The "second death" what exactly is it?

[crowbar]

I think the deaths pertain to differnent things.  There is the spiritually dead who live according to their flesh . . .and in the end, experience the lake of fire to kill or purge that flesh from the control of their dorment spirit (God's nature in all of us is spirit).  So when we are born in the flesh through Adam, we are alive in flesh, but dead in spirit.  As Jesus stated to the disciple that used the excuse to bury his parents for not following Christ . . "Let the dead bury the dead".  You have spiritually dead burying physically dead.

So if you live this life apart from Christ, you are spiritually dead already.  As Taf mentioned, the lake of fire then brings death to that spiritual deadness in you . . .which means it causes a resurrection of your spirit within . . .as death in you is dead.  Life brings death to death.

Those that do have the honor and priviledge to accept Christ no longer are dead spiritually, but yet, they still die, it's just "carnally" that they die.  Being alive in Christ and dead to carnality isn't easy either.  There are all kinds of carnal things around us trying to jump start that which we've already given over to Christ.  There is still a pulling power from without, but greater is he that is within.

This isn't a black and white question that can be answered in such manner.  There are really three deaths in the mix.  Physical death, carnal death and spiritual death.  When you can dicipher between the three, you can also see which one fits where in Scripture

Three deaths? I heard of TWICEdead but not THRICEdead :grin:

FINALLY!!  I'm back on again!

I really wanted to respond to this because I'm not sure how the math came to three deaths . .but that's not what I was trying to convey.  Frankly, I think ever man experiences two deaths.  The difference is . . .which death is voluntary and which isn't.  And I do think there are those who are spiritually dead due to the fact Jesus refers to "letting the dead bury the dead."  The born-again experience is a resurrection of my spirit from . . .beneath my flesh.  Before Christ, there was no consciousness that my spirit even existed.  Everything I viewed, was through the eyes of my soul . . .my mind.  It's the old "tree of knowledge, tree of life" scenerio.

It's either or.  But then when Christ comes in to the picture, the flesh then takes a backseat to the spirit.  Life over knowledge.  The problems begin to form when I look at life through the lens of both flesh and spirit . . .thus, one must die . .and in Chirst, I'm dead to my flesh . .thus, the first death here is voluntary.  My natural death . .physical . . .would then be my second death . .but because I elected to carnally die before physcial death . .there is no need for the lake of fire to bring me to my second death . . .it's already been accomplished through the blood of the Lamb when I voluntarily died the first time.

Now, if one doesn't elect to die to the flesh, there is no resurrection of the spirit . . .and when they physcially die, that isn't their second death, but their first.  The second then comes at the lake of fire which then affects the carnality of man . . .the second death.

Just where I am today.

[Tony N]

I know I would be on different pages too, but my views on the second death.

[Rev 20:6]
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The meaning of resurrection should come together with the death, and they are one.
Spiritually dead man should die (the second death=lake of fire) on the cross with Jesus
in order to be reborn (the first resurrection) as a new man.

Then, he is blessed and holy man, being the spiritual priest of God and of Christ.
The second death will have no power over him, because he already went through it
during the first resurrection.

Therefore, 'the second death' is the first resurrection,
being the death of our old man on the cross with Christ.
In other words, we have to go through the lake of fire (the second death)
in order to be born again.

70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ. Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.

[Zeek]

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


the rains beat against the "house", but notice the house was built first then the rains beat upon the house.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:


Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

[Zeek]

Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

[Taffy]

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


the rains beat against the "house", but notice the house was built first then the rains beat upon the house.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:


Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

First the natural then the spiritual :icon_flower:

[CHB]

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

If you look at the above quote it would seem that the first death is in Adam, the second death is to be dead in Christ. You know..first Adam, second Adam...two deaths...dead in both Adams. I hope this makes sense.  :grin:

(2Cor.5:14) "if one died for all then were all dead".  (Rev. 14:13 "BLESSED are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".

I use to think that these that were dead in the Lord would not be hurt of the second death. These had already went through the fire.

Willie explained the second death to me a while back, I guess I need to go back and re-read it.

I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this subject.  :mblush:

CHB 

[70sevens]

Thank you for attention Tony N,

Quote from Tony N--------------------------
70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means
they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.
-----------------------------------------------

1.
Yes, we are on different pages.
For example, I am on page 'now here',
but you are on page '1000 years later'

I, as a dead man, want resurrection now here eagerly,
so that I may live Jesus life for the rest of my life.
I guess we should not defer this resurrection to the indefinite future.

2.
Yes, the one who is in the second death, he is not yet in the book of life.
But, when he complete it, he is eligible to the new earth.


Blessings,

[gregoryfl]

Hello guys,

Very interesting subject indeed. I just wanted to toss out some thoughts that I wrote about this a while back:

Concerning the nature of this fire, I just want to share some scripture that I see showing the physical type and spiritual reality. See how different this fire is than what most have come to believe:

Dan 3:24,25 Then Nebukadnetstar the male-authority-that-guides-the-people heard them singing hymns and was astonished, and rose up in haste: he spoke and said to his counselors, Didn't we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered the male-authority-that-guides-the-people, True, O male-authority-that-guides-the-people. He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a male-house-seed of the strongest-yoked-guide.


Dan 3:27 The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the male-authority-that-guides-the-people's counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.


Now compare this physical type with the spiritual reality:

Rev 2:11 He who overcomes won't be harmed by the second emptied-stomach.


Rev 20:6Knelt-down-and-given-to and separated is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second emptied-stomach has no power,

Notice the similarity. Also notice that those who God's favor was on went through a fire. They were not spared from it. Likewise, we are not spared from the second death, the lake of fire, that which is spoken of as to the horizon. We will not be harmed by it nor will it have power over us. Isaiah also spoke about us who actually dwell in such a place when he wrote:

Isa 33:14-15 The ones who miss-the-target in Tsiyon are afraid. Trembling has seized the polluted ones. Who among us can fill-the-stomach with the devouring fire? Who among us can fill-the-stomach with horizonal burning? He who walks in a straight-pathed way, and speaks blamelessly; He who despises the gain of oppressions, who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from looking at dysfunction; he will dwell on high. His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks. His bread will be supplied. His waters will be sure.

This fire is said to be kindled by the breath of God himself, where the prophet says:

Isa 33:11 You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your wind is a fire that will devour you

I believe this is the fire spoken of by Paul, as that which everyone goes through, either suffering loss, or receiving reward, based on building with wood, hay, and stubble, or gold, silver, and precious stones.

I do not believe that the lake of fire is this evil place where wickedness lives in torment forever. It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

[Zeek]

It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

[gregoryfl]

It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

The only one's hurt by it are those who suffer loss from the process of purifying, or purging. Those who build with good materials, as Paul said, do not suffer in that way, because what they have doesn't burn up. They still go through the fire though, so I would answer no, I would not wish for anyone to have to be hurt by it, if they didn't have to.

Ron

[Zeek]

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Rom 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:14  Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. [/b]

Gen 7:21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. [/b]


Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?

Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

[Zeek]

It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

The only one's hurt by it are those who suffer loss from the process of purifying, or purging. Those who build with good materials, as Paul said, do not suffer in that way, because what they have doesn't burn up. They still go through the fire though, so I would answer no, I would not wish for anyone to have to be hurt by it, if they didn't have to.

Ron

cool,

some here see the LOF as the agent for purifying all men.  if that is the case, then all would need to be hurt by it.

blessings

[peacemaker]

"The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."  :grave:

peacemaker

[Tony N]

Thank you for attention Tony N,

Quote from Tony N--------------------------
70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means
they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.
-----------------------------------------------

1.
Yes, we are on different pages.
For example, I am on page 'now here',
but you are on page '1000 years later'

I, as a dead man, want resurrection now here eagerly,
so that I may live Jesus life for the rest of my life.
I guess we should not defer this resurrection to the indefinite future.

2.
Yes, the one who is in the second death, he is not yet in the book of life.
But, when he complete it, he is eligible to the new earth.


Blessings,

But that is not what the Bible says.
Those not in the book of life will not see the new earth.
Paul says the only time with those people come out of the second death is:

• Christ quits reigning
• all sovereignty, all authority and power nullified
• all enemies that keep mankind from being subjected placed under His feet
• the LAST enemy,  death, abolished

1Co 15:24-26  thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.

In Revelation Christ is still reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power not nullified, all enemies such as death not abolished.

So until those things come to pass those not in the book of life will not experience life until the things Paul lists come to pass.

[70sevens]

• Christ quits reigning
• all sovereignty, all authority and power nullified
• all enemies that keep mankind from being subjected placed under His feet
• the LAST enemy,  death, abolished

1Co 15:24-26  thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.

In Revelation Christ is still reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power not nullified, all enemies such as death not abolished.

So until those things come to pass those not in the book of life will not experience life until the things Paul lists come to pass.

All the sayings above in the Scriptures are signs.
And you are mentioning only about the signs themselves.

We should understand what those signs really mean.


Merry Christmas !

[pneuma]

Everyone experiences the second death but not everyone is hurt of it, for we read in Isaiah 33:14-15

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Who is it that shall DWELL with the DEVOURING FIRE and EVERLASTING BURNINGS?

He that walketh in RIGHTIOUSNESS

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;


No one can really say what the lake of fire is, there are many different views on it, but we are all agreed on one point, that it is a judgement in order to correct us and burn up all our dross.

My view in short goes something like this.

The second death is called the LAKE OF FIRE, in any lake you will find RIVERS flowing to and from it and one of the rivers imo that speaks of this lake is the LAW (those written in stone, not the 600+ laws Moses wrote)

The LAW is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.2Co.3:7 & Gal.3:24

This is exactly what the second death (lake of fire) does.

Another river is Gods ministers.

Hebrews 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

These ministers are those who have the fire shut up in their bones and by that ministration of that fire within them their preaching causes TORMENT to all that hear them.

As is seen in Rev.11:10, the two witnesses TORMENTED all that dwell upon the earth.

This TORMENT is the SAME TORMENT spoken of in Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Their very PRESENCE because of the fire and brimstone within them causes the TORMENT and this is seen when the devils cried out to Jesus art thou come to TORMENT us before the time?Mt.8:29

In every case above the word TORMENT is

928 basanizo { bas-an-id'-zo}

from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v

AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

GK - 989 { basanivzw }

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Strong's Enhanced Lexicon.

Thus He sits in judgement as a refiner to purify all the sons of Levi (all those UNDER the LAW)

Malachi 3:1-3

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

[willieH]

Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[willieH]

"The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."  :grave:

peacemaker

The "DEATH" of DEATH, ...is ...ETERNAL LIFE...  :dontknow:

For when LIFE is become in an ETERNAL state... DEATH has given way to it  ETERNALLY...

The 2nd DEATH has to do with LIARS, WHOREMONGERS, IDOLATORS, UNBELIEVERS, etc., ...which includes ALL MEN...  These are a list of SINFUL behaviors... (Rev 21:8)

That DEATH is realized in THIS LIFE, by men from the 1st day unto the last day.

JESUS died to save us ALL from the FIRST (spiritual) "DEATH", which we all "die" into UNBELIEF... (and in resurrection) bringing us back to life IN that RESURRECTION... for HE IS the RESURRECTION and the LIFE...

We experience the 2nd DEATH ourselves...  :sigh:

Those who die the 2nd Death "In CHRIST" are raised in the Garment of CHRIST which covers their sin...

Those who die the 2nd Death In SIN, are raised in the SHAME of that SIN... (Rev 3:18) :yes:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[bobf]

Normally people die a first death. That death is unconscious death.
Why should the second death be any different?

Is the second day any different from the first?
Is the second watch different from the first?
Mar 14:72 "And, straightway, a second time, a cock crows." Was the second crowing any different than the first crowing?

- Was the second Adam any different than the first Adam?
- Can death be cast into itself?

If the LOF = the second death = second physical death then

"death...was cast into the lake of fire"
means "death...was cast into the second death"
means "death...was cast into a second rendition of the first death"
means "physical death...was cast into itself"
which doesn't make much sense.

This verse says that the [1] dead must [2] die in the Lord in order to rest from their works.

• Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Interestingly, dying in the Lord takes that dead peson and makes him alive.  That fits the metaphor of death and hades being cast into fire to be consumed.

I don't believe that either the first death or the second death refer to physical death.

[bobf]

some here see the LOF as the agent for purifying all men.  if that is the case, then all would need to be hurt by it.

Yes, because the person who enters God's judgment IS HURT by it, but once that person is humbled and returns to God and puts is trust in God to save him from within that judgment he is NOT HURT by it any more.

Here a person being HURT by God's wrath.

• Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath. 2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light. 3 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day. 4 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones. 5 He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail. 6 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old. 7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy. 8 Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer. 9 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked. 10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places. 11 He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate. 12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow. 13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins. 14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day. 15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood. 16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes. 17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity. 18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD.

Here is the same person being NOT HURT by that same wrath of God.

• Lamentations 3:19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. 20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. 21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. 24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. 25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. :28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him. 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope. 30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach. 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. 34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

There was a change in attitude.  He was humbled.  He recalled God's mercy.  His hope came back.  He willingly accepted judgment.  He turns his cheek to the smiter God.  He says it is good to bear the yoke of his sins.  He patiently waits for salvation.

[Zeek]

Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Ok, here's how I see this, in scripture; hopefully by not interjecting my own ad lib it will speak to u the same way it has to me:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life,

1Jn 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jn 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life[/b]: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 5:21  Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, [/b] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Zeek]

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


faithful to the end or fallen from grace.

new covenant vs

world: old covenant.

[Nathan]

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I copied and pasted that one from Zeek's previous post . . it kind of jumped out at me there.  Many of the arguments (debates) that I get into seem to be due to the idea that some embrace the "literal" interpretation of Scripture rather than the spiritual . .yes??  Does this passage not sort of nail the coffin down pretty much on the idea that "if" you don't read it spiritually that it's missing the mark?  Or would this be considered twisting Scripture to fit one's opinions.  I get accused of that from time to time as well.

[peacemaker]

Hello Willie, truly, enjoy reading your written words.

Those who die the 2nd Death In SIN, are raised in the SHAME of that SIN... (Rev 3:18)   

Second death in Sin?

I didn't think lightning could strike in the same place twice. And had a disagreement with the insurance company, after the house got hit a few years ago. They argued that the fire insurance premium should go up, at least 10% - but in fact, it should go down - since we were not likely to get hit, again – the second death!

There is no thought in the "grave." Thus, "having the experience of dying to our sinful nature, and overcoming is now; later with the weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This was the reasoning behind, "The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."

But, "I'm open to the thoughts of the living; the life in/of Christ."

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Ok, here's how I see this, in scripture; hopefully by not interjecting my own ad lib it will speak to u the same way it has to me:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life,

1Jn 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jn 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life[/b]: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 5:21  Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, [/b] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Dearest brother Zeek...

This was a beautiful set of Scriptures in which much love and wisdom can be found, HOWEVER...

This does not answer the QUESTION which you first asked me, and then I, (inconveniently) ponged it back to YOU... which was:

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

If Scripture says SIN brings forth DEATH, how can any SIN, ...NOT... be unto DEATH?  :mshock:

That is like saying This "DEADLY POISON" is not "LIFE THREATENING"...  :dontknow:

Try again if you would be so kind, and this time, ...maybe make some connecting comments or phrases to your Scriptural quotes... as to what you are seeing in them... and HOW they ANSWER the QUESTION!  :dontknow:

I honestly got a little wearied (not by the GOOD WORD), but became wearied  :heat: in reading so many verses while trying to "see" what you are "seeing" in them...  :help:

And btw... this still does not ESTABLISH that any man, ...will "NEVER" DIE... for Scripture notes that: "ALL MEN are APPOINTED once to DIE" (Heb 9:27)... which promptly removes the word NEVER from our experience concerning DEATH.

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower: