Charity must never be missing

[lastpost]

Tonight in my small church the theme was about charitable love (it continues next week - and why not?).

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2)

It might seem strange that one inspired by the Holy Spirit can state that he who is in the possession of the gift of prophecy, who is able to understand all mysteries, and who has all knowledge, and who has all faith so that mountains might be removed - that all these things are as nothing, swept aside, powerless to stand alone, if charitable love is absent.

Being able to not only understand another through empathy but to genuinely sympathise with them is an essential requisite to being able to help them - without that sympathy it is but half-love.

When true love is given it is never taken away, although many have a different experience of this in human terms. But Christ is with us always, as He said. His love is perfect, and He called His followers to love others as He loved them.

[speaktruth]

Tonight in my small church the theme was about charitable love (it continues next week - and why not?).

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2)

It might seem strange that one inspired by the Holy Spirit can state that he who is in the possession of the gift of prophecy, who is able to understand all mysteries, and who has all knowledge, and who has all faith so that mountains might be removed - that all these things are as nothing, swept aside, powerless to stand alone, if charitable love is absent.

Being able to not only understand another through empathy but to genuinely sympathise with them is an essential requisite to being able to help them - without that sympathy it is but half-love.

When true love is given it is never taken away, although many have a different experience of this in human terms. But Christ is with us always, as He said. His love is perfect, and He called His followers to love others as He loved them.

[That it  :HeartThrob: might devlop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the  [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the  completeness found in Him.  Eph 4:13 (AMP)

Rather, let our lives lovingly  :HeartThrob: express the truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly].  Enfolded in love :HeartThrob:, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.  Eph 4:15

[micah7:9]

 :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :goodpost:

[lastpost]

I understand why some people are sour about the way they have been manipulated by churches which teach "eternal torment" but I would like to add a perspective to the subject in the name of charity.

Matthew 16
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The place where I live was occupied by the Nazi regime between 1940 to 1945. Last year I had a letter published in my local newspaper concerning reconciliation of modern Germans to local people where I live - some people with long memories could not forget or forgive.

I wrote about the Nazi government's introduction into the school curriculum in Germany in the 1930s of propaganda which trained the children to believe that they were a superior race and the Jewish nation were genetically connected to rats, swine and even locusts. I saw a book that taught children that Jews metamorphosised into sausage dogs. The Nazi Germany children accepted race science as fact.

There are some records of the Nuremburg trials that show treatment of Jewish children not unlike the evil of Jeremiah 19:4-5 and similar, and one record I found so disturbing thirty years ago that I would not put it here as it is worse than most people could imagine - it is the stuff of nightmares. Nazism was pure evil.

I likened the distributing of Nazi race science literature and picture books into the children's curriculum to the yeast of the Pharisees in Matthew 16 and the Power of Jesus Christ was in the letter because it embodied His Truth. Astounding, amazing, wondrous things can happen when God is within an action.

Now, I see this type of evil, Nazism, as a thousand times worse than a church somewhere not towing the party line as far as the letter is concerned, to me it seems a little trivial while evil elsewhere runs amok, if you will. Nazism is another god.

The world should be rid of those kind of "other gods" through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, evil has been done by the Church in the past but that is lessening and lessening as world consciousness develops. I know some really nice people who go to these churches, although there will always be those who upset others too everywhere. I do not agree with their doctines but in the name of charity I will try not to offend what they hold dear to their hearts, and who has the right to say Jesus is not in their hearts - He may be there. We have to take care. It should not be "us and them".

I would like to point out another important point about the teaching in Matthew 16:5-12. It has a deeper meaning about not taking everything spoken by God as a literal fact and to look for the symbolic and spiritual meaning within. Jesus teaches His followers step by step how to "read" His teachings.

[eaglesway]

This is tru. There were surely some who stood up and decried the wickedness of the Nazis as wickedness. The doctrine of ET I see as "leaven of the Phaarisees" and the Pharisees crucified Christ over their leaven, and him calling them sons of Cain and sons of the devil and guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah. Yet they will all be reconciled. :o)

God alone knows, when we lift up our voices, if it is out of a love for righteousness and a willingness to love the ones who are perpetrating evil. But the voice will cry out through His pilgrims here.

Their is however, a certain shrill tone to the voices of those who are trumpeting their truth outside of love- that we should be able to discern and try to avoid, especially in ourselves.

But in a wide house there are many vessels, some of noble use, some ignoble.

[lastpost]

We have to be discerning. By saying that other churches disseminate the leaven of the Pharisees and that it was the Pharisees who crucified Christ, we are saying indirectly to people who go to those churches: "Your church crucified Christ!" which is not particularly a good start for reconciliation.

[Lazarus Short]

I wrote about the Nazi government's introduction into the school curriculum in Germany in the 1930s of propaganda which trained the children to believe that they were a superior race and the Jewish nation were genetically connected to rats, swine and even locusts. I saw a book that taught children that Jews metamorphosised into sausage dogs. The Nazi Germany children accepted race science as fact.

There are some records of the Nuremburg trials that show treatment of Jewish children not unlike the evil of Jeremiah 19:4-5 and similar, and one record I found so disturbing thirty years ago that I would not put it here as it is worse than most people could imagine - it is the stuff of nightmares. Nazism was pure evil.

I'm afraid that many will take offense at what I am about to say, but if we tar one group, we must tar any other group which resembles it.  We all like to point to some other group of people who are no quite like us, and call them bad and evil, but in view of the gulf which separates sinful man from righteous God, there is little distance from saint to sinner.

Portraying Nazism as evil is an easy exercise, but it serves no good purpose.  There is too much propaganda, too much mental/attitudinal conditioning, too much emotion, for the truth to be readily seen.  I am dedicated to finding the truth, even if it goes against my instincts or all that I was taught in school.  I have had to unlearn many, many things, and at my age (63), I am still doing it.  I like to compare and contrast the evil Nazi's, who are still vilified so many decades later, with the Zionist Jews, whom few dare to oppose.  You would think the official chief victims of Nazism would set up a society vastly different from the one they opposed so fervently - but behold:

They set up a socialist state, just as Nazi Germany was socialist.  Further, since they are so nationalistic, they could even be described as national socialists.

They turned their ideology, Zionism, into an idol, just as the Nazi's did with theirs.

They indulge in a master race theology, as taught by their Talmud, and prominent Jews and Jewish publications (not intended for non-Jewish perusal) have stated that the Goyim (translates as "cattle") are, if left alive, on this Earth to serve Jews.  I think Hitler simply scratched out "Jew" and wrote in "German," at least it seems so to me.

They persecuted and/or drove out and/or massacred those of other races/languages/nationalities who opposed them, or might oppose them.  Their country today is a land of walls and barbed wire, where Christians, Muslims, Druze, and even non-white Jews can be no more than second-class citizens.

They have, through repeated wars, achieved "breathing room."

I am pointing out some historical parallels here.  If you think I accuse the Jews of undue badness and evil, I can only add that it is easy to point out badness and evil in every religion, nationality, government and society.  Consider how in the USA, the Indians were massacred and driven out, how the American Way was turned into an idol, and how we came to consider ourselves as better than any other group of people.  We must transcend all that (and more) if we are to fit to enter the Far Country.



 

[redhotmagma]

 :iagree: Laz

You could add many more to the USA too.  Our history is romanticized. Our current events are romanticized. We are supporting al quaida right now for Pete's sake, but very few realize it. The oppression at home and abroad by our nation is sickening. And this didnt just begin with B.O. For all my conservative friends. Flouridization, medical testing, abortion, subsidizing of corn, are all destroying the health and welfare of the lower class.

This is not to say we are all evil. But the romantic ideal of America misses the mark.

[Lazarus Short]

:iagree: Laz

You could add many more to the USA too.  Our history is romanticized. Our current events are romanticized. We are supporting al quaida right now for Pete's sake, but very few realize it. The oppression at home and abroad by our nation is sickening. And this didnt just begin with B.O. For all my conservative friends. Flouridization, medical testing, abortion, subsidizing of corn, are all destroying the health and welfare of the lower class.

This is not to say we are all evil. But the romantic ideal of America misses the mark.

Yes, I could have said much more, but I prefer to hold back and not overwhelm you all with too much information, in case we're not on the same page.  It seems you may be up on things.  I'm aware that we live in the Fourth Reich of the Rich, and that the country is run by the sons and grandsons of Nazi sympathizers, and the Zionists - another parallel.  Dig deep enough, and the boundaries between Reps and Dems, conservatives and liberals, Nazis and Communists, begin to disappear... 

BTW, the proper spelling is "al-CIA(duh).

[lastpost]

Ah yes, thank you for this information, it is appreciated and thought provoking.

I was really focussing on the reconciliation between those older local folk from where I live (between the UK and France) and modern Germans.

Some local folk who lived through the Nazi Occupation have said they can never forgive the "Germans" meaning those people who live today who never had any Nazi teaching and are disgusted by Nazism (and ashamed to be associated by nationality). All Germans are the "same" to them, if you will.

That is why I explained about the brainwashing of the Nazi children so that those folk today have an opportunity to understand what swept through that nation so that they can learn to forgive Germans today.

And in doing so, I used the "yeast" reference in regard to the brainwashing of the children with propaganda literature and what it led to so quickly.

This whole world needs reconciliation, and the yeast of reconciliation needs to be spread so that the consciousness of reconciliation becomes embedded and leaves no place for the evil yeast to take a hold.

I believe in miracles - Jesus said ask anything in His Name and He will do it.

                                                                 :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Without LOVE a believer has Nothing. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Col 3:14  and above all these things, have love, which is a bond of the perfection,
Col 3:15  and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful. :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

:iagree: Laz

You could add many more to the USA too.  Our history is romanticized. Our current events are romanticized. We are supporting al quaida right now for Pete's sake, but very few realize it. The oppression at home and abroad by our nation is sickening. And this didnt just begin with B.O. For all my conservative friends. Flouridization, medical testing, abortion, subsidizing of corn, are all destroying the health and welfare of the lower class.

This is not to say we are all evil. But the romantic ideal of America misses the mark.

I recall Abraham interceding for Sodom and Gomorah..... If there are ten righteous? Will you withold your Judgment? "Yes Abraham, if there are ten I will have mercy."

There werent but, This is the spirit in which Paul exhorts us to pray for those who are in authority that we might live peaceably and declare the gospel.

"If the salt has lost its savor".... Only God knows if their are enough righteous remaining in this country to justify the struggle..... but THE RIGHTEOUS WILL INTERCEDE IN THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM :o) Father of nations, in whose seed, Jesus Christ- ALL NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED.

I say SPEAK! Even, CRY OUT LOUD against injustice and wickedness- but if you do not intercede at the same time, better look inside- IMO God has little more use for Zealots than he does for Pharisees or Saducees in the kingdom :o)

[lastpost]

Matthew 16
6) Then Jesus said unto them, take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
12) Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

If Christ was referring to the doctrine of endless torment as being the yeast of the Pharisees then He must also have been including the eschatology of the Sadducees who did not believe in an afterlife (Matt. 22:23; Mark 12:18-27; Acts 23:8).

This is reasonable as the slur upon the God Who is Love made by a doctrine of endless torment is perhaps only slightly worse than the doctrine which seeks to negate the Love and Wisdom of God Who has thought into being a Purpose of the aeons for the blessing of an abundant spiritual life upon His children.

However, in my opinion, eschatological theories alone were not the main purpose of Christ's warning.

If the yeast that Christ was referring to was the character of the priesthood in general in relation to the people who considered the Sanhedrin as the religious authority, then it is true that what was said of the Pharisees by Christ would also include the character of the Sadducees, as from the point of view of the people to whom they administered religious law they were one body, one authority and acted similarly.

However, verse 12 takes us away from the idea that Christ was indicating merely the character of the Sadducees and the Pharisees, because it emphasises that it was the "teaching" and its yeast-like effect of the Pharisees and Sadducees that was in question.

I believe that there was a deeper, more fundamental reason to which this warning by Christ Jesus was directed.

[lastpost]

Continued...

The priesthood's toxic teachings had unbalanced the religion that was so deeply entrenched in the consciousness of the people – the same people who now listened so reverently to "God-is-with-us", the Royal Redeemer Who claimed to be the Way, the Truth and the Life, and Who said that He must proclaim His Gospel which is the Kingdom of God (Matt. 4:23, Matt. 9:35, Mark 1:14-15, Luke 4:43, Luke 8:1, Luke 16:16).

Christ Jesus, Who taught compassion and demonstrated selflessness, the Gentle Stranger Who performed healing on many and displayed perfect generosity, the Divine Teacher Who poured out moral and spiritual teachings everywhere He went and Who said that the words that He spoke were not His but the Father's (John 8:38-42; 12:49-50; 14:24), He Who taught that the most important commandment of all was to love God with heart, body, mind and soul, and to love one's neighbour – He warned His followers to be wary of the effects of the priests' instruction. What could be so dangerous if they had the instruction of He Who was Truth in person?

Christ warned of the effects of a malevolent teaching amongst those who loved Him so much and yet understood Him so little – the warning was for those who truly wanted to obey the Lord God Jehovah, for those who grew up in a culture indoctrinated with superstition infused by an evil ministry (Matt. 12:39, 16:4), for those who accepted unquestioningly the traditions of generations (Mark 7:13) - traditions which coursed through their veins, traditions expounded by priests upon whom the Master Teacher was now pouring condemnation.

About what was Jesus the Christ warning the early hearers of His Gospel of glad tidings, those who would be responsible for passing on the Truth in His Name that He laid down for all to follow, those whose religion was instilled into them by an abominable caste of teachers who devoured widows' houses (Matt. 23:14) and loved the possessions of the world (Luke 16:14)?

The Master Christ cautioned those that He loved so well, those who were drenched in the conventions hammered into them by hypocritical teachers (Matt. 23:13) who, instead of giving comfort, had injected a hideous fear into them and their parents about a ruthless being who demanded the extraction of what little offerings they had by being brought to the chests and altars in order to keep that outraged and easily offended being from sending upon them a punishment worse than death many times over.

The Great Instructor alerted those He loved to the snakes' poisonous instruction - the doctrine of the offspring of vipers (Matt. 12:34) - which had turned the beauty of the Lord (Psa. 27) Who is good and Whose mercy is everlasting (Psa. 100, 107), into a great and mighty being without mercy who could barely keep from heaping death, torture and destruction upon a people - who could barely eke out a living for themselves (Matt.23:4) - unless they parted with their goods in the name of that being.

Those born into the religion of the day who would benefit from the tremendous inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit, those who would possess spiritual gifts that would enable them to take in and pass on wisdom and spiritual knowledge to others, these, even with all this, still had a need to be wary of the teaching of the priesthood. The powerful Holy Spirit was to impress directly upon them spiritual truths concerning Himself and His Purpose, yet He still warned them of a danger caused by the warped teaching of the religious leaders.

It would come naturally to the followers of the religion which had been nefariously presented and grossly perverted by the priests that Jesus Christ was a "blood sacrifice" once His Sacred Life had been beaten, smashed and drained out of His body, which would assuage the wrath of the fearful being promoted by the Sanhedrin in place of the God Who is Love. In my opinion, this anomaly has shown itself in places in the inspired opinions of the Bible.

Jesus the Christ never taught such about Himself while expounding His own Gospel (Mark 1:14). Christ cut that deep step on that day at Calvary because through that deep step His Message of repentance and Good News of the Divine Kingdom would be spread far and wide for millennia.

In my opinion, His Blood was shed for the remission of sins. But alas, tradition was too strong and the wrong sense and meaning was imputed into His great Sacrifice. By witnessing and accepting God's Love shown by the Cross and the Sacred Blood, so, through the dramatic change, that soul becomes clean and washed spiritually and the effect of sins are no longer held to account - they are "forgiven" in the sense that the powerful change expiates all rapidly. But this is through accepting His Love of which the Cross is a demonstration of the sacrificial Love of the God of all.

The wrong sense is that acceptance of an idea of a human sacrifice as an altar sacrifice makes one fit for the purity of heaven whereas all others cannot enter such a rarefied State unless they accept a metaphysical concept.

Once the correct sense is brought in through the generations then the separatism caused by the incorrect idea will exist only in a very few but not enough to hinder the coming of Christ to the whole world. When enough children of God on Earth want the Saviour, He will come in His Glory and He will leave the doubters and the scoffers dumbfounded.

Peace.

[jabcat]

I enjoy your posts lp, including this one.  I do separate with you on the last 5 paragraphs on some points, i.e., the (or something closely related to) Christus Victor view.  For instance, of course I agree that His blood was shed for the remission of sins as you say.  However, although I'll admit my carnal and/or human mind can't fully wrap around it (the Sacrifice and all it entails) I still see it as scriptural.  How do you personally deal with the following?

•His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
•His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
•His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
•His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
•His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
•His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
•His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).

Thanks, blessings.

[lastpost]

Hi jabcat,

when I was writing, I was thinking of Paul and also Hebrews. Personally, I can deal with the Hebrews quotes you mention because I treat them in an allegorical sense and it is all fine. Nevertheless, even if they were written to be read in a literal sense then I would treat them as being written by a Jew who felt that the death of Christ must have been a once-and-for-all massive altar sacrifice.

As for Melchizedek, I believe that he was probably one of the most influential leaders for the whole chosen race next to Elijah (not including Jesus of course). I believe these two were above and beyond Abraham and Moses as far as spiritual guidance and influence on the people as a whole is concerned.

So yes, Christ Jesus was the High Priest of that order. If the allegory to Him being a sacrifice is made then that is fine also. If the writer considered it literal then I believe that was conditioning.

I believe that Jesus the Christ suffered more than anyone could imagine. If by bearing the sins of the whole world and dying for each and everyone as a Sacrifice suffering is meant, then He suffered in a way we will never know as only He could know such suffering, only Christ.

For me, Divine Love is the key. The God I know a little about, Who is Love, does not really get into any of the human emotions we get into. He does not withhold forgiveness; it is not in the Nature of Divine Love. It is only humans, us, who need to be taught forgiveness. I know when I have been lucky enough to have felt God descend upon me, I have realised that that Love is not of the human condition, it is everything that anyone wants and that Love is missed when it is not felt so strongly. The point is, that God Who is Love, He does not need to forgive anyone because His Love does not consider forgiveness or unforgiveness - such things do not make sense when that Love is felt. It is Everything worth having. And that is why He wants us to have It!

[jabcat]

As in the other thread, I'll think on it some more - in the meantime, maybe some others will join in. Thanks.

[lastpost]

Please do not worry, this is gist of what I believe, it is food for thought.

I have learnt a lot while spending time with people on this forum, truly it has been a privilege, I have been humbled, and I have spent a few hours in the market place in Jerusalem with the Master - can you believe what that means to me? I have hesitated to express high heresy!

                                                                                    :dsunny:

[redhotmagma]

Sacrifice and burnt offerings I did not desire.

Who desired them then?

I do not dwell in temples built with human hands.

God let me build a temple for you.

Are these religious things similar to God giving Israel a king when they ask?

[sheila]

RHM I wrote a post of this  very thinng yesterday! but erased it.   those under law[lawless ones] have the

hard heart of stone..eye for an eye tooth for a tooth mentality... thus a 'sacrifice" required...this law covennt

does not and caan not make perfect...but should lead you to Christ...as both fulfillment of the law covenant

  or the concluding of it..that hard hearts set on unforgiveness and mercy be prepared for the better covenaant

     sacrifices and offerings I did not desire..BUT IN MERCY WAS MY DELIGHT....

     People fail to recognize that Jesus forgive sins before He died as the sin offering...........the hard heart[law

written on stone] says there is no forgiveness unless blood is poured forth.

    we are judged of men under the law....Moses llowed for divorce due to hardness of the hearts

     hard unforgiving heaarts like to exact retribution....they judge the law but are not a doer of the law

themselves.

      the power of sin is the law..to bring death..it is a ministry of death...that no man be declared righteous

and all be bound up in sin.....that no flesh should boast.

   Jesus said,hardly anyone would die for a righteous man..but for a good man...God's goodness exceeds

  His righteousness...thus mercy triumphs over judgement[righteousness]  thus the suffering for doing 'good'

  is part of the perfection process..learning obediance through suffering.  Thus Jesus as the

atonement/pssover Lamb[perfect spotless unblemished Lamb] ppearance marred..not from his sin..but

from the sin in others .

Suffering for doing 'good' ..only God is good...for what good works do you judge me?

     just a few thoughts....as of yet..it is not quite formed in me..thus my hesitancy yesterday to speak

 

[rosered]

 :iagree:   
Great post Shelia   
I dont think mankind knows  what the Spirit is doing or has done already   for mankind , that the darkness  and covering of being flesh and blood that does not  inherit the Kingdom
  though the Kingdom  of God is within you

[dajomaco]

  The spirit can show Love by feeding and clothing Jesus.
We will visit Jesus while he is a captive, we will feed him when he is hungry,
we will cloth him when he is naked. 

[eaglesway]

Sacrifice and burnt offerings I did not desire.

Who desired them then?

I do not dwell in temples built with human hands.

God let me build a temple for you.

Are these religious things similar to God giving Israel a king when they ask?

I think exactly so.  The Lord spoke through Samuel something like, "I wanted to live among you and dwell among you and be your God, but you want  a man to rule over you like the nations that surround you. OK, here you go- he will take your daughters as wives and concubines, he will take your sons fo his wars and he will tax you half to deat- but you want it? you got it."

The children of Israel longed for the leeks of Egypt and craved meat in the wilderness.

Jesus said, "Not one stone will be left standing upon anaother", and I personally believe that meant all the systems of authority and theology and buildings and organizations.

He also said, "Be not like the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding and rule over one another."

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, [a]acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this [c]world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may [d]prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [e]acceptable and perfect.

3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

In Romans 12 Paul goes on to describe the beauty of a functioning body of servant/disciples/believers

Being renewed in the spirit of our minds allows us to function as a body under one head. Being conformed to the world leads us to division, competition, striving and spiritual impotence.

Ephesians ends with the functions of the body (apsotles, prophets, pastors teachers etc....) for the building up of the body in love "according to the effectual working of each individual part"..

But it begins like this...

4 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

I think that no matter how far away what we see manifested in "churchianity" is from what the Body Of Christ is supposed to be- unless we believe what Jesus and the disciples taught about the body- we will never see it

[jabcat]

  Thus Jesus as the

atonement/pssover Lamb[perfect spotless unblemished Lamb] ppearance marred..not from his sin..but

from the sin in others .

    just a few thoughts....as of yet..it is not quite formed in me..thus my hesitancy yesterday to speak

Amen sheila.  All scriptures reconcile, rightly divided. Maybe God didn't "desire" it, just as He may "prefer" we not have to suffer pain.  Did He desire to destroy Sodom?  Did He desire to slay the Egyptians, or to kill multitudes in the flood - to have His Son die on the cross?  I don't think He desired it, but, perhaps it's the "only way"?   Or it must be the best way, and God alone knows it?  Maybe that's why He says what He says about in His Word, and the reason for the way He chose to do it?  And our condition being, that it's hard for us to not struggle with it, or to the extreme, deny it? 

"Not quite formed in me" is a good way to put it.  However, I believe that however we get to the point, or however it's finally fully understood - Jesus, the Lamb that was slain - became sin who knew no sin.  Jesus just wasn't a "good, special guy - showing us the way of love".    Peter calls Him "the very Lord who BOUGHT us".  Blessings.

[rosered]

 
  Amen Bro J !   :thumbsup:   Isaiah 53  says it all  , in whatever  version your looking into it   :winkgrin:    we are all still the work of His hands / power      for His glory !!

  Jesus Christ is Lord / master   now  ,of the dead and the living !!