The "second death" what exactly is it?

[Chris]

Depends how YOU define a liar  :grin: Isnt a liar (according to him) one who is found adding to His words? and the other is one who SAYS they love GOD and hates their brother?

Asking ya to do somethin for me because your better at it then me is being a liar?  Sheesh  :grin:  

WEll, if ya want to get all TECHNICAL about it.  :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Chris]

the more I think about it, I think this might be "first death",

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:



and

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;(second death) but is passed from death unto life.


but if we hold the truth in unrighteousness, wrath awaits us (second death)

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

and they would be twice dead.  



I think Chrissie this is the same thing u were saying re: those who continue to sleep??


1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yep, I think so.  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

Thought about something Zeek posted concerning His wrath.

I can get pretty angry.   :laughing7:

[Chris]

Thought about something Zeek posted concerning His wrath.

I can get pretty angry.   :laughing7:

:mrflo: :laugh: :rolllol: :LH: :pointlaugh: :laughhand:

[Chris]

Dont you have a job to do?  :laughing7:

What? Don't you think I can MULTI-TASK??  :happygrin:

Can't you READ AND WRITE all at the same time???  :laughing7:


:msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed:

[Chris]

Dont post, I'm sending you more I forgot  :grin:

What? You think I can multi-task now??? I'm still READING!!!   :mrflo:

OK, GOT IT..... going to read IT... now.  :winkgrin:

[Zeek]

"the "first death" I think is analogous with Adam and "being kicked out" of the garden,

Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

in which there was hope for restoration

Gen 3:15  and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

and later typified through Israel's exile to Babylon and there hope for the annointed one to restore their priesthood.

The law revealed sin and their "death became more clear"

Rom 3:20  because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:10  and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death:

Rom 7:11  for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

Jesus being the last Adam, was the hope for Israel; and rejection of him; led to second death; Those who held onto the law for righteousness, died in their sins.  Their house came crashing down.   

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!



 

[rosered]

  Adam was not  complete [perfect]  in Adam all die/dead  [death]

  Image of a man / beast  Adam

Adam  was a type of king of the earth [ God gave him dominion/authority  /rule  over the earth ]  first death [wounded healed] second death cannot hurt  no harm  no longer   mortal  they are spiritual creatures in Christ

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

   the thing is lambs /sheep   these beasts  are compared to belonging to Christ /God  but spoke as a   red dragon beast /adversary

   Adam = "the red earth"

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us


the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World .. . . 
  a lamb is a gentle beast  innocent that was an attonment sacrifice
  and    are  also followers of Christ [ you are to  be like your  Master/teacher ]

you have to read all of Rev 13  to see it better  than this little bit here though
  Kim  showed me this  tonight and it got me to thinking  wow! she is on to somthing with the Lambs/sheep


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  



  In Christ  [perfect] complete

  this is not clear at all , but maybe someon can help  me out here if they see anything at all  :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Hey Zeek,

But they are already "dead" in their sins, right? And what about being "twice dead"?  :grin:

Dead after the FLESH and Dead after the Spirit :icon_flower:

Twice dead, plucked up by the roots.... Is that the flesh or the spirit?  :happy3:

I sort of see it connected to those who sleep in Christ. If one died for all then were ALL DEAD.... but even now (after having been reconciled to God through Christ by being baptized into THE SECOND DEATH (the death of Christ) :winkgrin: ) some STILL SLEEP.... being twice dead???  :mshock:

Tell me what you see, as it relates to the flesh and the spirit??   :ty:

Hi Chris :icon_flower:
If Im reading aright :HeartThrob:

Just my Wording sis, not the best at the Best of times....same thing I think


Twice dead, plucked up by the roots.... Is that the flesh or the spirit?  :happy3:

I sort of see it connected to those who sleep in Christ. If one died for all then were ALL DEAD.( still alseep, Dead to Him Dead in the FLESH)... but even now (after having been reconciled to God through Christ by being baptized into THE SECOND DEATH (the death of Christ) :winkgrin: ) some STILL SLEEP.( Dead to the spirit))... being twice

dead???  :mshock:

[Taffy]

  Adam was not  complete [perfect]  in Adam all die/dead  [death]

  Image of a man / beast  Adam

Adam  was a type of king of the earth [ God gave him dominion/authority  /rule  over the earth ]  first death [wounded healed] second death cannot hurt  no harm  no longer   mortal  they are spiritual creatures in Christ

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

   the thing is lambs /sheep   these beasts  are compared to belonging to Christ /God  but spoke as a   red dragon beast /adversary

   Adam = "the red earth"

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us


the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World .. . . 
  a lamb is a gentle beast  innocent that was an attonment sacrifice
  and    are  also followers of Christ [ you are to  be like your  Master/teacher ]

you have to read all of Rev 13  to see it better  than this little bit here though
  Kim  showed me this  tonight and it got me to thinking  wow! she is on to somthing with the Lambs/sheep


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  



  In Christ  [perfect] complete

  this is not clear at all , but maybe someon can help  me out here if they see anything at all  :HeartThrob:

:HeartThrob:

[Zeek]

.....Image of a man / beast  Adam

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



Hi T, or anyone;

this might be a little off topic, but it is clear that death by sin (imo, first death) spread to all men.  But the scripture sounds like not all of us are/were "in Adam", since some didn't sin after the similtude of him. 

??  any ideas how one doesn't sin after the similtude of Adam's transgression??

[Zeek]

I'm thinking possible it has to do with whether one is deceived or not??

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

??

[Molly]

There are better pictures than this--

But did you all see the pictures of the US Air passengers

walking on water?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/16/f-bird-strikes.html

This is the second crash in a row where all were saved--first by fire (colorado) then by water (NY).

[rosered]

   Fire Wrote ;

Wounded is a "hurt" of some sort...."Tormented" (as shown in lake of fire) can even be grievous pains (which can be of mind) or to be VEXED, it speaks of Lot "VEXED" as it pertains to the filthy "CONVERSATION". We have SPAKE like a dragon (because the Serpent, devil that deceived them) IS that old dragon.  He SPAKE CONTRARY to God = LIAR even "Lying divination = which did say "The Lord saith when He hath not spoken". Sorta appearing as a Lamb but speaks like a dragon = liar?

  This part Here sis , I would love to focus  on ,
    when we go out to Broad i loose sight   lol..  love the details  remember that lol   they are clues  , i miss when  breezing though
  I have to do these in parts  and let them sink down deep into my ears [ and heart]  and not rush it though
  I may not get any revelations , but I was so blessed by our conversation and than  went on the reading Daniel   wow , that was enlightning

  it seems to me that  Daniel was  not ''hurt''   by the lions mouth
  all are young lions [teeth/ to tear ]

  and the 3 young menand the 4th was SEEN in the Fire  the Son of God   were not ''hurt''  by the Fire [burned or smoke effected/passed  them] 
  all were gathered into  one place to see this , their coats not changed  what has that to do with  dwelling in the Fire ?
   see what I mean  , that is a mystery  in its self  and the smell  of the smoke passing ?  what is this ?  the smoke  has something to do with  a stench in Gods nostrils , they passed this test  it seems

  Dan 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

   so death  did not harm  Daniel nor the 3 young men  by the  2 ways of  death ,  roaring lions  mouth and  Fire

  no harm    they worrshiped the Most High God

of all the gods  in the old testament and the  error  of serving all them gods [elohiym], the  Focus  is on the MOST HIGH GOD


Strong's H430 - 'elohiym אלהים
Transliteration
'elohiym
Pronunciation

el·o·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

plural of H433

TWOT Reference
93c


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God
  here is the kicker to me  seeing that  the serpent was tempting/testing/ proving /trying     the woman

  Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

  the deception  is this to me  , that no matter how much  anyone thinks they have  LIFE and  power ,glory.  fame  pride , control  over their lives and others lives  by their  own  minds / hearts   being little mini gods  , the above description   to see this exercising  good and evil judgments   to rule and reign
  they  come to the place of death / failure and an end
  when I read King Nebs  pride  reaching  the fulness / brim  he had to 
drink the cup  of the wrath of God  in order to be humbled from pride  , he was judged for his words  and thinking  and  the kingdom was taken from him  till he realized the  the Most HIGH GOD  was in control  over all kingdoms  GOD regins supreme 
  I saw  that His kingdom  was a tree / the knowledge of good and evil 
that TREE  , till He was given  death and Life  from God  to continue after his   judgment/ sentance  was given 7 times passing over him

  the 7 vials of the wrath of God  completed   King Neb was  a king of the earth / Babylon
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.


Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

      King Neb  could not see   Gods  kingdom  and rule / reign for the Smoke [pride of life]  till   the end  finished completed

   This is the small part  of the hurt sis , and it is not   presented very well lol
  but I just keep on trying any ways  :mblush: lol


:HeartThrob:
 

[rosered]

They were proved it appears, Chris has my study concerning them in the fire and Him appearing unto them, the STING of death IS Sin Christ comes WITHOUT SIN. He said INNOCENCY was found IN THEM (they did NO HARM) just as we are called to be BLAMELESS sons of God in a perverse generation. The power of the FIRE had no power over THEM, they had NO HURT (there was NO STING) It speaks of the Second death NOT HURTING overcomers and its through faith we overcome, a third part is brought through the fire? If there were three of them what were they of if not the third of what? He said they DID no harm either, it speaks in revelation of those who wanted to harm His witnesses that a fire would proceed from THEIR MOUTH and they would need to be killed in that manner or something, and we see in the picture a FLAME OF FIRE come out and SLEW the men who took the three up and cast them into the fire. Seems like manner in many respects.

Just interesting connections there

  ah sis you see  it too !  :thumbsup:
look at this too, they were saints/ holy ones! innocent  and put to death . but  did not die ! no harm  come to them !   they had died once  to sin /law and we alive to God for ever more ...
and the second death  power of men   could not harm them  ..

  the saints are to judge  angels and men .. by decree  of watchers / angels of God messengers   and the holy ones /saints  by Gods WORD    see Jesus in this !  :HeartThrob:



Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
  I think this is why Jesus tells us to look  to the prophet Daniel [books] for this Wisdom and understanding  from above  :icon_flower: so Revelation/ unveiling  fits    :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the '' seeing it right '' perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

[Taffy]

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the " seeing it right " perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

Yes Rose , its looks that way :icon_flower:

[rosered]

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the " seeing it right " perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

Yes Rose , its looks that way :icon_flower:

  Cute  :icon_jokercolor:   Bro G , and witty in a corny sort of way LOL , made me chuckle  this morning 
''Looks''  can be deceiving  hee hee . :thumbsup:

  I understand  be humbled in that way can sure change your mind about things 
it is all about Praising God and glorifing  Him and not ourselves and each other
  it is the Most High God `illay (Aramaic) supreme  'elahh (Aramaic) 1) god, God

a) god, heathen deity

b) God (of Israel)

  this is what I find also amazing , these two words combined
  apparently there was soooooo  much  idol  worship in the days of babylon   in the book of Daniel   can you imagine this much confusion bro
  and we still do as of today with all the differnt religious  sects  still going on after having the New Testament! Witness
  this  is hard to fathom and understand , but the Lord did say it would 
get worse and worse
  thank God for His grace  in every way
  not saying I have it all figured out  and am an expert on  who is God lol
  but   since the Lord took me from so many  teachers and preachers , those  sitting in the high places ,
  to just the Holy Spirit and made it more personal  of an experience
  I have a new found peace and joy in the Lord that surpasses anything I have ever known before
  for this alone i am  so much more than grateful , I am  praising His Holy name now and more settled  and confident in His  love  and Will for us all !  :HeartThrob:

[Shadowland]

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

[Zeek]

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

[Zeek]

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi ...ZZZZZZZZZ :eek:

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

These 2 seemed to think that SIN continued in their experience:

Rom 8:25  I thank God through JESUS CHRIST our Lord.  So THEN with the MIND I myself serve the LAW of GOD, ...BUT... with the FLESH, the LAW of SIN.

Paul, at the time of this writing was definitely CONVERTED and had REPENTED, for they are contained in this context...

1 John 1:8  If we SAY we have NO SIN, we ...DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...IN us.

John, an original APOSTLE notes that SIN remains... and teaches confession for it... to the BELIEVERS (of converted/repentent children)... to whom he writes...

Personally, (though I could be wrong), :JCThink: I believe we are ALL YET to be "born again"... 

To date, ...I have seen no convincing arguments presented that PROVE any man is "BORN AGAIN" while in this life.  :dontknow:

In this life we DO find conversion, and repentence... but it appears according to Paul & John, that even though we are CONVERTED and REPENTENT, that SIN remains a factor within our individual circumstances...

It is within the process of LIFE, we submit unto God...  :dontknow:

Does anyone think he/she is NOW SINLESS?  And shall remain SINLESS for the balance of his/her life?  :mshock:

As I see it... that would be a PRIDEFUL stance to take... which means the "SIN of PRIDE" is occuring within such a declaration...  :sigh:

Only the PERFECT JUDGMENT of GOD can note whether a SIN-LESS condition exists, and certainly IS a determination which can only be truly made by One which is PERFECT and SIN-LESS...

NOT... an observation somehow deduced by IMPERFECT beings such as ourselves, ...OF OURSELVES...  :dontknow:

We confess the sins WE [obviously] KNOW, but there are surely others which pass from our view of ourselves... that only GOD sees...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

When I come into all things are passed away, I see this as my old way of thinking.  My old way of diciphering, my old way of reasoning . . .it's all been transformed . . ."behold, I will make all things new"  he didn't say he'll make all new things . . . but he'll make all things new.  I still think . . .God hasn't removed my thinking . . .he's just renewed "how" I think.

We've conversed on other threads about the idea of dimensions.  Natural, moral/corporate, and spiritual.  When we come into Christ, our objective changes from living in the natural . .where we primarily are living in a "reactive" mode.  Which is to say, by the time "I" respond to something, the damage is already done.  I'm just reacting and responding after the fact. 

But when I leave the natural for the spiritual, it's no longer reactive, but "pro" active.  We look for the end from the beginning and when in the spirit, this becomes accessable and we can then "call out" that which isn't as though it is. . .which is faith . . .and we can avert the pitfalls that we'd otherwise become entangled with prior to coming into Christ.

For me, sin is the same way.  when I'm walking in the natural reasoning mind, it's easy to see there is much sin in me, even though I claim to be a follower of Christ . . .who, by the way, is what?  Is he not a "spirit"?  So when I let him transform me and I begin pursuing spiritual things, my natural perspectives transform right along with that.  When I am "in Christ" I am in the Light . .where there is NO DARKNESS. 

But for me to be in Christ, I must be in the spirit . . .because physically, right now, I'm not in Christ, I'm in a cubical in front of a computer screen.  But spiritually, I've left the building.  So, in one realm, yeah, there is sin in me, but in another . . .I can not sin . .so which realm would you choose then to pursue?  Is this ignoring my failures?  Of course not.  I'm well aware they are there, but if Christ is my completion, fulfillment and perfection, why would I then emphasize and dwell on my incompleteness, shortcomings, and failures?

If Christ has made me a king and a priest . .that is where I want to walk.  So in the natural, yeah, there are imperfections in my life.  But in the spirit, I am born again, I am renewed, redeemed and reconciled back to the Father.  It's all in what dimension you choose to walk in.

[YoungYuni]

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

Hiya,

You continue to sin? 

1 John 3:6
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

:eeew:

[sven]

i think it's literal death, if the last enemy to be abolished is second death then second death can't mean anything good, if we claim the second death has anything positive about, we would condradict ourselves when whe say the last enemy is second death.

i think people think too less about the white throne judgement and too much about second death or the lake of fire, i share A.E. Knoch's view here - it makes the most sense and sounds most biblical.