The "second death" what exactly is it?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Good points from Thomas Kissinger I thought were pertinent...

"When we don't go on to understand the process of God it makes us
sound as though we believe it is o.k. to remain in sin, rebellion,
and unbelief and still be saved. While it is true that God is going
to draw all men to Him regardless of their rebellion, the fact of the
matter is that their rebellion to Him WILL BE CORRECTED. This is how
they will be drawn to Him.

All must go through justification (calling on the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ), sanctification (being conformed in your mind, will,
and emotions to the image of God), and glorification (have your body
raised to immortality in the same sense that Jesus was raised from
the dead - HE IS THE PATTERN). There are no exceptions. How can God
be all in all if all are not brought through the same process unto
perfection in Him?"  http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/

God's blessing, James.

[Zeek]

All must go through justification (calling on the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ), sanctification (being conformed in your mind, will,
and emotions to the image of God), and glorification (have your body
raised to immortality in the same sense that Jesus was raised from
the dead - HE IS THE PATTERN).
God's blessing, James.

So do you believe that those who don't go through justification in this life will be raised again in another human body, in order for the "mind" to be justified/santcified, since the "mind, will, and emotions" are formed when a human body is given "life"?   

and if so, after these people who are living a "second time" are justified/sanctified; will they have to die again in order to be given immortality?? 

i'm not saying u believe this, but wonder how you see "all being sanctified" if this isn't the process? 

[Zeek]

For me, I see two ways of getting to salvation;

1.  narrow gate

2.  broad gate


One leads to Life (NOW), never dying (not dying in your sins)

One leads to perpetual shame.  Dying in sins.


Both are God's plan. 


I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification). 


All result in the same end:  Christ; every knee will bow, tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Jer 23:38  And if the burden of Jehovah ye say, Therefore thus said Jehovah: Because of your saying this word, The burden of Jehovah, And I do send unto you, saying, Ye do not say, The burden of Jehovah.

Jer 23:39  Therefore, lo, I--I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!

or another translation

Jer 23:39  I will forget you completely. I will expel you from my presence, along with this city that I gave to you and your ancestors.

Jer 23:40  And I will make you an object of ridicule, and your name will be infamous throughout the ages.' "


sounds to me like as long as there are ages, the shame is present??

:2c:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

When I come into all things are passed away, I see this as my old way of thinking.  My old way of diciphering, my old way of reasoning . . .it's all been transformed . . ."behold, I will make all things new"  he didn't say he'll make all new things . . . but he'll make all things new.  I still think . . .God hasn't removed my thinking . . .he's just renewed "how" I think.

We've conversed on other threads about the idea of dimensions.  Natural, moral/corporate, and spiritual.  When we come into Christ, our objective changes from living in the natural . .where we primarily are living in a "reactive" mode.  Which is to say, by the time "I" respond to something, the damage is already done.  I'm just reacting and responding after the fact. 

But when I leave the natural for the spiritual, it's no longer reactive, but "pro" active.  We look for the end from the beginning and when in the spirit, this becomes accessable and we can then "call out" that which isn't as though it is. . .which is faith . . .and we can avert the pitfalls that we'd otherwise become entangled with prior to coming into Christ.  :thumbsup:

For me, sin is the same way.  when I'm walking in the natural reasoning mind, it's easy to see there is much sin in me, even though I claim to be a follower of Christ . . .who, by the way, is what?  Is he not a "spirit"?  So when I let him transform me and I begin pursuing spiritual things, my natural perspectives transform right along with that.  When I am "in Christ" I am in the Light . .where there is NO DARKNESS. 

But for me to be in Christ, I must be in the spirit . . .because physically, right now, I'm not in Christ, I'm in a cubical in front of a computer screen.  But spiritually, I've left the building.  So, in one realm, yeah, there is sin in me, but in another . . .I can not sin . .so which realm would you choose then to pursue?  Is this ignoring my failures?  Of course not.  I'm well aware they are there, but if Christ is my completion, fulfillment and perfection, why would I then emphasize and dwell on my incompleteness, shortcomings, and failures?

If Christ has made me a king and a priest . .that is where I want to walk.  So in the natural, yeah, there are imperfections in my life.  But in the spirit, I am born again, I am renewed, redeemed and reconciled back to the Father.  It's all in what dimension you choose to walk in.

This is probably the best "born again" offering I have read... must soak it in...  :cloud9:

Boy brother N... well said!  :cloud9:  Thanks for sharing this... Many here lately, are at the firing line, ...shooting out truth to those who would love to get in the way of it!   

lies---> :faint: :Shoot: <---truth

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Zeek, not sure I have a definitve answer to your question.  It's a good question though.  I was really addressing the sanctification aspect, which IMO, is connected to what Nathan's talking about, walking in the Spirit, becoming more like Him.

[YoungYuni]

For me, I see two ways of getting to salvation;

1.  narrow gate

2.  broad gate


One leads to Life (NOW), never dying (not dying in your sins)

One leads to perpetual shame.  Dying in sins.

Both are God's plan. 

I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification). 

All result in the same end:  Christ; every knee will bow, tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Jer 23:38  And if the burden of Jehovah ye say, Therefore thus said Jehovah: Because of your saying this word, The burden of Jehovah, And I do send unto you, saying, Ye do not say, The burden of Jehovah.

Jer 23:39  Therefore, lo, I--I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!

or another translation

Jer 23:39  I will forget you completely. I will expel you from my presence, along with this city that I gave to you and your ancestors.

Jer 23:40  And I will make you an object of ridicule, and your name will be infamous throughout the ages.' "


sounds to me like as long as there are ages, the shame is present??

:2c:

Hiya Zeek!

You got it right.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

:2c: :msealed:

[WhiteWings]

I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

Was Jesus speaking about gates in this life only or also in the afterlife? -> makes a huge difference...
Many go trough the wide gate in this life. When eventually all are saved (in the afterlife) they all passed through the narrow gate?

[YoungYuni]

I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

Was Jesus speaking about gates in this life only or also in the afterlife? -> makes a huge difference...
Many go trough the wide gate in this life. When eventually all are saved (in the afterlife) they all passed through the narrow gate?

There is two ways into the Kingdom of Heaven.

1) The narrow gate, few will find it and enter through.
2) The wide gate, many will find it and enter through.

Jesus made it clear only few will make it through the narrow gate.

The apostle Paul said the same thing.

Whoever builds their house with gold, silver, precious gems (talking about heavenly things which do not perish) versus whoever builds their house with wood, hay and stubble (talking about the earthly things that will perish).

Whoever plants a harvest of blessing versus the one who plants a harvest of thorns and thistles.

Whoever lives after the sinful nature will die, whoever lives after the Spirit will live.

One will enter the Kingdom with reward, the other will enter the Kingdom with loss.

Jesus died so that all mankind can enter the Kingdom of God; Jesus died so that none would be lost, both still enter the Kingdom of God just how the journey plays out is up to the choices a person makes.

It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.

No wonder Christians do not embrace Universalism, Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's and tangents that have no foundation on a biblical basis, and it is embarrassing having to correct the unsound doctrines that seem to be coming out of this machine.

Psalm 62:12
12And lovingkindness is Yours, O Lord, for You recompense a man according to his work.

1 Corinthians 3:8
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

1 Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

Galatians 6:4
4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Revelation 2:18-23
18 "To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Revelation 3:1-3, 14-16
1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

:mblush: :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.
...........
Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's
...........
But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

YC,
If that's adressed to me you are mistaking. I was asking questions. Not stating an (assumed) fact.

[YoungYuni]

It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.
...........
Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's
...........
But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

YC,
If that's adressed to me you are mistaking. I was asking questions. Not stating an (assumed) fact.

Hiya,

Nope that wasn't addressed to you.

It was a general statement concerning those who would ignore Jesus and follow their own ideas of how things should be.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

[peacemaker]

                                                         :gthumbsup:
The first condition of immortality is death!

peacemaker

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

Hi Willie, i'm sure T will have his own thots, but this is how I see it.

I know u don't like only lists of scripture; but see if it flows for u


Rom 9:3  For I could pray to be accursed from Christ on behalf of my brethren, my human kinsfolk--for such the Israelites are.

Rom 9:4  To them belongs recognition as God's sons, and they have His glorious Presence and the Covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the Temple service, and the ancient Promises.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead (imo; those cut off, the bretheren Paul wished he could be exchanged with). It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Paul (a  believer) imo, didn't see himself as part of the "dead", as he had

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Co 15:44  It (old covenenant Israel) is sown a natural body (ministration of death); it is raised a spiritual body (spiritual covenant). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (minstration of death); and afterward that which is spiritual (new covenant).

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we (imo, all Israel) shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (imo: ministration of death) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (ministration of death) inherit incorruption.

but Paul saw himself here

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (imo, Paul was not considering himself as flesh and blood at this time)

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We (imo, all Israel/bretheren) shall not all sleep, but we (all Israel) shall all be changed, (old to new)

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (those cut off bretheren per Romans 11), and we (all Israel) shall be changed. (receiving be LIFE from the dead)

1Co 15:53  For this corruptible (minstration of death) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality (new spiritual covenant).

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible (ministration of death) shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (receiving of them be, LIFE from the Dead).  (out with the old, in with the new)

1Co 15:55  O death (minstration of death, old covenant), where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


So, imo; Paul was saying; we believers have been translated already into the kingdom, from death to life; and my bretheren (who are cut off) will be received and this will complete the end of the minstration of death, and the receiving of them, will mean LIFE for all. 


and Faith and hope were a part of the equation; as Paul "died daily" for service as a first fruit; waiting for the "end of the old" (harvest) when his fellow bretheren (old covenant Israel) would be received, and "Death is completely swallowed up in victory".  NO more old, in with the NEW.

[Taffy]

willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

Hi Bud
Nice to see about Bro :icon_flower:

Didnt respond to this a while back as I understand ya veiw point...having understood myself it this way for sometime, but you know how it goes..something start ya thinking, then something else gets added and so on..and its still happening


We touched on areas before , just kind a dropped a seed to see ya response on how you understand ..as im learning too



The  process -for mine-is Moving from DEATH to LiFE, Even while we live,  comin to understand this  surely aided in how I see the second Death and those who dwell ( in Hades\hell) as  whitewashed tombs, dead men walking ..by which I come to see that Eternal Life is NOW(=to KNOW HIM), as we dwell in this flesh type body and Immortality when we don our spiritual one


Again for mine below is how ive consolated certain scriptures, which youve brought up in ya posts

As one who has come to learn through patterns bro, theres a Pattern which shows Only God Justifys us BY THE words OF HIS MOUTH in SAYING we are PERFECT,as Christ states

Mat 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." 



ThE FOLLOWING patterns seem to  relate to the PERFECT MAN NOT OFFENDING IN word(tongue)by *****SAYING*****




1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and truth in not in us. :

BUT..

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

the patern is alos shown in Job bro...where God declares Job PERFECT three times , but by Jobs own Mouth he declares

Job 9:20***** If I ****justify ***myself - mine -own mouth- shall condemn me: ****IF I -SAY-, -I am perfect-,**** it shall also -prove me- perverse.

Now again with Paul...

Phl 3:12 Not that****** I have****** already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

but he does declare others before him as perfect...

Phl 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Seems James and Paul realised that the Tongue needed bridling

Jam 3:2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:[/u] lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Anyway bro...


To Put on Christ , that is Casting off corruption by PUTTING on Incorruption can be seen elsewhere ,speaks to me the same bro

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 

Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to [fulfill its] lusts.

al 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. 
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

So for me we have put ON HIS clothing, having moved from DEATH to life ..now

Jhn 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love [his] brother abides in death. 

The carnallity which enmity\hatred \hell\death swallowed UP in Life , no longer dwelling in that previous abode , NOW walking iN Love AND THE LIGHT of HIM in US=God

That death has been swallowed in LIFE..

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Christ  the Resurrection UNTO LIFE...

SO YEA Bro.. for mine I see it as a done thing. :icon_flower:

so for now bro..this is where im at with this...but still learning bro :HeartThrob:

[Zeek]

Hi T, good morning;

I think too, for me; it's realizing the "work" of believers; baptism for the dead.  Through them, mercy to all. 

Mat 20:23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

I see Paul as not so much looking inward and saying; I'm not "inwardly" done because "I still sin";

but yet "my work is still needed as I have a function as a first fruit, to bring in the harvest".

So as long as there was a "old and new covenant" side by side; his work was not done yet;  LIFE (for all) was not yet a reality,  and Death had not yet been swallowed up ", as the old still needed to vanish away. (it had vanished away among believers, but not yet for those stuck in old covenant mindset) 

Isa 51:6  Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be forever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


2Co 4:12  So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


make any sense?? 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother G...

Thanks for your answer bro... but in all honesty, I don't think you answered my questions...  :dunno:

I had a complete answer written to you and lost it... so here it is in a nutshell:

As I see it, ...PAUL and JOHN both noted FUTURE or time-related PROCESSING to their hearers... not one time events...

JOHN said:  "we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have no sin".   And: "if we CONFESS our SIN, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"... And: "If any man SIN, he has an advocate with the Father"

Why is all this necessary if SINLESSNESS (putting on CHRIST/changing from death to life) is really, a "DONE DEAL"?  :dontknow:

PAUL said... "at the LAST TRUMP" we would all be changed... if this is as you view it, then though the LAST TRUMP already is past, ...why do BELIEVING men continue to CHANGE?   Again, I see this as a PROCESS not a one time event... The LAST TRUMP ...ALREADY IS... in ETERNAL terms, but in finite (time oriented) TERMS, is yet to be manifest...

As I see it, DEATH (sinfulness) to LIFE (sinlessness) is a PROCESS... in which CHRIST is REVEALED from the inside out... over the period we call a LIFETIME... not some "poof" and everything is changed event...

It is also very interesting to me that PHYSICALLY we move from LIFE (birth) to DEATH, but SPIRITUALLY from DEATH to LIFE...

"Putting on CHRIST" is a PROCESS (IMO) not a one time event... the admonitions in the Scriptures you noted about this are recommendations of a PROCESS... being spoken to BELIEVERS... "Put on the whole Armor of God",  "Cast off the works of darkness"... are a PROCESSING, not "done deals"... for these to whom are being spoken to by Paul & John, ...are already BELIEVERS, already BAPTIZED, etc...

I know the Scripture says "If any man is IN CHRIST, behold, ALL THINGS are BECOME NEW"... but this is a PROCESS being spoken of "BECOMING" within the process of TIME, ...what ALREADY IS in ETERNITY... Otherwise we would be INSTANTLY transformed in EVERY WAY... which is NOT the case, and WHY we differ with one another even in this thread, ...despite the fact that we both in THIS present time, ...BELIEVE!

The POTTER molds the CLAY within a "TIME CONSUMING" effort, which is done stroke by stroke until it is COMPLETE... and (IMHO) ...for NO man, this is a "one time event"...

No more than a POT appears made by a POTTER instantaneously... It is stroked and MOLDED, then FIRED... then when all these things are found, DONE, it has then "become" a POT...

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[Zeek]

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

2Tim 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.

(living:  Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. )

dead:  (Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar)

Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"

Act 26:6-8 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?

Act 28:20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain."

Eze 37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Eze 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Eze 37:11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.


Eze 37:22  And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:


Eze 37:27  My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28  And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.




Jas 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

These believers understood that the kingdom did not come by observation

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Flesh and blood i.e., "the natural order" via the old covenat system with types and shadows, could not enter into the kingdom. 


1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

The first fruits were given eyes and ears to see (spiritual ears/eyes) that Christ's kingdom was spiritual and could only be entered via rebirth (spiritual). 


2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (natural); but the things which are not seen are eternal. (spiritual)

Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The resurrection of the dead was the manifestation of the long awaited promised deliverance of Israel.  This is a new covenantal reality.

"Judaizers wanted covenant change without regeneration, they wanted covenant renewal without losing their religious trappings of circumcision, law observance, earthly city, temple, priesthood and sacrificial system etc. These were all vested interests and vestiges of the "old world" that Jesus prophesied [Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17, 21] were coming to and end. Had these Mosaic remnants remained AND the resurrection being past THEN clearly Paul's eschatological "dying and rising" in Christ as per Romans 6 was complete, yet this cuts right across Paul's "being raised" in resurrection life in that eschatological and transitional generation, something that he writes in 1Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3 as being present tense realities – thus fullness HAD NOT come; such would only be the case with the Parousia.

What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age. And those ones believing and surviving to the end [Mt 24:13] was this assurance given:"

1Pet 1:5 ...who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



http://www.pantelism.com/RaptureRuptureorResurrection.htm



For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:



Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.


Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

[Sarah]

Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

[Zeek]

Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

Hi Sarah,

I hear ya, I lean toward resurrection, being Israel's resurrection; from the dead (ministration of death), but I still ponder it all.   :grin:

One thing I am sure of though

In HIM we move, live and have our being.

Blessings

Z

[willieH]

willieH: Howdy... Z  :eek:

For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

This doesn't fly for me either brother Z...

You AND the Scriptures you use, employ TIME-oriented terms...  And coupled with CHRIST noting that He came NOT to destroy the Law and Prophets which was the Old Covenant, ...but to FULFILL... Fulfilling is a PROCESS, and IMO... that which is engaged in each of us... and that FULFILLING is a continuing set of events... otherwise you have no FURTHER inspiration to gain of Scripture, nor will you be further molded by the POTTER...

Which places you in a position of being either ...already PERFECT or potentially mistaken...   :dunno:

Sorry brudda, ...datshowsIseesit...  :thumbsup:

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[Zeek]

willieH: Howdy... Z  :eek:

For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

This doesn't fly for me either brother Z...

You AND the Scriptures you use, employ TIME-oriented terms...  And coupled with CHRIST noting that He came NOT to destroy the Law and Prophets which was the Old Covenant, ...but to FULFILL... Fulfilling is a PROCESS, and IMO... that which is engaged in each of us... and that FULFILLING is a continuing set of events... otherwise you have no FURTHER inspiration to gain of Scripture, nor will you be further molded by the POTTER...

Which places you in a position of being either ...already PERFECT or potentially mistaken...   :dunno:

Sorry brudda, ...datshowsIseesit...  :thumbsup:

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Covenental change opens the doors to an never ending journey.

Love knows no bounds my friend.

You make me smile every time I see Z  :eek:

zeek is my son's nick name.  "zeekarooney"  :grin:


The journey into the depths of LOVE is amazing. 

Hope fulfilled is a TREE of LIFE. 

[Taffy]

willieH: Hi brother G...

Thanks for your answer bro... but in all honesty, I don't think you answered my questions...  :dunno:

I had a complete answer written to you and lost it... so here it is in a nutshell:

As I see it, ...PAUL and JOHN both noted FUTURE or time-related PROCESSING to their hearers... not one time events...

JOHN said:  "we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have no sin".   And: "if we CONFESS our SIN, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"... And: "If any man SIN, he has an advocate with the Father"

Why is all this necessary if SINLESSNESS (putting on CHRIST/changing from death to life) is really, a "DONE DEAL"?  :dontknow:

PAUL said... "at the LAST TRUMP" we would all be changed... if this is as you view it, then though the LAST TRUMP already is past, ...why do BELIEVING men continue to CHANGE?   Again, I see this as a PROCESS not a one time event... The LAST TRUMP ...ALREADY IS... in ETERNAL terms, but in finite (time oriented) TERMS, is yet to be manifest...

As I see it, DEATH (sinfulness) to LIFE (sinlessness) is a PROCESS... in which CHRIST is REVEALED from the inside out... over the period we call a LIFETIME... not some "poof" and everything is changed event...

It is also very interesting to me that PHYSICALLY we move from LIFE (birth) to DEATH, but SPIRITUALLY from DEATH to LIFE...

"Putting on CHRIST" is a PROCESS (IMO) not a one time event... the admonitions in the Scriptures you noted about this are recommendations of a PROCESS... being spoken to BELIEVERS... "Put on the whole Armor of God",  "Cast off the works of darkness"... are a PROCESSING, not "done deals"... for these to whom are being spoken to by Paul & John, ...are already BELIEVERS, already BAPTIZED, etc...

I know the Scripture says "If any man is IN CHRIST, behold, ALL THINGS are BECOME NEW"... but this is a PROCESS being spoken of "BECOMING" within the process of TIME, ...what ALREADY IS in ETERNITY... Otherwise we would be INSTANTLY transformed in EVERY WAY... which is NOT the case, and WHY we differ with one another even in this thread, ...despite the fact that we both in THIS present time, ...BELIEVE!

The POTTER molds the CLAY within a "TIME CONSUMING" effort, which is done stroke by stroke until it is COMPLETE... and (IMHO) ...for NO man, this is a "one time event"...

No more than a POT appears made by a POTTER instantaneously... It is stroked and MOLDED, then FIRED... then when all these things are found, DONE, it has then "become" a POT...

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Hi Brud., :icon_flower:

Not Unlike Zeek, I kinda veiw the scripts very much for the folk of their day ,ie moving from one Covenant to another..

Folk being very much conditioned by such previous bondage...ushered into a New Understanding...

Therefore moving from the DEATH of being UNDER the Old , to being made ALIVE in HIM being the New..., PERFECT in the sence of being made  WHOLE\Complete in HIM...US in HIM , Him In Us...

For one minute im not saying , each of us are not growing in HIM, but tht process could be a Moment or 50 yrs considering how long we remain in there fleshy bodies..which kinda brings me to the Theif on the cross..along with those those who toiled in the HEAT of the day but recieved the Same reward who entered later.......

Any ways Brudder tis where Im at for now.... :icon_flower:


And good to see you back posting more frequently Bud....These Grand children can sure eat in to ya time...Got our first Due in June,..just hoping im about to see the young one.... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:.

[gregoryfl]

The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron