Tentmaker Forum

 :icon_flower: Hi all! I'm new here. My introduction "Hello!" ended up being a bit lengthy as a few of us started discussing "origins, angels and aliens." So I've started this thread to CONTINUE the discussion and make it more accessible for all. Hope this is ok!

You can check out the questions that were being discussed in the previous thread and jump right in, over here, anytime!

Thanks for the chance to discuss these subjects with believers.
Sincerely,
Joyce :)

Aliens for some people are probably going to be a matter of semantics.  Anything unknown to us is "alien."  The universe is full of "unknowns."  Which of those can reach out and touch someone remains to be seen!  I'm not sure if the Bible says very much on the origins of angels, although there have been many assumptions.  I would wonder that if there were any Biblical answer to this question if it would be found not so much in the language of how you interpret "messengers," whether human or from another demension, but perhaps it would be in some of the Bible's language of wind, sound, and fire.  "He's made His messengers a flame of fire!" -- applicable to us and perhaps to others...

Right on, Martin! And since they come FROM GOD, and GOD Himself is a consuming fire....hmmmm!

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire...

then it stands to reason that their messages are the WORDS that God sends to us, they could be in fact the messages themselves, looking at it symbolically.......an embodiement of the WORD, the Sons of God, angels! Maybe that's where the term came from?

Still, we must "try the spirits" and by that I mean, "try the messenger" by looking at the message: because Satan himself can change into an angel of light!

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Something to think about in light of our previous discussion about angels!

Joyce :)

This is an interesting thread...I would like to add that I believe that there are different realms of consciousness which coexist with us.  Just because we can't always see proof of this......it doesn't mean it's not there.

Some proof of this resides in the large number of accounts out there which describe the different things people see when they've experienced "Sleep Paralysis".  Things like angels, fires, spiders, witches, and aliens, etc.... which would seem to come from the subconscious mind.

Sleep paralysis is a condition in which someone about to fall asleep, or just upon waking from sleep, realizes that they are unable to move or speak, but can still breathe and move their eyes. I like to call this "half-asleep/half-awake" stage the "twilight" stage. Your conscious mind has begun to drift into sleep but is not yet there, therefore you still retain a small amount of your waking conscious. It is a very transitory stage indeed, and one that seems to leave you "open" to certain experiences you would not otherwise be receptive to when fully conscious or fully asleep. It is also accepted by most researchers that although this can happen in any sleeping position, it most commonly occurs in the supine position (laying on your back).

Just thought this would be interesting to add to this thread.

Any thoughts??

 

H.G. Wells War of the Worlds and almost any other depiction of life from another world visiting us in our present state of technology plays into the truth of the human condition.

Anything capable of traveling to our planet from another world would be superior and able to destroy us.  However history has shown that "terrestrial" man will indeed seek to control and destroy other men so it stand to reason that we would expect other life forms to be the same.

So I see our perspective of "Aliens" a mirror to our soul.


If they do exist, God created them and they are just as much a part of his plan as we are.

Hi Stainedglass :)
When I was dealing with sleep paralysis, the only thing that would set me free was to be able to utter the name of Jesus. Sounds simple, but it worked and I was always grateful that I could count on it! The experiences were terrifying beyond anything that I can think of to this day. But your idea is interesting. I'll have to give this some more thought.

Paul, we were talking at one point about the possibility of alien life existing and their need for redemption, if indeed we are talking about actual living beings. I've always been curious about this subject. However, a person that I respect because of their diligence in studying the Word of God, has made the statement that he does not believe that they actually "exist" because "Eve was the mother of all living." Now I haven't been able to clarify what "exist" means to this person as yet, but I am wondering if you have any take on that statement? Clearly people are experiencing seeing something--but is this a "grand illusion" that is happening world wide? I am sceptical because of the "message" that they seem to be saying to the human contactees. And while investigating this subject recently in depth, flooding myself with as much material as I could find, I experienced seeing people of strong Christian faith, seemingly, overnight give up everything that they believed to be true about the universe simply because they heard a story about something an "alien" said! wow! My own faith, admittedly became shaken at one point, thinking that the lies might be true! I'm convinced now that they are demonic in origin. But I completely understand if that is not where you are at right now. It is an "earth moving" experience to look at ALL the "evidence" that is out there. And clearly...something IS going on! But what is its "origin?" That is the question!! Looking forward to your posts!
Sincerely,
Joyce :)

Enjoyed reading both your posts....Paul and Joyce. :bigGrin:  I agree that if it is real (in the sense of what we call "real")....it certainly means that there is a purpose for it.  I believe that God is above Reality (He is all Truth).  God is the creator of Reality. 

In response to the mention of H.G. Wells War of the Worlds... I've heard it said that just because something is classified as Fiction...it doesn't mean it's not true.  It just means it may not have happened yet.

I've always loved the depiction of the aliens in the movie/story Contact.  They appear as highly evolved spiritual beings that have an enormous degree of love.....and much to teach us about Life, once we're ready.  Sounds much like angels IMO.

I remember in the show....the X-Files.....they always said, "The Truth is out there".  This is what I've thought for quite some time, but now I believe that the Truth is within.

Quote from: joyful1 on July 02, 2008, 04:51:30 AM
Hi Stainedglass :)

Paul, we were talking at one point about the possibility of alien life existing and their need for redemption, if indeed we are talking about actual living beings. I've always been curious about this subject. However, a person that I respect because of their diligence in studying the Word of God, has made the statement that he does not believe that they actually "exist" because "Eve was the mother of all living." Now I haven't been able to clarify what "exist" means to this person as yet, but I am wondering if you have any take on that statement?

I believe I know this person you speak of and this person always reminds people of two things.  "The bible is a huge metaphor" and "Pay attention to the words"

The literal rendering of Genesis 3:20 does not use the word "was" but says

Gn 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.


I do not believe the bible  can be used conclusively to say that there is no other life on another world.  If there is life on another world, there is also no reason to believe they would be anything other than a world of humans such as us.


Could a figurative human live as the mother of all the living in existance?   Perhaps....

Quote from: joyful1 on July 02, 2008, 04:51:30 AM
Hi Stainedglass :)
Clearly people are experiencing seeing something--but is this a "grand illusion" that is happening world wide? I am sceptical because of the "message" that they seem to be saying to the human contactees.

I personally do not combine the accounts here of encounters with that being a true manifestation of any alien.   A planet that contains a race of human being may exist and we may never know where they are.  All encounters on earth could one day be proven false, that only proves that those people did not see aliens, that does not disprove the existance of them.

Quote
And while investigating this subject recently in depth, flooding myself with as much material as I could find, I experienced seeing people of strong Christian faith, seemingly, overnight give up everything that they believed to be true about the universe simply because they heard a story about something an "alien" said!

We humans are subject to deception, we are also subject to needing observation for our beliefs.  There certainly is not necessarily proof that these alien encounters are true, but there is evidence that can appear very significant.  If we believe that God is in control of all things, then these people are simply on a journey that God intends them to be on. 

Quote
wow! My own faith, admittedly became shaken at one point, thinking that the lies might be true! I'm convinced now that they are demonic in origin. But I completely understand if that is not where you are at right now. It is an "earth moving" experience to look at ALL the "evidence" that is out there. And clearly...something IS going on! But what is its "origin?" That is the question!! Looking forward to your posts!

The thing we as Christian people should understand.  we should not come to conclusions or teach conclusions that are not plainly written in scripture.

What I mean is that it is ok to contemplate what the interpretation of a group of scriputures might be, but we should not teach that we know for sure.

For instance,  some have speculated that 911 disaster in this country is paramount to scriptural end times.  While things may fit,  we cannot prove that it has to be.

However, it is plainly written that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all Mankind. Can we teach that as a bible truth proved in scripture, i believe so. 

Do you see what I am saying here?

QuoteI personally do not combine the accounts here of encounters with that being a true manifestation of any alien.   A planet that contains a race of human being may exist and we may never know where they are.  All encounters on earth could one day be proven false, that only proves that those people did not see aliens, that does not disprove the existance of them.

I agree....have you seen the lastest on what science has discovered regarding Earth's twin......and other planets out there that are much like our own.  Here is the link.....this was on MSN.com the other day as top article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25350155/?GT1=43001

Given the seemingly infinite number of stars in the universe with an even more numerous number of potential planets, the likihood of a planet similar to Earth should be quite high.

It would seem that the likelihood of life on another planet, which is much like ours, is high too!  Perhaps there are millions of worlds very similar to ours...and that's just in this universe.  Don't forget about the parallel universe theory.  Where does that fit into all this?

It all just boggles my mind!

Paul--
Yes, I get what you are saying! :)
Something that you said; human beings on other planets....that thought had NEVER occurred to me...that regardless of an alien race of beings (even if you believe they are simply demons in disguise)....there could be HUMANS out there! wow! never thought about that! And certainly they would be part of the "whole creation" that groans for the manifestation of the sons of God!

Paul, I am a disciple, a student. I am learning. I don't teach. So not to worry. I can give an answer for the hope that is within me, if someone wants to go there. But that is as far as I will go. I enjoy discussing things with like minded believers, but i don't consider that teaching either.

Stainedglass--
I agree....there is so much going on right now. I had to bring myself back up to light speed recently, having taken a long hiatus from galactic news and so forth! I was overwhelmed to say the least.
But in trying to put it all into perspective now....

1) there IS NOTHING new under the sun
2) nothing can separate us from the love of God
3) the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL TRUTH

Hey...this is amazing love, is it not, guys?  :)

Joyce :)

QuoteBut in trying to put it all into perspective now....

1) there IS NOTHING new under the sun
2) nothing can separate us from the love of God
3) the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL TRUTH

Hey...this is amazing love, is it not, guys?  :)

Joyce :)

It sure is!  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Hi Joyce,

I did not write adequatly concerning teaching. So I want to clarify that it was not directed at you, but I see that my wording caused it to be and I apologize for that.

I was thinking of Ray Smith on the assumption that may be who you were referring to in your post.

I like many of Rays teachings and he speaks with authority and has every right to conclude something, but the conclusion cannot really be proven, even though it may not be able to be disproven.  The aspect of the topic cannot be discerned properly only through scripture reference.

  I was only wanting to be careful that my own conclusions and how we might see others thoughts do not become to set in stone when scripture can only be inferred rather than directly stated.

Hope that made sense.  :)

Hi Paul!  :icon_flower: No offense taken at all! I totally get where you are coming from!

I feel that the subject of "origins, angels and aliens" is important for two reasons:

1-- I don't feel anyone really knows what they believe, until their beliefs are challenged....until their very foundation is threatened. This is one subject that will shake whatever CAN be shaken in your belief system, should you actually expose yourself to any significant amount of the evidence that is available.

2-- I think an annoucement is probably forthcoming to the general public concerning these phenomena in the not too distant future. If that occurs, then, I'd like to be of some use to others in sorting out the questions that will surely follow.

Thanks for your posts on angels and aliens...I'm going to go over them again tonight and get back with you tomorrow.
:JCThink:
Joyce :)

willieH: Hi brother Paul... :hithere:

I shall enter this discussion (btw, I am an "alien" ...nut... of sorts!)  :wacko2: :tease:

addressing your post, first...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 02, 2008, 07:39:04 PMI believe I know this person you speak of and this person always reminds people of two things.  "The bible is a huge metaphor"

This is an entirely CORRECT observation... the PHYSICAL or NATURAL is but a HUGE METAPHOR or REFLECTION of the truly REAL, which is in fact SPIRITUAL...

And the BIBLE which notes both, is found to reveal both in metaphorical terms...

QuoteThe literal rendering of Genesis 3:20 does not use the word "was" but says

and "pay attention to the words"

Gn 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Brother P... in "paying attention to the words"... we can only "pay attention" to the ones which are actually THERE...  If they are NOT THERE, then what attention may we "pay" to them?  :grin:

The truth is, that there is no "literal" word which is translated, "becomes" in this text... nor is there a literal word "was" (as is noted in the KJV)... the text only finds the words (in blue):

From Strongs Concordance:

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

All the other words are either gender observances, or characteristics of the word as best understood by the observer who is VERY inhibited by TIME and LOCATION factors which could potentially be found enhancing or deleting from that observance...

Translation from one language to another can often be found incorrect, for dialects and development of language at the moment, determines the actual meaning, and cannot be absolutely, conclusively and completely known, with so much time and location removed...

For example... You could go to Germany (I spent 3yrs there)... and find several variations of a given word being used as you move about the country, ...STILL being spoken in the GERMAN language, but differing in pronunciation, spelling, and even in deeper additional or inclusive meaning...  :dontknow:

The point is, that the word "WAS" or "BECOMES" in this text amounts to a point of view, VASTLY removed from the original LOCATION and TIME PERIOD... in which the TEXT was actually noted... 

QuoteI do not believe the bible  can be used conclusively to say that there is no other life on another world.  If there is life on another world, there is also no reason to believe they would be anything other than a world of humans such as us.

I agree with your first point here bro (red)... but of your second point (blue),

There is also no reason to believe otherwise brother Paul... GOD created INFINITE varieties on the earth... a dog is not a cat is not a mouse is not a tree is not a fish, is not a bird, is not a spider is not a human being...  :dontknow:

Because of the myriads of variations even within various species such as the Insect, Animal, Plant, Bird, and Marine Kingdoms, is reason enough to believe that there might be INNUMERABLE creatures which differ from humanity in the Universe.

If you will, the physical is but a REFLECTION of the SPIRITUAL... so what we see in the NATURAL and FINITE Universe, is only a MIRROR of that which IS in the SPIRITUAL and ETERNAL / INFINITE Universe...

That we can only see a VERY small portion of the FINITE Universe which we presently observe as PHYSICAL and NATURAL...  that SMALL portion of information, ...leaves INFINITE room for things to exist in the REFLECTED...  INFINITE and FOREVER palace of the living GOD, YHVH...

I love YHVH,  :LoveH1:  ...and can't wait to see His REAL "PAD", and all that's within it!  :omg:

willieH: Hi brother Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 01, 2008, 11:43:30 PM
  H.G. Wells War of the Worlds and almost any other depiction of life from another world visiting us in our present state of technology plays into the truth of the human condition.

Anything capable of traveling to our planet from another world would be superior and able to destroy us.  However history has shown that "terrestrial" man will indeed seek to control and destroy other men so it stand to reason that we would expect other life forms to be the same.

So I see our perspective of "Aliens" a mirror to our soul.


If they do exist, God created them and they are just as much a part of his plan as we are.

VERY WELL SAID brother P...  :clapping: :happyclap:

MEN, because of the NATURE or ability to DISOBEY, gravitate to that nature...

But "aliens", if they have not been created as such, could be as innocent as children, and not even KNOW what a weapon is, nor would even think to devise such a thing...  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi SG...  :mwink:

Quote from: StainedGlass on July 02, 2008, 06:59:11 PM
Enjoyed reading both your posts....Paul and Joyce. :bigGrin:  I agree that if it is real (in the sense of what we call "real")....it certainly means that there is a purpose for it.  I believe that God is above Reality (He is all Truth).  God is the creator of Reality. 

In response to the mention of H.G. Wells War of the Worlds... I've heard it said that just because something is classified as Fiction...it doesn't mean it's not true.  It just means it may not have happened yet.

I have thought this same thing Michelle... JESUS CHRIST died to redeem CREATION... if "aliens" do exist, then they are IN the CREATION... for the entire UNIVERSE and its ENTIRE CONTENTS, are subject to that Redemption and are in NEED of it...

"ALL THINGS" extends to and includes The UNIVERSE in its ENTIRETY...  :dontknow:

QuoteI've always loved the depiction of the aliens in the movie/story Contact.  They appear as highly evolved spiritual beings that have an enormous degree of love.....and much to teach us about Life, once we're ready.  Sounds much like angels IMO.

One of my FAVORITE Science fiction movies, written by ATHIEST Carl Sagan... I believe Carl was coming around to himself, in this final work...  :cloud9:

QuoteI remember in the show....the X-Files.....they always said, "The Truth is out there".  This is what I've thought for quite some time, but now I believe that the Truth is within.

Very true... that which is "out there" is everything in the NATURAL creation... and in that Natural creation, is found the OPPOSITE to the TRUTH... which is WITHIN...

"Out there" is just a tainted reflection of what is "IN THERE" and UNTAINTED...  :dontknow:

There just might be "aliens"... and there just might be a "war of the worlds" to come... before it is all over...  :mshock:

Quote from: willieH on July 04, 2008, 10:49:37 PM
Brother P... in "paying attention to the words"... we can only "pay attention" to the ones which are actually THERE...  If they are NOT THERE, then what attention may we "pay" to them?  :grin:

The truth is, that there is no "literal" word which is translated, "becomes" in this text... nor is there a literal word "was" (as is noted in the KJV)... the text only finds the words (in blue):

From Strongs Concordance:

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Hi, Willie.   All I can say is that I have not intentionally added words to scripture.  Using www.scripture4all.org I find 11 words total with strongs references in Genesis 3:20.   If there is a more accurate reference to Hebrew and Greek words of Scripture, by all means point me in that direction.


H7121 H120 H8034 H802 H2332 H3588 H1931 H1961 H517 H3605 H2416

The word in question is Strongs H1961 

H1961  hayah  haw-yaw

a primitive root (compare H1933);

to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere
copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished,
committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow,
happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.


EDIT:  Here is a link that shows a comparison of the manuscript text with the data from strongs concordance.

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/GR_Database.asp?bnum=1&cnum=3&vnum=20&getverse=Go



True, the word "becomes" is not a strict word for word translation, but it is more accurate that "was" since there does not appear to be a direct past tense definition.  But in any case from my source I have paid attention to a word that is there.

QuoteI do not believe the bible  can be used conclusively to say that there is no other life on another world.  If there is life on another world, there is also no reason to believe they would be anything other than a world of humans such as us.

Quote
I agree with your first point here bro (red)... but of your second point (blue),

There is also no reason to believe otherwise brother Paul... GOD created INFINITE varieties on the earth... a dog is not a cat is not a mouse is not a tree is not a fish, is not a bird, is not a spider is not a human being...  :dontknow:

Because of the myriads of variations even within various species such as the Insect, Animal, Plant, Bird, and Marine Kingdoms, is reason enough to believe that there might be INNUMERABLE creatures which differ from humanity in the Universe.

And I am not necessarily disagreeing with you,  I will explain in a bit more detail.  I am not trying to limit anything God can do, but wanted to emphasize that while what you say is  very likely, it is also just as likely that humans just like us exist somewhere else. Just because we can imagine something gives no special cause to think that intelligent life elsewhere would have to be different.  But of course it could be. 

I would say that the variety of thought when it comes to aliens for the most part is fueled by fear.  The vast majority of images of aliens that are made from the imagination have a center of intimidation about them.  Most often they are larger, more powerful, more evil looking. 

I had a dream of this once, and I wrote it in a Script, I can't find it, so I will re-write it but more like a short story with some script elements.

To make a long story short. The dream starts out as I am a little child named Kelvin.

---

American Country Road - 3:00 am

I am a little child named Kelvin, riding in a rear facing seat of a large white station wagon driving in the country. It is cold, and the windows were a bit frosty. Looking out the window, as a child would do, I was making picture when all of a sudden, in one of the areas where the window was not frosted due to my drawing, a small light appears and gets larger and larger until it is realized to be a comet or meteorite which roars over head and crashes into an old water mill in the middle of a field.

I scream with excitement, "Mom, did you see that! A real life meteorite! Can we see it!"

My mother anxious notices the building is glowing and perhaps on fire. "Kelvin, settle down. I want you to stay in the car..." She drives off on a side dirt road towards the old mill.

As she pulls up, a light orange glow comes from inside. I open the door quietly and jump out of the car to see the meteorite crash. As I run, my mom screams to me to get back to the car, but it is too late. I enter the mill and notice a small glowing rock and it is nice and beautiful.

"Mom! It is okay!" I yell back. I bend down and poke the rock with a stick, but the stick doesn't burn. So I get closer, and feel no heat, I bend down and lick my finger and touch it. It is cool to the touch.

"Kelvin don't touch that!" My mother finally catches up and grabs my shoulder. As she does so, I look up to the small hole that it created in the roof. It was perfectly round, as if it wasn't a meteorite but a laser beam that burned through the roof. I focus on the night sky through the hole and step between the meteorite and the hole, and instantly a brilliant flash of light comes down through the hole and I disappear.

My mother screams, "Kelvin!" as I evaporate into nothingness.

Fade out

American Country Road - 8:30 am

Fade in

Firetrucks and ambulances and police cars line up around an old white station wagon. Firemen running back and forth and policemen are getting statements from the mother.

I am field agent, of the Federal Bureaus of Investigations, missing persons unit. Routine has called me to this piece of nowhere where a child has gone missing, perhaps even murdered possibly by the mother. It was my job to ensure that  all the facts were in place.

I let the police take their statements, I will check those later. It is a shame really, this woman looks sincere about her story as they investigate her son goes missing but they aren't buying it.

A police officer takings a statement says to the mother, "So let me get this straight, you saw a comet."

I interrupt him, "She said a meteor,"

The police officer looks at me with some disdain, "Sorry miss, a meteor..." He looks at me again for sarcastic approval. "...flies through the sky and lands crash into the watermill."

"Yes," Kelvin's mother nods wiping her tears.

"Miss, their is hardly any damage done to the watermill, what you are explaining would mean there would be not much left, maybe even a crater." The police officer casts doubt on her story.

"I don't know why, but I am telling you the truth." She says between a small sob.

I believe her, a small voice inside me tells me that she is telling the truth. Why? Because I am a Christian, to be more exact, I trust the small whisper of the Holy Spirit concerning these cases and the Lord has not led me astray yet. In fact this isn't the first time I have heard such a story. Three of my last cases involved similar stories, but this is the first one that had involved a child.

I have done research on similar cases around the world, and although some elements of the story changes, the basic progression of the story remains the same. The conclusion, as some of my compatriots tell me, is possible alien abductions. Something, being a Christian, goes against everything I was taught but I believe something weird is definitely involved in this case.

I walk over to where the firemen have done checking the watermill for a possibility that the boy had fallen into a small water hole below the watermill. They had their diving unit and everything. I show them my badge and they let me in closer. "Find anything?" I ask.

"Nothing," The lead fireman relays his news, "It is deep, but basically if the kid fell in, we would have found him."

I nod, "Keep up the good work guys, thanks."

Crossing a police line around a small hole which is said to be where the kid disappeared, literally. I notice dusty footprints of the child, lead to the hole but not away. I look up instinctively and notice a hole in the roof.

"That is interesting." I say stepping over the hole to get a better look at what I am seeing. I see a small twinkle of a star... ...a bright flash consumes me.

Alien Space Craft - Time unknown

Strapped to a table, I cannot move. I have had these experiences before. They call them sleep paralysis. It is where the body is asleep while the mind is wide awake. Though, I have never had this experience on a cold metal table and rows and rows of bodies hanging from various wires and tubing all around me.

I try to speak, but I find I cannot say a word. That is when I noticed two dark figures approaching me from my left side. I cannot move, I do not even think they know that I am awake. All I can do is hope to God, that He is watching over me.

As the two figures approach it becomes very clear that these are not normal. They are two lanky gray beings with large fly like eyes. Definitely the things people call alien. They don't have mouthes, but I can hear their voices clearly. "This one is awake." It says.

I try to speak even louder, "In..." I get the first word out, "...the..." I work all my energy to say the phrase which has given me so much strength, "...Name..." I can feel my tongue wanting to fall back in my mouth, "...of..." one last Word, "...JESUS" as I say my Savior's Name, I can could speak clearly and with strength, "let me go!"

The two beings take a step back and instead of cowering in fear, they seem very much surprised. "In the Name of Jesus?" The creatures say together.

"Yes." I now sit up, realizing I am naked and probably about to be probed. "In the Name of Jesus, my Lord and Savior, ruler of all that is created you have no right over me." I turn my body ready to fight these things physically if I had to.

It was then, did I realize, I was actually out of body, and my body was still laying down. These creatures were both physical and spiritual, they saw both my physical form laying down, and my spiritual form sitting up.

"We did not know..." The one alien says by the spirit placing a hand out hesitantly to calm me down. "...He is our Lord and Savior too."

That is when they began to tell me of God, who had come into His own creation through His Son, Jesus Christ. Who had about 2000 years ago, raised from the dead and in fact filled the whole universe, just as Ephesians said He did. All of creation mourned, including these extra-terrestial beings, because they were all in bondage to sin, but then Jesus had set them free showing them the truth.

"So why do you kidnap us and experiment on us?" I said.

They both laugh lightly, that is when I realized that I was not being experimented on. It seemed we were being collected as pets of some sort. They explain that I was the first to ever address them, they did not know we even spoke in the spirit. They misunderstood our speech and screams as we would understand a cat meow.

"Will you return us all back to our home planet?" I asked.

"Yes, we will, we are sorry. We have good news to tell our homeworld, that Jesus is the Savior of all the universe!"

Then I find myself standing in a field with a million or so others from around the world. Others who also were kidnapped in the same fashion, from different times and places.

The End.

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

What a great story!  :cloud9:

Quote from: SOtW on July 05, 2008, 02:06:33 AM
I had a dream of this once, and I wrote it in a Script, I can't find it, so I will re-write it but more like a short story with some script elements.

To make a long story short. The dream starts out as I am a little child named Kelvin.

---

American Country Road - 3:00 am

I am a little child named Kelvin, riding in a rear facing seat of a large white station wagon driving in the country. It is cold, and the windows were a bit frosty. Looking out the window, as a child would do, I was making picture when all of a sudden, in one of the areas where the window was not frosted due to my drawing, a small light appears and gets larger and larger until it is realized to be a comet or meteorite which roars over head and crashes into an old water mill in the middle of a field.

I scream with excitement, "Mom, did you see that! A real life meteorite! Can we see it!"

My mother anxious notices the building is glowing and perhaps on fire. "Kelvin, settle down. I want you to stay in the car..." She drives off on a side dirt road towards the old mill.

As she pulls up, a light orange glow comes from inside. I open the door quietly and jump out of the car to see the meteorite crash. As I run, my mom screams to me to get back to the car, but it is too late. I enter the mill and notice a small glowing rock and it is nice and beautiful.

"Mom! It is okay!" I yell back. I bend down and poke the rock with a stick, but the stick doesn't burn. So I get closer, and feel no heat, I bend down and lick my finger and touch it. It is cool to the touch.

"Kelvin don't touch that!" My mother finally catches up and grabs my shoulder. As she does so, I look up to the small hole that it created in the roof. It was perfectly round, as if it wasn't a meteorite but a laser beam that burned through the roof. I focus on the night sky through the hole and step between the meteorite and the hole, and instantly a brilliant flash of light comes down through the hole and I disappear.

My mother screams, "Kelvin!" as I evaporate into nothingness.

Fade out

American Country Road - 8:30 am

Fade in

Firetrucks and ambulances and police cars line up around an old white station wagon. Firemen running back and forth and policemen are getting statements from the mother.

I am field agent,  of the Federal Bureaus of Investigations, missing persons unit. Routine has called me to this piece of nowhere where a child has gone missing, perhaps even murdered possibly by the mother. It was my job to ensure that  all the facts were in place.

I let the police take their statements, I will check those later. It is a shame really, this woman looks sincere about her story as they investigate her son goes missing but they aren't buying it.

A police officer takings a statement says to the mother, "So let me get this straight, you saw a comet."

I interrupt him, "She said a meteor,"

The police officer looks at me with some disdain, "Sorry miss, a meteor..." He looks at me again for sarcastic approval. "...flies through the sky and lands crash into the watermill."

"Yes," Kelvin's mother nods wiping her tears.

"Miss, their is hardly any damage done to the watermill, what you are explaining would mean there would be not much left, maybe even a crater." The police officer casts doubt on her story.

"I don't know why, but I am telling you the truth." She says between a small sob.

I believe her, a small voice inside me tells me that she is telling the truth. Why? Because I am a Christian, to be more exact, I trust the small whisper of the Holy Spirit concerning these cases and the Lord has not led me astray yet. In fact this isn't the first time I have heard such a story. Three of my last cases involved similar stories, but this is the first one that had involved a child.

I have done research on similar cases around the world, and although some elements of the story changes, the basic progression of the story remains the same. The conclusion, as some of my compatriots tell me, is possible alien abductions. Something, being a Christian, goes against everything I was taught but I believe something weird is definitely involved in this case.

I walk over to where the firemen have done checking the watermill for a possibility that the boy had fallen into a small water hole below the watermill. They had their diving unit and everything. I show them my badge and they let me in closer. "Find anything?" I ask.

"Nothing," The lead fireman relays his news, "It is deep, but basically if the kid fell in, we would have found him."

I nod, "Keep up the good work guys, thanks."

Crossing a police line around a small hole which is said to be where the kid disappeared, literally. I notice dusty footprints of the child, lead to the hole but not away. I look up instinctively and notice a hole in the roof.

"That is interesting." I say stepping over the hole to get a better look at what I am seeing. I see a small twinkle of a star... ...a bright flash consumes me.

Alien Space Craft - Time unknown

Strapped to a table, I cannot move. I have had these experiences before. They call them sleep paralysis. It is where the body is asleep while the mind is wide awake. Though, I have never had this experience on a cold metal table and rows and rows of bodies hanging from various wires and tubing all around me.

I try to speak, but I find I cannot say a word. That is when I noticed two dark figures approaching me from my left side. I cannot move, I do not even think they know that I am awake. All I can do is hope to God, that He is watching over me.

As the two figures approach it becomes very clear that these are not normal. They are two lanky gray beings with large fly like eyes. Definitely the things people call alien. They don't have mouthes, but I can hear their voices clearly. "This one is awake." It says.

I try to speak even louder, "In..." I get the first word out, "...the..." I work all my energy to say the phrase which has given me so much strength, "...Name..." I can feel my tongue wanting to fall back in my mouth, "...of..." one last Word, "...JESUS" as I say my Savior's Name, I can could speak clearly and with strength, "let me go!"

The two beings take a step back and instead of cowering in fear, they seem very much surprised. "In the Name of Jesus?" The creatures say together.

"Yes." I now sit up, realizing I am naked and probably about to be probed. "In the Name of Jesus, my Lord and Savior, ruler of all that is created you have no right over me." I turn my body ready to fight these things physically if I had to.

It was then, did I realize, I was actually out of body, and my body was still laying down. These creatures were both physical and spiritual, they saw both my physical form laying down, and my spiritual form sitting up.

"We did not know..." The one alien says by the spirit placing a hand out hesitantly to calm me down. "...He is our Lord and Savior too."

That is when they began to tell me of God, who had come into His own creation through His Son, Jesus Christ. Who had about 2000 years ago, raised from the dead and in fact filled the whole universe, just as Ephesians said He did. All of creation mourned, including these extra-terrestial beings, because they were all in bondage to sin, but then Jesus had set them free showing them the truth.

"So why do you kidnap us and experiment on us?" I said.

They both laugh lightly, that is when I realized that I was not being experimented on. It seemed we were being collected as pets of some sort. They explain that I was the first to ever address them, they did not know we even spoke in the spirit. They misunderstood our speech and screams as we would understand a cat meow.

"Will you return us all back to our home planet?" I asked.

"Yes, we will, we are sorry. We have good news to tell our homeworld, that Jesus is the Savior of all the universe!"

Then I find myself standing in a field with a million or so others from around the world. Others who also were kidnapped in the same fashion, from different times and places.

The End.

WOW!  I really enjoyed that Craig!  :boogie:

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on July 04, 2008, 10:49:37 PM
Brother P... in "paying attention to the words"... we can only "pay attention" to the ones which are actually THERE...  If they are NOT THERE, then what attention may we "pay" to them?  :grin:

The truth is, that there is no "literal" word which is translated, "becomes" in this text... nor is there a literal word "was" (as is noted in the KJV)... the text only finds the words (in blue):

From Strongs Concordance:

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Here is the link which I gathered the above notation in Gen 3:20 it shows translatable Hebrew words in blue, other "peripheral" words are in black (which do not appear in the Hebrew texts):

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index2.htm

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 01:27:12 AMHi, Willie.   All I can say is that I have not intentionally added words to scripture.  Using www.scripture4all.org I find 11 words total with strongs references in Genesis 3:20.   If there is a more accurate reference to Hebrew and Greek words of Scripture, by all means point me in that direction.

I don't think you or I can "point" the other to a more "accurate" reference Paul...

For one, I think we are all to a degree at the mercy of INACCURATE references, and NONE of us is really qualified to "rate" them (as either more or less "accurate")...

You shall do it your way, and I mine, ...here is my approach:

In my experience, I tend to find less CALCULATED corruption in the works of the PAST, then in the MODERN efforts, and kind of stick with the KJV (with its myriads of RELIGIOUS errors) and STRONGS (with its obvious RELIGIOUS influences as well), as LESS CALCULATED, and therefore in a more innocent state, albeit to various degrees, ...RELIGIOUSLY influenced...  :dontknow:

And IN the use of these materials, I am trust in GOD's leading which exposes by that leading, those errors, and/or ...RELIGIOUS influences...  :mwink:

I certainly believe that you have not endeavored to add anything to the Scriptures, brother Paul, and I was not inferring you did so (add words to Scripture)...

The Hebrew word H1961 is NOT even IN the text of Gen 3:20. 

It is as I said... you OR I, can only "pay attention" to the words which ARE in the text... which I outlined in Blue above.

I was inferring that TRANSLATORS do this... as in the case of both "WAS" and "BECOMES"... Neither of these words are present in the Hebrew...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 01:27:12 AM
True, the word "becomes" is not a strict word for word translation, but it is more accurate that "was" since there does not appear to be a direct past tense definition.  But in any case from my source I have paid attention to a word that is there.

You have "paid attention" to a word that TRANSLATORS have said is "there" ("BECOMES" / Literal translation),  as have I ("WAS" / KJV translation), ...neither of which is actually "there", and that is my point me-bratha...   :icon_rr: :laugh:

I have read this particular passage many times, and admit that I have never even researched whether or not the word "WAS" actually "was in the original text"... so in the end, ...we are BOTH floating in the same "translation" boat - eh?  :laughing7:

Gen 3:20  And Adam121 called7121 his wife's802 name8034 Eve;2332 because3588 she1931 was1961 the mother517 of all3605 living.2416


[she]"was"

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.


hâyâh-- this is the same word that is in the name God gives Moses--I AM THAT I AM

hâyâh 'ăsher hâyâh (Exo 3:14)

Quote from: willieH on July 04, 2008, 11:53:33 PM
willieH: Hi SG...  :mwink:

Quote from: StainedGlass on July 02, 2008, 06:59:11 PM
Enjoyed reading both your posts....Paul and Joyce. :bigGrin:  I agree that if it is real (in the sense of what we call "real")....it certainly means that there is a purpose for it.  I believe that God is above Reality (He is all Truth).  God is the creator of Reality. 

In response to the mention of H.G. Wells War of the Worlds... I've heard it said that just because something is classified as Fiction...it doesn't mean it's not true.  It just means it may not have happened yet.

I have thought this same thing Michelle... JESUS CHRIST died to redeem CREATION... if "aliens" do exist, then they are IN the CREATION... for the entire UNIVERSE and its ENTIRE CONTENTS, are subject to that Redemption and are in NEED of it...

"ALL THINGS" extends to and includes The UNIVERSE in its ENTIRETY...  :dontknow:

QuoteI've always loved the depiction of the aliens in the movie/story Contact.  They appear as highly evolved spiritual beings that have an enormous degree of love.....and much to teach us about Life, once we're ready.  Sounds much like angels IMO.

One of my FAVORITE Science fiction movies, written by ATHIEST Carl Sagan... I believe Carl was coming around to himself, in this final work...  :cloud9:

QuoteI remember in the show....the X-Files.....they always said, "The Truth is out there".  This is what I've thought for quite some time, but now I believe that the Truth is within.

Very true... that which is "out there" is everything in the NATURAL creation... and in that Natural creation, is found the OPPOSITE to the TRUTH... which is WITHIN...

"Out there" is just a tainted reflection of what is "IN THERE" and UNTAINTED...  :dontknow:

There just might be "aliens"... and there just might be a "war of the worlds" to come... before it is all over...  :mshock:

pEace...

...willieH  :boogie:

Enjoyed that post Willie! :bigGrin:  I bet the future holds some pretty far out stuff that would be hard for us to believe right now.....for intstance what if we begin to inhabit other planets.......as well as travel at the speed of thought...ie. think of the place and you're there (like beem me up Scotty!)  What if physical reality becomes a lot like what people have imagined the spiritual realm to be like.  I don't know....just some crazy thoughts. :happygrin:

WHAT IT'S LIKE


I'm a prisoner in an alien body.  I've been exiled to a garbage planet where everybody dies.  I survived the 20th century, the darkest in their recorded history, where other inhabitants killed each other by the millions.  Yet they think they've made much progress beyond previous eras.

Their best hope surrounds the greatest human that ever lived who they killed.  He nevertheless overcame death and went into higher realms so can manifest in any of us as a door into God and incorruptible life.  Yet this has been mostly commercialized and taken over by a bureaucracy of deceived professionals who neither enter themselves nor allow anybody else to.

I've spent much time getting my mind and heart free from the sins against me in my early years here in the body of a child.  By re-reading many times the record God gave of His Son I'm getting free from religious indoctrination too, though many keep trying to get rid of that book.

They've hurt me, lied about me and even organized against me.  Whether they will kill me or not I don't know yet; but, I know I'll escape them and be completely free one day.  I'm going to be like my Father and none is greater than Him.


---James Rohde

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 05:27:51 AM
Gen 3:20  And Adam121 called7121 his wife's802 name8034 Eve;2332 because3588 she1931 was1961 the mother517 of all3605 living.2416


[she]"was"

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.


hâyâh-- this is the same word that is in the name God gives Moses--I AM THAT I AM

hâyâh 'ăsher hâyâh (Exo 3:14)

Let me show you how it's done Molly:

I stand corrected...  :mblush:  ...after further research (I looked in a more detailed copy of Strongs), the word HAYAH is listed in Gen 3:20, and is generally translated WAS... or WAST... in the KJV...

I am only putting this out there from my perspective.

The reason I believe the CLV puts Genesis 3:20  H1961 as becomes rather than WAS is the translators I think take a more allegoric perspective of things.

Was is past tense.   From a literal standpoint,  EVE is now dead, so she existed in the past, therefore from that bias, "Was" fits.

But  I am not so sure from a spiritual standpoint that is accurate.   For EVE spiritually is representative of the beginning of humanity and nothing has caused that to be entirely past tense, since she still "IS" and has not ceased to be.


For instance,  great things in my life do become the past, since they happened past tense.  But they become a great and enduring part of my life, so I find it hard to say  "That was great"  since those things still encourage me to this day,  Those things became and will never cease to be great.

Quote from: willieH on July 05, 2008, 03:57:04 AM
I have read this particular passage many times, and admit that I have never even researched whether or not the word "WAS" actually "was in the original text"... so in the end, ...we are BOTH floating in the same "translation" boat - eh?  :laughing7:

And I entirely understand. We do our best, learn and seek and study and I certainly love the discussion of various things along these lines.

Ssshhh...

There are no aliens.

God made that whole huge glorious universe out there....for us!

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

---Genesis 1

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:17:24 AM
Ssshhh...

There are no aliens.

God made that whole huge glorious universe out there....for us!

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

---Genesis 1

This is why I try to find as many sources as I can to compare and study.

While I like the CLV and use it alot,  I find that "earth" is not referenced from the manuscript text.

As best as I can tell, in my opinion,  it is an assumption based upon


H7549  raqiya`  raw-kee'-ah

from H7554;

properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the
sky:--firmament.

Yes, the visible arch of the sky--visible--what we can see.

You know how far we can see into the universe now with our supertelescopes? :laughing7:

And, just those stars we can see with the naked eye--any idea how far away they are?



"20 March 2008—A powerful stellar explosion -- a gamma-ray burst -- has shattered the record for the most distant object that could be seen with the naked eye and also ranks as the most intrinsically bright object ever observed by humans in the universe.

"...and now we've got one that is so bright that it was visible to the naked eye even though its source is half-way across the universe," said David Burrows, senior scientist and professor of astronomy and astrophysics at Penn State University, ..."


19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam ....

When it comes down to it, we only know of one planet that inhabits life.   

This word is not exclusive to earth.

H776  'erets  eh'-rets

from an unused root probably meaning to be firm;

the earth (at large, or partitively a land):--X common, country, earth, field,
ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.


The parenthesis here shows the qualifier for  "the earth".  Until we know of another planet that inhabits intelligent life, there would be no point in using any other name except for where we reside.


However, the full scope of the word is more about land and and a world rather than being held to the specific name we have deemed the planet on which we reside.


From a literal point of view, sure, Adam being a literal man, was the literal beginning father of all humans on earth.

However, since we know, whether someone believes it or not, the bible has an allegoric meaning to existance there is room for interpretation that it can apply to all worlds in existance, if they indeed may exist.

I don't see that any  alien beings are described as coming from our galaxy or other galaxies.

It seems like that would be pretty important information for us to have.

I'm more concerned with men pretending there is an invasion from other galaxies--war of the worlds worked so well, why not repeat it?

Yet, we look forward to a time when the stars and sun and moon will be no longer needed because there will be no more night.


22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).

--Rev 21

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 10:03:26 AM
I don't see that any other alien beings are described as coming from our galaxy or other galaxies.

It seems like that would be pretty important information for us to have.

I'm more concerned with men pretending there is an invasion from other galaxies--war of the worlds worked so well, why not repeat it?

It may be, but I am only suggesting as I have before that the bible cannot conclusively be used to discredit the possibility of life on other planets.

Mainly my point is this,   one can speculate that there is no life on other worlds, because in truth, right now no one can be for sure.   One can speculate that there is, only from the stand point that it cannot be proven one way or the other.

So, my perspective has been, would the manuscript text be invalid if indeed one day we actually found intelligent life on another world.  I say no.

What people fear is irrevalent to whether anything is valid or invalid.   If a person fears that we teach UR because someone may go out and murder someone since they may not fear eternity in hell any longer, what does that mean concerning the truth or lack thereof of UR in the bible?

Quote

Yet, we look forward to a time when the stars and sun and moon will be no longer needed because there will be no more night.

And those on another world might look forward to that too.    :bgdance:

willieH: Howdee cowboys  :icon_king:  & cowgirls  :icon_queen:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:17:24 AM
Ssshhh...

There are no aliens.

God made that whole huge glorious universe out there....for us!

:laugh: :laughhand:  ...This is really just a joke, ...right Molly?  :dontknow:  If NOT, I say:

:Yeahright: ...how many years of diligent thought did this conclusion accumulate from?

Quote14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

---Genesis 1

The Heavens were created for the sole reason of giving light on the earth?   :mshock:

This is like saying the oceans were created by GOD, solely to wash off the rocks by the seashore...  :laughing7:

We cannot even begin to percieve the vast and COMPLEX reasons for the creation of the INFINITE heavens we observe... 

Apart from giving LIGHT upon the earth, ...They are shown to be HIS SIGNATURE... presenting not just "LIGHT" upon the earth... but SCREAMING to us of HIS wonderful MAJESTY and POWER...  :bowing:  YHVH!

Were the Stars created (in part) to give light on the Earth?  YES...

Is that foundation enough to determine this to be their sole purpose for existence?  NO!

Maybe it is their sole purpose for the earth, but NOT for other worlds which certainly exist in the INFINITE cosmos...

YHVH names EACH Star... that is how INTIMATE and IMPORTANT they are to Him... (Ps 147:4) 

And WE cannot even SEE their total number for they are INNUMERABLE, let alone be graced by the LIGHT of their totality!  :mshock:

GOD did NOT say that the ONLY PURPOSE for the STARS is to give LIGHT on the earth, it is listed as their purpose for the EARTH, ...but nothing is said of their PURPOSE elsewhere in the Heavens...

Just as the oceans serve MUCH MORE PURPOSE than to just wash off the rocks by the seashore...  :sigh:

Noting life to be solely upon earth, is done with the same visionless method NASA uses, when it sends a probe to a celestial body such as the Moon, or Mars, and when it lands,  has a maximum visionary scope of 20 miles, and then the same type of Brainiacs that come up with evolution, determine that they know all about MILLIONS of square miles of the planet or moon, upon which the probe landed... please... :rolleye:

We haven't a CLUE as to the COMPLETE purposes that ALMIGHTY GOD has implemented throughout His Creation...

We can only stand on this "speck of dust" called earth, and gaze in AWE, at His handiwork... which would further PRAISE Him if LIFE is truly present THROUGHOUT that Universe we are unable to observe up close...   :boogie:

It is best that we should stand upon this "speck" in deep Humility  :blush: of the MAJESTIC Universe that YHVH has created,  :popout:  ...rather than arrogantly deciding that His VAST and INFINITE  Universe serves no other purpose than to bring "light upon the earth"... FOR US!  :rolleye:

Quote...how many years of diligent thought did this conclusion accumulate from?

It took me as long as it takes to read these words, a second or so...


Gen 1:14  And God430 said,559 Let there be1961 lights3974 in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to divide914, 996 the day3117 from996 the night;3915 and let them be1961 for signs,226 and for seasons,4150 and for days,3117 and years:8141
Gen 1:15  And let them be1961 for lights3974 in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to give light215 upon5921 the earth:776 and it was1961 so.3651


Gen 1:16  And God430 made6213 (853) two8147 great1419 lights;3974 (853) the greater1419 light3974 to rule4475 the day,3117 and the lesser6996 light3974 to rule4475 the night:3915 he made the stars3556 also.
Gen 1:17  And God430 set5414 them in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to give light215 upon5921 the earth,776
Gen 1:18  And to rule4910 over the day3117 and over the night,3915 and to divide914, 996 the light216 from996 the darkness:2822 and God430 saw7200 that3588 it was good.2896

QuoteIt is best that we should stand upon this "speck" in deep Humility   of the MAJESTIC Universe that YHVH has created...,

I do.  It is his great love for us that is humbling, not the majesty of the universe that he created for us in a day.



When we've been here ten thousand years...
bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise...
then when we've first begun.

First, there is no "for us"  in those verses.


Secondly,  it may be for us, but  possibly not  "only" for us.

Hi guys! :bigGrin:

Genesis 3:20 (Young's Literal Translation)

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.

Strong's Concordance is keyed to the King James Bible Anything that you look up in Strong's is from the KJV TRANSLATION of the original Hebrew and Greek.

I'd like to ask everyone here 2 questions:
1-- what do "stars" represent in Genesis, spiritually speaking
2-- why does God give us various accounts/retelling? of the creation in Scripture?

Joyce :)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 06:41:26 PM


First, there is no "for us"  in those verses.


Secondly,  it may be for us, but  possibly not  "only" for us.

They were created for light on  the earth and the earth for us, over which we were given dominion.

The crowning glory of His creation was not the stars in the sky--it was Adam.


2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.



"beholding as in a glass"

G2734
κατοπτρίζομαι
katoptrizomai
kat-op-trid'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from a compound of G2596 and a derivative of G3700 (compare G2072); to mirror oneself, that is, to see reflected (figuratively): - behold as in a glass.

Quote from: willieH on July 05, 2008, 02:54:08 AM
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

What a great story!  :cloud9:
WOW!  I really enjoyed that Craig!  :boogie:

pEace...

...willieH  :boogie:

I actually wrote it, remembering I was going to post it especially for you, Willie, but in the past I forgot! Thought it was a good time to finally share it. :)

willieH: Hi Paul...  :dsunny:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 06:41:26 PMFirst, there is no "for us"  in those verses.


Secondly,  it may be for us, but  possibly not  "only" for us.

AMEN!  :iagree:

Too much TV (tunnel vision)... causing "for us" syndrome...

Quote from: willieH on July 05, 2008, 08:27:48 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :dsunny:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 06:41:26 PMFirst, there is no "for us"  in those verses.


Secondly,  it may be for us, but  possibly not  "only" for us.

AMEN!  :iagree:

Too much TV (tunnel vision)... causing "for us" syndrome...

peaCe...

...willieH  :icon_king:

You don't seem to know yet how much he loves you, Willie.  Maybe I could make that my birthday present to you. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 07:12:15 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 05, 2008, 06:41:26 PM


First, there is no "for us"  in those verses.


Secondly,  it may be for us, but  possibly not  "only" for us.

They were created for light on  the earth and the earth for us, over which we were given dominion.

The crowning glory of His creation was not the stars in the sky--it was Adam.


2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.



"beholding as in a glass"

G2734
κατοπτρίζομαι
katoptrizomai
kat-op-trid'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from a compound of G2596 and a derivative of G3700 (compare G2072); to mirror oneself, that is, to see reflected (figuratively): - behold as in a glass.

More hoo-ha that does not prove a point...  :grin:

What does the word GLASS have to do with the PURPOSE of the Heavens and Stars?   :wacko2:

The crowing glory on Earth... actually was EVE which completed His Work, Molly...

Eve started out as Adam's rib.

What does a mirror have to do with it?  When we look into a mirror with open faces we see the glory of the Lord.

"open" [face]


G343
ἀνακαλύπτω
anakaluptō
an-ak-al-oop'-to
From G303 (in the sense of reversal) and G2572; to unveil: - open, ([un-]) taken away.

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 07:12:15 PM
They were created for light on  the earth and the earth for us, over which we were given dominion.

First, Gods love is so great, so vast, so incredible that there is plenty, not only "for us" but for any other creatures that may exist elsewhere.


You are adding the "for us" to scripture to give an exclusive nature to Gods love only to us with the assumption that no other planet in existance could have life.

This is a safe assumption on your part because of the odds of finding that life during your lifetime.   But one needs to reserve for possibility and not assume scripture says things it does not say.

We can assume God loves us because he says so.  But in context with creating the heavens and the earth(translated more accuratly "expanse" or land or world"  there is no mention that it was for us.

Putting us in charge, is a duty, we are in charge here, because we are here and  this is our perspective.  Would we be given the right to rule over another planet and all it's occupants if there was one found?

Or would we see that our fellow intelligent brethren on another world were co habitants in dominion in the metaphor the bible really is?

He's the one who creates everything, and then and only then, creates Adam.

He's the one who creates the stars to give light on the earth--for whom?  Do you think for the termites?  or the reptiles?  Maybe for the one created in his image?  Can the reptiles read the signs and seasons from the heavenly bodies?  Were the termites given dominion?  Do they care whether it's a week or a month or a year?

There is nothing in the Bible that implies that there is any life on any other planet or star anywhere in the universe.  Did God just happen to leave that out so that Isaac Asimov could make millions speculating?

All he can do is give you the gift--if you won't accept it--it's your loss.

willieH:  Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH...how many years of diligent thought did this conclusion accumulate from?

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 04:56:24 PMIt took me as long as it takes to read these words, a second or so...

Gen 1:14  And God430 said,559 Let there be1961 lights3974 in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to divide914, 996 the day3117 from996 the night;3915 and let them be1961 for signs,226 and for seasons,4150 and for days,3117 and years:8141
Gen 1:15  And let them be1961 for lights3974 in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to give light215 upon5921 the earth:776 and it was1961 so.3651


Gen 1:16  And God430 made6213 (853) two8147 great1419 lights;3974 (853) the greater1419 light3974 to rule4475 the day,3117 and the lesser6996 light3974 to rule4475 the night:3915 he made the stars3556 also.
Gen 1:17  And God430 set5414 them in the firmament7549 of the heaven8064 to give light215 upon5921 the earth,776
Gen 1:18  And to rule4910 over the day3117 and over the night,3915 and to divide914, 996 the light216 from996 the darkness:2822 and God430 saw7200 that3588 it was good.2896

Glad you put so much thought into your answer...  :laughhand:  It appears you do this most times...

Quoting every number of every word gives you some sort of confidence eh?  :dontknow: ...Whatever floats your boat...  :sigh:

I have noticed that you only do this when convenient... and am still waiting on you to post the UNBIBLICAL words you use to support your beliefs, and avoid when asked...

All this useless quotation doesn't make your point Molly, that the ONLY PURPOSE of the Stars and Heavens is "FOR US"... :rolleye:

Quote from: willieHIt is best that we should stand upon this "speck" in deep Humility   of the MAJESTIC Universe that YHVH has created...,

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 04:56:24 PMI do.  It is his great love for us that is humbling, not the majesty of the universe that he created for us in a day.

ALL that He DOES is worthy of GLORY and MAJESTY Molly... and are products of HIS LOVE... not just "FOR US" ...but for the ENTIRE CREATION... with which we SHARE this life...

His MAJESTY is found in a bumble bee or a frog... or in a cloud which rains, or bolt of lightning... even in an ant which (you probably step on without thought) creating a complicated domicile cooperatively with innumerable others, ...all just beyond your sight...

His "Great LOVE" is found in ALL the facets of His creation which blesses us... and that blessing is not just "FOR US"... It extends to the details, for He blesses the Bee, that blesses the Flower, that blesses us with HONEY...  and in this, all YOU see is the Honey, making it about YOURSELF...

Missing the beautiful and Holy process that HE created in the "honeys" manifestation... Which gives the flower the ingredients, that the bee takes (leaving blessings upon the flower we do not even know) and with its God-given and MAJESTICLY MYSTERIOUS talent, produces sweet honey, which helps its community, and ...LASTLY blesses Molly's toast in the morning...

GENERALIZING His LOVE, and reducing it to YOURSELF only... instead of thanking Him for ALL which you do not even understand... such as the complete PURPOSE for the Stars or for Bees or for Ants...  :dontknow:  

Making the Stars (and all His Creation) about YOURSELF, instead of giving Him praise for whatever INTRICATE operation they might be a part of, which lies just beyond your pitiful ONE SECOND devotional...  :pitiful:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 04:56:24 PMWhen we've been here ten thousand years...
bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise...
then when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace... a sweet, albeit somewhat INACCURATE song...  :dontknow:  Like most of your posts Molly, you continue to make...

More "near-sighted" quotations from man (woman/Fanny Crosby  :bigGrin:)... proposing TIME shall continue into ETERNITY... :mnah:

When JESUS plainly stated on (at least) 4 times there shall be a LAST DAY...  (John 12:48 / John 6:44 / 39 / 54 ...and Martha as well: John 11:24)

LAST DAY means NO MORE DAYS follow it, Molly ...not as Fanny Crosby wrote and you "quote" (in agreement with her), ...NO LESS DAYS...  :laughhand:

well, I wait for you to show me the Bible verses that say there is life on other planets, Willie.

Otherwise, you are just Arthur Clark without the millions.

QuoteMissing the beautiful and Holy process that HE created in the "honeys" manifestation... Which gives the flower the ingredients, that the bee takes (leaving blessings upon the flower we do not even know) and with its God-given and MAJESTICLY MYSTERIOUS talent, produces sweet honey, which helps its community, and ...LASTLY blesses Molly's toast in the morning...

With God, if it seems too good to be true, it's probably true. :cloud9:


11 For he will command his angels concerning you
       to guard you in all your ways;
    12 they will lift you up in their hands,
       so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

--Psalm 91

willieH: Hey Molly...  :sigh:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:30:40 PM
He's the one who creates everything, and then and only then, creates Adam.

He's the one who creates the stars to give light on the earth--for whom?  Do you think for the termites?  or the reptiles?

Was not the "light" of the stars not ALREADY shining upon the termite and reptile, before Adam was created Molly?

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:30:40 PMMaybe for the one created in his image?  Can the reptiles read the signs and seasons from the heavenly bodies?  Were the termites given dominion?

The Sun is a STAR Molly... and the SUN blesses the termite even though it has no particular "dominion"... The SUN also blesses the TREES as well, does it not Molly?  What "dominion" do they have?  :JCThink:

And in this of course you believe that the SUN is just there for SIGNS and SEASONS eh?  Exclusively for MAN... leaving out the rest of LIFE here on earth, is that your conclusion sister Molly?  :mshock:

The biggest and most sad part of all this, is that you continuously make it ALL about US... when, indeed the TRUTH is that it is ALL about HIM Molly...  :bowing: YHVH!

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:30:40 PMThere is nothing in the Bible that implies that there is any life on any other planet or star anywhere in the universe.

That there is nothing in the Bible that implies this does not prove that there is NOT life elsewhere!  There is nothing in the Bible about '55 Chevy's either, does that mean that they do NOT exist either Molly?

The guitar is not mentioned in the Bible Molly, is it too a figment of our imagination?  :dontknow:

QuoteDid God just happen to leave that out so that Isaac Asimov could make millions speculating?

Don't even GO there Molly...  :laughing7: ...what of Pat Robertson, Hal Lindsay, Paul Crouch, Oral Roberts and the many other FILTHY rich preachers which SPECULATE daily on the things of GOD...  :mshock:

At least Isaac Azimov is not making his bucks at the expense of FALSIFYING the GOSPEL! 

Are you to condemn the MUSIC and MOTION PICTURE industries next Molly?  Who do you WORK for?  Are they making MONEY?  ...maybe MILLIONS off of the talents GOD gave them?  Some of which, via your paycheck, feeds your face...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:30:40 PMAll he can do is give you the gift--if you won't accept it--it's your loss.

Now you limit GOD, I guess this was inevitable...  :thumbdown:

ALL He can DO is give me a gift?   And then HIS MIGHT is then trumped in that giving, due to my indescretions?  Are you serious?  :mshock: :laughing7:

Please... :rolleye:  You present less than a challenge, Molly...  :pitiful:

(Eph 1:11) It is HE that is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL, ...not mine, and obviously, ...not yours...

Any use of any GIFT that HE shall give, is ultimately under HIS control in HIS creation, and is manifest to GLORIFY HIM, not me, ...for HE declared (with HIS WORDS) The END from the BEGINNING, and ALL that was NOT, as if it WAS, Molly (Is 46:10-11)

If I appear to "lose" in your observation, that is YOUR observation, not mine, and not HIS... for, before I ever entered life, He had already DECLARED that "loss" would occur... and His WORDS always STAND, never to be compromised...

For a person which obviously does much study, are sorrowfully uneducated about what you profess...

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 08:31:41 PM
You don't seem to know yet how much he loves you, Willie.  Maybe I could make that my birthday present to you. :Sparkletooth:

Thanks for the uninformed thought Molly...

I am quite well aware of the LOVE of YHVH... and of HIS Son JESUS CHRIST... (and have been for over 32 years) and am not in need of your advice to gain that awareness...  :HeartThrob:

I am about exalting HIM in my life and in my words... and leaving ME out of the "limelight"...  At times I come up short, but it is always the desire of my heart to MAGNIFY HIM...

You are welcome to make it all about yourself if you wish, that is your affair...  :dontknow:

willieH:  Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
well, I wait for you to show me the Bible verses that say there is life on other planets, Willie.

Otherwise, you are just Arthur [C.] Clark[e] without the millions.

You will be WAITING on me?   :laugh:  ...Now THAT's a twist...  :pointlaugh:

I don't have to show Bible verses that note existence in order for them to BE, Molly!

What Bible verse notes the existence of the Ford Motor Company?  Or Alex Rodriguez of the New York Yankees?

What Bible verse notes the existence of PLASTIC?  Or of PLYWOOD?

What Bible verse notes the existence of GEORGE BUSH? Or TOM CRUISE?

Shall we conclude that none of the ABOVE (in blue) exist, because these are not mentioned in the Bible Molly?  :wacko2:

As I said, you are not much of a challenge... and until YOU ACCEPT a CHALLENGE yourself, ...you are thereby DISQUALIFIED to hand them out to others...  :thumbdown:

Hey you guys....this is the second time today that I've had to "re-post" my reply because it shows up and then it's gone? Weird! :mshock:

For the new student or believer:

The Strong's Concordance is keyed to the King James Version of the Bible....so you are beginning with a translation that has some minor and some major translation problems with it, depending on which "expert" you listen to.

If you want to get a second opinion on a particular verse or word, go with a different translation to begin with, then look up your Hebrew and Greek words. But you'll need another tool, like e-sword.
You can download a free version here: http://www.e-sword.net/ (http://www.e-sword.net/)

Getting back to the garden....sounds like a song from the '60's  :laughing7: .... okay...getting back to the garden and EVE....

Gen 3:20 (YLT) Young's Literal Translation:
And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.

Genesis 3:20 (Darby Translation)
And Man called his wife's name Eve; because she is the mother of all living.

Gen 3:20 (Holman Christian Standard)
Adam named his wife Eve [a] because she was the mother of all the living.

Any comments?

Now, before I leave....I have 2 questions for the forum here:
1-- does anyone have an understanding of why there are multiple accounts of the creation in Genesis
2-- can "stars"  sometimes be called "angels" in scripture/ and is the opposite true?

Okay..that's it for me for today.......where's the coffee pot Willie? Willie! Did you TAKE the coffee pot ?? :laughing7:

Joyce :)

willieH: Hi Joyce!  :hithere:

I got the coffee!  I got the coffee!  :coffee:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 05, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
Hi guys! :bigGrin:

Genesis 3:20 (Young's Literal Translation)

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.

Strong's Concordance is keyed to the King James Bible Anything that you look up in Strong's is from the KJV TRANSLATION of the original Hebrew and Greek.

I'd like to ask everyone here 2 questions:
1-- what do "stars" represent in Genesis, spiritually speaking
2-- why does God give us various accounts/retelling? of the creation in Scripture?

Joyce :)

For now I'll leave #1 alone and let others offer their insights... but #2 is one which I have found quite intriguing, and have a comment or two about it...

Many have noted DISCREPANCIES between the Creation "account" in Genesis 1:1-31 - Genesis 2:1-3... as opposed to the "account" given following it, in Genesis 2...

As for me, ...I question them both being "accounts" or "reports" as to how things came to be...

A few of the differences are...

(1) "tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil" is not mentioned in the first "account"
(2) The first "account" is 7 days, the second in the "day" (singular)
(3) The first shows both male & female created, the 2nd makes them separate creations
(4) The first says EVERY TREE was given, the 2nd prohibits one...
(5) God notes EVERY THING in creation to be VERY GOOD in the 1st, but is unhappy in the 2nd...
(6) The first mentions God creating man, but does not note, as in the 2nd, that it is done of the dust, nor does the first mention the breath of life.

Because of these things (there are more, but I'd like to address #1 at this time)... Many are concerned about these 2 varying reports... and as to how they might find harmony...

Some even speculate Genesis 1 to be a prophecy of the "re-creation" of the New Heavens and New earth...  :dontknow:

It is my observation OF the DAY of YHVH is that ALL TIME (from the first day to the LAST) is found within, ...this "DAY" of YHVH mentioned in Gen 2:4...

The account of Genesis one is the Creation of TIME and all within it... the DAY of YHVH is the ETERNAL state of NOW in which ALL GENERATIONS (all time participants and affiliated things) take place.

It mentions in verse 4:  these are the GENERATIONS of the Heavens and the Earth - WHEN [in time] they were created...

Though each "GENERATION" appears at different moments IN time...  ALL GENERATIONS appear in NOW, and at the moment they ARE (now) in time, are they found "created"...

ALL "time" is found to take place, or occur, "in" NOW...

"NOW" knows no future or past (these are observations of TIME), and in the end all that the observations of the future and the past actually are, is NOW that has occured or, NOW that is yet to occur.

ALL "TIME" (the "days" of Man) take place in NOW... which is THE ETERNAL state and "DAY" of YHVH... 

GOD created TIME (in my observation), as a TEMPORAL classroom if you will, in which to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil in His Children which are found to be both, the TEMPLE of YHVH and the BODY of His Son, ...CHRIST...

I say REVEAL because:

YHVH and JESUS CHRIST are BOTH noted in Scripture as UNCHANGING (Mal 3:6) and (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17)

So any portion of YHVH (temple) or JESUS (body) has ALWAYS BEEN as it ...IS... and is UNCHANGING...

YHVH and His WORD, have the knowledge of good and evil, and in order that the Children of the MOST HIGH, be ALL in Him, and He ALL in them, the REVEALING of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is thereby manifest to be the GLORIOUS LIBERTY of the Children... which GLORIFIES the Father, which GLORIFIES the Son...

In other words...

If a veil is over my hand, and prevents you from seeing my hand, ...my hand does not change at all with the removal of the veil, it simply becomes  visible (revealed) to you...  My hand, IS still my hand, ...veil or no veil...  :happygrin:

I will make further comments about the two "accounts" in my forthcoming posts...

So am I to conclude that through all the noise, you cannot come up with any Bible verses that say that God created alien beings on other planets or galaxies, Willie?  It looks that way.  It's not in the Bible.

We know where particular men came from--God created man.

We know where plywood and chevies come from--the men God created and gave dominion to made them.

Everything on earth was made for man, as the co-heirs with Christ,  as well as everything in heaven.



Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

--Colossians 1




Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

What Molly does, is a common practice among those who prefer hasty generalizations. She participates in three common fallacies:

#1 Word Study Fallacy (aka Root Word Fallacy), in which she does not take the word presented to mean what it means but the root of that word to mean what it means. This practice is severely flawed, and not accepted by any serious theological school and usually called the "lazy man's study".  

Craig's
Rule #1 when it comes to words. The word used, is what the word meant, not it's root.

#2 Anchronistic Word Fallacy (Semantic Anachronism), in which she applies a modern understanding of philosophy, to the words used in ancient times and would have no such understanding to begin with.  

Craig's
Rule #2 when it comes to words. The word used, in it's time, is what the word meant, not what it means today.

#3 Multiple Choice Fallacy (Overload Fallacy), in which a word has many different definitions and chooses the one that most fits what she wants it to say, not what it says.  

Craig's
Rule #3 when it comes to words. The word used, it it's context, is what the word meant, not what you want it say.

I find it hard to believe that this stuff keeps getting passed off as good study habits.

QuoteSo am I to conclude that through all the noise, you cannot come up with any Bible verses that say that God created alien beings on other planets or galaxies, Willie?  It looks that way.  It's not in the Bible.

Another error in study practice, a fallacy known as "Reification / Hypostatization" and also, in a special form of "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" called Shifting the burden of proof.

This whole debate was formed because someone made a clear distinction that there was no aliens; yet Scripture does not state there is no aliens or extra-terrestial life, either. So what happens is, this turns into a discussion, into a chuck full of fallacy slingfest, as a person tries to secure their position with a definite answer, which they themselves cannot prove either.

I can find many Scriptures, which proves that we do not know what was created in the 'heavens'; this is what we know as outerspace. Because we only have an account of what was created on earth with some part of the heavens described. The portion in which the heavens were created has literally been kept from us from knowing all that was made in the heavens.

Example, where in Scripture does it say God created the horsehead nebula? Where does it say that God created the sun to have solar flares? Where does Scripture tell us there is quite a few moons orbitting Jupiter. Where does Scripture describe God created the planets?

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

QuoteSo am I to conclude that through all the noise, you cannot come up with any Bible verses that say that God created alien beings on other planets or galaxies, Willie?  It looks that way.  It's not in the Bible.

Another error in study practice, a fallacy known as "Reification / Hypostatization" and also, in a special form of "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" called Shifting the burden of proof.

This whole debate was formed because someone made a clear distinction that there was no aliens; yet Scripture does not state their is no aliens or extra-terrestial life. So what happens is, this turns into a discussion, into a chuck full of fallacy slingfest, as a person tries to secure their position with a definite answer, which they themselves cannot prove either.

Can you show me verses where it says that God created alien beings on other planets?

I have a Bible which describes what God created and for what purpose.  I'm just using it.  You complain about that?

QuoteExample, where in Scripture does it say God created the horsehead nebula? Where does it say that God created the sun to have solar flares? Where does Scripture tell us there is quite a few moons orbitting Jupiter. Where does Scripture describe God created the planets?

We are told that God created all those lights up there in the sky.  So when we look up, we don't gasp and say--what's that?

The horsehead nebula is one of those lights, which when we see up close is shockingly beautiful, but we are told he created it.  You think an alien created it?

We know he created all things on the earth and gave man dominion over them.  I haven't yet seen every form of life on earth, have you?  But I know there are no alien beings from another planet on earth because that is not in the Bible.  In general, I know what to expect from the Bible, so I don't expect to be surprised by any 20 foot cockroaches from Mars that like to eat people.

If I see anything like that on the evening news, I will know it's just another gimmick by men who enjoy subjugating other men.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven.. for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and for years...


That would include planets--but I don't think that includes UFO's.

Here is my perspective Molly.    I will pretend that I am an inhabitant of another world and we have found manuscripts from an ancient culture.  I try to strip the ideas that hollywood and books have given us about aliens and  try to speculate a lost soul on another planet.   I grew up being told the planet I am on is earth.

I cannot know that across the expanse is another world whose inhabitants have also named the place they reside earth.  They might have even named it something else.

You have to understand that the word translated to earth is not a strict meaning,  the word has other meanings and we use earth in our bible because this IS where WE live and we are reading words that have been TRANSLATED to the best meaning in OUR  language. 

Do you find it curious that we do not have what might be considered "original" manuscripts. Those who say something has been translated from original manuscripts are in error.

The oldest manuscripts have been said to be copies.  What if the copies were translated from words that did not come from our own earth?   Indeed, Gods words did not come from EARTH, it came from GOD.

So even if we could find manuscripts that could be claimed as original, the true origin of these "originals" still did not come from "earth".

I capitalized words for emphasis, not to shout.

If inhabitants of another world have the scriptures, all the spiritual meanings would be the same,  but they might be translated to the names of people and places that reside on that planet.   All the words of israelites, pharasees,  John the baptist, etc could all be changed and the spiritual meaning would be the same.

The metaphor in Genesis easily allows all kinds of possibilities of life.


The Gift of God does not require us to accept it on our own,  God draws all men unto himself, the debate is moot otherwise as the Gift of God is beyond our comprehension and it is not limited to "US".

willieH: Hi Joyce!  :hithere:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 05, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
Hi guys! :bigGrin:
2-- why does God give us various accounts/retelling? of the creation in Scripture?

Joyce :)

Quote from: willieH(2) The first "account" is 7 days, the second in the "day" (singular)

I think I addressed this one in my previous post...

The 1st "account" in Genesis is about the creation of TIME and its participants...

The 2nd "account" is about the GENERATIONS of those which traverse time... which are found IN YHVH (Acts 17:28) and IN the DAY of YHVH...  that which is IN YHVH, is IN ETERNITY... This includes time, the natural creation, all that IS... (Col 1:

Quote from: willieH(3) The first shows both male & female created, the 2nd makes them separate creations

GOD created the parameters of the inhabitants and characteristics of TIME in the first account...

INHABITANTS:  Male & female, all creatures, plants, waters, etc...
CHARACTERISTICS:  Celestial bodies - Seasons, Days, years, etc...

GOD then manifests those parameters in the 2nd account GENERATION by GENERATION, all of which are found within the DAY of YHVH God... Beginning with the 1st Generation, Adam and Eve...

YHVH first brings forth the Garden for Man to live in, ...then brings forth the Man, ...and then brings forth the rivers for him to swim in and drink from, ...then brings the animals to the man to be named, entering into (by name) intimate fellowship with them, ...and finally from the Man, brings forth the Woman with whom the Generations of Man shall share life upon the earth...

Quote from: willieH(4) The first appears to say that EVERY TREE was given, the 2nd prohibits one...

Every herb bearing SEED WAS GIVEN as food... and EVERY tree IN the WHICH is the fruit of a tree YIELDING SEED... (Gen 1:29)

My question here is, ...DID the "tree of the Knowledge of good and evil" actually YIELD SEED?  :Chinscratch: hmmm.... not sure about that one!  :dunno:

The tree of itself was ordinary (probably a fig tree)... but it was the FORBIDDANCE of it, which set it aside from the others in the Garden...

In the 1st "account" EVERY TREE Yielding SEED, was given for FOOD (Gen 1:28)

In the 2nd "account" GOD noted that ONE tree was to be avoided.  Guess it is entirely possible that this tree did not YIELD SEED...  :dontknow:

It was decided by YHVH that the man know good and evil... and that the PURPOSE of GOD be REVEALED as it IS WRITTEN...

Something like this... I have 100 cars in my garage... and ALL the cars belong to me (and thereby indirectly, my son)... They are ALL vehicles which are meant to be DRIVEN, but as the CONTROLLING OWNER of the cars, I decide my Son can only drive 99 of OUR CARS... and, even though the remaining car is still (indirectly) HIS, and it is good for DRIVING, it is FORBIDDEN to him...

My command does not alter that ALL the cars are still HIS, nor does it alter the DRIVEABILITY of the FORBIDDEN CAR, but His access to it has been limited by My decision because of KNOWLEDGE that I have, which HE does not... 

The decision is made because the BRAKES on the car can potentially cause an accident... My son has no knowledge of this problem... and I see no reason to tell him, in part because he has 99 other cars to drive, and in part because I wish to invest TRUST in him to obey my command.

That the car is FORBIDDEN, sets IT apart from the other 99... and the condition of  FORBIDDANCE IS the attraction of it...

I know this is a long drawn out illustration, but it is essentially what happened in the Garden...

Quote(5) God notes EVERY THING in creation to be VERY GOOD in the 1st, but is unhappy in the 2nd...

In the first "account" GOD says everything is VERY GOOD.  But does NOT say that it is  PERFECT. 

It is very good, because, even though He shall bear longsuffering, the goal and PURPOSE of the Creation, will be the PERFECTION achieved IN TIME, in His Son, ...as,

Adam shall KNOW as does YHVH and His WORD, ...good and evil, and upon that REVELATION, shall be REVEALED as PERFECT upon the conclusion of that REVELATION, exactly and to the detail, as is YHVH Himself...

Quote from: willieH(6) The first mentions God creating man, but does not note, as in the 2nd, that it is done of the dust, nor does the first mention the breath of life.

Though this detail is not present in the 1st account, does not in any way negate that ALL MEN gain life in this manner.  At the Creative hand of YHVH and become animated to LIFE, ...by the breath of HIS SPIRIT, which IS the breath of life...

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

What does it matter? I suspect most probably there is life extra-terrestial. We know angels exist, we know spirits exist, and we know demons exist. These things did not have their life originate on earth (as Molly's defense is), therefore, if anything does exist, it exists solely because God created it (not for our benefit, as Molly insists) but for Himself.

Quote from: joyful1 on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

Not real.

Everything was created by him and for him--of which we are co-heirs with Christ.

willieH: Hey Molly...  :hihat:

How-ah-ya?  :mwink:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 01:56:56 AM
So am I to conclude that through all the noise, you cannot come up with any Bible verses that say that God created alien beings on other planets or galaxies, Willie?  It looks that way.  It's not in the Bible.

Don't need to...  :laughing7:  I have already shown your logic to be without foundation, as are most of your theories...

As I said, YOU have not responded to challenges from me recently with answers, so I feel under no obligation whatsoever to answer your foolish requests...  :thumbdown:

Craig has presented a more than adaquate examination of the fallacy of your approach...

Nixing the subject of ALIENS, which neither states or dismisses their existence, but  according to you, this BIBLICAL SILENCE, automatically relegates them to being NON EXISTENT...

The lack of notation neither proves or disproves, ...existence OR non-existence!  Of this question, the Bible just silently SAYS:   NO COMMENT!  :dontknow:

YOU of all people who recently has used over and over, ASSERTIONS that are NOT in the BIBLE, to name a few:

"ADAM was ETERNAL", and...  "there was NO TIME in the Garden"...  you stubbornly  and willfully IGNORED several requests by me, to support these assertions with Biblical support...

Now you are found requiring proof for the existence of ALIENS from others from the BIBLE!  How CONTRARY and HYPOCRITICAL is that?  :prankster:

No one here is claiming they absolutely exist... most are just open to the possibility that they may (possibly) exist... and as far as the Bible goes, ...it says NOTHING, one way or the other...  :dontknow:

QuoteWe know where particular men came from--God created man

They are not named in the Bible so this approach does not verify your thinking that a given thing must be noted in the Bible in order to be existent...

QuoteWe know where plywood and chevies come from--the men God created and gave dominion to made them.

Again, these EXISTENT things, still do not appear in the Bible, ...therefore your arguement is found wallowing IN the mud of ILLOGICAL futility...

Quote from: MollyEverything on earth was made for man, as the co-heirs with Christ,  as well as everything in heaven.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

ALL THINGS created that are in HEAVEN, are not named in the Bible, and so  according to YOU, ...they too, (like ALIENS) must NOT EXIST...  :laugh:

Please Molly... float back down to earth wouldya?

The other Scriptures you listed, were not relevant and did not establish your arguement...  I see no point in addressing them...

Paul noted there are several planets and moons which are NOT visible to the naked eye, yet exist... 

BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of distant Stars,  EXIST in the Universe... yet do not send their LIGHT upon the earth... and accordingly, they are therefore NOT used in determining SEASONS or SIGNS... yet they EXIST in the UNIVERSE...

WHY Molly?  I'll tell you WHY... GOD has a PURPOSE for them, which you and I cannot SEE or KNOW... because they DO exist!  Yet they do NOT shine their light upon the earth... as they are FAR too DISTANT from earth...

As time goes on, scientists will develop more sophisticated photographical equipment, ...and more and more stars will be DISCOVERED, which do NOT shine their light upon the earth... guess we better let the scientists know that MOLLY said they don't exist either - eh?  ...  :wacko2:

:IloveU: sister Molly, but you gotta...

Float on down sis...  :cloud9:  float on down...  :cloud9:

You still seem to be missing the grand story of the Bible, Willie.

It's not about aliens; there are no aliens;  its about Christ and us.


1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 03:35:02 AM

Quote from: joyful1 on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

Not real.

Everything was created by him and for him--of which we are co-heirs with Christ.

Which neither enforces or denies the existance of extra-terrestial life. So what is your point?

willieH: Hey Joyce...  :hihat:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

No one at this point in time, really knows sister Joyce... and no one has PROVEN one way or the other...

Guess it will take...

FRIENDLY contact:   a SPACESHIP landing on the Whitehouse lawn or in the middle of the HOLLYWOOD Freeway, or...

UNFRIENDLY contact:  an out and out attack of earth, to prove it... (even then, I think sister Molly would still be in denial - :laughing7: )

Personally, I believe they do exist... and I also believe they shall somehow, have part in the end of this world...  

ALL anyone says at this point is purely speculation (including Molly)... On this subject I could be ENTIRELY incorrect... Its just a gut feeling...

Several Sci-Fi writers have shown an uncanny prophetic ability in their writings... Jules Verne in particular, especially had several projections in his writings which came to pass...

Hey, maybe Molly is right... but as I observe it, NO one is in a position to prove or disprove the existence of them at this point...

I have not had a personal experience with UFO's, ...but SOMETHING is going on here and there... which is beyond normal "earth type" activity...

I have spoken to a few people which have had experiences, ...and just like NDE's... when a person has had such an experience, they could CARE LESS if you believe it was real or not...  :dontknow:

There is a place in Washington state, called Ledbetter Lake... Molly should visit it sometime and then speak about her viewpoint...

Dogs wont even go there... :omg:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:06:05 AM
You still seem to be missing the grand story of the Bible, Willie.

It's not about aliens; there are no aliens;  its about Christ and us.


1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

You keep asserting that there are no aliens, when you have not disproven their existance. What is your problem with Aliens? Do you get jealous that they may also be co-heirs with Christ? What if they are not? What if we are co-heirs with Christ, and they, like everything else in creation, is just part of creation. Perhaps we have dominion of them too, then it doesn't matter if we are co-heirs or what we will be when he appears. Nothing you present here in this thread has any relevance to what this discussion is about.

QuoteGuess it will take...

FRIENDLY contact:   a SPACESHIP landing on the Whitehouse lawn or in the middle of the HOLLYWOOD Freeway, or...

UNFRIENDLY contact:  an out and out attack of earth, to prove it... (even then, I think sister Molly would still be in denial -  )

You bet I will deny them.  I firmly believe that UFO's have been seen, that they exist, that they use technology that is kept secret from us plebians--because WE allow it to be kept secret from us and just mope along paying 4, 5, and 6 dollars at the gas tank.  I know they exist for sure because I have a friend who has seen one up close and described it to me and its silent and extraordinarily fast maneuvers and flight.  She saw it forty years ago.

So you and Craig telling people that there might be aliens controlling them--when they are most assuredly men--are doing the human race a huge disservice, because when the time comes that men want to push for total control of the world, producing their 'faux aliens' that the public has been primed to accept will be a great way to do it.  It's already been proven to work once.

READ your Bible.

willieH: Hi molly... :mpardon:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:06:05 AM
You still seem to be missing the grand story of the Bible, Willie.

It's not about aliens; there are no aliens;  its about Christ and us.


1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

(1)  I'm not missing the grand story of the Bible at all, Molly... which is about the LOVE of YHVH God for His Children...

There are BILLIONS of things going on in creation of which neither YOU nor I have a clue...

What about what is going on at the bottom of the ocean Molly?  Is there NO PURPOSE in it?  GOD created the ocean and is about monitoring its part in Creation... is it in VAIN? 

Get off you pious cloud, and admit that most of the time you argue from UNBIBLICAL platforms, which is WHY Molly, you have little Biblical proof for your beliefs... and why you AVOID the Bible when it is not convenient to you...

(2)  Prove with the BIBLE that there are no ALIENS, Molly... quote the verses which support your assertion...

I do not claim they exist, I am open to the possibility... You have GOD all boxed up in your little theology, and expect no one else KNOWS about Him and His "grand story"!   :laughing7: ...please... float on down sis,  :cloud9:  ...float on down...  :cloud9:

Quote(2)  Prove with the BIBLE that there are no ALIENS, Molly... quote the verses which support your assertion...

I have proven it from the Bible, over and over.  He created all this for us--as co-heirs with Christ--by him and for him.

Not for 20 foot cockroaches from Mars or bug eyed grey men from the Pleides demanding to phone home.

For us!

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHGuess it will take...

FRIENDLY contact:   a SPACESHIP landing on the Whitehouse lawn or in the middle of the HOLLYWOOD Freeway, or...

UNFRIENDLY contact:  an out and out attack of earth, to prove it... (even then, I think sister Molly would still be in denial -  )

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:28:45 AMYou bet I will deny them.  I firmly believe that UFO's have been seen, that they exist, that they use technology that is kept secret from us plebians--because WE allow it to be kept secret from us and just mope along paying 4, 5, and 6 dollars at the gas tank.  I know they exist for sure because I have a friend who has seen one up close and described it to me and its silent and extraordinarily fast maneuvers and flight.  She saw it forty years ago.

You better cease with this ALIEN propaganda Molly...  :laughing7:  Volunteering your friends HEARSAY as VALID proof... please...   :laughing7:

There are cartoon shows about spaceships Molly... they provide as much PROOF as does your friends ALLEGED  experience...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:28:45 AMSo you and Craig telling people that there might be aliens controlling them

TELLING PEOPLE?  Telling people what Molly?  Get a grip!

You will OF COURSE, quote where I stated that ALIENS were controlling ANYTHING please! thank you...

You talk out your ____ most of the time Molly...  :thumbdown:

If you are not doing so here... you will easily be able to provide the QUOTE where I said such a thing...  I don't recall CRAIG saying such a thing either...  :dontknow:

We have both remained open to the POSSIBILITY that ALIENS could exist... no one has made statements that they DO EXIST, nor that they CONTROL anything... :mnah:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:28:45 AM--when they are most assuredly men--are doing the human race a huge disservice, because when the time comes that men want to push for total control of the world, producing their 'faux aliens' that the public has been primed to accept will be a great way to do it.  It's already been proven to work once.

Trust GOD Molly, and don't worry about the contrivings and/or conspiracy's of men...

ALL shall occur as YHVH Declared from the BEGINNING, that it shall... If ALIENS are existent and they are part of this thing, then they shall have their part... if they ARE not existent... then they shall NOT have a part...

What's the problem?  :dontknow:

Your worry is a lack of faith... get over it, and take your own advice:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:28:45 AMREAD your Bible.

QuoteVolunteering your friends HEARSAY as VALID proof... please...   

There are cartoon shows about spaceships Molly... they provide as much PROOF as does your friends ALLEGED  experience...

You don't have to take my word for it.  Go on the internet and watch them.  Watch the group of people, from radar controllers to pilots to military, give their testimony about them.

Look at the crop circles which they are becoming so proficient at drawing in the wheat fields.

Or use the common sense that God gave you to realize that we have really advanced much further in 100 years of flight than the put-put jet engine.  We are talking here about the human race that has split the atom and the gene in the same time period.

They exist alright.

willieH:  Molly...  :cloud9:

Is it a weekend pass you have there Molly?  :laughing7: (jus-kidn!  :laughhand:)

Quote from: willieH(2)  Prove with the BIBLE that there are no ALIENS, Molly... quote the verses which support your assertion...

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:48:16 AMI have proven it from the Bible, over and over.  He created all this for us--as co-heirs with Christ--by him and for him.

No one has made any denials concerning the destiny of the Human race Molly... as joint-heirs with CHRIST...

That some might consider that other beings live outside the earth, does not challenge that destiny whatsoever...

You haven't PROVEN anything... Where in the BIBLE does it SAY that ALIENS do NOT EXIST Molly --- PROVE IT...  :dontknow:

You have PROVEN, NOTHING...  :sigh:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 04:48:16 AMNot for 20 foot cockroaches from Mars or bug eyed grey men from the Pleides demanding to phone home.

I am afraid it is YOU who is the one with the runaway imagination what with your -- "20 foot cockroaches from Mars"...  :pointlaugh:

You sit and criticize wonderful and entertaining authors such as Isaac Azimov and Arthure C. Clarke (that is how his name is CORRECTLY spelled)... and then spout off with a ridiculous outburst such as this...  :drunken_smilie: please...  what are you drinking?  :beerburp:

QuoteThat some might consider that other beings live outside the earth, does not challenge that destiny whatsoever...

It challenges what God tells us in Genesis, that he created the lights in heaven for us-- to give light on the earth in the day and in the night, for signs and seasons, for days, months, and years.

He didn't create the lights in the heavens as homes for little green men.

Nobody but us cares about notating signs, seasons, days, months, and years--or has the monkey calendar been discovered?

willieH: Hi Molly...  :sigh:

Quote from: willieHVolunteering your friends HEARSAY as VALID proof... please...   

There are cartoon shows about spaceships Molly... they provide as much PROOF as does your friends ALLEGED  experience...

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:16:31 AMYou don't have to take my word for it.  Go on the internet and watch them.  Watch the group of people, from radar controllers to pilots to military, give their testimony about them.

Look at the crop circles which they are becoming so proficient at drawing in the wheat fields.

You have no idea who you are discussing this matter with... I am an ALIEN and SCIENCE FICTION NUT!

I have written 3 Science fiction novels...

And have seen just about EVERY documentary about UFO's, Crop Circles, and most ALL movies made on the subject since the 50's...

I am NOT completely convinced that EXTRATERRESTRIALS exist... there is phenomenon that is taking place which is 90% explainable... But when you are speaking 10% of cases world-wide that are UNEXPLAINABLE... it piles 10 of every hundred that go UNEXPLAINED! 

Over years there are THOUSANDS of UNEXPLAINED phenomenon, not only UFO, but USO (unidentified submerged objects), and Crop Circles... You see some show that some hick claims to be the perpertrator of crop circles, and then believe him or others like him to be responsible for ALL of them... thousands  world-wide, even done in the ice and snow... in places inaccessable... please...

You are welcome to remain gullible if you choose... that is your right...

You obviously know nothing of this field... as the Crop circle phenomenon has been photographed IN progress, where NO PERSONS were present, yet circles appeared...

Hoaxes abound, yes... but there is phenomenon occuring which is NOT hoaxed and remains UNEXPLAINED.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:16:31 AMOr use the common sense that God gave you to realize that we have really advanced much further in 100 years of flight than the put-put jet engine.  We are talking here about the human race that has split the atom and the gene in the same time period.

And just think Molly... what if GOD has created beings which have NOT experienced our destructive pathway... as did man in the days of NOAH, which wasted time, and progress, and WAR which always slows down the progress of POSITIVE research...

They may have arrived at the point we are at a THOUSAND YEARS ago... think of what Man will be doing technologically speaking in 1000 years from today... you do not even have the capability of understanding such advancement...

You talk about using common sense, and you seldom do this yourself... spouting UNBIBLICAL things, then requiring others to support UNBIBLICAL things... showing NO common sense at all...

You have no idea who I am or what I know...

Do you know anything of what is being researched in computer labs as we speak Molly?  There is activity that would scare all of us...

I had a conversation with a guy to whom I was selling a DVD player when it first came out, say 10yrs ago... He was working in a lab, and laughed at my "new technology" sale... noting that this technology I was selling as NEW, was already 10yrs old! 

He was also considering a different line of work, because the projects they are working on in secret are bordering on MAGIC... defying Physical principles...

No Molly, if you think that what you see is current... you are as old in your thinking as were those in the 50's...

If others in the Universe have not traveled a destructive pathway, they could perform feats that we would watch with our eyes, and promptly NOT BELIEVE what we just observed... 

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:16:31 AMThey exist alright.

Yeah Molly... they probably DO exist, ...and with the BIBLE, let's face it, ...YOU cannot PROVE they DO NOT...   :Book: :shakepoint:

Btw ...I'm still waiting for you to quote my "words" or Craig's for that matter, ...about ALIENS controlling anything!  :gamer: :dontknow:

QuoteNo Molly, if you think that what you see is current... you are as old in your thinking as were those in the 50's...

Now you are saying exactly what I just said--that there is technology out there that is being kept secret from us--

Let's take a look at that first, before we believe in any aliens.  Just because something is unexplained to you, does not mean that there isn't some man somewhere who invented it and understands it completely.


Matthew 10:26
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:32:36 AM

He didn't create the lights in the heavens as homes for little green men.

Molly,  you may indeed be right about this, because your view of "aliens" is based upon what people think they will look like or be like.

God created everything,  and certainly, he did not create everything for the "IMAGE" of creatures that come out of our imagination through fear.


However,  if indeed one day we find some little green bretheren out there,   God loves them just as much and his Gift of life will be for them too.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 07:00:20 AM

Now you are saying exactly what I just said--that there is technology out there that is being kept secret from us--

Let's take a look at that first, before we believe in any aliens.  Just because something is unexplained to you, does not mean that there isn't some man somewhere who invented it and understands it completely.


Matthew 10:26
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

There are speculations that the technological explosion in the past 30 years was fueled by alien technology that was found from some that crash landed here.

I personally love science fiction,  and like Willie,  I cannot say for sure one way or another.    ALL I am saying is that your proof from the bible is not conclusive proof.   It is evidence just like any other theory.

But when you can show a verse that says, "Aliens do not exist" as you expect us to show a verse that says "Aliens do exists" then the discussion will seem a bit more rational from your end of it.   So do not expect others to produce evidence you yourself cannot produce.

As it stands now,  the only evidence that is conclusive is that the bible cannot be used to prove or disprove Aliens, only that the bibles words are open enough to extend GODS love and purpose to any extreme of the universe whatever it may be.

QuoteHowever,  if indeed one day we find some little green bretheren out there,   God loves them just as much and his Gift of life will be for them too.

I love my dog but he's not my brethren.

If God has put water on some planet out there, it is so we will have a watering hole when we get there.

Everything that Christ has shown us in the Bible dictates that he is the highest being in the universe and he is my brethren.

It's hard to believe--it sounds so remarkable--but we are it--this whole thing was created for us.

Yet, the sooner we realize that, the better.

There is nothing above us in the universe but God, and no equal but Christ.

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

QuoteThere are speculations that the technological explosion in the past 30 years was fueled by alien technology that was found from some that crash landed here.

There isn't any technological explosion that is particular to the last thirty years.  I know about computers that were counting on their fingers to a million 30 years ago before they executed an instruction--to slow them down.  Why slow them down, you say?  Because the technology was being hidden from the general public.  My friend saw the UFO 40 years ago.  Tesla invented wireless, free electricity over 100 years ago.

No aliens around,--just greedy, evil men.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 07:21:52 AM
I love my dog but he's not my brethren.

I did not say your dog was your bretheren.

Quote
If God has put water on some planet out there, it is so we will have a watering hole when we get there.

Discovering water on a planet is not what we are talking about.

Quote
Everything that Christ has shown us in the Bible dictates that he is the highest being in the universe and he is my brethren.

No one in this thread is saying an alien life form from another planet would question Christ's place in the kingdom.

Quote
It's hard to believe--it sounds so remarkable--but we are it--this whole thing was created for us.

Yet, the sooner we realize that, the better.

There is nothing above us in the universe but God, and no equal but Christ.

Again, you try to prove that with words from scripture that are not there,  furthermore you expect people to produce verses with detail you yourself have not.

Quote
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Great verse and intelligent life on another planet would be sanctified as well.

I can easily believe either way.  It would not be shocking if we were the only ones,  it would be equally reasonable if there were others.  Either way it cannot be "proven" with the bible.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 07:33:29 AM

QuoteThere are speculations that the technological explosion in the past 30 years was fueled by alien technology that was found from some that crash landed here.

There isn't any technological explosion that is particular to the last thirty years.  I know about computers that were counting on their fingers to a million 30 years ago before they executed an instruction--to slow them down.  Why slow them down, you say?  Because the technology was being hidden from the general public.  My friend saw the UFO 40 years ago.  Tesla invented wireless, free electricity over 100 years ago.

No aliens around,--just greedy, evil men.

Not all of it is based on that.  For the most part,  a lot of technological advances are delayed due to government regulations concerning safety.

There are probably many many cool things that if you received them in your home untested and unregulated would probably end up killing or maiming you, others,  or burning down your home.   That happens enough even with testing.

What I am saying about the advances is in things at the atomic level of discovery, DNA,  all sort of intriguing things.  I am not saying I believe that, I am just saying that people come up with all kinds of ideas about aliens and those ideas instill fear.

Indirectly there is fear and doubt instilled into the us about the government, black helicopters and secret agents watching our every move, just waiting to pounce on you.   Aliens are a great tool that is used to do that.  Christians talk a big talk about faith and they show so much fear it is hard to believe they have any faith at all.   But what faith will Jesus find on earth when he returns?  We can look around and see for ourselves.

So objections about aliens as you have alluded to with comments such as "bug eyes" and "little green men" are simply a pattern of indoctrination of mans image, not any bases in reality one way or another.

Lots of people see UFO's.    Anything you see flying that you cannot identify is an "Unidentified Flying Object"  it has nothing to do with extraterrestrials,  because if you could prove it was an extraterrestrial craft it would not be unidentified any longer.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHThat some might consider that other beings live outside the earth, does not challenge that destiny whatsoever...

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:32:36 AMIt challenges what God tells us in Genesis, that he created the lights in heaven for us-- to give light on the earth in the day and in the night, for signs and seasons, for days, months, and years.

It certainly DOES NOT...  :thumbdown:

What about Stars which are SO DISTANT that not only does their light NOT REACH the earth, and not only does it NOT enter into SIGNS or SEASONS, but it cannot even be photographed except by HIGH POWERED photographic telescopes...

The Scripture does NOT say that the Stars giving light upon the earth, is the sole reason that GOD's PURPOSES for the Stars of the Heavens...

That it does mention the LIGHT which (SOME of) the stars give, is certainly part of their PURPOSE, certainly not ALL...

The Word does not say that is ALL the stars are for, nor does it say that ALL the stars do this, it just states that He set LIGHTS in the Heavens to show light upon the earth, and for signs and for seasons and years... this job is mainly the job of the SUN and MOON, not the distant Stars...

Let me quote the verses:

Gen 1:14-17

14  And GOD said, let there be LIGHTS in the firmament of the heaven to divide DAY from the NIGHT and let them be for SIGNS and for SEASONS, and for DAYS and FOR years...   Distant Stars have nothing to do with this... "them" be the Sun and MOON, which are involved in ALL these processes...

15  And let THEM be for LIGHTS in the firmament of the heaven to give LIGHT upon the earth and it was so... The SUN and MOON give LIGHT upon the earth...

16  And GOD made TWO great LIGHTS; the greater light to rule the DAY and the lesser light to rule the NIGHT:  He made the STARS also...  It is the SUN and MOON bring light in day and in night... the STARS are merely an "also" factor...

17  And GOD set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.  This (in my observation) is still concerned with the SUN and MOON and their divinely assigned duties to give LIGHT upon the earth... this was not the primary duty of the STARS...


The SUN and MOON are the LIGHTS which are involved with giving LIGHT upon the earth, and that which is for SIGNS (Joel 2:31) and for SEASONS - winter, spring, summer, fall... and for YEARS one revolution of the earth around the SUN is the determination of a YEAR...

What do distant STARS have to do with our SEASONS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with our YEARS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with LIGHT upon earth? ...very little if any...
What do distant STARS have to do with SIGNS?  ...what SIGNS? ...nothing...

What does the Sun have to do with our SEASONS? ...everything...
What does the Sun have to do with our YEARS? ...they are determined BY IT...
What does the Sun have to do with LIGHT upon the earth? ...everything...
What does the Sun have to do with SIGNS?  ...several are noted in the OT...

What does the Moon have to do with our SEASONS? ...it contributes...
What does the Moon have to do with our YEARS? ...monthly cycle is determined by it...
What does the Moon have to do with LIGHT upon the earth? ...a LOT at NIGHT...
What does the Moon have to do with SIGNS? ...it is mentioned in the OT with such...

So in the end... the SUN and MOON are that which have to do with the earth... MOST of the Stars have nothing to do with the earth Molly...  :dontknow:  believe what you will...

For MOST of the STARS which EXIST in the Heavens, CANNOT even be SEEN from earth... let alone broadcast light upon it... and those Stars which cannot be seen, DO NOT serve as SIGNS nor, are they part of any SEASONAL determinations on earth...

You are really in a tunnel Molly... and have conveniently placed GOD in a tidy little box... which box contains mostly UNBIBLICAL, and UNPROVEN religious observances...

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:32:36 AMHe didn't create the lights in the heavens as homes for little green men.

No one has mentioned "little green men" or "20 foot cockroaches" but YOU Molly... so the ridiculous portion of this discussion is ALL YOURS...  :LH:

1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

--Psalm 8


13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

--Hebrews 1

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:18:53 AM
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Yes, his name is excellent in ALL the earth,  but it does not say "only" the earth.  And again, earth is not a strict translation, earth is but one translation because we are on earth.


The rest could apply to any culture, any world, anywhere.

QuoteWhat do distant STARS have to do with our SEASONS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with our YEARS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with LIGHT upon earth? ...very little if any...
What do distant STARS have to do with SIGNS?  ...what SIGNS? ...nothing...

You clearly have never navigated on the ocean.

Good thing you didn't work for Christopher Columbus, but I am sure he thanked God for the stars.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:25:34 AM

QuoteWhat do distant STARS have to do with our SEASONS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with our YEARS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with LIGHT upon earth? ...very little if any...
What do distant STARS have to do with SIGNS?  ...what SIGNS? ...nothing...

You clearly have never navigated on the ocean.

Good thing you didn't work for Christopher Columbus, but I am sure he thanked God for the stars.

What about the stars Columbus could not see?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:24:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:18:53 AM
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Yes, his name is excellent in ALL the earth,  but it does not say "only" the earth.  And again, earth is not a strict translation, earth is but one translation because we are on earth.


The rest could apply to any culture, any world, anywhere.

This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'


4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

--Psalm 8


What does 'all things' leave out?

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM

What does 'all things' leave out?

Exactly,  life on another world would indeed be part of all things.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:26:27 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:25:34 AM

QuoteWhat do distant STARS have to do with our SEASONS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with our YEARS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with LIGHT upon earth? ...very little if any...
What do distant STARS have to do with SIGNS?  ...what SIGNS? ...nothing...

You clearly have never navigated on the ocean.

Good thing you didn't work for Christopher Columbus, but I am sure he thanked God for the stars.

What about the stars Columbus could not see?

He didn't need them to navigate.

But, when God wishes us to see them, we will, and we have--we have peered into the beginning of the universe by now.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Where does the Bible say there is a man living on some other planet in the universe?

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Where does the Bible say there is a man living on some other planet in the universe?

Where does it say there is not? 

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:32:59 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Where does the Bible say there is a man living on some other planet in the universe?

Where does it say there is not? 

Ok. I could go for that.

Is he single?

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:35:37 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:32:59 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Where does the Bible say there is a man living on some other planet in the universe?

Where does it say there is not? 

Ok. I could go for that.

Is he single?

They are likely not all married, there is still hope.

You could write The Single Woman's Guide to the Universe.

Sure to be a best seller. :bigGrin:

How convenient Molly, that you ignore what I have presented to you in challenge.  :thumbdown:

In my old days, I would be persistent until there was nothing more to be persistent about; so unless you change the direction of your posts, this is my last post to you concerning this topic.  :sigh:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:44:54 AM
You could write The Single Woman's Guide to the Universe.

Sure to be a best seller. :bigGrin:

Hey , now we are on to something.

I died out laughing when I found this verse.


Psalms 54:3 "For aliens, they rise against me, And terrifiers, they seek my soul; They do not set Elohim in front of them. { Interlude }


Maybe we should be afraid after all.    :mshock:

 :mshock:


Oh whew--he's talking about strangers--

"aliens"
H2114
זוּר
zûr
zoor
A primitive root; to turn aside (especially for lodging); hence to be a foreigner, strange, profane; specifically (active participle) to commit adultery: - (come from) another (man, place), fanner, go away, (e-) strange (-r, thing, woman).

QuoteHow convenient Molly, that you ignore what I have presented to you in challenge. 

Sorry, Craig.  I missed the challenge.  I'll go scour back and look for it.

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 04:18:20 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 03:35:02 AM

Quote from: joyful1 on July 06, 2008, 03:07:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on July 06, 2008, 02:04:37 AM

These things God did create, yet in the creation story, there is no mention of these things. We know they are real and they exist, therefore just because something is not mentioned in Scripture, does not mean it does not exist. On the same token, if something is not mentioned in Scripture, it does not nessesarily mean it does exist either.

So are aliens real or not?  :happygrin:

Not real.

Everything was created by him and for him--of which we are co-heirs with Christ.

Which neither enforces or denies the existance of extra-terrestial life. So what is your point?

Is this your challenge?

My point is that God has put man, as co-heirs with Christ, above everything, so I don't think he would leave out a detail so huge as aliens living on other planets in the universe.  I mean, it's not like forgetting to mention the armadillo or something.  :grin:  If there are aliens out there, He would have told us.  Instead he tells us he created the objects in the heavens for our purposes on earth.

Although, I think I'm finally understanding what Paul is saying--that there are men living across the universe, reading our Bible, on a planet called earth, and they are the aliens.  I don't know what I think about that, yet.  It kind of gives me doublevision.

Let me first say, Molly,  :icon_queen: I totally understand your desire to be helpful and be a teacher to those who do not know what you know. I absolutely respect that. I know you think you are being helpful by providing the 'evidence' you think you are providing is helpful.

So do not take this wrongly, when I say this bluntly, your points have nothing to do with extra-terrestrial life and their existence or not. Can you not see your platform is classic "Non Sequitur" fallacies.

You commit the following, without even recognizing it.

* Affirming the Consequent: If A then B. B is true, so A is true.
* Denying the Antecedent: If A then B. A is false, so B is false.

ie: There is aliens mentioned in scripture, if aliens exist. If there are aliens exist, they would be mentioned in Scripture.
ie: There are no aliens in existence, if they are not mentioned in Scripture. There is no aliens mentioned in scripture, therefore aliens do not exist.

They are fallacies and do not prove anything. If aliens are not mentioned in Scripture, it means that aliens are not mentioned in Scripture, that is all. It does not deny aliens exist.

* In a Certain Respect and Simply: Extending assumed boundaries too far.

ie: We are co-heirs with Christ, therefore we are the only co-heirs with Christ.
ie: Life comes from Eve, therefore all life comes from Eve.

These are fallacies and do not prove anything. Whether or not we are co-heirs with Christ, and whether or not all human life comes from Eve, does not make us the only co-heirs with Christ, and that all life comes from Eve. It does not deny aliens exist.

* Missing the Point: Drawing the wrong conclusion.

Just about every other point you have made, has missed the point.

ie:

Quote
My point is that God has put man, as co-heirs with Christ, above everything, so I don't think he would leave out a detail so huge as aliens living on other planets in the universe.  I mean, it's not like forgetting to mention the armadillo or something.  grin  If there are aliens out there, He would have told us.  Instead he tells us he created the objects in the heavens for our purposes on earth.

Nowhere have you demonstrated this, you just made up a conclusion that doesn't exist from the facts that you mentioned. If we have dominion over all things, that means we have dominion even over the things in the heavens, which includes extra-terrestrial life. There is no reason to assume that these things must be mentioned especially since 'all things' encompasses, 'all things'.

Ironically leading me to the last of the fallacies that you use!

* Logical Inconsistency

ie:

Quote4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

--Psalm 8


What does 'all things' leave out?

This fallacy is when you present two contradicting arguments in order to prove your position.

First you say that these things would be mentioned, and then you say,"What does 'all things' leave out?".

Well which is it? When he said, "All things" how does this exclude extra-terrestrial life?

When will you realize, the truth can only be confronted by the truth, and that the continual usages of error, only portrays you are in error.So far, I have found 5 fallacies you have used to assert your confident position. If a position has fallacy, then the position is fallacious.

I ask you Molly, if the truth is surely what you pursue and want to teach then please think before you speak. If you think you know something, make sure you know it because when you don't it is very obvious. If you are being contradicted, and your errors are being pointed out, consider that you might be wrong and remain teachable! You bring up great points about what and who we are, but none of these things are relevant to 'aliens'. I find you constantly are trying to justify what you think we are to believe, rather than believing what is true.  :thumbdown:

All you can say is, you just don't believe there is extra-terrestrial life. Just like those who do, can say they do. There is no for sure yes or no, and it doesn't really matter either way.

Do not be discouraged, learn from your mistakes and build upon your successes.  :bgdance: :boyheart: :girlheart:

 :sigh:

Sorry, I don't like seeing discussions that have no substance being used as proof for anything. Those who said that their might be extra-terrestrial life, agree it might be and perhaps even hope for, but know that there might not be.

delete 

whoa, Craig.  I'm not trying to *teach* anyone anything.  Nor am I seeking to *learn* anything from any man.

These discussions greatly bless me because the spirit of truth shows me wonderful things during them.  It's God I'm seeking, not the platonic rules of debate.

I've known instinctively for a long time that there are no aliens.  Now I know why--because of the position that Christ--who is pre-eminent--has put man into with respect to the universe.  If all things were created for him, then all things were also created for us.  The emotional impact of that is something you cannot buy or argue.  He showed me that yesterday.

All the complicated intricacy of the honeybee and the flower is so that we can have honey on our toast.  Willie was being sarcastic, but it's true.  The horsehead nebula that he tucked away in an obscure corner of the universe waiting for us to discover it, so that when we did our jaws would drop at its beauty,-- he did that for us--to delight us and encourage us--to show us his glory--because he delights in us, too--because he loves us with a love we cannot fathom.  All day long he is telling us how much he loves us and how important we are to him if only we could hear it.




22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

---Proverbs 8

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:02:26 PM
I've known instinctively for a long time that there are no aliens.  Now I know why--because of the position that Christ--who is pre-eminent--has put man into with respect to the universe.  If all things were created for him, then all things were also created for us.  The emotional impact of that is something you cannot buy or argue.  He showed me that yesterday.

All the wonders of the universe does not mean there cannot be another world somewhere else.   I can't tell you to not believe whatever you believe, but an emotional experience does not mean that you were shown the truth about anything.

I say that because I hear other people believe God told them something, they are purely convinced that God spoke to them and thats that. I have witnessed too many negative things from someone claiming a vision, a word from the Lord to try to convince others that the Lord spoke directly to them and that they need to be listened to because of that.

  I don't mean to demean you, but it is convenient that you state you know something about which there is little chance of it being conclusively proven one way or another.

I simply reject that the Lord spoke to you about anything concerning this topic.   Thats my opinion, hope you understand my skeptisism and it is nothing "personal".

I am only going by the experience of seeing people hurt others through these kind of bold claims when they are proven blatently wrong.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:25:34 AM

QuoteWhat do distant STARS have to do with our SEASONS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with our YEARS?  ...nothing...
What do distant STARS have to do with LIGHT upon earth? ...very little if any...
What do distant STARS have to do with SIGNS?  ...what SIGNS? ...nothing...

You clearly have never navigated on the ocean.

Good thing you didn't work for Christopher Columbus, but I am sure he thanked God for the stars.

Where does it say in the Bible that the STARS were placed there for NAVIGATION Molly? :pitiful:

The Bible doesn't say the Stars were placed there for NAVIGATION, so I guess they must not BE for that, -- eh Molly?

Just FYI, something you DO NOT KNOW:  ...I HAVE sailed across the Atlantic Ocean, have YOU done so, Molly?  :dontknow:  (I kinda doubt it!  :laughing7:)

About Navigation, ...I thought, according to YOU, the ONLY PURPOSE for the STARS was that they GIVE LIGHT upon the earth?  :dontknow: 

Where does it say that that this LIGHT shall be put to USE by men?  This is an ADDITIONAL PURPOSE... which the STARS provide... and has absolutely NOTHING to do with SEASONS, DAYS, YEARS, or SIGNS...

This additional PURPOSE which they have... to help travelers find their way eh?  :dontknow:  Is it BIBLICAL?  :dontknow:  ...Guess like '55 Chevys, GOD left this "purpose" out -- eh?

Regardless, ...the Stars which Christopher Columbus and other sailing adventurers use for navigation, are NOT the DISTANT STARS Molly...

What SIGNS are shown in the DISTANT  STARS Biblically Molly?  I will thank you for noting them... (if you even know of any) Btw, ...I am really curious as to what you KNOW about this aspect of the STARS...  :dontknow:

What do the STARS have to do with the SEASONS Molly? :dunno:

What do the STARS have to do with DAYS Molly?  :Chinscratch:

What do the STARS have to do with YEARS Molly?  :search:

On the BEST, CLEAREST night with the most UNINHIBTED visibility, the MOST STARS that can be SEEN and actually GIVE LIGHT on the earth, is EXTREMELY MINISCULE in comparison to the NUMBER of them which actually ARE IN the Heavens...  :dontknow:

Your words are continuously foolish, and you shall reap what you sow...

Unteacheable, obstinate, just as were the Religious of JESUS' day...   :sigh:

willieH: Hi Molly...  :hithere:

Just so's yaknow...  :IloveU:  dear sister... in spite of your stubborness...  :mwink:

Where are those QUOTES of Craig and I, noting that ALIENS CONTROL UFO's?  :dontknow:

Are you having some trouble FINDING those "quotes", ...Molly?   :laughhand:

Willie's Bees


Did God do all of this for me?

Did he create the honey bee

To work the flowers in my yard,

To work the hours, long and hard,

So he could gather something sweet

To carry back to his own street,

And work some more when he gets there,

Inside his hive, enough to share

With other bees and bears and me--

To sweeten up my morning tea?

Did God do all of this for me?

Did he create the honey bee

So I could have that something sweet

Upon my bitter toast to eat?

Oh, yes he did!  It's true!  It's true!

He did it--every bit--for You!




" 'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.' " (Jeremiah 29:11)

willieH: Hi Molly...  :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:02:26 PM
All the complicated intricacy of the honeybee and the flower is so that we can have honey on our toast.  Willie was being sarcastic, but it's true. 

I was certainly NOT being sarcastic Molly, ...I was pointing out that A SURFACE OBSERVATION notes the blessing of the HONEY on the toast, and fails to recognize the deeper blessings of GOD! 

Which are contained along the way within the MANIFESTATION of that HONEY, as its processing is eventually completed, arriving upon the toast... and in conclusion, delights the taste buds of your mouth...  :bgdance:  Having blessed the Bee and the Flower, and the Beekeeper, and the Store which sold it, ...on its journey to YOU...

Which process, is condusive in ALL BIBLICAL observation... what appears to be said on the SURFACE, always has DEEPER meaning...

Seeking the DEEPER MEANING without CHANGING what IS WRITTEN on the SURFACE... IS where the TRUTH is found...

That GOD set the STARS in the heavens to "give light upon the earth" is the BEGINNING or SURFACE of the PURPOSE, which YOU, have already shown to be DEEPER than you first percieved, by noting that this STARLIGHT is useful in NAVIGATION, even though NAVIGATION is NOT MENTIONED as their PURPOSE...  :dontknow:

If this is so, and it IS... then the STARS can have MUCH DEEPER PURPOSE, than you (or I) might even be able to imagine... such as being set in the heavens to BLESS other life which GOD has created elsewhere...  :dontknow:

Molly,

I agree 100% that the honey bee is a magnificent creature that was created and we are blessed by it in many ways.   Do you have a nice poem about the wasp to give someone after a sting? 

I believe every creature has a purpose, even if I am annoyed by flies during a picnic.

Another world may have unique creatures on it too, created on that world and its inhabitants that are like us would be reading the scriptures seeing they have dominion over the creatures on that world.   What we have translated to Earth may be translated from "Gods Word" to whatever they call their world.   The original "Gods Word" is not written on paper.   

I think the difficulty someone has in this issue is overcoming the images that fear has instilled into the world concerning extraterrestrials.  Fear that is based on only the unknown and our inherant nature to see the worst about everything.


I am sorry if it does not make you feel as special to think about God loving people on another world.  But the fact remains that Gods Love will one day cause us to understand how that doesn't matter.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Nice poem!  :happygrin:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 10:49:27 PM
Willie's Bees


Did God do all of this for me?

Did he create the honey bee

To work long hours, in my yard,

To work the flowers, long and hard,

So he could gather something sweet

To carry back to his own street,

And work some more when he gets there,

Inside his hive, enough to share

With other bees and bears and me--

To sweeten up my morning tea?

Did God do all of this for me?

Did he create the honey bee

So I could have that something sweet

Upon my bitter toast to eat?

Oh, yes he did!  It's true!  It's true!

He did it--every bit--for You!

Ah yes, ...HE did it for me IN CONCLUSION, ...but as I previously noted, the deeper observation shows that HE also, DID it for the FLOWER, and HE DID it for the BEE, and HE DID it for the BEEKEEPER, and HE DID IT for the STORE PROPRIETOR, as it made its WAY to ME... Blessing not only my Toast, but...

NATURE,  :HeartThrob: as the BEE and FLOWER interacted... and have prospered because of it... creating FELLOWSHIP between the FLOWER and the BEE...  :LoveH1:

THE BEEKEEPER,  :HeartThrob: as he helps the BEE and protects it while finding prosperity in his work... creating FELLOWSHIP between the BEEKEEPER and the BEE...   :LoveH1:

THE STORE PROPRIETOR,  :HeartThrob: as he WORKS for his living finding prosperity, while providing a service which I NEED...  creating FELLOWSHIP between the STORE PROPRIETOR and ME...   :LoveH1:






ME...  :HeartThrob: which finds prosperity in the blessing of the HONEY which garnishes my toast which norishes and prospers my body... creating FELLOWSHIP between ME and MY BODY...  :LoveH1:

:mfriends:  Thanks for the poem Molly...  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 06, 2008, 08:28:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 08:27:38 AM
This is talking about man, not 'any world anywhere.'

Explain why intelligent life on another world would not be man?

Where does the Bible say there is a man living on some other planet in the universe?

where does the Bible say the opposite... that there is NOT a man living on some other planet in the Universe?

"Navigating by the stars
In the early 1970s members of the Polynesian Voyaging Society in Hawaii searched for Polynesians who remembered traditional navigation techniques. There were none, but they eventually tracked down Mau Piailug from the island of Satawal in Micronesia, who could navigate the open ocean without instruments. He guided the Hōkūle'a from Hawaii to Tahiti and back using a star compass, shown here. Mau Piailug shared his knowledge with Nainoa Thompson, who became the first Polynesian in centuries to use celestial navigation on long distance ocean voyaging when he repeated the journey in the same vessel in 1980.



The 360° horizon around the canoe was divided up into different sectors named 'houses' and these were marked on canoe railings. Navigators would know that the arcs of the sun and other stars cross the sky at different heights depending on the time of year. This canoe is travelling due north at the spring equinox, when the sun rises due east and sets due west. At night the rising and setting of stars were used to align the canoe in a direction of travel. For example, when Star A set, Star B was used, and so on through the night until the earth's own star, the sun, rose. The sun was used at dawn and dusk."




14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

[for] "signs"


H226
אות
'ôth
oth
Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

Hi Molly!
That was a fascinating story! I vaguely remember something about that voyage....the tool described looked like a Celtic cross in one way, didn't it? It's not hard to see how men in past centuries were actually MORE intelligent that we are today. They didn't NEED computers, because they could carry so much information in the heads.....that's not to say that in every time period and in EVERY culture, there were ALWAYS those who were unable to or chose not to use their intelligence to its highest potential. Here is one fine and easy example.....try finding George Washington's Diary on line.....now read one page without looking at a dictionary. It's not that the English was that different, its simply that he was THAT much more proficient with the language and maintained a much larger vocabulary than the average human today. Did you know that Benjamin Franklin was able to write in 2 different languages with each of his hands....AT THE SAME TIME?? He wasn't an anomaly in society, there were many men trained in this method during the 17th and 18th centuries. I'm always amazed at the astonishing discoveries made on a fairly regular basis showing that the gene pool is indeed winding down, not UP!
Joyce :)

1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ[c] was to be born. 5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
      are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
   for out of you will come a ruler
      who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

7Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.


--Matthew 2

Hi Joyce, Yes it's just amazing.  It's like a compass which orients the entire night sky to your boat.  They knew all the different constellations and their placement at different times of the year. I can't imagine crossing the Pacific at night in a canoe, much less from one such distant island to another.  You can't afford to miss.

Yes, they knew a lot more than we do because they had to.  Probably had more fun, too. The stars in the middle of the ocean are spectacular.

PS Hawaii to Tahiti is 2200 nautical miles. :mshock:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 07, 2008, 04:19:38 AM
Did you know that Benjamin Franklin was able to write in 2 different languages with each of his hands

You should check out the ripleys believe it or not story about the person who can write in several languages with both hands and both feet at the same time.

Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2008, 04:40:04 AM

Yes, they knew a lot more than we do because they had to.  Probably had more fun, too. The stars in the middle of the ocean are spectacular.

Hey is this thread being hijacked?  :happy3:   I wonder what stars those on another world use for Navigation?  I wonder what constellation our sun (which is a star) is a part of on another world?  I wonder, if another world may detect our earth at such a distance they can only speculate about life, thinking hey there might be water there.

I like to wonder,  I wonder what a believer on another world, a brother across the galaxy, might say for their children in a prayer.   And if one day it is proven that we are it,  so be it.  Until then, the bibles open language, metaphoric and intepretive nature allows the possibility.  Even if they happen to have bug eyes, and green skin, God loves them too.

It is a shame that people are in such fear.



As far as having more fun.....


People forget (or were never taught) that travel on the sea in those days was very dangerous and there were many tragic deaths.  Many people got scurvy among other things till they learned they needed fruit with vitamin C.  Not quite sure if they knew it was vitamin C specifically or not.

We probably won't figure out 100% for sure how the pyramids were built because there is no culture today enslaving millions of people to build them anymore.


I suppose it all looks cute in the movies.

C. S. Lewis speculated that one reason we at this time wouldn't know about other races of intelligent beings that lived out among the stars, even if some of them knew about us, could be because our planet is quarantined because of sin.  Until that is cleaned up we are off limits.  This idea is intimated in one of the titles from his science fiction trilogy, Out of the Silent Planet.

The land promise to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, is understood to mean enjoy inheriting the cosmos (Rom 4:13), not just a fingernail clipping's worth of sand in the Sinai peninsula, or even this planet (which reveals part of the robbery of Racial Dispensationalism's deception.)  Mankind is over the works of God's hands; but, until he inherits the earth of his own body in resurrection at the time appointed of the Father he is not of age and can only exercise an earnest of his authority.

What would there be for us in a Universe of only raw materials?  How long can we be satisfied to only eat and defecate, play and learn, procreate and create?  Not all of these functions are going to remain in the humanity God is bringing forth in the recreation in Christ.  One of the most enduring functions indicated in Scripture is whatever is done by those described as of The Melchizedek Order Priesthood.  So much so that what is written says, "...having neither beginning of days nor consummation (end) of life, yet picturing the Son of God, is remaining a priest into finality." (Heb 7:3)  This seems clearly to refer to immutable Divine nature.  Priests are go-betweens, bringing something to God and bringing God to something.  Intercessors, they define boundaries.  This indicates judgment; hence, rule.  Priests are not so unto themselves.  Dominion is not over one another.  This reveals an obvious waywardness of religious people all around us today.  There is one High Priest, Jesus, and all of His people -- His disciples, which presupposes His presence by whom to be disciplined -- all of us are priests.  Right now, that is to the rest of humanity.  What I am pointing to, however, is that the permanence of this function demands there be others, somewhere, somehow.

Adamic humanity is made of "the dust of the earth" and what dust is in Hebrew is particulates, minute pieces of friable material, many tiny bits is of what we are composed.  What we term elements or atoms might apply.  Even your consciousness is of many little parts.  That it is of the earth makes it Adamic.  That earth or land is everywhere in the material cosmos.  Excepting super dense stars, it is more substantial than other forms of matter that comprise large objects like planets.  Could there also be races specially adapted to gas giants?  Would six winged Seraphim live there before they become immortal?  Another race in liquid?  What really of fire?  Some have speculated intelligences there in the midst of the massive electrical activities.  Whatever is, "The anointed cherub that covereth" it it written that it "...hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." (Ezek 28:14)  Our sun is only liquid fire and cold by comparison.Stars were equated with gods by the ancients.  Was this entirely darkened religious minds?  Joseph's dream indicated that stars were elders of Israel.  God's talk with Abraham indicates his seed would be of three sorts.  One was stars.  This indicates Sons of God.  We are the light of the world.  (Will some light please penetrate the minds of US congressmen!  Maybe the word "drill" would stimulate some mental associations?)

We already are beginning to create "alien" or other life forms.  Some scientists have thought biological life might serve as a sort of short lived bridge to the true and lasting intelligences of the Universe, descendants of what we now call computers.  Are these related to the beasts full of eyes in the midst of and round about the throne that unceasingly cry, "holy?" (Rev 4:6)  We are starting to use DNA.  Where will that road ultimately lead?  Surely if there are no "aliens" yet there are going to be because we will make them.  What better way to populate with worshiping hosts environments that we are not able to survive in our present form?


---James Rohde

wow! :mshock:

It does say 'cosmos.' :mshock:

I never thought to think of that in terms of the universe before.


13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world [KOSMOS], was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

--Rom 4:13

"world"

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.



Main Entry: cos·mos
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'käz-m&s, 1 & 2 also -"mOs, -"mäs
Etymology: Greek kosmos
1 a (1) : an orderly harmonious systematic universe -- 2 : a complex orderly self-inclusive system



I've always wondered why God took Abraham out and showed him the stars.  And, where would all those people come from?  Are we at the beginning of the world rather than the end?



5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

--Genesis 14

yikes.  This is just incredible.



7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world [AION] unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

--1Cor 2

We are inheriting the whole universe. :mshock:

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:02:26 PM
I'm not trying to *teach* anyone anything.  Nor am I seeking to *learn* anything from any man.

Who are you kidding?  :sigh: If that was the case, you would not be in a discussion board.

Quote from: SOtW on July 07, 2008, 05:22:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:02:26 PM
I'm not trying to *teach* anyone anything.  Nor am I seeking to *learn* anything from any man.

Who are you kidding?  :sigh:

If that was the case, you would not be in a discussion board.

I'm on a discussion board because I have very few else to talk to about Christ.

Everyone I know, everyone close to me, is agnostic or atheist or worse.

It is not  my mind, or your mind, that matters--it is in the meeting of minds where Christ exists.



For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.

--Matthew 18

Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2008, 05:39:32 PM

Quote from: SOtW on July 07, 2008, 05:22:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2008, 05:02:26 PM
I'm not trying to *teach* anyone anything.  Nor am I seeking to *learn* anything from any man.

Who are you kidding?  :sigh:

If that was the case, you would not be in a discussion board.

I'm on a discussion board because I have very few else to talk to about Christ.

Everyone I know, everyone close to me, is agnostic or atheist or worse.

It is not  my mind, or your mind, that matters--it is in the meeting of minds where Christ exists.



For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.

--Matthew 18

Then why do you reject the Body of Christ in this discussion board by denying that you are 'teaching' and 'learning'? Yes, your mind and my mind matter. We are all part of the body of Christ.

If you are part of the Body of Christ, then God does use men to teach, and we learn from each other. That is, if you are truly part of the Body of Christ.

Do not deceive yourself or anyone else here. You are teaching, not 'trying' to.

As a result, there are others here who may not have knowledge of aliens (such as my self) but do know how to teach what is true. You should be embracing how to teach the knowledge of aliens (that you presume to know) with truth, not lies (fallacy and logical error is not truth, therefore it is a lie).

Do not deceive yourself or anyone else here. You are 'learning' and God uses by the Holy Spirit every man.

That is why you are in the discussion board, otherwise it doesn't matter if you have few to 'talk' to.

Romans 12:3-8
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
----

1 Corinthians 12:50-28
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
----

So we are part of the Body of Christ, you are not rejected here by me, but your knowledge and how you share your knowledge is flawed, and I am asking you as one of the Body of Christ who knows these things, you only cause more problems when you use error and fallacy to create what you think you believe.

Otherwise, all you are saying is that your mind matters only.

Because if I 'teach' anything, it is Christ.

And, if I 'learn' anything, it is Christ.

It has nothing to do with any particular people, including myself.

My only goal is to learn more about God, which I will only learn from Him.

Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
Because if I 'teach' anything, it is Christ.

And, if I 'learn' anything, it is Christ.

It has nothing to do with any particular people, including myself.

Yes it does. But you reject it and deny it. All you are saying is only your mind matters only. Why are you so stubbornly selfish? Even though you say "it has nothing to do with particular people, including yourself" You demonstrate that is an obviously lie, otherwise you would not be defending yourself and listen more to what others are showing you as well.

I don't understand what you're saying, Craig.  I can only see that you are angry.

I can't 'teach' anybody anything.  I learned that long ago from the atheists.

Neither will I believe something just because some man says it is so, otherwise I'd be an atheist myself.

So there you go.

Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2008, 05:51:22 PM
I don't understand what you're saying, Craig.  I can only see that you are angry.

I am not angry at all.  :thumbdown: That is another fallacy in which you now have adopted in order not to listen. You imagine them angry at you and therefore think you have reason now to reject and not understand it.  :sigh:

If you truly cared about the knowledge of the truth, you would stop using lies to support what you think you believe and start understanding truthful ways of communicating, fallacy-free, in order to understand what is the knowledge of truth in the mind of Christ.

Romans 12:2-8
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

How do you renew your mind to God's will?  :dontknow: You think of yourself in more sober judgment and function as a body not as an individual free of the members of the Body. You indeed may be called to teach! If you are called to teach, then you do need to learn how to communicate the truth so that it remains truthful. That means you need to learn from those who can teach you how to communicate the truth so that it remains truthful.   :cloud9:

That is how the Body of Christ and how the Mind of Christ operates.  :icon_king: :icon_queen:  :bgdance:

Do you mean to say that unless I accept your speculation that there might be aliens out there, I am telling lies?

If the Bible told me there are aliens, I would support you.  Otherwise, there is no reason for me to do that.

Speculate all you want, but don't look for support on that from me.

QuoteI can't 'teach' anybody anything.  I learned that long ago from the atheists.

Neither will I believe something just because some man says it is so, otherwise I'd be an atheist myself.

So there you go.

The reason you can't teach an atheist anything is because they are logical and rational and reasonable. If you are trying to teach them, in the way you are explaining to us what you believe, no wonder you cannot teach an atheist. :mshock: Fallacy (an error in logic), is something that is not true. Therefore, even though what you are sharing with others may indeed be true, it will never be accepted as true because you used a lie to promote it.  :sigh:

Next, you cannot say, "I can't teach anybody anything", because that is not up to you to decide. :boyheart: :girlheart: God's giftings and callings are as He decides. Therefore, you need to be equipped for the time when or if you are teaching, you are teaching the truth according to the truth, that is what the Body of Christ is meant to do.    :bgdance:

Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2008, 06:03:10 PM
Do you mean to say that unless I accept your speculation that there might be aliens out there, I am telling lies?

It is good you don't accept speculation, it is bad you reject speculation based on fallacy. You have no idea where you are telling lies, it is not in acceptance of any speculation. It is how you reject that speculation, which is full of fallacy (lies).

QuoteIf the Bible told me there are aliens, I would support you.  Otherwise, there is no reason for me to do that.

The bible doesn't tell you there is not aliens, either. In fact, Scripture does talk about principalities and powers in high places. It does speak of life in the terms of stars, it does speak concerning strange beasts in heaven that are not found anywhere on earth. There is more proof in Scripture, that demonstrates God created other life in the heavens not related to life on earth. But just like I cannot insist there is alien life, you cannot insist there isn't.

QuoteSpeculate all you want, but don't look for support on that from me.

This is not about support, this about how you don't give support. Your rejection, is full of fallacy.

The Bible talks about principalities and powers in high places in terms of something spiritual--not physical.

At least that's my understanding of Ephesians 6.

Did it ever occur to you that God's purpose for me is not to teach?

So you trying to make me a better teacher is spitting in the wind.

He made me this way, Craig, and I just learned from Christ in Reformer this morning that we are the inheritors of the whole universe.  So continue to try to scrape me off the ceiling if you can.

 :sigh: That means you cease your supposed word studies; stop supporting what you say with your supposed proof. That is "teaching", and you should stop, since you don't want to teach. :mshock:

Quote from: MollyThe Bible talks about principalities and powers in high places in terms of something spiritual--not physical.
At least that's my understanding of Ephesians 6.

Sure, so then can you admit aliens can be spiritual in nature?