Freewill is a myth and here's proof

[dajomaco]

For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silvanus and Timothy—

did not become "Yes and no"; on the contrary, a final "Yes" has come in Him.

[sheila]

and that...YES come in the form of His son.  to those condemned under law.


    Now there was a maan in Jerusalem called Simon,who was righteous and devout....

    HE WAS WITING FOR THE CONSALATION OF ISRAEL,AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS UPON HIM

     There was also a prophetess,Anna,the daughter of Phanuel....coming up to them she  gave thanks

   to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the REDEMPTION

  OF JERUSALEM

  a  sign spoken against.....a sign of the son of man.....a YES TO MERCY AND SALVATION TO ALL MEN

CONDEMNED UNDER LAW[do not eat of tokogae lest ye die]

   JESUS IS A GREAT BIG 'YES!" FROM GOD....OF MERCY UNTO MAN..OF FREE GIFT OF ETERNAAL LIFE

     A Son of comfort.....for I will not always strive with man,in that he is but flesh,lest the spirit

should fail before me.  He will not always find fault.   Psalms 103;9  He will not always accuse,

nor will He harbour his anger forever,he does not treat us as our sins deserve.or repay us

according to our iniquities.  FOR AS HIGH AS THE HEAVENS ARE ABOVE THE EARTH,SO GREAT IS HIS LOVE

FOR THOSE WHO FEAR HIM[I AM FROM ABOVE],S FAR S THE EST IS FRO THE WEST,SO FAR HAS

HE REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSIONS FROM US

   

[micah7:9]

A statement by me....free will is a myth... and the proof is the Lord God MADE...man did no such thing, unless man did or used something material that he/man willed, that was not already there to make it from, then man has no free will.
When man can by himself alone, WILL anything, whatever it is, not already there, when man can will it to be, will it to do, will it into, or be, then I, that's just me, am able to believe in the free will of the human being. NOT until.
The doctrine and teaching of man having a free will is just as much a lie as the serpent when it said... Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[Tom]

Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God. Man's concept of free will is prideful self-delusion. Only Yahweh Elohim has free will, and the only way we can have true freedom is by following Christ's example when he said, "not My will, but Thine, be done!" (Luke 22:42)

[sheila]

    :iagree:    :thumbsup:  Tom!

[micah7:9]

Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God. Man's concept of free will is prideful self-delusion. Only Yahweh Elohim has free will, and the only way we can have true freedom is by following Christ's example when he said, "not My will, but Thine, be done!" (Luke 22:42)

"Right, and they found out the hard way just like we all do when we think we have free will and don't subject ourselves to the will of God."

What do you mean they found out the hard way? At that particular time was there another way? :sigh:

[JulieTang84]

What do you mean they found out the hard way? At that particular time was there another way? :sigh:

I ask this with much love and much respect Micah  :HeartThrob:


But if that wasn't hard, then what was?


Love Julie

[micah7:9]

They found out, they realized......perhaps it is a hard way. sorry

[micah7:9]

How is it, my thought and accommodating opinion,  a question,  WHY is there a teaching that man has a free will?
Where did such a teaching have it's birth?
Where in all of the Bible do we find evidence of any teacher that offers such a teaching?
Is there a scripture an verse, that can substantiate such a belief, that man has or was given such a thing as free will?
For me the argument is, the teaching is blasphemous, the whole of the imagination of such a teaching rests only within the imagination of the human being, that man has the ability to usurp the Creator's  POWER.
Considering, or thinking that the woman was outside and without regard of whatsoever the plan of the Creator when she took it upon herself to eat of the fruit, means she was on her own, it was her free will.
As far as I can read in Genesis,  this is what the woman knew, Gen 2:23  And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

That's it, that was the amount of her knowledge and understanding. She never heard(that was recorded) the command "thou shalt not eat or you will die."
Accepting this, knowing the very power, the very Creator of that human, that woman was made from the flesh of man, the man of  dust, that the Lord God breathed into who became a living soul, that woman, without knowledge other than the knowledge that she was one with the man, took it upon herself, knowing that her only identity was that, of the man...... KNOWING only  that.... she had the FREE WILL to eat  of the tree, eat that fruit, that act, that act  was an act of FREE WILL?
Should that be true, the Lord God Almighty is NOT the Sovereign Creator and God. For the woman in Genesis 3...USURPED her Creator and  His plan. And changed the whole of what the Lord God Almighty, the Creator had spoke and planned with purpose TO BE SO.......Could that be true? The woman messed up The Creators PLAN??????I do not believe that! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[bj127]

Amen Micah.  :HeartThrob:  To think that anyone or anything can "mess up" God's will/plan only negates God's sovereignty.  God is either sovereign or He is not.   :doh:

[marie glen]

...i was born a sinner (i.e. imperfect) - not my choice.

I was "found" by Jesus - again, wasn't MY choice that did it..

God knew what was in the serpent's heart when God (finally) created the universe and man and woman. Why did He do it that way? Could have created the universe and man and woman before the opposer, like lightning fell.. It's my belief this is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. iF there's to be thinking ability that is.. As opposed to creating no rational creatures ever.. And the way Yahweh did it, aLL are taking this unavoidable journey and lesson all together, at once. WHY do we have to learn good from evil? Because Good from evil is also Life from death. One simply, imo, CANNOT wander from Life/God/Perfection and remain "living" [Unless of course God intervenes. And I do not believe He wants to be Cosmic Babysitter for ever..]

Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...

I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)

peace and blessings :hiya:

[jabcat]

Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...

I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)

If you can share it, what were the answers and what was it if not UR?  Thanks.

[jbertonbounds]

...i was born a sinner (i.e. imperfect) - not my choice.

I was "found" by Jesus - again, wasn't MY choice that did it..

God knew what was in the serpent's heart when God (finally) created the universe and man and woman. Why did He do it that way? Could have created the universe and man and woman before the opposer, like lightning fell.. It's my belief this is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. iF there's to be thinking ability that is.. As opposed to creating no rational creatures ever.. And the way Yahweh did it, aLL are taking this unavoidable journey and lesson all together, at once. WHY do we have to learn good from evil? Because Good from evil is also Life from death. One simply, imo, CANNOT wander from Life/God/Perfection and remain "living" [Unless of course God intervenes. And I do not believe He wants to be Cosmic Babysitter for ever..]

Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...

I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)

peace and blessings :hiya:

Rom 8 [ESV]
²⁰For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope ²¹that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

[Tom]

How is it, my thought and accommodating opinion,  a question,  WHY is there a teaching that man has a free will?
Where did such a teaching have it's birth?
Where in all of the Bible do we find evidence of any teacher that offers such a teaching?
Is there a scripture an verse, that can substantiate such a belief, that man has or was given such a thing as free will?
For me the argument is, the teaching is blasphemous, the whole of the imagination of such a teaching rests only within the imagination of the human being, that man has the ability to usurp the Creator's  POWER.
Considering, or thinking that the woman was outside and without regard of whatsoever the plan of the Creator when she took it upon herself to eat of the fruit, means she was on her own, it was her free will.
As far as I can read in Genesis,  this is what the woman knew, Gen 2:23  And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

That's it, that was the amount of her knowledge and understanding. She never heard(that was recorded) the command "thou shalt not eat or you will die."
Accepting this, knowing the very power, the very Creator of that human, that woman was made from the flesh of man, the man of  dust, that the Lord God breathed into who became a living soul, that woman, without knowledge other than the knowledge that she was one with the man, took it upon herself, knowing that her only identity was that, of the man...... KNOWING only  that.... she had the FREE WILL to eat  of the tree, eat that fruit, that act, that act  was an act of FREE WILL?
Should that be true, the Lord God Almighty is NOT the Sovereign Creator and God. For the woman in Genesis 3...USURPED her Creator and  His plan. And changed the whole of what the Lord God Almighty, the Creator had spoke and planned with purpose TO BE SO.......Could that be true? The woman messed up The Creators PLAN??????I do not believe that! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit was not an "an act of FREE WILL" because it was simply a choice that was the effect caused by spiritual influence just like we all experience in life. Eve didn't do anything different than what we all do, sin, but we are justified in Christ. (Romans 3:24; 5:1,9; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:7)

Nobody "messed up The Creators PLAN." God "is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

What do those who believe so think the human will is free of? The human will is not free of God's will. We are free to make certain choices that are the effect caused by spiritual influences that all lead back to the source of spirit. That doesn't mean we are free in an absolute sense because ultimately we are subject to God's will.

"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Ecclesiastes 1:13).

I think God in his loving ultimate wisdom knows that adversity strengthens our faith and increases our wisdom much the same as working out increases our physical strength and flexibility even though it involves some suffering.

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36).

[marie glen]

Seventeen years ago my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great" (he said) "we get to be an ant farm"...

I wasn't happy with my response, so I prayed, and the answers sent back knocked my socks off. And they are still knocked off. (And it wasn't UR, that I always believed/suspected.)

If you can share it, what were the answers and what was it if not UR?  Thanks.

  hi Jabcat! I'll try not to get too long winded, which :laughing7: I can be prone to.. And of course, all of this is "imo"..

...it seemed to me after I prayed, like the answers came back 'boom, boom, boom!'

And what it was, was God's Perfect intent..
My son's questions were actually answered, by his second question, in that we aren't an ant farm, or robots, and that's the whole 'trouble'..

When God endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be' - (fully known, fully intended of course) - because with thinking ability comes sooner or later, not 'free-will', but the ability to make choices. And God only ever able to be honest.. well, there was that tree in the original garden of life.

God is Life, itself, the Life force. And He is also Perfection (can only be Perfect, or He too would fade was how it came to me).

The trouble, or Pandora's box which was opened when He endowed thinking ability, is once anyone chooses any thing which differs from what He chooses, they become im-perfect, the opposite of Life.

Hence suffering, death, and the need for "rescue". But, since God is life, He suffers, lives though and experiences all sufferings which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that? Because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family! (And an un-breakable paradise.)

What was His other option? No rational, able to think, creatures ever?

I learned life as we know it, is an unavoidable journey and lesson - if, we are to have thinking ability that is.

We are learning good from evil, which is also life from death, and true from untrue.

Not only through living through it (the best teacher/experience) but by the Day of review/Judgment following it, when all human history will be examined and reviewed.. all this, our own experiences and an intense 'day' of review is working, and will work, to deeeeply engrave upon every heart, mind and psyche, the full knowing and understanding of good from evil / life from death (thus will be an un-breakable paradise). All in heaven and earth are learning that one simply cannot wander away from God/Life/Perfection and live. To choose any teeny tiny thing different than what He chooses, is to simply perish in an apocalyptic, self destructive, puff of smoke (unless He intervenes of course; or teaches all to know better!). Hence the all important lesson of man's empire fading, crashing, expiring. "Apocalypse" being the culmination of this (oh so important) lesson of fully understanding good from evil which is also life from nonlife.

So in summary what knocked my socks off, I guess could be said to be the learning about God's utterly Perfect intent.. not robots, not an ant farm, but His very own family.. And He in His infinite Goodness and patience was willing to live through all sufferings and indignations which ever occur, in order to bring it about. If I remember it right, the first thing which came to mind during the prayer was that God could see all things, all possibilities "from the beginning" like a blanket spread out before Him. Every possible 'end' result of every choice or option He had. And that He has chosen to do do each and every thing exactly as He has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities.

I suppose this was the long winded way for me to say what I learned was God is Perfect, therefor the 'end' result of all this (life as we presently know it) can only be the-best-one-possible.

All this (answers to my prayer) concluded with a question to me! (I thought that was pretty kool too.)

The question was "why did God wait such a long, long time - long b'cause surely when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't that much to go astray about - why did He wait and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright trickery and sedition? I'm sure you can see the answer - So all (in heaven and earth) would take this journey and lesson all together, at once.. or else it would take virtually 'for ever'.. as one would wander / become imperfect (or, that is, in chains of darkness, imperfection, being inherently irreversible) now, another later, and still another later.. and later.. and another.. later.. etc..

I realized how perfect everything is, even life as we presently know it, because it is all "His Plan unfolding" to create His Perfect will, un-breakable paradise..

Rom 8 [ESV]
²⁰For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope ²¹that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

...true freedom :smile: :hiya: 

[eaglesway]

the will of man is what gives meaning to the sacrifice of Jesus :o)

[jbertonbounds]

the will of man is what gives meaning to the sacrifice of Jesus :o)

How do you mean?

[eaglesway]

Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.

Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."

God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).

IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.

[jbertonbounds]

Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.

Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."

God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).

IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.

Thanks for the explanation, and I couldn't agree more! :iagree:

LIKE     LIKE     LIKE

[micah7:9]

EW, it  seems to me you are speaking of choice, "Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love."
Is not the Father's love, His Will?

"God has given us that freedom. The freedom of choice and we chose all the time.
If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back."
No, but He will cause the circumstances for that come back.

"He knows.......Because that is His Will not mine or man's.
that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me)."

Making that bed is a choice, yes?  In my opinion, until we see the difference between a free "will"  and free "choice" it will remain a circles circle.

[Tom]

Jesus was a man. Whatever else one fells He was/is in terms of the deity( not goin there :o), He walked the earth as a man within the limits of a man who was walking in a faith connection with God(Phil 29-11). IMO this is the beauty of Messiah Jesus. He GAVE HIMSELF FREELY. He taught us to DO THE SAME. If He had no choice in the matter His sacrifice is meaningless. If we have no choice in the matter our sacrifice means nothing.

Jesus chose every step along the way to yield to the Father's love. He is teaching us to do the same, so that His glory can become our glory as well, "If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him." To reign in life, love and light- " the glorious liberty of the children of God."

God has given us that freedom. If we want to take it and spend it on riotous living, He will still welcome us back when we come to our senses. He wont "make us" come back. He knows that in time the consequences of our choices will "lead us back", and in addition, He will remain with us every step of the way, calling us home with warnings of impending consequences(kolassis) and whispers of His love(if I make my bed in the pit, there you wil still find me and abide with me).

IMO opinion, the whole "saved" and "saved from eternity in hell" thing has twisted our view on how God calls us and chooses us and where that meets discipleship and stewardship. God is not afraid to set us free. Whether we stay home as the faithful son, or go out and play the fool like the prodigal son- He knows we will all return, eventually, to Him- so there is no need to fear the word "free". Free only means that freedom which God allows, and it is given with a promise that the consequences of our choices will lead us always, eventually back to grace.

Amen, bro.

[jbertonbounds]

There is a difference between "will" and "choice."  I seems that when folks discuss free will, they often use these terms interchangeably.  Webster's defines the word "will" as: "used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent..."  Choice is defined as: "to make a selection."  What folks term as "free will" seems to be a combination of both words: to have willingness, desire, and make a choice as how to act in any manner one may desire to choose.  The "free" part of it is what is highly debated: is our will fully free, partially free, or entirely determined by God?  Just because we have our own self-will, does not mean that we are not influenced by a multitude of things.  Whether or not we are free to decide how we will act upon our own self-will, we make choices.  We choose - and our choices are always influenced by something else.  Whether God determined ahead of time what our choice would be, we choose.  Whether God simply influenced our choices, still, we choose.

[Tom]

I think this thing about free will is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Our human will that comes from God provides the option to choose to do good or to do evil while we're influenced by spiritual forces we may even be unaware of, but we are only free in a relative sense because we are all subject to God's will.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html

[micah7:9]

"I think this thing about free will is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Our human will that comes from God provides the option to choose to do good or to do evil while we're influenced by spiritual forces we may even be unaware of, but we are only free in a relative sense because we are all subject to God's will."

So man has no free will.

"jbertonbounds
« on: August 08, 2013, 10:46:30 PM » Insert Quote
There is a difference between "will" and "choice."  I seems that when folks discuss free will, they often use these terms interchangeably.  Webster's defines the word "will" as: "used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent..."  Choice is defined as: "to make a selection."  What folks term as "free will" seems to be a combination of both words: to have willingness, desire, and make a choice as how to act in any manner one may desire to choose.  The "free" part of it is what is highly debated: is our will fully free, partially free, or entirely determined by God?  Just because we have our own self-will, does not mean that we are not influenced by a multitude of things.  Whether or not we are free to decide how we will act upon our own self-will, we make choices.  We choose - and our choices are always influenced by something else.  Whether God determined ahead of time what our choice would be, we choose.  Whether God simply influenced our choices, still, we choose."

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[Tom]

Yeah, I think that's what Julie was telling us when she couldn't get that cup of coffee.