Tentmaker Forum

I have a question that I would like to present and hear what you have come to understand of this:

It is concerning the oft used phrase 'in Christ'. How did, or does, one end up 'in Christ'?, as far as what scripture says.

I do not even believe 'in Christ' to be a positional thing, so will refrain from sharing, so as not to get into argumentation. I just would like to understand, for those who believe being 'in Christ' is say, to be contrasted with not being in him, what do the scriptures say about how that takes, or has taken, place.

Ronen

 :2c: Christ means anointed one
We all are, or can be anointed for certain times as the spirit moves
blessings

I have always understood it to be unification of many people into one body by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is the light, we have fellowship one with another............

"In Christ" is fellowship.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ(in fellowship), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

"Christ in" is sonship.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A son is not always in fellowship (walking in the light, in the renewed mind).  The sonship is still there, but the fellowship is missing.  When the fellowship is missing that carnal man is in charge.  When the christian is conformed to the world rather then Christ, the new creation is not seen in the christian.

Thanks for your responses guys. If I may clarify, I am not asking what it means to be 'in Christ', but, whatever it means, how do you understand that it happens, but from the scriptures. For example, I grew up believing that everyone is outside of Christ until they say 'the sinner's prayer'. Then God takes that person and places them in Christ, but until they pray, they are outside of him. This is an example from my own experience growing up, which I no longer believe in, because I was challenged one day by someone to show them one scripture which gives you a clear cut 'when this happens' you go from being out of Christ to in Christ. Of course, I could not find one, it was all based on being told what to believe.

There are many 'in Christ' passages, but as far as I can tell, every single one of them only describes a reality based on being in Christ, such as the ones ed shared, none of them actually say how this took place, or takes place. And as Seth shared, a unification into one body...again though, is there a scripture or scriptures which tell us how this takes place, because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

I hope that makes a bit more sense,

Ronen

Quote from: gregoryfl on January 14, 2014, 02:10:03 PM
because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

In Christ is in fellowship with Christ.  How do you get there?  I get their through prayer, the renewed mind, daily spiritual practice, ect.

Can we think we are in Christ and not be?  I'd say yes.  Doctrine held in the mind is not always correct.  Often we follow our chosen doctrine rather then Christ.  How do we know the difference?  If we are in fellowship, we are in constant prayer and communicating with Christ who is omnipresent always in us.  We have the teacher within.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Always listening for the teacher leads is to abiding "in him".  We are not always there, but if we are sincere we should have the witness of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. 

My checkup from the neck up is Romans 8:6.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Life and peace are things that we can feel and know internally.
1 Cor 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Believing that Christ is in you and is guiding you brings you to the place of fellowship and followship.  It is daily practice.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and mall were made to drink of one Spirit.

Thank you Ed.  I understand you to be saying then, that abiding in him is the same as being in him, which takes place through our fellowship with him, spiritually minded...something of a moment by moment experience?

Thank you Shawn. I understand you to be speaking of being in him by means of being irrigated (אשתין) of the Spirit upon being immersed in Him. I also see this connected with Pauls words in Romans 6. This would be then something akin to the experience and awakening to belief in him? (I assume you are not referring to physical water immersion).

Would that be a fair assessment?

Ronen

Quote from: gregoryfl on January 14, 2014, 02:10:03 PM
There are many 'in Christ' passages, but as far as I can tell, every single one of them only describes a reality based on being in Christ, such as the ones ed shared, none of them actually say how this took place, or takes place. And as Seth shared, a unification into one body...again though, is there a scripture or scriptures which tell us how this takes place, because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

I hope that makes a bit more sense,

Ronen

Wonderful question Ronen. I was going to leave this thread well enough alone until I read what you wrote above.

I had been searching, praying, attending more churches than I care to remember and reading everything I could lay my hands on. Oh I believed that I did my very best and I knew the Scriptures very well. I exhausted every avenue but I knew in my heart of hearts that Christ was not in me, or I in Him.

Call it what you like, but there was something missing.

For some reason, Father I am sure prompted me to look inside myself, that Jesus said, Fathers Kingdom is within, not without. I take no credit for anything I am about to say, but deeper I went within the more utter garbage I found, useless trash that was my life. I finally understood what it meant to become as little children. Over much time (many months) a new me was born.

This was the transformation Jesus and Paul spoke about. It wasn't knowledge or understanding. It isn't anything I can tell you other than David knew when he wrote Pam 23.

I feel like I could walk on water or shine in the dark and if it were not for the lack of Faith I know I would. Now I am not going to post a bunch of Scripture, because I believe you wanted an example and I swear to you mine is true.

My whole life is now a glorious adventure riding on a blanket of profound peace, joy and Love. I can see Father everywhere and the work of Jesus's hand in everything. I had spent years searching for something that was not lost. Father works on His schedule, not ours. The journey has now only just begun.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Hi Ronen, I think you mean Seth. Not sure if the last question was directed to me. But as far as being in the Bodyof Christ, I think that is what the 1 Cor 12 scripture is saying. Do you differentiate being in Christ with being in the Body of Christ?

Quote from: gregoryfl on January 14, 2014, 07:20:05 PM
..something of a moment by moment experience?


Would that be a fair assessment?

Yes, that would be my take.  In the moment.

Had not really thought of that in a while, I mean, "in Christ".  Took me back pretty far to a doctrine that I happen to agree with.  You know doctrines, you keep some, and you throw some away. :declare:

Quote from: gregoryfl on January 14, 2014, 01:07:32 AM
I have a question that I would like to present and hear what you have come to understand of this:

It is concerning the oft used phrase 'in Christ'. How did, or does, one end up 'in Christ'?,

I think it's the same as "Father and Son are one".
For me it means all involved have the same mindset on things that matter. They are not exact duplicates but their goal is the same. Just like a football team consisting of individuals is one in their aim to defeat the opponent.

Thank you Julie. As I understand it, for you it was a transformational experience, one that took place after you believed? You mentioned knowing the scripture well and going to church so I assume you were a believer before that transformation. No worries about not quoting scripture. I can still deduce the how of it from your post. :)

Ronen

Thank you Whitewings. Being one with the Father and the Son, one in purpose and goal.

Quote from: Seth on January 14, 2014, 08:04:58 PM
Hi Ronen, I think you mean Seth. Not sure if the last question was directed to me. But as far as being in the Bodyof Christ, I think that is what the 1 Cor 12 scripture is saying. Do you differentiate being in Christ with being in the Body of Christ?

Yes, Shawn is a made up concoction of a older man who needs to learn not to rely so much on faulty memory.  :laughing7:

Hmm...I will have to really think on your question. I differentiate between the two in the sense of:

1. in Christ expressing the means on his end.
2. in the body expressing the means on our end.

Ronen

Interesting discussion, and in terms of "one in purpose" here is some food for thought:

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesva so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

" I grew up believing that everyone is outside of Christ until they say 'the sinner's prayer'. Then God takes that person and places them in Christ, but until they pray, they are outside of him. This is an example from my own experience growing up, which I no longer believe in"


I believe definitely there is scripture for being out of Christ then in Christ.  IMO, those that don't see it just interpret it differently than what the scriptures plainly say, changing the meaning.  I believe "saying the sinners prayer" can be used as a bit of a misnomer.  Saul didn't "say the sinners prayer" as may be written in the back of a hymnal, but he was given the faith to believe on Jesus and responded by receiving Him.  He said [by inference in talking to others] that by grace he HAD BEEN saved [spiritual new birth]..I believe that could be called "positional"...also "positional", is "seated with Him in heavenly places". 

Everyone posting here has read the scriptures so I won't go get the specific references -     

Paul said believe, confess, you will be saved.   Then John says when one believes on Jesus (to everyone who receives Him) to them he gave the right to become children of God.  There it is...given the faith to believe on Jesus [His sacrificial death and Life, His being the Savior] makes one a child of God...John says there's one or the other - a [spiritual] child of the devil, or a child of God..adopted as a son, grafted into the tree - and that there are ways to tell the difference (I John 3:10).   IMO, anything else is just muddying the waters and confusing people.

Titus 3:4-11,15   But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned...greet those who love us in the faith.

When I was a younger I was brought up on the belief that "once saved always saved" meaning once you believe, you are IN the club, and no matter what happens you will "get to Heaven."

The whole thing was about getting into Heaven. What I believe now is that there is a distinguishing factor between "believers" and what Christ called "the very elect." Believers can be deceived, but the VERY elect cannot. They could only be deceived if it were possible, but God is clear in Romans 8, that it is a matter of predestination.

Believers can come to be in Christ, but if they do not produce fruit, they will be cut off. All branches in him producing no fruit will be cut off, and wither as branches fit for burning. I used to believe that meant....HELL!

No longer. I understand it now in the sense that Paul recommended a believer who was having an affair with his father's wife  be cast out of the church for destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. I now understand the "burning" as the destructive power of sin as with the Prodigal Son, a resisting of the proud by turning them over to be eaten up by their own unrighteousness.

This is why I believe we must all be watchful. We must seek not simply to be in Christ, but to remain in him.

Quote from: gregoryfl on January 14, 2014, 08:42:13 PM
Thank you Julie. As I understand it, for you it was a transformational experience, one that took place after you believed? You mentioned knowing the scripture well and going to church so I assume you were a believer before that transformation. No worries about not quoting scripture. I can still deduce the how of it from your post. :)

Ronen

This is the crazy thing about it all Ronen. I believed and had great faith in the God that I knew was out there but had positively no way of proving it. I didn't even have a mentor to say: "Julie, what you believe is true....have faith and trust that Father will reveal all in time." So few words would have made  such a difference. There is always a lot of talk about TESTING SPIRITS, I almost have to laugh. I wonder if there has ever been a person who tested Father nearly as much as I, while He was testing me.  :doh:

The transformation was pretty rocky, but miraculous at the same time. It was a pretty tragic time in my life, and I could lose focus pretty easily. I heard Father (might have been Jesus or an angel, but I understood it to be Father) say three simple words: "Don't Forget Love."  I was in Church of all places and those three words shook me to my core. I meditated, prayed and wrote what those words meant, but finally it dawned on me, that Father was simply saying: "Don't Forget Me!" He was of course saying: "Don't Forget Me, EVER!!!!!" and I knew it. Now I have my most Trusted Confidant and Mentor with me always and I am not alone (a miracle in and of itself)

So what came first? Well certainly not the transformation. Father certainly had gifted me with Faith enough to reject what I was being taught. It always tore me up why other kids "got" it and I didn't. I do believe that in my case, Father had gifted the faith before I knew what to believe. I "wanted" to believe what everyone else believed about Hell and eternal torture but just couldn't, not because it was too horrible (it is) it was just a square peg in a round hole.

Babbling again, so I had better stop.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/2013/inchrist.php

Found this today and thought of your thread.

.

Quote from: ed on January 15, 2014, 03:21:53 PM
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/2013/inchrist.php

Found this today and thought of your thread.

.

Yes Ed, this relates to my question very much. Thanks. I also found this youtube video which discusses the also/and aspect of this teaching, instead of the usual either/or view most hold to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxT1xeS6dvM&list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&index=22 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxT1xeS6dvM&list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&index=22)

One of the things John shares in his video is that the idea which makes separation the starting point, and 'In Christ' something only for believers, stems from the West, in particular, Augustine. The text from which he built his understanding was:

32 And all the nations will be gathered before him. And he will separate them one from another as a shepherd who separates the sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:32 MGI)

Separation is his starting point.

The idea which makes the inclusion of everyone the starting point, and 'In Christ' something true for all, but only experienced by believers, stems from the East, in particular, Athanasius. The text from which he built his understanding was:

14 For the love of Christ compels us to determine this, that one died on behalf of everyone, so then everyone is dead in him. (2Co 5:14 MGI)

What Christ accomplished for all in him is his starting point.

Each of course have their verses to prove their point, but, having been on both sides for years, I know from experience that my view from my earlier years was much more limited and narrow sighted than it is now.

It is one thing for all to be 'in the club' so to speak, but quite another for each individual to actually go to the club and partake in what it has to offer.

Ronen

Hi Ronen ,
Loved the answers  and wanted to add some of my thoughts because I do believe'' in Christ ''   in these ways I will attempt to explain
'' In Christ ''to me means  being ''Gathered into His Body /true church ''   Paul touches on this many times in many places   the assembling of His Body

and no longer scattered abroad .........tossed about by every wind of doctrine , being taught of Him and  in a safe place His protection as a husband & wife are called   One flesh ....
   2 thess 2  Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But we beg of you, my brethren, concerning the arrival of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah and concerning our assembling unto him
I am a'' now '' over    a waiting for   kind of  thinker 
  we are dead to God till Christ gives us His Life /breath
  all live to Him ...37"But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. 38"Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

  our only hope of glory is in Christ whom is ALIVE 
I dont think I answered your  train of thought very well
  but felt  to speak up just the same

Thank you Rose,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people are being gathered into his body, the church, and that they are in Christ at that point. Those who do not believe I think you would be saying are not in Christ yet, and that they are dead to God until he gives them life.

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 20, 2014, 09:14:55 PM
Thank you Rose,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people are being gathered into his body, the church, and that they are in Christ at that point. Those who do not believe I think you would be saying are not in Christ yet, and that they are dead to God until he gives them life.

Very well said Ronen  , Better than I could  :thumbsup:
  They are alive because of Jesus Christ is what I also meant to say ,  Because the Father and & Son are One ,
but that was another  thread ...
Gods  Blessings

In the East, we would understand that positional aspect of 'in him' as taking place by grace through his faith, whereby we experience the greater reality of our having been 'in him', in the same way all creation has always been in him, and he in all creation, from the very beginning.

God stands all things in the דבר, his very expression of thought, which is an idomatic way of saying that there is nothing that can exist outside of God, specifically, outside of his word, דבר. This inclusion of all without distinction must not be exclusive of the other truth, which has to do with our response of faith, for if we only hold to the greater reality, then we feel no impetus to share this message with others.

It may be likened to this concept.

Even though, according to Paul, every single human being from Adam onward has been included in the death of Yeshua, and reconciled to God by God himself working this out in Messhiah, yet that greater reality is connected to the reality of this realm, where man by and large does not live as reconciled to God, but as his enemy, in their own minds, and so the impetus for us as believers is to beg others to 'be reconciled to God'! This is not an either/or, it is both/and. All have been reconciled from God's point of view, but from man's, he needs to be reconciled by believing that he has been.

It is the same with anything having to do with 'in him'. These I do not believe to be positional statements so much as they are source statements, when attached to a resulting action. 'In him' would therefore be understood as 'By means of him'....

Then, with regard to those other statements which clearly have to do with position, or location, the overarching reality from God's view is that all, without exception, are 'in Messiah', which is coupled by the human reality that they need to believe this, as God is pleased with each one to reveal his Son IN THEM, not TO THEM, just as he did with Paul.

Messiah was in Paul before he believed, which is why Yeshua said that, when Paul was persecuting believers, he was not only persecuting Messiah, but he was also kicking against the goads, hurting himself in the process, because Messiah was in him during that time, just not revealed IN HIM yet.

Ronen

  Dear Ronen ,
  Thank you for the  above  post !
  Is this more of how you see it now ?
  Being   the east or west , I do believe its   being'' in the Spirit  '' that  changes us all , and yes , we are persuaded !!

  I thought of the main reason,  at the time it come alive, His Word, to know that One God created all things though Jesus Christ and  for Him that Life itself would exist   :HeartThrob:  a simple but huge  understanding 

  1Corinth 8  4So, what about eating meat that has been offered to idols?

Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God

. 5There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords
.
6But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

"For He is very near to us, for we are all His children, for in Him we live and move and have our being." Paul at Mars Hill, Acts 17

Yes  :dsunny:

  Yes, an excellent  passage !! :thumbsup:

Obviously a wonderful passage (they all are :).  However, as John also indicated elsewhere a few days ago in another thread, I also believe it's one that has a TON of context around it to consider, to put it in proper perspective rather than just totally "stand on its own";  things like 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith (all His free gift through what He did on the cross), receiving Him in faith, etc., etc.

To me, "all his children" means He is God of all, Creator, in control, has the final say, has laid claim to all (satan will win none), all have a spirit which brings natural life that came from Him, breathed life into the nostrils of all (it's all His air), etc...IMO, most of His creation (His natural children) still must be drawn and given faith to believe on Him as Savior (be saved), and the few are called and chosen now (only through grace and HIS decision)...for every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Also that's "our job", telling others (and showing through our relationship with Him and out of love) that He IS the Savior of he world, the perfect Sacrifice, through Him we may be saved - to call on Him and "be ye reconciled to God" as Paul said (the "ministry of reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:18). 

God is good.

"therefor if anyone is IN Christ Jesus he is a new creation..."  2 Cor. 5:17

Quote from: jabcat on July 21, 2014, 07:12:45 PM
Obviously a wonderful passage (they all are :).  However, as John also indicated elsewhere a few days ago in another thread, I also believe it's one that has a TON of context around it to consider, to put it in proper perspective rather than just totally "stand on its own";  things like 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith (all His free gift through what He did on the cross), receiving Him in faith, etc., etc.

To me, "all his children" means He is God of all, Creator, in control, has the final say, has laid claim to all (satan will win none), all have a spirit which brings natural life that came from Him, breathed life into the nostrils of all (it's all His air), etc...IMO, most of His creation (His natural children) still must be drawn and given faith to believe on Him as Savior (be saved), and the few are called and chosen now (only through grace and HIS decision)...for every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Also that's "our job", telling others (and showing through our relationship with Him and out of love) that He IS the Savior of he world, the perfect Sacrifice, through Him we may be saved - to call on Him and "be ye reconciled to God" as Paul said (the "ministry of reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:18). 

God is good.

Thank you for sharing that important point Rose, it is truly 'in the spirit' that any of his truth that we come to experience and understand even occurs. :)

I believe Paul was showing the all encompassing aspect of both realities when he spoke those words eaglesway. The greater reality there, which was given by God even to a pagan man of wisdom, that Paul quotes from, and then the reality of the faith response necessary to enjoy that greater reality, when he said:

And the times of this error Alaha hath made to pass away; and at the present time, he commands all men, that each individual, in every place, should repent. Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge all the earth, with righteousness, by the man whom he has designated: and he turns every man to faith in him, in that he raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:30-31)

Yes Jabcat, even though I am bringing out an aspect of what I call the greater reality, what you shared goes along with the caution I put forth, which was not to take any one of the realities to the exclusion of any other.

I am not sure any passage stands on its own, if the principle of 'from the mouth of two or three witnesses let every matter stand'. We also believe that not everyone is of the faith (2Th 3:2), and that there are those who exhibit the character of the opposer, and so can rightly be called 'children of the devil', etc.

If you don't mind Jab, I would like to talk a bit about this "many about how to be in Christ (the spiritual new birth) by grace through faith...' because this is part of why I asked this question originally.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is written that the new birth puts someone from out of Christ to in Christ. I do not see that personally, when I look at all the passage concerning the new birth, but would like to read from you what you specifically see in the new birth texts that tells you that.

IMO, If there is no out of Christ, why would there be an "in Christ"?. If anyman be in Christ, he is a new creation. The new creation, "Behold I am making all things new"...is "in Christ". The administration suitable to the fulness of times is the gathering together of all things into one in Christ. If there is no "out of Christ", then it would appear to me there would be no need to gather all things into Christ.  To me the reconciliation of all things is about that gathering process, and only that which is reconciled is gathered, in the context in which the apostles speak. That which is not reconciled(converted from adversary to new creation) is not yet "gathered into one in Christ".

As I see it, Only those who have faith in Christ, are in Christ.

I agree. This is why in John 15 Jesus says, i am the vine and you are the branches, abide in me. He warned what would happen if we did not continue to abide in him, they would be like withered branches that are cut away and thrown to the furnace, metaphorically. We must remain in the tree and if we do not....then we aren't in the tree anymore.

I also don't think Satan is in Christ either, or the demons.

Quote from: eaglesway on July 22, 2014, 05:26:32 AM
IMO, If there is no out of Christ, why would there be an "in Christ"?. If anyman be in Christ, he is a new creation. The new creation, "Behold I am making all things new"...is "in Christ". The administration suitable to the fulness of times is the gathering together of all things into one in Christ. If there is no "out of Christ", then it would appear to me there would be no need to gather all things into Christ.  To me the reconciliation of all things is about that gathering process, and only that which is reconciled is gathered, in the context in which the apostles speak. That which is not reconciled(converted from adversary to new creation) is not yet "gathered into one in Christ".

As I see it, Only those who have faith in Christ, are in Christ.

Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2014, 06:19:22 AM
I also don't think Satan is in Christ either, or the demons.

Agreed, amen.

Ronen, all this that I mentioned earlier  " 'not all are of the faith', some are 'children of the devil', there are 'haters of God', those 'without God and without hope in this world..';  'by grace through faith', 'receiving Him in faith' " is based in specific scriptures, which is part of where I get my understanding. 

Eph. 2:12   "..apart from Christ.. without God and without hope.." Paul said.  I don't believe anyone without God and apart from Christ is "in Christ".  That would be a contradiction.

Those outside the gates I see as "not in Christ", as they are invited to drink of the water of life (Christ) - an act of becoming.  Similar to John saying to those who receive Him (Jesus) He gave the right to become a child of God.  If we receive Him, then I believe prior to that we don't "have" Him (are not in Him).  I think of the scripture quoted earlier, "if any man be in Christ he is a new creation".  I earlier bolded 'in'.  Now I'll highlight IF.  "IF any man be in Christ.." .   To my understanding 'if' implies that some are not (yet). 

I think the following is pretty much what you said you earlier believed but now believe differently.  You said the fellow challenged you to give one scripture about being outside of Christ.  I'm not sure it's based on just one scripture, but a rightly dividing and Spirit revelation of many that fit together to form a "pattern" (although 'without God' does seem pretty specific').  Anyway  yes, I do believe being in Christ is positional - the free gift making each one His child, according as the Spirit draws and He gives faith to believe.  Even though you did and no longer understand it this way, and already know the scriptures, I'll present it anyway; I believe there are many specific scriptures about how to be saved, not 'already are'.   It's my understanding that it's when He gives the faith to believe on Him as Savior, the miracle of the spiritual new birth.  And that until then, we're not yet 'in Christ'.  Otherwise, what would be the point of becoming (the "opposite of" principle).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Acts 16:30,31 ...what must I do to be saved?  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thank you all for sharing your understanding.

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 22, 2014, 11:50:54 AM
Thank you all for sharing your understanding.

I thank you for bringing out your points and understanding on them Ronen,

as I have all here sharing them .

For me , many of the scriptures /witness   speak of the same things.

This may seem   strange to bring up ,but  many clues  in the WORD   show  a ''sleeping  Lord , sleep in the sense of  dying for sin/error , as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world    , we find many verses   stating the  awaking of the Lord within ones walls of salvation  , David spoke of  in the Psalms   and in SOS and Isaiah   especially .
  and find it very  common for the new testament showing that the CHRIST IN YOU  ALIVE and breathing by the SPIRIT  ,
I know that seems  odd to mention here and now  , but done a study on the word '' awake'' and ''rise '' many years ago   and its always been  a reminder    to me that  the Lord is dead to us  untill the calling upon His name and even Paul states   call on the NAME of the Lord   , and no name under heaven by which you must be saved than Jesus Christ ...
  the name Jesus Christ comes only in the New testament  but /LORD &''annointed One ''    what  explains the hidden     Lord Jesus Christ      and in the new  is where the new name appears  , the Father testifies of the  coming of His son in the old  and the  new  testifies of the Father .
Its a bit complicated    but its sure in both covenants =  testaments /witnesses   .

awake Strong's H6974 - quwts
קוּץ
Transliteration
quwts
Pronunciation
küts (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
A primitive root [identical with קוּץ (H6972) through the idea of abruptness in starting up from sleep (compare יָקַץ (H3364))]
TWOT Reference
904a,2019
Outline of Biblical Usage
to awake, wake up

(Hiphil) to awaken, arouse, show signs of waking, awake
This may or may not be what you are saying   in your  defining   being'' in Christ ''

  but to clarify  a little  I  believe its,,, Christ dead in us to Christ Alive in us  and its proof   to maybe just me  here ,of His Life doing the works  of faith   and we get to witness in and  partake with ,  in   His glory to the Father still  as all the others in times past have ,  still  creating the great cloud of witnesses and Body of Christ /Anointed One purposed in God  with  the healing and raising the dead and making all things new in Him .


trying to be clear , hope this makes some sense to you

Peter said, in his first message---"Be saved from this perverse generation". I believe he was talking about Adam(as in Adam all die).

To be "saved", as I see it, is to be delivered from death and "made alive"(so also in Christ shall all be made alive)


At the same time, Paul says all are children of God as pertains to creation(we are all His children for in Him we live and move and hav our being)


I have done many studies on verses including "Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers who sleep(carnal, lukewarm), but obviously any revelation of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is an awakening.

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ, as Seth put it, the vine, and can be "put out" or "cut off" from Christ- and then can be grafted back in again.

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

But I also think we can get to hung up looking for doctrinal lines in metaphors that often conflict somewhat because they are not always applied by the original speaker to the subject we are speaking of in the same way we see it.

For instance as I noted earlier- Paul said on Mars Hill, "For we are all His children....". He was speaking to Romans, Greeks and Jews alike, as well as philosophers from all over the civilized world.

Yet Paul says, "If anyman hav not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new."

I think Paul is not drawing lines or thinking of "doctrine" here. He is just describing the glorious state of being available to everyone who is united to Jesus through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So, that said, I look at the issue in question on two levels.

Every being is a child of God as concerns creation and I believe God loves every being He has created and is reconciling them all strictly because of that love. There is no "doctrine" or "law" that is causing a shcizophrenic YHWH(I AM) to redeem anyone- His love is given freely and He has freely given it to the entire kosmos through "the blood of His cross", by which He is reconciling all. Does this mean literal blood pouring over the universe? :o) Nope, but as Paul says, the life is in the blood- so it is "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" into which all are being gathered because of His sacrifice.

Sorry I am rambling a little but,

Paul said(of Israel the adversary of Christ), "They are beloved for the sake of the forefathers but enemies concerning the gospel."

Well what are they?  They are beloved enemies. Are they "in Christ"? As I hav said, imo, no- they have rejected Him and His free Spirit in order to continue in- what? Definitely unbelief, yet they would say they believe in YHWH and the Messiah to come- but deluded and rebellious, they are yet beloved and the owners of irrevocable promises. "So ALL ISRAEL will be saved".

Are they children of God? This is where it gets dicey imo :o). They are beloved in a distinct and irrevocable manner, but Jesus called them children of Cain( a terrible insult) and children of the devil(worse)- but He was speaking to the leadrs of the Sanhedrin mostly. My point? these mataphors are being applied on differing levels in differing circumstances and do not all tie into general doctrines but rather to specific spiritual conditions.

Was Jesus making doctrine? "Oh Jesus said the Jews were children of the devil, children of Cain"! No. He was speaking in spiritual terms that those particular Pharisees understood clearly in order to "divide asunder soul and spirit, and make manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart". He is the one who tries the reins and the hearts. It doesnt say anywhere I read that, "He is the one who makes absolute doctrinal lines and systematic theologies" LOLOL

So imo, when speaking of the spiritual reality of being united to Christ, the new birth is about leaving Adam and being grafted into Christ, but we can get to doctrine driven when concidering these things which are often defined in metaphorical terms on purpose- so that we wont build boxes for God. So that we will understand His love on many levels.

I like this verse

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled.

I say, the Lord know those who are His, and I am an ambassador for my Lord Jesus, announcing recocnciliation for all from the Kingdom of God, which is defintely comin to take over the world :o)

Quote from: eaglesway on July 22, 2014, 06:56:29 PM

"Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

:thumbsup:


"A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled."

I don't believe who's in and who's out should be our focus, other than "have you trusted Jesus as your Savior?"   Don't get me wrong.  I'm a terrible witness, probably the least in this discussion.    At the same time, I believe I need to have an accurate view of what it means to know Jesus and truly be in Him, else I may say "you're already saved, you just need to realize it" - when I could have shared the word of reconciliation - "believe on Him as Savior, call on Him".

 :iagree:

 :iagree:

Just know that when I started this thread, I am not seeking to go back and forth about this, since as long as we are approaching scripture with the foundation of differing mindsets, that will always bring us to differing conclusions. I simply wanted to share, for anyone desiring to read perhaps an understanding they might not have been familiar with, that they might be willing to consider, to understand how millions in the East have understood these things.

When I consider the various things shared, such as the familiar 'if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation', and 'if anyone does not have the spirit, he is none of his', and a host of other passages, yes, it is easy to get into doctrinal dogfight one way or another, for most here would interpret these things from one foundation, while I would from another, and come to two totally different understandings. Neither view has it totally all together, although we rightly share what we truly believe to be true, knowing we are brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and hopefully truly love one another (something seemingly difficult for doctrinal minded people to express).

If the entire Eastern church and Western church could not come to agreement on this, I know for sure that my little postings are not going to change anyone's mind. But, if even one person at least comes away saying that they can understand why the Eastern church sees a bigger picture, which includes the western understanding in some respects, just not using it as their foundation, then maybe this can help with other parodoxes that people get so hung up on, like free will vs. sovereignty, yeshua being god and man, etc.

As G. K. Chesterton put it: "Paradox is truth standing on its head to attract attention!"

I know that there are things here that are taboo to discuss, such as free will. As I do not know of anyone else sharing the understanding of the churches in the East, and since there are some hot topics in it, this being one of them, if this is something considered as too controversial then let me know and I will cease from it. Even though they do not doctrinally hold to a universalism which has everyone coming to faith in Christ (which I disagree with), I believe they have much to offer as regards what we here on this board hold to, although at first there naturally will be much friction over ways of understanding.

If it is permissible, then I will continue to share, not in a pushy way, but in questions and simply putting it out there for anyone who wishes to consider it, and if desired, to ask me questions about it. I am continuing to learn (and I truly mean that, not just as a cliche) and believe we all can be open to that as well as we pool the facets of Messiah we have and see just how much bigger he is than any of our perspectives of seeing him.

Ronen

Hi Ronen, just so I understand, and if you already mentioned it, I apologize. By Eastern, do you mean Eastern Greek Orthodox?

Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2014, 10:08:15 PM
Hi Ronen, just so I understand, and if you already mentioned it, I apologize. By Eastern, do you mean Eastern Greek Orthodox?

It would include them, but not totally, as there were other churches in the east as well. A couple of what some deem to be pillars of this understanding are Gregory of Nyssa (more of a preacher) and Athanasius (more of a theologian). These were the ones who primarily shaped the understanding of the churches to the East. The Syrian orthodox church would also be a group falling under this, from which they have preserved the Aramaic Peshiyta (hate having to misspell it  :sigh:), which is the 1st century writings that I study from.

Very few where we are from (I live in the United States in Florida) know much of anything about the Fathers from the East or what they necessarily taught. Again, although they do not strictly hold to Universal Reconciliation as we here on this board would hold to, they do hold out a universal application of what Yeshua accomplished for every single human, and that they at least hold out the hope that all MAY come to faith.

  Matt 8;11

"And I say to you that many shall come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, and Yitshaq, and Yaaqob in the reign of the heavens,
(Mat 8:11)

Amein Sheila. Sadly, though there be divisions now East and West, North and South, his truth is not limited to geography, nor are the people who hold to it.

   those divisions are nothing that the Holy spirit can't take care of.    My dear cardilogist is a Syrian....and

  immigrated here from Syria 20 something years ago..and attends the Eastern orthodox church.

     ...the Holy spirit told me..after he[my cardilogist] spoke with you,I spoke with him"  you should of

seen the look on his face! lol!  it still tickles me to this day....we both accept each other in Christ. needless

to say.

As it should be, for we are much more than our doctrines and ways of thinking. We are the very image and likeness of our Life!  :dsunny:

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 22, 2014, 09:20:57 PM
Just know that when I started this thread, I am not seeking to go back and forth about this, since as long as we are approaching scripture with the foundation of differing mindsets, that will always bring us to differing conclusions. I simply wanted to share, for anyone desiring to read perhaps an understanding they might not have been familiar with, that they might be willing to consider, to understand how millions in the East have understood these things.

When I consider the various things shared, such as the familiar 'if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation', and 'if anyone does not have the spirit, he is none of his', and a host of other passages, yes, it is easy to get into doctrinal dogfight one way or another, for most here would interpret these things from one foundation, while I would from another, and come to two totally different understandings. Neither view has it totally all together, although we rightly share what we truly believe to be true, knowing we are brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and hopefully truly love one another (something seemingly difficult for doctrinal minded people to express).

If the entire Eastern church and Western church could not come to agreement on this, I know for sure that my little postings are not going to change anyone's mind. But, if even one person at least comes away saying that they can understand why the Eastern church sees a bigger picture, which includes the western understanding in some respects, just not using it as their foundation, then maybe this can help with other parodoxes that people get so hung up on, like free will vs. sovereignty, yeshua being god and man, etc.

As G. K. Chesterton put it: "Paradox is truth standing on its head to attract attention!"

I know that there are things here that are taboo to discuss, such as free will. As I do not know of anyone else sharing the understanding of the churches in the East, and since there are some hot topics in it, this being one of them, if this is something considered as too controversial then let me know and I will cease from it. Even though they do not doctrinally hold to a universalism which has everyone coming to faith in Christ (which I disagree with), I believe they have much to offer as regards what we here on this board hold to, although at first there naturally will be much friction over ways of understanding.

If it is permissible, then I will continue to share, not in a pushy way, but in questions and simply putting it out there for anyone who wishes to consider it, and if desired, to ask me questions about it. I am continuing to learn (and I truly mean that, not just as a cliche) and believe we all can be open to that as well as we pool the facets of Messiah we have and see just how much bigger he is than any of our perspectives of seeing him.

Ronen

I am enjoying these discussions and I have not seen anything that I would want to prohibit in the discussion. Your sharing is always in a good spirit and you contribute many edifying things from your point of view.

As to free will, I am probably the most likely to stir up dissension when I share my view on that subject, so as always, as long as things can be "discussed" in fellowship and not debated in dissension, it's alrite(imo)- however for some reason it doesnt always work out that way  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: eaglesway on July 22, 2014, 06:56:29 PM
Peter said, in his first message---"Be saved from this perverse generation". I believe he was talking about Adam(as in Adam all die).

To be "saved", as I see it, is to be delivered from death and "made alive"(so also in Christ shall all be made alive)


At the same time, Paul says all are children of God as pertains to creation(we are all His children for in Him we live and move and hav our being)


I have done many studies on verses including "Arise" and "Awake". I find most of them ,contextually, addressed to believers who sleep(carnal, lukewarm), but obviously any revelation of "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is an awakening.

The issue, as I see it, is that we cannot eliminate strains of verses in the NT that show a wider perspective on the matter. In Jesus(gospels), Paul, Peter  and John's epistles there are a considerable number of verses that clearly state that unbelievers/adversaries of the gospel, apostate believers, are not in Christ, as Seth put it, the vine, and can be "put out" or "cut off" from Christ- and then can be grafted back in again.

I would have no problem with the idea of all men being in Christ but most needing to "awaken" if not for all the scriptures that cause me to draw a different conclusion.

I think sometimes in order to support UR a kind of "grace without salt" gospel evolves, nullifying the many verses that show the distinctions between the "sons of God" and the "sons of disobedience"; as well as the "twisted generation" in Adam vs the new creation "in Christ".

But I also think we can get to hung up looking for doctrinal lines in metaphors that often conflict somewhat because they are not always applied by the original speaker to the subject we are speaking of in the same way we see it.

For instance as I noted earlier- Paul said on Mars Hill, "For we are all His children....". He was speaking to Romans, Greeks and Jews alike, as well as philosophers from all over the civilized world.

Yet Paul says, "If anyman hav not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new."

I think Paul is not drawing lines or thinking of "doctrine" here. He is just describing the glorious state of being available to everyone who is united to Jesus through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So, that said, I look at the issue in question on two levels.

Every being is a child of God as concerns creation and I believe God loves every being He has created and is reconciling them all strictly because of that love. There is no "doctrine" or "law" that is causing a shcizophrenic YHWH(I AM) to redeem anyone- His love is given freely and He has freely given it to the entire kosmos through "the blood of His cross", by which He is reconciling all. Does this mean literal blood pouring over the universe? :o) Nope, but as Paul says, the life is in the blood- so it is "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" into which all are being gathered because of His sacrifice.

Sorry I am rambling a little but,

Paul said(of Israel the adversary of Christ), "They are beloved for the sake of the forefathers but enemies concerning the gospel."

Well what are they?  They are beloved enemies. Are they "in Christ"? As I hav said, imo, no- they have rejected Him and His free Spirit in order to continue in- what? Definitely unbelief, yet they would say they believe in YHWH and the Messiah to come- but deluded and rebellious, they are yet beloved and the owners of irrevocable promises. "So ALL ISRAEL will be saved".

Are they children of God? This is where it gets dicey imo :o). They are beloved in a distinct and irrevocable manner, but Jesus called them children of Cain( a terrible insult) and children of the devil(worse)- but He was speaking to the leadrs of the Sanhedrin mostly. My point? these mataphors are being applied on differing levels in differing circumstances and do not all tie into general doctrines but rather to specific spiritual conditions.

Was Jesus making doctrine? "Oh Jesus said the Jews were children of the devil, children of Cain"! No. He was speaking in spiritual terms that those particular Pharisees understood clearly in order to "divide asunder soul and spirit, and make manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart". He is the one who tries the reins and the hearts. It doesnt say anywhere I read that, "He is the one who makes absolute doctrinal lines and systematic theologies" LOLOL

So imo, when speaking of the spiritual reality of being united to Christ, the new birth is about leaving Adam and being grafted into Christ, but we can get to doctrine driven when concidering these things which are often defined in metaphorical terms on purpose- so that we wont build boxes for God. So that we will understand His love on many levels.

I like this verse

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

A lot of Christians worry more about "who is in" and "who is out" than announcing that everyone is invited and everyone will be reconciled.

I say, the Lord know those who are His, and I am an ambassador for my Lord Jesus, announcing recocnciliation for all from the Kingdom of God, which is defintely comin to take over the world :o)

  Thank you Bro John
  for  explaining this  ,sometimes I have to   whisk over  posts and come back when I have time to read and absorb  them   slowly and      think ,    Life is too busy for me these days and I    hope  it to be different one day    soon .

I love what you shared here and agree when thinking of how you explained it .. considering those   verses   along with others   you shared about not having the Spirit of Christ  they are none of His  etc ..



But I  need to explain this better what I meant  , I can never explain   all the thought process    in posts  and  that is not     helpful

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  He is not far from anyone of us   how we move and have our being   Acts 17 , you have shared before

   we are to awaken to righteousness  / justified   live by faith   which is  in Jesus Christ to save us as well   ,[come to the Light and knowledge of Him ] our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord in the time of distress  and sin sick and lost  in the  dead  sea of many peoples tongues and nations .  or in this case the Lake   of trials  and testing

  but thought of   the disciples on the boat   for this example     and   awakened  the Lord  to save them and He  told them where is your faith ?    This meant a lot to me personally     in seeing   what I am trying to explain here

Luk 8:22   ¶   Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth.
Luk 8:23       But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy.
Luk 8:24       And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luk 8:25       And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Some of  this may seem far fetched   and  silly to some
  but for me its the proof in scriptures      that helps me to see them  come alive and move in our own lives

I do believe all creation was made by and though Him as He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .
 

Quote    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

I believe that it is difficult at times to sort out the various words used to describe spiritual conditions. The scriptures talk about being dead in sin, without God and hope in the world. it also speaks of being carnal- born of God but walking as if we werent. The scriptures speak of those who not having the law lived the law from the heart and thus being a law unto themselves.

Establishing categories can be a slippery slope so as I said before, I like the scripture that says "The Lord knows those who are His" and as you said- He is near to any and all who call, for "All those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

But, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", so one one level, I may be an adversary, but on another level, God is near me and knows me inside out and loves me and is laboring to bring me to repentence.

To me, this is the love of God and sometimes I despise myself when I get too hung up in definition and doctrine and hav to jerk myself back into the consciousness that God loves everyone and is always reaching out in kindness to all, "For it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentence." So we may be lost without Christ and in the death of Adam, but yet Christ loves us, having died for us while we were yet unrighteous- so are dead to Christ and God? Maybe from our side, but they are alive toward us :o)

"The earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

The Spirit hovers in kindness over the formlessness of our carnality and speaks, "Let there be light!" and that light is the love of God in Christ who died for all and rose for all.

Grace and Peace  :o)

  Thank you John , good thoughts there !

I felt compelled   to share   some inner thoughts and questions !

  and sorry this is so far from Ronens  original post  in Christ... How ? !!

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed  , but I do know if it was not for Gods love  expressed though His  Son  , none could stand  half a chance
  Oh, the mysteries  of Gods ways  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: rosered on July 23, 2014, 05:14:14 PM

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord

He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .

:thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 23, 2014, 07:33:42 PM

Quote from: rosered on July 23, 2014, 05:14:14 PM

    What I  meant by   Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world  , He died  so we who do ask Him would have salvation  and    is as simple  as calling upon the name of the Lord   with a sincere  heart felt  plea        for anyone of us at any time   , but until that time  we are as lost and   Jesus is still dead to us as we are dead to the Father .

  our first leap of faith  is calling on the Lord

He  alone reconciles  and makes new the world back into Himself   as  perfect/complete to the Father     , what was dead is now being made alive by the Spirit of Holy     Jesus   to present it to the Father    whom are One
 
We are just witnesses to His glory and praise    Him   and do as He commands us to do .

:thumbsup:

  Thank you James !
I was thinking of how,    He was  on that cross   and stated,''Forgive  them Father for they know not what they do .   also   

in Luke 23
45because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.

46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. 47Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent.


  but has Risen into GREAT power and Glory !   my own mindset had to change  between the    two places     , the  sacrifice    for us all and the  Glory to come  after !! 

Here is another related aspect to this, in reverse, having to do with Christ in man. I am not referring to the truth of whether someone has Christ or not, but the greater reality of whether Christ is in all.

Here is one passage of scripture that most are familiar with:

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

Reading this in virtually every translation today, you would never get even a hint of thinking that this has anything to do with all being in Christ, except perhaps (as I had come to understand) the very last phrase 'the life was the light of men'.

However, I found out that the early church quoted this verse totally different than we have it today, and it makes a huge difference in understanding. Since there was no periods, commas, etc, in those days, one had to insert them where they believed they should be. Here is a comparison of the way it is commonly translated today, with how, as an example, Cyril of Alexandria rendered it.

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

All things were made by Him, and without him was not anything made. That which was made, in it was Life. And the Life was the light of men.

You can see this for yourself here: 
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n103/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n103/mode/2up)
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n111/mode/2up

Here we clearly see a difference in understanding, the modern day view speaking of life being in the Son...which, of course, is true, and yet...

What John appears to be truly saying, and was interpreted as such in early church, was that Everything that was made had this Life, the Son, in it. This is the conclusion they drew. Feel free to read Cyril's commentary on this.

This to me (who is in Christ, and who Christ is in) is not simply about doctrine. It truly affects so much of how we view each other, again, whether based on the foundation of separation, or of inclusion, neither of which does away with the importance of heeding the upward call, nor of the consequences of rejecting it as long as one does so. It does not, to me, cause me to not feel the need to share the gospel with others...on the contrary, this is the very gospel I feel compelled to share.

I am sure that what I shared about Cyril will most likely not convince anyone to read John 1:3,4 differently, but again, at least you can see that there are others, even those many years closer to our Master than we, who had a different understanding, one that spoke of cohesion and inclusion.

Ronen

There are lots of "old" theories, understandings, beliefs.  Apostle Paul was about as close to the Savior as anyone after the cross, and he had many things to say about one's need to come to Christ, to believe on Him, have faith in Him, receive Him - that not all are of the faith, etc.  Something more to consider.

Yes, and those things do not go against what I am sharing at all. Those things are all very true. Do you think that I do not believe in the need to receive Christ, or have faith in him, etc? There are definitely those who do not believe and are thus, not of the faith. This is where I think the wall will continue to be, if it is thought that everytime I refer to inclusion, that it somehow negates the human responsibility and response. Where have I done that?.

It feels like the same type of argument I get from my home fellowship (I and my family are the only ones who believe in universal reconciliation). They say that if what I believe is true, that everyone ends up with God in the end, then there is no need for Christ to have died on the cross, and no need to evangelize. They will share all those scriptures which speak of those things, as though they somehow contradict what I believe, which it most certainly does not. Does this make any sense?

When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

The reason I believe UR today is not because someone showed me a scripture with a misplaced comma and an alternate interpretation, and another scripture in which someone had a different way of translating. I believe UR because there are TONS of scriptures which explain it that I didn't even realize were in the Bible. And for the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise there were scriptural explanations that made sense to me.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2014, 10:46:13 PM
When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

That is a good point, I always thought that we obtain the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ. Likewise, there are others who say that one must actually be water baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2014, 10:58:09 PM
The reason I believe UR today is not because someone showed me a scripture with a misplaced comma and an alternate interpretation, and another scripture in which someone had a different way of translating. I believe UR because there are TONS of scriptures which explain it that I didn't even realize were in the Bible. And for the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise there were scriptural explanations that made sense to me.

And that is exactly the case here as well, with really anything I believe. The scriptures I used to see one way I now see another and they make sense to me in the total scheme of things. Not just one or two, but many.

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2014, 10:46:13 PM
When someone reacts that way to my belief, I simply explain why Christ died in more detail. People believe in Hell and limited salvation for a reason, and a good reason. I think we in UR forget that. It took me a long time to understand UR because the scriptures SEEMED to be saying things contrary to that, and it took some patience for me to understand what was happening.

For example, I brought up the Peter scripture to you a while back in which he proclaimed the Gospel in this manner: "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Your response had to do with a philosophical question of election vs choice etc. But you didn't explain how Peter's statement makes sense along with your belief. It felt like you were ignoring the scripture itself. There are other scriptures which show the reception of the Spirit by the laying on of hands, after which people began to prophecy, and how that the promise of Abraham (the Spirit) is received through faith.

What would be helpful is to carefully explain how those scriptures, which seem to contradict the idea that everyone already has the Spirit, are actually explaining the doctrine that you believe instead. If the only explanation is that Eastern teachers had a philosophy, then that doesn't go very far, at least with me.

I want to see the scriptures clearly teaching that everyone already has Christ, and then I would like to have an explanation of how they fit together with scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise. Your doctrine needs to be harmonized and without that, you will get people quoting scripture in explanation of why they disagree with you.

What I am getting now, is that everyone already has Christ...but they must also receive Christ? How does that work, and which scriptures unify the seeming contradiction?

I am willing to do that, but know that it will not be a simple exercise, for there is a lot to it, just like it is not a simple exercise to go from believing in ET to UR. What I would ask is this then, if anyone wants as full an explanation as I can give...

Let me share what I have for you to read, and instead of coming up with objections to the point, which can end up getting what I am sharing stalled and sidetracked, I would simply ask that questions be directed toward trying to understand where I am coming from, why I see a passage of scripture a certain way. This way I can stay on my flow of thought and I think it will be easier for others to follow. Perhaps also, it would be good is those who read would try to restate what I am bringing out in their own words so I know they definitely understand what I am trying to say.

Does that sound reasonable?

I have no problem with that. In fact I will be content to simply observe and make my decision based on what I see. But my criteria will be based on whether I see a clear and plain teaching from the Apostles. At the end of the day, we all have opinions on what they meant.

If no one else objects, then I will get to work on this. Although I will draw much on the Apostolic writings for this subject, I will also be drawing on the scriptural foundation they had in their day, the Tanach, because parts of it are essential to understanding this from the whole counsel of God.

Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2014, 02:57:57 AM
Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

Amen, that is the best way to put it

Amen and Amen!

As your minds are settled on the matter, then I will respectfully decline sharing anymore on the matter. I am not here to ruffle feathers or worse yet, make enemies. You are all my brothers and sisters in our common faith and Master, and that relationship means much more to me than trying to prove a point, especially on a matter that I believe does not affect one's salvation. I am not very familiar with mr. Pearson, although if he is saying there is no sin in the world, then I would have to say he is miles apart from what I understand this teaching to be about.

Ronen

What is Carlton Pearson's "Doctrine of Inclusion?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Carlton_Pearson-Doctrine_of_Inclusion.html

May want to update this article.  I found it with google.

Quote
There are those who believe that Love NEVER fails -- there are some who believe it fails for most of mankind. (1 Cor. 13:8) There are those who believe nothing is impossible with God, while some believe that man's will is greater than God's will to save all mankind. (Luke 1:37) There are those who have great faith in God's promises that all the families and nations of the earth shall be blessed and there are those who don't. (Gen. 12:3; 12:18) Carlton prefers to believe Jesus over the Dark Age traditions perpetuated by those with little faith. Carlton takes Jesus at His word when He said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself." (John 12:32) There are some Christians like Carlton who rejoice when they read Scriptures like the following one and there are those who want to twist it and diminish Christ's glory, honor and power, "And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:8-11) (We know that no one can say this except with the Holy Spirit.) Unless one has the faith of a little child, one cannot see the kingdom of God and all its glory. Some have faith to see the finished work of the cross for all mankind, some don't...yet...but eventually everyone will...and that includes you, dear reader. That's what Carlton Pearson's "Doctrine of Inclusion" is all about - it's inclusiveness - it includes everyone! "Oh, you of little faith. Why do you doubt" the power and love of the Savior of the world and His Awesome Father!?
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Carlton_Pearson-Doctrine_of_Inclusion.html

Very interesting thread - In Christ - How?
Started back in January by Ronen and I wonder if there really is any easy answer.
Wouldn't it be something if those who are in Christ and have the HS could be somethnig visible (like a halo  :eek:)
Fruits of the spirit are really the most important attribute of a Christian, and even then there are many who do good wqorks that are not part of the body of Christ

I beleive this will continue to be an emigmatic question. Maybe am not directly addressing Ronens original point about the HOW. Sorry about that  :doh:

Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh_10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

No ruffles brother :o) And you are right, sometimes it is better to leave issues where we are settled in different positions alone once they have been fully discussed, but in no way would we become enemies over a discussion such as this one.  :HeartThrob:

I agree, I wouldn't see you as an enemy over a discussion like this.  :friendstu:

I will share one more point which I think everyone can agree on, even though there be differences of understanding in our earthly experience.

Solomon spoke of, not only the heaven we see above, but also the heaven of heavens, not being able to contain God, which the ancients understood to mean that all creation is in God, like a womb inside a mother:

But will God in very deed dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens can't contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
(1Ki 8:27)

Now from man's experience, they could argue with Solomon saying, "Of course he dwells on the earth...he is dwelling in the most holy place is he not?" And they would be correct, but that does not mean Solomon was not correct. They both would be, it is all a matter of perspective. One doesn't discount the other.

Speaking of the Word, before becoming flesh, John wrote that everything that is created was created in the Word:

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed. That which existed in him was life and the life was the light of men.
(Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

And then, to me, the most powerful expression of this truth is Paul's witness, that everything that was built, including thrones, lordships, rulers, and authorities, which we in the East understand to mean evil powers of darkness, was built in him, and that they stand in him. Apart from him nothing can exist, or stand:

And in him everything that is in heaven and on earth was built, all that is seen and all that is not seen, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities, everything [is] by way of him and was built in him. And he is in front of all and everything stands in him.
(Col 1:16-17 MGI)

Those espousing dualistic Greek thinking will probably not like this, but it is what the earliest believers understood, and is why I share it as an alternative starting point, the one Athanasius held to, instead of the more common understanding today built out of a framework starting from separation, as Augustine held to.

This that I have shared is not in opposition to one's responsibility to confess Yeshua, to turn to God, to live as one connected to the Head, who is Messiah, nor of the need to be saved.

If people are in a room full of light and their eyes are closed, they will be fumbling as those who are lost in the dark. This does not negate both truths, that they are in the room, and in the light (God's reality), yet at the same time, they are walking in darkness (man's reality). They do not need to have someone lead them to the room to enter it (they are already inside it). What they need is for someone like Paul to 'open their eyes, so that they will turn from darkness to the light and from the authority of Satan to God and they will receive forgiveness of sins and a portion with the holy [ones] by faith that [is] in me.' (Act 26:18 MGI)

They are like the Greeks he spoke to, who were blindly groping about trying to find the God they were inside the whole time! This is why there is so much emphasis on opening the eyes, having the eyes of the heart enlightened, etc, not for the purpose of entering into Messiah, but to realize where they are and grow in their experience of that truth.

I understand what you are getting at and I am glad that we agree on faith in Christ and salvation etc. I just want to share how I see this scripture:

John 7:37-39
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

It's not that the Holy Spirit has been given but not everyone realizes it within themselves. "The Holy Ghost was not yet given" in the first place. You cannot awake to something within you which has not even been given yet.  Even the prophets had the Spirit in them, but not this manifestation. Christ THROUGH the Spirit unto "living waters that flow outwardly" had not been given yet at the moment, and it is only given to the believers.

Jesus had to be glorified first, because he would come to his disciples at Pentacost in a manner not yet seen and this gift would only be given to the believer. Of course, this gets into a whole trinity debate I don't want to get into.

But even we agree basically, I cannot say that the Holy Spirit had already been given, when John says, "it had not yet been given."

Quote from: Seth on July 31, 2014, 02:46:45 AMEven the prophets had the Spirit in them, but not this manifestation. Christ THROUGH the Spirit unto "living waters that flow outwardly" had not been given yet at the moment, and it is only given to the believers.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is a big difference in my understanding between Messiah being in us, and us being in Messiah, and us 'having Messiah'. John wrote of those who have Messiah and those who do not, when he wrote:

Everyone who holds fast to the Son also holds fast to life. And everyone who does not hold fast to the Son of God does not have life to him. (1Jo 5:12 MGI)

Here, holding fast to the Son is what you in the West would understand to mean 'having' or 'possessing the Son'.

QuoteBut even we agree basically, I cannot say that the Holy Spirit had already been given, when John says, "it had not yet been given."

Very true. The Spirit was not given. In fact, Yeshua, after his resurrection, breathed on them saying, "Receive the Rukha d'Qdshah!
(Joh 20:22)

These I believe to be manifestations, that which we as humans could relate to, things pertaining to our experience. Thus, the Spirit did not fill them until Shavuot, when they were in the upper room.

As related to the greater reality though, what I see is that they did have the Spirit indwelling them, which Yeshua said was the case before the Spirit was breathed on them and given later:

And I will ask of my Father and he will give you another Deliverer, who will be with you forever, the Spirit of truth that the world is not able to receive, because it has not seen him and does not know him. But you know him, because he lives with you and he is in you.
(Joh 14:16-17 MGI)

I am aware of the difference between the Aramaic and the Greek here, for the Greek reads:

the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you."
(Joh 14:17)

As everyone here probably knows by now, the 1st century writings I primarily hold to are those of the Aramaic, (which is a whole different debate which I also would prefer not getting into) so I naturally lean toward the Aramaic's reading, and see it as harmonious with everything else, although others no doubt would disagree. I can understand that, and am fine with it. Again, this is all just sharing of another perspective to consider.

Joh 4:24  God is Spirit......always been there, the workings certainly are different. :dsunny:

I agree that the early writings were most likely in Aramaic, and believe those writings would carry the Hebrew mind-set more clearly than the later Greek translations/interpretaions/transliterations.

Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2014, 08:32:05 AM
I agree that the early writings were most likely in Aramaic, and believe those writings would carry the Hebrew mind-set more clearly than the later Greek translations/interpretaions/transliterations.

I agree, and to that point, I have been in discussion on an Aramaic message board concerning the translation of John 1:3,4. I know from years of experience how easy it is to read something and not truly see what it is saying, because of preconceived ideas. It is amazing how much such things have an effect on hiding what is in plain view. I believe that the rendering of John 1:3 and 4 fits that description, simply because we have been trained and taught to read it the way we see it in the translations we have today.

I know I quoted one early believer who rendered it differently, but over the centuries he is not the only one to do so. Here are some others I have found, which at least adds some weight to it's validity. It caused me to go back to my Aramaic text (and also the Greek) and can now see (for myself) that the ancient way they understood those verses is actually the accurate one. Here is what I posted on the other message board concerning this, which demonstrates to me that there was understood the greater reality of everything that exists doing so in Him, since in Him all things consist.

While I know of no modern translation that has this rendering, I do have several from the church fathers. Here are some more quotes of verse 3, all of which end the sentence differently than is done in today's translations:

"Understand now for me the mystery of the truth, granting pardon if I shrink from advancing further in the treatment of it, by announcing this alone: 'All things were made by Him, and without Him was not even one thing.'" (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6.11)
"But it is said Providence, from above, from what is of prime importance, as from the head, reaches to all, 'as the ointment,' it is said, 'which descends to Aaron's beard, and to the skirt of his garment'(that is, of the great High Priest, 'by whom all things were made, and without whom not even one thing was made' not to the ornament of the body; for Philosophy is outside of the People, like raiment." (Stromata 6.17)

" 'And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.' Immediately there appears the Word, 'that true light, which lighteth man on his coming into the world,' and through Him also came light upon the world. From that moment God willed creation to be effected in the Word, Christ being present and ministering unto Him: and so God created. And God said, 'Let there be a firmament . . . and God made the firmament;' and God also said, 'Let there be lights (in the firmament); and so God made a greater and a lesser light.' But all the rest of the created things did He in like manner make, who made the former ones—I mean the Word of God, 'through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.' Now if He too is God, according to John, (who says,) 'The Word was God,' then you have two Beings—One that commands that the thing be made, and the Other that executes the order and creates." (Tertullian, Adversus Praxean 12).

"Let him who is inclined to entertain this suspicion hear the undoubted declaration of Scripture pronouncing, 'In wisdom hast Thou made them all,' and the teaching of the Gospel, that 'by Him were all things made, and without Him nothing was made;'" (Origen, De Principiis I.2)

And here are a couple quotes of verse 4, which is in agreement with the ancient rendering:

"John also, who lived after him, said, 'That which was in the Logos was life, and the life was the light of men;'" (Contra Celsum 6.5)

'This is what John suggested when he said about the Word: "That which was made was life in Him." Life then came in the Word.' (Origen, Commentary On John; 22)

More convincing to me though, is the literal rendering of the words of the Aramaic (which to me is easier to see, although the same can be done in Greek as well). If John wanted to communicate that 'without Him nothing existed [of] what was made', then he would have prefixed the word for 'what' (medem) with a dalet. Since he did not, then the sentence reads more naturally (no need to insert the word 'of') to be ended as it was anciently, after the word medem.

Acts 4:34 gives an example of medem with the dalet prefix rightly being translated as 'of what'.

Ronen

Had to read that through a couple times. We(all believers) need these insights. Translators have been so cavalier in handling the Word, and the Hebrew mindset from which it sprang has been largely ignored.

"What advantage was there to be Jewish? Many. For one thing they were entrusted with oracles of God."

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 23, 2014, 08:44:27 PM
Here is another related aspect to this, in reverse, having to do with Christ in man. I am not referring to the truth of whether someone has Christ or not, but the greater reality of whether Christ is in all.

Here is one passage of scripture that most are familiar with:

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

Reading this in virtually every translation today, you would never get even a hint of thinking that this has anything to do with all being in Christ, except perhaps (as I had come to understand) the very last phrase 'the life was the light of men'.

However, I found out that the early church quoted this verse totally different than we have it today, and it makes a huge difference in understanding. Since there was no periods, commas, etc, in those days, one had to insert them where they believed they should be. Here is a comparison of the way it is commonly translated today, with how, as an example, Cyril of Alexandria rendered it.

Everything existed by his hand and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed. In him was life and the life was the light of men. (Joh 1:3-4 MGI)

All things were made by Him, and without him was not anything made. That which was made, in it was Life. And the Life was the light of men.

You can see this for yourself here: 
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n103/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n103/mode/2up)
https://archive.org/stream/CyrilOfAlexandriaCommentaryOnJohnVolume1Tr.P.E.Pusey1874/cyril#page/n111/mode/2up

Here we clearly see a difference in understanding, the modern day view speaking of life being in the Son...which, of course, is true, and yet...

What John appears to be truly saying, and was interpreted as such in early church, was that Everything that was made had this Life, the Son, in it. This is the conclusion they drew. Feel free to read Cyril's commentary on this.

This to me (who is in Christ, and who Christ is in) is not simply about doctrine. It truly affects so much of how we view each other, again, whether based on the foundation of separation, or of inclusion, neither of which does away with the importance of heeding the upward call, nor of the consequences of rejecting it as long as one does so. It does not, to me, cause me to not feel the need to share the gospel with others...on the contrary, this is the very gospel I feel compelled to share.

I am sure that what I shared about Cyril will most likely not convince anyone to read John 1:3,4 differently, but again, at least you can see that there are others, even those many years closer to our Master than we, who had a different understanding, one that spoke of cohesion and inclusion.

Ronen

  I dont know how I missed this     ,
I believe  that  , Jesus said in the least/smallest one  you have done unto one of these you have done it unto ME .

   Seems the Light of men   Being the Anointing of God   ''Christ ''  in them   

  I can see also    how one would       be  killing  crucifying  Jesus  Christ    in them   as well as others   doing the same   

So Sorry to back peddle         as you others are further along

QuoteHad to read that through a couple times. We(all believers) need these insights. Translators have been so cavalier in handling the Word, and the Hebrew mindset from which it sprang has been largely ignored.

"What advantage was there to be Jewish? Many. For one thing they were entrusted with oracles of God."

  I so agree John with this  statement you have made !

How do we handle   the'' WORD OF LIFE ''

this was very interesting to read! I can see how the aramaic would be more accurate, as that is what the nation was using at the time..

"In the beginning.. God.." the allness of all.. "In Him we live and move and have our being.."

.."the firstborn/firstbegotten of all creation" (gathering all things in heaven and earth in Jesus)
strong's greek #4416 "firstbegotten", from #4413 "protos" ( :smile: prototype) formost, best, chief, beginning, first of all, former
- also from #5088 to produce from seed, birth, deliver

"..even as some of your own poets have said.." greek poets, "in Him we live and move and have our being.."

..in the beginning.. there was God.. only God.. there is still only God.. [so why is life like it is? many ask] it would seem, He created rational creatures. With thinking ability comes the ability to choose - tho of course highly limited! ..He is letting, it would seem, these other choices (besides His/God's) to run their course..

Surely 'in the beginning' before He ever created, he could see all possibilities before His sight stretched out like a blanket.. and surely He has chosen all things just as He has in order to bring about the (very) best of all possibilities..

seeing something, to me, seems a bit like a circle. It has 360 degrees.. our focus on any given thing / truth, can be on any of those 360 degrees, but only one degree is the 100% accurate? :laughing7: just thinking out loud.. so "accurate" is good..

as thornbushes in the hands of a drunk,is a proverb[word of wisdom] in the mouth of a fool.  but if ever that wicked servant

say 'my master is delaying and become drunk and begin beating those in the household.......

    surely the wisdom of the wise were consumed at the cross[crown of thorns]

    ...for the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom