The love of Christ, what exactly is it?

[Shadow]

Having been on several kinds of forums it seems as if people have a rather questionable and skewed idea of exactly what the love of Christ is

When I went to church regularly, I often heard this expression being talked about, and even prayed a few times, that I personally may experience the love of Christ in my heart (TBH I wasn't sensing it as often as I would have hoped for, in many others, but I'm not criticizing them, as I didn't think I had it myself although I truly wanted it)

Admittedly, although I'm really confused right now, I cannot for the life of me see how quotes like this can be viewed, as showing forth "the love of Christ"

I have more peace about hell now than ever before. My experience with universalists, has helped to bring about that peace!

The honest reason is, I fully understand why GOD will cast the souls of universalists into a burning hell. They truly deserve to be there. So now I have far more peace about the fact of hell than ever.

:eek: :omg:

I've always personally suspected, and imagined it was something more across this kind of thinking and reasoning

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1Jn 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jn 4:20  If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21  And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.



All I know is that I truly want all mankind to be saved one day (I've tried to change this way of thinking but I can't, If anything the feeling gets stronger every day), I know that the bible speaks of being deceived (and I can understand why many christians could perhaps be alarmed initially, that it could be some kind of deception), but what I can't understand is why Christians would be so UPSET once they hear that perhaps there isn't such a thing as an eternal torture chamber for the vast majority of humanity after all, before I ever heard of this concept, I was always under the impression that deep down christians yearned for the salvation of all mankind, but more and more from the behaviour I'm witnessing on some other forums, it appears as if nothing could be further from the truth :sigh:

I don't know if I'm slowly and surely eventually getting somewhere, but the arguments made for eternal torture are starting to sound more and more utterly absurd and totally nonsensical, it really is a case of it being a completely indefensible doctrine

[WhiteWings]

I have more peace about hell now than ever before. My experience with universalists, has helped to bring about that peace!

The honest reason is, I fully understand why GOD will cast the souls of universalists into a burning hell. They truly deserve to be there. So now I have far more peace about the fact of hell than ever.

I still don't understand why they hold such a grudge against UR....
All denominations have have different views. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many...
Mainstream denominations see 'the others' as wrong or mistaken.
But UR is heresy.
The I understand it most all denominations believe almost exactly the same thing.
Over simplified perhaps but I would summarize their differences as:
a] God calls a few and all called will respond.
b] God calls all but only a few will respond.
c] God calls all and all will respond.

If "a" would call both "b" and "c" a heresy I would understand. But they only call "c" a heresy. :dontknow:
"c" attributes the most power and success to Father/Son/HS. Why is that so wrong?
The only thing I can think of is hate and selfishness. They don't want to share in the riches of Heaven.
They are spiritual racists.

[sparrow]

Hi Shadow,
I posted most of this already on another forum. but your post reminded me of it, so I thought maybe this might fit here as well. This was in response to a bunch of christians who were talking about not worrying about other peoples souls and how they only really worry about their close family members.. and one person even said something like "only worry about YOU!" This was talking about God eternally torturing folks, to put this in perspective.  :surrender:



Those who understand that our Father is THE Good Shepherd, not just A Good Shepherd but THE Good Shepherd and that HE is doing what He says He will do, reconciling all men, and EVERY knee will shout out with GREAT PRAISE that Jesus is LORD!

Those who understand this have a heart for ALL MANKIND. They CARE about ALL mankind. They are CONCERNED about ALL MANKIND. Not JUST their loved ones, not JUST their wife or their sister or brother or mother or next door neighbor... NO. But for ALL Mankind. Those who understand the glorious truth of God's love for EACH and EVER human being, and that EACH and EVERY human being is being reconciled, those who understand this and have FAITH, their hearts LOVE, and I mean LOVE not just those closest to them, but it extends to EVERY MAN. The people they once counted as their enemies are enemies no longer because they see them AS GOD SEES THEM.

At first, I too, only was concerned with my loved ones. Then God started making me think of other people out in the world. I almost had a near nervous breakdown because I could barely stand to look at ANY STRANGER because all I would think is MY GOD! Is this person going to suffer torture for all eternity?????  God kept putting on my heart, these people. Then I started thinking about my enemies. MY GOD! Please... no please save them. I don't dislike them anymore. Please, please save them Father! This went on for quite a while. It was in torments and HE delivered me. Slowly but surely, he gently, patiently, and lovingly walked me through it. He put me through the fire and burned off the things in my heart that was preventing me from loving others. He slowly but surely showed me the true picture of His love for ALL. My tears turned to laughter at the beautiful gospel of Jesus. The layers started to peel off. The veils started to fly off of my eyes and most especially, my heart began to be filled with an indescribable LOVE for ALL mankind. Imagine that. ME! Loving so many people that I couldn't stand. ME! Loving so many people that I would normally roll my eyes at. ME! Loving these people who would get under my skin. Actually LOVING them. Not just TOLERATING them, but LOVING them.  It's amazing.


I used to have all sorts of enemies (in my own mind), and God enlarged my heart. I don't look at them with disdain. I look at them through the eyes of LOVE. I see them as our FATHER sees them. HIS beloved children, making them MY precious brothers and sisters. One day, the dross WILL BE burned away from ALL of us. The carnal man WILL be cast into the lake of fire. That is a GOOD thing. God's love is a transforming love.

Again... GOD'S LOVE IS A TRANSFORMING LOVE.

It is your evidence... Look at a person's heart.
And you will see what spirit currently resides.
God is no fool.
God will not be defeated.
He knows what he is doing.
He has a master plan.

Is your heart large enough to encompass all mankind.. or only large enough to encompass your loved ones and those close to you?

Is it because you believe that God will destroy his enemies by eternally torturing them?? And so you can't bear to care for any more people who may be suffering eternal torture?? Perhaps this is the reason. Well, that has your heart trapped in a prison. YOUR heart shrinks or grows to BECOME like the God you worship. God only saves a few, you can only MANAGE to love a few. God saves all, you can manage to LOVE ALL.
God saves all, your heart BLOSSOMS into a truly beautiful, love filled thing. It's amazing, brothers and sisters. It is simply AMAZING. I want everyone to experience this love. I LOVE YOU. You are my brothers and sisters. I CARE ABOUT YOU. I care about your sadness, your fears, I care about your loved ones. I care about your CONCERN for your loved ones. I am only on this message board to SPREAD my testimony of what GOD did for my heart! I want everyone to be able to look at their fellow mankind through these eyes, too.

It's understandable, though. I understand fearing caring for someone who may be tortured for all eternity, because that causes fear. There is no fear in perfect love. Perfect love casts out ALL fear. God loves us ALL with a PERFECT love, brothers and sisters.


God is the GREAT TRANSFORMER of MEN's HEARTS.

Once you experience this life-changing heart surgery, you will NEVER be the same. The darkness FLEES. and everything becomes crystal CLEAR.
God loves us, ya'll.....

Those who don't see the truth of God's love for all... y'know what?
It is what it is. There is a reason you don't see it. But I will continue to SPREAD the GOOD NEWS. Because how can I NOT?

How else can I repay my Father for opening my eyes and enlargening my heart and DESTROYING my enemies?

HA! Do you understand that now????? HE DESTROYED MY ENEMIES.
By making them my friends.

So before you go getting too confused about "christian's" views and "Christian" responses... peel off their "christian" label and look at their HEART. Because that is what God pays attention to, too. Not their label, but their HEART.

Pretty soon, the fruits of the spirit will become clear.

PEACE.

[sparrow]

And here is another long one...
but it's something else that I wrote once and saved it.
These are just my thoughts...
Just my perspective...just something to ponder a little.
that's all.
nothing more.

Now, first let me just say that I see all as my brothers and sisters and all false beliefs will fall off of them one day. I rejoice in that picture in my mind. I know that we all go through different things in our lives and no-one is better than anyone else. We are all brothers and sisters, some SEE something that some of their other brothers and sisters do not see. Why don't they see it? Plenty of reasons but I bet part of it has to do with their "heart" condition. Again, we all go through difficulties and who knows what may have brought on a person's particular heart condition. We're all in this together. We are family. Some have found the light, others just haven't seen it YET.. but they will!!  :HeartThrob:

I believe that all who believe in the doctrine of eternal torment have either one or the other
-OR- fall somewhere between -these two types of hearts:

1. a hardened heart... one that pushes away the thought of others burning and being tortured for all eternity. Their hearts are hardened, a wall has been built up to push away the pain/terror of it all. These people are not "Cold", their hearts have just been hardened. That's all. They have become numbed and unfeeling in regards to others, in that regard. They have pushed it so far down, that their hearts cannot be touched. They are tight lipped and steely-eyed. This is a way of protecting theirselves. They say things like "we all have a choice". "It's sad, but God gives me peace over it." "They made their bed, they must lie in it..." "Who am I to question God?", "The bible says it plain as day, it's right there, there is no excuse for them". This type of heart does NOT love his neighbor (the way God says to love them). It is impossible. Because if they LOVED others (in the way God commanded), they would not only fear their fate, they would be suffering night and day over this. So their hearts are indeed hardened. These people are God's children, they are not cold to the core. They are not. They are glorious children of God, however... their hearts have a big wall built around them. Their hearts are Hardened. There is absolutely NO question. They are NOT loving their neighbors the way God commanded. LOVE. It's not just a word. It's the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. We're not talking love in delicate sense, here. LOVE your neighbors is the command. LOVE. meaning looking past their faults to see the human inside that is just like you. But they cannot. Their heart is hardened. It is a form of protection. They are still beautiful children of God, and in fact it is BECAUSE of their LOVE for others, that have caused their hearts to become hardened. They have GREAT, GREAT love for others, but it has been pushed down and buried. Stay with me now...


The other type of heart is one that has not yet been hardened:

2. a heart that is not hardened. One that suffers in their mind, one that suffers in their heart for others who may go to eternal torment. There are several here on this forum who believe in eternal torment, who I feel have more of this type of heart, rather than the "hardened heart".A heart that is desperate, absolutely just suffering that there will be some who are tortured forever. A heart that does everything they can to SAVE people from this horrific fate. A heart that suffers for others... A heart that does as Jesus commanded... a heart that LOVES his or her neighbor.

I believe all people who believe in eternal torment have various stages of these two types of hearts going on. Some people have moved completely into the first heart. The hardened heart.

For others, who have more of the 2nd type of heart right now, they will either take that heart all the way to the BRINK... or they can instead, eventually become the hardened heart. If they take it to the brink... if they LOVE their neighbor as theirself as GOD COMMANDED... then this love that they have for their neighbor will GROW, and when it grows.... when more of Christ fills their heart, and the "carnal heart" is DISPLACED.. their heart will do one of two things. It will not be able to handle anymore, the dotrine of eternal torment, because the LOVE in their heart will take it to the BRINK. Either that person's heart becomes hardened, or it becomes BROKEN. God works with the BROKEN HEARTED. God will take you to the very END of yourself, in order to lift you up. A heart that is taken to the brink is one that suffers and LOVES others, one who sees their enemies as no longer enemies, but as brothers and sisters, as humans. A heart that is taken to the BRINK is one that God has taken THROUGH THE FIRE. We must be salted with fire.

This second heart...can find truth. This second heart will be the one who finds the truth of our loving Father who is the saviour of ALL mankind. It is not for the meek. This fire is a consuming fire. It WILL consume you.

The first part of my life my heart was more like the first heart. I never found peace, I never found Jesus, I never found the gospel. I had a vague belief in Eternal Torment, but it was very vague because of what everyone ELSE had to say about God. I never really looked into it. It never made sense. so I kept God at arm's length. It wasn't until God brought me to the end of myself.... and I was loving my neighbor as fiercly as I could, my enemies were no longer my enemies, I was CONSUMED with the thought of EVEN ONE person going to hell. Day and Night, I suffered torments, fearing and worrying about every single person I saw. Of course, my loved ones. But then my coworkers, strangers, associates, even all those in Hollywood that I couldn't stand, it wasn't until God brought me to MY KNEES and showed me: "Look at the faces of these people, You will see the faces of strangers. The faces of sinners. But if You look at the blood shed, it is red! It is like yours! It is just like yours!" IF this sounds familiar it is re-worded from the funeral scene in Mississippi Burning. Google it on youtube and watch it. You'll understand.

It wasn't until God took me through this.... This is why the two commands are to LOVE God with all of your heart, and to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.  It is a great path to truth.

You must LOVE God with ALL of your heart. That heart that fears your loved ones going to hell, that part of your heart does NOT love God. It cannot. God is trying to take you through something to show you something.

Love your neighbor as yourself. If you loved your neigbor as yourself, your heart WILL be taken to the brink... your heart will be go through the fire that it needs to go through in order for God to take hold of your heart and show you the way. No how far your heart needs to go to that brink is personal. Between you and God. There are different reasons why some accept it quicker than others. We are all unique, all different! It doesn't matter how far you need to go, God is there with you holding your hand.


I already know what some of the responses will be to this. I understand BOTH types of hearts. BOTH types of hearts...I understand. I have had both. I love you all as my brothers and sisters. Perhaps you may see some of yourself in either one of these hearts, or in both hearts. I do pray that God's will be done, and that He will take you through the fire and show you *HIS* beautiful heart.

Remember brothers and sisters, as you reflect on your answers to my questions these things which are true of our Lord:

God is love. PERFECT love.
Perfect love casts out ALL fear.
There is NO fear in perfect love.

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Until these and many, many, many other verses JUST LIKE IT ring true in your heart so profoundly, that you finally DO UNDERSTAND them... only then will you know that JESUS, our LORD IS who He says He is. Only then will your heart be exceedingly glad. Only then will you have the "PEACE THAT SURPASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING". These are not just nice "slogans".... but GREAT TRUTH. These verses.... will come alive like never before:

These verses, they will bring forth a multitude of praises and unbelievable LOVE for our Father and LOVE for your neighbor. EVERYONE. LOVE for EVERYONE. Not JUST your loved ones. Not JUST your friends. But for STRANGERS. People you don't even KNOW. People you used to DIDN'T LIKE! You see them, as GOD sees them. LOVE becomes PARAMOUNT in your life. Everything, from now on... God slowly changes your heart into HIS HEART. That is the beauty. The more CHRIST fills YOUR HEART, the more your carnal heart becomes DISPLACED. This is why you start to TRULY LOVE all. Just as HE DOES. This is why the two COMMANDS are:
1. Love the Lord with all your heart.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
The reason why Jesus GAVE these commands...and the reason why He sayd "my yoke is easy, my burden is LIGHT" because ONCE God has taken your heart through the fire, you understand. My GOD!! MY GOD!! YES!!

Sorrow is turned to laughter.

Father is waiting for you... will you take his hand? Will you look at those around you and see their blood is red just like yours? Will you look at the faces in the crowd... and see yourself? If you do, you are at the beginning of God's most awesome journey he has in store for you...


Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This glorious future picture will come alive in your heart and in your soul like NEVER before:
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


Peace to you, brothers and sisters.

With much, much love and gratitude...
sparrow

[WhiteWings]

"only worry about YOU!"

Isn't there a verse similar to: Work out your own salvation with trembling.

At first, I too, only was concerned with my loved ones. Then God started making me think of other people out in the world. I almost had a near nervous breakdown because I could barely stand to look at ANY STRANGER because all I would think is MY GOD! Is this person going to suffer torture for all eternity????? 

You where an ET but at least cared for others. (as commanded by Jesus) So imo you where a big stp ahead of the first quote. The problem I have with ETs is partly that they are wrong. But the largest problem is that they enjoy the destiny of others.

[Beloved Servant]

" they enjoy the destiny of others."

So pathetic, yet so true.
My stomach is upset over these words.

[sparrow]

"only worry about YOU!"

Isn't there a verse similar to: Work out your own salvation with trembling.

At first, I too, only was concerned with my loved ones. Then God started making me think of other people out in the world. I almost had a near nervous breakdown because I could barely stand to look at ANY STRANGER because all I would think is MY GOD! Is this person going to suffer torture for all eternity????? 

You where an ET but at least cared for others. (as commanded by Jesus) So imo you where a big stp ahead of the first quote. The problem I have with ETs is partly that they are wrong. But the largest problem is that they enjoy the destiny of others.

Yeah, I didn't last long believing in ET. To be honest the thought of ET was what made me ignore God for a large chunk of my life. I held him at arm's distance. Then I started to get to know Him, but the ET teachings... I couldn't reconcile it and well, going through that fire was just my own personal journey to truth.

You know I think that there are some who DO enjoy thinking about their enemies suffering.
God said to love your enemies. They aren't understanding the point behind that.
Instead of destroying their enemies (by loving them) they want to ACTUALLY   :hammerhead: DESTROY THEM! :Shoot: (well, more than destroy, they want them to be tortured forever.)
A definite hardened heart. That's why some hold so tight to the teaching of ET, because if ALL are saved, then that means their enemy (or enemies) are saved. Some people can't handle that.
Because they can't see other human beings as their brothers and sisters.
They want PAYBACK. Instead of forgiving (As Jesus commanded) they would rather hold onto their hate and unforgiveness and think about their enemies suffering.

Also, some folks don't understand the futility of sin.
They see people out there "sinnin' and having a good ole time!" and they are resentful.
They think "well, it's not fair, I have to be GOOD and I don't get to sin! so all those people sinning and partying... well, them ending up being tortured forever is JUSTICE! So now I feel much better about not being able to join in the fun of all that good ol' sinnin'!"  :mshock:
seriously, y'all know that there are people out there who think this way.
Sin has power over them.
They don't realize it's dead.
futile. no life in it.
But they keep lusting after it and they feel deprived.

"it's not fair.." Those are the ones you see screaming "oh, so you universalists are saying that people can just live however they want!! and they get to do whatever they want and they are still saved??!!! :talkangry:   ha. you see that? "they GET to" It's very telling. They don't know what "LIFE in Christ" is... They are still dead in this world.

The reasons why people REJECT UR are very revealing.
Just listen to what they're saying and you will start to understand WHY they reject UR.
Everyone has their reasons, and they are usually pretty transparent once you let them talk for a little bit.

But... every knee will bow.
Their enemies will become their friends.
They just can't see that.

Everything is going to be all right.
Some folks are just in more darkness than others.

we just have to keep shining the light.
We're all here to learn.
We're brothers and sisters.
Even though some of us don't realize it yet.
They will in time.
And they will be EXCEEDINGLY GLAD to have all of that ugliness drop off of them.  :HeartThrob:

It's good news.
nothing BUT good news.

[WhiteWings]

"it's not fair.." Those are the ones you see screaming "oh, so you universalists are saying that people can just live however they want!! and they get to do whatever they want and they are still saved??!!!    ha. you see that? "they GET to" It's very telling. They don't know what "LIFE in Christ" is... They are still dead in this world.

There is another thread on blasphemy/rejecting the HS.
Moments before Jesus died He said: "Forgive them Father they don't know what they do."
Those people clearly rejected Father/Son/HS. They lived their live in sin. Jesus forgave them.
And those people didn't commit the unpardonebly sin by saying "Buzz of HS"
No they tortured the Son of God to death. Sounds even worse than not paying your tithe.
Get what I mean.....?

[Beloved Servant]

Here:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW14.htm

[Tim B]

I have more peace about hell now than ever before. My experience with universalists, has helped to bring about that peace!

The honest reason is, I fully understand why GOD will cast the souls of universalists into a burning hell. They truly deserve to be there. So now I have far more peace about the fact of hell than ever.

:eek: :omg:

How can people say that??? It's disgusting, twisted, and certainly <i><u>NOT</u></i> love!!!! Anybody who actually has peace about Hell, doesn't grasp the concept.

May God show them love, so they can truly love God and others in return!  :bigGrin:

[Shadow]

Thanks for what you've posted Sparrow, I can relate :HeartThrob: , I once wasn't even concerned about my loved ones (at least not genuinely), only myself, so I could easily have defended the normal ET arguments that were made, I mean as long as I was secure, thats all that really mattered

I agree wholeheartedly with WW, when he says it's hate and selfishness, I know that's true cos I once was there, I wanted people to pay for the life I had until one day early last year when an amazing thing happened......

BS I agree, it's upsetting to think that people can be happy about this :sigh: , to me personally, nothing could make me more miserable

I saw a you tube segment on hell and it affected me in a way I never thought possible, I really grasped the concept and began to realize that this is serious, and it has to be faced, I could no longer mentally backfile this concept any longer, if just one person has to face something like this, then it's a nightmare far worse than anything that could be faced in this lifetime, so I went on a mission for answers

TimB, that's by no means the first post I've even seen like the one I've quoted, it is however one of the most brazen and outspoken, many others hint at this, rather than spell it outright (such an attitude is so vile, that words can't adequately express how I feel :sigh:)

Anyway the problems I had before somehow seemed insignificant compared to this, I mean what does it matter that I've never known true acceptance and friendship, or that to my immediately family the only time I'm ever thought of, is when they want something etc, etc, I mean I can now come to terms with that fact, the ONLY thing that matters to me, is that all will be saved one day, if not that then at least that there will be no one in eternal torture forever (annihilation), sometimes the lame excuses used to defend the ET doctrine have actually made me physically sick, I've had to spend the day in bed :mshock:

I disagree with christians that say we should be concerned about others but not worried, that's what one of the elders in my church said last year, I disagreed then, and disagree even more now, can't these people see that, this is all that matters, I mean of what importance is a mansion on a beautiful lake under a starry sky, with porcelain bath suites and jacuzzi's and a fancy cars, and all the comfort and material wealth in comparison to just one human being, this is the type of thinking that goes through my mind constantly, I want to love my enemies (I certainly don't want to see them in an infernal, eternal torture pit), I mean lets face it life isn't fair, thats just a cold hard fact, I mean not everyone is born with good looks, the same intellect, wealth and a silver spoon in their mouths, in fact what a travesty it would be for people born in poor countries that have to struggle each waking moment of their lives, and walk for miles just to find a few liters of drinking water, just for them to live for a few years to die and then suffer what the traditionalists would have us believe, one the other hand it would be tragic as well if someone who has had more in life than many of us have had as well, also to live, then end up the same way as well as the person who had to struggle :mshock: :dontknow:

[Shadow]

Here is a thread on CARM that's filled with the love of Christ and fills the tender hearted, loving christian heart with joy unspeakable and full of glory .....NOT

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=207524

I don't see it the same way and I find the OP (a militant christian) more repulsive than the person (an militant atheist) that the thread was directed at

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Sparrow and WW:
your lucidity is WONDERFUL! We are clearly called to "show the house to the house," and your posts are great!

Blessings,
Brian