My thoughts on christian/american prudery and nudity vs violence in TV/movies.

[DanielB]

There are some things that sometimes bother me about how people(christians, americans, or the world in general) see the issue of nudity or sexualization in media(TV, movies, videos, etc). I was just thinking about this for a little while and I have a desire to express these ideas in hopes that it might inspire someone to see the issue differently(in a hopefully positive way). I don't know how many people share my perspective in this and for those who don't, please don't interpret this as condemning. This is not intended to make anyone feel condemned nor am I trying to call out anyone's "sin" since in many cases no sin has been committed but I think most people have not seemed to connect the dots when it comes to these issues(I don't have it all 100% correct or figured out either, and I assume that even for those that are morally in the wrong, I have likely done worse) I am sorry if this is put together in a sort of disjointed way, but I will get right to it.


My slowly growing concern about christians(and people in general, but especially christians) is that there seems to be more and more casual acceptance of nudity(whatever the context) in media and what equally disturbs me is the often misguided reasoning/response from many of us who are against it(being against it for the wrong reasons).

For example, many christians, and not just "nominal" christians say that they like watching things like Game of Thrones or so on or even that it is their favorite show(that show is just one of many examples). I don't just assume that they are ogling or lusting after any of the people in it, but it bothers me to see that the dots appear unconnected. Of course, many christians rightly decry the nudity and its acceptance, but for very misguided reasons.

In my opinion, at least, the problem is not nudity itself(nudity is a very good thing in and of itself) but the fact that it is almost always is connected to the act of showing nudity. The thing that disturbs me about nudity in media and why I try to abstain from watching anything that has it, is the fact that almost all nudity in media involves, to put it plainly, the prostitution of actresses/actors, and I want to avoid it in respect of the dignity of those actresses/actors(even the actors, despite there being no chance of me being tempted to ogle or objectify). Those actresses(and actors) may not be innocent helpless victims, I am guessing that most are just willing to prostitute themselves for the substantial amount of money offered to them, but that does not mean that I lack a desire or even a duty to respect their inalienable dignity and I consider the fact that they often end up regretting exposing themselves to thousands or millions of people, and I have even heard of people going christian and being distressed over the fact that their images are still used in such a way.

Despite this, discussions about the issue are too often focused basically on whether it is ok to see nudity itself or not, as if the goodness of God's designs(which includes the invention of wonderful bodies) were up for debate. I could watch a cartoon/anime or play a video game that had nudity(not including real actresses) in good conscience since nobody is being prostituted to make those(although I avoid sexualized depictions of female nudity regardless of whether it involves the prostitution of real women or not, since it is a cause for negative temptation for me).

Grey areas and exceptions...
All this being said, of course there are exceptions and grey areas when it comes to showing real nudity("real" meaning that real people are being exposed in videos, which obviously includes actresses acting out scenes). There are some grey areas like when it is unsexualized nudity, I don't have all the answers and don't know what to think about that, but most nudity(in movies/shows I mean) is sexualized and certainly a form of prostitution, even when it claims it is trying to be "raw" or "artistic". It is worth noting that there are probably many cases where the director or producers or whoever is calling the shots, is naive to what they are doing and have innocent or even good intentions(like maybe they are honestly trying to portray the human body or sex in a beautiful way, and misguidedly take it to far, not realizing potential emotional consequences of exposing a person's body to millions of people), so we shouldn't presume the intention behind it unless it is obviously "fan service" but that doesn't affect whether we ought to be complicit or not, since we as christians are hopefully less nieve about the potential emotional or spiritual consequences that might have for the actors/actresses.

Then I think there are more clear exceptions where I see nothing wrong with it, like showing nude tribespeople in a documentary or something. There isn't anything wrong with the nudity itself but when people are being paid to expose themselves(especially with sleazy intentions), it becomes a problem, that is the whole point I am trying to make here.

I do recognize that not everyone see it that way but I want to encourage people to consider all this if you haven't. I am sure I can be overly cautious or scrupulous sometimes and I am not sure whether it is right for me to be watching some things so when I can't watch something with a clear conscience, I don't watch it.

There are some cases where I wonder whether I would actually be complicit or if there is no good reason not to watch something. For example, the movie "Office Space" is very funny in my opinion and I have watched it a few times, but it has one part where it shows a topless woman from an instructional breast exam video for like 1-3 seconds. So I ask myself whether I should still watch it and just look away or not watch the whole movie out of indignation or respect or "How much disrespect, if any, was even done towards that woman?". I think I would probably watch the movie still in good conscience(and simply divert my eyes at that part) if someone wanted me to watch it with them, that is an example of a sort of a relatively mild grey area. We also have to ask ourselves where we should draw the line and it isn't always totally clear to me since the issue isn't nudity but sexualization or objectification of real people, and that doesn't necessarily have to involve nudity anyway.


For these reasons, I agree with the priorities often attributed to americans, that nudity or sexualization in movies or shows is typically a bigger problem than the violence, since the violence is fake and nobody gets hurt, but the prostitution is real and harms real people. However, I also believe that it is equally misguided to make the issue about nudity itself(as some sort of abstract concept that forgets the person behind it) rather than respect and compassion for the people paid to expose themselves for sleazy reasons. Christians often seem legalistic about this. Maybe some of you may misunderstand me as being legalistic but if I am in error, it is a matter of scrupulosity out of concern for the dignity of others, not over rules that are detached from people.


I am happy to read any thoughts any of you have on this whether you agree or not.

[jabcat]

Hi Daniel.  I'm not sure how connected this is to UR, we'll see  :laugh:.

I think you bring up a good point about exploitation.   :thumbsup:

Maybe I fall into your "prude" category, but some other things I think of;  I believe nudity and overt sexuality can lead to lust, which can (for some, most vulnerable) lead to unrealistic (fantasized) expectations, delving into pornography, marital/relationship problems, even fornication/adultery.  Marriages have ended as a result. 

I'm reminded of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure...think on these things".   Also Ps. 101:3, " I will set no wicked thing before my eyes..".

Also, I'm sure they uncovered during intimate and private moments together, but when their eyes were opened, Adam and Eve covered themselves up.   :2c:  Blessings.

[MusicLover123]

I just started reading a book called "Escacy of Loving God." You know what is interesting, is that Eden literally means "pleasure." The same word is used for delight, and even Psalm 36:8

8They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures

It will get into mystical experiences and stuff, but I realize that most don't understand or minimize what it means to be fulfilled, and rejoice/delight, and have joy and love(escacy) with God. I am realizing that salvation is more than just getting away from punishment,  that people typically portray salvation as. Have I had any experiences? No, but I want to.

Probably off topic, so back to the main one. When you think of nudity, what benefit is it to show it? Can anyone honestly say(other than God) that they don't lust at all when they see it? If not, what do you think the benefit is?

When we are made perfect, in heaven, this won't be a problem. But for now, as we wrestle with the flesh, and principalities and powers, we need to be careful on what we delight ourselves in.

[Dandelion]

My Catholic school background, my personality, my translation of God's word, and my lack of time for such things that are not productive or edifying, leaves me now as someone who rarely watches television, or a movie. I do enjoy my Pureflex on my computer. I am content this way, at this present time in my life. Not that I don't like to watch some videos and shows, but time is a big factor for me, still teaching at 63 years old, and my life of trying at least, to minister to God's people, when I can, which isn't as much as I would like to, has me at this place in time, and I am at peace. I read the news on my phone, from all different newspapers and magazines, but, I am thinking that this is not enough.

I am a strong believer that sex is a glorious gift from God, but when used in the way and time he intended. It is a gift, given to us to be used in certain contents, I believe. Our bodies are not our own, but have been bought for a price....the price of Jesus on the cross. Whatever brings lust to our minds, is not the way God intended. It is very hard, I understand, for all or almost all of us, at times, to not be enticed to do sex our own way, but I don't believe that makes many things we see in our very over-sexed society a good idea. Many people seem to think that sex is not wrong because no one gets hurt, but I don't believe that is true. We all create the atmosphere of thoughts and norms in the society we live in. Casual sex has a high price tag, in the overall scheme of things. Just count the number of babies aborted for starters, not to mention the broken hearts and lives that come from it, the diseases transmitted, the families torn apart, the pain of abandonment.....it goes on and on.

Even if I were not a Christian, I think I would feel basically the same way, for many practical and personal reasons.

Yes, jabcat...."whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure...think on these things".

I agree.

D.

[DanielB]

Maybe I fall into your "prude" category, but some other things I think of;  I believe nudity and overt sexuality can lead to lust, which can (for some, most vulnerable) lead to unrealistic (fantasized) expectations, delving into pornography, marital/relationship problems, even fornication/adultery.  Marriages have ended as a result. 

I'm reminded of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure...think on these things".   Also Ps. 101:3, " I will set no wicked thing before my eyes..".

Also, I'm sure they uncovered during intimate and private moments together, but when their eyes were opened, Adam and Eve covered themselves up.   :2c:  Blessings.

I am not using the word prude to insult or to totally define a person but to name a problem. I can't read your mind or judge whether you are prudish just from what you said, I see no reason to think so. I use the word as a name for the tendency to see sex as a negative or shameful and or dirty thing in their heart regardless of whether they claim with their mouths "sex can be a beautiful thing" or "I'm 'sex-positive'." A person that does notspeak, act, or trust(in their heart) that God's design for both sex and the human body are very good, is who I would consider prudish. It is probably a pretty idiosyncratic definition, and I think most if not all people can be at least a tiny bit "prudish" at times(including myself). I chalk it up to our "fallenness" and the devil. I think that if the devil's/demons' goal is to screw things up and if they are very active in the world, it would make sense that they would want to encourage people(especially christians) to think that sex wasn't good, just a necessary evil, that we shouldn't have too much fun or appreciation for good things, or that following God is all about boredom and asceticism and harp music and having pleasurable sex is exclusively for sinners. I am not saying that it should be what we pursue the most in life.

Many people would label those with true biblical values about sexuality, to be a bunch of prudes. I think some of the biggest prudes in the world(at least by my idiosyncratic way of defining it) must be pornographers/pimps, porn actors/prostitutes, and others that many people may mistakenly assume to have a high view of sexuality. I used to watch a lot of porn(I don't permit myself to watch it anymore and have lost a desire to), and funnily enough, I was a huge "prude" and I don't think I would have watched it if I wasn't. Those involved in that form of prostitution are the first to say that sex is dirty and naughty(even if they don't realize that they are truely expressing what they think in their heart) and speak all kinds of filth during the sexual acts. Many people have a constant obsession with sex and constantly lustful, but feel shame and negativity around sexuality. After I refused to watch it anymore and succeeded, I slowly began to change as if the perversion was withering away and my sexaul desire changed frome selfish desires to desire to express affection and to do good. Of course, many christians misinterpret God and the Bible to have a low or neutral view about sex, but I think the biblical principles are meant to keep sex a very good thing. I think many self-proclaimed "sex-positive" people are probably rightly running from a past of seeing sex as ugly, shameful, bad, or neutral but they often go too far and encourage things that go against God's design, so long as it is consensual.

As for Adam and Eve, I wonder if there is a distinction between "nakedness" and "nudity" in hebrew like there is in english(or at least used to be). I am under the understanding that in english, "naked" could potentially mean that a person is simply not dressed for the relevant situation(like being in shorts and a t-shirt without a coat in frigid weather or maybe an immodest person could be called naked).

Maybe I am mistaken about that, I just remember hearing it. It is possible that Adam and Eve simply didn't notice that they were nude, but it would make more sense if they already realized they were nude before but after acquiring a fallen perspective, started seeing themselves as unpresentable or immodest. I personally suspect that it was the skewed perception of the fall that made them want to cover themselves and hide rather than some sort of enlightened perspective(especially considering that as far as we know, only God, their spouse, and the animals were around so they had no reason to cover up for the sake of modesty at that time).

When you think of nudity, what benefit is it to show it? Can anyone honestly say(other than God) that they don't lust at all when they see it? If not, what do you think the benefit is?

When we are made perfect, in heaven, this won't be a problem. But for now, as we wrestle with the flesh, and principalities and powers, we need to be careful on what we delight ourselves in.

Assuming you mean nudity in media or immodesty, I don't think there is benefit in showing it. I think sometimes the nudity is not meant to arouse but to shock, like I recall looking at the parent review to a movie about slavery that had nudity in it, apparently to make it more shocking. If I were a director or producer or whatever, I would never use nudity in my movies or shows. Nudity can be implied when it actually serves the plot or account, so I see no benefit in showing it. I wasn't defending the use of nudity in shows/movies when I said that some people that are not informed of biblical principles show it without sleazy intentions, biblical principles/wisdom about sexuality can be counter-intuitive. I think that christian directors/producers should know better.

I admit that when I used to watch porn, I was "turned on" by any nudity of women, even non-sexual nudity. But after gaining back some control and discipline and integrity over my sexuality, I found to my surprise that I was no longer aroused by female nudity in certain contexts, like if I see a casually topless tribeswoman it does not inspire any more lust than seeing a pretty face(which is to say, none). Strangely, if I were to discover that the topless woman was actually american, I would probably have to immediately divert my eyes because my brain would likely interpret that as an intimate gesture. So what qualifies as intimate nudity is somewhat different in different cultures. I think Jerry Seinfeld has told a joke that if there was a culture where women wore nothing but gloves, men would obsessively want to see their bare hands!  :laughing7: I think that it is because when a woman shows parts that are considered intimate parts by her culture, it subconsciously or instinctively signals intimacy to a man. It is almost like someone confiding their deepest secrets to you, like someone trusts you, and that feels good. Of course, I think the fall screwed this up where our instincts or subconscious is often confused or misled. If a man pursues lust and is in the habit of ogling women to lust after them, it skews or subverts this where the man lusts whenever he sees female beauty, even in a non-sexual context, and the extent to which this happens depends on how strong the habit is and how much it is reinforced. I used to be that way at least. That being said, I still divert my eyes when necessary and it is not like I go looking for naked women on national geographic or anything. I am certainly not completely invulnerable to being tempted by nudity, especially when it is meant to titillate, so I don't mess around with it.

I am a strong believer that sex is a glorious gift from God, but when used in the way and time he intended. It is a gift, given to us to be used in certain contents, I believe. Our bodies are not our own, but have been bought for a price....the price of Jesus on the cross. Whatever brings lust to our minds, is not the way God intended. It is very hard, I understand, for all or almost all of us, at times, to not be enticed to do sex our own way, but I don't believe that makes many things we see in our very over-sexed society a good idea. Many people seem to think that sex is not wrong because no one gets hurt, but I don't believe that is true. We all create the atmosphere of thoughts and norms in the society we live in. Casual sex has a high price tag, in the overall scheme of things. Just count the number of babies aborted for starters, not to mention the broken hearts and lives that come from it, the diseases transmitted, the families torn apart, the pain of abandonment.....it goes on and on.

Even if I were not a Christian, I think I would feel basically the same way, for many practical and personal reasons.

Yes, jabcat...."whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure...think on these things".

I agree.

D.

I don't know how I could even go on living if I lost my belief in Jesus but I agree that if I stopped being a christian, I would probably still want to live a monogamous life at the very least(to avoid a lot of heartache).

[marie glen]

Amen to all of the above.

Personally, I too am not offended by natural tribal nudity in a documentary and usually (I presume) it's not overdone, focused on, etc. But as to the modern world's obsession and portrayal, my dominant thought has always been.. don't people realize the person being ogled is someone's daughter, or sister, etc? So I'm definitely with you there.. And it seems very sad to me.

Yes, it seems like the extremes are so much more prevalent than truth and logic which knows the act of love is a sacred, joyful and intimate thing meant for the union of marriage as God designed it.

But this (along with the apple! :laughing7: ) gets a bad rap by folks (and teachings) - yes, I have read before that the forbidden fruit of Eden was sex. I mean, really? How does "be fruitful and multiply" fit into that!?

Back in the late 70's and 80's it was interesting, to me anyway, that the word used to label(?) describe(?) Babylon the great is "pornos".. And what I saw in the world was a veritable flood (rev.12:15? note 14 & 16! reading the chapter as a stand alone insert). A flood had been unleashed upon the world - of a previously hidden social phenomenon. Then the world began to use sexuality to sell.. sell.. sell.. all things. "To sell" is another meaning of the Greek word "pornos"..

The reason I'm thinking about this is how in this thread the side effects of the so called sexual revolution, the dissolution of family, thus the foundation.. heartache, escalating despair(as addictions, suicide, all rising) aimlessness, sexual perversion, abortion, sex slave trade.. Then I see the harlot, Babylon the great holds a foaming cup of her unchasteness ("enchantment") which she will have to drink down the fullness of.. the cup of her foaming side effects will play out.. her destructive quality likely influences all 7 continents (hills ), ie, gone global.

Well, as usual one of my favorite rabbit holes - seeing Bible prophecy alive and big as you please in the days and the world we live in, of today..

Now we have exposure of another kind, shown via the ",me too" movement... A sad witness.. but also.. I remember all the college setting movies like "Animal House".. What did the culture think would happen? I'm not saying sexual harassment of any sort is ever okay. I'm just saying you can't push all this and then be totally indignant in what it produces. Just sayin' women - not the victims of sexual harassment - but generally speaking, women also contributed.

Somehow women's lib talking points evolved from "exploitation" - when's the last time we heard that phrase? Applied to portraying women as sexual 'objects'? All of a sudden Sarah Bernstein, lead feminist, was on camera at the playboy mansion decked out in the famous bunny outfit. I never was much of a woman's libber, but definitely not after that trend got going.. Then for a while it seemed like the only important societal freedom anymore had to always do with sexuality. I had a close friend at the time who blamed all society craziness, even violence on porography. As for me I saw it as a brainwashing tool. Including college kids going to classrooms half asleep from partying the night before. Minds very pliable to infuence.. Like two revolving spirals mesmerizing/"enchanting", then reflected in ppl's eyes.

[In the "last hour " ten divisions of a world institution turned beast.. will devour/deplete the harlot - aka, capitalism gone extreme(?) and having embraced "pornos" to "sell! sell!").. socialism (also extreme?) will (finally) devour capitalism..? (Thus also unfortunately, free market. It's like there's two usa's, Rev 12:14 & the capital of Babylon the great :( with second being like the famous image of a snake devouring itself.. (in more ways than one).

[DanielB]

Yeah, I can't understand how on earth many feminists have come to the conclusion that porn/prostitution is somehow empowering or liberating. I can understand how women being able to have casual sex without being looked down upon could be perceived as liberating by someone that does not believe in the Bible, but they might as well say that slavery is empowering. Many feminists are against it though. Some feminists certainly seem to make more sense than others, the frustrating thing is the use of generalizing and alienating language making it sound like they think that men are the enemy or there is a war waged by men collectively against women. I suspect that many probably believe it and many are probably just unaware of what is sound like to others(sort of like how the new testament talks about how "the jews" killed Jesus and how that could be misunderstood by biblically illiterate people to be antisemitic) it would be easier to tell who is or isn't a "feminazi" if they were more careful about how they word things. I think that many need to realize that whatever is bad for women is pretty much equally bad for men, a war on women is a war on men and vice versa, I think there is a war on relations between men and women waged by spiritual enemies or fallen nature, thankfully, most people don't seem to be buying into it at this point in time.

I don't know a lot about the history of it and all the issues involved but I have heard pretty much all bad things about the "sexual revolution". I doubt things were going very well before though, I wonder what the cause was. Based on what I have heard(not just from progressives), I wonder if too many people being looked down upon and shamed or generally mistreated for promiscuity contributed to it. That is one more reason why many societal problems can only be solved by spiritual transformation by Jesus.

I think your friend was probably close to being right about porn's influence on society. I wouldn't say that society would be super great without it or that it is the cause of all problems but I think it is an extremely corrupting influence, especially considering that a person's sexuality it such a huge part of us and whatever can corrupt it can just about corrupt the whole person. I can understand why staying away from prostitution was one of the first priorities for new believers in the early church(described in Acts).

[jugghead]

Seeing all this from a different point of view may help some to understand. In the garden, Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, if we view naked as unrighteousness, then we see that they were unrighteous and unashamed ..... and is this not the way of the majority of the world?

Now look at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but see it as a whole, the whole of mankind, like when we use the example of a family tree ..... that the TOKOGAE is the family tree of mankind, the leaves are a picture of self righteousness and the fruit of it is judgment, they ate of man's judgment of what is good and what is evil ..... therefore when they ate, their eyes were opened that they were the cause of the death of the tree of life within themselves (within their own garden), which can also be understood as the death of Jesus Christ within themselves.

But what they haven't eaten from yet is the tree of life, the risen Christ, from where true righteousness comes from, that when we eat of the judgments of God, which are the fruit of the tree of life and we know that they have a corrective motive, not a death motive .....

which by all of this we can come to understand that we all go through this process of eating of mans judgments which cause the death of Christ in ourselves and others, whereas when we eat of God's judgments, they bring life, bring Christ to ourselves and others.

this is the short version, there are a lot more details to this.

My  :2c:

[marie glen]

Yeah, I can't understand how on earth many feminists have come to the conclusion that porn/prostitution is somehow empowering or liberating. I can understand how women being able to have casual sex without being looked down upon could be perceived as liberating by someone that does not believe in the Bible, but they might as well say that slavery is empowering. Many feminists are against it though. Some feminists certainly seem to make more sense than others, the frustrating thing is the use of generalizing and alienating language making it sound like they think that men are the enemy or there is a war waged by men collectively against women. I suspect that many probably believe it and many are probably just unaware of what is sound like to others(sort of like how the new testament talks about how "the jews" killed Jesus and how that could be misunderstood by biblically illiterate people to be antisemitic) it would be easier to tell who is or isn't a "feminazi" if they were more careful about how they word things. I think that many need to realize that whatever is bad for women is pretty much equally bad for men, a war on women is a war on men and vice versa, I think there is a war on relations between men and women waged by spiritual enemies or fallen nature, thankfully, most people don't seem to be buying into it at this point in time.

I don't know a lot about the history of it and all the issues involved but I have heard pretty much all bad things about the "sexual revolution". I doubt things were going very well before though, I wonder what the cause was. Based on what I have heard(not just from progressives), I wonder if too many people being looked down upon and shamed or generally mistreated for promiscuity contributed to it. That is one more reason why many societal problems can only be solved by spiritual transformation by Jesus.

I think your friend was probably close to being right about porn's influence on society. I wouldn't say that society would be super great without it or that it is the cause of all problems but I think it is an extremely corrupting influence, especially considering that a person's sexuality it such a huge part of us and whatever can corrupt it can just about corrupt the whole person. I can understand why staying away from prostitution was one of the first priorities for new believers in the early church(described in Acts).

...I'm reminded of those other religions.. they were very sexual! I'm sure we've all heard about ancient 'temple prostitutes' including some male ones.. and they and the practice were thought to be sacred.. Promoted by those same enemies - spiritual, and flawed human nature. And Canaan of course was sacrificing (resulting unwanted?) children and babies.. Sex and violence..

The biggest UR connection, I think, is how ET encourages atheism! Which, you know, if there's no God, then who decides what's good and not good? Or what works from what really doesn't work well at all. Who sits in the seat of God deciding good from evil, once we (humanity) in our imagination, kick Him out of it?!

UR, on the other hand, communicates the real God - who is Love.. is Life itself, who's Mercy is neverending/has no end.. His true character, and also His true attributes of almighty (all capable, "savior of all") and "perfect". Infinitely good. Infinitely able. Infinitely wise! The whole hell thing, as we know, smears His image. Repels. And thus is despair, addiction, suicide, all on the rise.. Not only from ways which are inherently 'cursed' or as Paul said "bring death", but because humans NEED God.

I always got the impression ,(too) that one reason for the sexual revolution was a rejecting the idea that sex was somehow wrong and shameful. But that's how the adversary works.. all sides of an issue, so usually things move from one pole/extreme, to the other. Maybe the idea sex was bad was a reaction to the gay 20's?

But then, with the idea (theory, "strong delusion"? false prophet?) of godless evolution as the original if life, well then I guess there's no reason to think one way of doing things is better than another.. so culture more quickly fell away from the faith. The adversary trying to wash it right from off the Earth..

I figure about 50% of the people (targeted) are not being hoodwinked though! And UR is making an impact! Actually, I believe there are two harvests occurring.. that great one of believers, being transformed into His image of love and simple, wholesome wisdom, and the world, referred to as "grapes of wrath".. The fruit of good and the fruit of not good.. both maturing "until the end of the age".