For a few years I've been on a search - what I find upsets many

[urdrwho]

I've been walking in faith since the 1950's.  Have I changed some of what I believe?  I think we are supposed to search for the truth and we will grow and some things we thought were truth's turn out not to be truisms.  Is this a rant or have substance?  Maybe me just releasing frustration.

One of my evangelical friends said she believes there is not any verse of metaphor or allegory in the Bible, all things are literal.  During a discussion on heaven or hell for a new born baby her response was that "only believers who are baptized in Christ go to heaven."   Ouch - I had no remark for her outside of getting snarky which I did not engage and I sincerely hope she never meets parents that just lost their two week old child.

Yesterday a relative brought up the phrase "the devil left Heaven and took one third of the angels with him."   His point of reference was Revelation.     Leaving on his own was the point of debate.  Michael Heiser is a good scholar and a fundamentalist so I pointed my relative to Mike's youtube Did SATAN Take a Third of the Angels with HIM?  "There are no passages in the Old Testament that have angels, as a group, sinning other than Genesis 6:1-5. You might be thinking, "well, Mike, didn?t Satan fall and take a third of the angels with him?" Well, yeah, you hear that a lot. The problem is; there isn't a single passage in the Bible that teaches that Satan fell and took a third of the angels with him in primeval days, or at all. "     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2JXyNz3OjI&t=18s

You would think I just hung Jesus on the cross myself because I got a stunning response about how I Satan is getting at me.

And then I took the plunge and talked about the idea in Matthew of eternal punishment to be a bad translation of the Greek aionion kolasin.  I backed up my idea with a quote (there are many) "kolasin has the sense of corrective punishment (and that aiōnion cannot reasonably mean everlasting when describing corrective punishment), those who wish to defend the traditional doctrine of hell attempt to deny that this is the sense of the word. " 

I backed up my idea that Chabad to present what the Jewish faith has on eternal damnation. 

"Do Jews Believe in Hell?
What Is the Jewish Belief on Hell?

Dear Rabbi,

Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.

Answer:  We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.

The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called ?Gehinnom.? This is usually translated as ?Hell,? but a better translation would be ?the Supernal Washing Machine.? Because that?s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.

I also included a link to Rabbi Manis Friedman to listen to a podcast - What the Torah actually says about Hell and How Does the Soul Get Punished in Hell? An Interview Rabbi Manis Friedman.

This last bit put my relative over the edge and he said "bringing this to him is haughty and argumentative."  I thought we were discussing not arguing?

I believe that without Hell the Orthodoxy of Christianity would not have a nail to hang its hat on.  Every tract I've ever seen or been handed has to do with "you must do this so you don't burn in Hell."  Without Hell people would have to join the church based solely on the teaching of Jesus, "help the poor, be a good person, etc."  To the church Hell is their controlling blackjack, get out of line and you get sent to Hell.  In the earlier times of Roman Catholics they took lack of control and heresy seriously, they put you to the rack.  The Oxford Convention of 1408 was all about keeping control of the translated Bible.

Universalism seems to square things with the idea that God Loves you, Jesus loves you.  If you are so loved why would anyone be damned to eternity because of life on earth for @78 years?   I can understand you may have some repercussions coming your way in the after life, if you've been a nasty person you just may have to atone for that but forever tortured?  Where does that leave babies, kids, Jews, Indians in the middle of the rain forest who have never seen modern people?  God allows these people to be created only to send them to eternal punishment?  That's love?

Life would be easier if I sat and listened without asking questions but I've heard too many pastors take and harmonize texts to make it fit their narrative.   Some of them are gifted at selling ice cubes to the Eskimos and can twist those texts with pretzel logical to the point it is hard to have a retort to the errors.   

[Song]

Yeeessss!!! Ok, talk about good timing. Was just answering another friend, can.of.soup's questions about the fallen angels and in all my digging, I didn't find any line in the Bible about "1/3rd of the angels became fallen angels".

I did my own math to try to calculate the percentage and... (quick copy paste from an article I wrote a couple days ago)

Mark 5:9 And Jesus asked him, ?What is your name?? He replied, ?My name is Legion, for we are many.? (Mark 5:15)

Luke 8:30 Jesus then asked him, ?What is your name?? And he said, ?Legion,? for many demons had entered him.

?Legion? is more than just a title, it?s a reference to a quantity.

Matthew 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Thus, there can be both legions of demons and legions of angels.

Some history sites tell us that legions were made up of 3 600 to 6 000 men.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/legion

Since a ?demon? is just an angel who is against God, we can assume a legion of angels and a legion of demons are around the same quantity. With some quick math we can found this out.

Legion = 3 600 to 6 000 demons

Fatherly Appeal = 12 * 3 600 or 12 * 6 000 = 43 200 to 72 000 angels

So there?s at least minimum this many demons and angels.

( 6 000 / 72 000 ) * 100 = 8.3333%

So based on these verses it's more like, let's see the fractions and...

1/12 = 0.083333
0.083333 * 100 = 8.3333%

WAIT A MINUTE!!! EUREKA!!!!!!!!! WOW WHAT ok let me calm down for a sec, i hopped out of my chair when i realized this.

1 out of 12 of the angels REBELLED!!!! THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!!!! WOW WOW :D

Remember how many of the disciples rebelled???? Judas Iscariot!

1 out of 12 of the disciples REBELLED!!!!

Matthew 26:14-16

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14 Then one of the Twelve?the one called Judas Iscariot?went to the chief priests 15 and asked, ?What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?? So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver. 16 From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

Based on the Legion Gospel accounts and Matthew

Thank you my friend, thank you SO SO MUCH!!! :D This is an AMAZING discovery!!!!!!! Wow, I'm really excited, this is incredible.

[urdrwho]

Math is our friend.  But you'll have a legion of Christians that will stand their ground on the 33% idea.  Dogma and doctrine are ingrained into the minds of many, many people.  I think (look at the pews that are emptying) a time is coming when doctrines, dogma and a lot of untrue teachings will go into Gehenna.  With the internet and communication we have today, the controllers, those who love the doctrine of Hell are losing control.  It is, IMHO, a kind of ego trip where the lovers of Hell think, we are club members and kind of special, the rest of the world is not in our club and are not special.

Just ask an Evangelical these questions and watch how they try to harmonize different Books to come up with an answer --

1. A two week old baby dies, unbaptized, since the born into sin idea, will this baby go to hell?
2. There is a 20 year old man who has been mentally deficient all his life, can not comprehend any gospel.  Since he can't understand enough to accept Jesus - will he go to hell?
3. There is a tribe in the Amazon who has never engaged with modern man, therefore has not accepted Jesus, will they go to Hell.
4. Evangelicals promote that the Jews are the chosen people, since most of the Jewish faith don't accept Jesus have we seen millions of Gods chose sent to hell?

You can come up with all different scenarios that the lovers of Hell will squirm when they cobble together answers.  They are a slippery group.  It's like asking them to explain how a transmission works and they go into telling how a differential works and is needed to supply torque to the rear wheels and gear ratios, etc.  They proudly think they have given you and answer but you are left scratching your head.

But as they tell you about all the people who will burn in eternal torment remember their back door response is --- Jesus loves you.  And they wonder why atheists think they are double minded.

[WhiteWings]

One third comes from this verse assuming stars are symbolic for angels.

Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth....

While the math is correct it's a huge assumption satan has only 1 legion and God has only 12 legions.

[WhiteWings]

The duration of "Jewish hell". Details vary between articles.

Somewhere long ago I posted something about it her on TM.
Most people <months.
The utterly wicked 11 month and 12 months for the ultra ultra wicked. Redemption of annihilation after that.
They also link it to a year of harvests.
Verses to backup those claims I've never found.
Views seem to have changed a bit over time.
Some source state the ancients there was nothing beyond 12 months but more recent scholars (11th century or so) hold a eternal view.




https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/

[WhiteWings]

The belief system of early Christians who were a bit closer to the Jewish roots.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/first500years.htm

(loads slowly)

[Song]

The belief system of early Christians who were a bit closer to the Jewish roots.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/first500years.htm

(loads slowly)

Yes, the header on the page "Early Christianity A Cheerful Religion." summarizes it perfectly. Now you have people unfortunately terrorizing others with the false doctrine of endless torment, not really a "cheerful religion" this "late Christianity" in my eyes.

Naturally, I think as ideas get passed between generations, the teachings of Jesus can get diluted with many mythologies, Greek, Roman, etc. And man-made terminology like the word "hell" (more accurately should be Sheol or Hades, Tartarus for the fallen angels).

(loaded relatively quick to me, it can vary)

[Song]

Math is our friend.  But you'll have a legion of Christians that will stand their ground on the 33% idea.  Dogma and doctrine are ingrained into the minds of many, many people.  I think (look at the pews that are emptying) a time is coming when doctrines, dogma and a lot of untrue teachings will go into Gehenna.  With the internet and communication we have today, the controllers, those who love the doctrine of Hell are losing control.  It is, IMHO, a kind of ego trip where the lovers of Hell think, we are club members and kind of special, the rest of the world is not in our club and are not special.

But as they tell you about all the people who will burn in eternal torment remember their back door response is --- Jesus loves you.  And they wonder why atheists think they are double minded.

A "legion" is a good way to put it my friend! Yes, thanks to the vast amount of useful information from the Internet, more and more are realizing the truth that Christ saves all. (For me, I'm thankful for Bible Hub's Strong's Concordence, for words like aionios and olam meaning "pertaining to an age"). I've found more information on great sites like Tentmaker.org then many physical pews. Unfortunately, many Christians say things and assume it's written in the Bible. That's how these special club mentalities like you describe are formed. Rather, I like to look for Bible verses first, and then use that as the foundation to construct an idea.

For that last part, I was just talking to a friend of mine who directly messaged me because they saw me preaching about Christian Universalism. They come from an atheist household, and saw all Christians as "bigots" due to the false doctrine of Eternal Torment.

03/07/2023 2:30 PM can.of.soup said "I read some of the things you?ve said in the server and it?s not like what I?ve heard other Christian?s say, so I was hoping to better educate myself"

03/16/2023 11:40 PM can.of.soup said "That is truly spectacular!! It must be fate, it must!!! I really want to thank you for spreading gods message, if it wasn?t for you going through discord servers and facing what I can only describe is borderline verbal abuse, you have found me and you have helped me!! I think I can say, with my full chest, I truly believe in Jesus Christ!"

Universal Reconciliation saves souls! That is the fruit of the Victorious Gospel. I am truly humbled by the Lord and grateful to God that I was given this opportunity to lead my friend to Christ  :dsunny:

[Song]

One third comes from this verse assuming stars are symbolic for angels.

Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth....

While the math is correct it's a huge assumption satan has only 1 legion and God has only 12 legions.

Interesting, WhiteWings, thanks for the verse. The relationship between angels and stars are interesting, such as this one where, does a great angel fall from Heaven?

Revelation 8:10-11 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood.

I do agree though that I made a big assumption with the whole "Satan's 1 legion army" vs "God's 12 legion army". I think, it's at least a minimum amount. But they definitely can have more. In fact, thinking from a military perspective, if Satan really did have a 1 legion army, it would be odd to put like... his entire army into one person? (Unless it was specifically because Jesus was coming...)

[WhiteWings]

The belief system of early Christians who were a bit closer to the Jewish roots.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/first500years.htm

(loads slowly)

Yes, the header on the page "Early Christianity A Cheerful Religion." summarizes it perfectly. Now you have people unfortunately terrorizing others with the false doctrine of endless torment, not really a "cheerful religion" this "late Christianity" in my eyes.

Naturally, I think as ideas get passed between generations, the teachings of Jesus can get diluted with many mythologies, Greek, Roman, etc. And man-made terminology like the word "hell" (more accurately should be Sheol or Hades, Tartarus for the fallen angels).

(loaded relatively quick to me, it can vary)

It's a really interesting book. Two men that preceded Christian councils that layed down doctrine where "UR-extremists".
If they were heretics they wouldn't be on any Christian council. And most certainly not as leaders of it.
It abruptly changed when the Romans founded the Catholic Church.....

[WhiteWings]

Interesting, WhiteWings, thanks for the verse. The relationship between angels and stars are interesting, such as this one where, does a great angel fall from Heaven?

Revelation 8:10-11 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood.

Keep an eye on the symbolic nature. Even in the OT fresh water was sign of sound doctrine.
Wormwood is something that makes bitter.
So instead of literal things happening, it could be understood as fresh water/good doctrine, being polluted by false doctrine (bitter water)