God help us. Praise God for the message the gentleman "rebutting" the "pastor" shares. Thank you Jesus that Your light still shines in the darkness - and that there are still those who will take a stand and not bow down to Baal.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4260672/church-tries-to-be-more-inclusive?playlist_id=86912
:cloud9: There's a lot of people out there who wish the cross would disappear.....man is in bondage to the fear of death (dying to self) all of his days. Blessings...
Pure dhimmi behavior...
The name of that baallaha church sounds like a stock exchange.
C3 Exchange removes cross gallery (6 photos)
SPRING LAKE — A prominent Spring Lake church removed its cross Tuesday and has changed its name as part of a series of moves intended to make it more inclusive
C3Exchange, 225 E. Exchange, Spring Lake, was formerly known as Christ Community Church. The Rev. Ian Lawton, the church's pastor, said the name change and removing the cross were designed to reflect the church's diverse members.
"Our community has been a really open-minded community for some years now," he said. "We've had a number of Muslim people, Jewish people, Buddhists, atheists. ... We're catching up (to) ourselves."
C3Exchange will hold a public meeting to address questions about the changes at 7 p.m. Thursday at Grand Haven Community Center, 421 Columbus.
"Nothing's going to be expected of anyone" who attends, Lawton said. "You don't have to sign up for anything. It should be a good, lively evening."
Lawton said the church decided to change its name about a year ago and began taking ideas from members. He said the new name was chosen because the church is on Exchange Street, and "our community is a place where people can come to exchange ideas."
He said the church is considering painting a heart, a globe and the word "exchange" on its exterior wall on the side where the cross stood, to symbolize "one love" for "all people."
C3 Exchange takes down cross
Lawton said he expects signs reflecting the new name will be up in about two weeks, and the outside wall facing East Savidge Street will be painted with new symbols in the next six months.
"We honor the cross, but the cross is just one symbol of our community," Lawton said.
Lawton gave a sermon March 21 likening using the cross as a symbol of Christ's life to using a bullet to remember Martin Luther King Jr. He said that opinion is his and not the church's.
"That particular talk traveled the world," he said of the mostly positive feedback he received. "The cross has become a negative symbol for a lot of people."
The church's cross may be relocated to International Aid Inc., a Christian mission and disaster relief organization, at 17011 Hickory, Spring Lake Township. David Wisen, CEO of International Aid, said he will display the cross outside if zoning regulations allow, or will give it to another group that can display it.
"We believe the cornerstone of our faith is ... what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross," Wisen said.
Lawton said most feedback the church has received has been positive. He said some people had not come to the church in the past because they had thought it was a traditional congregation, and others were disappointed by what they found when they came expecting a traditional service.
"I think mainly people are pleased to have the clarity," he said. "If there's any angry feedback, no one's said anything to me."
Lawton said C3Exhange will also begin "dechurching" the building's interior over the next year, replacing banners and rearranging the building's layout.
"We want to make the whole experience from the moment people walk in the church ... to match our inclusive identity," he said. "We're not trying to change anyone, because we say, 'Come as you are.'"
Lawton said C3Exchange does not mean to criticize or mock Christianity.
"We're not any threat to the other churches," Lawton said. "We want (other churches) to do well, but we're trying to provide an alternative."
Yes. :upset:
The "pastor" said something about it being a place people can "practice being human". Is that the goal of worship and following Jesus, Who said "take up your cross...."?!
Personally I think the cross isn't the symbol of Christianity.
("take up your cross....") can also be translated as staff.
Regardless if I'm rigt or wrong about the above I strongly oppose the reason for removing the cross.
Because a muslim attends to that church the cross needs to be removed?
Is a muslim in a Christian church a muslim?
Maybe the "pastor" should paint Mammon on his "church".
I agree. BTW, what does TCB say about "take up your cross"? (mine's in my car and I'm being lazy :bigGrin:). I know they often if not always use "stake" rather than cross...
Stake.
What do you think is the true symbol of Christianity?
Well, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure. If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.
I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand, etc. :dontknow:). I wonder if in the scriptures there is any indication of what God would use to symbolize true belief on Him? Love? ("by this they'll know you're my disciples, if you have love for one another..."). But then that's not really a symbol, but a "sign"/evidence...I really don't think a :HeartThrob: is a universal Christian symbol.
This is interesting; [Quick Summary - JW's believe the translation is "stake", and The Christian Bible also translates as such. The word in the Greek though, can also mean a stake with a cross beam, in other words, a cross. There is also fairly recent archeological evidence that the Romans in fact did use a cross in their crucifixions...more info in following post]
Jehovah Witnesses And The Symbol Of The Cross
by Mark McFall
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society teaches that the cross is not a valid Christian symbol and that Jesus did not die on a cross but a "torture stake." I expect that many of you reading this article have encounter such an assertions made by a Witnesses standing at your door. The question is, how do you respond to such a claim?
The first step in understanding why this statement is made is to know that every where your Bible uses the word "cross," their Bible uses the word "stake." To confirm their position they will use partial quotes and references from scholars that seem to back up their claim that the Greek word stauros in the New Testament means "stake" or "pole" instead of its true meaning "cross." They also will say, "stauros" in both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a "cross" made of two timbers, but instead it carries the notion of only an upright stake, a pale, pile, or pole.1
When the Greek lexicons are checked, however, one finds this is not the case. Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament states: "...a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part, so that it was shaped like a T or thus +2. Let's look at a few more Lexicon entries for "cross" (Stauros):
Friberg AGNT Lexicon:
"Stauros" lit. cross, an instrument of capital punishment, an upright pointed stake, oft. w. a crossbeam above it, or intersected by a crossbeam3.
Louw-Nida Lexicon:
["Stauros"] a pole stuck into the ground in an upright position with a crosspiece attached to its upper part so that it was shaped like a 'cross.'.....reference is probably to the crosspiece of the cross, which normally would have been carried by a man condemned to die4.
Barclay Newman Greek Dictionary and Thayer's Lexicon both read simply: "Stauros" Cross5, 6.
The Watchtower Society not only claims that Christ did not die on a cross, they further state that there is no evidence that a cross with a crossbeam was ever even used by Romans during the first century. They claim the stake was "the then customary usage of this means of execution in the Orient."7 They maintain, "The evidence is, therefore, completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at right angles...The passing of time and further archaeological discoveries will be certain to prove its [torture stake] correctness."8 This last quote that I have underlined was first published in 1969. In 1968, perhaps at the same time the claim was being written, a discovery was made in a dig in Jerusalem that challenges the Watchtower's argument. This was so devastating to their position, that in the later 1985 edition of the same appendix of the Kingdom Interlinear, the Society discontinued the claim that archaeology would vindicate their claim.
Jesus said to take up our cross and follow him though, not take up our stake, unless there are translation issues. :2c:
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2010, 01:22:14 AM
Jesus said to take up our cross and follow him though, not take up our stake, unless there are translation issues. :2c:
imo there are translation issues.
From strong:
4716 stauro,j stauros {stow-ros'}
Meaning: 1) an upright stake, esp. a pointed one 2) a cross 2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves 2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
I was thinking about this Tony. I'm thinking a cross might actually technically qualify as a stake. So even IF stake was the most literal translation, maybe a cross could still be a form of that...a stake with a cross beam on it.
Sort of like a car or a truck is an automobile.. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2010, 11:30:33 PM
Well, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure. If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.
I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand, etc. :dontknow:). I wonder if in the scriptures there is any indication of what God would use to symbolize true belief on Him? Love? ("by this they'll know you're my disciples, if you have love for one another..."). But then that's not really a symbol, but a "sign"/evidence...I really don't think a :HeartThrob: is a universal Christian symbol.
I think a candlestick is the symbol?
About cross: yes and no. Read reply #19 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6276.0)
According to Jesus both his hands were pierced, so there must be a section where his hands were nailed into, and with just one pole piece, there would be no place to put his hands. :2c:
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2010, 05:37:01 PM
According to Jesus both his hands were pierced, so there must be a section where his hands were nailed into, and with just one pole piece, there would be no place to put his hands. :2c:
That's a wrong conclusion.
Both his feet were pierced too. There was a crucifixion method on a pole. Not often used because the victim did't suffer long enough that way.
Anyway read the post just above yours.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dTSEBZ7tOe0/SJsJlaPhekI/AAAAAAAAARM/tg6Fjcdc8n8/s320/WTWhatDoesBiblep52.JPG)
Never thought of that, thanks for the pic.
It got me thinking though about Moses staff, for his staff was referenced about concerning Jesus. I am going to have to re read it.
My thinking is a staff is like a pole :2c:
http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/08/was-jesus-executed-on-cross-or-stake-3c.html
My answer to the cross debate is the same answer I give for the removal of prayer, should this be where the Lord is bringing us, the country, this world... let us rejoice. I dont need permission to pray, in fact no one but God has to know I pray when I pray. So it is with the cross, has this tree, cross, stake become so the symbol, perhaps even an idol to some, that the believer, saints and soon manifested sons, must stand and fight for the literal emblem if how we walk in the Spirit?
"This is God's way of life; through trial, suffering, corruption and death; and the symbol of this way is the Cross. To "bear the cross" is to follow Christ's footsteps in this way of life through death, "knowing the fellowship of his sufferings" and being "made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10), "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body" (Rom. 8:11). Our various trials, afflictions, persecutions, etc.., are not so many crosses that we must bear, but all parts of one cross; that is to say, all these are part and parcel of the one only way to life, through self-crucifixion and death, to the same life that Jesus won in this same way." AP Adams
Who was it that established the cross to be the identity of a Christian? What exactly is it that the cross part actually represents? If you say it's to represent death . . .Jesus dying for the world, then I would have to ask, is "that" really what the true identity should even be in the first place then?
Seems to me, Peter was rebuked and even called satan for his role in interfering with the true identity of Christ because he was passionate about protecting Jesus from dying.
I'm not sure I support this guy for having his standards going from Christ being the "only" door to the Father to just "any" belief in a God in general will do the trick. But at the same time, perhaps God "is" beginning to tear down some idols in order for truth to be revealed.
To me, the symbol of Christ isn't about the cross alone . . .it's definitely a necessity, but the actual "purpose" was to bring resurrection back to the death of the first Adam. So there really should be an empty tomb, an empty grave, maybe a grave marker with a fiery "X" over it or something.
They're reasons may be a bit out there, but I do believe the religious system as we've known it all these generations is indeed coming down.
John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Let them tear down the temple . . .Jesus is resurrecting a new one anyway.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 28, 2010, 07:42:27 AMWell, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure. If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.
I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand.
"generally accepted" very often means paganized. Like the myth of hell for example.
The real "sign" of the Mashiach isn't a crux or a fish, but a "lampstand" (menorah) Rev. 1&2.
The Hebrew "menorah" has 7 lamps, and represents His body, the 7 assemblies, through which flows the "living water" (lamp oil, the laws which give light to the world).
At Rev. 2:5 he said He would remove their menorah if they didn't repent (stop breaking Commandments).KJVRev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If the symbol of the cross is so important...why do gangsters or fowl mouthed rappers wear it on a regular basis?
I tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: onlytruth on June 29, 2010, 10:00:55 PMI tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!
That's a valid reason for me.
But the reason this "pastor" did it was very wrong imo.
What if Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross?
(Acts 5:30) (Acts 10:39) (1 Peter 2:24) (Acts 13:29) (Gal. 3:13)
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 29, 2010, 11:37:30 PM
What if Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross?
I think you are right about that: Start reading at Reply #19 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6276.0)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 29, 2010, 10:34:05 PM
Quote from: onlytruth on June 29, 2010, 10:00:55 PMI tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!
That's a valid reason for me.
But the reason this "pastor" did it was very wrong imo.
That's exactly the way I see it too. If this group were heading deeper into a Christ-centered experience, that's great. But that in no way is what I perceive to be happening in this instance.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 29, 2010, 11:48:13 PM
Quote from: CHB on June 29, 2010, 11:37:30 PM
What if Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross?
I think you are right about that: Start reading at Reply #19 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6276.0)
I've thought about this some more. I said earlier that perhaps a stake is a form of a generic term that could include cross
or tree - i.e., something stuck in the ground, and made of wood from a tree. That could be a pole, a beam, a stake, a cross, a tree, etc. Also, more recent archaelogical evidence apparently indicates the Romans did in fact use a cross (2 pieces of wood/poles/stakes) crossed, for at least some of their crucifixions. Maybe we won't know for sure until He tells us. In the meantime,
He was bruised for our trangressions, and by His stripes we are healed.
"The other disciples, then, said to him, "We have seen the Lord!" Yet he said to them, "Should I not perceive in His hands the print of the nails, and thrust my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will by no means be believing." (John 22:25, CLT)
That Thomas should say, "...in His hands the print of the nails," with nails plural, indicates Jesus was not crucified on a "pole." That hardly makes it an important point of difference, however.
As for what symbol might best represent the Christians? From the earlies times up until Constantine, the most common piece of Christian graffiti was the "Orante," the figure of a woman, half the time veiled, often with upraised hands. This was perhaps borrowed from Egyptian mystery religions, though specially Greek representations of "Wisdom," Sophia, as a woman. The Orante would often appear central to some Bible story, like in the belly of Jonah's great fish, which is how Christians viewed their place in the Roman Empire. She might be sketched taking the place of Daniel in the fiery furnace. How is it to be interpreted, while conjectored, seems obvious. They knew what it meant not just to be individual sons of God, but a level even beyond "one-anothering." They experienced being that corporate expression of His body, His BRIDE!
While some I have read say the cross as a Christian symbol possibly originates with Constantine, though what he saw in his famous vision as the sign in which he would conquor, was more accurately an "ankh," something like a capitol "T" with a circle on top. That was the egyptian symbol of immortal life. It seems though that its use by Christians must predate Constantine use of it since he knew what it was, identifying it with Christian doctines.
As for the sign of the fish? It was invented by perhaps Cecil B. DeMille in the mid 20th century for movies of the time.
WW, you asked me what's the Christian symbol. You and James (reFORMer have offered interesting info on that. My response was not what should be, but what often is used as or perceived to be.
I did find this here ( eureka4you.com ). Don't know if they're correct, but here's what they have to say;
The fish's first known use as a Christian religious symbol was sometime within the first three centuries AD. Christians began using the Greek word for "fish" as an anagram/acronym for "Jesus Christ God's Son, Savior." More about this later.
The fish outline is a logical symbol for the early Christian church to adopt. Not only was fish a common food of the day, it was also used by Jesus during His ministry.
.
Mark 1:17 "Come after Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."
Matthew 12:40 "...Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matthew 14:17 "And they said to Him, 'We have here only five loaves and two fish.'"
Luke 5:6 "And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking."
Luke 24:42 "So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb."
John 21:6 "And He said to them, 'Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.' So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish."
.
A 'fishy' tale?
In the years following the ascension of the resurrected Jesus to heaven, the Christian church grew rapidly.
Christians soon found themselves to be the subjects of persecution by both the Romans and the Jews.
In many locales, it became dangerous to be known as a Christian.
Thus, when two strangers met and thought maybe they were fellow believers, one of them would draw, on the ground, the upper half of the fish symbol.
Recognizing the symbol, the stranger would add a second curved line and complete the drawing of a fish.
.
It is a very simple shape to draw - just two curved strokes. It could be drawn quickly, and erased just as quickly if there was no sign of recognition on the part of the stranger.
.
The 'Greek' connection, #1
We do not know whether the story above is true but we do know that the fish's first known use as a Christian religious symbol was sometime within the first three centuries AD. Possibly around the 16th century Christians began using the Greek word ichthys for "fish". Ichthys is the most commonly used word in the New Testament for fish.
Ichthys consists of five letters from the Greek alphabet: I-ch-th-y-s. When these five letters are used as initials for five words, we obtain this Christian Declaration: Iesous Christos Theou Yios Soter. This is an acrostic for 'Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior.' - End Quote
.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 30, 2010, 06:58:36 AMWhile some I have read say the cross as a Christian symbol possibly originates with Constantine, though what he saw in his famous vision as the sign in which he would conquor, was more accurately an "ankh," something like a capitol "T" with a circle on top. That was the egyptian symbol of immortal life. It seems though that its use by Christians must predate Constantine use of it since he knew what it was, identifying it with Christian doctines.
http://hikmatun.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ankh.jpg
Seems everyone has read something different :sigh:
I wonder if there are any authorative works on it.
QuoteAs for the sign of the fish? It was invented by perhaps Cecil B. DeMille in the mid 20th century for movies of the time.
It seems to be frequently used in the catacombs.
There's a book published first in France and later, in 1983, in English (or that's what I think I remember.) Its titled ANTE PACEM which means "Before the Peace," referring before Constantine. It is a work of many photos of Christian art from that period, roughly the first 300 years of Christianity. There is no fish. This book is mostly uninterpreted archeological information. There's been very little Christian archeology. Most is pre-Christian Biblical archeology in the land of Israel.
Many page of the book (2003 edition) can be previewed here. (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=swtI9Cpyl3kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ANTE+PACEM&hl=en&ei=S9UqTO3gIJOVOKGThbMD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
About the cross/stake/pole. It seems to be a bit more complicated like that.
Basicly they called any straight piece of wood a pole. (pole is possibly not the best English translation)
The horizontal part Jezus carried was a pole. (it was a very common way to treat slaves)
The vertical part was called a pole also. And strange enough the combination also.
Anyway I'm still getting more convinced it wasn't a cross as commonly thought.
Not a pole either... Just a living tree with a vertical pole/plank nailed to it.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:yc2iI60kT2KIqM:http://www.thelemapedia.org/images/4/45/Ankh.gif)
The ankh is Egyptian for me but with a little fantasy it's a tree with a horizonal pole..... :icon_jokercolor:
BTW if the ankh was so important to early Christians I would expect it to see in the Christian catacombs.
Does anyone know about a good site with lots of such pictures?
I did read somewhere that only Jesus being nailed to a tree would fullfill a OT prophecy.
Maybe looking at the OT holds the proof we are looking for...?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 30, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
About the cross/stake/pole. It seems to be a bit more complicated like that.
Basicly they called any straight piece of wood a pole. (pole is possibly not the best English translation)
The horizontal part Jezus carried was a pole. (it was a very common way to treat slaves)
The vertical part was called a pole also. And strange enough the combination also.
Anyway I'm still getting more convinced it wasn't a cross as commonly thought.
Not a pole either... Just a living tree with a vertical pole/plank nailed to it.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:yc2iI60kT2KIqM:http://www.thelemapedia.org/images/4/45/Ankh.gif)
The ankh is Egyptian for me but with a little fantasy it's a tree with a horizonal pole..... :icon_jokercolor:
BTW if the ankh was so important to early Christians I would expect it to see in the Christian catacombs.
Does anyone know about a good site with lots of such pictures?
WhiteWings,
I have to agree with you. Jesus carried the cross piece that was nailed to the tree, not the whole cross. He couldn't have picked up a cross, two pieces. It would have taken two or three men to carry a cross heavy enough to crucify Jesus on.
CHB
If it's true that he was carrying just a cross beam . . .was this beam not fastened to his outstretched arms? If so . . .what was it that Simon the Cyrene had to then carry when Jesus stumbled and fell on his way to his crucifixion?
Perhaps it was THE SAME TREE that Adam and Eve ate from.
The Greek and Latin words corresponding to "crucifixion" applied to many different forms of painful execution, from impaling on a stake to affixing to a tree, to an upright pole (a crux simplex) or to a combination of an upright (in Latin, stipes) and a crossbeam (in Latin, patibulum).[5]
If a crossbeam was used, the condemned man was forced to carry it on his shoulders, which could have been torn open by flagellation, to the place of execution. A whole cross would weigh well over 300 pounds (135 kilograms), but the crossbeam would weigh only 75–125 pounds (35–60 kilograms).[6] The Roman historian Tacitus records that the city of Rome had a specific place for carrying out executions, situated outside the Esquiline Gate,[7] and had a specific area reserved for the execution of slaves by crucifixion.[8] Upright posts would presumably be fixed permanently in that place, and the crossbeam, with the condemned person perhaps already nailed to it, would then be attached to the post.
So various methods were used.
Most people can't lift a full cross. (not even drag it) Certainly not after being tortured a whole night. Even the beam is heavy.
Various verses use word tree. One verse even mentions a green tree.
KJVJoh 19:32-33 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Little riddle. If Jesus was hanging in the middle of the thiefs why did the soldiers break teh legs of the thiefs first?
Why not in the obvious order thief-Jesus-thief?
Sorry for getting way off-topic James.... Maybe merge certain posts with other thread? Now we are double crossed :laughing7:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 30, 2010, 07:34:56 PMPerhaps it was THE SAME TREE that Adam ans Eve ate from.
Must have been a very old tree then. I think the tree was in current Iraq.
That said I agree with the tree.
Death started with taking from a tree.
Death ended with adding to a tree. (in a way grafted in)
For me a nice living tree has much more symbolic value than a few pieces of dead wood.
I used the link WhiteWings provided to ANTE PACEM and found I'd misspelled "Orante" so it has been corrected.
Quote from: Nathan on June 30, 2010, 06:16:15 PM
If it's true that he was carrying just a cross beam . . .was this beam not fastened to his outstretched arms? If so . . .what was it that Simon the Cyrene had to then carry when Jesus stumbled and fell on his way to his crucifixion?
Hi Nathan,
I believe Jesus hands or arms were nailed to the crosspiece after he reached the place of execution.
CHB
I think Nathan means tied to the beam.
That's method was used often for agressive prisioners. Also in "our" time. You see it for example in Roots. The movie about the black slaves. But that usally was nothing more than a stick.
I checked several translations; many including KJV could haved been clearer
Matthew 27:32 Now as they went out, they found a Cyrenian himan named Simon; they forced him into service to pick up His stake.
"pick up" sounds like Jesus dropped it. Not that He was still tied to it. Altough not mentioned in the verse the Romans could have cut the ropes before Simon picked up the stake.
A single beam can be carried (crux simplex). A cross can't. It's totally out of balance. So it would more like "drag His cross"
Just test it yourself. No sleep, food or drink for a night. Then take a 300 pound bag and carry it uphill. Even a strong healty man would have quite a task on that.
I don't know the build of Jesus (I think very average); then whipped all night long.... :sigh:
The whips were not just like a horsewhip. I don't know how they are called in English but they had many strings.
Some knotted. Some with razor blade things on the end. And some with 'fishing hooks'. My guess is Jesus had no flesh left on His back... :mshock:
:cloud9: I think it was called a scourge and a cat-o-nine-tails because it had 9 strands with bits of sharp bone and stones on the ends of it, so it would shred the skin it whipped.
Probably had even had ribs exposed, possibly even internal organs, according to one account I read of a doctor looking at Calvary experience. Not much meat on the ribs area to go through.
Interesting also, is that the number 9 is in the pattern of the candlestick, and in the fruit and gifts of the Spirit. Blessings...
Years ago I was channel surfing and caught just part of a message by a TV preacher talking about Jesus Christ being flogged by a Roman cat of nine tails. He described the whip as a nine strap, lead tipped whip embedded with nails, glass and bone. That caught my attention. I had NEVER heard that before. He stated that Jesus had lost so much blood from the scourging, he was too weak to carry his own cross.
I didn't know the first century historian FLAVIOUS JOSEPHUS noted that "certain rebel Jews were torn to pieces by the scourge before being crucified"
"their bodies were frightfully lacerated. Christian martyrs in Smyrna were so torn by the scourges that their veins were laid bare, and the inner muscles, sinews, even entrails, were exposed".
(http://naturesdesignsonline.com/images/P2120018.jpg)
(http://naturesdesignsonline.com/catofninetails/P2050012.jpg)
Much more info here. (http://naturesdesignsonline.com/Cat-of-nine-tails.htm)
Back in the late 70's I got a hold of a book "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop
It may have been proved to be just an anti catholic book, but beginning on page 197 the book begins the history of the cross and he says that the cross or "TAU".
"That which is now called the Christian cross, was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians...." and he goes on. Any body else heard of the book or read it?
The Two Babylons - online version (http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/)
The Two Babylons - pdf version (http://whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_TWO_BABYLONS.pdf)
The cross has a pagan origin. That's simply a fact. (rebirth of the sun)
But that of course doesn't automaticly mean it can't be Christian.
Many religions predating Christianity also had virgin birth and a son of god living among humans to name just two things.
What chapter and section is page 197?
The book only has 196 pages..???
Found one more:
The two Babylons or Papal worship proven to be Nimrod and his wife. (1862) (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GooEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22The+Two+Babylons%22&hl=en&ei=_5EsTIX7F9KjONWnnPYI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
The pope part of a cult? I shoulda know when I first saw that Dagot fish hat :icon_king:
My hardcover has 290 pgs. plus it goes to page 323 with appendix. Personally I dont care about any of the christian accumulated symbols in the christian world. I reason that they all become idols at some point.
This thread has been yet another eye-opener on bringing a little more clarity to things. I had always wondered how could a physical man have all or most of all his flesh ripped from his back and then forced to carry this 300 pound cross all through the streets . . .but seeing that it may have more likely been a cross "beam" that was later attached to a perpendicular pole does seem to fit the situation.
And when it comes to "that was pagan before it was Christian" . . .for me, I'd have to ask what if the pagans were getting it from their ancestors . . .who if you go back far enough . . .got at least bits and pieces of their beliefs from their ancestors who were there when these things were originally handed down . . .by God.
All men, if you go back far enough, came from Noah . . .who obviously knew something about the laws of God . . .yes?
yep
Quote from: Nathan on July 01, 2010, 10:59:03 PM
This thread has been yet another eye-opener on bringing a little more clarity to things. I had always wondered how could a physical man have all or most of all his flesh ripped from his back and then forced to carry this 300 pound cross all through the streets . . .but seeing that it may have more likely been a cross "beam" that was later attached to a perpendicular pole does seem to fit the situation.
And when it comes to "that was pagan before it was Christian" . . .for me, I'd have to ask what if the pagans were getting it from their ancestors . . .who if you go back far enough . . .got at least bits and pieces of their beliefs from their ancestors who were there when these things were originally handed down . . .by God.
All men, if you go back far enough, came from Noah . . .who obviously knew something about the laws of God . . .yes?
Yeah enoch was close to God and is mentioned in the bible prophesying the end times when God comes back to destroy the wicked, so he would know many other things as well, I think Abraham was the first man who knew about the birth of Christ though, for God was his friend and God speaks many things to his friends and the practice play of the sacrifice with Abrahams son confirms this I think. Yeah God speaks many things to his friends, as you can tell by my writings :Sparkletooth:, but seriously though I think we all would like to be called Gods friend, but it is only a few that he gives this privelage too and I think it would require a level of service and intimacy, most of us would shy away from.
Mat 27:32 And coming forth, they found a man, a Cyrenian, by name Simon: him they impressed that he might bear his cross;
Mar 15:21 And they impress a certain one passing by--Simon, a Cyrenian, coming from the field, the father of Alexander and Rufus--that he may bear his cross,
Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, having taken hold on Simon, a certain Cyrenian, coming from the field, they put on him the cross, to bear it behind Jesus.
Joh 19:17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha;
Just wondering, that whip and the damage it did to the body of a human being, and He was at this point a man of flesh, bone, and blood carrying hardly his own body. What point could possibly be taken away for a believer to grow on? I am not saying no to it, but it is only recorded by John, and I see the first four words of John as POWERFULL, for spiritual warfare. my :2c: Peace and Love Through Jesus
I've been told that you can take every disease known to man and in researching them down you will find that every one of them break down to be deriving from 39 diseases . . .or something to that effect.
Interesting, much like animals then who follow after a basic design, e.g cat familly, where the original cat would have all the genes necessary for stripes, spots, mane, white coat gene, etc
:cloud9: I've heard that too, Nate....by His stripes we were healed. Makes sense. Blessings...
For those who are interested in the crucifixion and how and where it happened this is a good book to read.
http://www.askelm.com/books/book001.htm
CHB