffee debunks "free will" :laugh: Sorry, just had to through that one in.
Lots of Love, Julie :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Hi Julie,
Thats exactly the way I see the whole thing. :dsunny:
CHB
Ditto.
"I believe in limited will. I have described it before but I believe God allows us to make some choices and experience some consequences within a box contained by His will.
Anything less undermines God's sovereignty." (Shawn)
:iagree:
"The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way." :declare:
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :iagree: And there you have it...""The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."
Man makes many, many, many choices but a choice is made only from a cause that presents the circumstances for choice. Now here is what I believe, Cause comes from the ONE who presents the circumstance for me to make a choice.
I am in the process of being saved/ born from above and I have been given the mind of Christ(as infant as it maybe now) and that mind will be the cause of my choice. If I do not yet know the Savior of the world, then my mind is yet carnal and I again will chose from the cause of my circumstances.
I, cannot have a free will.....I do not will, nor can I will my circumstances to witch I give myself and option. Should or if man has a free(not under the control of some person or some arbitrary power able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independent)
Free will: freedom of decision or choice between alternatives; the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion....
I'm a stubborn rusty nut on this...these religious doctrines offered and taught, that are not found in the Bible but are founded on man's carnal mind and reasoning, they use words like "trinity and free will" words not found in the Bible why they are embraced by the many as sound doctrine is amazing to me. Assumption, speculation, and human understanding are not the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Saw a facebook post this morning stating: YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT. EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN. A comment to this stated: "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can dramatically alter that plan."
I wanted to dispute the comment and started searching scripture. Suddenly a simple sentence came to mind.....God is sovereign...PERIOD.
To think that you can alter God's plan or will is to think of yourself as a "Mimi God". If I'm guilty of anything, it's giving God too much credit. :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: bj127 on July 25, 2013, 07:34:54 PM
Saw a facebook post this morning stating: YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT. EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN. A comment to this stated: "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can dramatically alter that plan."
I wanted to dispute the comment and started searching scripture. Suddenly a simple sentence came to mind.....God is sovereign...PERIOD.
To think that you can alter God's plan or will is to think of yourself as a "Mimi God". If I'm guilty of anything, it's giving God too much credit. :laugh: :laugh:
Amen. The Lord God started His plan and purpose and HE alone takes FULL responsibility for all of it.
Quote from: bj127 on July 25, 2013, 07:34:54 PM
Saw a facebook post this morning stating: YOU ARE WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO BE AT THIS VERY MOMENT. EVERY EXPERIENCE IS PART OF HIS DIVINE PLAN. A comment to this stated: "This is not necessarily true. By this statement my choices have no effect on God's plan for my life. God CAN use you anywhere and anyway you are, but often times that means bringing you to a different point and changing you. That is what being delivered and refining is all about. God has a plan for your life, but our choices can **** dramatically alter that plan. ****"
* added by me.
I was following along until the part in bold. Nothing can alter the plan, for as far as I am concerned everything is complete NOW. It is only man that knows of Time. God is under no such constraint. He is not older than He was at creation, because if he was he would have changed, and change he does not.
But, are we little robots that wander this Earth with nothing to add? I pray that this is not the case. Yet, if I do an exceedingly gracious act or a horrendous act of evil, taking the lives of many. Who is ultimately responsible. Well of course God is, but is he totally. I say No.
No, because if the gifts of the Spirit are not for us to use to grow in love and in wisdom then I say they are no gift at all. But they are gifts and we CAN feel the change, we CAN see the difference in our lives. What is the definition of a miracle? Something happening without any logical reason or even hope. Yet miracles happen daily. I have certainly had my fair share. Could it not be the tug of a miracle that pulls back in line?
Nothing will change the plan of God. Perhaps we try to change its execution. I see Gods plan like a huge elastic band. We spend our entire life pulling and tugging, trying to hold our own, but invariably at any given moment, that elastic band will pull us back home. It is relentless in its course just as God is in his.
Just my thoughts :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
"......dramatically alter that plan...."
No I do not believe He will alter His plan, but He can/will prolong or propel, depending on the hearing when one listens. :2c:
Remember that Paul often urged the recipients of his letters to remain steadfast. If they/we were mere robots of God with no will of our own to make choices, there would have been no point in urging them to abstain from sin. Abstinence requires personal will power and choice. There are many examples in the Bible stories of people who made the wrong choices by their own will, but still God guided them towards his divine purpose. Consider Jonah, David, Abraham, and many others who tried to do things their way, but God intervened and got them back on track. :2c:
John, that resonates with something I read over at ATS, just a few minutes ago. It was a thread I began, and the link is: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread959757/pg#pid16717448
I was fairly convinced of the sovereignty of God, as in "The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way." Then a poster over at ATS argued for God not being responsible for the sins of His people, and brought up the example of them giving child sacrifices thru fire, something He said had never entered His mind. Folks, that throws the idea of God's Will ordering our lives in every detail into a cocked hat. or it means that free will versus God's will is a mystery we see into only dimly... I'm keeping an open mind: does the Bible teach both a rigid outworking of God's Will, and the free will of man?
Where does the Bible teach a free will of man?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 26, 2013, 05:43:23 AM
Where does the Bible teach a free will of man?
I don't know Micah, that's why I'm asking. At least, if the Israelites practiced child sacrifice and such a thing had never entered the Mind of God, we should rethink the whole thing. There is no getting around it - they did the deed OUTSIDE the Will of God, did they not? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:
That is why I asked in How ugly is man?
« on: July 24, 2013, 06:41:06 PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
I wonder sometimes as I'm sure some do as well when we read of the atrocities that the human being can sink to. How can a human being do such horrible things?
Well the Lord God knew from His starting, that the human breathing creature would have what I will call ugly, embedded in his flesh.
We wonder how a human can sink to some lows, but the Creator knew what His creation would be capable of. We know man, without the knowledge of the act, can kill one of his own.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Lev. 19: 11,13,17,20,28,29,31,33,35. Lev. 20:6,9,11,12,13,14,15,17,19,20,21. Lev. 21:9
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Here's my take on this subject:
Rich kid doesn't appreciate his wealth because he doesn't know what its like to lack anything. Poor kid appreciates new found wealth greatly because he knows what its like to need things but not have them. I think of it as the "appreciation concept." If God let's us make choices, He knows we'll screw up. When we screw up, we know we need God. God planned his creation from the beginning so that we would be in a position to see our need for his love, grace, and salvation. By being needy of his love, grace, and salvation, we will someday be able to fully see and appreciate what he has done for us. We will fully see his love, his power, and his salvation. Then we will be in the right position to dwell with him, and him among us. :HeartThrob:
This does not mean that we have "free will," nor does it mean that God controls all of our choices. But it does help me make sense out of the limited-will scenario, and God's overall plan for humanity and the universe.
:thumbsup:
I think what we were given was thinking ability, the ability to reason, for which I for on am quite happy about. I don't think it's robots Yahweh is after (is creating). I think with thinking ability sooner or later comes the ability to make chjoices. But alas! Gos is both Life and perfection, so to choose any teeny tiny thing other than He, is to become imperfect the opposite of life, hence a rescue is needed. But what was the other option? no rational creatures ever?
That all said, I believe God is in complete control and the 1st and 2nd resurrections all his choice(s).. a drama/truth drama being worked out, proving good from evil which is also life from death..
I can certainly see arguments for both full God-control will and limited will. As for free will, it's all in how you define the term. It's like somebody said earlier (and Paul said it too), we see in part on this issue, and later we will understand fully. That, too, is part of God's plan. ANYONE who claims they see it all fully and understand it all fully is deceived, one who is "wise and learned."
Again :thumbsup:
I do not believe we free will
But I do believe we have the freedom of choice.
The very nature and essence of Love requires that I have freedom to choose to Love
if I do not have that freedom I am not able to Love freely.
If Gods Love for me is true. True Love, than he must leave me the
choice of accepting or rejecting his Love.
When Man rejects God he is actually rejecting a counterfeit Love.
For no man has or will reject Gods perfect Love
when it is presented to him in its purest form.
I guess I still have a ways to go on learning how to present the good news.
(may be learning less and accepting more).
We have a good start, standing on that foundation of HIS LOVE, is above reproach. I thank the Lord that I do not have "free will" if I should have that attribute, my flesh, itself would deny my Creator. :dsunny:
Amen Brother :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2013, 02:20:12 AM
We have a good start, standing on that foundation of HIS LOVE, is above reproach. I thank the Lord that I do not have "free will" if I should have that attribute, my flesh, itself would deny my Creator. :dsunny:
Good point. :thumbsup:
Quote from: dajomaco on July 27, 2013, 01:53:53 AM
I do not believe we free will
But I do believe we have the freedom of choice.
The very nature and essence of Love requires that I have freedom to choose to Love
if I do not have that freedom I am not able to Love freely.
If Gods Love for me is true. True Love, than he must leave me the
choice of accepting or rejecting his Love.
When Man rejects God he is actually rejecting a counterfeit Love.
For no man has or will reject Gods perfect Love
when it is presented to him in its purest form.
I guess I still have a ways to go on learning how to present the good news.
(may be learning less and accepting more).
Excellent point, but how do
you define "free will?"
Let me explain.
I have heard diverse opinions on whether we have free will, but in the contexts of these many opinions, it seems clear that people are defining the term "free will" in different ways. The main variable that seems apparent is in the degree of "freeness" of ones will.
Anyone would agree that we are not free to flap our arms and fly. But most would agree that we are free to choose between chocolate and vanilla icecream. However, some would disagree, contending the God made that choice for you before the creation. Each of us must decide where we draw these lines in our own definition. That's why, when we state our opinion on free will, we need to first state our own definition of the term "free will" - so that we don't end up arguing over words, when often we are saying the same thing.
I believe our flesh wants what it wants and wars against the Spirit
its not so much'' free will'' as it is an adversary to doing those things that please God :2c:
Quote from: rosered on July 28, 2013, 07:04:34 PM
I believe our flesh wants what it wants and wars against the Spirit
its not so much" free will" as it is an adversary to doing those things that please God :2c:
LIKE
If we get too hung up on specific terminology, the "hot button effect" prevents us from having reasonable discussions on complex subjects. No ones will is free "from God". Yet, God allows everyone a measure of freedom, for the purpose of developing stewardship. Good stewardship, or discipleship, is operating within the freedom God has given, yielding to the grace He supplies, to do the right thing, or- "pick up the cross and follow". The outworking of that is more freedom, because harmony with God's heart and plan and love is the glorious freedom of the children of God. For freedom Christ has set me free................not free FROM GOD, but rather, free WITHIN THE IMMENSITY OF GOD.
If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on July 28, 2013, 06:54:35 PM
Let me explain.
I have heard diverse opinions on whether we have free will, but in the contexts of these many opinions, it seems clear that people are defining the term "free will" in different ways. The main variable that seems apparent is in the degree of "freeness" of ones will.
Anyone would agree that we are not free to flap our arms and fly. But most would agree that we are free to choose between chocolate and vanilla icecream. However, some would disagree, contending the God made that choice for you before the creation. Each of us must decide where we draw these lines in our own definition. That's why, when we state our opinion on free will, we need to first state our own definition of the term "free will" - so that we don't end up arguing over words, when often we are saying the same thing.
\
The words that seem most confusing, are the ones that people assume have the same meaning, but are actually worlds apart.
The counter server comes up to me and asks me would I like a chocolate or vanilla ice-cream cone.
I choose vanilla (I have activated my free will by saying" I would like vanilla please") my choice.
The server comes back and says" sorry we ran out of vanilla".
The more I associate or expect something to happen in the future, because I made a choice.
The more I will be convinced I have free will.
The fact that I can control the future thru the use of my free will.
Is false statement.
Yet it is a scientific fact.
As a matter of fact the whole premise of science is to observe
and then reproduce the exact results.
As a matter of free will in the lab someone can follow a formula and expect
to know exactly what they will have in the future.
I think in the realm of conciseness' and reality the more we are aware of having
no free will
The idea that we are in is will is an easier way to walk by faith.
Of course this is only our opinion.
I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?
The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body. Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched, and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity. Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.
Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin. This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God.
Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil.
It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.
Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.
In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.
In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.
The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.
Peace.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2013, 04:27:46 PM
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Wow. You could start a new thread with those two Romans scriptures. I think most of modern Christendom ignores these verses, because I know that the average christian does not believe this. They explain away verses like these in ways that don't really even make sense. Then they say, "You must not take it out of context." Dude, I always look at the context.
UR makes sense!
Lastpost I read your post
I liked the turn of the phrase the abuse of the ability to choose?
I cut & pasted your post in to (word) and then inserted my opinions that were contrary to yours.
I did not want to post it with out your perimssion.
I did not want so much that You and I have a debate .But I rather prefer a format for the sake of clearity.
Where two ideas pressed up agaist each other, we can see better if they are different branches from the same root.
So choose (what harm could come from it)God might bless you.
Dear dajomaco,
Whatever is in your mind please do if you wish!
what people3 often fail to leave out..when they judge law and condemnation unto others...is this
one little fact. If you have broken one of them..you are guilty of them all.
and if we are no lnger under law..but Grace..then why do you not obey Jesus Christ..and judge not
lest ye be judged?For with the same judgement ye judge ye shall be judged..and in the above case..
it would appear guilt of the unforgiveable sin is in order.
now men like to compare themselves to other men..and say such things as...'I thank you Lord that I am
not like so and so over there" and what do you know,O'man that so and so doesn't beat his breast
and plead for mercy..........seems Jesus Christ preferred the harlots and tax collectors ver self-righteous
Phairesees and offspring of vipers spirits..Pharisees aand sadducees called Him wino and glutton
I'm so glad Jesus is freind to the sinners..and heals afflictions and disease...
ITELL YOU THE TRUTH...THE TAX_COLLECTORS AND PROSTITUTES ARE ENTERING THE KINGDOM
OF GOD AHEAD OF YOU. FOR JOHN CAME TO YOU TO SHOW YOU[HE WHO TAKES AWY ALL THE SINS
OF THE PEOPLE] THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..BUT YOU DID NOT BELEIVE HIM,BUT THE TAX-
COLLECTORS AND THE PROSTITUTES DID.AND EVEN AFTER YOU SAW THIS YOU DID NOT BELEIVE HIM.
these such religious spirit type demons are remnants of babylon religion..and dragon breath dctrines..it is
these very spirits that saay 'Lord,Lord,did we not do thus and thus" It is time the little children
learn to handle such spirits. trample them..if they may perhaps bruise your heel..crush their head.
Dan is a serpent by the wayside..who strikes the heel of the horse,cozing both horse and rider to
fall backward. Dan means judge..Judas was of that tribe and typified the son of perdition..that is not
sealed in Rev 7.
now..this falling backward..let's look into that John 18;4-8 when Jesus said I AM HE they drew bck
and fell to the ground...v 8 I TOLD YOU THAT I AM HE,Jesus answered...'If you are looking for me
then let these men go" this hppened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled..."I have
not lost one of those you gave me" so this offspring oof viper spirit that condemned the sinless Jesus
Christ..through entering Judas[Dan/judge]..must let these men go.[LET MY PEOPLE GO]
The Branch from Jesse Isaaih 11;8 the infant will play near the hole of the cobra,and the young child
put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain..
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord,as the waters cover the sea.
IN THAT DAY THE ROOT OF JESSE WILL STAND AS A BANNER FOR THE PEOPLE'S,THE NATIONS
WILL RALLY TO HIM,AND HIS PLACE OF REST WILL BE GLORIOUS.
nw,we can not saay....brother,let me remove the splinter from your eye..when we have a log[torture
stake of judgement/law] in ours...and the cure for this is to see the serpent on the pole..that yu may
look at it and live.
That was beautifully said Sheila :HeartThrob:
I didn't really understand. Sheila could you elaborate, I am slow and I mean no offence, what you wrote was very good and I see what you said, but I did not get how it went with the post of free will being a myth. :HeartThrob:
I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?
The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. [i](a craving and desire for that which is debased. Is NOT the result of the continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence.
It is our nature .It is intrinsic it is the reality of our flesh and it is our automatic default position). [/i] Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. (You are very accurate in the description of characters with these kind of souls I am such a character with such a Soul.) 174
They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body.
(The first animal desire I had was milk from my Mothers breasts. Jesus was born.)
Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched[i],( yes I agree totally Wretched. TRUE Holiness is the insanity of the flesh and its desire for it.) [/i] and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity.( The flesh does not work with the Spirit .The flesh can not help or in any way support or make The Spirit stronger The flesh can react to the Spirit but the Spirit is not waiting for the flesh to do anything)[/i]made strong Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.
Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin.( [i]I believe that to hold the Idea. That there are people Who miss use the actual holy Spirit or they don't appreciate the Spirit of God the way you do or think they should. Means you got the gift you just haven't opened it yet.
The glorious gift of Knowing Christ and his verdict, that grace for every one every where
was the perfection of LOVE.)[/i] This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God. [i]( We were born into sin. We were born again when Jesus through the Spirit gave us a new birth.) [/i]
Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil. (The mystery of Evil is the recognition of evil has no effect on evil.
Recognizing evil in a fellow brother or sister strengths the evil, the idea that this human being may have going through their head is now seconded by some one else.That they are really evil after all this guy thinks I am evil. )
It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.
Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
((Do not call filthy that which God has declared clean.)
Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.
(We call these entry level qulifacations)
In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.
(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .) [size=10pt]Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.[/size]In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.
The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.
Peace.
Hi Micah....my post was more of a rebuttal to lastposts' 'abuse of choice'...in short...why do such
'choose' to disobey Jesus commands not to judge lest they be judged? and..when we look at our fellowman
with condemnation.guilt and blame[log=condemn as cursed which hangs on a tree]..which is a serpent
on a pole..it is one of the biggest serpents/evil spirits of all..and it is such ones that say they see...
that enter into the kingdom last.
offspring ov viper spirits lay up heavey loads[of accusation,condemnation] impossible for men to bear
they are offended at mercy,grace and forgiveness...they caall the Holy spirit of love and forgiveness
a demon..and want to cast grace out.
they continue to choose to judge,accuse and condemn with all the sins that Jesus Christ redeemed man
from. they insist on counting sins against man..when Jesus said 'He is not counting their sins against them'
they choose what is unlawful....to kill on the sabbath..instead of healing and saving life...
Blind Pharisee's..offspring of vipers...they do the will of their father...a liar and murderer from the
beginning........they lie against God's holy spirit of grace and love and salvation and forgiveness and healing
for man...and say it is not lawful..because the love of God is not in them,nor love for their fellow man
these are the lawless ones[no love in them] that abuse choice..even the will of God to have mercy
on whom He shall have mercy[mankind]
hope this clarifies........ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on July 31, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?
The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. [i](a craving and desire for that which is debased. Is NOT the result of the continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence.
It is our nature .It is intrinsic it is the reality of our flesh and it is our automatic default position). [/i] Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. (You are very accurate in the description of characters with these kind of souls I am such a character with such a Soul.) 174
They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body.
(The first animal desire I had was milk from my Mothers breasts. Jesus was born.)
Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched[i],( yes I agree totally Wretched. TRUE Holiness is the insanity of the flesh and its desire for it.) [/i] and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity.( The flesh does not work with the Spirit .The flesh can not help or in any way support or make The Spirit stronger The flesh can react to the Spirit but the Spirit is not waiting for the flesh to do anything)[/i]made strong Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.
Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin.( [i]I believe that to hold the Idea. That there are people Who miss use the actual holy Spirit or they don't appreciate the Spirit of God the way you do or think they should. Means you got the gift you just haven't opened it yet.
The glorious gift of Knowing Christ and his verdict, that grace for every one every where
was the perfection of LOVE.)[/i] This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God. [i]( We were born into sin. We were born again when Jesus through the Spirit gave us a new birth.) [/i]
Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil. (The mystery of Evil is the recognition of evil has no effect on evil.
Recognizing evil in a fellow brother or sister strengths the evil, the idea that this human being may have going through their head is now seconded by some one else.That they are really evil after all this guy thinks I am evil. )
It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.
Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
((Do not call filthy that which God has declared clean.)
Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.
(We call these entry level qulifacations)
In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.
(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .) [size=10pt]Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.[/size]In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.
The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.
Peace.
Good work :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2013, 05:54:20 PM
Hi Micah....my post was more of a rebuttal to lastposts' 'abuse of choice'...in short...why do such
'choose' to disobey Jesus commands not to judge lest they be judged? and..when we look at our fellowman
with condemnation.guilt and blame[log=condemn as cursed which hangs on a tree]..which is a serpent
on a pole..it is one of the biggest serpents/evil spirits of all..and it is such ones that say they see...
that enter into the kingdom last.
offspring ov viper spirits lay up heavey loads[of accusation,condemnation] impossible for men to bear
they are offended at mercy,grace and forgiveness...they caall the Holy spirit of love and forgiveness
a demon..and want to cast grace out.
they continue to choose to judge,accuse and condemn with all the sins that Jesus Christ redeemed man
from. they insist on counting sins against man..when Jesus said 'He is not counting their sins against them'
they choose what is unlawful....to kill on the sabbath..instead of healing and saving life...
Blind Pharisee's..offspring of vipers...they do the will of their father...a liar and murderer from the
beginning........they lie against God's holy spirit of grace and love and salvation and forgiveness and healing
for man...and say it is not lawful..because the love of God is not in them,nor love for their fellow man
these are the lawless ones[no love in them] that abuse choice..even the will of God to have mercy
on whom He shall have mercy[mankind]
hope this clarifies........ :HeartThrob:
Thanks :HeartThrob:
Thank you Sheila
For some reason when I was reading your post.
I was thinking how different the surface of the ocean is with its waves
and being tossed to and fro .
Yet if you are in the ocean and you just go under the surface the
water it is calm and still.
Reading your post was like allowing my self to be immersed in Grace.
The very surface of Grace is scary .
Grace is such a valuable commodity to some that they think giving it away
is evil and disrespectful.
They feel that Grace should be given to those who deserve it , those who would use it properly.
When grace is freely given it under values the grace they are selling.
They will go to war and kill to protect the value of there grace.
When I say they I mean me and my breed.
and He said 'you received freely..give freely" Jesus was rich in the Grace of God..but He emptied
Himself of it..when He died as a condemned man under the law..that He may freely pour it out on us
that so desperately need it[those condemned under law]...and can have life no other way.
actually the abusers of Grace are those who dare to tell God that he can not show mercy to whom He wants
I am well satisfied that there is enough grace to heal and save all men......for what mn..does not sit
down and first calculate if He is able to finish what He has started? and will God who has started a
good work unto man not finish it?
v 23 nd the parts that we think are less honourable we treat with special honour. And the parts that
are unpresentable we treat with special modesty,while our presentable prts need no special treatment.
But God has combined the members of the body and given greater honour[grace/mercy] to the
parts that lacked . so that there should be no division in the body[salvation of mn] but that it's parts
should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers,every part suffers with it[sin in flesh condemned]
if one part is honoured[shown grace mercy] every part rejoices with it.
Dear dajomaco,
I truly appreciate the time and effort you have taken here. I would like the opportunity to reply.
Quote(a craving and desire for that which is debased. Is NOT the result of the continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence.
It is our nature .It is intrinsic it is the reality of our flesh and it is our automatic default position).
The character I wrote about is not portraying one who wishes to be helped by God but one who opposes God. However, perhaps a present day allegory may help fill in the picture, as it were, but bear in mind in this allegory such people often do want to be helped whereas the one I write of does not desire help but rather seeks to chase after and bury himself deeper in his sins.
A cursory glance at the life story of many possessing a dependency on a particular vice will reveal that the dependency started as perhaps curiosity, peer pressure, environmental circumstances, and so on, and then a stronger and ever stronger dependency on that vice grew.
This does not mean the tendency to sin was not inherent; rather it means the sin itself had planted the seed of that particular vice until finally its roots had spread so deeply that the host was all but choked to death by the increase in sin.
But as stated, this is about one not wishing to escape the vice at all because the vice is indeed all in all to that one.
In the light of the complete context it can be seen that the perpetual choosing of evil and refusing of good breeds consequently an aversion to that which is pure and good, and a craving for that which is debased – in a manner that beforehand was far less strong – it increases, please note.
However, as stated – this character does not wish to escape this growing craving for vice but chooses instead: "The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage."
And he does this using the
freedom of his individual
will no less - freewill, that term that seems to disturb so many and yet something which is part of God's great Scheme in my opinion. Of course, the Lord God of all has set inviolable laws which
cannot be circumvented within which that freedom to choose must operate and abide within - but it is still freewill and, in my opinion, it is very special to God as He desires subjection of His children's wills to His own Will
only by choice.
Quote(The first animal desire I had was milk from my Mothers breasts. Jesus was born.)
Indeed friend, the whole thrust of the text is about one who chooses to become more like an animal rather than seeking the goodness and love of God. One who has abused the laws that God has set into being for the raising up of His children by seeking all that is not of God, anti-God, anti-Christ.
QuoteThe mystery of Evil is the recognition of evil has no effect on evil.
Recognizing evil in a fellow brother or sister strengths the evil, the idea that this human being may have going through their head is now seconded by some one else.That they are really evil after all this guy thinks I am evil.
You are quite welcome to that conception of evil my friend. Personally, the Holy Spirit has shown me the reason why Christ said:
"Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself" (Matthew 12:45).
Please note: "
more wicked than himself" which means that evil spirits have different depths of evil - clearly.
This also explains why there is an "outer darkness" Matthew (8:12). This is not just "darkness" but our Lord emphasised "outer" darkness for some. I believe this "outer (exoteros)" darkness is a place where more evil characters exist because of the deeper filth of their evil - it indicates varying degrees of evil.
I am aware that people assume this to be a metaphorical state and they are welcome to that belief of course, but my own belief is that one "day" they will see it as a reality (and that day may see us reviewing this very discussion).
Quote( We were born into sin. We were born again when Jesus through the Spirit gave us a new birth.)
I was talking about the ability of sin to reproduce itself if not checked.
Indeed, many make the mistake that there is nothing more to do, so Paul warns:
27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway"
27 "I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).
Much traditionalist thought assumes that one is free from the consequences of sin because they have recognised the Love of God through Jesus the Christ as shown through His Life, Death and Resurrection. Fortunately, the Master Christ in His Wisdom declares otherwise:
"...I have
not found thy
works (ergon) perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and
repent. If therefore thou shalt
not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev. 3:2-3).
So Christ was talking about sins and sinning to that group.
<i>(Do not call filthy that which God has declared clean.)</i>
The previous description (prior to this comment) is of a character who has substituted all longings and desires for God, His holiness, goodness and love with vices and has
consciously forced on the
growth of these carnal lusts with an ever-increasing intensity. Thus he has sunk to a position where sin is unpardonable.
Indeed, the point is this: that the sinner relishes the sin so much that the sin is unpardonable because repentance is nonexistent - the sin is truly some "other god". The text is not referring to one who has been washed clean by Christ; this is mentioning the saddest case of all, the one who has become like a brutish fiend and lives to satisfy the animal yearnings that continue in him until all that is left is for his cravings to prey on themselves.
At the point mentioned (where you have inserted your do comment), this represents physical death, and, according to my understanding, the animalistic nature of the soul carries on even though the body of the ever-changing material atoms returns to dust; hence: "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
I interpret our Lord's words: "aionios kolasis" to mean that such a soul passes into an age-lasting correction. For one who commits the unpardonable sin, this will certainly be an age, because God's correctional laws can only work on one who ready to repent, and even once this happens that character is so alienated by his continued descent from all that is pure and holy, that the preparation must be put in before being able to breathe the rarefied purity of those places which no human eye has seen nor of which a human mind has conceived. Until the gross evil is purged from the soul, he cannot abide in such sweet conditions.
Others may interpret this in their preferred way as we each interpret what we consider to be truth according to our experience and how the Holy Spirit has informed us. That is fine, God has His design for the individual soul and that reason will be revealed perhaps not too far in the future.
Quote(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .)
My friend, I am glad that you have this ability. Remember how often the religionists of Christ's day made this error.
I am sorry if this seems strange to you all, I truly am sorry, I do understand how you feel about it and how deeply belief runs. In the Name of the glorious Christ and His own wonderful Gospel!
Peace.
well,as I understand the seven spirits more wicked differently,I shll share. If an evil spirit be caast out
of someone..and the Holy spirit not be there..to keep him/the one born of God..seven/eight more will return
for the house is empty..and the spirit of Christ is not in it. Men who do this can coz worse circumstances
to fall upon a brother...if it is not spirit led..but religion led doctrine of men
Paul dealt with the issue of superfine apostl'es that come with legalistic mosaic/christian gospel.hybrid.
to re-impugn law covenant upon gentile beleivers. He also dealt with gnostics and those who used
the grace of God s a license to sin.. Jude spoke of men also who would feed themselves at the love feast
all these men as types..represent wicked and unclean spirits that have mastered a man,instead of the man
mastering the evil spirit. and yet,it is God's will and Sovereignty that openly shows and displays
and manifests these things..for our education. Also..it is He who chooses who shll draw near to Him in this life
and who shall serve Him as an example of evil..lest any flesh boast.
At this time..Heaven is declaring the salvation of all men. We have been informed that the creature was
subjected to vanity..NOT OF IT'S WILL..but was subjected by God in order to set the whole creation free
into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
the angels,concerned of the tares were told..let them both grow togather until harvest..lest ye uproot
the wheat....so....you don't throw out or pull up a wheat[spiritually growing child] becoz of a tare[sin
in the flesh]
there was wheatfiedl on a hill..waving gently in the breeze,growing straight under the sun. This same
wheatfield looked down on another feild..far below..at the bottom of the hill..for it's crop was scanty
and weeds cropped up[for it was next to the river,and river in it's overflooding had sowed weeds and stunted
the lowly feild]
the sun continued to shine..nd a drought come upon the area. However, the lowly wheatfield received
flodwaters in just the right amount..from a deluge that happened way up river..this continued to
occurr throughout the growing season. AT harvest the wheatfield on the hill yeidled little grain..and look!
the lowly feild,tares nd all had produced more!!
he who is forgiven much,loves much..he who is forgiven little,loves little.
Please forgive me Lastpost but I need to bring something to your attention. :HeartThrob:
QuoteHowever, as stated – this character does not wish to escape this growing craving for vice but chooses instead: "The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage."
And he does this using the freedom of his individual will no less - freewill, that term that seems to disturb so many and yet something which is part of God's great Scheme in my opinion. Of course, the Lord God of all has set inviolable laws which cannot be circumvented within which that freedom to choose must operate and abide within - but it is still freewill and, in my opinion, it is very special to God as He desires subjection of His children's wills to His own Will only by choice.
Please know I mean no disrespect to you and only post this following with Love. :dsunny:
Paul seemed to understand why some just could not see or hear the truth, regardless of how it was presented.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
But is it really their fault? Well Paul gives his take on this too. :HeartThrob:
Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
It would seem that anyone seemgling chosing a life other than one of love towards father, may not have a whole lot of free will/choice at all. This perhaps should not be a huge surprise as Jesus himself spoke of what has been given and what is expected.
Luk 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.......
Clealy Jesus is indicating that some will do things deserving of punishment (I prefer correction) because they not given to know that things were wrong. (Their hearts were hardened and they were not given the ability to act differently) Also worthy of note is that because they did not know (not their fault) the beatings (correction) will be light.
However, Jesus continues......Luk 12:48 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.There is an operative word in the above text. "Given" This denotes a gift, instead of something chosen.
Of course one could point out that "some" might "choose" to ignore the gift. This is a fair question, but logically, is it sound? I do not believe that God is in the habit of giving a wonderful gift of Love, etc to just have it shelved. Likely many here struggled to find the peace and love they now enjoy for many years. I FOR ONE and did not find it until it was given me to find. A gift I wasn't going to turn my back on. I am sure you understand? :HeartThrob:
All of this, everything is part of God's plan.
1Cr 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1Cr 1:28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
1Cr 1:29 so that no one may boast before him.
From the above Scripture I truly believe that the onus is on the ones to whom the gift has been given, to love and mentor with patience and compassion any and all that may still be blind. Blind and deaf to truth, not by choice but by the will of our Father.
I pray that this is taken in the spirit it was given. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 01, 2013, 02:04:02 AM
Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
It would seem that anyone seemgling chosing a life other than one of love towards father, may not have a whole lot of free will/choice at all. This perhaps should not be a huge surprise as Jesus himself spoke of what has been given and what is expected.
Love Julie[/size][/font]
I read the broader context of this scripture, and I agree with you. :thumbsup: It certainly does support an argument against free will. On the other hand, I don't know that it has to be
all or nothing. Let me explain.
IMO, we obviously are given at least limited will. Our will obviously never thwarts God's will. On the other hand, Paul obviously believe in limited will because he urged his churches to remain steadfast, which requires the ability to choose. So then, could it be possible that some are predestined to be called, and some are predestined to be hardened and used in a different way (like Pharaoh, who was referenced farther down in this passage), and then many others
not predestined either way but still having a choice whether to follow the Christ through their limited will? Are
all people who believe unto salvation predestined to do so? Is there scripture that would answer these questions?
(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .)
My friend, I am glad that you have this ability. Remember how often the religionists of Christ's day made this error.
I am sorry if this seems strange to you all, I truly am sorry, I do understand how you feel about it and how deeply belief runs. In the Name of the glorious Christ and His own wonderful Gospel!
Seducing spirits can only seduce you by, appealing to your flesh
the mind of the flesh is there playground.
Your post are centered on how to stay in the play ground and clean it up.
Satan rules the play ground he is the only one who can tell you whether you have cleaned it properly or not. The instructions to keep the play ground clean are Satanic instructions.
When you leave the play ground you enter the reality of the world ,of the Spirit.
Where we live breath and learn everything brand new (has if we were born again.)
The Gospel of Christ is not his own wonderful gospel .
The good news that Jesus has made us free, becomes Glorious by me walking in the freedom of that Gospel .
That Gospel is full of Grace so full of Grace that every time a seducing spirit tries
to add a little law. I recognize for what it is. (anti Christ)
It seems to me your disgust of the children who do not behave.
Well it was so well described I can't but help remembering that voice the way the words are put together. Did seven more join.
The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord
two examples....Pharoah...King of Egypt...and Xerexes King of Persia..negative and positive...
......and I will give you a heart of flesh..and I will write my laws in your heart and mind
QuoteIMO, we obviously are given at least limited will. Our will obviously never thwarts God's will. On the other hand, Paul obviously believe in limited will because he urged his churches to remain steadfast, which requires the ability to choose. So then, could it be possible that some are predestined to be called, and some are predestined to be hardened and used in a different way (like Pharaoh, who was referenced farther down in this passage), and then many others not predestined either way but still having a choice whether to follow the Christ through their limited will? Are all people who believe unto salvation predestined to do so? Is there scripture that would answer these questions?
All wonderful questions :HeartThrob:
I am in no way saying that we are all little robots totally mindless but thinking we are not. :eek:
Maybe we are. :dontknow:
I do believe that the Scriptures I quoted make it impossible to look at anyone with anything but Love as if Father has hardened their hearts, what can they do about it? Am I going to walk by them just like the scribes of old walked past the beaten heathen on the side of the road. This lesson is quite possibly the most important one the children of Father must learn.
Whatever it is that lack in Truth gives an EXACT representation of what we have gained in truth by the measure of our love for them. By the measure of Love for the One by whose grace would be in the exact same shoes.
This above anything else makes me cringe when I hear Christians whom I love speak so flippantly regarding those who a blind through no fault of their own.
As for the "others" I could count my own self as one of them. I do not ever think I was blind to the truth, for I knew what I was hearing was not truth to me. Did I have sight enough to find it in my time, oh heck No!!! But I never stopped searching, wandering around banging into things half in the dark. Never finding what I was looking for, never knowing exactly what it was even.
Then Father began revealing his love to me and the blinders began to fade. I think most of us can relate to this in one form or another.
Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
Thank you.
I believe that people can always find the reflex of their own mind in the Sacred Record if they so wish.
God knows, in my opinion, that the sting of sin is punishment enough and He allows His immutable laws to take care of this, Himself, as LOVE, remaining transcendent.
Still the separatism continues where people audaciously tell other people that the love in their hearts for Christ is but counterfeit and their relationship with God is not real because it does not fit in with their own interpretation of truth.
I believe that in the Father's House there are many, many abiding places where these go until all remnants of elitism and that exclusiveness which creates mischievous dissention and rancour between brother and brother, sister and sister are shed.
In the meanwhile, I believe that those who avoid the elitist theologies but hold a flame for the Love of the Christ of God as revealed through Jesus of Nazareth and His glorious Life and Sacrifice, are increasing in number and their small flames will one day unite into an immense light which will be as a beacon for the angels of God to herald the coming of the Son of God in all His Glory to bless those who await His Presence in reverence.
Peace.
Lastpost said
In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
Lastpost said
Still the separatism continues where people audaciously tell other people that the love in their hearts for Christ is but counterfeit and their relationship with God is not real because it does not fit in with their own interpretation of truth.
Cognitively unaware is the starting point.
The healing of a demon-possessed man.
the went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes[name means a stranger drawing nigh]
when Jesus got out of the boat a man with n evil spirit come from the tombs,and no one could bind
him anymore[even spirit in controlso much that no-one could subdue him].........
night aand day among the tombs he would cry out nd cut himself among the stones.
When he saw Jesus[the evil spirit possessing the man] he ran and fell n his knees..and said....
'What do you want with me,Jesus,Son of the Most High God?, Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
FOR JESUS HAD SID TO THIS MN, 'COME OUT OF HIM YOU EVIL SPIRIT!"
Then Jesus sked him, 'What is your name?
My name is legion ;he replied, for we are many. And he begged Jesus again and again not to send
'them' out of the area
A large herd of pigs waas feeding on the hillside. The de3mons begged Jesus, 'send us among the pigs;
allow us to go into them" He gave them permission and the evil spirits come out and went into the pigs.
the herd,about 2000 in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
GO HOME TO YOUR FAMILY AND TELL THEM HOW MUCH THE LORD HAS DONE FOR YOU......
AND HOW HE HAS HAD MERCY ON YOU.
Now, there are many insights we can gain by this scripture. 1...the way He seperated the evil spirits
from the man....and we would do well to look at things the same way He does....at the end He will again
seperate all evil spirits from possess3ed man..and send off the devil and his angels into the Lake
of fire prepared for them...note they rushed down the steep bank..just as Azazael's goat went down
steep bank
2. He did not look upon the possessed man with anything but mercy and kindness
there are many treasures in this account..for him who seeks the deep things of God..like 2000 being
as 2 days in the tomb..and being raised up from the tomb[man] on the third day.....
Go tell that fox, 'I WILL DRIVE OUT DEMONS Today and tomorrw..and on the third day, I will reach
my goal...
and this......destroy this temple qnd I shall raise it on the third day[lest we forget..man's body is
is God's temple]
...also..in the scriptures of this account..one book says there were two men that come to Jesus..in the
Gadarenes/Gerasenes account..and one recorded one man........'and He will seperate the people
one from another, as a shepherd seperates the sheep from the goats"
So, children of God..look to the example oof Jesus Christ your Lord..the authour and finisher of
your faith. For He shall appear again unto you..seperate from sin
Thank you friends, you bring me so much closer to He who I adore.
And God said, Let us make man in our image (tselem), after our likeness (damuwth) - Gen. 1:26
God is Spirit - John 4:24
God is Love - 1 John 4:8
The Wisdom and Beauty of the Mind of God is unthinkable, that He makes His children as individuals and yet out of Himself of the same Spirit and Love.
The Spirit itself beareth witness (summartureo) with our spirit, that we are the children of God - Rom. 8:16
Summartureo => to bear witness with, bear joint witness
Now, from a personal point of view, even if I should attempt to put into words what happens when the Spirit and my spirit bear witness, it should fall far short of the reality. I do not presume to speak for any other and their own experience. I do not know if this should be a private thing but I put it here anyway to provide some background and reasoning.
When the Spirit touches my spirit more urgently than usual, they unite as one and yet remain separate – I know I exist but in a way that is not earthly because the Spirit is enlivening my spirit. There is a deep, yearning feeling of active love which surges through me to pour out all that I have – gentle and yet unquestionably powerful, like the Gentle Stranger in Person. I feel the power of the Love of the God who is both Love and Spirit enlivening my very spirit, it passes and pulsates through me, there is such urgency in the calling, the Father Spirit is there and yet the message is overwhelmingly JESUS, and this word is not in English but in a language not of the Earth. It seems to want me to literally shout about the JESUS who has been with me for decades, and I feel I am not doing enough. At this point I am granted a glimpse - just a glimpse - of what it means to be a child of God, the physical body is not the body anymore but a spiritual body, it perceives another view of life with a new sense, different than experienced with the physical senses. The over-powering feeling of being lifted up and up and up fills me with ever more joy and gratitude to the Lord God who owns me for the wondrous things He has in store for His children should they keep His saying. And when this happens the Love involved is Sacrificial Love, the child can feel something of the yearning of the Great God, both pain and ecstatic love intermingled. And the message is to get back to the simple Jesus, follow Jesus the Master Himself. At this time words have no meaning, the words of men are swept instantly away from the mind and His Love simply dominates - Love, giving, never ceasing, and requiring only love in return from a simple heart and an obedient will.
I will say that alcohol has never passed my lips for 17 years and I do not take any form of medication that might play with the mind. All this is much too special to jeopardise with anything like that. The experience of the Spirit is not like any earthly experience and one knows it is of God and so very special, so different from any earthly experience.
I am sorry if this does not fall in with others' ideas of how God, Christ and the Holy Spirit should act with the children of God, but the traditional exclusionary theology is unnecessary. As I understand it, the God who is Love is beautiful and loving and never required any assuaging or any other similar notion. God, the Supreme Being, sent His own Christ as Jesus the Man - not only paying the price of coming to a sin-stained world to take upon His shoulders that heavy weight, but also paying the price of being despised and rejected of men and also paying the price of death, so that His Sacrificial Love would draw all men to Himself. Humanity does not need traditions of men forced upon God, which give to a man the inalienable right only of the Supreme Being. Jesus was the only man to have a pure and spotless Spirit from birth, a man who embodied the fullness of the Godhead within, a man who was the visible representation and expression of the invisible God - but yet a man.
Of course, many of varying persuasions will cry foul because their deeply-held theologies and cleverly-devised philosophies block out the Spirit of Truth, and it is necessary to have a place where those limping from mankind's misrepresentation of Christ's Mission can recover as there is nowhere else for them.
The Lord accounts for the sheep of the theologies which create disunity because they will pass into an age-long life ("I give unto them this Aeonial life") where they will rid themselves of the ideas and notions that they had built up around themselves in their worldly life like a tower that blocked themselves off from their brothers and sisters. Here, if the inhabitants keep His saying they will never see spiritual death all through the Aeon.
God is pouring out His Spirit upon His people regardless of man.
Peace.
Lastpost, the love just flows from your words of wisdom. How refreshing they are. :dsunny:
I cannot begin to explain my personal transformation, but I will say that I found the person I really am deep within. You said so eloquently that the "physical body is not a body anymore but a spiritual body" and all I have to say to this is: Amen
The more I search, the greater the realization that there is nothing to find that can be found. Love is not lost. Father likewise is not hidden where he cannot be found. Father is Love and he created his children for, in and through Love. We are Love, we are peace and we are light. This cannot be realized by relentless searching, but by just "being."
Psa 46:10 He says, "Be still, and know that I am God (love)........"
I have come also to accept without qualm that without the Love of Father, I am nothing. Should I ever think of myself as anything other than love, then shame on me. But the greatest revelation and I am sure you agree, is that pure Father given Love trumps all. Eternal Damnation is an absolute damnation of thought. Not even Satan voiced anything as horrid as the professed saviours of the world.
Yet, and this should never be forgotten. Father has hardened the hearts of some and blinded them from the truth. Not that they should lose, but rather that we should love. Certainly, we can climb the highest buildings and shout our joy for all to hear, but can it truly be heard?
Our commision is to love and to love uncondtionally, without fear and without stop. Anything and I mean anything that I should do that does not fall within the confines of the aforementioned just makes me a fool. Fool am I to think I am perfect. Loved am I as Fathers child.
Thank you for a wonderful post :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
your rigorous bodily training in response to being disqualified, is not so much what concerns me brother.
For Paul aalso spoke of the taste not touch not mentality.....and balance is so badly needed.
what qualifies is love..what disqualifies is a lack of it.
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,but have not love,I am only a resounding 'gong'
or a clanging cymbol. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom qll mysteries and all knowledge
and if I have aa faith that can move mountains,but have not love,I hve nothing. If I give all I possess
to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,but have not love,I gain nothing...
If God's going to use us for a noble purpose..to be a vessel of mercy...BY GOD...we better
have mercy in us to pour out. If we be a noble vessel...of love..BY GOD we better have some
love in you to pour out. otherwise..we be but a pretty worthless servant..sitting on the shelf.
coz I tell you..the sheep won't follow any other voice.............theyv'e been skinned nd thrown about
by wolves in sheep clothing before. they been fleeced and preyed upn to0 too long by those that do not
love them and are but hirelings and show them no mercy or love.
widen out in your love of all men...this is what I say to you...d not despise the face of ny man
what is stopping us from pouring out the love? is it true it only requires love in return a simple heart
and obediant will? I think not..for He died for us while we were still in our sinful state...and love your
enemies doesn't sound like a requirement that they love you back..before you pour out the love,mercy
and grce .
the next time the spirit of Christ fills yu up to overflowing and bubble's up..try pouring some of it out
on other's...even those 'deemed' of men as undeserving. You will find yourself never empty again.
Dear Julie and Sheila,
Thank you for your kind sentiments. God is so wise and there is no end to the pouring out of His Love through His children so that they are a reflection of that Light on His behalf of those who know not that Light.
Peace.
Lastpost said
In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
The person you describe is the person I cry night after night to the Lord to help.
Some people claim that the sting of sin guides them in their choices.
They say I love Jesus and I am keeping my self-pure because I love him so much.
I do not love Jesus, I wanted to but I read Paul's definition of Love.
I am left in a position of only being able to receive the Love Jesus gives me.
I am left in a position of only being able to Love the Person you described above.
It is so seductive to say I Love Jesus.
I now tell everyone Jesus Loves me.
dajomaco wwrote: "It is so seductive to say I Love Jesus.
I now tell everyone Jesus Loves me. "
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Oh my goodness, the wisdom on this board is without equal.
I have no concept of perfection, therefore how can I love something or someone I do no know or understand?
Even the love of Christ to ours is separated by a spanse our minds cannot comprehend.
Yes Jesus loves me!!!!! How awesome!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
How could we have been created in the image of God, and in His likeness, if we have no personal will independent of Him? Is He not an independent creative being with intellect, heart, soul and spirit?
As we grow more and more into His image we grow more and more free, until we "graduate" into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The whole creation groans, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God, the first-fruits of the new creation, who will set all creation free from bondage/futility, into the same glorious freedom/newness they experience because they dwell/tabernacle/abide "in Him".
God will be all in all first in us, for all those whom He called He also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, who was also free- constrained only by the love of the Father He bore in His heart, and the love He bore for us on the cross.
"A man's heart, it devises his way, Yet Yahweh, He establishes his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)
"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement016.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInPhilippians/Philippians05.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil012.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil013.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil019.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil020.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html
Tom H this whole free will debacle is very interesting :HeartThrob:
I just had a thought of when I was a child at the dinner table. My dad said you can do whatever you like, but you "will" eat your dinner. :sigh:
I think this sums up Fathers plan (will) for us all, we can do what we like, but will come to the knowledge of the truth. It is going to happen, one way or another and there is naught we can do about it.
That is a good thing! :dsunny:
Love Julie
And God said, Let us make (bara) man in our image, after our likeness
The Omnipotent (all-Powerful) Creator, He who created all Life in every sphere, all laws that govern that Life - the intricate detailed beauty, the manifold wonders of nature, the seemingly endless constellations and galaxies in the physical universe alone that we can perceive - He who Created all that by producing a thought, no less - is not capable of thinking a child into existence with individuality? A child for Him to take pleasure in and love, to produce shades and contours to match the rest of His Creation?
And to make that child out of His own Essence - Divine Essence - how utterly exquisite and all-Generous! Just the thought of such a gift should fill His child with over-whelming gratitude to the Father of spirits.
Man should follow Christ's teaching and become as a little child.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 04, 2013, 03:47:15 PM
Tom H this whole free will debacle is very interesting :HeartThrob:
I just had a thought of when I was a child at the dinner table. My dad said you can do whatever you like, but you "will" eat your dinner. :sigh:
I think this sums up Fathers plan (will) for us all, we can do what we like, but will come to the knowledge of the truth. It is going to happen, one way or another and there is naught we can do about it.
That is a good thing! :dsunny:
Love Julie
Well, Julie, I'm glad your dad convinced you to eat your dinner so you could grow up to be an intelligent loving sister in Christ. God bless you and your dad.
Quote from: anna274 on August 04, 2013, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: Tom H on August 04, 2013, 02:22:08 PM
"A man's heart, it devises his way, Yet Yahweh, He establishes his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)
"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement016.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInPhilippians/Philippians05.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil012.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil013.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil019.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil020.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html
Tom, I'm so happy that you have joined this forum... I'm always looking for commentaries, studies, songs, etc., that are Scripturally sound... I so long to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Savior of ALL men, especially those who believe) and I am looking forward to reading the above concordant.org url's that you so graciously and generously provided. Welcome and many blessings on all your efforts t spread the good news.
Thanks for the welcome, Anna. God bless you, sister.
how is man's freewill in the image of God affected when he is sold into sin..simply for nothing[vanity]
and see the word of God to Abraham about how braham's seed would serve others..until delivered.
does being sold into slavery affect any man's free will?
something to ponder...being sold into slavery and being delivered from it of God= into the glorius
freedom of the sons of God.
and when we are sold int sin..of which the wages are death..we can see Jesus Christ kinsmen redeemer
that bought us with His blood..to set us free
Personally, I have always held that Genesis is a parable and that Adam and Eve represent all sinful individual spirits disobeying God by abusing the freewill after God asked them not to grab the shiny bauble of power that the slimy serpent tricked them into thinking would be theirs.
And here we are in our time and there's an "age-long pruning" (aionios kolasin) ahead for those not drawn by His Sacrificial Love demonstrated on the Cross. And those who have been drawn by the Love of God through the Blood given freely by the Life and Sacrifice of His Christ "pass into age-lasting life" δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον Matt.25:46
Christ confirms this: "And I give unto them age-lasting life" (κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον - zoe aionios) John 10:28
It is unjust to say "age-long chastisement" (Matt 25:46) for "everlasting punishment" (or "eternal torment") for the unrighteous and then to say in the same breath "eternal life" for the righteous if our objection to an "everlasting hell" is based on the word "aionios" meaning "age-lasting" and not "everlasting" (or "eternal"). (Incidentally, note the previous verses immediately prior - back to the simple Christ).
Ah, still more perfecting to do otherwise He would not have said: "He who keeps my saying all through the Aeon (εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα) will never see death" John 8:51. It is Christ's teachings which will perfect us after all. The Father spoke through Christ Jesus and His teachings remain applicable in all states of being, here or hereafter.
Our Saviour Christ promised His followers a blessed life throughout the Aeon if they should keep His sayings, and we are told of this great Aeon in Ephesians 3:21l: "...the Aeon of the Aeons" τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων.
These truly are Glad Tidings! Who could ask for more? That appears to have been the initial problem.
Peace.
How could we have been created in the image of God, and in His likeness, if we have no personal will independent of Him? Is He not an independent creative being with intellect, heart, soul and spirit?
I see it differently than you do Eaglesway.
We are created in God's image yet we know that God is eternal he never dies!
We have first hand knowledge that every human being dies.
How could we have been created in the image of God, and in His likeness, if we have no personal will independent of Him over death?
After all, is he not an eternal being.
Our spirit is eternal and so is his.
His spirit has no personal will independent of Him.
For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God, boast in Christ Jesus, and do not put confidence in the flesh—
At the same time, God also testified by signs and wonders, various miracles, and distributions of gifts from the Holy Spirit according to His will.
For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit,
For this reason the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead,
so that, although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm, they might live by God in the spiritual realm.
because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Don't you yourselves know that you are God's sanctuary and that the Spirit of God lives in you?
as it is written: God gave them a spirit of insensitivity, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day.
All those led by God's Spirit are God's sons
Last post says It is Christ's teachings which will perfect us after all.
The above is one of the most unbiblical statements I have read in a while
It is the very corner stone of Anti Christ doctrine
loved this Daj...no prophecy[testimony/WORD OF GOD] ever come by the will of man........
and the being born again..from above..is being born of the will of God and not man.
YOU...did NOT CHOOSE ME....but I CHOSE YOU.....
GET BEHIND ME SATAN.....man's will evidently is the will of the adversary...sold under sin to be
a slave/servant of sin/adversary...taken captive to do his will....but Christ takes captivity captive!!!!!!!
When you are living in the Spirit dajomaco, how will you be acting towards your fellow beings and God? Did not Christ teach and show by example how to live a perfect life? I trust that He did, He was Perfection. Do you suppose that loving God with all your heart, soul mind and strength and loving your neighbour as yourself will no longer be relevant? I would say to say otherwise is anti-Christ. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life in everything wihtout exception. Through Him we move and in Him we have our life and that is what perfects us.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 05, 2013, 12:45:03 AM
Last post says It is Christ's teachings which will perfect us after all.
The above is one of the most unbiblical statements I have read in a while
It is the very corner stone of Anti Christ doctrine
Not taking sides on this one :HeartThrob:
But I have never ever heard that as the very corner stone of the Anti Christ doctrine.
Would go please explain for the likes of me,. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Tom H... again thanks so much for providing the concordant.org material. I'm developing a rather lengthy article on "Begun a good work" as per Phil 1:6. Do you have any scriptural commentaries on Phil 1:6???? Thanks.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC11_Philippians.htm
QuoteWe are created in God's image yet we know that God is eternal he never dies!
We have first hand knowledge that every human being dies.
How could we have been created in the image of God, and in His likeness, if we have no personal will independent of Him over death?
I agree, we clearly are not God (so obviously we are separate), it is not so difficult to accept that God also had the power to give His children an individual will.
God's whole Plan is so truly beautiful, He has children to love and to give more and more gifts to when they are ready - our God is more generous than every human put together could imagine - and although they have been wayward He knows how to bring them home, complete and restored.
And the meantime, He gives us Himself through Jesus the Christ - how Beautiful is He, how anyone can opt not to spend all their life and time thinking about Him, telling others about Him, communing with Him, is amazing. To be as close to Him as possible, His life-blood is all a person should ever want, it contains everything sacred and ancient, everything simple and newly generated, everything wondrous and comforting. But then again is this Biblical!
Peace.
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Tom H... again thanks so much for providing the concordant.org material. I'm developing a rather lengthy article on "Begun a good work" as per Phil 1:6. Do you have any scriptural commentaries on Phil 1:6???? Thanks.
After I sent that link to the Philippians commentary, I thought I should have just sent the main link to the Concordant Commentary
on the New Testament.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:35 AM
Quote from: Tom H on August 05, 2013, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Tom H... again thanks so much for providing the concordant.org material. I'm developing a rather lengthy article on "Begun a good work" as per Phil 1:6. Do you have any scriptural commentaries on Phil 1:6???? Thanks.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC11_Philippians.htm
Oh Tom, thanks so much... as I quickly looked over the commentary, I saw the Table of Contents and then quickly looked through that... you have provided hours worth of reading invaluable material... I'm particularly appreciative of the fact that the material is written by believers of the true gospel "In Christ ALL nations will be blessed" Gal 3:8 ..... I've read some of your replies in other threads and find them very helpful as well. May His peace, joy, love, grace, life, light shine in your heart and mind.
UR V40P1 p18
"We wish to point particularly to Philippians as the place to learn the practice of prayer for the present. Paul opens it with thanksgiving to God for them (Phil.1:3-11). As we have already expounded the epistle at length elsewhere, we will stop only to call attention to a passage in it which is in line with our present theme. Paul is confident, not that the Philippians will produce good works of themselves, but that GOD undertakes a good work in them, and that HE will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil.1:6). Does not this give us the key to correct conduct for today? We should have our eyes open to His deity, and realize that He is the real motive power in our lives, and rely on Him, not ourselves, in deportment as well as in doctrine."
UR V63P2 p171
"What are your persuasions? Paul was persuaded that God was able to guard what He had committed to him for that day (2 Timothy 1:12). This referred to his evangel, but do you believe that that good work God began in you He will finish in the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)? Are you confident, are you persuaded that He is able to guard you and yours in Christ?"
UR V69P1 p130
"Responding to God's Spirit within us we shall be carrying our salvation into effect. There is no way to escape it (not that we would ever want to escape this grace)! When God prepares something it is carried to its completion just as we read in Philippians 1:6 concerning the good work He began among those believers."
UR V74P1 p118
"The good work which He undertook among the Philippians, in which He saved them from opposing the faith and graced them to be "competing together in the faith of the evangel," is a good work which He "will be performing...until the day of Jesus Christ" (cf Phil.1:6; 1:27-29)."
UR V77P1 p64
"Paul is confident, not that the Philippians will produce good works of themselves, but that GOD undertakes a good work in them, and that HE will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil.1:6). Does not this give us the key to correct conduct for today? We should have our eyes open to His deity, and realize that He is the real motive power in our lives, and rely on Him, not ourselves, in deportment as well as in doctrine."
UR V82P1 p3
"IN Paul's prayer opening his epistle to the Philippians he speaks of his confidence in God performing to completion the good work that He had undertaken (Phil.1:6)."
UR V82P1 p4
"The word "performing" in Philippians 1:6 literally means "completing" and refers to the process of bringing a matter to fulfillment."
UR V85P2 p285
"Speaking of God's specific work among the Philippians, the apostle Paul writes of His confidence "that He Who undertakes a good work among you, will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil.1:6). The Greek word for "performing" means literally ON-FINISH and is often rendered "complete." As a process, however, it might best be understood as "performing to a completion." God is One Who undertakes good works and performs them to completion."
Here are some good links. Make sure to check everything in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer Concordant Version Old Testament with the CVOT PDF version because it is more accurate. I proofread the CLV module for the New Testament, and I began on the Old Testament. Then I was told a new version was forthcoming and not to bother. It hasn't happened yet because the program author has had to deal with some other things to generate cash, and I know there are some errors that need to be corrected. The CVOT PDF version is the latest edition. The Commentary Browser works in conjunction with the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. Look near the bottom of the page that contains the PDf versions for the link to the Unsearchable Riches digital version. That's where these latest quotes came from. The PDF CLNT is not as polished as the PDF CVOT because they had no digital master copy. So I tore apart my book and scanned it for them. One advantage of it is the large text. I don't even have a book anymore. I just read the PDF Versions. Enjoy!
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
http://www.scripture4all.org/
http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:35 AM
Quote from: Tom H on August 05, 2013, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Tom H... again thanks so much for providing the concordant.org material. I'm developing a rather lengthy article on "Begun a good work" as per Phil 1:6. Do you have any scriptural commentaries on Phil 1:6???? Thanks.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC11_Philippians.htm
Oh Tom, thanks so much... as I quickly looked over the commentary, I saw the Table of Contents and then quickly looked through that... you have provided hours worth of reading invaluable material... I'm particularly appreciative of the fact that the material is written by believers of the true gospel "In Christ ALL nations will be blessed" Gal 3:8 ..... I've read some of your replies in other threads and find them very helpful as well. May His peace, joy, love, grace, life, light shine in your heart and mind.
I forgot to mention the downloadable PDF version of the commentary, and I should have included these links also.
http://concordant.org/
http://concordant.org/expohtml/index.html
The only thing I don't recommend on their site is the New Testament cassette tapes. I converted their masters to MP3 format, but the quality was so bad that I decided to just use text to speech. It's not as natural sounding as the human voice, but my files don't have text errors with static and large sections of the volume inaudible as was the case with the tapes. I only saved Paul's evangel, and some copies are here. http://concordant.org/recorded/index.html They're not the latest updates though. Text to speech pronunciation is not an exact science. I spent a lot of time and energy perfecting the pronunciation, and the President of the Concordant Publishing Concern retired before I finished. So he didn't get the latest updates. I have those and some video files from the scanned pages of the book and those audio files as the sound track in a Dropbox folder. I lost my webpage because Comcast discontinued service even though they raised their price. I made the videos specifically for blind, deaf, and illiterate folks because I had a friend in the mountains that couldn't read and have also known some blind and deaf folks. If you're interested, I could share the Dropbox folder with you.
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
Quote from: Tom H on August 05, 2013, 03:05:46 AM
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:35 AM
Quote from: Tom H on August 05, 2013, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: anna274 on August 05, 2013, 12:01:15 AM
Tom H... again thanks so much for providing the concordant.org material. I'm developing a rather lengthy article on "Begun a good work" as per Phil 1:6. Do you have any scriptural commentaries on Phil 1:6???? Thanks.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC11_Philippians.htm
Oh Tom, thanks so much... as I quickly looked over the commentary, I saw the Table of Contents and then quickly looked through that... you have provided hours worth of reading invaluable material... I'm particularly appreciative of the fact that the material is written by believers of the true gospel "In Christ ALL nations will be blessed" Gal 3:8 ..... I've read some of your replies in other threads and find them very helpful as well. May His peace, joy, love, grace, life, light shine in your heart and mind.
UR V40P1 p18
"We wish to point particularly to Philippians as the place to learn the practice of prayer for the present. Paul opens it with thanksgiving to God for them (Phil.1:3-11). As we have already expounded the epistle at length elsewhere, we will stop only to call attention to a passage in it which is in line with our present theme. Paul is confident, not that the Philippians will produce good works of themselves, but that GOD undertakes a good work in them, and that HE will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil.1:6). Does not this give us the key to correct conduct for today? We should have our eyes open to His deity, and realize that He is the real motive power in our lives, and rely on Him, not ourselves, in deportment as well as in doctrine."
UR V63P2 p171
"What are your persuasions? Paul was persuaded that God was able to guard what He had committed to him for that day (2 Timothy 1:12). This referred to his evangel, but do you believe that that good work God began in you He will finish in the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)? Are you confident, are you persuaded that He is able to guard you and yours in Christ?"
UR V69P1 p130
"Responding to God's Spirit within us we shall be carrying our salvation into effect. There is no way to escape it (not that we would ever want to escape this grace)! When God prepares something it is carried to its completion just as we read in Philippians 1:6 concerning the good work He began among those believers."
UR V74P1 p118
"The good work which He undertook among the Philippians, in which He saved them from opposing the faith and graced them to be "competing together in the faith of the evangel," is a good work which He "will be performing...until the day of Jesus Christ" (cf Phil.1:6; 1:27-29)."
UR V77P1 p64
"Paul is confident, not that the Philippians will produce good works of themselves, but that GOD undertakes a good work in them, and that HE will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil.1:6). Does not this give us the key to correct conduct for today? We should have our eyes open to His deity, and realize that He is the real motive power in our lives, and rely on Him, not ourselves, in deportment as well as in doctrine."
UR V82P1 p3
"IN Paul's prayer opening his epistle to the Philippians he speaks of his confidence in God performing to completion the good work that He had undertaken (Phil.1:6)."
UR V82P1 p4
"The word "performing" in Philippians 1:6 literally means "completing" and refers to the process of bringing a matter to fulfillment."
UR V85P2 p285
"Speaking of God's specific work among the Philippians, the apostle Paul writes of His confidence "that He Who undertakes a good work among you, will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil.1:6). The Greek word for "performing" means literally ON-FINISH and is often rendered "complete." As a process, however, it might best be understood as "performing to a completion." God is One Who undertakes good works and performs them to completion."
Here are some good links. Make sure to check everything in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer Concordant Version Old Testament with the CVOT PDF version because it is more accurate. I proofread the CLV module for the New Testament, and I began on the Old Testament. Then I was told a new version was forthcoming and not to bother. It hasn't happened yet because the program author has had to deal with some other things to generate cash, and I know there are some errors that need to be corrected. The CVOT PDF version is the latest edition. The Commentary Browser works in conjunction with the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. Look near the bottom of the page that contains the PDf versions for the link to the Unsearchable Riches digital version. That's where these latest quotes came from. The PDF CLNT is not as polished as the PDF CVOT because they had no digital master copy. So I tore apart my book and scanned it for them. One advantage of it is the large text. I don't even have a book anymore. I just read the PDF Versions. Enjoy!
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
http://www.scripture4all.org/
http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm
LOL I never laugh out loud... but I can't help myself... when I first saw the title of this thread several days ago, I took an inner vow that I would not participate ... well to date, anna274 has replied quite a few times... freewill has never been an issue for me... I simply see God's divine will working with and through man's human will to accomplish His glorious plan to bring all men to be with Him for all eternity. (God all in all).....
but, of course, I am so delighted that I did... Tom, thank you so much for so quickly, so graciously, so generously providing me with so much very helpful information... I haven't been set up to do the pdf stuff, but will get help this week so that I can download/print what looks to me like great material.
Well it's time for this LOL (Little Old Lady) to sort through the papers on my desk and get ready to get some shut eye. I'm an early bird... awake and alert at 4-5 AM. Have a pleasant evening and again thanks so much Tom... you have blessed me greatly.
Here's a link to Adobe Reader which is all you need to view the PDF files. Just be careful not to download McAfee with it. Uncheck the box before you hit "Download now." http://get.adobe.com/reader/ God bless you, sis.
If man has a free will, then the Lord God is not sovereign. Man has free choice, to chose, opt, from causes and circumstances that face him. And imo, the Lord God Almighty is the cause of ALL circumstances.
Should man have free will, then the Will of the Lord God Almighty can be usurped when ever man freely, without any cause or circumstance, uses his will to do what ever man's will, wills to do.
Should I give myself to accept that man has FREE will, that free will is a real and true virtue, that man can freely do whatever he himself WILLS, I would not, could not believe in I AM.
Isa 45:9 Woe to him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?'
Isa 45:10 Woe to him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth?
Pro 20:27 The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2013, 03:53:30 AM
If man has a free will, then the Lord God is not sovereign. Man has free choice, to chose, opt, from causes and circumstances that face him. And imo, the Lord God Almighty is the cause of ALL circumstances.
Should man have free will, then the Will of the Lord God Almighty can be usurped when ever man freely, without any cause or circumstance, uses his will to do what ever man's will, wills to do.
Should I give myself to accept that man has FREE will, that free will is a real and true virtue, that man can freely do whatever he himself WILLS, I would not, could not believe in I AM.
Isa 45:9 Woe to him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?'
Isa 45:10 Woe to him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth?
Pro 20:27 The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.
This is great Micah. :HeartThrob:
The simple fact is that what ever it is us mere humans decide or choose to do, cannot usurp the will of God. Father has said that he has hardened the hearts of some. Surely these can do or say what they like. The simple fact is that they cannot come up to Father and tell him that he has made a mistake and have Father reinstate their love for Him.
Any one who thinks that they can is sadly mistaken and no matter what they think, Father will not be moved. What they fail to realize is that Father can change our path and is free to do so, we however; can do what we like and not change Fathers. That is simple fact.
Love Julie :URWelcome:
God is Sovereign. You can think, reason, rationalize, and plan your next move; however, God directs your steps. I may have a cup of coffee in front of me, but if God doesn't want me to drink it, I can't. Again, I'm guilty of giving God far too much credit.....NOT. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
The Sovereign did not want Adam and Eve to pick the sinful option and warned them not to do so.
Although He knew they would pick that option He did not stop them choosing that option.
So they were subject to His restorative laws which He had thought out in advance.
God wants it achieved His Way not the way man says He should do it.
When you are living in the Spirit dajomaco, how will you be acting towards your fellow beings and God?
I won't be acting. I will just be a vessel used by the Spirit as he wills.
My eyes will be open so I can read what God has written in my mind.
My ears will be open so that I can hear the message spoken to my heart.
Did not Christ teach and show by example how to live a perfect life?
He most certainly did not! He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees
that no human being could be perfect no matter how hard they tried.
They could be made perfect by the Blood of Jesus, as he wills.
The will of God is that all be made perfect. Jesus came to fulfill the will of God.
Satan the accuser, teaches man, that they have free will, so go out and perfect yourself.
You have free will so go out and be perfect, there is nothing stopping you.
So as you go out and practice trying to live a perfect life he will continually
remind you of your failures .Then you argue with him "what about that guy over their he is way worse than me" He will agree with you "yes you certainly are trying hard ,
Why not go over there and tell that guy how badly he is failing. It will be a great help to him you can teach him how to live a perfect Life. You are trying so hard soon you will be teaching thousands how to be perfect. Just don't screw it up.
I trust that He did, I know he didn't
He was Perfection. He IS perfection.
Do you suppose that loving God with all your heart,
Go look up what Paul says about what Love does, and come back and tell me that
this is what you do for GOD.
soul mind and strength and loving your neighbour as yourself will no longer be relevant?
The best way I know how to LOVE my neighbour is to freely pass on the LOVE that God has freely GIVEN me.
I would say to say otherwise is anti-Christ.
Grace is unmerited favor this is Christ.
Grace that is some how earned is anti Christ
Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life in everything wihtout exception. Through Him we move and in Him we have our life and that is what perfects us.
In him we have our new life.
You must be born again.
You tell me how much you were involved in your own conception .
I can tell you how much you were involved in being born again.
If any one things that I should P.M. my responses to last post please let me know.
QuoteDid not Christ teach and show by example how to live a perfect life?
He most certainly did not! He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees
That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee, that's your choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
Also, if you wish to overturn the most two important commandments that Christ taught, that's also your choice with your own freewill. Again, that is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
I blame the yeast of the Pharisees myself and the associated doctrines of men.
I prefer to realise my own imperfection and require the age-lasting life He promised we would pass in to.
Peace.
True Love is such an easy path.
Some where in ourselves we have a conversation about who we are and where did we come from. I f I was created. I wonder if the creator is pleased with his creation.
I look around and do a self evaluation. I look at my fellow humanity and decide I am not the worst and probably not his favorite.
Then out of nowhere the possibility of being Gods favorite becomes an on going inner conversation. You are already his favorite is an idea that seams fanciful .
You want some kind of proof.
He sacrificed his only son to the concept of LOVE .
The perfect LOVE. This seed of LOVE was planted in the earth.
After a few days LOVE was in full bloom.
When this seed of LOVE rose from the ground
it caused a conception to start to grow in me.
This new life grows and thirsts for the LOVE that freely flows from the cross
on Calvary. You are amazed at how much you enjoy drinking from the living waters.
You may even put a stone (in your heart) to block the flow so you keep some more.
You realize that holding it in is impossible. So remove the stone and let it flow freely.
WOW God has proven to me he Loves me. Now let me show him how much I love him.
His holy word says you can't. The HOLY SPIRIT says here is a way.
Do you know how to feed your self. Then go feed some one who looks hungry.
All you can give is the proof freely given to you that GOD LOVES him.
The spirit will. Your spirit will nudge you to look closely. You see it is GOD'S
son you are feeding .That is your proof (the fact that you fed God's own son)
The spirit is living and God is the God of the living.
Dear dajomaco,
It is so wonderfully Divine that God pours His Love through His willing vessels who, like cisterns, reflect that Love as a demonstration of the Light of the World on His behalf, grateful am I that He has chosen such a flawed vessel in this child of His - so grateful words cannot describe it! :dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 12:23:49 PM
QuoteDid not Christ teach and show by example how to live a perfect life?
He most certainly did not! He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees
That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee, that's your choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
Also, if you wish to overturn the most two important commandments that Christ taught, that's also your choice with your own freewill. Again, that is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
I blame the yeast of the Pharisees myself and the associated doctrines of men.
I prefer to realise my own imperfection and require the age-lasting life He promised we would pass in to.
Peace.
"I blame the yeast of the Pharisees myself and the associated doctrines of men."
Well there you go my friend, that blaming of which you speak started with Gen 3:12 and the man saith, `The woman whom Thou didst place with me--she hath given to me of the tree--and I do eat.'
I do not believe in "blaming" what good did that do? imo its accepting His purpose.
"I prefer to realise my own imperfection...." As of yet, for me to see me as an imperfection, is to "blame" (to use your word) my Creator as to making a mistake....that for me would be foolish and you know what is said of a fool. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 09:32:40 AM
The Sovereign did not want Adam and Eve to pick the sinful option and warned them not to do so.
Although He knew they would pick that option He did not stop them choosing that option.
So they were subject to His restorative laws which He had thought out in advance.
God wants it achieved His Way not the way man says He should do it.
"The Sovereign did not want Adam and Eve...."
"Although He knew ...."
Oxymoron...a figure of speech in which opposite or contradictory ideas or terms are combined.
Sovereign...above or superior to all others;
When a sovereign power begins something whatever plays out was the purpose of the sovereign power.
Pro 3:19 Jehovah by wisdom did found the earth, He prepared the heavens by understanding.
To err, is human. The sovereign God, the Lord Jesus Christ, does not second guess. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
You do make me smile my friend. I will rephrase...
In my opinion. the reason that people change the sense of meaning of Christ's simple commands is as a consequence of the yeast of the Pharisees and the traditions of men.
Peace.
Please allow me to rephrase this also...
a) God made His children (who also had individual freewill) out of the Essence of Himself (likeness) and therefore perfect
b) The children could have remained in Perfection if they did not sin
c) If they fell to temptation to sin by abusing their freewill then they would become imperfect and subject to His redemptive laws
God did not Will them to sin – they had their own freewill, they did it themselves!
Sometimes we have to take a little responsibility for what we do. His Way not man's
Peace.
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 03:26:31 PM
You do make me smile my friend. I will rephrase...
In my opinion. the reason that people change the sense of meaning of Christ's simple commands is as a consequence of the yeast of the Pharisees and the traditions of men.
Peace.
"The reason that people........" Rom 8:20 For the creation
was subjected to vanity, not of its own will,
but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
What you say, imo, is still a type of blame. :Peace2:
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
Please allow me to rephrase this also...
a) God made His children (who also had individual freewill) out of the Essence of Himself (likeness) and therefore perfect
b) The children could have remained in Perfection if they did not sin
c) If they fell to temptation to sin by abusing their freewill then they would become imperfect and subject to His redemptive laws
God did not Will them to sin – they had their own freewill, they did it themselves!
Sometimes we have to take a little responsibility for what we do. His Way not man's
Peace.
"a) God made His children (who also had individual freewill)...." scripture please.
"b) The children could have remained in Perfection if they did not sin"... then the Creator went into shock when the woman took of the tree!?
"c) If they fell to temptation to sin by abusing their freewill....." here again, "If they fell..." means the Lord God had to trash His original plan and get it together? And please a scripture for this "free will" attribute or virtue, like when it was given to man.
:HeartThrob: It seems to me that this discussion has lost a little focus.
Is Father not so perfect that he HAD to have a contingency plan?
Lastpost said in part: God did not "want" Adam and Eve to eat of the apple.
So did Father have to change his plan? Thankfully no. :dsunny:
Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Mic 4:12 But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD; they do not understand his plan, that he has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.
I think it is dangerous to speak for Father who has laid out a meticulous plan for all of humanity since before the beginning of time. To EVEN suggest that Adam and Eve could have chose NOT to eat is Nullifying Fathers plan. :HeartThrob: Likewise, to suggest that Father did not "want," would indicate that Father "hoped they would not. Why would Father not want his plan to come to fulfillment or for that matter to even begin. Father after-all knows the beginning from the end.
Dajomaco :HeartThrob:
You said: "True Love is such an easy path."
Now that my friend is without a doubt the most unscriptural phrase I have ever read.
Jesus had much to say on Love.
He told us the following:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Can you today Love your enemies, even bless them? Can anyone? Jesus even told us to pray for those that use and persecute us. Do you have TRUE Love for those who daily do horrendous acts of cruelty to even the youngest of Fathers children. Do you Love such as these as MUCH as you love your most cherished ones? To love any of these even a tiny bit less is CONDITIONAL and not therefore perfect
I am not judging, but asking; because if you cannot or do not then why? After all you said true Love is such an EASY path. :sigh:
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We are told to be perfect just as God, our Father is perfect.
So are you Perfect? :HeartThrob:
If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.
I don't believe you really meant that.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?
The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.
Peace
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?
The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.
Peace
We have two choices here (note choice of what to believe)
1. That Father lives in Hope and changes daily his plan for the redemption of His children.
2. That Father is the Alpha and Omega, so far beyond anything simple thing such as time.
I am of the belief that the creation story is a metaphor and quite frankly as literal as a fairy-tail. I believe also that "we" Fathers Children have the Christ divinity deep within. That some may refute it, deny it or question it is irrelevant. I believe that we all pretend to know more than we do, that our world is physically real, but is actually an illusion. I believe that Anna has hit the mark with all her posts on LIGHT this morning. One day, everything will be seen clearly in LIGHT and NOTHING that we now hold onto so dearly will even exist.
Are we an experiment? Doubtful. Are we God's? Not yet. Are we Fathers "Play thing?" well truthfully, Father has fashioned us according to his will, hardened those he choses and blessed others. He does everything according to pleasure. He even states that we cannot direct our steps.
But does that mean we cannot chose to walk to the bathroom without Father giving us permission, I think not. Rather, we cannot direct our steps to the foot of Father and demand our money back for all the time that has been wasted spinning our wheels. So where does this leave us?
That my friend is the question as well as the answer. :HeartThrob:
We are where we choose to be (where God wants us.) Yet I think it is you that said LastPost, that we all should grow into little children (or something like that) which is PERFECT. Because where we are Spiritually is no different than a baby beginning to crawl. The baby seeks not to understand it, just to explore and grow.
If we as Fathers Children would learn to trust and NOT build or lean on our understanding, then truthfully our inner spiritual light would really begin to shine.
Please know that this is just what I believe and I am NOT saying that I am right or any other is wrong.
[size=78%] Love Julie [/size] :dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?
The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.
Peace
I went to sleep last night thinking about your very thought. "...God made man in His own likeness..."
Just what did Gen 1:27 So God created
man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Do?
What was it that was accomplished?
We know the living soul of chapter 2, tilled the ground, ate of the fruit, met his mate, became naked, gained a conscience, tried to hide, sent out of the garden and was really set to the plow.
But I find no evidence(imo) that that man, made in His own image did anything.
I believe, again imo, that the man...male and female...is still in the process of....and we, who have been found, are on the Potter's wheel NOW.
I see that man..male/female, prepared in the image[shade/phantom] and likeness[resemblance] for God is Spirit.
Joh 5:20 for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder.
Now THAT many member Son[and daughters] will accomplish much when complete(perfect.) :HeartThrob: But it is only my opinon(I'm getting used to doing that!) :dsunny:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 05, 2013, 04:59:18 PM
Quote from: lastpost on August 05, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?
The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.
Peace
We have two choices here (note choice of what to believe)
1. That Father lives in Hope and changes daily his plan for the redemption of His children.
2. That Father is the Alpha and Omega, so far beyond anything simple thing such as time.
I am of the belief that the creation story is a metaphor and quite frankly as literal as a fairy-tail. I believe also that "we" Fathers Children have the Christ divinity deep within. That some may refute it, deny it or question it is irrelevant. I believe that we all pretend to know more than we do, that our world is physically real, but is actually an illusion. I believe that Anna has hit the mark with all her posts on LIGHT this morning. One day, everything will be seen clearly in LIGHT and NOTHING that we now hold onto so dearly will even exist.
Are we an experiment? Doubtful. Are we God's? Not yet. Are we Fathers "Play thing?" well truthfully, Father has fashioned us according to his will, hardened those he choses and blessed others. He does everything according to pleasure. He even states that we cannot direct our steps.
But does that mean we cannot chose to walk to the bathroom without Father giving us permission, I think not. Rather, we cannot direct our steps to the foot of Father and demand our money back for all the time that has been wasted spinning our wheels. So where does this leave us?
That my friend is the question as well as the answer. :HeartThrob:
We are where we choose to be (where God wants us.) Yet I think it is you that said LastPost, that we all should grow into little children (or something like that) which is PERFECT. Because where we are Spiritually is no different than a baby beginning to crawl. The baby seeks not to understand it, just to explore and grow.
If we as Fathers Children would learn to trust and NOT build or lean on our understanding, then truthfully our inner spiritual light would really begin to shine.
Please know that this is just what I believe and I am NOT saying that I am right or any other is wrong.
[size=78%] Love Julie [/size] :dsunny:
First..."1. That Father lives in Hope and
changes...."
Mal 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Second, there is a great difference between free choice, or just choice and free will. Man makes hundreds, thousands of choices..freely..in ones life time, but at no time does man will, free or other wise anything. That is my belief and my opinion. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2013, 05:02:27 PM
I went to sleep last night thinking about your very thought. "...God made man in His own likeness..."
Just what did Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Do?
What was it that was accomplished?
We know the living soul of chapter 2, tilled the ground, ate of the fruit, met his mate, became naked, gained a conscience, tried to hide, sent out of the garden and was really set to the plow.
But I find no evidence(imo) that that man, made in His own image did anything.
I believe, again imo, that the man...male and female...is still in the process of....and we, who have been found, are on the Potter's wheel NOW.
I see that man..male/female, prepared in the image[shade/phantom] and likeness[resemblance] for God is Spirit.
Joh 5:20 for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder.
Now THAT many member Son[and daughters] will accomplish much when complete(perfect.) :HeartThrob: But it is only my opinon(I'm getting used to doing that!) :dsunny:
I am sure you are on to something here Micah. :HeartThrob:
Jesus did say that we had be reborn and it would seem that this birthing has already taken place for those in this forum. Are we mature as Father, not yet, but I do see potential. We are brothers to Christ as I believe it is the Christ Spirit in us that we yet in physical bodies are here to nurture. In love and in light. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Perf3ction is of the Spirit of Love...and God has demanded all the fruits of the spirit........
righteousness,joy etc..however long-suffering mercy and compssion also are fruits of thye spirit
of Love..and His desire to have these fruits developed in His spirit children that they be whole
is the very reason He made the evil contrast. suffering comes from the expierence of wickedness
mercy and compassion are also developed as a quality of love through the wicked contrast tool
suffering wrong/evil teaches and developes forgiveness[keeps no recoord of the offense]another
fruit of the spirit of LOVE
Learning obediance through suffering is what perfects these fruits of the spirit.
..so yes...He developes
and teaches His children through both positive and negative contrast...and makes all things work to the good
of those that love Him.
fair wether freinds are not really freinds..great bonds are formed and strengthened through hard times
hireling shepherds..false shepherds..abandon the sheep when they see the wolf[evil] coming
Jesus felt great pity[copassion] on the people..for they were like sheep without a shepherd....
skinned and thrown about.
He promised and left us a 'seed'..when He saw evil coming.......
so when you look about and see wickedness rampant in the earth..realize that through the suffering
of this evil..the eternal fruits of the Holy spirit such as compassion,long-suffering,and mercy and
the keeping no-record of the offense are being developed in the Sons of God...that they ay be
whole,perfect and in HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS..Lacking nothing of the fullness of His spirit.
remember this..everytime you start pointing the finger of blme..as Job's false comforter/freinds
did..and be careful lest you declare yourself more righteous then God..and obscure the counsel
of God without knowledge
Sheila that post spoke to me and confirmed what He told me last night. Brought me to tears. :HeartThrob:
Thank God He is wiser than we! :HeartThrob:
And Daj, I am hearing you... Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love
He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless.
But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him—
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely.
And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
So are you Perfect?
If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.
I don't believe you really meant that.
Love Julie
I really meant it .
I agree that the LOVE that humanity has for it's self is hard and not an easy path.
Then to think about perfection and how absolutely arduous it is.
There isn't even a single person born of man that has taken one step on the path
to perfection.
We are flawed we are not perfect No one even knows what perfection is.
The closest we get to it is by believing, we have been made perfect by God
That we had nothing to do with it.
The simple fact is we are not perfect.
We have been MADE perfect.
So is it easy to receive the free gift of perfected LOVE? –YES
Is it hard to keep our flesh out of the process? YES very hard.
The flesh demands it's Glory.
The flesh would Love to glory in the realm of perfection ,
the flesh would take great pride in being a part of True Love.
But the Love of the flesh is the love that kills
That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee,
that's your choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
Last post when we share our opinions with each other.
We have to share honestly.
Last post says that I preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the Live of a Pharisee.
based on this ...
He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees,that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried.
They could be made perfect by the Blood of Jesus, as he wills.
The conclusion that last post has come with is willfully ignorant.
Meant to stir up contention .
From now on I will PM my response to last post's posts
I am not sure the nature and purpose of this ruse
Quote from: dajomaco on August 05, 2013, 09:17:33 PM
For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love
He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless.
But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him—
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely.
And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
Yes amen!!
(Btw when I said I hear you, I meant it, it wasn't sarcastic, and what my post was supposed to show is that we are to believe that HE is doing it in us, and the only "work" for us to do is to believe it. But whether we believe it or not, HE IS STILL DOING IT. Hence why He is the Saviour of all men, ESPECIALLY (not exclusively) of those who believe. AMEN!)
HE opens the eyes of the blind, HE is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by HIM.
AMEN!
Thank you Daj for response :HeartThrob:
But Please for give my ignorance as I am confused still :sigh:
So are you Perfect?
If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.
I don't believe you really meant that.
Love Julie
I really meant it .
I agree that the LOVE that humanity has for it's self is hard and not an easy path.
Then to think about perfection and how absolutely arduous it is.
There isn't even a single person born of man that has taken one step on the path
to perfection.
We are flawed we are not perfect No one even knows what perfection is.
The closest we get to it is by believing, we have been made perfect by God
That we had nothing to do with it.
The simple fact is we are not perfect.
We have been MADE perfect.
So is it easy to receive the free gift of perfected LOVE? –YES
Perhaps, but I would suggest that although the gift of Perfected LOVE is given, it is not easy to accept or hang on to. You stated it perfectly: There isn't a single person born of man that has taken on step on the path to perfect.
I agree!!!!! :gimmefive:
But doesn't this bring to naught the claim that True Love is such an easy path.
I liken this to being given a corvette (I surely always wanted one as a child) but as wonderful as the corvette would have been, what use would it have been?
Perhaps the Perfected gift of LOVE is more like a trust fund that will mature when one comes of age. Until then, one can dream, learn all they can about the car. Pray for it, visualize it but the full realization will not happen until one see's the shiny new car, opens the door and sits in, grasping the steering wheel with both hands.
I live for the day that I can fully realize Perfected Love. That I can truly shine and become fully the one I have always been. Love fully immersed in Father. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Until then there is little I can do but patiently wait and Love as much as I can in the way given me. :HeartThrob:
I truly hope that you take this in the spirit it has been written. I mean you no disrespect.
Love Julie
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on August 05, 2013, 10:02:46 PM
That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee,
that's your :HeartThrob: choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.
Last post when we share our opinions with each other.
We have to share honestly.
Last post says that I preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the Live of a Pharisee.
based on this ...
He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees,that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried.
They could :HeartThrob: be made perfect by the Blood of Jesus, as he wills.
The conclusion that last post has come with is willfully ignorant.
Meant to stir up contention .
From now on I will PM my response to last post's posts
I am not sure the nature and purpose of this ruse
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: dajomaco :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
You are truly loved, yet I feel you are taking this personally and very much acting in the flesh.
Please, know that not one of us can read the heart of another, or for that manner the intent of the words based on the words alone.
If you are honest, you know that you spoke of some things that you knew would raise eyebrows.
This is not a bad thing and should never be considered so. However, should anyone of us be on a "Higher" Spiritual path than others, like ME then please show the fruits of the spirit and be patient with us and explain to the best of your ability what you mean.
The worst thing that should ever happen is that one should never apologize but state honestly that you have just been given a different understanding. No one is going to refute that.
So please with the spirit of love and all humility reach out your hand to lastpost as a brother in Christ.
I ask this in Love and as a sister in Christ :HeartThrob:
With Love,
Julie
Dear dajomaco,
Truly, I have no ill feelings. I know that you have a sensitivity which reacts to elements that are not in harmony with it.
Peace.
Dear Julie,
In reply and not wishing to upset anyone, yet I cannot really say it another way...I do believe that the Genesis parable was a Divine message given to man - but I also believe that it is not exactly as it was given due to the message being relayed by mouth for a long time before it was laid down. I also believe that revelations of God - by definition, if you will - supersede those passed prior due to mankind having progressed spiritually since the preceding one. I believe that, in the mind of man, God must become less man and more Divine.
Peace.
Lastpost,
I believe we are very much on the same page here. I believe that we should never lose sight of the divine message on the basis of what we read.
Fact, we know there were people in the land of Nod. We are not told who they were or where they came from, just that Cain went there.
All we do know is that we are told that Father created man and woman. Could be that there were humans of one form or another walking the earth for eons. This could be factual and still tie in with Adam and Eve being the first Father breathed creations, meaning that Adam and Eve both had at some level divinity of Spirit and NO other human up until that time did.
It could also be that Father instructed Moses to record the events that Father gave him, for our benefit which is the divine message you spoke about. The parables that Jesus used to teach with always contained a divine message but they were not necessarily factual. They didn't have to be.
The simple truth is that we will likely never know what happened during the 6 days of creation during this life. I think it is enough just knowing that Father created everything. :dsunny:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. :HeartThrob:
Love without judgment and trust without question. Let the words fall where they may and allow the Spirit of all truth to reveal all.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
You are truly loved, yet I feel you are taking this personally and very much acting in the flesh.
Julie if you and I where face to face and I said
"Jesus demonstrated(showed) and taught(using life lessons)
That the Pharisees could not make them self's perfect" .
"He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees, that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried".
Then you looked at me and said "so you are saying Jesus taught and demonstrated
that we should all strive to be Pharisees"
I would giggle and say no then I would say it again may be a different way"
after awhile if you still come to the conclusion that I preach that Jesus wants
to make us all Pharisees.
I would not take it personally the Holy Spirit is your teacher and you am I
to judge him.
Now the difference here is the words are written they can repeated
a thousand times by simply reading a thousand times.
Even when I notify Last Post that he may have interpreted what I said
wrongly( not as I had indented)
Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes to see.
I am convinced and I think Last post is convinced that this is not
a simple matter of miscommunication.
My life is made easier when I read your Posts Julie
One of the fruits of the Spirit is having no guile
I can imagine that walking with out guile in our fruit basket would make the walk easier.
Amen, friend, Amen. :dsunny:
I love the fruit basket thought, and as I think of it, a basket full of fruit will, without being tended, given out, or taken for ones self to use, will begin to rot.
And that rotting would cause guile(trickery, deceit, treachery) all human attributes, which love will overcome.
An empty pitcher is useless...unless filled. :HeartThrob:
****OP...Freewill is a myth and here's proof
Oh Dajomaco, it has surely been a long day :girlheart:
I never bought into the Pharisee debate. I questioned your statement regarding True Love being an easy path. The Love given by Father is priceless,it is life and all truth. How can mere man walk the same path loving everything and everyone as Father loves us.
We are here, all baring the fruits of the spirit the best we know how. We should always nurture and support one another and feast on the fruits of one another with thanks to Father and love for each other.
Love to you, Julie :HeartThrob:
[size=78%] [/size]
I don't assume Genesis is a parable. I've read about folks referring to the "other people" before based on a misunderstanding of the two accounts in Genesis. I think the folks in Nod were Adam and Eve's descendents. I don't think we know how much time passed and how many siblings were born before Cain went to Nod. Just because a few are named, that doesn't mean that's all of them. Those folks lived long lives, and must have had a lot of kids that spread out as far as Nod. Cain was probably paranoid somebody would kill him because they would have heard what he did to Able from some of his siblings. Adam and Eve's children had to have hooked up with each other because they were the only ones around. The genetic line wasn't as corrupt in the beginning. So incest wasn't an issue. Moses was up on that mountain a long time. I can imagine God telling him the story of creation. I know modern evolutionary scientists claim the earth is much older than scripture seems to indicate, but I've also learned about the bias involved in calculating dating methods. I know some folks want to compromise and say God could have use evolution, but I think that's just a cop out. I have no problem with creation happening just the way it says in Genesis because nothing is impossible for God. I was taught evolution in school, but I changed my mind when I got more information just like I changed my mind when I got more information about hell. Some folks ask where the different races came from. The best theory I ever heard is that Noah's sons wives' genes played a part. Assuming the brothers spread out to different areas after the flood dried up, large groups of descendents of each brother and his wife had almond eyes, darker skin, light skin, etc. that concentrated in large groups in different places on earth. I don't see the need to assume Genesis is a parable or there were other folks around before Adam and Eve. I know everybody has their own perspective based on their own life experience, but that's mine. I still wonder about that day the sun stood still (Joshua 10:13), and I hope I find out how that happened some day. But I'm not ready to say it's just a parable because I can't see how it could happen. Perception can be distorted. I don't know if those guys were munchin on shrooms or what, but maybe it just looked like the sun stood still. That's why "by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7). There's stuff in scripture that's mysterious, but I don't think that means it's automatically a parable or a myth. There's stuff that's mysterious in daily life, but I'm pretty sure it's real. Some folks think it's all just a dream though. I believe God is real even though he's invisible, but I can understand why atheists don't. I'm amazed by the intelligent design in creation, but some folks think it's just an accident that came from nothing. I don't know how the thing with Genesis popped up or what it has to do with free will being a myth, but I just wanted to comment on what I read. God is spirit, light, and love, and we are his spiritual children created to shine that love into a world of darkness. Let's do it.
Hey Tom H. No offence intended. You start out your post, "I don't assume.................. Genesis is a parable."
And then you go on to write about all your assumptions like, and this one stood out first, " Moses was up on that mountain a long time. I can imagine God telling him the story of creation."
As though the Lord God would have allowed Moses to offer a typo.
And how about, "Those folks lived long lives, and must have had a lot of kids that spread out as far as Nod."
Must have? We have no idea, accept to assume.
Now here you make a valid point, at least for me, " I don't think we know how much time passed and how many siblings were born before Cain went to Nod." :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
That is something to consider.
I agree I'm making assumptions because I'm trying to fill in the blanks, but, despite the fact that I don't assume Genesis is a parable, I have to try to understand how there could have been other folks in Nod if I believe Adam and Eve were the first humans. So, since it's not written, I have to figure those other folks had to be descendents of Adam and Eve. Scripture said they lived long lives, and yes I'm assuming they had lots of kids in hundreds of years. I prefer to assume that rather than assume there were other folks before Adam and Eve since scripture seems to say they were the first humans. Scripture said Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, right? That's a pretty long time. I don't know where the typo comes in though. I think it just comes down to whether you believe Genesis as it's written or assume it's figurative or a myth or whatever. There are mysteries in scripture we try to figure out by making assumptions. I'm not saying assumptions are bad because sometimes that's all we've got. I mean can we see God? No, but I believe he's real. So I guess you could say I'm making an assumption about that. I guess it's just a matter of what you believe or put your faith in. I prefer to make an assumption that the the story in Genesis is not a parable, but, hey, that's just crazy old me.
I do not believe Genesis is a parable either, at least not completely. Paul took it literally concerning Adam, as on man, through whom sin and death came into all men. I dont mind being in Pauls company on that issue. I once calculated that if Adam and Eve had a child every three years and their children bore children form their mid-twenties, one every five years- well I wont bore anyone but the numbers multiply exponentially at a fairly rapid rate. All of these kinds of discussions REQUIRE certain assumptions to be made(because gigantic lengths of time and complicated events are covered in a few words in the scriptures), and altho I am sure we are all sincere and hav given careful consideration to those assumptions we make, we cannot count them as authoritative and we can't convince anyone but ourselves by them. So that is why we discuss them on a forum, where we can present out opinions as friends and hav interesting discussions from our different perspectives. Novel idea actually, for Christians- who seem to love to bash, one another with their partially informed beliefs- but an idea that the "world" seems to have pretty well in hand.
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silvanus and Timothy—
did not become "Yes and no"; on the contrary, a final "Yes" has come in Him.
and that...YES come in the form of His son. to those condemned under law.
Now there was a maan in Jerusalem called Simon,who was righteous and devout....
HE WAS WITING FOR THE CONSALATION OF ISRAEL,AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS UPON HIM
There was also a prophetess,Anna,the daughter of Phanuel....coming up to them she gave thanks
to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the REDEMPTION
OF JERUSALEM
a sign spoken against.....a sign of the son of man.....a YES TO MERCY AND SALVATION TO ALL MEN
CONDEMNED UNDER LAW[do not eat of tokogae lest ye die]
JESUS IS A GREAT BIG 'YES!" FROM GOD....OF MERCY UNTO MAN..OF FREE GIFT OF ETERNAAL LIFE
A Son of comfort.....for I will not always strive with man,in that he is but flesh,lest the spirit
should fail before me. He will not always find fault. Psalms 103;9 He will not always accuse,
nor will He harbour his anger forever,he does not treat us as our sins deserve.or repay us
according to our iniquities. FOR AS HIGH AS THE HEAVENS ARE ABOVE THE EARTH,SO GREAT IS HIS LOVE
FOR THOSE WHO FEAR HIM[I AM FROM ABOVE],S FAR S THE EST IS FRO THE WEST,SO FAR HAS
HE REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSIONS FROM US
A statement by me....free will is a myth... and the proof is the Lord God MADE...man did no such thing, unless man did or used something material that he/man willed, that was not already there to make it from, then man has no free will.
When man can by himself alone, WILL anything, whatever it is, not already there, when man can will it to be, will it to do, will it into, or be, then I, that's just me, am able to believe in the free will of the human being. NOT until.
The doctrine and teaching of man having a free will is just as much a lie as the serpent when it said... Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God. Man's concept of free will is prideful self-delusion. Only Yahweh Elohim has free will, and the only way we can have true freedom is by following Christ's example when he said, "not My will, but Thine, be done!" (Luke 22:42)
:iagree: :thumbsup: Tom!
Quote from: Tom on August 07, 2013, 04:39:19 AM
Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God. Man's concept of free will is prideful self-delusion. Only Yahweh Elohim has free will, and the only way we can have true freedom is by following Christ's example when he said, "not My will, but Thine, be done!" (Luke 22:42)
"Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God."
What do you mean they found out the hard way? At that particular time was there another way? :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 07, 2013, 05:12:57 AM
What do you mean they found out the hard way? At that particular time was there another way? :sigh:
I ask this with much love and much respect Micah :HeartThrob:
But if that wasn't hard, then what was?
Love Julie
They found out, they realized......perhaps it is a hard way. sorry
How is it, my thought and accommodating opinion, a question, WHY is there a teaching that man has a free will?
Where did such a teaching have it's birth?
Where in all of the Bible do we find evidence of any teacher that offers such a teaching?
Is there a scripture an verse, that can substantiate such a belief, that man has or was given such a thing as free will?
For me the argument is, the teaching is blasphemous, the whole of the imagination of such a teaching rests only within the imagination of the human being, that man has the ability to usurp the Creator's POWER.
Considering, or thinking that the woman was outside and without regard of whatsoever the plan of the Creator when she took it upon herself to eat of the fruit, means she was on her own, it was her free will.
As far as I can read in Genesis, this is what the woman knew, Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
That's it, that was the amount of her knowledge and understanding. She never heard(that was recorded) the command "thou shalt not eat or you will die."
Accepting this, knowing the very power, the very Creator of that human, that woman was made from the flesh of man, the man of dust, that the Lord God breathed into who became a living soul, that woman, without knowledge other than the knowledge that she was one with the man, took it upon herself, knowing that her only identity was that, of the man...... KNOWING only that.... she had the FREE WILL to eat of the tree, eat that fruit, that act, that act was an act of FREE WILL?
Should that be true, the Lord God Almighty is NOT the Sovereign Creator and God. For the woman in Genesis 3...USURPED her Creator and His plan. And changed the whole of what the Lord God Almighty, the Creator had spoke and planned with purpose TO BE SO.......Could that be true? The woman messed up The Creators PLAN??????I do not believe that! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Amen Micah. :HeartThrob: To think that anyone or anything can "mess up" God's will/plan only negates God's sovereignty. God is either sovereign or He is not. :doh:
...i was born a sinner (i.e. imperfect) - not my choice.
I was "found" by Jesus - again, wasn't MY choice that did it..
God knew what was in the serpent's heart when God (finally) created the universe and man and woman. Why did He do it that way? Could have created the universe and man and woman before the opposer, like lightning fell.. It's my belief this is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. iF there's to be thinking ability that is.. As opposed to creating no rational creatures ever.. And the way Yahweh did it, aLL are taking this unavoidable journey and lesson all together, at once. WHY do we have to learn good from evil? Because Good from evil is also Life from death. One simply, imo, CANNOT wander from Life/God/Perfection and remain "living" [Unless of course God intervenes. And I do not believe He wants to be Cosmic Babysitter for ever..]
Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...
I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)
peace and blessings :hiya:
Quote from: marie glen on August 07, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...
I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)
If you can share it, what were the answers and what was it if not UR? Thanks.
Quote from: marie glen on August 07, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
...i was born a sinner (i.e. imperfect) - not my choice.
I was "found" by Jesus - again, wasn't MY choice that did it..
God knew what was in the serpent's heart when God (finally) created the universe and man and woman. Why did He do it that way? Could have created the universe and man and woman before the opposer, like lightning fell.. It's my belief this is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. iF there's to be thinking ability that is.. As opposed to creating no rational creatures ever.. And the way Yahweh did it, aLL are taking this unavoidable journey and lesson all together, at once. WHY do we have to learn good from evil? Because Good from evil is also Life from death. One simply, imo, CANNOT wander from Life/God/Perfection and remain "living" [Unless of course God intervenes. And I do not believe He wants to be Cosmic Babysitter for ever..]
Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...
I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)
peace and blessings :hiya:
Rom 8 [ESV]
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 07, 2013, 06:15:13 AM
How is it, my thought and accommodating opinion, a question, WHY is there a teaching that man has a free will?
Where did such a teaching have it's birth?
Where in all of the Bible do we find evidence of any teacher that offers such a teaching?
Is there a scripture an verse, that can substantiate such a belief, that man has or was given such a thing as free will?
For me the argument is, the teaching is blasphemous, the whole of the imagination of such a teaching rests only within the imagination of the human being, that man has the ability to usurp the Creator's POWER.
Considering, or thinking that the woman was outside and without regard of whatsoever the plan of the Creator when she took it upon herself to eat of the fruit, means she was on her own, it was her free will.
As far as I can read in Genesis, this is what the woman knew, Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
That's it, that was the amount of her knowledge and understanding. She never heard(that was recorded) the command "thou shalt not eat or you will die."
Accepting this, knowing the very power, the very Creator of that human, that woman was made from the flesh of man, the man of dust, that the Lord God breathed into who became a living soul, that woman, without knowledge other than the knowledge that she was one with the man, took it upon herself, knowing that her only identity was that, of the man...... KNOWING only that.... she had the FREE WILL to eat of the tree, eat that fruit, that act, that act was an act of FREE WILL?
Should that be true, the Lord God Almighty is NOT the Sovereign Creator and God. For the woman in Genesis 3...USURPED her Creator and His plan. And changed the whole of what the Lord God Almighty, the Creator had spoke and planned with purpose TO BE SO.......Could that be true? The woman messed up The Creators PLAN??????I do not believe that! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit was not an "an act of FREE WILL" because it was simply a choice that was the effect caused by spiritual influence just like we all experience in life. Eve didn't do anything different than what we all do, sin, but we are justified in Christ. (Romans 3:24; 5:1,9; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:7)
Nobody "messed up The Creators PLAN." God "is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
What do those who believe so think the human will is free of? The human will is not free of God's will. We are free to make certain choices that are the effect caused by spiritual influences that all lead back to the source of spirit. That doesn't mean we are free in an absolute sense because ultimately we are subject to God's will.
"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).
"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Ecclesiastes 1:13).
I think God in his loving ultimate wisdom knows that adversity strengthens our faith and increases our wisdom much the same as working out increases our physical strength and flexibility even though it involves some suffering.
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36).
Quote from: jabcat on August 07, 2013, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 07, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...
I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)
If you can share it, what were the answers and what was it if not UR? Thanks.
hi Jabcat! I'll try not to get too long winded, which :laughing7: I can be prone to.. And of course, all of this is "imo"..
...it seemed to me after I prayed, like the answers came back 'boom, boom, boom!'
And what it was, was God's Perfect intent..
My son's questions were actually answered, by his second question, in that we aren't an ant farm, or robots, and that's the whole 'trouble'..
When God endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be' - (fully known, fully intended of course) - because with thinking ability comes sooner or later, not 'free-will', but the ability to make choices. And God only ever able to be honest.. well, there was that tree in the original garden of life.
God is Life, itself, the Life force. And He is also Perfection (can only be Perfect, or He too would fade was how it came to me).
The trouble, or Pandora's box which was opened when He endowed thinking ability, is once anyone chooses any thing which differs from what He chooses, they become im-perfect, the opposite of Life.
Hence suffering, death, and the need for "rescue". But, since God is life, He suffers, lives though and experiences all sufferings which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that? Because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family! (And an un-breakable paradise.)
What was His other option? No rational, able to think, creatures ever?
I learned life as we know it, is an unavoidable journey and lesson - if, we are to have thinking ability that is.
We are learning good from evil, which is also life from death, and true from untrue.
Not only through living through it (the best teacher/experience) but by the Day of review/Judgment following it, when all human history will be examined and reviewed.. all this, our own experiences and an intense 'day' of review is working, and will work, to deeeeply engrave upon every heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and understanding of good from evil / life from death (thus will be an un-breakable paradise). All in heaven and earth are learning that one simply cannot wander away from God/Life/Perfection and live. To choose any teeny tiny thing different than what He chooses, is to simply perish in an apocalyptic, self destructive, puff of smoke (unless He intervenes of course; or teaches all to know better!). Hence the all important lesson of man's empire fading, crashing, expiring. "Apocalypse" being the culmination of this (oh so important) lesson of fully understanding good from evil which is also life from nonlife.
So in summary what knocked my socks off, I guess could be said to be the learning about God's utterly Perfect intent.. not robots, not an ant farm, but His very own family.. And He in His infinite Goodness and patience was willing to live through all sufferings and indignations which ever occur, in order to bring it about. If I remember it right, the first thing which came to mind during the prayer was that God could see all things, all possibilities "from the beginning" like a blanket spread out before Him. Every possible 'end' result of every choice or option He had. And that He has chosen to do do each and every thing exactly as He has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities.
I suppose this was the long winded way for me to say what I learned was God is Perfect, therefor the 'end' result of all this (life as we presently know it) can only be the-best-one-possible.
All this (answers to my prayer) concluded with a question to me! (I thought that was pretty kool too.)
The question was "why did God wait such a long, long time - long b'cause surely when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't that much to go astray about - why did He wait and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright trickery and sedition? I'm sure you can see the answer - So all (in heaven and earth) would take this journey and lesson all together, at once.. or else it would take virtually 'for ever'.. as one would wander / become imperfect (or, that is, in chains of darkness, imperfection, being inherently irreversible) now, another later, and still another later.. and later.. and another.. later.. etc..
I realized how perfect everything is, even life as we presently know it, because it is all "His Plan unfolding" to create His Perfect will, un-breakable paradise..
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 07, 2013, 06:15:24 PM
Rom 8 [ESV]
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
...true freedom :smile: :hiya:
the will of man is what gives meaning to the sacrifice of Jesus :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2013, 08:15:51 AM
the will of man is what gives meaning to the sacrifice of Jesus :o)
How do you mean?
Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.
Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."
God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).
IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2013, 07:42:20 PM
Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.
Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."
God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).
IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.
Thanks for the explanation, and I couldn't agree more! :iagree:
LIKE LIKE LIKE
EW, it seems to me you are speaking of choice, "Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love."
Is not the Father's love, His Will?
"God has given us that freedom. The freedom of choice and we chose all the time.
If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back."
No, but He will cause the circumstances for that come back.
"He knows.......Because that is His Will not mine or man's.
that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me)."
Making that bed is a choice, yes? In my opinion, until we see the difference between a free "will" and free "choice" it will remain a circles circle.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2013, 07:42:20 PM
Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.
Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."
God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).
IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.
Amen, bro.
There is a difference between "will" and "choice." I seems that when folks discuss free will, they often use these terms interchangeably. Webster's defines the word "will" as: "used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent..." Choice is defined as: "to make a selection." What folks term as "free will" seems to be a combination of both words: to have willingness, desire, and make a choice as how to act in any manner one may desire to choose. The "free" part of it is what is highly debated: is our will fully free, partially free, or entirely determined by God? Just because we have our own self-will, does not mean that we are not influenced by a multitude of things. Whether or not we are free to decide how we will act upon our own self-will, we make choices. We choose - and our choices are always influenced by something else. Whether God determined ahead of time what our choice would be, we choose. Whether God simply influenced our choices, still, we choose.
I think this thing about free will is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Our human will that comes from God provides the option to choose to do good or to do evil while we're influenced by spiritual forces we may even be unaware of, but we are only free in a relative sense because we are all subject to God's will.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
"I think this thing about free will is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Our human will that comes from God provides the option to choose to do good or to do evil while we're influenced by spiritual forces we may even be unaware of, but we are only free in a relative sense because we are all subject to God's will."
So man has no free will.
"jbertonbounds
« on: August 08, 2013, 10:46:30 PM » Insert Quote
There is a difference between "will" and "choice." I seems that when folks discuss free will, they often use these terms interchangeably. Webster's defines the word "will" as: "used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent..." Choice is defined as: "to make a selection." What folks term as "free will" seems to be a combination of both words: to have willingness, desire, and make a choice as how to act in any manner one may desire to choose. The "free" part of it is what is highly debated: is our will fully free, partially free, or entirely determined by God? Just because we have our own self-will, does not mean that we are not influenced by a multitude of things. Whether or not we are free to decide how we will act upon our own self-will, we make choices. We choose - and our choices are always influenced by something else. Whether God determined ahead of time what our choice would be, we choose. Whether God simply influenced our choices, still, we choose."
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Yeah, I think that's what Julie was telling us when she couldn't get that cup of coffee.
Quote from: Tom on August 09, 2013, 12:10:28 AM
I think this thing about free will is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Our human will that comes from God provides the option to choose to do good or to do evil while we're influenced by spiritual forces we may even be unaware of, but we are only free in a relative sense because we are all subject to God's will.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
I agree absolutley. :o) It is when we try to draw the line where relative becomes absolute that we get in trouble and exceed the word of God.
I want to say at this point that I have tried to stay out of this discussion, and that we ought not start up an either an indoctrination thread for any one point of view, or a new "free will sov" debate here, as this has been clearly limited by the site and previously debated ad infinitum. There is a thread that was established for the "free will- sov" discussion so that it could be closely moderated, since for some people it can only be forcefully discussed.
There are differing points of view. The idea is to discuss our opinions about them, so, since the thread began as a declaration that free will is a myth, it was already close to the line.
Everyone knows that God reigns ultimately sovereign over time and and over all beings. However, there is much disagreement as to how His liberality extends itself in the learning processes of life and to what degree He "directs" us. "drags" us or "draws" us. I am going to continue to try to hold my own opinions out....but if this turns into a thread where "declarations" that there is only one correct view continue.... I will discuss locking it with the other mods.