"Go and Sin..."?

[jabcat]

Paul struggled with his flesh, saying he did what he didn't want to do.  Yet he also said that it was no longer him that did it, but the sin that dwelt in him.  Either John or James said if one knows God they no longer sin.

All that said (which is enough "theology" to explore and interpret for a long time), I still personally believe we all miss the mark, one way or another.  It's true many in the family of God are still very wounded, struggle with "the sin that so easily besets us", have battles with the flesh.  I don't believe any of us have obtained perfection.  We grow, mature, become more like Him through our trials and tribulations - but still, while breathing have not put on immortality.  The only righteousness we have is if we have put on His righteousness, through His grace and Free Gift.

Some talk about either loving the sinner and hating the sin, while others talk about "accepting everyone just as they are".  Some ministries (and others, just walking out daily life) believe in just accepting wherever a person is, going ahead and worshipping together, just treating that person as a brother - whether they believe on Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, or nothing.  (A large percentage of the Unitarian Universalist "Church" is either agnostic, atheist, or other non-Christian believer.  And that's OK, accepted, no big "problem".)

I believe this is a tricky business.  It's true, Jesus met people right where they were.  He spent time with them, loved them.  But how do you think He viewed their sin?  Did He interact with them, while just leaving them the same as before?  Did He say let's just all fellowship together, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, let's praise God together?  Or while loving and spending time with them, did He expect (and bring about) something else in their life?  Paul turned the one over to satan who insisted on remaining in his repeated, apparently unrepentant (confessed/acknowledged) sin.

As believers, all wanting to follow Christ, as well as Paul's example (he gave so much instruction to us, the ecclesia of the nations in the matter of Christ-like living), what do you believe our approach should be?  "Don't worry about it, I'm OK you're OK", or "..........

[lomarah]

I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free.  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I believe this is a tricky business.  It's true, Jesus met people right where they were.  He spent time with them, loved them.  But how do you think He viewed their sin?  Did He interact with them, while just leaving them the same as before?  Did He say let's just all fellowship together, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, let's praise God together?  Or while loving and spending time with them, did He expect (and bring about) something else in their life?

We have a saying that roughly translates to "You get infected with what you hang out with". I think the similar english expression is "It rubs of on you" ???
Useally it has a negative meaning but I think it can be positive to if the good person (Jesus) has a strong personality a charisma.

As believers, all wanting to follow Christ, as well as Paul's example (he gave so much instruction to us, the ecclesia of the nations in the matter of Christ-like living), what do you believe our approach should be?  "Don't worry about it, I'm OK you're OK", or "..........

I'm not really the person to answer this particular question but from my own experience wth all sorts of other topics the answer is "Depents on who you talk with."
When explaining/teaching something it's always most effective to tune your story to their thought world not the other way around.
Depending on the subject you could ask guiding questions. Most theories have large hole in them you can exploit. Just get the person tangles in his/her own conflicting thoughts and your job is (half) done. (without mentioning a religious word)

[jabcat]

I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free.  :HeartThrob:

I'm in much agreement with the above, if  they're brothers and sisters.  This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters.  If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord.  **I still believe we should love them and care about them.  But among many other things indicating such, Paul said "not all are of the faith".

What if they're actively Buddhist or Muslim and want to enter your small fellowship and worship "god as they understand him"?  What if you know their lifestyle is beating their wife and having all the affairs they want because (even it's a twisted version) their religion says it's OK?

[jabcat]

[ "It rubs of on you" ???

There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes.  After awhile what do you think happened to him?

Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference?  It seems there's some kind of "limits"?

Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?  2 Corinthians 6:14

[WhiteWings]

[ "It rubs of on you" ???

There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes.  After awhile what do you think happened to him?

That's why I wrote you need a strong personality. Otherwise the teacher gets taught. Could "you" turning to drugs or converting back to an ET. I don't have many limits but I'm 100% sure I never will cross them. Drugs I'll never touch. Not even a spliff. My only drug is alcohol. Few glasses and my locomotion (sp?) gets messed up but somehow my head stays quite clear and I
never do things I wouldn't have done when sober. So personally I wouldn't worry at all getting messed up like teh people I'm trying to help. Not that you will ever see me trying to help drugs and alcohol addicts. They are like little children. While others instantly make contact with babies and little children I usually avoid them because I have no clue how to interact with them. In fact many start to cry :mshock:
So while I seem to have a good shield against nasty things I simply wouldn't able to help such people.

I think the answer to you question is that you should take a really critical look at your personality and see if it doesn't get in the way of your goals. If yes do nothing or at least stay away from certain groups. So if you have/had a drinking problem avoid such people at all costs. That shouldn't be a problem because there are many other people that you could help.

Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference?  It seems there's some kind of "limits"?

Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?  2 Corinthians 6:14

we need to discuss that verse because it's "wrong" Jesus was totally unevenly yoked I think. Yet it was His mission to be so....

While I don't deny the spiritual aspects of Jesus' I also remember the "you gave me to drink, eat, etc etc" verses.
Meaning doing good non religious work is also work of/for Jesus?

[WhiteWings]

I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free.  :HeartThrob:

I'm in much agreement with the above, if  they're brothers and sisters.  This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters.  If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord.

James, are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination, level of knowing God etc?

[Molly]

we need to discuss that verse because it's "wrong" Jesus was totally unevenly yoked I think. Yet it was His mission to be so....

I think the key to that verse is this verse:


For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Heb 2:11]

We are not pulling him down, he is lifting us up.

So I guess the bottom line is--if you are able to lift others up, by all means do it.  Just don't let them pull you down.   When you are yoked with someone, you become one with them.  Paul is giving us a warning.

[WhiteWings]

We are not pulling him down, he is lifting us up.

Exactly. Same should be true for any student relationship. So as an answer to James'question I think fellowship shouldn't be limited by sins. Estimating potential effectiveness is better I think.

[WhiteWings]

Some talk about either loving the sinner and hating the sin, while others talk about "accepting everyone just as they are".  Some ministries (and others, just walking out daily life) believe in just accepting wherever a person is, going ahead and worshipping together, just treating that person as a brother - whether they believe on Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, or nothing.  (A large percentage of the Unitarian Universalist "Church" is either agnostic, atheist, or other non-Christian believer.  And that's OK, accepted, no big "problem".)

Is worshipping together really worshipping together if everybody worships something different?
OTOH isn't peace one of Jesus' messages. What's more Christ like? Hanging out with a muslim or declaring war on them? On top of that, hanging out with a muslim has a lot larger chance of him listening to your "jesus sermon" then when being enemies.
Fights never have converted people.

[jabcat]

I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free.  :HeartThrob:

I'm in much agreement with the above, if  they're brothers and sisters.  This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters.  If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord.

James, are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination, level of knowing God etc?

My view;  if they profess Jesus as their Savior, IMO and as far as I'm concerned, they're "in the family" - born from above, God is their Father.  That's the criteria - from all walks of life, all races, denominations, etc.   Others may be my friend, I may interact with them, enjoy their company from time to time, and I'm called to love them, treat them with respect, and share Jesus with them - either by word, deed, or both.   Reminds me of the saying;  "your life is the only Bible some people will ever read".

[WhiteWings]

That wasn't my question  :hammerhead:
Who are the sheep of Jesus? Those who did profess His name? Only the elect? Only the Jews? Everybody living in Israel including the Romans?

[Molly]

That wasn't my question  :hammerhead:
Who are the sheep of Jesus? Those who did profess His name? Only the elect? Only the Jews? Everybody living in Israel including the Romans?

He told his disciples to preach the gospel to the whole world.

But, in this age, he is looking for those appointed to eternal life.  They are the believers.

[jabcat]

You silly, this was your question, which I answered  :laughing7:   "are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination".

OK, now we're communicating.  I'm speaking Dutch, you're speaking English  LOL.  So, "who are the sheep of Jesus?" 

Hmmm...Let's do this by elimination; not "everybody living in Israel including the Romans".

Not "only the Jews".

More likely the elect, who do and will profess His name (as their Savior).  However, He said He has other sheep "that are not of this fold".  I believe that means all besides the elect will eventually be brought in.  But that's a 2 cents'er.

[WhiteWings]

It was a bit of trick question

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

"This sheep pen" = Christians
"Other sheep" = Every none Christian

Sheep = brothers and sisters = all humanity


Or  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Well, maybe all sheep aren't brothers and sisters - not all of the same family.  All humans aren't brothers and sisters, as in "the same immediate/core family make-up".  There are aunts and uncles that are extended family - related, but not in the immediate/core family.  Then still others that are human, but not considered family at all. 

As I said in my earlier post, I see the "sheep not of this fold" as unbelievers not yet in the immediate/core family, but they will be, when they're reborn from above.

Jesus elsker dig og det gør jeg

[WhiteWings]

Depends a bit on what  "I have" means.

Thinking about Jewish adoption laws. I think people will get adopted into God's family. Adopted people become part of two blood lines. It maybe not that easy to understand but look here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/jesus_family_9726.msg123485.html#msg123485

Lets assume you were a muslim. You were part of the other flock and you called muslims your brothers and sisters. You are now adopted in the other flock. Are the muslims no longer your brothers and sisters?

Before you married you and your wife where part of two flocks called families. Did your wife lost her previous flock/family when she married you?
Or does she now belong to two flocks/families?

Might seem a weird twist to this thread but if you believe you are adopted by God then that. imo, automaticly means you also must view things from God commanded adoption laws.

I have a knack for overcomplicating things  :laughing7:

[Molly]

Ephesians 1:5
God was kind and decided that Christ would choose us to be God's own adopted children


"the adoption of children"

G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).


The word uihothesia really means one who is appointed as a son.  'Appointment' really fits the meaning a little better than 'adoption.'  This can only be done by God.


G5087
τίθημι
tithēmi
tith'-ay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.



"Adoption, in Christian theology, is the term that describes the admission of a believer into the family of God. In the evangelical ordo salutis ("order of salvation"), adoption is usually regarded as a step immediately subsequent to justification. "

[WhiteWings]

The word uihothesia really means one who is appointed as a son.  'Appointment' really fits the meaning a little better than 'adoption.'  This can only be done by God.

Depends a bit how you look at it I guess.
God commanded adoption laws. In the OT it has a different name. Or just a description. For example a brother or father must take care of his widowed sister and adopt her sons. I have no problem with you using a different word for adoption because I'm sure you know what I mean.
Regardless the most correct word the law itself is from God. So when a child gets adopted according to the law then for me that automaticly means appointed by God. Assuming God always acts according to His own laws He won't appoint differently.

[Molly]

Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers.  It's not open to everyone.

That's what born from above means.


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1]

[jabcat]

Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers.  It's not open to everyone.

That's what born from above means.


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1]

Wow, excellent tie-in. 

[WhiteWings]

Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers.  It's not open to everyone.

Please reread posts 16 and 18 because you seem to completely mis the point.
Imo the verses you quoted aren't relevant.

[Molly]

So, then here's the kicker:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [1 John 3:9]


[Psa 119:3] They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.


[1 John 2:29]If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.


1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

[sheila]

 Sonship comes to all that were dead in Adam. Adam,son of God..died, and all his progency with him.Jesus,son of God,as kinsman redeemer will raise up

  children for Adam. Now,some are appointed to be raised up into sonship in this world,now...and receive discipline,and are not reckoned as bastards

  [those without a Father's discipline] But other's as prodigals in this life,only return after death of flesh.

   When Jesus looked up and saw a GREAT CROWD coming toward him,he said to Philip,'WHERE SHALL WE BUY BREAD FOR THESE PEOPLE TO EAT?"

   He asked this only to test him,for he already had in mind what He was going to do"

    Now this parable is talking about the bread of life,here...and not actually speaking about food for the stomach........how far will this 'bread of life from heaven,go?'

    we know it multiples with always plenty left over.

   Now, the bottom line is.....we hold all things in common with one another........whether all in Adam,or all in Christ....whether in flesh and in spirit...

  whether in bondage to sin or freedom in Christ..


      He come that we have LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY NOW....IN THIS WORLD...TO KNOW THE RICHES OF HIS GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE...

   May the spirit in you,allow you to be liberal and generous on every occassion.   feed my shepp...give the bread of life to the hungry...clothe them...with the free gift of

  righteousness in Christ. visit them in their prison[tell them they shall be delivered into the freedom of the sons of God] comfort the sin sick in Adam

    Should any man,no matter what his state...be denied what God has freely given him....tell him,there's a great Jubilee coming....for all in Adam

[Molly]

Then, Sheila hits it out of the park.  :icon_flower:

But, I only speak of this world.