Much has been said about "end times" and all the devastation this earth is supposedly going to experience, then with this latest catastrophic event happening in Japan, the cadence of the alarmist's doctrines echo even louder. I wrote a song with the same title as this thread the other night and it's message really hit home in me in a powerful way. I'd post the song here but I left my memory stick with it at home. But it wasn't until after I'd written it and was driving home late at night that God spoke to me . . . at least that's the source I'm acrediting the voice to. You can judge for yourself if you choose,
Anyway, it's always been a BIG belief of mine that we're yet to see the fulfiment of the Scripture that professes "The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea . . ." For me, that's a world-wide event that will not be reasonably explained by any natural means. The it's the order of things that are to take place before that can actually come about that's come to my attention. It involves people. Us. The human race. We are what's going to bring that into a reality. But before we can engage into that part of it, we have to, as a people, have a change of understanding when observing these things happening around us that cause much death and disaster.
Right now, events like what's taken place in Japan recently often spark discussions like "Where was God? Why is he letting this happen? How could he allow such devastation??? And I for one, really am not of the belief that God "does" sit at the control room with his fingers on the pulse of our earth and galaxies beyond. Our minds can't understand how things like hurricanes, fires, floods, earthquakes . . .how could those get by God's ever-watchful eye? And knowing that nothing happens without him already being aware of it, our natural minds then conclude that not only does God allow them, but he'll even orchestrate them due to the sin of a city (New Orleans) or national belief of a country (Japan).
We figure if he's not stopping them, then he must be the one creating them. But what if he's doing neither? What if the responses we do see from him, are responses to those praying "to" him? What if when we see rescuers retrieving a person who's still alive from the rubble is actually God responding to a prayer of an individual rather than him interveining by his own accord?
I'd like to believe what you believe about God not causing troubles, but how do you reconcile that belief with the entire old testament? Especially
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (the word for evil is also translated calamity)
1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
I'm not saying the examples you gave were definitely God punishing people. I don't think that everything that happens in our world is a direct cause (evil) effect (disaster by God). Its just part of the nature of a fallen universe.
Yes, Nathan.
1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing.
Sorry, I can only write a couple paragraphs at a time, I wasn't quite done with the thought . . here's the rest of it.
The reason why I mention this is because what I've found being revealed to me is actually the principles of electricity. I'm not an electrician and I'm not advanced in understanding how it all works. In fact, if my house needs any kind of wiring . . I'll call an electrician and pay four times more than I would if I were to just fix it myself. So by no means am I an educator on electrical issues. But when it comes to spiritual, I can only absorb what is revealed and what I'm seeing is, God's power works "like" electricity.
If you look at any car battery there is a positive and a negative post. already I see the garden of Eden where there is the tree of life (positive) and the tree of knowledge (negative). And our argument is why would God create evil? Why would he create darkness? Death? Decay? And for me, he created a positive realm and a negative realm and like the car battery, the two are not to be connected to each other . . .if you did that to a new battery, you greatly improve the odds for an explosion. But if you connect the ends of both to any premade apparatus that can only operate when current travels "through" it, at the point of connecting BOTH the positive and negative, power is immediately released and the apparatus. Power does not release in it's own accord . . .it releases at the point the circut is completed. "We" are that link that completes the circut.
Without our engagment between the natural and the spiritual, his power is not released. But "through" us, this world will be transformed. So . . . knowing that is how it works, I believe if we don't engage ourselves in releasing his power through our prophetic prayers and proclamations, I believe God creates an environment where we "will" call on his name . . .this realm is a realm where negative things happen all the time, because we're born on the negative side of creation . . .that's what the natural realm is . . .you begin dying the moment you're born. It's not that God brings calamity, it's that calamity is the nature of the realm we live in and God "uses" that calamity to usher in his purposes for our lives. Can you imagine just how many people were calling on the name of the Lord during that earth quake? Rather than looking at the devastation, perhaps what we "should" be doing is preparing for a new revival to break forth as a result of the prayers of all who've been calling on his name.
Quote from: Nathan"We" are that link that completes the circut.
Yes, Nathan. I saw this years ago.
Right now two reactors in Japan are threatening a meltdown. Good time to start praying.
Nathan, this story illustrates your electricity theory:
And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
--Mark 5
"virtue" [had gone out of him]
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Amen to that Molly. :bigGrin:
I think all these natural disasters are something to with the return of Jesus. Dark forces struggling against the light, causing disturbances in the delicate forces in the earth's sphere's, gravitational, and radionic fields, also causing tectonic movements, in the sea in Japans case, causing a Tidal wave to crash into Japans coastline.
Depends on one's perspective of what return we're talking about . . .I'm not one that supports the idea that he's returning to the flesh "in" the flesh . . .he's already done that. Just me though . . .not trying to force you to agree with me, but I think much is missed when emphasizing literal and natural applications "too" much.
He's going to return in his glorified body of light--us.
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Quote from: thinktank on March 14, 2011, 09:00:37 PM
I think all these natural disasters are something to with the return of Jesus. Dark forces struggling against the light, causing disturbances in the delicate forces in the earth's sphere's, gravitational, and radionic fields, also causing tectonic movements, in the sea in Japans case, causing a Tidal wave to crash into Japans coastline.
Yes. Because of this principle:
Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did
much more abound:
Which is why he says this:
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
--Rev 22
Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2011, 09:14:30 PM
He's going to return in his glorified body of light--us.
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
I agree with Molly that he returns the same manner in which he left, so why stand ye here gazing.
But I also thinks he approaches, through time, perhaps, glowing steadily brighter towards our world as our world becomes His.
What manner do you see that referring to TT?
Seems unthinkable, but he comes from the sky and lands on Mount Olives. He might appear in flesh if needs be, he is able.
Nathan, have you ever heard of the Electric Universe? Its a scientific theory. Its a theory that goes against the standard cosmological theories, that the universe is run by an electrical circuit.
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 14, 2011, 11:03:07 PM
Nathan, have you ever heard of the Electric Universe? Its a scientific theory. Its a theory that goes against the standard cosmological theories, that the universe is run by an electrical circuit.
Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago by instinct or reason; it has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic! If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic — and this we know it is, for certain — then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.
--Nikola Tesla
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 12:18:52 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 14, 2011, 11:03:07 PM
Nathan, have you ever heard of the Electric Universe? Its a scientific theory. Its a theory that goes against the standard cosmological theories, that the universe is run by an electrical circuit.
Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago by instinct or reason; it has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic! If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic — and this we know it is, for certain — then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.
--Nikola Tesla
Do you think this will be held back by men's evil imaginations and scheming, until the day when "everyone's calling on Jesus", i.e., He is ushering in the next age and placing all enemies under His feet?
Quote from: Nathan
"We" are that link that completes the circut.Quote
Nathan, what if it is God who is the link that completes the circuit?
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on March 15, 2011, 01:28:39 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 12:18:52 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 14, 2011, 11:03:07 PM
Nathan, have you ever heard of the Electric Universe? Its a scientific theory. Its a theory that goes against the standard cosmological theories, that the universe is run by an electrical circuit.
Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago by instinct or reason; it has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic! If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic — and this we know it is, for certain — then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.
--Nikola Tesla
Do you think this will be held back by men's evil imaginations and scheming, until the day when "everyone's calling on Jesus", i.e., He is ushering in the next age and placing all enemies under His feet?
I think it has been held back for over 100 years. Tesla was trying to give free electricity to the world [wireless] at the turn of the last century [early 1900's] and he was shut down. Maybe what you are describing will be the resolution of it but it won't end until control is wrested out of the hands of Satan, imo.
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: Nathan
"We" are that link that completes the circut.
Nathan, what if it is God who is the link that completes the circuit?
CHB
Another way to look at it--our faith plugs us into the circuit.
Molly, I'm afraid my faith is just too weak for that. :sigh:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 01:53:31 AM
Molly, I'm afraid my faith is just too weak for that. :sigh:
CHB
I don't think it's anything
we manufacture, C. God can and will do it through us when it's time. The closer we are to Him and the more we're filled with Him, the better;
"I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit: for apart from me you can do nothing." :thumbsup:
There's a famous inventor in Japan who invented the floppy disk, he claims to have his home powered by energy from the universe.
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 01:53:31 AM
Molly, I'm afraid my faith is just too weak for that. :sigh:
CHB
CHB, it's his faith, not ours, like Jab said, and we only need the size of a mustard seed to start. I had an advantage of watching my mother walk in faith [which she did all the time], but when I started walking out in faith it was because I had no choice--either I had faith he was going to fix things or I was dead in the water. But, I think it's easier to start off with small things--having faith in him for particular, small things before building up to moving mountains lol.
There's a movie called Conviction that I saw recently. That woman had the type of faith that is required to move mountains--unswerving, single minded, refusing to take no for an answer,patient and enduring, and without any doubt-- total faith. We learn that by stepping out in it.
Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Quote from: Molly
CHB, it's his faith, not ours,
Absolutely Molly. :thumbsup:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: Molly
CHB, it's his faith, not ours,
Absolutely Molly. :thumbsup:
CHB
So do you still feel your 'faith is too weak'? :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on March 14, 2011, 10:08:04 PM
Seems unthinkable, but he comes from the sky and lands on Mount Olives. He might appear in flesh if needs be, he is able.
That's just it . . why would he need to confine himself back to the flesh again? There are things I don't think people take under consideration on this particular piece of it. For one, the reason he came in the flesh was to redeem that part of us back to the Father . . .he used his flesh as the ultimate sacrifice. If he redeemed flesh back, why are we insisting he should need to return back "in" the flesh that he's already redeemed? Flesh is not liberating, it's restricting, the freedom is in the spirit, not in the flesh.
Secondly, when he sat down with the disciples for the last time, he said it was with "great" desire that he desired for his time to come . . .as great as what he did at the cross for us was, death was only a part of it. Remember when he was born, his name was to be called "Emanuel" which means "God with us". It's been God's desire from the beginning of man, that God could dwell with man . . .that was Jesus' desire that night, he wasn't looking to his death, he was looking to his spirit being poured out upon all flesh so that he could be "in" man.
So . . . if we insist he returns in a body of flesh, where do you think his spirit is? He couldn't pour out his spirit upon all flesh until after he died because that same spirit was confined to his one body of flesh, but now that it's in all flesh, why would we think it would return back to one body of flesh again? That's why I wholly beleive that the only body of flesh that Jesus is giong to manifest himself in is a corporate body, with him as the head. I personallyl don't want to have him return in flesh, I want to go to him in spirit rather than have him come to me in this realm of flesh.
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 14, 2011, 11:03:07 PM
Nathan, have you ever heard of the Electric Universe? Its a scientific theory. Its a theory that goes against the standard cosmological theories, that the universe is run by an electrical circuit.
No, I haven't heard of that, but I can see how that would make sense.
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: Nathan
"We" are that link that completes the circut.Quote
Nathan, what if it is God who is the link that completes the circuit?
CHB
God "is" the powersource of the circuitry , but he's chosen us to be a part of it as we are made in his "likeness". We are "in" the flesh/negative realm of it, he is in the spirit/positive part of it. The purpose of a battery is to release electrical current, same as the power of life within us. But if the circut is broken, the battery retains the energy charge . . .God is the entire battery, through us his current flows. Our current doesn't flow through him, his flows through us.
Another way to see this would be to see ourselves as the battery that operates through the same kingdom principles as electricity, but he is the power source that we plug into to be recharged.
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: Molly
CHB, it's his faith, not ours,
Absolutely Molly. :thumbsup:
CHB
So do you still feel your 'faith is too weak'? :dontknow:
Hi Molly,
Yes, my faith is weak but His is not.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: Molly
CHB, it's his faith, not ours,
Absolutely Molly. :thumbsup:
CHB
So do you still feel your 'faith is too weak'? :dontknow:
Hi Molly,
Yes, my faith is weak but His is not.
CHB
Then why didn't you say that?
I am surrounded by people who have no faith , and also by a few people who have weak faith and want more.
Practically speaking--How can you tell whose faith you have? How do you know this faith I have is his, not mine? Is it by the strength of it? Are you double minded, experiencing both a weak and a strong faith at the same time? Are you buffeted between both the weak and the strong?
Any amount of faith we have in Christ comes from him.
The bleeding woman had just enough faith to cause her to move heaven and earth to touch the hem of Jesus [the boundary of heaven] because she knew that would heal her.
Ah faith, has brought me a lot of trouble, faith isn't allways good, sometimes better to be practical.
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 05:05:50 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 15, 2011, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: Molly
CHB, it's his faith, not ours,
Absolutely Molly. :thumbsup:
CHB
So do you still feel your 'faith is too weak'? :dontknow:
Hi Molly,
Yes, my faith is weak but His is not.
CHB
Then why didn't you say that?
I am surrounded by people who have no faith , and also by a few people who have weak faith and want more.
Practically speaking--How can you tell whose faith you have? How do you know this faith I have is his, not mine? Is it by the strength of it? Are you double minded, experiencing both a weak and a strong faith at the same time? Are you buffeted between both the weak and the strong?
Any amount of faith we have in Christ comes from him.
The bleeding woman had just enough faith to cause her to move heaven and earth to touch the hem of Jesus [the boundary of heaven] because she knew that would heal her.
Molly, I thought it was obvious what I was saying but I guess not. :sigh:
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on March 15, 2011, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: thinktank on March 14, 2011, 10:08:04 PM
Seems unthinkable, but he comes from the sky and lands on Mount Olives. He might appear in flesh if needs be, he is able.
That's just it . . why would he need to confine himself back to the flesh again? There are things I don't think people take under consideration on this particular piece of it. For one, the reason he came in the flesh was to redeem that part of us back to the Father . . .he used his flesh as the ultimate sacrifice. If he redeemed flesh back, why are we insisting he should need to return back "in" the flesh that he's already redeemed? Flesh is not liberating, it's restricting, the freedom is in the spirit, not in the flesh.
Your kind of contradicting yourself here, I think you are struggling with the issue of the flesh. You seem to think that flesh is evil, but yet say Jesus reedemed our flesh. You seeem to think that if Jesus become flesh he is limited? .Why can't Jesus come back in spirit and turn into flesh? Is this against scripture? What about the time he talked to the disciples on the road? Did they think he was an angel. No they talked to him thinking he was a man. What about the time he said "He that loveth me we will manifest ourself to him. Jesus is a shape shifter and can change into anything I feel, I hope when I meet him face to face to be able to talk to him as a lion, like in the film the lion and the witch wadrobe, I'd feel more confortable talking to a lion than a man, the lion of the tribe of Judah.
TT
Secondly, when he sat down with the disciples for the last time, he said it was with "great" desire that he desired for his time to come . . .as great as what he did at the cross for us was, death was only a part of it. Remember when he was born, his name was to be called "Emanuel" which means "God with us". It's been God's desire from the beginning of man, that God could dwell with man . . .that was Jesus' desire that night, he wasn't looking to his death, he was looking to his spirit being poured out upon all flesh so that he could be "in" man.
There's allways more to learn about the cross, I still feel a lack of understanding in this area.
TT
So . . . if we insist he returns in a body of flesh, where do you think his spirit is? He couldn't pour out his spirit upon all flesh until after he died because that same spirit was confined to his one body of flesh, but now that it's in all flesh, why would we think it would return back to one body of flesh again? That's why I wholly believe that the only body of flesh that Jesus is giong to manifest himself in is a corporate body, with him as the head. I personally don't want to have him return in flesh, I want to go to him in spirit rather than have him come to me in this realm of flesh.
Good news is that you will go to him in spirit. Apostle Paul said we will all change in a twinkling of an eye and meet the lord in the air.
Jude also says that he will return with 10 thousands of his saints to execute judgment upon the ungodly.
You seem to be mixing things up . . on the one hand you're saying we'll go to him in spirit, then on the other you say ungodly people (literal, natural, physical) will be judged . . which is it?
For me, it's ALL spiritual. We DO get raptured up into his presence where we can be with him in the spirit and the judgement to the unrighteous is not men, it's the unrighteous MAN "in" MEN. Huge difference . . .as it is with the entire book of Revelation.
If' I'm walking in the spirit, I can't very well proclaim death to men . . .men are not in spirit, they are in flesh. But when I proclaim death to the man in men, then that sets men free instead of sending them into condemnation.
It would beg the question . . .did the work Jesus did on the cross remove sin or not? Because for those who still think some form of infliction is still yet to come to people would then say that the cross wasn't enough to cover all sin . . . you have to be spirituallly/physically punished as well . . cuz that's what un-con-dition-al love . . .is all about???? it's not fitting the nature of Love at all. Love IS . . .forgiveness . . .grace, pardoning .. .love is blind. . .love transcends all dimensions of life.
I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance, keeping all that anger and hatred inside is not good for a man. The good news in my opinion is that God promises vengeance for us, so we can rest knowing that our enemies will face the judgment of God. This I believe brings great comfort to people when they are suffering under evil people, I know from personal experience that when I directed my anger towards, the vengeance and justice of God, a great evil lifted off me. So instead of directing anger towards the evil people, instead direct the anger at inside of Gods vengeance, that he will satisfy our desire for revenge and that our true enemies will suffer the vengeance of almighty God. Hallelliwia
Wow . . . what part of unconditional love aren't you getting here .. .if he's asking us to turn the other cheek, you really think he's not going to do the same to our so called enemies? We're to love those that hate us . . .so that he can turn around and punish them???
I think what you're dealing with in this idea that it feels good to see God punishing our enemies is flesh and ego looking for someone to stroke it for them . . .I seriously don't think that's what God intends for us to expect of him at all. Pure love forgives even those who trespass against us. God doesn't ask me to do what he's not already done himself. If I"m to love my enemies it's saying God already does as well. When God judges, it's out of love, not vengeance. He as the authority to be a vengeful God, but what he's judging, again, is not the person, it's the carnality that the person is infuenced by.
Ever hear of anyone condeming a handicap person because they are handicap? They can't help being handicap, that's the way they were born. People are the same way, God doesn't hate bad people for being bad, it's the realm which we were born into. What he "does" do is love on the broken mind so that he can heal it . . . the bad we see people do is merely the result of a broken alignment between spirit and soul . . . sometimes it's very trying to be around a 5 year old when they're not gettng their way, but you don't condemn them for being their age, you merely love on them and help them mature because that's what the Father does with us.
I think that is what Thinktank meant by "true enemies" - the carnal influences.
Quote from: thinktank on March 17, 2011, 08:01:41 PM
I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance, keeping all that anger and hatred inside is not good for a man. The good news in my opinion is that God promises vengeance for us, so we can rest knowing that our enemies will face the judgment of God. This I believe brings great comfort to people when they are suffering under evil people, I know from personal experience that when I directed my anger towards, the vengeance and justice of God, a great evil lifted off me. So instead of directing anger towards the evil people, instead direct the anger at inside of Gods vengeance, that he will satisfy our desire for revenge and that our true enemies will suffer the vengeance of almighty God. Hallelliwia
"I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance..."Now that alone is absurd to say on a forum that speaks of Jesus.
I think you all should give him some time to define "vengeance" and look at the context of his post before throwing your glares at him.
The song to match the title . . . .
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS
I DON'T NEED TO GO VERY FAR
TO SEE DEATH EVERYWHERE, IN THE LAND
I DON'T NEED TO TRY VERY HARD
TO HEAR PEOPLE CRY, AGAIN AND AGAIN
CAN YOU SEE ALL THE DESPAIR
PEOPLE GRASPING EMPTY AIR
IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE
IF THIS WHOLE WORLD COULD SEE THE LIGHT
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD TAKE
FOR THE WORLD, TO CALL ON HIS NAME
WOULD WE EVER WANT TO BE CHANGED
IF LUSTS OF OUR FLESH, REMAINED THE SAME
ONCE WE SEE PAST THE DOOM AND GLOOM
WE'D SEE HIS LOVE COME SHINING THROUGH
HE'S USING THE SIGNS WE SEE EVERYWHERE
TO LEAD THE WORLD INTO POWER THROUGH
PRAYER
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
CAN YOU HEAR THAT GLORY SOUND
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
CAN YOU SEE HIM NEAR YOU NOW
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
IN THIS WORLD YOUR KINGDOM COME
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
NOW'S THE TIME YOUR WILL BE DONE
EVERYBODY CALLIN' ON JESUS, JESUS
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 18, 2011, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: thinktank on March 17, 2011, 08:01:41 PM
I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance, keeping all that anger and hatred inside is not good for a man. The good news in my opinion is that God promises vengeance for us, so we can rest knowing that our enemies will face the judgment of God. This I believe brings great comfort to people when they are suffering under evil people, I know from personal experience that when I directed my anger towards, the vengeance and justice of God, a great evil lifted off me. So instead of directing anger towards the evil people, instead direct the anger at inside of Gods vengeance, that he will satisfy our desire for revenge and that our true enemies will suffer the vengeance of almighty God. Hallelliwia
"I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance..."
Now that alone is absurd to say on a forum that speaks of Jesus.
Really? I thought this place would be the perfect place to say that. There's little point in speaking grace, by showing me
none.
Quote from: Nathan on March 18, 2011, 04:10:29 AM
Wow . . . what part of unconditional love aren't you getting here .. .if he's asking us to turn the other cheek, you really think he's not going to do the same to our so called enemies? We're to love those that hate us . . .so that he can turn around and punish them???
I think what you're dealing with in this idea that it feels good to see God punishing our enemies is flesh and ego looking for someone to stroke it for them . . .I seriously don't think that's what God intends for us to expect of him at all. Pure love forgives even those who trespass against us. God doesn't ask me to do what he's not already done himself. If I"m to love my enemies it's saying God already does as well. When God judges, it's out of love, not vengeance. He as the authority to be a vengeful God, but what he's judging, again, is not the person, it's the carnality that the person is infuenced by.
Ever hear of anyone condeming a handicap person because they are handicap? They can't help being handicap, that's the way they were born. People are the same way, God doesn't hate bad people for being bad, it's the realm which we were born into. What he "does" do is love on the broken mind so that he can heal it . . . the bad we see people do is merely the result of a broken alignment between spirit and soul . . . sometimes it's very trying to be around a 5 year old when they're not gettng their way, but you don't condemn them for being their age, you merely love on them and help them mature because that's what the Father does with us.
God promises me vengeance and no man will take it from me for vengeance is mine sayeth the lord
Deuteronomy 32:43
Rejoice, you nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people.
Whether God break the bones of my enemies into a thousand pieces or salts them with fire, that's his business. My faith is, that He will take
perfect vengeance in a way that my carnality cannot be satisfied, for I don't know how to satisfy my vengeance via carnality and that is one reason why I had evil in me, but after giving vengeance to God, I can be at peace knowing that
however God does it, I will be satisifed, even if that means that there is no pain inflicted, as truth be told having my enemies to suffer pain, I don't think that will satisify, as I hate pain and I don't like people suffering at all, even monsters in films and psycho people, such as Jason in Halloween.
"I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance..." ThinkTank
Now that alone is absurd to say on a forum that speaks of Jesus.
Friend I find no love in that statement, wanting vengence cannot be good. however you want vengence. Vengence itself is contrary to Love.
Smug attitudes do not exude love as well. Lets remember our discussion on the plank within our own eye. :2c:
On a more positive note, some of the things Nathan speaks about is so foreign to me. But, some of it is starting to make sense and sink in. Jesus referred to us as sick...he came for the sick. Interesting choice of words. It is certainly food for thought.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 19, 2011, 06:00:20 AM
"I think it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance..." ThinkTank
Now that alone is absurd to say on a forum that speaks of Jesus.
Friend I find no love in that statement, wanting vengence cannot be good. however you want vengence. Vengence itself is contrary to Love.
I agree, Jesus said forgive your enemies, but you cut my quote short, you forgot to finish the sentence, and place
-keeping all that anger and hatred inside is not good for a man"
You cannot snip a piece of sentence out and use it to argue, that's the type of thing that manipilative critics do, when they try to discredit someone or take someones quote out of sentence. People who quote the bible do this all the time, snipping pieces out of chapters to try and prove their beliefs.
Had you kept the full sentence perhaps you would have understood me better. So is it in your opinion good for a man to keep anger inside him?. I guess your answer would be no. If Gods word tells us directly to give vengeance to God almighty, and you disaprove of this, then it seems your problem is with the scripture more than me.
If I give my vengeance to God almighty on a plate and say a great evil lifted off me, then how come you say I seek vengence? :dontknow:
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Look and see, Micah, Nathan and co a direct scripture which speaks exactly what I'm trying to convey
Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved,
avenge not yourselves, but rather give
place unto wrath: for it is written,
Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Romans 3
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say?
Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
I will retract the snipet that I quoted, still I do not see not agree with your thinking.
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
So I must ask what are YOU doing with the vengence that belongs to Him in the first place?
Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Yes vengence will arise in a man, but I do not see how it is "healthy and good."
I am a bit mindblown with the idea that he is not going to return physically but that his return will be (or is?) is us.
I'll add that to my ever-growing list of topics to explore. :bigGrin:
Thus the word "repent" G3340
metanoeō
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 19, 2011, 06:36:19 PM
I will retract the snipet that I quoted, still I do not see not agree with your thinking.
Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
So I must ask what are YOU doing with the vengence that belongs to Him in the first place?
Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Yes vengence will arise in a man, but I do not see how it is "healthy and good."
Thank you for retracting.
You asked what am I doing with the vengeance that belongs to Him in the first place?
I'm not sure what you mean by that as I have already explained that I have given that vengeance to Him. If however you are being critical and cold and think that at no point should I as a Christian ever have the feeling of vengeance in the first place, then maybe you lack experience in this area and have not experienced consistent attacks from the enemy, in that case I don't think you are qualified, as I have also seen your posts to Michelle and you seem to overlook her painful past, and lack dare I say patience, not in your whole being, only you know that, but only possibly in this regard.
I say it's healthy and good for a man to want vengeance because the only other possible reaction is to deny the feelings and cut them off, I don't think that in psychology that this is a healthy way to deal with the problem, I know this from personal experience. It might work for some people and it may help people to get by, but what I'm saying is that "pretending" to be ok and not dealing with the problem is not healthy and good, in other words supressing anger only builds it up. Forgiving the enemy is one option to get rid of the anger and this has worked for me on most things after praying about them, but when it comes to extreme things, forgiveness does not come easy at all, it is a never ending battle, countless years of prayer, but the scriptures say and do call for us to give vengeance to God and this has helped me much more than forgiveness. This is a spiritual battle, the devil is more affraid of vengeance of God than forgiveness and it helps remind dark forces, not to mess with Gods people, because every time they do evil, God promises to recompense. That to me means that
1. God values my right as a person in His image of great value
2. He will bring justice and will satisfy His people's hearts
It has nothing to do with what my carnal will desires, let's say for example my carnality desires to punch my enemies a thousand times, will God bring this to pass? It is
not the evil desires that God brings to pass, but satisifies our vengeance by healing the heart and removing ill feelings, he will do this as the scriptures says by bringing vengeance
through His perfected way,
not our way, which never satisfies in any case.
So let's say God way of vengeance to explain in simplest form possible is too simply to slap my enemy across the face once, will I be screaming is that it?. If I did say that then God did not fullfill his promise of repaying. His promise is to fullfill our hearts regardless of how He takes vengeance.
Peace through Jesus
Quote from: TT...it helps remind dark forces, not to mess with Gods people, because every time they do evil, God promises to recompense.
I agree with this. It just seems to work out that way.
Quote from: Miriam on March 19, 2011, 06:45:20 PM
I am a bit mindblown with the idea that he is not going to return physically but that his return will be (or is?) is us.
I still tend to believe it's both.
"you men of Galilee...this same Jesus will return just as you saw Him go away"...
I guess we'll "see", won't we? :laughing7:
He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go . .he as telling them . .specifically, that as "they" saw him go, the state that they say him go (for me, that's resurrected state, not flesh and blood state) that "they" would personally see him again . . .returing "to them". . . .there is no literal indication that he's telling them he'll come back to them . . and then two thousand years later come back to us .. . In fact, the whole last days mentality is based on assumptions and preconceived notions that what he's telling them is like a tongue and cheek "wink" in which everybody then supposedly knew it wasn't about "them" but it was about "us" . . .which is far fetched to say the least.
Or . . . . .
The fact that "we" don't think it happened the way "we" interpret it to be saying how it was going to happen, would then lead us to the conclusion that he "must" have meant it was going to happen at a later time . . .which "must" be yet in our future because in our eyes, it hasn't happened yet . . .but I disagree with both of those scenareos because both are based on natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation.
The people (generally speaking) that embrace that "Just as you saw him go . .. " passage are also the same that bring out the "as it was in the days of Noah" verse . . . they blend the two together to say the same thing they're trying to prove . .. but if you take a look at what happened in the days of Noah .. .the godly weren't the ones removed . . .they were the onlyl ones that remained. it was the ungodliness that was removed by the flood . . .Noah and his family were spared. Jesus was all about personal, intimate relatonship on an individual basis. He didn't come to the generation that he did to warn them about devastation that was coming, or redemption that was coming thousands of years later . . . his message was to them, for that day. What keeps it alive is the spiritual truth that is in the seed of the message . . .not the literal application of it.
Quote from: Nathan on March 21, 2011, 07:22:01 PM
He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go
Why speak in terms of "OR" instead of "AND"?
I believe he'll come back personally (Second Coming idea) simply because so many of his children want him to. God won't disappoint those who have waited for him, especially not with something so gloriously vapid as a fortune-cookie proverb type of return; "I have returned...as you, young padawan, The Force is strong with you!" --- me: Well, that's a bit of a bummer, I didn't want to see you through the veil of a thousand hypocrites we call the church, I wanted to see My God My King and Saviour face to face in the proverbial flesh.
If anything, he'll come back (in his due timing) personally, physically, and otherwise simply because I want him to, and it is a good thing for him to return when the timing is right.
Though, I do think that the "And" idea of his return both as a pure and perfect church, as well as himself is quite plausible. Afterall, Jesus is the head...it'd be gross for the body to return without its head. Jesus is a person too afterall, an individual in the body as well as the body. He'll come back as himself, as well as his church. There is no reason he shouldn't.
At the end of the day, if His Return is just another way of saying that its just the church, and not Jesus himself as Jesus the individual himself physically (what ever physically may imply) --- It is a poor thing at best, the church is a pale shadow of the Lord...I don't want the church I want its God, if the church comes the more the merrier and I suspect it will. But I suspect you get the idea. :thumbsup:
Both is fine, as long as it means that Jesus himself makes his appearance too, as himself as part of that "bothness".
Yeah I wanna see the head, not just the tail.
Nathan said that seeing him is based on natural reason. I think this is ilogical, as the natural mind does not believe in things that it cannot see. A person without faith cannot comprehend Jesus returning.
Personally I see both being true, that Jesus has already returned in His Spirit presence I AM, but has not returned in His soul until some date in the future, likely to be quite soon, by the scope of things, perhaps within the next 100 years, even.
I agree that sometimes new revelation is "instead of"; while sometimes it's and/along with, not just 'instead of'. I certainly could be wrong, we've all got opinions at this point. But I still believe He will appear both in us, and to us. Not in these current mortal bodies of flesh, but in raised immortal bodies as in which Jesus went away, and as Paul describes ("2 types of bodies - one sown corruptible, one sown incorruptible"). I don't see anything wrong (or unscriptural) about seeing Him, being "known as we are known". :2c:
I personally don't believe we're just going to be wispy and invisible. Apparently God, Who is Spirit can be seen, and Jesus was seen after the resurrection... Faith is believing without seeing, but then there's still "the substance of"... IMO, scripture is much too graphic from a visual perspective for there to not be something to that aspect/dimension.
Quote from: Nathan on March 21, 2011, 07:22:01 PM
He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go . .he as telling them . .specifically, that as "they" saw him go, the state that they say him go (for me, that's resurrected state, not flesh and blood state) that "they" would personally see him again . . .returing "to them". . . .there is no literal indication that he's telling them he'll come back to them . . and then two thousand years later come back to us .. . In fact, the whole last days mentality is based on assumptions and preconceived notions that what he's telling them is like a tongue and cheek "wink" in which everybody then supposedly knew it wasn't about "them" but it was about "us" . . .which is far fetched to say the least.
Or . . . . .
The fact that "we" don't think it happened the way "we" interpret it to be saying how it was going to happen, would then lead us to the conclusion that he "must" have meant it was going to happen at a later time . . .which "must" be yet in our future because in our eyes, it hasn't happened yet . . .but I disagree with both of those scenareos because both are based on natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation.
The people (generally speaking) that embrace that "Just as you saw him go . .. " passage are also the same that bring out the "as it was in the days of Noah" verse . . . they blend the two together to say the same thing they're trying to prove . .. but if you take a look at what happened in the days of Noah .. .the godly weren't the ones removed . . .they were the onlyl ones that remained. it was the ungodliness that was removed by the flood . . .Noah and his family were spared. Jesus was all about personal, intimate relatonship on an individual basis. He didn't come to the generation that he did to warn them about devastation that was coming, or redemption that was coming thousands of years later . . . his message was to them, for that day. What keeps it alive is the spiritual truth that is in the seed of the message . . .not the literal application of it.
Hi Nathan,
What if Christ did come back in the apostles day and will come again to accomplish and finish the all in all?
There are many scriptures that seem to indicate that Christ returned in 70AD. There are also scriptures that indicate that Christ will return at the end when all will be in all. So, what if there is another coming of Christ that we, {2000 years later} will witness? I see scriptures like (Rev. 21: 3-5) (Isaiah 25:7-8) (Isaiah 11:6-11) as pertaining to the time still before us.
I do believe that 70AD was the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of a new way of Christianity but I don't see that 70AD was the end of everything. I think if it was, we wouldn't be here in the flesh, if death is the last enemy to be destroyed and God will wipe away all tears. There is still too much crying in the world today.
CHB
I agree C. 70 AD was MAJOR!!!!! But yeah, I believe there's more to come. Some may call it multiple or further fulfillments.
In response to Nathan's OP I offer some thoughts I put out elswhere on tentmaker that here have been pieced together. Forgive me for not doing a better job. It's about 1 am here, an hour beyond my bedtime. Someday I hope to take the time (earlier in the day) to develop writings like this more completely. I repeatedly sense certain things need to be said. This is one of them.____________________________________________________
BEYOND TWO TREES
A similar image found many places in scripture concerns successive levels of holiness, of entrance into the Divine and stages of development. At the start of "In Beginning," or, "Genesis" there is in the world an Eden (Lit., "pleasure") land that has a garden sanctuary which at it's center has two trees. In the world there is an Israel land that has a Jerusalem city which has at it's heart a mountain (representing a kingdom) called Zion. Similar is the outer court (30 fold,) holy place (60 fold,) and the holy of holies (100 fold.) Just as there are two cherubim, a cherub and a cheruba, with the shekinah glory between them in the innermost of the temple so there are two trees in the midst of the sanctuary in Eden with a fountain of water between. Male humans (cherubs?) have an x and a y chromosome; as one tree is a duality, good and evil, so also of the two basic forces (not nuclear) one which encompasses light is electromagnetism having polarity, positive and negative. Females (cherubas?) have double y chromosomes, as one tree is a singularity: life, so also the other (non-nuclear) basic force is unitive: gravitation.
From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil many repudiate the evil from their God knowledge. How about the good? Would you walk into incorruptible immortality in the next half an hour if you knew how? Where is our freedom to will it or to choose it that we could demonstrate this aspect of the real nature of Christ to which we are connected? So, why don't we know how? Jesus has opened the door and no man can shut it. Others have entered into things pertaining to it and God is no respecter of persons. I can't at this moment, but in sample experiences, obtain the body of resurrected glory. I can't accuse God of unfairness. I just don't qualify. That is no different than qualifying to be slain by Him who both wounds and heals, kills and makes alive. Each of us walks around with a glory cloud by our head that we can reach up into and a sucking whirlpool at our feet that we can with one step fall into destruction. Don't imagine you can keep an insipid balance. God gives spirit things that push us farther than our own self control would let us go.
There are times when the sword of the Spirit cuts into the flesh to bring forth the certainty of absolute grace and grace alone. Then another time it may be we are incited to good works while it is yet day. The living and active word of God is to accomplish His purposes in achieving His goal of reproducing His Image and Likeness in us. What may be needed today is abandonment to God and His Sovereignty. Tomorrow it is our personal responsibility that is emphasized. It is a two-mouthed sword. The point is Jesus.
Of the two trees some propose not eating of the tree of good and evil and to choose life instead. Hence, we have also exercised ourselves to not think thoughts of duality, only one-ing awareness. In Psalm 63, having gone progressively out through the thirsty soul into the craving of the flesh, "In land arid and faint, without water," Elohim, His strength and glory, is envisioned in the Sanctuary. The place where David (Lit., "Beloved," [60 fold]) says, "In the shadow of your wings shall I be jubilant" would be under where the wings of the Cherubim "kiss" called the Mercy Throne. From there he expects those who would ruin his soul to be removed. (Grace, Greek, "charis" is "the result of being fulfilled," the result of the need having been met.) Mercy is "chesed," a desire to meet the need, meaning, "The ardor to fulfill whatever is lacking." It is God's covenental love in action. It is His throne upon which the Glory rests. Overcomers are there. A line in the Psalm (63) says, "Your Mercy (chesed) is better than life."
The reason she says, "our bed is green" (SS 1:16 ) is because they lie beneath the trees in the midst of the garden. "...the mature...because of habit, have faculties (senses) exercised toward discriminating beside good and evil." (Heb 5:14) Beside (the tree of) good and evil is (the tree of) life; but also there is a fountain, because the water that flows downhill, which divided into four heads of rivers, came forth from the midst of the holiest between the two trees flowing down the mountain (kingdom) at the center. This was as the glory cloud (feminine) between the two Cherubim. It is something "better than life."
The two trees are made things closest to the river flowing out of the innermost. Wherever the river flowed, everything lives. The Cherubim represent the sons of God in their priestly aspect which is how they rule. Priests are intercessors. They define the boundaries. By not guarding the holy places Adam was cast out and His ministry was exercised by Cherubim until the time appointed of the Father for the unveiling of the mature sons to reign. We are of a place beyond good and evil and better than life. The Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life, but to the Overcomer it is granted to eat of the tree of life, and we are eating of it. Father's Finishing work and our maturing causes us to emerge, displacing the cherubim. The Overcomer is granted to sit down in the Mercy Throne of the Father and the Lamb, the Throne between the two Cherubim.
Between the two trees, out of our innermost flows four rivers of living waters. Out of duality (knowledge of good and evil, polarized electromagnetic spectrum, my will/His will) and beyond singularity (life, gravitation, Sovereignty [He will, "...be nullifying all sovereignty" 1 Cor 15:24]) we enter into ecstatic union of the invisible God with His consort, the Shekinah Glory. (Christ is "the Image of the invisible God" Col 1:15.) "And they overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Rev 12:11) The Mercy Throne is beyond the duality of "my will and His will" and it is also better than a singular Sovereignty. There is an invitation going out to come into the feast of the Lamb's marriage. The animal aspect will be raised to partake of permanent life, the full placing of the physical into inheriting the authority of being born out of the house of God, to be exercised in the name of Jesus over all things.
We are the flesh of God in the earth. We are the bride that is the Glory of her husband. "They shall be...one shepherd." The two Cherubim shall become one, THE anointed cherub that covers. The first was removed that He might establish the second. The glory of the latter house is greater than the former. The Adam is superseded by the Christ. The son of man, the seed, is consummated in the manifestation of the Sons of God, the crop.
(Song of Songs 8:5) It is the "Manchild, Benjamin" who is born of the mother's travail under the apple/apricot (?) tree. This is the fruit of their union, Shalom and Shaloma, Christ and Christa. She is known, as is her beloved. They ask, "Who is this ascending from the wilderness, intimately leaning on her darling?" The beloved (translated: David) is bringing someone up out of the wilderness. Has He got someone else? He has leaning on Him the fruit of their union, who Father awakened under the tree, immediately taking him up as soon as he was born. They do not know him...yet...
---James Rohde
Quote from: jabcat on March 22, 2011, 12:06:41 AM
I personally don't believe we're just going to be wispy and invisible. Apparently God, Who is Spirit can be seen, and Jesus was seen after the resurrection... Faith is believing without seeing, but then there's still "the substance of"... IMO, scripture is much too graphic from a visual perspective for there to not be something to that aspect/dimension.
There are reasons a spirit can pass through a wall. One is because of existing in different dimensions. Another is because spirit is of more durable substance than the material of the wall. The carnal mind mistakenly thinks it perceives the opposite.
Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
I stumbled on this prayer a few years ago. It just came out of my mouth, Lord send me legions of your angels.
It worked. I have since prayed it for others, and seen it work again.
I am now praying it for the world. We need his help big time.
Jesus says in Mat 26 that he could request this, and he has given us his power of atty--whatever you ask for in my name...
To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.
Benjamin is the son of the right hand. It was Benjamin that Joseph longed for.
"Benjamin"
H1144
בּנימין
binyâmı̂yn
bin-yaw-mene'
From H1121 and H3225; son of (the) right hand; Binjamin, youngest son of Jacob; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory: - Benjamin.
26And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed themselves to him to the earth.
27And he asked them of their welfare, and said, Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spake? Is he yet alive?
28And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.
29And he lifted up his eyes, and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother's son, and said, Is this your younger brother, of whom ye spake unto me? And he said, God be gracious unto thee, my son.
30And Joseph made haste; for his bowels did yearn upon his brother: and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.
--Gen 43
Out of the tribe of Benjamin came Paul.
CHB
(Song of Songs 8:5) It is the "Manchild, Benjamin" who is born of the mother's travail under the apple/apricot (?) tree. This is the fruit of their union, Shalom and Shaloma, Christ and Christa. She is known, as is her beloved. They ask, "Who is this ascending from the wilderness, intimately leaning on her darling?" The beloved (translated: David) is bringing someone up out of the wilderness. Has He got someone else? He has leaning on Him the fruit of their union, who Father awakened under the tree, immediately taking him up as soon as he was born. They do not know him...yet..."
Could you expound on this a bit. I don't get the manchild bit. I follow on all of these illustrations. The two shall become one flesh, we are the bride of Christ, is the production of that union the manchild? which is us in our new state? the one annointed cherub? What is the "Manchild, Benjamin"?
Shalom and Shaloma? Christ and Christa? are we Christa? Shalom Father, Shaloma Shekina? Any scripture references for this?
Something I've been thinking about lately that seems to fit relates to the Bible in its original order (Askelm.com) The short version is the Bible should actually have 49 books.
22 OT (some books are combined, like the minor prophets, book of kingdoms [1+2 Sam, 1+2 Kings, Joshua, Judges])
5 gospels (acts)
22 NT (same thing some books combined)
The bible was designed with gospels as the apex or top of the mountain (where the living water flows, where the mercy seat sits) with the 22 OT as one side of the mountain, 22 NT as the other side. represented graphically like this /\
Also the four cherubim seen in Revelation represent each of the gospels Matthew=lion, Mark=ox, Luke=man, John=eagle. Each of those also represent an aspect of Jesus. The Acts of the Apostles is also a gospel representing us. The five books being one as is The Law, being the apex of creation.
If you also look at the 7 days the true pinnacle is the 4th day, when the sun and moon were created (son=Christ, moon=bride) Christ also came at the fourth day in history. The 1st day is the base of this mountain /\ represented by "In the beginning God". The 7th day is the base of the other side of the mountain represented by "God rested" or "in the end God".
After reading ReFormers post, now I look at the bottom of each side of the mountain as the 2 poles. 1st day= Genesis as the duality separating the light from the dark. The other pole being revelation being the oneness 7th day, all in all.
Also you mentioned electromagnetic radiation, there happens to be 7 colors in the visible spectrum roygbiv. electromagnetic spectrum is represented /\/\/. when you have all the colors together you have pure light. I link this in my mind with Dr. Martin's 7 stages of religion with each of the colors representing one of those stages, going with seeing through a glass darkly. Once all of the stages have been reached the 7th being the mystery, (which is the 2 shall become one flesh, 6 colors=the number of man + 1=Christ) you now have pure white light, and no longer see through a glass darkly. (the colored glass illustration came to me when I was at a hands on museum last weekend and they have a section on light and what happens with different colored glass, or on the opposite side if you shine light through a prism you have the 7 colors come out).
Now the electromagnetic spectrum represented by the 7 colors or the 7 stages of religion make up the left side of the mountain with the apex being the pure light which (the apex ) happens to be the 4th day when the sun and moon were created. The left side of the mountain is represented by the old testament, and religion with the apex of religion being the mystery, which is the unity of the gospels 4+1=5=true law. The right side of the mountain is represented by the New testament which is represented by revelation which has 7 trumpets, guess how many notes there are in the major key... 7... do, ra, mi, fa, sol, la, ti. The right side is representative of unity or relationship, all in all, the left side polarized, got separating light and dark, Israel from nations, 70 nations at babel. The right side is the bringing of those nations back into unity back to God all in all or in the end God.
One more interesting thing, last week my mom had a dream that she said she was putting on her wedding dress, and asked someone why, I'm already married, the person said we're going to meet Jesus in the air. As she was flying she started to have fear as in she was going to meet the living God. Then she saw the sun and the moon come crashing together and form on thing then explode into 4 and spread to all the earth.
I asked her if she had ever heard of the sun=Jesus, moon=bride. she said no, I'd never heard of it before coming to tentmaker either.
just to take those previous thoughts a little further:
there happens to be 7 components of the electromagnetic spectrum: radio, microwave, and infrared with visible in the 4th position, then ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma. The very apex of the spectrum if bent into /\ is the color green represents life
back to the OT, separation, light spectrum=visible=flesh=outward religion
NT, together, sound=invisible=spirit=breath
spirit + flesh= soul, the two shall become one 4+1=gospels=soul of bible
another thought (after watching Rob Bells everything is spiritual, and reformers post) the two poles represent newtonian and quantum physics.
gravity defines newtonian=oneness pole,
light with its photons and waves, the ability to be 2 things at once = quantum physics=duality pole