Spiritual Death?

[Zeek]

No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.

However, the wages of sin is death.

That death is a physical one, we all will die from this earth, there are no exceptions, even Jesus died a physical death.

how do you know that the wages of sin is physical death??  was physical death not present before Adam and Eve sinned?? 

Gn 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying."


There is no account of death prior to this instruction.

Spiritual death does not come from sin.    Paul had sin within him, yet he is an example of a spiritual man, so  the idea that the wages of sin is spiritual death is a contradiction.

i disagree, but probably a topic for another thread. 

blessings

[fire walker]

Mankind was already dead when Jesus pointed out that man was "DEAD in trespasses and sin" so Adam/Eve did die that death by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then tried to cover their nakedness they died the death here Jesus is speaking of even though they lived on physicaly for many many years until the appointed dying of natural mind and body.

It appears to me that the physical dying of the natural body, which all in Adam are appointed to die once is the second death,
so when Jesus said "we must be born again" is not by returning to our mothers wombs and being born of water again, Nicodemus questioned Jesus on this, so Jesus answered Nicodemus and said more clearly that "to have life man must be born of water and of spirit" so this being born again is in spirit, born from above, it is not being born again of water into a perishable body as Nicodemus had thought was meant by this.

So what do you think about this? That we died in Adam when they ate from the TOKOGAE, and just like Adam we still live an apointed amount of time in our born of water clay house before it must die, not one of mankind from Adam until this present day has lived in the natural body beyond their appointed years even Jesus had to suffer dying in order to be raised up to life in the ressurection. The husk is removed, the vail is rent.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Zeek]

It appears to me that the physical dying of the natural body, which all in Adam are appointed to die once is the second death,

Peace,
Fire Walker

here are a few questions I have:

Do animals die the second death too?  why??  did they transgress a law??

Did carnivores before Adam and Eve sinned eat meat?  If so, did they kill the animals first? 

Did plant life, seed bearing fruits die prior to Adam and Eve sinning?



Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


if sorrow was multiplied, doesn't this imply sorrow was already present? 

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:


doesn't this imply that death was already present, prior; and now God must keep man from the T of L so that he will continue to die?? 


Adam and Eve (if a true story, and not allegorical) were about 6000 years ago.  The earth imo, is older than 6000 years old.  Death was here prior, imo; to Adam and Eve.


Who was Cain afraid of killing him?  Were they Adam and Eve's children too??



If the wages of sin is physical death, then how can there be a sin that does not lead to death??

1Jn 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


how can one who believes in Him, never die?? 

[Zeek]

I believe that too much emphasis is put on "life after physical death", when in my opinion, God is working in man now. 

God was in covenant with Israel; and death was talking of being out of relationship. 

Under the Old Covenant if someone was cast out, they were out of covenant and considered dead.  They were out of fellowship with their brethren, and with God.

In my opinion, wages of sin is death; is breaking covenant with God. 

Dying to that death, is to humble oneself and have grace lift you up into relationship again.  It is to be lifted up above the "waters below". 

Second death is imo, the wrath upon those that refuse to die to "death/self".  it leaves one naked, shamed. 

[Zeek]

just some more questions I think about.

Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


what about Eve, why isn't she sentenced to "return to dust"? 


Why only do "all in Adam die", but not all in Eve??



Adam wasn't deceived,


Eve was deceived.




No one must sin through deception then; if all return to dust like Adam.

[aspiring son]

just some more questions I think about.

Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


what about Eve, why isn't she sentenced to "return to dust"? 


Why only do "all in Adam die", but not all in Eve??



Adam wasn't deceived,


Eve was deceived.




No one must sin through deception then; if all return to dust like Adam.


[/quote

Adam was the first, or the head of the two. Eve came from him. So, when Adam was deceived, then was it really considered "the fall".

[CHB]

It appears to me that the physical dying of the natural body, which all in Adam are appointed to die once is the second death,

Peace,
Fire Walker

here are a few questions I have:

Do animals die the second death too?  why??  did they transgress a law??

Did carnivores before Adam and Eve sinned eat meat?  If so, did they kill the animals first? 

Did plant life, seed bearing fruits die prior to Adam and Eve sinning?



Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


if sorrow was multiplied, doesn't this imply sorrow was already present? 

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:


doesn't this imply that death was already present, prior; and now God must keep man from the T of L so that he will continue to die?? 


Adam and Eve (if a true story, and not allegorical) were about 6000 years ago.  The earth imo, is older than 6000 years old.  Death was here prior, imo; to Adam and Eve.


Who was Cain afraid of killing him?  Were they Adam and Eve's children too??



If the wages of sin is physical death, then how can there be a sin that does not lead to death??

1Jn 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


how can one who believes in Him, never die?? 

Very good questions Zeek, I would like to hear your answers. I have wondered about these same things.

I would think death already existed when Adam was created. Don't know about animals dying the second death but probably not.

CHB

CHB