Paul struggled with his flesh, saying he did what he didn't want to do. Yet he also said that it was no longer him that did it, but the sin that dwelt in him. Either John or James said if one knows God they no longer sin.
All that said (which is enough "theology" to explore and interpret for a long time), I still personally believe we all miss the mark, one way or another. It's true many in the family of God are still very wounded, struggle with "the sin that so easily besets us", have battles with the flesh. I don't believe any of us have obtained perfection. We grow, mature, become more like Him through our trials and tribulations - but still, while breathing have not put on immortality. The only righteousness we have is if we have put on His righteousness, through His grace and Free Gift.
Some talk about either loving the sinner and hating the sin, while others talk about "accepting everyone just as they are". Some ministries (and others, just walking out daily life) believe in just accepting wherever a person is, going ahead and worshipping together, just treating that person as a brother - whether they believe on Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, or nothing. (A large percentage of the Unitarian Universalist "Church" is either agnostic, atheist, or other non-Christian believer. And that's OK, accepted, no big "problem".)
I believe this is a tricky business. It's true, Jesus met people right where they were. He spent time with them, loved them. But how do you think He viewed their sin? Did He interact with them, while just leaving them the same as before? Did He say let's just all fellowship together, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, let's praise God together? Or while loving and spending time with them, did He expect (and bring about) something else in their life? Paul turned the one over to satan who insisted on remaining in his repeated, apparently unrepentant (confessed/acknowledged) sin.
As believers, all wanting to follow Christ, as well as Paul's example (he gave so much instruction to us, the ecclesia of the nations in the matter of Christ-like living), what do you believe our approach should be? "Don't worry about it, I'm OK you're OK", or "..........
I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:01:02 AM
I believe this is a tricky business. It's true, Jesus met people right where they were. He spent time with them, loved them. But how do you think He viewed their sin? Did He interact with them, while just leaving them the same as before? Did He say let's just all fellowship together, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, let's praise God together? Or while loving and spending time with them, did He expect (and bring about) something else in their life?
We have a saying that roughly translates to "You get infected with what you hang out with". I think the similar english expression is "It rubs of on you" ???
Useally it has a negative meaning but I think it can be positive to if the good person (Jesus) has a strong personality a charisma.
QuoteAs believers, all wanting to follow Christ, as well as Paul's example (he gave so much instruction to us, the ecclesia of the nations in the matter of Christ-like living), what do you believe our approach should be? "Don't worry about it, I'm OK you're OK", or "..........
I'm not really the person to answer this particular question but from my own experience wth all sorts of other topics the answer is "Depents on who you talk with."
When explaining/teaching something it's always most effective to tune your story to their thought world not the other way around.
Depending on the subject you could ask guiding questions. Most theories have large hole in them you can exploit. Just get the person tangles in his/her own conflicting thoughts and your job is (half) done. (without mentioning a religious word)
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free. :HeartThrob:
I'm in much agreement with the above,
if they're brothers and sisters. This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters. If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord. **I still believe we should love them and care about them. But among many other things indicating such, Paul said "not all are of the faith".
What if they're actively Buddhist or Muslim and want to enter your small fellowship and worship "god as they understand him"? What if you know their lifestyle is beating their wife and having all the affairs they want because (even it's a twisted version) their religion says it's OK?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
[ "It rubs of on you" ???
There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes. After awhile what do you think happened to him?
Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be
to make a difference? It seems there's some kind of "limits"?
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
[ "It rubs of on you" ???
There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes. After awhile what do you think happened to him?
That's why I wrote you need a strong personality. Otherwise the teacher gets taught. Could "you" turning to drugs or converting back to an ET. I don't have many limits but I'm 100% sure I never will cross them. Drugs I'll never touch. Not even a spliff. My only drug is alcohol. Few glasses and my locomotion (sp?) gets messed up but somehow my head stays quite clear and I
never do things I wouldn't have done when sober. So personally I wouldn't worry at all getting messed up like teh people I'm trying to help. Not that you will ever see me trying to help drugs and alcohol addicts. They are like little children. While others instantly make contact with babies and little children I usually avoid them because I have no clue how to interact with them. In fact many start to cry :mshock:
So while I seem to have a good shield against nasty things I simply wouldn't able to help such people.
I think the answer to you question is that you should take a really critical look at your personality and see if it doesn't get in the way of your goals. If yes do nothing or at least stay away from certain groups. So if you have/had a drinking problem avoid such people at all costs. That shouldn't be a problem because there are many other people that you could help.
QuoteAgain, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference? It seems there's some kind of "limits"?
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14
we need to discuss that verse because it's "wrong" Jesus was totally unevenly yoked I think. Yet it was His mission to be so....
While I don't deny the spiritual aspects of Jesus' I also remember the "you gave me to drink, eat, etc etc" verses.
Meaning doing good non religious work is also work of/for Jesus?
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:39:11 AM
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free. :HeartThrob:
I'm in much agreement with the above, if they're brothers and sisters. This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters. If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord.
James, are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination, level of knowing God etc?
Quote from: wwwe need to discuss that verse because it's "wrong" Jesus was totally unevenly yoked I think. Yet it was His mission to be so....
I think the key to that verse is this verse:
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Heb 2:11]
We are not pulling him down, he is lifting us up.
So I guess the bottom line is--if you are able to lift others up, by all means do it. Just don't let them pull you down. When you are yoked with someone, you become one with them. Paul is giving us a warning.
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 09:01:03 AMWe are not pulling him down, he is lifting us up.
Exactly. Same should be true for any student relationship. So as an answer to James'question I think fellowship shouldn't be limited by sins. Estimating potential effectiveness is better I think.
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:01:02 AM
Some talk about either loving the sinner and hating the sin, while others talk about "accepting everyone just as they are". Some ministries (and others, just walking out daily life) believe in just accepting wherever a person is, going ahead and worshipping together, just treating that person as a brother - whether they believe on Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, or nothing. (A large percentage of the Unitarian Universalist "Church" is either agnostic, atheist, or other non-Christian believer. And that's OK, accepted, no big "problem".)
Is worshipping together really worshipping together if everybody worships something different?
OTOH isn't peace one of Jesus' messages. What's more Christ like? Hanging out with a muslim or declaring war on them? On top of that, hanging out with a muslim has a lot larger chance of him listening to your "jesus sermon" then when being enemies.
Fights never have converted people.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:39:11 AM
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
I believe our approach should be one of caring about our brothers and sisters. It's not about this is right, that is wrong, it's that all who sin are slaves to sin. Jesus doesn't want anyone to be a slave to sin. He came to set us free. :HeartThrob:
I'm in much agreement with the above, if they're brothers and sisters. This could be where we have some differences on this topic, as I don't believe all are brothers and sisters. If one hasn't believed on Jesus, IMO, they're not my brother or sister in the Lord.
James, are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination, level of knowing God etc?
My view;
if they profess Jesus as their Savior, IMO and as far as I'm concerned, they're "in the family" - born from above, God is their Father. That's the criteria - from all walks of life, all races, denominations, etc. Others may be my friend, I may interact with them, enjoy their company from time to time, and I'm called to love them, treat them with respect, and share Jesus with them - either by word, deed, or both. Reminds me of the saying; "your life is the only Bible some people will ever read".
That wasn't my question :hammerhead:
Who are the sheep of Jesus? Those who did profess His name? Only the elect? Only the Jews? Everybody living in Israel including the Romans?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 09:30:53 AM
That wasn't my question :hammerhead:
Who are the sheep of Jesus? Those who did profess His name? Only the elect? Only the Jews? Everybody living in Israel including the Romans?
He told his disciples to preach the gospel to the whole world.
But, in this age, he is looking for those appointed to eternal life. They are the believers.
You silly, this was your question, which I answered :laughing7: "are all sheep Jesus owns/has are you brothers and sisters? Or does it have some limitation like denomination".
OK, now we're communicating. I'm speaking Dutch, you're speaking English LOL. So, "who are the sheep of Jesus?"
Hmmm...Let's do this by elimination; not "everybody living in Israel including the Romans".
Not "only the Jews".
More likely the elect, who do and will profess His name (as their Savior). However, He said He has other sheep "that are not of this fold". I believe that means all besides the elect will eventually be brought in. But that's a 2 cents'er.
It was a bit of trick question
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
"This sheep pen" = Christians
"Other sheep" = Every none Christian
Sheep = brothers and sisters = all humanity
Or :dontknow:
Well, maybe all sheep aren't brothers and sisters - not all of the same family. All humans aren't brothers and sisters, as in "the same immediate/core family make-up". There are aunts and uncles that are extended family - related, but not in the immediate/core family. Then still others that are human, but not considered family at all.
As I said in my earlier post, I see the "sheep not of this fold" as unbelievers not yet in the immediate/core family, but they will be, when they're reborn from above.
Jesus elsker dig og det gør jeg
Depends a bit on what "I have" means.
Thinking about Jewish adoption laws. I think people will get adopted into God's family. Adopted people become part of two blood lines. It maybe not that easy to understand but look here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/jesus_family_9726.msg123485.html#msg123485
Lets assume you were a muslim. You were part of the other flock and you called muslims your brothers and sisters. You are now adopted in the other flock. Are the muslims no longer your brothers and sisters?
Before you married you and your wife where part of two flocks called families. Did your wife lost her previous flock/family when she married you?
Or does she now belong to two flocks/families?
Might seem a weird twist to this thread but if you believe you are adopted by God then that. imo, automaticly means you also must view things from God commanded adoption laws.
I have a knack for overcomplicating things :laughing7:
Ephesians 1:5
God was kind and decided that Christ would choose us to be God's own adopted children
"the adoption of children"
G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).
The word uihothesia really means one who is appointed as a son. 'Appointment' really fits the meaning a little better than 'adoption.' This can only be done by God.
G5087
τίθημι
tithēmi
tith'-ay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.
"Adoption, in Christian theology, is the term that describes the admission of a believer into the family of God. In the evangelical ordo salutis ("order of salvation"), adoption is usually regarded as a step immediately subsequent to justification. "
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 11:01:02 AM
The word uihothesia really means one who is appointed as a son. 'Appointment' really fits the meaning a little better than 'adoption.' This can only be done by God.
Depends a bit how you look at it I guess.
God commanded adoption laws. In the OT it has a different name. Or just a description. For example a brother or father
must take care of his widowed sister and adopt her sons. I have no problem with you using a different word for adoption because I'm sure you know what I mean.
Regardless the most correct word the law itself is from God. So when a child gets adopted according to the law then for me that automaticly means appointed by God. Assuming God always acts according to His own laws He won't appoint differently.
Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers. It's not open to everyone.
That's what born from above means.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1]
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 12:55:36 PM
Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers. It's not open to everyone.
That's what born from above means.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1]
Wow, excellent tie-in.
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 12:55:36 PM
Yes, it is a different type of appointment, in that the Christian adoption as sons applies only to believers. It's not open to everyone.
Please reread posts 16 and 18 because you seem to completely mis the point.
Imo the verses you quoted aren't relevant.
So, then here's the kicker:
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [1 John 3:9]
[Psa 119:3] They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.
[1 John 2:29]If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Sonship comes to all that were dead in Adam. Adam,son of God..died, and all his progency with him.Jesus,son of God,as kinsman redeemer will raise up
children for Adam. Now,some are appointed to be raised up into sonship in this world,now...and receive discipline,and are not reckoned as bastards
[those without a Father's discipline] But other's as prodigals in this life,only return after death of flesh.
When Jesus looked up and saw a GREAT CROWD coming toward him,he said to Philip,'WHERE SHALL WE BUY BREAD FOR THESE PEOPLE TO EAT?"
He asked this only to test him,for he already had in mind what He was going to do"
Now this parable is talking about the bread of life,here...and not actually speaking about food for the stomach........how far will this 'bread of life from heaven,go?'
we know it multiples with always plenty left over.
Now, the bottom line is.....we hold all things in common with one another........whether all in Adam,or all in Christ....whether in flesh and in spirit...
whether in bondage to sin or freedom in Christ..
He come that we have LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY NOW....IN THIS WORLD...TO KNOW THE RICHES OF HIS GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE...
May the spirit in you,allow you to be liberal and generous on every occassion. feed my shepp...give the bread of life to the hungry...clothe them...with the free gift of
righteousness in Christ. visit them in their prison[tell them they shall be delivered into the freedom of the sons of God] comfort the sin sick in Adam
Should any man,no matter what his state...be denied what God has freely given him....tell him,there's a great Jubilee coming....for all in Adam
Then, Sheila hits it out of the park. :icon_flower:
But, I only speak of this world.
Jeremiah 23;6 and 33;16 and echariah 12;7
appointments and in orders....Joseph seated brothers around table in birth order......
In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will LIVE in safety...
I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them
The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first,so that the honour of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitant's may not be greater than that of Judah.
The above speaks of appointments and birth orders.
For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost. But all are still as sheep.
Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships. Everything is based on relationship. Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger. I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive. That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.
It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example. Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ. I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.
I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself. By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him. And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3. It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected. The sin is no longer charged against us. God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives. What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective. If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
[ "It rubs of on you" ???
There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes. After awhile what do you think happened to him?
Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference? It seems there's some kind of "limits"?
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14
The great majority of us who work with alcoholics and drug addicts are recovering addicts and alcoholics. This almost sounds like cootie talk from elementary school. People afraid to be around the one with cooties or it might rub off. I'm sorry but addiction doesn't work that way. My wife could be around heroin, crack, MJ, alcohol and I'm convinced would never even desire to try those things. Why? Because she doesn't have a genetic predisposition towards addiction. The great majority of the population would never have an issue with drugs because they try to help those with drug problems. They do not have that disposition towards addiction.
This pastor who fell into addiction most likely had addiction issues, or at the very least a genetic predisposition to addiction. So, should addicts not work with other addicts for fear of it "rubbing off" or influencing our behaviors? There are many who are not ready. But, there is a reason for the 12th step...and that is for an alcoholic or an addict to work with others who are struggling. It's an essential step that strengthens and doesn't weaken our recovery. But, it's not for the newcomer in recovery.
I take this same approach with everything. One must know their own limits. They need to follow that inner compass. They must follow the Holy Spirit's leading. But, to say we shouldn't serve for fear of becoming like those we serve is short sighted at best.
And we must make a distinction between service and social. Should we befriend those who abuse the name of God, who cross our spiritual boundries, and who follow the flesh? I can't imagine that being a healthy thing to do. I have no desire to have friends that do not love the Lord. But, I do have a desire to share my faith with those who do not know the Lord.
We must recognize the difference is yolking ourselves to friends and companions vs looking for opportunities to be of service to the lost. There is a difference.
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 04:19:24 PMSo, then here's the kicker
It isn't. You posting verses about sons while the discussion is about brothers and sisters.
Lets assume 2 men living in a muslim flock. They are brothers. The flock is their family.
One man converts to Christianity.
Obviously one man calls the Christians his brothers and the other calls the muslim his brothers. I think we agree so far.
The real question is: Do they still call each other brothers?
Quote from: Nathan on October 05, 2011, 04:54:24 PM
For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost. But all are still as sheep.
Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships. Everything is based on relationship. Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger. I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive. That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.
It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example. Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ. I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.
I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself. By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him. And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3. It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected. The sin is no longer charged against us. God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives. What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective. If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.
I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this other than what you may define as "friend". I believe it's tough but not impossible to witness to someone with whom you have no relationship with. I do believe relationship to be the vehicle with which witness is strengthened. But, when we look for an opportunity, and we build a relationship in order to witness is that friendship? I would say no. For me, a friend is someone I can talk to about things I keep hidden from others. They are someone who can participate in the mutual spiritual building process. Someone who follows the flesh can not be that person to me. People I consider friends know Christ, we talk about Christ and our friendship is built upon that rock. What you are talking about in my book is a friendly acquaintance.
yeah,and He also told us,He WILL LEAVE THE 99 FOR THE SAKE OF ONE....the 99 need to make sure they don't push with shouldre and shove 'that class'
away from the free gift......I will judge between a sheep and a sheep....THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANTSPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE!a clue in about
the very nature of our Shepherd
Luke 16;8 the Parable of the shrewd manager 'what shall I do now,my Master is taking away my job.I'm not strong enough to dig,and I'm ashamed to beg-"
I KNOW WHAT I'LL DO SO THAT WHEN I LOSE MY JOB HERE,PEOPLE WILL WELCOME ME INTO THEIR HOUSES...
So,He called in each one of his masters 'debtors'......he began systematically reducing debt.......
Good Samaritan parable.....samaritan commended by God.....others concerned about 'ritual' purity....there YOU HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST ON THE MATTER
For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the Light.
Cancelling of all debt upon us....
so,if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth,who will trut you with the true riches[spiritual gifts]
and if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property,who will give you property of your own.
you received freely,give freely
this is my bone of contention with those that sentence the dead in Adam to LOF....weren't you also dead in Adam? didn't you receive undeserved kindness?
a free gift? then 'who are you" to deny the same to others? Do these things not belong to the Lord?...Enlarge your hearts..enlarge your tent stakes
:thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on October 05, 2011, 05:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nathan on October 05, 2011, 04:54:24 PM
For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost. But all are still as sheep.
Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships. Everything is based on relationship. Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger. I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive. That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.
It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example. Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ. I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.
I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself. By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him. And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3. It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected. The sin is no longer charged against us. God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives. What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective. If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.
I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this other than what you may define as "friend". I believe it's tough but not impossible to witness to someone with whom you have no relationship with. I do believe relationship to be the vehicle with which witness is strengthened. But, when we look for an opportunity, and we build a relationship in order to witness is that friendship? I would say no. For me, a friend is someone I can talk to about things I keep hidden from others. They are someone who can participate in the mutual spiritual building process. Someone who follows the flesh can not be that person to me. People I consider friends know Christ, we talk about Christ and our friendship is built upon that rock. What you are talking about in my book is a friendly acquaintance.
But that's the whole point, my experience with God is not a product to go to the street corner and sell to others . . .it's a personal relationship. And so as such, others can't experience this relationship unless there is a relationship there to build on. My intent is not to "save" the world, but instead, it's to be a friend . . ."be" Christ. I don't befriend someone because I think they need to go to heaven. I should befriend them because that's what God's nature "is". It's not religion, it's friendship.
I kinda raised a few eyebrows in my church a while back when I told them we should do what Jesus instructed Peter to do . . we should lay our swords down . . . lay our interpretation of God's word down and just be friends with people and let our relationship with God manifest on it's own "through" our friendship.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 05:21:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2011, 04:19:24 PMSo, then here's the kicker
It isn't. You posting verses about sons while the discussion is about brothers and sisters.
Lets assume 2 men living in a muslim flock. They are brothers. The flock is their family.
One man converts to Christianity.
Obviously one man calls the Christians his brothers and the other calls the muslim his brothers. I think we agree so far.
The real question is: Do they still call each other brothers?
Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you."
But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
--Mat 12
Nathan...this could very well be a maturity in Christ thing. I may come to see it as you do in the future. Or maybe we are just disagree on definitions. But, I do make a distinction between those I am yolked (friends) with and those I build a friendly relationship with. And while I don't see a need to "save the world" or "keep someone out of hell" or anything of the like...I can't but help wanting to share what I have come to know. It's bursting out of me and I can't but help talk about Christ. Sometimes that spills out onto a stranger, or someone I barely know.
Agree with your last post Shawn. :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on October 05, 2011, 05:15:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
[ "It rubs of on you" ???
There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes. After awhile what do you think happened to him?
Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference? It seems there's some kind of "limits"?[/b]
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14
The great majority of us who work with alcoholics and drug addicts are recovering addicts and alcoholics. This almost sounds like cootie talk from elementary school. People afraid to be around the one with cooties or it might rub off. I'm sorry but addiction doesn't work that way. My wife could be around heroin, crack, MJ, alcohol and I'm convinced would never even desire to try those things. Why? Because she doesn't have a genetic predisposition towards addiction. The great majority of the population would never have an issue with drugs because they try to help those with drug problems. They do not have that disposition towards addiction.
This pastor who fell into addiction most likely had addiction issues, or at the very least a genetic predisposition to addiction. So, should addicts not work with other addicts for fear of it "rubbing off" or influencing our behaviors? There are many who are not ready. But, there is a reason for the 12th step...and that is for an alcoholic or an addict to work with others who are struggling. It's an essential step that strengthens and doesn't weaken our recovery. But, it's not for the newcomer in recovery.
I take this same approach with everything. One must know their own limits. They need to follow that inner compass. They must follow the Holy Spirit's leading. But, to say we shouldn't serve for fear of becoming like those we serve is short sighted at best.
And we must make a distinction between service and social. Should we befriend those who abuse the name of God, who cross our spiritual boundries, and who follow the flesh? I can't imagine that being a healthy thing to do. I have no desire to have friends that do not love the Lord. But, I do have a desire to share my faith with those who do not know the Lord.
We must recognize the difference is yolking ourselves to friends and companions vs looking for opportunities to be of service to the lost. There is a difference.
No cooties, I just believe in many ways we're all vulnerable if we don't take the steps to keep our main relationships healthy - including with the Lord. As you indicate, I also believe there are probably some limits as well as things to be aware of. Limits in terms of, that probably shouldn't be our only or even main source of contact or relationship. Also, as
suggested in the OP and elsewhere to stimulate conversation, but now I'll more clearly state,
I believe we should be there to make a difference, not just "hang out" and look for our primary source of "fellowship", influence, or (and I don't know where the line is, probably different for everyone) main attachments. I've worked with addicts for 28 years. I'm talking more about personal relationships, relationships in a group of ecclesia, and generally how as believers we are responsible to view and respond.
* Really, the whole point of the thread, from my perspective is, I believe we are to be salt and light, "change agents" -
not a "forced", self-righteous thing, but an avenue for Him to work through us to help accomplish the "go and sin no more" as our heart's desire -
for me included. Willing to say " I may not always be able to do it myself, but here's how I understand God's will on this".
As stated in the OP, I believe WE ALL MISS THE MARK. Paul did apparently, but he didn't live in stubborn, unrepentant (unacknowledged) constantly willing sin. His heart was for the Lord and His ways. His flesh just didn't always cooperate. Again, I'm addressing "do we just accept everyone (including ourself) as being "OK, doesn't matter, don't worry about - Muslim, Buddhist, rapist, all are hunky-dory we're all worshiping the same god and are going to the same place (I've actually heard that said)", or do we love the heck out of them, be their friend, while being willing to say "how do we seek God's will together and what does He have to say about X,Y,Z"? You know, I've been in MANY discussions and situations where I either went along with the wickedness, or took a stand and remained true to my conscience and what I knew God's teachings were on the matter. Sometimes I've stood, very few times handled it with grace, and many times I've failed. As I said, I think it's a tricky business - to know the parameters and do it well. I don't do it very well. And just from this limited discussion over the past 24 hours, once again, it becomes evident we have many opinions and ways to look at it and go about it. :bigGrin: Good thing it's ultimately not up to us, that's it's "God working
through us to accomplish His good pleasure". :thumbsup:
P.S. As I recall the evangelist story I heard, he had not spent as much time fellowshipping with healthy influences, sort of cutting himself off from some of that and instead spending "too much?" time "in the gutter"? (I can't judge.) I think of Jesus. Even He went away from the masses and spent time alone with His Father and with His disciples. I believe it was to stay focused, refreshed, and strengthened. It seems He did that often. He spent a lot time with the wounded and hurting, even to His criticism. But He spent maybe even more time with His primary ("equally yoked") relationships. :2c:
I'm speculating, because we're not specifically told. But I'd guess the woman Jesus told to "go and sin no more", probably did sin some more, in one way or another. She was still human. However, I believe she was changed; that her heart and desires were different. And even though still living in a stubborn body of flesh, that she began to seek God's will as her goal. He loved her and accepted her, but He made a difference, not just left her the same as He found her. :2c:
sometimes we escape something'by the skin of our teeth" these things impact us more intensely,I think. Cause us to be more diligent,more aware
of the trap and snare.
Rather than seeing that passage as Jesus instructing her not to sin anymore, what if what he's actually saying is, in her, sin is no more.
Quote from: Nathan on October 05, 2011, 10:30:06 PM
Rather than seeing that passage as Jesus instructing her not to sin anymore, what if what he's actually saying is, in her, sin is no more.
I think that is reasonable. If it is a believer who no longer sins but their flesh that sins...why not for this lady as well?
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2011, 08:34:25 PM
P.S. As I recall the evangelist story I heard, he had not spent as much time fellowshipping with healthy influences, sort of cutting himself off from some of that and instead spending "too much?" time "in the gutter"? (I can't judge.) I think of Jesus. Even He went away from the masses and spent time alone with His Father and with His disciples. I believe it was to stay focused, refreshed, and strengthened. It seems He did that often. He spent a lot time with the wounded and hurting, even to His criticism. But He spent maybe even more time with His primary ("equally yoked") relationships. :2c:
I'm not saying there is never a place for barstool evangelism. What I will say is that it is very dangerous for an alcoholic or an addict to do it. I suspect the pastor had an attraction to these people for a reason. I wanted to work with alcoholics long before I was sober. Those with alcoholic predispositions often find co-dependent counterparts even before they start drinking and drugging. I know I did. It's almost like people can smell other peoples genetic tendencies and gravitate to those individuals they can be sick with. I suspect that pastor either had an addiction issue himself, or had close family members in addiction. In either case, hanging out in the gutter long enough (with a genetic predisposition) is bound to have an effect. There are safe and unsafe ways to help those with addiction issues. While I help those with addiction issues, you probably won't see me at a bar recruiting to A.A. meetings anytime soon.
Quote from: sheila on October 05, 2011, 10:28:15 PM
sometimes we escape something'by the skin of our teeth" these things impact us more intensely,I think. Cause us to be more diligent,more aware
of the trap and snare.
I think that is a fair assessment. Many of us talk about the same things with different terms. For me... escaping by the skin of our teeth means coming close to death...hitting a bottom. If you had to hit a bottom in order to change a behavior it is something that changes you forever.