Tentmaker Forum

Somehow I ended up reading and researching on Day of Atonement right after reading Romans 5:6 - while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. And the word ungodly includes "the wicked".. http://biblehub.com/greek/765.htm

[Romans 5:6 the interlinear w/ word links - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/5-6.htm ]

Leviticus chapter 16 details the Day of Atonement's two goats.. Verse 8 - the high priest casts lots concerning the two goats - makes a bull offering for himself and his household, then the goat offering for the rest of Israel - both sacrificial blood of them taken inside the veil (once a year on Day of Atonement).

Then the high priest brings the other goat, places his hands on him and confesses over it all the sins of Israel, which this (scape)goat will bear and then the goat is led out to the wilderness to a solitary place and let go.

I read commentary about the two goats which equate the wilderness (scape)goat with the adversary, who is locked away from society for the 1000 year millenium. Some equated it to the 1000 years locked away (in the pit of darkness) and others to being eternally banished.

But having a more U.R./C.U. mindset I had to wonder about the second idea, especially considering both Eph. 1:10 and Col. 1:20 about all in heaven and earth being gathered into Jesus..

Along with these ideas I had a couple of other thoughts.. how the "sin offering" goat that was sacrificed represents, as we know, our Lord, the Passover Lamb.. He being a Lamb. So what, I wondered, is the impact of two "goats"? And of course goats makes us think of what the Lord said about separating the sheep and goats at the time of His return, etc.. (including the tares into bundles to be burned and the wheat into His barn - both individual, wheat and chaff works of hay and stubble burned up - and collective/goats.

And I started to think of the two classes of humanity, sheep and goats -- believers and unbelievers.

And I read this in a commentary - https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/what-does-the-day-of-atonement-have-to-do-with-jesus-christ - What Does the Day of Atonement Have to Do With Jesus Christ?

Quote
Passover (the Holy Day) concerns the redemption of the firstborn and thus applies most directly to
christians whom God has called in this age, while (Day of) Atonement carries universal implications.

The (scape) goat / Azazel, said in commentary to represent the adversary, perhaps also(?) the goats as a class, i.e. the not saved during this lifetime, as opposed to the goats turned sheep via their faith- i.e. those chosen (by lot! lucky shake of the cosmic dice!? not because of any superiority, etc) to come to the faith during this lifetime (the "elect" - chosen/designated, thus called, thus sanctified - hearts made clean at conversion! Acts 15:9)

The two goats.. all sinners and "wicked" - but one class become sheep ("crucified with Christ").. called firstborn (like firstborn of Israel Passed Over by the angel of death on that first Passover in Egypt)

Other remain goats, and like the adversary is 'away' during the millennium, the "rest of the dead, come not back to life until after the thousand years has ended" - Revelation 20:6,11-14

while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. And the word ungodly includes "the wicked"

1 Timothy 2:6 - having given Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (in its own time)

:dontknow: :Peace2: just some thoughts on a sunny morning.. (I liked the phrase, "universal implications of Day of Atonement" link is above) ..u.r. implications (imo) :cloud9:

G'day Marie;
Here's a little variation;
Indeed the one sacrificed represents Jesus- the remains taken outside the camp- which Heb 13;12,13 talks about.
Heb 10;4 says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to be taking away our sins, otherwise one sacrifice would be necessary, not many.
Heb 9;24 Christ blood in the heavens before God- the real atonement.

Now the variation is about the scapegoat- perhaps this represents us in this age, where all our sins are brought before our head/mind and are then carried away to the wilderness- but the scapegoat was not to be killed- we in this wilderness of this age, until the resurrection- this age the flesh carrying us around and trying to deceive our mindset, but the spirit reminds us that the other goat has covered everything.

Also interesting the use of goats, not sheep. Similar looking, but different. The goats could well be representing humanity, not the Jews/sheep. Abram saw many stars and that was before the Jews were around.

This all boils down to Paul's observation about the law;
Romans 7;7 " What shall we say then? Is the law sin?
                     Far be it!
                     On the contrary, I had not discovered sin except through the law;
                      FOR I HAD NOT EVEN BEEN AWARE OF COVETING HAD NOT THE LAW SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

The law brought in to explain this whole need for the sacrifice of Christ- atonement for all mankind.
I.M.O what will be taught about during the resurrection stages.

Definitely still much to learn. Awesomely positive.

Quote from: Ross on February 22, 2018, 01:47:56 PM
G'day Marie;
Here's a little variation;
Indeed the one sacrificed represents Jesus- the remains taken outside the camp- which Heb 13;12,13 talks about.
Heb 10;4 says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to be taking away our sins, otherwise one sacrifice would be necessary, not many.
Heb 9;24 Christ blood in the heavens before God- the real atonement.

Now the variation is about the scapegoat- perhaps this represents us in this age, where all our sins are brought before our head/mind and are then carried away to the wilderness- but the scapegoat was not to be killed- we in this wilderness of this age, until the resurrection- this age the flesh carrying us around and trying to deceive our mindset, but the spirit reminds us that the other goat has covered everything.

Also interesting the use of goats, not sheep. Similar looking, but different. The goats could well be representing humanity, not the Jews/sheep. Abram saw many stars and that was before the Jews were around.

This all boils down to Paul's observation about the law;
Romans 7;7 " What shall we say then? Is the law sin?
                     Far be it!
                     On the contrary, I had not discovered sin except through the law;
                      FOR I HAD NOT EVEN BEEN AWARE OF COVETING HAD NOT THE LAW SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

The law brought in to explain this whole need for the sacrifice of Christ- atonement for all mankind.
I.M.O what will be taught about during the resurrection stages.

Definitely still much to learn. Awesomely positive.

Amen bro  :dsunny:    :thumbsup:
I agree   Ross ,

So much to learn of the LORD    :dsunny:


Seems   goats by nature are unruly   is that not our fleshy  human nature 
  Seems the sheep will follow a shepherds voice ,  when they spend time with   them and this could be the   mind of Christ as  a  lamb of  God  , following His Fathers Voice  to the cross  and sheep to slaughter  Isaiah 53 
as some sheep scatter and go off alone  when threatened .
Where goats have no preference    , hate to be   fenced in and love to wander  off  eating what ever they find  dead or alive  brush ,Goats are known for eating everything!  lots  of  thorns and thistles & briers   , Adams curse ?
I always think of Cain as a wanderer     as a scape goat , God   let him live but released him   to the wilderness  to wander  with them being a law unto themselves   , cursed   from the presence of the Lord  as  our protection    and keeper of flocks

Seems he represents lawlessness   , by being a killing nomad     7 times God says  vengeance would be taken   upon his murder   [adding sin /error  to sins/errors  ? ]    ruling their own hearts and making excuses for one another,  sounds  like it to me at this time .
   
  Where as sheep love to eat green pastures but must be led to them  Mostly sheep eat grass, clover, forbs, and other pasture plants. They especially love forbs. In fact, it is usually their first choice of food in a pasture. A forb is a broad-leaf plant with flowering tops other than grass .  Living things .

I  think of Abel as a  tender of  sheep  being the breath in a man  that was  quenching the Spirit of life out of him and spilling his blood /life is in the blood  , on the ground   that cries out to God for   vengeance  in the earth

Being the sheep and goats separation   judgments  of Gods Word and working   in us all   of death and life from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ...

Atonement comes though God judging a separating   reparation ,the action of repairing something  for a wrong or injury as a time to repent . change your mind and nature   from one   way or  the other .


  God showed mercy on both   Cain and Abel    but in different ways   in the sense of  he whom is filthy let him be  filthy still  and he whom is holy be holy still    Till the Lord comes to judge  the quick and the dead ..  what if  dead works are the vanity all have been subjected to  a are fitted for destruction   as    a purpose God has to show  what evil is and its results  by

12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done....

  rest for the  weary and  lowly at heart  to come unto Him and  find rest for your souls   or no rest for the wicked but continue in the wilderness  as a   world of hurt and  harm   and separation from God  in fear of God  not love  [hidden from sight ]  till the end  when you  are just sick and tired of being sick and tired  and  give it to God .

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Amen Rose and Ross! Some great insights..

Especially the comparison Rose, of the sheep and goats! Their pasturing and what they eat, etc.. And how it seems to coincide well with Cain and Abel.  :thumbsup: :idea2: I never saw that before but it sure seems obvious now..


Amen, Ross.. the goat and lamb of our own nature!

Quote from: Ross on February 22, 2018, 01:47:56 PM
This all boils down to Paul's observation about the law;
Romans 7;7 " What shall we say then? Is the law sin?
                     Far be it!
                     On the contrary, I had not discovered sin except through the law;
                      FOR I HAD NOT EVEN BEEN AWARE OF COVETING HAD NOT THE LAW SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

The law brought in to explain this whole need for the sacrifice of Christ- atonement for all mankind.
I.M.O what will be taught about during the resurrection stages.

Definitely still much to learn. Awesomely positive.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I decided to do a bible word search for the phrase "Day of Atonement"
(universal implications of Day of Atonement..)

And also came across this -
https://bible.org/seriespage/10-day-atonement-leviticus-16

Quote
Unlike the other Jewish holidays, the Day of Atonement was no festive event. It was a day of national mourning and repentance...  ..day when the people were to "humble their souls" which, according to many, included fasting. This would thus be the only religious holiday which was characterized by mourning, fasting, and repentance. (cf. Lev. 16:31; 23:27; Num. 29:7)

..and I've read such before, with the word reconciliation included.. (annual) national, collective day


phrase search
26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath." - Leviticus 23

Leviticus 25:9 - Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.

Numbers 29 is about the Fall Holy Days (the offerings on those days) - Trumpets (6 verses), DOA (5 verses) and Tabernacles (28 verses) - I think that's interesting.. so many more offerings on Tabernacles, even though the feast does last 7 days (7, completeness?).. [Rev 21:1-5 "God will now tabernacle/tent with man.." ..."all in all" 1 Cor. 15:28]

Lev. 16:30,31 - For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. It shall be a sabbath of rest to you, and you shall humble yourselves, by a statute forever.

And of course for us while awaiting His return, etc -
Heb. 10:22 - let us draw near with a sincere heart in the assurance that faith brings, because we have had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience...

 :2c: the whole book of Joel,imo is that preparation..let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber[versus marrying andgiving in marriage until that day come]

upon them. the Holy spirit marking in the forehead those that mourn over all that is done.mourning as for an only son..and seeing the one they pierced etc.

  the eating and drinking,marrying and giving  in marriage/and taking no note etc.until that day be upon them.

even now rend your heart......sackcloth/twowittnesses..sun as black as sackcloth etc.