Progressive Revelation

[Seer After Truth]

I have now been in the UR "camp" for just over a year now.  So in the last few weeks, I have been contemplating posting some ideas that I have for how to make UR a truly acceptable (that does not sound quite right to me, but bear with it for now) doctrine of Christianity - rather than looked at as heretical. 

Anyway, since I posted here http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-creation-account/ on the creation account the other day, in response to Julie's comment to my bringing up progressive revelation, I thought we could continue a discussion along those lines.

First off, one of the challenges we all face is the fact that each one of us is the only one with the thoughts, experiences, understanding, etc. there has ever been to have the thoughts, experiences, understanding, etc. that we have.  Think about that one for awhile.  So whatever I say, think, understand, etc, is my own from my own life and no one Else's.  This is what makes everything so interesting.  So whatever I say here is the result of me doing and not someone else's, which can make the communication process a challenge.  That explains why people disagree so often.  We do not have the same understanding that someone else has, which is why we are to relate through love by deliberate action, offer grace, etc.

So if you disagree or do not understand, that is all right with me!  I will try to understand your disagreement or try to explain myself better in order to be better understood.  My occupation is Accountant/Governmental Auditor, so I have to be able to know things in a way that minimizes misunderstanding and fosters understanding, before there can be agreement/disagreement. 

A quote from the Universalist's Assistant I just discovered a month ago is amazing:  On page 15 (Page 22 of the pdf version I have) states

Our only protection against error, which involves guilt, is diligence and faithfulness in examination, an unprejudiced and candid spirit in weighing testimony, and sincere and fervent desires to know and receive the truth, whatever it may be.  If, with such a spirit, we fall into any error, it will not bring guilt upon our souls, nor will God condemn us for it.  But if such is not our course, the spirit and temper of our minds, and our desires, we shall bring guilt upon our own souls, if we fall into error, and subject ourselves to the rebukes of the Most High.  And even if we escape all error and attain all truth, it will secure no reward, because it will result from circumstances, not from our own endeavors after it.

Progressive Revelation:  One of the things I have done over the years is to seek to understand the scriptures or statements about God in a more simple manner.  In a way it was by accident.  I would hear things said and would ponder what things meant.  Until I had a true faith experience after September 11, 2001 (almost literally a month later), I believed in God and such, but it was a very untried and shallow thing, if you will.  So as I came along with God, I learned how to pay better attention to what I was supposed to learn and do.  So I would think about specific verses of scripture or statements by individuals of whom I was reading.  Then at some point, a deeper meaning would arise in my heart of whatever was on my mind.  For example, Paul's statement in Ephesians about obtaining more wisdom and revelation.  Well wisdom seemed fairly straight forward, but the revelation, well what did that really mean.  How I understand revelation right now is as understanding.  Of course, it is divine understanding, or understanding not from ourselves, but from our faith in God.  It also begs the question, if Paul says we are to seek revelation, does he then not assume it is a possibility at all times moving forward?  This can get into the gifts of the spirit did they cease or continue and that to me is not taking Paul's statement simply as the truth of what we are to do.

So I have come to the place that revelation is understanding.  My understanding has broadened as well, as I see that all of life is a progressive revelation if we will just pay attention.  The story of humanity is one progressive revelation.  Our knowledge has been a progressive revelation.  It is like a law of the universe:  Everything starts out simple and progresses to more advanced levels.  Just think about your own life and you being a child, teenager, young adult, middle aged (that is where I am now) then older...  You are naturally progressing in your understanding of so many things. 

I am not going to be able to finish this tonight and I do not get very often to write but I want to discuss this further.

William

[ded2daworld]

This is just an aside. "Progressive Revelation" is a term used by Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Scientists.

" It also begs the question, if Paul says we are to seek revelation, does he then not assume it is a possibility at all times moving forward?"

It would be possible to move forward at all times if we were never fooled, never sinned, and were perfectly attuned to the Almight and knew when it was either a force of darkness or light that was "revealing" to us.  :Chinscratch:  :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

This is just an aside. "Progressive Revelation" is a term used by Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Scientists.

" It also begs the question, if Paul says we are to seek revelation, does he then not assume it is a possibility at all times moving forward?"

It would be possible to move forward at all times if we were never fooled, never sinned, and were perfectly attuned to the Almight and knew when it was either a force of darkness or light that was "revealing" to us.  :Chinscratch:  :Peace2:

I didn't know that, thanks. Sounds almost like politics. :laughing7:

[bushy]

It would be possible to move forward at all times if we were never fooled, never sinned, and were perfectly attuned to the Almight and knew when it was either a force of darkness or light that was "revealing" to us.  :Chinscratch:  :Peace2:

Of course we learn from our mistakes too, probably especially by mistakes. Otherwise we'd be going backwards faster than forward.   :wink3:

[JulieTang84]

Progressive Revelation means that Father keeps revealing himself over a period of time. There is a lot of negative press (justifiably so imo) regarding the term "progressive" but let's not forget that our puny little minds could never hold all that Father has to give.

Even Paul taught progressively:

1Cr 3:1
Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

1Cr 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Hbr 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Please do not lose sight of how Father has his message taught and how he Spiritually reveals himself for the sake of a word or two: Progressive Revelation.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seer After Truth]

I first want to say (not as an excuse as such) that when I wrote above, it was after a long day and I am not at my best in the evenings...

Anyway, one thing about me is that I am better at taking what someone says and using that to help clarify some of my own thoughts!

As far as groups like the mormons, jehovah's witnesses, etc.,  I would say that even Islam falls in the same camp.  This is the area in which people in general tend to (this is my personal opinion) throw the baby out with the bath water.  I think that Julie was thinking along the lines of where I am.

When I look at (maybe a better term would be personal rather than progressive - but do not take that in terms of private, not subject to testing, etc.) revelation in my own life, it is a mixture of good and not good.  So on the one hand, and I am very hesitant in some ways to discuss it like this, Universal Restoration was and has been the most significant revelation to me so far in my entire life.  It has been a fundamental shift in my heart, and it is so deep within that I cannot fathom ever going back to the belief in eternal conscious torment (I never thought annihilationalism was it either) .  I can only attribute the change to God and definitely not to myself.  The quote I gave in my first post from the Universalist's Assistance says so much because I have become very conscious of the fact that my particular circumstances are the horse while I am the cart so to speak in terms of where I am.

On the other hand, God also reveals to me things that I do not like about myself or allows me to hurt people in my life because of my sin.  To see the gulf between God and his oneness/integration and me/humans in general and our dis-integration has been thoroughly enlightening.  I use the word disintegration in a double sense, one in disintegration and the other as the opposite of integrated.  I have much other thoughts on Sin and such, but that is enough for now.

When I said we are always moving forward, the reality is that with UR, I believe we are always moving forward, but like I said above, it is both good things and bad things.  Meister Eckhart said that God is drawing all things to His oneness and everything else is moving against it (Not sure exactly how he said the second part but you get the point).  I have had to learn that the struggle with the World, the flesh, and the adversary is where we are to be, not perfection!  In fact, it was very clearly shown on Mother's Day this year to me that when I am trying to gain God's favor with my behavior, I am trying to earn my own salvation!  Talk about humbling...  So to learn to rely on Him and persevere through ourselves and our challenges is the focus for me.

Enough for now.

William

[onlytruth]

If God showed us all his truth in a moment , we wouldn't be able to handle it, so progressive is a good term and a good thing :)

[shawn]

UR is not considered heretical by all denominations of Christianity.  Some Methodists are very open to the notion.  Some believe Wesley came around to UR in his elder years.  I believe the Methodist official wording concerning UR goes something like...there are good arguments on both sides of this debate.

[Lazarus Short]

Anyone who doubts the progressive manner in which God has revealed Himself and His Ways to man, has only to consider the arrival of Jesus in the world.

[marie glen]

UR is not considered heretical by all denominations of Christianity.  Some Methodists are very open to the notion.  Some believe Wesley came around to UR in his elder years.  I believe the Methodist official wording concerning UR goes something like...there are good arguments on both sides of this debate.

How very interesting! I didn't know that! (Interesting thread too :)

[eaglesway]

There is truth, and truth is reality, and the reality is hard to swallow sometimes. What is alternatively called "truth", but is not real, is easier to swallow because where man holds the reins there is no cross to bear. There is the camp and there is outside the camp and there is the outside the camp that has become the new camp LOL.

But let God be true and every man be a liar :o)

He will be ALL IN ALL!