'In Christ'...How?

[eaglesway]

Just know that when I started this thread, I am not seeking to go back and forth about this, since as long as we are approaching scripture with the foundation of differing mindsets, that will always bring us to differing conclusions. I simply wanted to share, for anyone desiring to read perhaps an understanding they might not have been familiar with, that they might be willing to consider, to understand how millions in the East have understood these things.

When I consider the various things shared, such as the familiar 'if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation', and 'if anyone does not have the spirit, he is none of his', and a host of other passages, yes, it is easy to get into doctrinal dogfight one way or another, for most here would interpret these things from one foundation, while I would from another, and come to two totally different understandings. Neither view has it totally all together, although we rightly share what we truly believe to be true, knowing we are brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and hopefully truly love one another (something seemingly difficult for doctrinal minded people to express).

If the entire Eastern church and Western church could not come to agreement on this, I know for sure that my little postings are not going to change anyone's mind. But, if even one person at least comes away saying that they can understand why the Eastern church sees a bigger picture, which includes the western understanding in some respects, just not using it as their foundation, then maybe this can help with other parodoxes that people get so hung up on, like free will vs. sovereignty, yeshua being god and man, etc.

As G. K. Chesterton put it: "Paradox is truth standing on its head to attract attention!"

I know that there are things here that are taboo to discuss, such as free will. As I do not know of anyone else sharing the understanding of the churches in the East, and since there are some hot topics in it, this being one of them, if this is something considered as too controversial then let me know and I will cease from it. Even though they do not doctrinally hold to a universalism which has everyone coming to faith in Christ (which I disagree with), I believe they have much to offer as regards what we here on this board hold to, although at first there naturally will be much friction over ways of understanding.

If it is permissible, then I will continue to share, not in a pushy way, but in questions and simply putting it out there for anyone who wishes to consider it, and if desired, to ask me questions about it. I am continuing to learn (and I truly mean that, not just as a cliche) and believe we all can be open to that as well as we pool the facets of Messiah we have and see just how much bigger he is than any of our perspectives of seeing him.

Ronen

I am enjoying these discussions and I have not seen anything that I would want to prohibit in the discussion. Your sharing is always in a good spirit and you contribute many edifying things from your point of view.

As to free will, I am probably the most likely to stir up dissension when I share my view on that subject, so as always, as long as things can be "discussed" in fellowship and not debated in dissension, it's alrite(imo)- however for some reason it doesnt always work out that way  :Chinscratch:

[rosered]

Peter said, in his first message---"Be saved from this perverse generation". I believe he was talking about Adam(as in Adam all die).

To be "saved", as I see it, is to be delivered from death and "made alive"(so also in Christ shall all be made alive)


At the same time, Paul says all are children of God as pertains to creation(we are all His children for in Him we live and move and hav our being)


I have done many studies on verses including "Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers who sleep(carnal, lukewarm), but obviously any revelation of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is an awakening.

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ, as Seth put it, the vine, and can be "put out" or "cut off" from Christ- and then can be grafted back in again.

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

But I also think we can get to hung up looking for doctrinal lines in metaphors that often conflict somewhat because they are not always applied by the original speaker to the subject we are speaking of in the same way we see it.

For instance as I noted earlier- Paul said on Mars Hill, "For we are all His children....". He was speaking to Romans, Greeks and Jews alike, as well as philosophers from all over the civilized world.

Yet Paul says, "If anyman hav not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new."

I think Paul is not drawing lines or thinking of "doctrine" here. He is just describing the glorious state of being available to everyone who is united to Jesus through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So, that said, I look at the issue in question on two levels.

Every being is a child of God as concerns creation and I believe God loves every being He has created and is reconciling them all strictly because of that love. There is no "doctrine" or "law" that is causing a shcizophrenic YHWH(I AM) to redeem anyone- His love is given freely and He has freely given it to the entire kosmos through "the blood of His cross", by which He is reconciling all. Does this mean literal blood pouring over the universe? :o) Nope, but as Paul says, the life is in the blood- so it is "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" into which all are being gathered because of His sacrifice.

Sorry I am rambling a little but,

Paul said(of Israel the adversary of Christ), "They are beloved for the sake of the forefathers but enemies concerning the gospel."

Well what are they?  They are beloved enemies. Are they "in Christ"? As I hav said, imo, no- they have rejected Him and His free Spirit in order to continue in- what? Definitely unbelief, yet they would say they believe in YHWH and the Messiah to come- but deluded and rebellious, they are yet beloved and the owners of irrevocable promises. "So ALL ISRAEL will be saved".

Are they children of God? This is where it gets dicey imo :o). They are beloved in a distinct and irrevocable manner, but Jesus called them children of Cain( a terrible insult) and children of the devil(worse)- but He was speaking to the leadrs of the Sanhedrin mostly. My point? these mataphors are being applied on differing levels in differing circumstances and do not all tie into general doctrines but rather to specific spiritual conditions.

Was Jesus making doctrine? "Oh Jesus said the Jews were children of the devil, children of Cain"! No. He was speaking in spiritual terms that those particular Pharisees understood clearly in order to "divide asunder soul and spirit, and make manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart". He is the one who tries the reins and the hearts. It doesnt say anywhere I read that, "He is the one who makes absolute doctrinal lines and systematic theologies" LOLOL

So imo, when speaking of the spiritual reality of being united to Christ, the new birth is about leaving Adam and being grafted into Christ, but we can get to doctrine driven when concidering these things which are often defined in metaphorical terms on purpose- so that we wont build boxes for God. So that we will understand His love on many levels.

I like this verse

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled.

I say, the Lord know those who are His, and I am an ambassador for my Lord Jesus, announcing recocnciliation for all from the Kingdom of God, which is defintely comin to take over the world :o)

  Thank you Bro John
  for  explaining this  ,sometimes I have to   whisk over  posts and come back when I have time to read and absorb  them   slowly and      think ,    Life is too busy for me these days and I    hope  it to be different one day    soon .

I love what you shared here and agree when thinking of how you explained it .. considering those   verses   along with others   you shared about not having the Spirit of Christ  they are none of His  etc ..



But I  need to explain this better what I meant  , I can never explain   all the thought process    in posts  and  that is not     helpful

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  He is not far from anyone of us   how we move and have our being   Acts 17 , you have shared before

   we are to awaken to righteousness  / justified   live by faith   which is  in Jesus Christ to save us as well   ,[come to the Light and knowledge of Him ] our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord in the time of distress  and sin sick and lost  in the  dead  sea of many peoples tongues and nations .  or in this case the Lake   of trials  and testing

  but thought of   the disciples on the boat   for this example     and   awakened  the Lord  to save them and He  told them where is your faith ?    This meant a lot to me personally     in seeing   what I am trying to explain here

Luk 8:22   ¶   Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth.
Luk 8:23       But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy.
Luk 8:24       And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luk 8:25       And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Some of  this may seem far fetched   and  silly to some
  but for me its the proof in scriptures      that helps me to see them  come alive and move in our own lives

I do believe all creation was made by and though Him as He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .
 

[eaglesway]

Quote    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

I believe that it is difficult at times to sort out the various words used to describe spiritual conditions. The scriptures talk about being dead in sin, without God and hope in the world. it also speaks of being carnal- born of God but walking as if we werent. The scriptures speak of those who not having the law lived the law from the heart and thus being a law unto themselves.

Establishing categories can be a slippery slope so as I said before, I like the scripture that says "The Lord knows those who are His" and as you said- He is near to any and all who call, for "All those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

But, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", so one one level, I may be an adversary, but on another level, God is near me and knows me inside out and loves me and is laboring to bring me to repentence.

To me, this is the love of God and sometimes I despise myself when I get too hung up in definition and doctrine and hav to jerk myself back into the consciousness that God loves everyone and is always reaching out in kindness to all, "For it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentence." So we may be lost without Christ and in the death of Adam, but yet Christ loves us, having died for us while we were yet unrighteous- so are dead to Christ and God? Maybe from our side, but they are alive toward us :o)

"The earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

The Spirit hovers in kindness over the formlessness of our carnality and speaks, "Let there be light!" and that light is the love of God in Christ who died for all and rose for all.

Grace and Peace  :o)

[rosered]

  Thank you John , good thoughts there !

I felt compelled   to share   some inner thoughts and questions !

  and sorry this is so far from Ronens  original post  in Christ... How ? !!

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed  , but I do know if it was not for Gods love  expressed though His  Son  , none could stand  half a chance
  Oh, the mysteries  of Gods ways  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord

He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord

He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .

:thumbsup:

  Thank you James !
I was thinking of how,    He was  on that cross   and stated,''Forgive  them Father for they know not what they do .   also   

in Luke 23
45because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.

46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. 47Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent.


  but has Risen into GREAT power and Glory !   my own mindset had to change  between the    two places     , the  sacrifice    for us all and the  Glory to come  after !! 

[gregoryfl]

Here is another related aspect to this, in reverse, having to do with Christ in man. I am not referring to the truth of whether someone has Christ or not, but the greater reality of whether Christ is in all.

Here is one passage of scripture that most are familiar with:

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

Reading this in virtually every translation today, you would never get even a hint of thinking that this has anything to do with all being in Christ, except perhaps (as I had come to understand) the very last phrase 'the life was the light of men'.

However, I found out that the early church quoted this verse totally different than we have it today, and it makes a huge difference in understanding. Since there was no periods, commas, etc, in those days, one had to insert them where they believed they should be. Here is a comparison of the way it is commonly translated today, with how, as an example, Cyril of Alexandria rendered it.

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

All things were made by Him, and without him was not anything made. That which was made, in it was Life. And the Life was the light of men.

You can see this for yourself here: 
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n103/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n111/mode/2up

Here we clearly see a difference in understanding, the modern day view speaking of life being in the Son...which, of course, is true, and yet...

What John appears to be truly saying, and was interpreted as such in early church, was that Everything that was made had this Life, the Son, in it. This is the conclusion they drew. Feel free to read Cyril's commentary on this.

This to me (who is in Christ, and who Christ is in) is not simply about doctrine. It truly affects so much of how we view each other, again, whether based on the foundation of separation, or of inclusion, neither of which does away with the importance of heeding the upward call, nor of the consequences of rejecting it as long as one does so. It does not, to me, cause me to not feel the need to share the gospel with others...on the contrary, this is the very gospel I feel compelled to share.

I am sure that what I shared about Cyril will most likely not convince anyone to read John 1:3,4 differently, but again, at least you can see that there are others, even those many years closer to our Master than we, who had a different understanding, one that spoke of cohesion and inclusion.

Ronen

[jabcat]

There are lots of "old" theories, understandings, beliefs.  Apostle Paul was about as close to the Savior as anyone after the cross, and he had many things to say about one's need to come to Christ, to believe on Him, have faith in Him, receive Him - that not all are of the faith, etc.  Something more to consider.

[gregoryfl]

Yes, and those things do not go against what I am sharing at all. Those things are all very true. Do you think that I do not believe in the need to receive Christ, or have faith in him, etc? There are definitely those who do not believe and are thus, not of the faith. This is where I think the wall will continue to be, if it is thought that everytime I refer to inclusion, that it somehow negates the human responsibility and response. Where have I done that?.

[gregoryfl]

It feels like the same type of argument I get from my home fellowship (I and my family are the only ones who believe in universal reconciliation). They say that if what I believe is true, that everyone ends up with God in the end, then there is no need for Christ to have died on the cross, and no need to evangelize. They will share all those scriptures which speak of those things, as though they somehow contradict what I believe, which it most certainly does not. Does this make any sense?

[Seth]

When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

[Seth]

The reason I believe UR today is not because someone showed me a scripture with a misplaced comma and an alternate interpretation, and another scripture in which someone had a different way of translating. I believe UR because there are TONS of scriptures which explain it that I didn't even realize were in the Bible. And for the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise there were scriptural explanations that made sense to me.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

That is a good point, I always thought that we obtain the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ. Likewise, there are others who say that one must actually be water baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.

[gregoryfl]

The reason I believe UR today is not because someone showed me a scripture with a misplaced comma and an alternate interpretation, and another scripture in which someone had a different way of translating. I believe UR because there are TONS of scriptures which explain it that I didn't even realize were in the Bible. And for the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise there were scriptural explanations that made sense to me.

And that is exactly the case here as well, with really anything I believe. The scriptures I used to see one way I now see another and they make sense to me in the total scheme of things. Not just one or two, but many.

[gregoryfl]

When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

I am willing to do that, but know that it will not be a simple exercise, for there is a lot to it, just like it is not a simple exercise to go from believing in ET to UR. What I would ask is this then, if anyone wants as full an explanation as I can give...

Let me share what I have for you to read, and instead of coming up with objections to the point, which can end up getting what I am sharing stalled and sidetracked, I would simply ask that questions be directed toward trying to understand where I am coming from, why I see a passage of scripture a certain way. This way I can stay on my flow of thought and I think it will be easier for others to follow. Perhaps also, it would be good is those who read would try to restate what I am bringing out in their own words so I know they definitely understand what I am trying to say.

Does that sound reasonable?

[Seth]

I have no problem with that. In fact I will be content to simply observe and make my decision based on what I see. But my criteria will be based on whether I see a clear and plain teaching from the Apostles. At the end of the day, we all have opinions on what they meant.

[gregoryfl]

If no one else objects, then I will get to work on this. Although I will draw much on the Apostolic writings for this subject, I will also be drawing on the scriptural foundation they had in their day, the Tanach, because parts of it are essential to understanding this from the whole counsel of God.

[jabcat]

Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

Amen, that is the best way to put it

[eaglesway]

Amen and Amen!

[gregoryfl]

As your minds are settled on the matter, then I will respectfully decline sharing anymore on the matter. I am not here to ruffle feathers or worse yet, make enemies. You are all my brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and that relationship means much more to me than trying to prove a point, especially on a matter that I believe does not affect one's salvation. I am not very familiar with mr. Pearson, although if he is saying there is no sin in the world, then I would have to say he is miles apart from what I understand this teaching to be about.

Ronen

[ed]

What is Carlton Pearson's "Doctrine of Inclusion?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Carlton_Pearson-Doctrine_of_Inclusion.html

May want to update this article.  I found it with google.

There are those who believe that Love NEVER fails -- there are some who believe it fails for most of mankind. (1 Cor. 13:8) There are those who believe nothing is impossible with God, while some believe that man's will is greater than God's will to save all mankind. (Luke 1:37) There are those who have great faith in God's promises that all the families and nations of the earth shall be blessed and there are those who don't. (Gen. 12:3; 12:18) Carlton prefers to believe Jesus over the Dark Age traditions perpetuated by those with little faith. Carlton takes Jesus at His word when He said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself." (John 12:32) There are some Christians like Carlton who rejoice when they read Scriptures like the following one and there are those who want to twist it and diminish Christ's glory, honor and power, "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:8-11) (We know that no one can say this except with the Holy Spirit.) Unless one has the faith of a little child, one cannot see the kingdom of God and all its glory. Some have faith to see the finished work of the cross for all mankind, some don't...yet...but eventually everyone will...and that includes you, dear reader. That's what Carlton Pearson's "Doctrine of Inclusion" is all about - it's inclusiveness - it includes everyone! "Oh, you of little faith. Why do you doubt" the power and love of the Savior of the world and His Awesome Father!?
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Carlton_Pearson-Doctrine_of_Inclusion.html

[joeteekay]

Very interesting thread - In Christ - How?
Started back in January by Ronen and I wonder if there really is any easy answer.
Wouldn't it be something if those who are in Christ and have the HS could be somethnig visible (like a halo  :eek:)
Fruits of the spirit are really the most important attribute of a Christian, and even then there are many who do good wqorks that are not part of the body of Christ

I beleive this will continue to be an emigmatic question. Maybe am not directly addressing Ronens original point about the HOW. Sorry about that  :doh:

Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh_10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[eaglesway]

No ruffles brother :o) And you are right, sometimes it is better to leave issues where we are settled in different positions alone once they have been fully discussed, but in no way would we become enemies over a discussion such as this one.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I agree, I wouldn't see you as an enemy over a discussion like this.  :friendstu: