'In Christ'...How?

[gregoryfl]

In the East, we would understand that positional aspect of 'in him' as taking place by grace through his faith, whereby we experience the greater reality of our having been 'in him', in the same way all creation has always been in him, and he in all creation, from the very beginning.

God stands all things in the דבר, his very expression of thought, which is an idomatic way of saying that there is nothing that can exist outside of God, specifically, outside of his word, דבר. This inclusion of all without distinction must not be exclusive of the other truth, which has to do with our response of faith, for if we only hold to the greater reality, then we feel no impetus to share this message with others.

It may be likened to this concept.

Even though, according to Paul, every single human being from Adam onward has been included in the death of Yeshua, and reconciled to God by God himself working this out in Messhiah, yet that greater reality is connected to the reality of this realm, where man by and large does not live as reconciled to God, but as his enemy, in their own minds, and so the impetus for us as believers is to beg others to 'be reconciled to God'! This is not an either/or, it is both/and. All have been reconciled from God's point of view, but from man's, he needs to be reconciled by believing that he has been.

It is the same with anything having to do with 'in him'. These I do not believe to be positional statements so much as they are source statements, when attached to a resulting action. 'In him' would therefore be understood as 'By means of him'....

Then, with regard to those other statements which clearly have to do with position, or location, the overarching reality from God's view is that all, without exception, are 'in Messiah', which is coupled by the human reality that they need to believe this, as God is pleased with each one to reveal his Son IN THEM, not TO THEM, just as he did with Paul.

Messiah was in Paul before he believed, which is why Yeshua said that, when Paul was persecuting believers, he was not only persecuting Messiah, but he was also kicking against the goads, hurting himself in the process, because Messiah was in him during that time, just not revealed IN HIM yet.

Ronen

[rosered]

  Dear Ronen ,
  Thank you for the  above  post !
  Is this more of how you see it now ?
  Being   the east or west , I do believe its   being'' in the Spirit  '' that  changes us all , and yes , we are persuaded !!

  I thought of the main reason,  at the time it come alive, His Word, to know that One God created all things though Jesus Christ and  for Him that Life itself would exist   :HeartThrob:  a simple but huge  understanding 

  1Corinth 8  4So, what about eating meat that has been offered to idols?

Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God

. 5There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords
.
6But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

[eaglesway]

"For He is very near to us, for we are all His children, for in Him we live and move and have our being." Paul at Mars Hill, Acts 17

[micah7:9]

Yes  :dsunny:

[rosered]

  Yes, an excellent  passage !! :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Obviously a wonderful passage (they all are :).  However, as John also indicated elsewhere a few days ago in another thread, I also believe it's one that has a TON of context around it to consider, to put it in proper perspective rather than just totally "stand on its own";  things like 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith (all His free gift through what He did on the cross), receiving Him in faith, etc., etc.

To me, "all his children" means He is God of all, Creator, in control, has the final say, has laid claim to all (satan will win none), all have a spirit which brings natural life that came from Him, breathed life into the nostrils of all (it's all His air), etc...IMO, most of His creation (His natural children) still must be drawn and given faith to believe on Him as Savior (be saved), and the few are called and chosen now (only through grace and HIS decision)...for every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Also that's "our job", telling others (and showing through our relationship with Him and out of love) that He IS the Savior of he world, the perfect Sacrifice, through Him we may be saved - to call on Him and "be ye reconciled to God" as Paul said (the "ministry of reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:18). 

God is good.

[jabcat]

"therefor if anyone is IN Christ Jesus he is a new creation..."  2 Cor. 5:17

[gregoryfl]

Obviously a wonderful passage (they all are :).  However, as John also indicated elsewhere a few days ago in another thread, I also believe it's one that has a TON of context around it to consider, to put it in proper perspective rather than just totally "stand on its own";  things like 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith (all His free gift through what He did on the cross), receiving Him in faith, etc., etc.

To me, "all his children" means He is God of all, Creator, in control, has the final say, has laid claim to all (satan will win none), all have a spirit which brings natural life that came from Him, breathed life into the nostrils of all (it's all His air), etc...IMO, most of His creation (His natural children) still must be drawn and given faith to believe on Him as Savior (be saved), and the few are called and chosen now (only through grace and HIS decision)...for every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Also that's "our job", telling others (and showing through our relationship with Him and out of love) that He IS the Savior of he world, the perfect Sacrifice, through Him we may be saved - to call on Him and "be ye reconciled to God" as Paul said (the "ministry of reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:18). 

God is good.

Thank you for sharing that important point Rose, it is truly 'in the spirit' that any of his truth that we come to experience and understand even occurs. :)

I believe Paul was showing the all encompassing aspect of both realities when he spoke those words eaglesway. The greater reality there, which was given by God even to a pagan man of wisdom, that Paul quotes from, and then the reality of the faith response necessary to enjoy that greater reality, when he said:

And the times of this error Alaha hath made to pass away; and at the present time, he commands all men, that each individual, in every place, should repent. Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge all the earth, with righteousness, by the man whom he has designated: and he turns every man to faith in him, in that he raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:30-31)

Yes Jabcat, even though I am bringing out an aspect of what I call the greater reality, what you shared goes along with the caution I put forth, which was not to take any one of the realities to the exclusion of any other.

I am not sure any passage stands on its own, if the principle of 'from the mouth of two or three witnesses let every matter stand'. We also believe that not everyone is of the faith (2Th 3:2), and that there are those who exhibit the character of the opposer, and so can rightly be called 'children of the devil', etc.

If you don't mind Jab, I would like to talk a bit about this "many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith...' because this is part of why I asked this question originally.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is written that the new birth puts someone from out of Christ to in Christ. I do not see that personally, when I look at all the passage concerning the new birth, but would like to read from you what you specifically see in the new birth texts that tells you that.

[eaglesway]

IMO, If there is no out of Christ, why would there be an "in Christ"?. If anyman be in Christ, he is a new creation. The new creation, "Behold I am making all things new"...is "in Christ". The administration suitable to the fulness of times is the gathering together of all things into one in Christ. If there is no "out of Christ", then it would appear to me there would be no need to gather all things into Christ.  To me the reconciliation of all things is about that gathering process, and only that which is reconciled is gathered, in the context in which the apostles speak. That which is not reconciled(converted from adversary to new creation) is not yet "gathered into one in Christ".

As I see it, Only those who have faith in Christ, are in Christ.

[Seth]

I agree. This is why in John 15 Jesus says, i am the vine and you are the branches, abide in me. He warned what would happen if we did not continue to abide in him, they would be like withered branches that are cut away and thrown to the furnace, metaphorically. We must remain in the tree and if we do not....then we aren't in the tree anymore.

[Seth]

I also don't think Satan is in Christ either, or the demons.

[jabcat]

IMO, If there is no out of Christ, why would there be an "in Christ"?. If anyman be in Christ, he is a new creation. The new creation, "Behold I am making all things new"...is "in Christ". The administration suitable to the fulness of times is the gathering together of all things into one in Christ. If there is no "out of Christ", then it would appear to me there would be no need to gather all things into Christ.  To me the reconciliation of all things is about that gathering process, and only that which is reconciled is gathered, in the context in which the apostles speak. That which is not reconciled(converted from adversary to new creation) is not yet "gathered into one in Christ".

As I see it, Only those who have faith in Christ, are in Christ.

I also don't think Satan is in Christ either, or the demons.

Agreed, amen.

Ronen, all this that I mentioned earlier  " 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  'by grace through faith', 'receiving Him in faith' " is based in specific scriptures, which is part of where I get my understanding. 

Eph. 2:12   "..apart from Christ.. without God and without hope.." Paul said.  I don't believe anyone without God and apart from Christ is "in Christ".  That would be a contradiction.

Those outside the gates I see as "not in Christ", as they are invited to drink of the water of life (Christ) - an act of becoming.  Similar to John saying to those who receive Him (Jesus) He gave the right to become a child of God.  If we receive Him, then I believe prior to that we don't "have" Him (are not in Him).  I think of the scripture quoted earlier, "if any man be in Christ he is a new creation".  I earlier bolded 'in'.  Now I'll highlight IF.  "IF any man be in Christ.." .   To my understanding 'if' implies that some are not (yet). 

I think the following is pretty much what you said you earlier believed but now believe differently.  You said the fellow challenged you to give one scripture about being outside of Christ.  I'm not sure it's based on just one scripture, but a rightly dividing and Spirit revelation of many that fit together to form a "pattern" (although 'without God' does seem pretty specific').  Anyway  yes, I do believe being in Christ is positional - the free gift making each one His child, according as the Spirit draws and He gives faith to believe.  Even though you did and no longer understand it this way, and already know the scriptures, I'll present it anyway; I believe there are many specific scriptures about how to be saved, not 'already are'.   It's my understanding that it's when He gives the faith to believe on Him as Savior, the miracle of the spiritual new birth.  And that until then, we're not yet 'in Christ'.  Otherwise, what would be the point of becoming (the "opposite of" principle).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Acts 16:30,31 ...what must I do to be saved?  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[gregoryfl]

Thank you all for sharing your understanding.

[rosered]

Thank you all for sharing your understanding.

I thank you for bringing out your points and understanding on them Ronen,

as I have all here sharing them .

For me , many of the scriptures /witness   speak of the same things.

This may seem   strange to bring up ,but  many clues  in the WORD   show  a ''sleeping  Lord , sleep in the sense of  dying for sin/error , as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world    , we find many verses   stating the  awaking of the Lord within ones walls of salvation  , David spoke of  in the Psalms   and in SOS and Isaiah   especially .
  and find it very  common for the new testament showing that the CHRIST IN YOU  ALIVE and breathing by the SPIRIT  ,
I know that seems  odd to mention here and now  , but done a study on the word '' awake'' and ''rise '' many years ago   and its always been  a reminder    to me that  the Lord is dead to us  untill the calling upon His name and even Paul states   call on the NAME of the Lord   , and no name under heaven by which you must be saved than Jesus Christ ...
  the name Jesus Christ comes only in the New testament  but /LORD &''annointed One ''    what  explains the hidden     Lord Jesus Christ      and in the new  is where the new name appears  , the Father testifies of the  coming of His son in the old  and the  new  testifies of the Father .
Its a bit complicated    but its sure in both covenants =  testaments /witnesses   .

awake Strong's H6974 - quwts
קוּץ
Transliteration
quwts
Pronunciation
küts (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
A primitive root [identical with קוּץ (H6972) through the idea of abruptness in starting up from sleep (compare יָקַץ (H3364))]
TWOT Reference
904a,2019
Outline of Biblical Usage
to awake, wake up

(Hiphil) to awaken, arouse, show signs of waking, awake
This may or may not be what you are saying   in your  defining   being'' in Christ ''

  but to clarify  a little  I  believe its,,, Christ dead in us to Christ Alive in us  and its proof   to maybe just me  here ,of His Life doing the works  of faith   and we get to witness in and  partake with ,  in   His glory to the Father still  as all the others in times past have ,  still  creating the great cloud of witnesses and Body of Christ /Anointed One purposed in God  with  the healing and raising the dead and making all things new in Him .


trying to be clear , hope this makes some sense to you

[eaglesway]

Peter said, in his first message---"Be saved from this perverse generation". I believe he was talking about Adam(as in Adam all die).

To be "saved", as I see it, is to be delivered from death and "made alive"(so also in Christ shall all be made alive)


At the same time, Paul says all are children of God as pertains to creation(we are all His children for in Him we live and move and hav our being)


I have done many studies on verses including "Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers who sleep(carnal, lukewarm), but obviously any revelation of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is an awakening.

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ, as Seth put it, the vine, and can be "put out" or "cut off" from Christ- and then can be grafted back in again.

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

But I also think we can get to hung up looking for doctrinal lines in metaphors that often conflict somewhat because they are not always applied by the original speaker to the subject we are speaking of in the same way we see it.

For instance as I noted earlier- Paul said on Mars Hill, "For we are all His children....". He was speaking to Romans, Greeks and Jews alike, as well as philosophers from all over the civilized world.

Yet Paul says, "If anyman hav not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new."

I think Paul is not drawing lines or thinking of "doctrine" here. He is just describing the glorious state of being available to everyone who is united to Jesus through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So, that said, I look at the issue in question on two levels.

Every being is a child of God as concerns creation and I believe God loves every being He has created and is reconciling them all strictly because of that love. There is no "doctrine" or "law" that is causing a shcizophrenic YHWH(I AM) to redeem anyone- His love is given freely and He has freely given it to the entire kosmos through "the blood of His cross", by which He is reconciling all. Does this mean literal blood pouring over the universe? :o) Nope, but as Paul says, the life is in the blood- so it is "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" into which all are being gathered because of His sacrifice.

Sorry I am rambling a little but,

Paul said(of Israel the adversary of Christ), "They are beloved for the sake of the forefathers but enemies concerning the gospel."

Well what are they?  They are beloved enemies. Are they "in Christ"? As I hav said, imo, no- they have rejected Him and His free Spirit in order to continue in- what? Definitely unbelief, yet they would say they believe in YHWH and the Messiah to come- but deluded and rebellious, they are yet beloved and the owners of irrevocable promises. "So ALL ISRAEL will be saved".

Are they children of God? This is where it gets dicey imo :o). They are beloved in a distinct and irrevocable manner, but Jesus called them children of Cain( a terrible insult) and children of the devil(worse)- but He was speaking to the leadrs of the Sanhedrin mostly. My point? these mataphors are being applied on differing levels in differing circumstances and do not all tie into general doctrines but rather to specific spiritual conditions.

Was Jesus making doctrine? "Oh Jesus said the Jews were children of the devil, children of Cain"! No. He was speaking in spiritual terms that those particular Pharisees understood clearly in order to "divide asunder soul and spirit, and make manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart". He is the one who tries the reins and the hearts. It doesnt say anywhere I read that, "He is the one who makes absolute doctrinal lines and systematic theologies" LOLOL

So imo, when speaking of the spiritual reality of being united to Christ, the new birth is about leaving Adam and being grafted into Christ, but we can get to doctrine driven when concidering these things which are often defined in metaphorical terms on purpose- so that we wont build boxes for God. So that we will understand His love on many levels.

I like this verse

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled.

I say, the Lord know those who are His, and I am an ambassador for my Lord Jesus, announcing recocnciliation for all from the Kingdom of God, which is defintely comin to take over the world :o)

[jabcat]

"Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

:thumbsup:


"A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled."

I don't believe who's in and who's out should be our focus, other than "have you trusted Jesus as your Savior?"   Don't get me wrong.  I'm a terrible witness, probably the least in this discussion.    At the same time, I believe I need to have an accurate view of what it means to know Jesus and truly be in Him, else I may say "you're already saved, you just need to realize it" - when I could have shared the word of reconciliation - "believe on Him as Savior, call on Him".

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[micah7:9]

 :iagree:

[gregoryfl]

Just know that when I started this thread, I am not seeking to go back and forth about this, since as long as we are approaching scripture with the foundation of differing mindsets, that will always bring us to differing conclusions. I simply wanted to share, for anyone desiring to read perhaps an understanding they might not have been familiar with, that they might be willing to consider, to understand how millions in the East have understood these things.

When I consider the various things shared, such as the familiar 'if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation', and 'if anyone does not have the spirit, he is none of his', and a host of other passages, yes, it is easy to get into doctrinal dogfight one way or another, for most here would interpret these things from one foundation, while I would from another, and come to two totally different understandings. Neither view has it totally all together, although we rightly share what we truly believe to be true, knowing we are brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and hopefully truly love one another (something seemingly difficult for doctrinal minded people to express).

If the entire Eastern church and Western church could not come to agreement on this, I know for sure that my little postings are not going to change anyone's mind. But, if even one person at least comes away saying that they can understand why the Eastern church sees a bigger picture, which includes the western understanding in some respects, just not using it as their foundation, then maybe this can help with other parodoxes that people get so hung up on, like free will vs. sovereignty, yeshua being god and man, etc.

As G. K. Chesterton put it: "Paradox is truth standing on its head to attract attention!"

I know that there are things here that are taboo to discuss, such as free will. As I do not know of anyone else sharing the understanding of the churches in the East, and since there are some hot topics in it, this being one of them, if this is something considered as too controversial then let me know and I will cease from it. Even though they do not doctrinally hold to a universalism which has everyone coming to faith in Christ (which I disagree with), I believe they have much to offer as regards what we here on this board hold to, although at first there naturally will be much friction over ways of understanding.

If it is permissible, then I will continue to share, not in a pushy way, but in questions and simply putting it out there for anyone who wishes to consider it, and if desired, to ask me questions about it. I am continuing to learn (and I truly mean that, not just as a cliche) and believe we all can be open to that as well as we pool the facets of Messiah we have and see just how much bigger he is than any of our perspectives of seeing him.

Ronen

[Seth]

Hi Ronen, just so I understand, and if you already mentioned it, I apologize. By Eastern, do you mean Eastern Greek Orthodox?

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ronen, just so I understand, and if you already mentioned it, I apologize. By Eastern, do you mean Eastern Greek Orthodox?

It would include them, but not totally, as there were other churches in the east as well. A couple of what some deem to be pillars of this understanding are Gregory of Nyssa (more of a preacher) and Athanasius (more of a theologian). These were the ones who primarily shaped the understanding of the churches to the East. The Syrian orthodox church would also be a group falling under this, from which they have preserved the Aramaic Peshiyta (hate having to misspell it  :sigh:), which is the 1st century writings that I study from.

Very few where we are from (I live in the United States in Florida) know much of anything about the Fathers from the East or what they necessarily taught. Again, although they do not strictly hold to Universal Reconciliation as we here on this board would hold to, they do hold out a universal application of what Yeshua accomplished for every single human, and that they at least hold out the hope that all MAY come to faith.

[sheila]

  Matt 8;11

[gregoryfl]

"And I say to you that many shall come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, and Yitshaq, and Yaaqob in the reign of the heavens,
(Mat 8:11)

Amein Sheila. Sadly, though there be divisions now East and West, North and South, his truth is not limited to geography, nor are the people who hold to it.

[sheila]

   those divisions are nothing that the Holy spirit can't take care of.    My dear cardilogist is a Syrian....and

  immigrated here from Syria 20 something years ago..and attends the Eastern orthodox church.

     ...the Holy spirit told me..after he[my cardilogist] spoke with you,I spoke with him"  you should of

seen the look on his face! lol!  it still tickles me to this day....we both accept each other in Christ. needless

to say.

[gregoryfl]

As it should be, for we are much more than our doctrines and ways of thinking. We are the very image and likeness of our Life!  :dsunny: