Hey again, guys! There's this person on YouTube, that helped to disprove the eternal torment doctrine, but I unfortunately believe he is going down the wrong path. He's now making videos titled "Bible miscopied", he then says that " the perfect word of God shouldn't have errors but the apostles don't report things exactly the same".
This video compares the Lord's prayer in Matthew 's and then Luke's account: https://youtu.be/F3H1IgzREfs
My opinion is this: this guy is basically nitpicking rephrases, word variations, thorough detail calling, as being some sort of "error" somewhere. To me, it's just the apostles recalling from their memory with the help of the Holy Spirit. The difference in writing doesn't change the message and actually makes it seem more credible and genuine. Why else would the Lord have multiple people write about the same event, if it was going to be written exactly the same? These videos could make a new born babe in the Lord, lose their way and I feel it needs to be commented on.
So, please weigh in with your comments. :dsunny:
IMO, too many people who "think outside the box" regarding theological things, such as UR, also "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Sort of like challenging or re-thinking some things in orthodoxy, also gives license to doubt and criticize the trustworthiness of scripture. I think they're wrong and going down a slippery slope and destructive path (2 Peter 3:16) - and honestly, due to the damage it can cause to the faith of some, they shouldn't speak of such things. If they have questions/doubts they/we can take it to the Lord in prayer and submit to Him. So I certainly agree with you!
At TM it's been such a bone of contention and turned into such mess in the past, we just say the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, are trustworthy and the basis for our discussion - as the default setting. A lot of UR (and other) believers don't like that and choose to not participate, but we'd rather attempt to stay grounded in the Word (Jesus as well as the Written). :)
I totally agree with you!! ...Since when don't eyewitness accounts differ in some details? And those details listed - yes, i heard there's a master list - of these 'errors' in the gospel testimonies, they are minor details. (they make a big deal of differences in lists/geneologies, but the lists may in liklihood be from the records of men.)
And what is assumed when witness accounts don't differ some on details? And they ignore how the gospels agree! Especially on major details.
And as you say - memory. Inspired by the Holy Spirit on what to write about and describe but not word for word dictation.
That adversary just works all angles doesn't he! For here we have a believer having been convinced of hell as being the MYTH it is, but falling prey to this!
I think you are
spot on! And said it perfectly! I pray he can hear it! Imagine not having the Word.. and teaching others not to have it too! :mshock:
And amen to brother Jabcat, who said it perfectly!! (while i was posting too)
Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2017, 05:25:46 AM
IMO, too many people who "think outside the box" regarding theological things, such as UR, also "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Sort of like challenging or re-thinking some things in orthodoxy, also gives license to doubt and criticize the trustworthiness of scripture. I think they're wrong and going down a slippery slope and destructive path (2 Peter 3:16) - and honestly, due to the damage it can cause to the faith of some, they shouldn't speak of such things. If they have questions/doubts they/we can take it to the Lord in prayer and submit to Him. So I certainly agree with you!
At TM it's been such a bone of contention and turned into such mess in the past, we just say the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, are trustworthy and the basis for our discussion - as the default setting. A lot of UR (and other) believers don't like that and choose to not participate, but we'd rather attempt to stay grounded in the Word (Jesus as well as the Written). :)
:iagree: :iagree: :dsunny:
:myahoo:
I am in total agreement with both of you! I did respond to one of his videos and his response was:
"I The bible is supposed to be telling me exactly what some one said WORD FOR WORD. We do not expect this of most people in life because most people are not writing a book that is supposed to be tottaly perfect and infallible. A perfect infallible book must never tell us some one said something if they did not say it. OR you can not call it infallible. Luke says Jesus said the word (Holy Spirit). In the same exact sentence, Matthew says Jesus said the words (good gifts) instead of the words (Holy Spirit). Jesus did not say both words so obviously someone is telling us Jesus said something eh did not say. Question-- If I tell you Jesus said the words (Holy Spirit) but Matthew says he did not say (Holy Spirit) in that sentence, I am telling you something that is not true, right? A)Yes B)No"
I really hope the Lord opens his eyes, and I will try to say more about his response later. :Pray:
I think "infallible" or inerrant is something the Bible never claims to be. The Bible is written by men, humans. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and there are many ever-unfolding spiritual truths in the Bible if it is read through that lens with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Also beneficial to understanding the Bible are things like studying the original languages, comparing translations, reading about the culture of the Hebrew and Greek people, Jewish idioms and communication styles etc.
God obviously allowed errors in the Bible for a reason. Not sure of the reason but He allows a lot of things right now on earth...for example He allows ET to be the predominant view for Christians, He allowed most people that listened to Jesus preaching 2000 years ago to not have "ears to hear" what he was actually saying. The truth, to most on this planet right now, is hidden from them either because they haven't heard the true gospel (have heard a counterfeit ET turn and burn story or haven't heard it at all in some areas of the world), or because their hearts are hardened and they don't have ears to hear and eyes to see (Paul and scales falling from his eyes when he finally believed). Maybe to fulfill the plan that there are to be firstfruits now and the rest at a later time. Any Christian who says that everyone on earth has gotten a fair shot at hearing the true gospel and believing in it is failing to look around in my opinion (and failing to understand that even the writers of the NT write of how this is occurring (gospel is veiled...vessels of wrath...etc).
From an Anglican, named Wright:
"A regular response to these problems is to say that the Bible is a repository of timeless truth. There are some senses in which that is true. But the sense in which it is normally meant is certainly not true. The whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is culturally conditioned. It is all written in the language of particular times, and evokes the cultures in which it came to birth. It seems, when we get close up to it, as though, if we grant for a moment that in some sense or other God has indeed inspired this book, he has not wanted to give us an abstract set of truths unrelated to space and time. He has wanted to give us something rather different, which is not (in our post-enlightenment world) nearly so easy to handle as such a set of truths might seem to be."
I love the Bible, there are so many layers to it and new understanding is gleaned each time I read it. I believe that it is from God when I am reading, but only because of the understanding given to me by the HS and studying a bit as mentioned above. I remember reading the Bible in the past and having it make no sense to me.
I liked this article about the Bible and if it is infallible:
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/does-it-claim-be-inerrant
So in summary--I believe the Bible is from God but needs to be properly translated, looked at through the lens of the Jewish people and culture at that time, and read with guidance from the Holy Spirit. I just don't think infalliable is something the Bible claims to be, or needs to be, in order to be from God.
Of course the Bible is scorned and misunderstood-- so was Jesus.
As stated earlier, the trustworthiness of scripture - accurately translated and Spirit revealed - is not a matter of debate at TM. Trustworthiness of "true" scripture is the default setting and discussion is within that vein.
The second article from bibleinfo.com seems good, except I disagree that God gave errors in the original message of scripture. The oldest manuscripts available agree in high 90's % of the time, and most if not all of that is transcribing (human) errors. And those aren't the originals.
I think what Wright wrote in the other part may have some application to translations, but not to the core message and intent of scripture itself. There are transcription and translation errors in modern published versions we have available, but there is no proof that the things God originally spoke have any error whatsoever. God can create perfection through imperfect beings. I believe it's important to dig out and have revealed the truth of the written Word, and that within all available - somewhere hidden like gold nuggets - are absolute truths of God. IMO, to say otherwise is going down that slippery slope that finds itself in relativism, damage to faith, and unbelief to many.
I wrote somewhere in the past that in all Jesus said, did, and Is (the Word become flesh), all God does, reveals, performs, and all the scriptures report; therein lies the Word of God. We have to get past the humanity of reporting, recording, and understanding to truly see God's Word. But It's there. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter". Proverbs 25:2
There are places where the scriptures (not any one translation) validates themselves as truth. The things these scriptures say reinforce my thought that somewhere, within all we have, and especially as originally spoken by the Holy Spirit, is the true written Word.
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable. 2 Peter 1:19
No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:20–21
All Scripture is God-breathed 2 Timothy 3:16–17
God's Word is "perfect, refreshing the soul" Psalm 19:7
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17
Scripture claims complete (as opposed to partial) perfection in Psalm 12:6, Psalm 19:7, Proverbs 30:5
Many places in the NT validate the OT as truth. In the NT, Peter equates NT writing as scripture, "equal" to the OT - Peter recognized the writings of the Apostle Paul as Scripture; "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction" 2 Peter 3:15,16
Jabcat...
When I said the Bible contains errors I am talking about the list of discrepancies that the YouTube person is referring to. Maybe they are translation errors. They are all small things that non Christians throw on our faces to say that the whole book is void.
My post was not meant to go against TM policies. I said I believe that the Bible is from God and inspired by the Holy Spirit and it is my go-to, along with prayer and fellowship and things like that, for understanding God. No argument there.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: MinakoChan on March 05, 2017, 08:45:37 AM
I am in total agreement with both of you! I did respond to one of his videos and his response was:
"I The bible is supposed to be telling me exactly what some one said WORD FOR WORD. We do not expect this of most people in life because most people are not writing a book that is supposed to be tottaly perfect and infallible. A perfect infallible book must never tell us some one said something if they did not say it. OR you can not call it infallible. Luke says Jesus said the word (Holy Spirit). In the same exact sentence, Matthew says Jesus said the words (good gifts) instead of the words (Holy Spirit). Jesus did not say both words so obviously someone is telling us Jesus said something eh did not say. Question-- If I tell you Jesus said the words (Holy Spirit) but Matthew says he did not say (Holy Spirit) in that sentence, I am telling you something that is not true, right? A)Yes B)No"
I really hope the Lord opens his eyes, and I will try to say more about his response later. :Pray:
Good grief! I just hate such an attitude.. But it points out the flaw - in reasoning.. the view that the Bible was dictated word for word.. where does it say that? It says "inspired by God".. Men "carried along by the Spirit" as to what to write and say..
How can someone not realize the four gospels are testimony accounts written 30 + or so years
after the events..What's amazing, and PROVES they were "inspired by God" in their sharing, is how MUCH the testimonies agree! Silly humans.. err in SO many ways.. the person could be a troll too.. or not.. I think I'll follow the link you left.
:thumbsup: to you for trying to reason with him.. which is so seldom successful! :mshock:
P.S. I think he's a troll.. or that is, is against the bible.. and God of the bible.. just my impression.. after just parts of two of his videos.. :Peace2:
:OhNo: maybe not.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JLLu6GJrs .. split personality? (kidding..)
The problem in my opinion is not disbelieving that scripture is inerrant or even denying that it is infallible. The problem is when people deny things for the wrong reasons. I just think people can be to hasty or just plain condescending(to the writers) when denying parts(assuming people are just ignorant ancient people whenever they say something inconvenient, difficult, or strange). I think it comes down to whether a person is seeking the truth or something else.
I think in many cases it can be healthier and more faithful to God to deny inerrancy and or infallibility if the alternative is to believe in dangerously false misinterpretations. I recall a "christian" defending abortion on the grounds that he didn't think God gave/gives a sh*t about human life(he said something like that I think) because of his interpretations of the OT(I hesitate to call him a christian because he appeared to believe in some idol/imposter that is utterly opposite to God). It would have been better for him to say "Those parts of the Bible are in error." than to believe in slanderous interpretations.
I like this from George Macdonald.
"Let no one persuade thee that there is in him a little darkness, because of something he has said which his creature interprets into darkness. The interpretation is the work of the enemy--a handful of tares of darkness sown in the light. Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another calls it light, while it looks to thee dark. Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it. But, of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing as interpreted must be right because God does it, is of the devil. Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness. Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as his what thou canst see only as darkness. It is impossible thou art seeing a true, a real thing--seeing it as it is, I mean--if it looks to thee darkness. But let thy words be few, lest thou say with thy tongue what thou wilt afterward repent with thy heart. Above all things believe in the light, that it is what thou callest light, though the darkness in thee may give thee cause at a time to doubt whether thou art verily seeing the light."
When reading some of the stuff that seems unchristlike about God(and therefore unGodly), I assume I am reading it wrong, I am not getting the full story, or that things are otherwise not as they seem. Unfortunately, many people just seemingly deny things because it is inconvenient for them, calls out the wrongdoing or flaws of them or those they care for, or because it seems "irrational" or something. Why should they do that? We ought to be happy that the Bible speaks of such high standards. ESPECIALLY, when it condemns the actions of us or those we care for. Do you know what that means? It means there is room for refinement, that God will refine us, and that things will get much better for us when our serious flaws have been dealt with. It is great news for those struggling with weaknesses and evil even if it is a little scary(that we must inevitably face our problems, let go of evil attachments, etc)! The fact that God is so concerned about our refinement is somehow scary(not because of distrust but because major refinement is often very uncomfortable) and very comforting at the same time! I often find myself praying something along the lines of "God, please hurry up and refine this foolishness(some specific foolishness) out of me!... No, wait! I don't know if I am ready to face that yet!... Ok, just do whatever you think is best(I know you will do what is best)." So impatience and zeal, chickening out, and then just taking comfort that God knows what to do. :winkgrin:
I think I will share that in another post later. :)
Quote from DanielB:
" Do you know what that means? It means there is room for refinement, that God will refine us, and that things will get much better for us when our serious flaws have been dealt with. It is great news for those struggling with weaknesses and evil even if it is a little scary(that we must inevitably face our problems, let go of evil attachments, etc)! The fact that God is so concerned about our refinement is somehow scary(not because of distrust but because major refinement is often very uncomfortable) and very comforting at the same time! I often find myself praying something along the lines of "God, please hurry up and refine this foolishness(some specific foolishness) out of me!... No, wait! I don't know if I am ready to face that yet!... Ok, just do whatever you think is best(I know you will do what is best)." So impatience and zeal, chickening out, and then just taking comfort that God knows what to do. :winkgrin: "
So true! And I love the last bit--I am the same way!