Conviction, Wink and a Smile, or What?

[jabcat]

In another thread or two, there have been brief discussions about this, thought I'd consolidate some thoughts here.

Some of the things that have been said;

unbelievers are convicted by the Holy Spirit to confess and repent of their sins. 

Believers;

are not to confess, as upon new birth, all past and future sins are forgiven;

"such were some of you, but now you are washed";

"we're a child of God, accepted in the Beloved - live like it!";

don't even have sin held to our account – "It's no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me";  "I will remember their sin no more";


OK, taking all that above at face value, what do you think this means? 

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute?  May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18  Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.  I Corinthians 6

If a believer commits the above-mentioned sexual immorality, 1) Paul (God) calls it sin.  2)  However, is it not sin against God, but rather the "sin against your body" is somehow different?  I.e, offending your own consciense, damaging your own relationships, etc., but God's not "applying to your account"? 

Do you think God winks, smiles, and looks the other way?

Or do you think He makes us aware of the sin, and then urges us (without convicting) toward greater obedience?

Does He bless us just the same, or are there consequences?  If so, what?


In summary, if we say God doesn't convict a believer of sin, what do you think is His view and reaction when a believer does sin -  including ongoing adultery, fornication (hetero or same sex)?

Many believers are under the assumption that the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins (as believers) and requires our confession and request for forgiveness – or else, there will be consequences (punishment/correction, lack of blessings – I've even heard early death, i.e., "hand them over to Satan for destruction of the flesh....").  Yet others say believers can't sin, so just rejoice.

Thoughts?

[thinktank]

Perhaps it is related to the scripture that says "there is a sin unto death"


There seems to be the warning that fornication sins, damage and weaken the body an offend the holy spirit living within.

Only problem is, nobody knows what fornication means  :laughing7:

[sheila]

 WELL, IT IS SPIRITUAL ADULTERY FOR US TO HAVE SIN IN OUR FLESH..  ALL IN aDAM HAS BEEN CAUGHT IN THE ACT

  MAN WAS CREATED FOR GOD'S hOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN[HE WHO HAS THE LEGAL RIGHT]. THE MAN OF SIN THAT IS IN US..IS AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN BECAUSE

OF IT.

[shawn]

This is something I have struggled with for many years.  Being a man with a significant history of addiction and vice, these have not gone away over night.  So when I see that old man in that old flesh rise up again I am dismayed.  Sexual sin is just too easy to get wrapped up in.  It's all over TV, magazines, and the internet is the devil's playground.  For me, this has been a struggle since I was 12 y/o and I have only seen some relief from it.  With other vices, I have seen absolute relief.  But, for whatever reason keeping my eyes pure has been tough.

How does God approach it?  Should we fear punishment?  Should we confess?  I honestly don't know.  Why has God given me complete relief from some sin and not others?  Is this a moral failing?  Am I just a bad person?  With all the blessings God has bestowed to my life, how could I look at things I shouldn't?  Something is terribly wrong with me.

All these thoughts can overwhelm me and seperate me from relationship from God.  We can be just abusive to ourselves with our thoughts.  But check this...Paul himself talks about this struggle within his own flesh.  He also gives us the solution.  For me knowing the details is far less important than the solution.

Romans 7 The Message says it so well

14-16I can anticipate the response that is coming: "I know that all God's commands are spiritual, but I'm not. Isn't this also your experience?" Yes. I'm full of myself—after all, I've spent a long time in sin's prison. What I don't understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. So if I can't be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God's command is necessary.

17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can't keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don't have what it takes. I can will it, but I can't do it. I decide to do good, but I don't really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don't result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.

21-23It happens so regularly that it's predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God's commands, but it's pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge.

24I've tried everything and nothing helps. I'm at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn't that the real question?

25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.

I

[shawn]

I get emotional just about everytime I read that.  I delight in God's Law, the study of his Holy Scriptures, and bask in relationship with my Maker.  He is my ONLY source of joy.  Yet I still sin and it's often deliberate, compulsive and destructive.  I want to be free of it more than I can explain. 

So, am I to white knuckle up some more self restraint?  Should I await God's hand of discipline to correct?  I can tell you what I have done.  I have laid it at the feet of Christ.  My flesh has been broken over God's Law.  All I can do is focus on Christ, and await my delivery.  And I believe with all my heart it's coming.  He has been faithful.  I await with eager anticipation.  While I don't believe my sin is counted against me, east west gone...I want relief from this tyrant.  And I believe God will deliver just that.  Concentrating on myself, abusing myself, worrying about punishment are not productive for my spiritual development.  Faith in Jesus, and the sancitifying power of the Holy Spirit is...and that is where I choose to live today.
 

[sheila]

 Beautiful testimony Shawn

    await our delivery from this body undergoing this death........with you all the way....and I tell you...our deliverance draws nigh

[shawn]

Beautiful testimony Shawn

    await our delivery from this body undergoing this death........with you all the way....and I tell you...our deliverance draws nigh

Amen Sheila, I believe our day is coming soon.

[jabcat]

very good.   my middle name is struggle.  thanks for the good word.

[jabcat]

8..Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness."  2 Cor. 12

[eaglesway]

    Confession is a part of the believers daily living. Altho all the sins of all the world have been covered by the blood of Jesus, it is confession, among other things that avails the believer of the efficacy of the blood. This exit from darkness and entrance into transparency is an ongoing experience. "if you find a brother in a fault, go to him in a spirit of meekness considering your own selves, lest you be taken, if he hears you you have won your brother". You will kno you have won him when he says, yes, I see it, i was wrong, and I will make it right".  Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
     Why do we pray when evreything is ours in Christ. Why do we forgive if everyones sins are already forgiven? It is about withdrawal. You may have a billion dollars in the bank, but you have to write a check to get it out. You could walk around all day saying, "I have a billion dollars" and it would be true but you can't experience the benefit unless you write a check or make a withdrawal. Living in the hypothesis\theory is fun and even interesting, but learning to withdraw the benefits of salvation is the test of discipleship.

[jabcat]

    Confession is a part of the believers daily living. Altho all the sins of all the world have been covered by the blood of Jesus, it is confession, among other things that avails the believer of the efficacy of the blood. This exit from darkness and entrance into transparency is an ongoing experience. "if you find a brother in a fault, go to him in a spirit of meekness considering your own selves, lest you be taken, if he hears you you have won your brother". You will kno you have won him when he says, yes, I see it, i was wrong, and I will make it right".  Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
     Why do we pray when evreything is ours in Christ. Why do we forgive if everyones sins are already forgiven? It is about withdrawal. You may have a billion dollars in the bank, but you have to write a check to get it out. You could walk around all day saying, "I have a billion dollars" and it would be true but you can't experience the benefit unless you write a check or make a withdrawal. Living in the hypothesis\theory is fun and even interesting, but learning to withdraw the benefits of salvation is the test of discipleship.

I'm glad you said this.  I am still feeling very led to just simply acknowledge (confess) my sins (in my heart/thoughts), and I feel forgiveness/"refreshed" fellowship.

It's been said that nowhere in the NT are believers told to confess their sins.     I woke up this morning and the scripture came to me, "....forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".   

Blessings, James.

[eaglesway]

I'm glad you said this.  I am still feeling very led to just simply acknowledge (confess) my sins (in my heart/thoughts), and I feel forgiveness/"refreshed" fellowship.

It's been said that nowhere in the NT are believers told to confess their sins.     I woke up this morning and the scripture came to me, "....forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".   

Blessings, James.

Yea James, that's perfect, I think it is just that simple and freely given in the life of a believer who is in right relationship(in the yoke), like taking a breath.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Then I think God also warns us when we get careless and draw to near the edge of the pit.

James 3:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

There is no "upbraiding" with this forgiveness, it is freely given and it heals the soul and the body

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Yet, if we do not abide in the vine, we can be withered as a branch and dried up, so most of us have times when we need to repent- let the light shine through our darkness, bring our darkness to the light so it can be transformed into light.

Rev 2:21and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her whoredom, and she did not reform; 22 lo, I will cast her into a couch, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation -- if they may not repent of their works,  23 and her children I will kill in death, and know shall all the assemblies that I am he who is searching reins and hearts; and I will give to you -- to each -- according to your works.

There is no doubt that these verses are written to believers. I am the righteousness of God in Christ objectively, but in order to experience that subjectively I have to "exercise according to godliness"- in addition to believing it ;o) Therfore while it is still called to "Today" exhort one another to love and good deeds!

[gregoryfl]

I am enjoying the various responses here. :) Something to keep in mind that has helped me come to grips with what John wrote is to see the poetry in what he writes. Note the parallellisms here:

(1John 1:6 [WEB])
If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don't tell the truth.

(1John 1:7 [WEB])
If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

(1John 1:8 [WEB])
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1John 1:9 [WEB])
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1John 1:10 [WEB])
If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

All of these I believe must be taken into account as a unit, not separating verse 9 by itself from the rest. As you look at each of these statements individually, ask this question concerning each one:

Does walking in darkness while claiming fellowship with him prove they are liers? Or does walking in darkness while claiming fellowship with him cause them to lie?

Does walking in the light prove we have fellowship with him and cleansing of sin? Or does walking in the light cause us to have fellowship with him and cleansing of sin?

Does saying one has no sin prove that one is deceived and does not have the truth in them? Or does saying one has no sin cause them to be deceived and the truth not to be in them?

Does saying we haven't sinned prove that his word is not in us? Or does saying we haven't sinned cause the truth not to be in us?

The difference with each of these is the difference between the action seen being a proof of something already existing, as opposed to an action being seen that makes something happen. I see it as the former. In other words:

Someone is already a liar, and it is proven by walking in darkness while claiming fellowship with him.

Someone is already in fellowship with him and is cleansed from sin, and it is proven by their walking in the light.

Someone is already deceived and does not have the truth, and it is proven by their claim to have no sin.

Someone is already without his word in them, and it is proven by their claim to have never sinned.

If the above be true, then we do not confess sin TO CAUSE God to forgive us, but rather we have already been forgiven and cleansed, and it is proven by our agreeing with him concerning our sins.

John, being a semitic thinker, strung these phrases together to convey that single principle, to convince belivers of what is true about them, and to expose the lies of those who do not believe, in both cases using the principle "the proofs in the pudding."

Ron

[eaglesway]

Ron,

Loved that breakdown of those verses- very edifying. I agree, confession does not cause God to forgive us, it simply mends the breach so the love that is already there can flow unimpeded by the stumbling block- which is in our consciousness. However, it seems there is a level of breach which can require a certain responsiveness from us in this mortal plain in order to restore fulness in the relationship from God, sort of like the prodigal son I think. The Father loved him and welcomed him from afar in His heart before the prodigal ever got there. But he(the son) had to go thru a certain process to get back in a right mind- a broken and a contrite heart. There is also the matter of few stripes and many. John alludes to this when he speaks about sin not unto death and sin unto death(requirig different levels of response mutually from God and man). Jesus, while always affirming the love of God for all, warns repeatedly against inaction and lack of vigilance. "Watch ye and pray, that you enter not into temptation". Jesus says to one group of believers, "Except you repent I will remove your lampstand from its place". To another, "Except you repent I will throw you with her into a bed of tribulation". The idea that all can be fulfilled in the abstract, objectively, because of the ultimate declaration of the reconciliation of all and the efficacy of the blood of the cross, IMO, an error. The subjective experience of the disciple involves correction and chastisement as well as encouragement and nurture. IMO It is the only pathway to sonship.   "He learned obedience through the things that he sufferred"-  and so do we :o)

[shawn]

very good.   my middle name is struggle.  thanks for the good word.

I think more believers struggle than those who admit it.  For whatever reason, some believers have a hard time confessing their sins to each other.  I remember how hard it was for me to speak about my sin and character defects to people when I first entered into sobriety.  But, I do remember how healing it was to openly speak about it.  It doesn't mean we should shout them from the rooftops.  But, we should have believers we can openly speak to about our struggles.

If you are anything like myself, when you sin you find yourself in a sick cycle...like going from grace to law.  Not, that we do in God's eyes but I tend to step back into the law, and thinking lawful thoughts.  Why?  Because I still don't completely get it.  It's hard for me to fathom the strength of the blood of Christ.  It's hard for me not to focus on myself.  But, what I have noticed is that my greatest times of growth seem to happen, after I'm broken and have a full knowledge of my inadequacy to "conquer" sin.  In those times of weakness, God is made strong in my life and the power of the Holy Spirit enables true change.  Not white knuckle self control, but a change within my heart and desires.

[jabcat]

Exactly.  One time I wrote a song based on that despair -

the first few lines were,

"How many times can I come here
with decisions that have to be made
And how many times after arriving
can I make the wrong one again"....

it ends with  "...Your grace is sufficient for me"

Blessings, James.

[eaglesway]

Yea Shawn, I agree very much with your post. I think its a careful thing, and there isnt much true friendship around the "church" these days. Where the law is, friendship dies and grace and the spirit of mercy and counsel are kept out. I think the whole thing is based around friendship, "I call you friends". Our joy could be so full, if only :o). If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea(oneness, union, communion) and the blood of Jesus cleanes us from all sin... 1 John

This oneness is not a religious agreement between strangers, it is an intimate, joyful, compassionate union between friends.

[thinktank]

very good.   my middle name is struggle.  thanks for the good word.

I think more believers struggle than those who admit it.  For whatever reason, some believers have a hard time confessing their sins to each other.  I remember how hard it was for me to speak about my sin and character defects to people when I first entered into sobriety.  But, I do remember how healing it was to openly speak about it.  It doesn't mean we should shout them from the rooftops.  But, we should have believers we can openly speak to about our struggles.

If you are anything like myself, when you sin you find yourself in a sick cycle...like going from grace to law.  Not, that we do in God's eyes but I tend to step back into the law, and thinking lawful thoughts.  Why?  Because I still don't completely get it.  It's hard for me to fathom the strength of the blood of Christ.  It's hard for me not to focus on myself.  But, what I have noticed is that my greatest times of growth seem to happen, after I'm broken and have a full knowledge of my inadequacy to "conquer" sin.  In those times of weakness, God is made strong in my life and the power of the Holy Spirit enables true change.  Not white knuckle self control, but a change within my heart and desires.

Excellent posts shawn  :thumbsup:

I agree it is tough to find fellows that you can talk to about sin. Especially if the person has a reputation e.g pastors.

It must be tough for some pastors, could explain why these days there are countless big name pastors/preachers falling from grace, no friends to talk too - living a double life - get caught, then exposed, ministry suffers and pastor.


I also notice a growing number of sites, exposing pastors for any sins etc. I;m not sure I believe in these practices, as often the website draws attention to specks in the pastors eye and tries to turn limping sick sheep into a wolf.


Or perhaps it is simply Gods judgment, exposing the wolves  :dontknow: hard to tell what's going on at times.