Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?
There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent. Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?
Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters? Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?
Thoughts? Scripture?
Hi Again;
Yeah I personally think this is part of the learning from experience as the best way for the truth to sink in.
When we learn a trade we hear all the theories and then do the practical to see what applies and how it applies.
When we learn sports we practice to improve. Seems that these are all little analogies that make sense at the time we actually try to find out why we are doing things. As a kid we do ask little questions. As we grow up we seem to ask the same questions but at a deeper level.
Heb 12;8-11 " If, however, you are without discipline, whereof ALL have received a share, then you are bastards and NOT sons.
Indeed furthermore we used to have the father's of our flesh as administrators of discipline, and we used to pay deference:
Shall we not much rather submit ourselves to the Father of our spirits and live?
For they indeed were administering discipline for a few days according to that which SEEMED GOOD to them:
but He to that which is profitable with a view to OUR PARTAKING of His holiness:
but no discipline indeed seems to be of joy for the present, but of sorrow:
HOWEVER, AFTERWARDS, to them who have thereby been well trained it yields peaceful fruit of righteousness."
Yes Ross, I agree. I don't think it's possible to learn to walk without falling. I've never met a baby who could do it yet! (Hence why my daughter had a nice shiner for her first birthday lol!)
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?
There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent. Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?
Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters? Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?
Thoughts? Scripture?
Scripture
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent.
Thoughts/feelings
There have been times/seasons in my life when my feelings identified with Tevye (Fiddler on the Roof) complaining to God: "I know. I know. We are Your chosen people, but once in a while, can't You choose someone else."
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?
There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent. Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?
Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters? Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?
Thoughts? Scripture?
I do not see things as "a Christian falters" and that is because God prepares us in advance, if at a later point in a Christians life, God brings someone across their path with a difficulty, if that Christian, who we may see as having fallen away, back into some things of the flesh, I believe it is for the purpose of better understanding that thing of the flesh so that he is prepared to help another who is dealing with the same issue.
At the least, this is what makes sense to me.
I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.
Wow, good points Deena!!
When sin abounds....
... death abounds.
grace super abounds.
(Rom 5:20) But the law came in alongside, so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace superabounded,
I know that's what you were getting at. :)
Just provoking. :)
Quote from: Deena on June 27, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.
The prodigal son came to mind last week for me, who is the prodigal son, I was always taught that the prodigal son was the one who squandered his inheritance.
I believe they are both examples of being a prodigal son, what I see in the older brother is, he chose to separate himself from his father and brother simply because the father chose to forgive and love the one who squandered his inheritance. Is this not an example of those of organized religion, they chose to separate themselves from their brother (mankind) simply because they do not want to believe that our loving Father will forgive those who have squandered what they were given.
Some really good responses in here guys, thanks, and amen.
This touches on a discussion I was having earlier today with someone; Deena said "Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God." :gthumbsup:
Quote from: Deena on June 27, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
I have been pondering over this need to fall,fail, sin. When you read the story of the prodigal and compare the two sons, who is the one to experience the Father's love on a deep personal level? The one who fell and failed badly. The other brother remained ignorant of His Father's true nature. I think there is a reason that grace is extended to the humble. They are the only ones capable of receiving it. Maybe this fact also reveals why God subjected humanity to futility. Only by experiencing it do we learn the truth about ourselves and God.
Deena, this post reminded me of a conversation I'd just had with a friend. I sent it to him, and he responded with this;
"AWESOME!!! LOVE THAT!!!!!!! YES YES YES YES YES!!!! U don't know what the Father is really like until you accept His never ending, abounding Grace. SO TRUE! We have people on both sides of the equation that won't accept it... the religious minded who seek to know what God is really like through pleasing Him with their own works in an attempt to generate Holiness/Righteousness. Then you have the unbelievers who either just don't believe and/or are so turned off by the religious minded that they want to have nothing to do with the god they hear about.
There really is no other "message" more relevant to the whole of humanity than this INCREDIBLE Gospel of GRACE!!!l
It is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT in the HISTORY OF HUMANITY!
Is it any wonder the apostle Paul was generally BESIDE HIMSELF in his writings... coming from submersion in LAW... GRACE was revealed to him in its ENTIRE MAGNIFICENT GLORY!!! IT BLEW HIS MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There he was pursuing Law and KABOOM!!!!!!!!.... He was completely blown away by GRACE!
Grace is impossible!! It can't be real... it isn't "logical"... yet... ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD!! What we could not obtain for ourselves.... HE DID IT FOR US AND GAVE IT TO US FREEEEEEELY!!!
Check this out.... Grace is other-wordly! Embracing it is being HOME!!! You can't believe it or understand or accept it when you try to use your dumb mortal brain that you were born into on this planet!!! ... That brain has been filled with so many man made ideas that seeing Grace through a religious mindset is just impossible... why??... Because It is SPIRITUAL... FROM ANOTHER REALM... THE REALM THAT IS OUR HOME!!!!!!! THE REALM WE ARE FROM!!!!! IT IS THE LOGIC OF HEAVEN!.... GRACE!!!!
Thank you for sending me that!!
God is GOOD!! AWESOME!"
He gets a little excited :bigGrin: Blessings.
Awesome.
Grace is indeed unmerited/unearned favour.
Eph 2;8,9 " For you have been saved by grace through means of faith, and this has come to pass of the freegift of God,
NOT FROM YOU, not from works lest anyone should boast."
2 Cor 10;17,18 " He that boasts, however, let him boast in the Lord; for not he that commends himself is approved, but he whom the Lord does commend."
Quote from: Ross on June 29, 2012, 11:30:43 AM
Awesome.
Grace is indeed unmerited/unearned favour.
Eph 2;8,9 " For you have been saved by grace through means of faith, and this has come to pass of the freegift of God,
NOT FROM YOU, not from works lest anyone should boast." E
2 Cor 10;17,18 " He that boasts, however, let him boast in the Lord; for not he that commends himself is approved, but he whom the Lord does commend."
You know what, it just FINALLY dawned on me last night what being saved through faith means. Of course, in traditional church ET circles it means if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God,
you will go to heaven. Well I've known for a long time that isn't right. But until last night I never really understood... all we have to do is have faith in Him and HE will free us from our sin! We just repent, have faith, and He sets us free! How simple... yet it took me 11 years to get it. LOL!
Jabcat, the prodical story came to mind when I was asking God why we had to be subject to this tragic life that seems to rain sufferring and death. I was sort of mad at Him. Now that I see the necessity of it (it changes us, opens our eyes) i am more at peace, but what really wowed me was the Father's response when the prodigal returned. The Father knew he would come back and was ready for him (fatted calf, ring and robe all waiting). The Father didn't even respond to the son's apology--it wasn't necessary. The Father knew the son had to go, but all the while he knew he would return, like all His children who now are on that prodigal road of futility, He knows that we also are coming home, and we will be changed during the journey. The party when we get there is gonna be a big one. Until then, abide in faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is love.
Deena's comments on the Prodigal Son Story
Lomarah's sharing of a slow (11 years!!) but sure opening of the eyes
Ross's Scriptures Eph 2:8,9; 2 Cor 10:17,18
Jabcat's sharing of friend's "...this INCREDIBLE Gospel of GRACE."
Thanks so much for very comforting reminders (1 Thess 4:18 ...comfort one another--1 Thess 5:11 ...comfort and edify) the word "comfort" includes encourage, instruct, exhort... God bless, anna
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
Do you believe sometimes God allows a believer to fall/fail, for our own good?
There may be different scenarios, but say one is drifting a bit, letting some things slide, getting a little cold/indifferent. Do you think God may expose our weaknesses (in our weakness, His strength is shown as perfect) so we will again "recognize" and turn to Him - again "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith"?
Or do you think some other process(es) may be involved when a Christian falters? Or maybe a combination of things, i.e., what satan intends for harm, God intends for good, Him using satan as His tool to ultimately accomplish His good purposes in us, etc.?
Thoughts? Scripture?
Martin Zender wrote a book about this called Flawed by Design, in which he makes the argument that God created us as flawed finite beings so he could express his love and grace.
Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility - when I'm "trying to figure it out".
There's more that rises in the morning
Than the sun
More that shines in the night
Than just the moon
There's more than just this fire here
That keeps me warm
In a shelter that is larger
Than this room
There's a loyalty that's deeper
Than mere sentiment
A music higher than the songs
That I can sing
The stuff of earth competes
For the allegiance
I owe only to the giver
Of all good things
So if I stand let me stand on the promise
That You will pull me through
And if I can't let me fall on the grace
That first brought me to You
If I sing let me sing for the joy
That has bornin me these songs
But if I weep let it be as a man
Who is longing for his home
There's more that dances on the prairies
Than the wind
More that pulses in the ocean
Than the tide
There's a love that is fiercer
Than the love between friends
More gently than a mother's
When her baby's at her side
So if I stand let me stand on the promise
That You will pull me through
And if I can't let me fall on the grace
That first brought me to You
If I sing let me sing for the joy
That has bornin me these songs
But if I weep let it be as a man
Who is longing for his home - rich mullins
Quote from: jabcat on July 13, 2012, 08:45:15 AM
Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility
I think it's the only interpretation that doesn't cause contradictions elsewhere or questions God's abilities.
If God created a perfect Adam in the way many think what does that say about God's skills/insight.
First He claims Adam is perfect; which means holy and without (the seed of) corruption like Jesus of Himself.
Then just a few verses later we see God kicks out Adam because he obviously didn't act very holy.
What happened?
a] God intended to create a Jesus like Adam but failed because of a design flaw and/or being outsmarted by satan?
b] Things went exactly as designed. Meaning "saw it was perfect" simply means everything fitted perfectly in the big Masterplan?
c] It was good because it worked as designed including the free will component that soon spread like a virus?
I think no Christian goes for option a.
Options b and c although not the same thing can't be discussed in depth without at a certain point in that discussion entering the forbidden zone of free will.
If the total lack of free will is a fact then obviously the answer is a very clear b]
If not a lengthy discussion is at hand :P
I've been leaning toward the idea that Gen 1 is the new man. Gen 2 is the old man. After Gen 2:3, the change in outlook on the earth and man is different. There is no man to plant, no helper for man. It is not very good.
Either way I don't believe God messed up with Adam.
If we believe God is indeed omnicient and omnipotent, the Adam turned out the way God planned, including his creation and fall. There is a very interesting article about the free will issue on remnantbiblestudies.com (or is it .org?).
These articles Deena?
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/intropage_freewill.html
Yes, that is the one. For me it answered some questions that helped to solidify my belief that God works all things according to His will. He does not allow us to hijack it. This analogy came to me about it--a child being pushed in a stroller may have the naive delusion that he is making it move, when in fact the parent is the originator of it all. God is the originator of it all and He will have His perfect will, and thank God, not my will. Have I trod on fragile ground?
Fragile yes, but at this point I think we'll survive. :smile:
You and Tony are almost talking about it without directly referencing it. :laughhand:
That last post was a :first:
The parable of the 100 sheep has a free will component.
Think about it....
Quote from: Deena on July 14, 2012, 05:23:26 PM
Yes, that is the one. For me it answered some questions that helped to solidify my belief that God works all things according to His will. He does not allow us to hijack it. This analogy came to me about it--a child being pushed in a stroller may have the naive delusion that he is making it move, when in fact the parent is the originator of it all. God is the originator of it all and He will have His perfect will, and thank God, not my will. Have I trod on fragile ground?
I think not because nobody disagrees God is a Parent :-)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2012, 09:05:55 PM
The parable of the 100 sheep has a free will component.
Think about it....
So does the prodigal son... think about it... :winkgrin:
I think we have the ultimate choice in whether
we are at peace with ourselves or not
I can choose to be at peace with myself
even in the middle of a heated battle.
I can choose to be at peace with myself
while hearing bad news or sad news.
I can be at peace with myself even though
God has put all the responsibility for being at peace with myself
in my court.
The inner court.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 13, 2012, 09:07:17 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 13, 2012, 08:45:15 AM
Yes nf, I often entertain that as very real possibility
I think it's the only interpretation that doesn't cause contradictions elsewhere or questions God's abilities.
If God created a perfect Adam in the way many think what does that say about God's skills/insight.
First He claims Adam is perfect; which means holy and without (the seed of) corruption like Jesus of Himself.
Then just a few verses later we see God kicks out Adam because he obviously didn't act very holy.
What happened?
a] God intended to create a Jesus like Adam but failed because of a design flaw and/or being outsmarted by satan?
b] Things went exactly as designed. Meaning "saw it was perfect" simply means everything fitted perfectly in the big Masterplan?
c] It was good because it worked as designed including the free will component that soon spread like a virus?
I think no Christian goes for option a.
Options b and c although not the same thing can't be discussed in depth without at a certain point in that discussion entering the forbidden zone of free will.
If the total lack of free will is a fact then obviously the answer is a very clear b]
If not a lengthy discussion is at hand :P
I know I may be treading on a very delicate subject here, but cannot this same viewpoint (as applied to Adam) also be applied to Lucifer?
In order to be at peace with my self I have to be at peace with God.
The Holy Spirit reveals to me that no matter what I might imagine.
God is at peace with me.
I have the free will to be at peace with myself.
This being at peace has nothing to do with the physical world.
It has no effect on the past present or future.
What is a fall if God and I are at peace?
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/free-willall-sovereign-and-the-trinity-discussions/
Sorry I did not read the rules as if they were pertaining to me.
Now that I read them they make sense.
Thank -you.
(peace)
Quote from: dajomaco on July 25, 2012, 09:25:30 PM
Sorry I did not read the rules as if they were pertaining to me.
Now that I read them they make sense.
Thank -you.
(peace)
Not just you brother, a good reminder for us all and another chance to work through it a little bit. Thanks :HeartThrob:.
I keep thinking about that whole topic, as it is a troublesome one, for sure, i.e., how in the world to talk about such important concepts without just ticking each other off with vague, slippery, argumentative terms. The thought that's come to me is this; "I was in weather today". Or, "when I was outside today it was hot for awhile, then the clouds came up, and it rained a little bit and cooled things down".
So "I have free will/I don't have free will". Or, "God requires me to make choices, He holds me responsible for my actions, He directs my steps, my will needs to yield to His, His will be done". I.e., what does the weather
look like, what did it
do? :2c:
I sure hope that helps, because it truly is an ongoing dilemma, as it's such important topics, while at the same time, certain words that can be used have shown to just aggravate and cause arguments. Maybe if we keep hashing on this, we'll one day figure out how to handle it. I admit to not knowing how to handle it perfectly. :NewB1:
:gimmefive:
In my philosophy an omniscient God is love and as Yeshua, God incarnate, accomplished his mission on earth when he came to take the sins of the world upon himself. Thus, there is no sin and no sinner born.
I therefore do not believe an omniscient omnibenevolent God would allow us to fall just so he could watch. I think rather when we are challenged in life it is to recall the promise of God as denoted in the heart of the scriptures; we are gods and goddesses. And as such what we face in life helps us to use what we've learned as creators of our destiny and challenges us to learn more as we overcome our adversity.
Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.
When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.
Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.
Of course, this is my understanding.
Quote from: jugghead on September 06, 2012, 07:21:24 PM
Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.
When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.
Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.
Of course, this is my understanding.
Your understanding is my understanding as well.
Quote from: jugghead on September 06, 2012, 07:21:24 PM
Does God allow us to fall, I say yes, for the purpose of understanding. The knowledge of evil (sin) came through the law, but the knowledge of good (righteousness) came through Christ. We have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the tree contains both the understanding of evil (the understanding of sin and the understanding of law) and the understanding of good (the understanding of righteousness, which comes through Christ, not the law). We had to eat in order for us to understand the Father and who He is; that He is love; that He is righteous.
When we make the mistake of thinking that righteousness comes through the obedience of the law in order to avoid punishment, our own mind conceives the thought that if we are avoiding discipline, we are being righteous. This is what I believe to be the mistake of the Pharisees. They avoided punishment through the sacrificial law. But that law has now been done away with. So now, does our righteousness come through the obedience of the rest of the law? no, it comes through the understanding of Christ and who He was and what He did while He was here.
Righteousness (doing what is right) came through the example of Christ and the life He lived, acts of kindness, acts of gentleness, acts of forgiveness, acts of compassion, all contained and done through love for mankind. Righteousness comes through acts of love towards others, not through acts of obedience of the law.
Of course, this is my understanding.
I liked what you said here. My understanding as well.
Wanted to add some thoughts I had while reading your post.
God gave us laws to show us that we couldn't keep them good enough to save us and to make us see that we needed a Saviour. We cannot save ourselves by our works but by the works of Christ. To make us see that we are flesh and without him we can do nothing. That we have no reason to boast of anything.
CHB
The strange connection between sin, forgiveness, and love--
"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love."
--Luke 7:47
Quote
To make us see that we are flesh and without him we can do nothing. That we have no reason to boast of anything.
CHB
I would go as far as saying that we cannot even obey His laws, let alone try to be righteous without Him (without His spirit in us). It is just that with some people, His Spirit shines brighter than in others, His Spirit of righteousness in us, we are only the vessel that His Spirit shines. He is the flame that gives light, we are only the lamp that the light is contained in.
Rom 9;11 " They in fact, not having been born yet,
nor having practised anything good or bad,
in order that the purpose of God might stand by way of election,
not by works, but by Him that was calling."
vs 22,23 " And if God,
wishing to show His anger and to MAKE KNOWN HIS POWER, bare in much patience with vessels of anger already fitted for destruction,
in order that HE MIGHT MAKE KNOWN the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory."
vs 26 " And it shall be in the place where it was said to them
' you are Not-My-People!'
there they shall be called Sons of a Living God."
Without the hope of a resurrection this would all be meaningless.
With the confident assurance of a resurrection In Christ, this seems to clarify why we are here to learn about our Father with practical demonstrations of what to do and what not to do.
yeah..the vessel marred in the potters hands..sin entering it..fitted for destruction..while of the same lump making a vessel of mercy..to show His Glory
way back..in my early 20"s...I heard this...you can learn the easier way..by listening to me..or the harder way...but learn you will
So are the vessels of destruction and the vessels of mercy are the same? By not destroying us we become vessels of his mercy?