Tentmaker Forum

It is amazing to me, since I have recently come to accept UR, how Scripture begins making much more sense. One of the questions I have is about the "second death". Here is what I think I know and I am open for correction.

Christ's death and atonement was for all mankind. Though we were yet enemies He reconciled us to God. His Blood and death on our behalf is what reconciles us to God. However... unless we go through Roman's 6, meaning enter into His death, burial and resurrection through our believing and faith, we are not in Him, meaning raised up with Him (abide in Me and I abide in you).

Those who do not believe or those who die without receiving Him will enter into the second death. As I am understanding it, since they did not receive Him, although they were reconciled with God already, they are not yet raised up with Him. I believe this is where the Lake of Fire enters in the picture as a purifying agent of God's all consuming love. Am I at least on the right track? We who believe have no part in the second death because we are already raised up with Him?


TS

Dear Texas Son
Thanks for your post.
Concerning the reconciliation please note the verses below:

Col 1:20-21  and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens."  (21)  And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"

Please note that the "you" is not all mankind but is the Colossian believers. The believers are now reconciled. The rest of the universe will be reconciled in the future.

Reconciliation is when two parties come together in peace. We know that the world is still at enmity to God as are the evil spirit beings. So in the future there will be a two sided peace between God and all at enmity to God.

Hi Texas Son and Welcome :icon_flower:

You may find there are a  few different veiws on the LOF, But ultimately its purpose is to give life to all.

For mine, I see it from the moment we ate from the Tree of G and E , we died.,that being the first death , Death of The Body and Soul , , the death of death comes through His life in us as you mentioned in Roman 6, Ultimately all go through the Lake of Fire( Christ), those in Him having experienced It now by being Raised in HIM, have No need to experience this again....

The LOF is very much a NOW experience as well as for those in the future.

Cue WillieH. :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on November 26, 2008, 02:01:50 PM
Hi Texas Son and Welcome :icon_flower:

You may find there are a  few different veiws on the LOF, But ultimately its purpose is to give life to all.

For mine, I see it from the moment we ate from the Tree of G and E , we died.,that being the first death , Death of The Body and Soul , , the death of death comes through His life in us as you mentioned in Roman 6, Ultimately all go through the Lake of Fire( Christ), those in Him having experienced It now by being Raised in HIM, have No need to experience this again....

The LOF is very much a NOW experience as well as for those in the future.

Cue WillieH. :icon_flower:

Hi T,

I am interested in how you perceive these verses,  since u believe "all go through LOF/second death"?

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


Blessings my friend.  Hope all is well with the healing.

Z

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


to me this is first death,

what we do from their, "believe" or "turn back" determines second death. 

2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


those who live "unto him", "believe", shall not die, shall not commit the "sin unto death/second death", shall not have to face the fire

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12:22  But ye(believers) are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

not unto

Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

Quote from: Zeek on November 26, 2008, 03:25:04 PM

Quote from: Taffy on November 26, 2008, 02:01:50 PM
Hi Texas Son and Welcome :icon_flower:

You may find there are a  few different veiws on the LOF, But ultimately its purpose is to give life to all.

For mine, I see it from the moment we ate from the Tree of G and E , we died.,that being the first death , Death of The Body and Soul , , the death of death comes through His life in us as you mentioned in Roman 6, Ultimately all go through the Lake of Fire( Christ), those in Him having experienced It now by being Raised in HIM, have No need to experience this again....

The LOF is very much a NOW experience as well as for those in the future.

Cue WillieH. :icon_flower:

Hi T,

I am interested in how you perceive these verses,  since u believe "all go through LOF/second death"?

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


Blessings my friend.  Hope all is well with the healing.

Z

Hey Zeek How ya doing bud..always good to hear from you :icon_flower:

for the first Zeek,, the lake is the death of death its self, in that which prevents us to see Life.

The death we all have is that of the soul ( heart and Mind) , the enmity which was ,as those who Now believe see Life and No longer know death, so will never DIE, as we KNOW who LIFE IS.

1John,

bro ive never been able to get my head around this, so if you have something to share.id like to hear it
:icon_flower:

Quote from: Zeek on November 26, 2008, 03:33:29 PM
2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


to me this is first death,

what we do from their, "believe" or "turn back" determines second death. 

2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


those who live "unto him", "believe", shall not die, shall not commit the "sin unto death/second death", shall not have to face the fire

So we have all died in Him, but are we all raised up with Him? If we are in Christ, we become a new creature (II Corinthians 5:17). Yet not all are new creatures.

I guess what I'm still struggling with is that in I Corinthians 15:22 it says "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

So which came first, and what state are we and the rest currently in? Are we (all) dead in Christ but yet made alive? Or are we who were made alive (spiritually) being put to death by the crucifying of our flesh?

Thanks,
TS

I think the deaths pertain to differnent things.  There is the spiritually dead who live according to their flesh . . .and in the end, experience the lake of fire to kill or purge that flesh from the control of their dorment spirit (God's nature in all of us is spirit).  So when we are born in the flesh through Adam, we are alive in flesh, but dead in spirit.  As Jesus stated to the disciple that used the excuse to bury his parents for not following Christ . . "Let the dead bury the dead".  You have spiritually dead burying physically dead.

So if you live this life apart from Christ, you are spiritually dead already.  As Taf mentioned, the lake of fire then brings death to that spiritual deadness in you . . .which means it causes a resurrection of your spirit within . . .as death in you is dead.  Life brings death to death.

Those that do have the honor and priviledge to accept Christ no longer are dead spiritually, but yet, they still die, it's just "carnally" that they die.  Being alive in Christ and dead to carnality isn't easy either.  There are all kinds of carnal things around us trying to jump start that which we've already given over to Christ.  There is still a pulling power from without, but greater is he that is within.

This isn't a black and white question that can be answered in such manner.  There are really three deaths in the mix.  Physical death, carnal death and spiritual death.  When you can dicipher between the three, you can also see which one fits where in Scripture

I agree with Nathan.

Quote from: Shadowland on December 12, 2008, 03:33:03 AM
I agree with Nathan.

I disagree with Nathan.  :happygrin:

Quote from: Nathan on November 26, 2008, 04:51:56 PM
I think the deaths pertain to differnent things.  There is the spiritually dead who live according to their flesh . . .and in the end, experience the lake of fire to kill or purge that flesh from the control of their dorment spirit (God's nature in all of us is spirit).  So when we are born in the flesh through Adam, we are alive in flesh, but dead in spirit.  As Jesus stated to the disciple that used the excuse to bury his parents for not following Christ . . "Let the dead bury the dead".  You have spiritually dead burying physically dead.

So if you live this life apart from Christ, you are spiritually dead already.  As Taf mentioned, the lake of fire then brings death to that spiritual deadness in you . . .which means it causes a resurrection of your spirit within . . .as death in you is dead.  Life brings death to death.

Those that do have the honor and priviledge to accept Christ no longer are dead spiritually, but yet, they still die, it's just "carnally" that they die.  Being alive in Christ and dead to carnality isn't easy either.  There are all kinds of carnal things around us trying to jump start that which we've already given over to Christ.  There is still a pulling power from without, but greater is he that is within.

This isn't a black and white question that can be answered in such manner.  There are really three deaths in the mix.  Physical death, carnal death and spiritual death.  When you can dicipher between the three, you can also see which one fits where in Scripture

I have to disagree to an extent. Have we truly ever been "spiritually dead"? Maybe "spiritually separated" but not dead. A quick concordance check of the O.T. shows the spirit of man active.

Exodus 35:21
    Everyone whose heart stirred him and everyone whose spirit moved him came {and} brought the LORD'S contribution for the work of the tent of meeting and for all its service and for the holy garments.

When we have been reconciled to God -- even apart from our salvation-- what is it that is reconciled to God? Are we the prodigal child brought back before God, even while we were yet enemies?

The way I am beginning to see this, (and I am open for correction)  :happygrin: is that there is two parts to our Saviors work. The Blood of the Lamb was shed for all. This means "ALL" in the most literal terms. The Blood was shed once and for all ushering in the New Covenant. The New Covenant is brought about (apart from man) by the Father, Son and Spirit (or Spirit of God if you wish). Man is a partaker of the New Covenant, but does nothing to institute nor ratify it.

So, the first part of Christ work is to reconcile us to God through His blood. However... the flesh is still master over those who do not receive Christ and His "saving" work through the Cross. Unless, as in Romans 6 we are dead, buried and resurrected IN Him, the flesh has not been dealt with. This does not mean we are not reconciled to God, but we have yet (if unsaved) died to the flesh. Salvation, as I am beginning to see it, is not salvation from eternal roasting, but the process of entering into Christ's finished work on our behalf.

Our Lord is separating out a special people to Himself. We are to be His bride, and ministers to the most High God. Just as the Levitical priest were called out from among the people for the honor of ministering to God, so shall we who believe, obey and walk by faith. Those who do not receive God's Word will suffer loss but not eternal torment.

QuoteChrist's death and atonement was for all mankind. Though we were yet enemies He reconciled us to God. His Blood and death on our behalf is what reconciles us to God. However... unless we go through Roman's 6, meaning enter into His death, burial and resurrection through our believing and faith, we are not in Him, meaning raised up with Him (abide in Me and I abide in you)

Those who do not believe or those who die without receiving Him will enter into the second death. As I am understanding it, since they did not receive Him, although they were reconciled with God already, they are not yet raised up with Him. I believe this is where the Lake of Fire enters in the picture as a purifying agent of God's all consuming love. Am I at least on the right track? We who believe have no part in the second death because we are already raised up with Him?

Hi Texas Son, You got it right. I agree with you. 

Here is the way, I understand the Second Death.

We must all go through two deaths before we can literally enter the Kingdom of God? Everybody knows that sooner or later we come to the end of our earthly lives; this is our natural physical death. However, there is another type of death that the Bible describes as the death of 'the old man', which everyone must experience through God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, either in this life for true believers (God's Elect, the Bride of Christ) or in the next life for unbelievers, before they can enter the Kingdom of God.

Romans 6:5-6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


Jesus Christ has already paid the price for everybody's salvation but all people have not yet received it. We shall ALL receive the salvation, which Jesus Christ has already earned for us, either in this life or the next, in God's time and in His order.

The Second Death, in the Lake of Fire, awaiting all unbelievers when they face the Great White Throne Judgement is the spiritual death of their 'old man'. All resurrected unbelievers in their immortal yet still unsaved bodies will have to experience the Second Death in God's consuming, refining and merciful Lake of Fire judgement. All unbelievers must die the Second Death in order to be born again with new Life in Christ to enter the Eternal Kingdom of God.

The Second Death in the Lake of Fire is only applicable to unbelievers who will rise in the Second Resurrection. This is because all true believers (God's Elect) who will rise in the First and Second Resurrections, will have already experienced the death of their old man through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  They will have already believed and accepted during their earthly lives the full work of the cross that their 'old man' and everybody else's 'old man' was crucified and died with Christ.

However, God's standard for entering His Kingdom remains the same, whether in this life or the next, which is repentance and God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Texas Son on November 26, 2008, 11:02:31 AM
Those who do not believe or those who die without receiving Him will enter into the second death. As I am understanding it, since they did not receive Him, although they were reconciled with God already, they are not yet raised up with Him. I believe this is where the Lake of Fire enters in the picture as a purifying agent of God's all consuming love. Am I at least on the right track? We who believe have no part in the second death because we are already raised up with Him?
TS

Hiya,

I agree with you.

I also wonder after reading all these posts on lake of fire, that some here think we all go through it.

I believe Scripture is quite clear, some are already raised up with Him putting off the things that hold them back; while others are not already raised and must have those things burned out.

:icon_joker: :icon_flower:

Very true, but what does it mean to be raised?
Is it simply accepting Christ, or is there more required?

Quote from: alihaymeg on December 21, 2008, 01:36:09 PM
Very true, but what does it mean to be raised?
Is it simply accepting Christ, or is there more required?

I believe in truth faith, yes, simply accepting Christ does it. After all, receiving Christ comes with repentance. Though this person will have to go through the fires spoken of in I Corinthians Chapter 3.

LOL, just to start another rabbit trail, does any one really "accept" Christ, or do we "receive" Christ?

willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on November 26, 2008, 02:01:50 PM
Hi Texas Son and Welcome :icon_flower:

You may find there are a  few different veiws on the LOF, But ultimately its purpose is to give life to all.

For mine, I see it from the moment we ate from the Tree of G and E , we died.,that being the first death , Death of The Body and Soul , , the death of death comes through His life in us as you mentioned in Roman 6, Ultimately all go through the Lake of Fire( Christ), those in Him having experienced It now by being Raised in HIM, have No need to experience this again....

The LOF is very much a NOW experience as well as for those in the future.

Cue WillieH. :icon_flower:

Very good bro!  :laughing7: ...muy bueno!  :first:

willieH: How-D ...dr Z...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on November 26, 2008, 03:25:04 PM
I am interested in how you perceive these verses,  since u believe "all go through LOF/second death"?

Well "zeek", ...Here is a list of those who "traverse" or become "aquainted with" the Lake of FIRE:

(Rev 21:8)  but the FEARFUL, and ...UNBELIEVING... and the ABOMINABLE, and MURDERERS, and WHOREMONGERS, and SORCERERS, and ...IDOLATORS... and ALL LIARS... SHALL have THEIR PART in the LAKE that BURNETH with FIRE, and BRIMSTONE which ...IS... the 2nd Death...  

Notice it says, ..."IS the 2nd death", not "will be"...

We are "dying the 2nd Death" in this life... not in what is to come...

Hmmm...

ever been FEARFUL?  You qualify!
ever NOT BELIEVED?  You qualify!
ever IDOLIZED anyone or anything?  You qualify!
ever LIED?  You qualify!

Usn's don't even have to "murder, whoremonger, sorcify (drugs), or even abominate" ourselves...

There are 4 qualifying parameters that pretty much, qualifies everyone... and even if one is not HONEST... (which is lying - and thereby qualifies one)...

GOD concluded ALL in UNBELIEF... and thereby concluded ALL to the LAKE of FIRE...  (Rom 11:32)  :dontknow:

For UNBELIEVING is a qualifying parameter!   :btantrum:

QuoteJoh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This is saying that ones that BELIEVE are ALIVE in CHRIST and their LIFE is preserved IN HIM who LIVES forever.  

It is not saying that they shall never meet DEATH of any sort, for everyone DIES physically, and ALL have died SPIRITUALLY by SINNING, so the word NEVER cannot be applied...  

"NEVER" means: "NOT at ANY TIME"...  If one NEVER shall DIE, it means this has NOT occured in their experience... which is just NOT so concerning human beings...  

We die in the spirit (1st death) by sinning (see Gen 2 - Adam),  ...and then in the physical (2nd death) (see Gen 5 - Adam)...

Merriam-Webster:

Never

Main Entry: nev·er  
Pronunciation: \ˈne-vər\
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English nǣfre, from ne not + ǣfre ever — more at no
Date: before 12th century
1 : not ever : at no time <I never met her>
2 : not in any degree : not under any condition <never the wiser for his experience>

Scripture says:

...even so in ADAM ...all ...DIE... even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive (1 Cor 15:22)

...it is appointed for a man ONCE to DIE... then the judgment... (Heb 9:27 )

...the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... for ALL HAVE SINNED... (Rom 3:23)

How can a SINNER, ...not DIE?  :omg:  

God stated to Adam, that if he ate from the tree (sinned by disobeying the command), that IN THE DAY which he ate, He would surely DIE... (Gen 2:17)...

Was GOD kidding?  Of course he was NOT!

Did Adam DIE Physically THAT DAY?  Of course not... He DIED Spiritually!

Did Adam eventually DIE physically?  YES!!!  (Gen 5:5) .... and all the DAYS that Adam lived were 930 years, and he ...DIED...  

GOD is not PARTIAL toward one human or another, for ALL are moving at His hand as He WORKS ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... (Eph 1:11)

...DUST thou art, and unto DUST shalt thou RETURN... (Gen 3:19) there is DEATH in the dust...

The word "NEVER" in John 11:26 does NOT mean that a believer shall NOT AT ANY TIME, ...DIE... :mnah:

It means that IN BELIEF of CHRIST is LIFE and during the course of that BELIEF,in this lifetime, that one shall NEVER DIE... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH...

Anyone or anything preserved IN CHRIST is ETERNALLY preserved... it does not mean that that one has NEVER or will NEVER experience DEATH...  :dontknow:

This must be so, otherwise the Scriptures are crumbled down and compromised left and right concerning this issue...

Adam DID DIE spiritually in the Day he ate as GOD said he would, ...and because of that SPIRITUAL death caused by SIN, ...eventually DIED physically after 930 years of Physical life...

1Jo 4:17    Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


1Jo 3:2    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:3    And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


1Jo 3:5    And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


1Jo 3:6    Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:3    And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:14    We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

1Jo 2:23    Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


 
Jhn 11:26    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 2:24    Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jo 2:25    And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

1Jo 2:28    And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

second death=ashamed.


1Jo 1:6    If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 1:7    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


1Jo 5:17    All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jo 5:18    We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rev 3:18     I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, (see I Peter 1:7) that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

or else:

Jer 23:40    And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not  be forgotten ((sin unto death imo).

Rom 9:33      As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 

The question which started this thread is:

The "second death" what exactly is it?

Rev 20:14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

Normally people die a first death. That death is unconscious death.
Why should the second death be any different?

Is the second day any different from the first?
Is the second watch different from the first?
Mar 14:72 "And, straightway, a second time, a cock crows." Was the second crowing any different than the first crowing?

 1Pe 1:7    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


It took awhile for Noah to build the ark, before the rain came. (a fiery trial of his faith before the "big fire/flood").

But later when the rain came, he was not ashamed, while the "wicked" world was. 

he that has hope in HIM during the trial of his faith, purifies himself even as he is pure.  Hallelujah.



Gal 4:29    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

Gal 4:30    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31    So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

:bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH on December 23, 2008, 07:43:19 AM
willieH: How-D ...dr Z...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on November 26, 2008, 03:25:04 PM
I am interested in how you perceive these verses,  since u believe "all go through LOF/second death"?

Well "zeek", ...Here is a list of those who "traverse" or become "aquainted with" the Lake of FIRE:

(Rev 21:8)  but the FEARFUL, and ...UNBELIEVING... and the ABOMINABLE, and MURDERERS, and WHOREMONGERS, and SORCERERS, and ...IDOLATORS... and ALL LIARS... SHALL have THEIR PART in the LAKE that BURNETH with FIRE, and BRIMSTONE which ...IS... the 2nd Death...  

Notice it says, ..."IS the 2nd death", not "will be"...

We are "dying the 2nd Death" in this life... not in what is to come...

Hmmm...

ever been FEARFUL?  You qualify!
ever NOT BELIEVED?  You qualify!
ever IDOLIZED anyone or anything?  You qualify!
ever LIED?  You qualify!

Usn's don't even have to "murder, whoremonger, sorcify (drugs), or even abominate" ourselves...

There are 4 qualifying parameters that pretty much, qualifies everyone... and even if one is not HONEST... (which is lying - and thereby qualifies one)...

GOD concluded ALL in UNBELIEF... and thereby concluded ALL to the LAKE of FIRE...  (Rom 11:32)  :dontknow:

For UNBELIEVING is a qualifying parameter!   :btantrum:

QuoteJoh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This is saying that ones that BELIEVE are ALIVE in CHRIST and their LIFE is preserved IN HIM who LIVES forever.  

It is not saying that they shall never meet DEATH of any sort, for everyone DIES physically, and ALL have died SPIRITUALLY by SINNING, so the word NEVER cannot be applied...  

"NEVER" means: "NOT at ANY TIME"...  If one NEVER shall DIE, it means this has NOT occured in their experience... which is just NOT so concerning human beings...  

We die in the spirit (1st death) by sinning (see Gen 2 - Adam),  ...and then in the physical (2nd death) (see Gen 5 - Adam)...

Merriam-Webster:

Never

Main Entry: nev·er  
Pronunciation: \ˈne-vər\
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English nǣfre, from ne not + ǣfre ever — more at no
Date: before 12th century
1 : not ever : at no time <I never met her>
2 : not in any degree : not under any condition <never the wiser for his experience>

Scripture says:

...even so in ADAM ...all ...DIE... even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive (1 Cor 15:22)

...it is appointed for a man ONCE to DIE... then the judgment... (Heb 9:27 )

...the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... for ALL HAVE SINNED... (Rom 3:23)

How can a SINNER, ...not DIE?  :omg:  

God stated to Adam, that if he ate from the tree (sinned by disobeying the command), that IN THE DAY which he ate, He would surely DIE... (Gen 2:17)...

Was GOD kidding?  Of course he was NOT!

Did Adam DIE Physically THAT DAY?  Of course not... He DIED Spiritually!

Did Adam eventually DIE physically?  YES!!!  (Gen 5:5) .... and all the DAYS that Adam lived were 930 years, and he ...DIED...  

GOD is not PARTIAL toward one human or another, for ALL are moving at His hand as He WORKS ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... (Eph 1:11)

...DUST thou art, and unto DUST shalt thou RETURN... (Gen 3:19) there is DEATH in the dust...

The word "NEVER" in John 11:26 does NOT mean that a believer shall NOT AT ANY TIME, ...DIE... :mnah:

It means that IN BELIEF of CHRIST is LIFE and during the course of that BELIEF,in this lifetime, that one shall NEVER DIE... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH...

Anyone or anything preserved IN CHRIST is ETERNALLY preserved... it does not mean that that one has NEVER or will NEVER experience DEATH...  :dontknow:

This must be so, otherwise the Scriptures are crumbled down and compromised left and right concerning this issue...

Adam DID DIE spiritually in the Day he ate as GOD said he would, ...and because of that SPIRITUAL death caused by SIN, ...eventually DIED physically after 930 years of Physical life...

PeacE...    

...willieH :ty:

Willie,

you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Quote
you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

Im struggling a wee bit to put this into words
In that the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men( as all men being DEAD to HIM) , the 2nd Death if you will bearing witness to the First death  is   the Death of death  itself...

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 03:30:48 PM
1Pe 1:7    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


It took awhile for Noah to build the ark, before the rain came. (a fiery trial of his faith before the "big fire/flood").

But later when the rain came, he was not ashamed, while the "wicked" world was. 

he that has hope in HIM during the trial of his faith, purifies himself even as he is pure.  Hallelujah.



Gal 4:29    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

Gal 4:30    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31    So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

:bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Psa 11:5    The LORD trieth the righteous: (I Peter 1:7) but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6    Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone,[/b] and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7    For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Hope in HIM, purifieth ourselves; even as he is pure.

I know I would be on different pages too, but my views on the second death.

[Rev 20:6]
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The meaning of resurrection should come together with the death, and they are one.
Spiritually dead man should die (the second death=lake of fire) on the cross with Jesus
in order to be reborn (the first resurrection) as a new man.

Then, he is blessed and holy man, being the spiritual priest of God and of Christ.
The second death will have no power over him, because he already went through it
during the first resurrection.

Therefore, 'the second death' is the first resurrection,
being the death of our old man on the cross with Christ.
In other words, we have to go through the lake of fire (the second death)
in order to be born again.

Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 23, 2008, 07:40:54 AM

Quote from: Nathan on November 26, 2008, 04:51:56 PM
I think the deaths pertain to differnent things.  There is the spiritually dead who live according to their flesh . . .and in the end, experience the lake of fire to kill or purge that flesh from the control of their dorment spirit (God's nature in all of us is spirit).  So when we are born in the flesh through Adam, we are alive in flesh, but dead in spirit.  As Jesus stated to the disciple that used the excuse to bury his parents for not following Christ . . "Let the dead bury the dead".  You have spiritually dead burying physically dead.

So if you live this life apart from Christ, you are spiritually dead already.  As Taf mentioned, the lake of fire then brings death to that spiritual deadness in you . . .which means it causes a resurrection of your spirit within . . .as death in you is dead.  Life brings death to death.

Those that do have the honor and priviledge to accept Christ no longer are dead spiritually, but yet, they still die, it's just "carnally" that they die.  Being alive in Christ and dead to carnality isn't easy either.  There are all kinds of carnal things around us trying to jump start that which we've already given over to Christ.  There is still a pulling power from without, but greater is he that is within.

This isn't a black and white question that can be answered in such manner.  There are really three deaths in the mix.  Physical death, carnal death and spiritual death.  When you can dicipher between the three, you can also see which one fits where in Scripture

Three deaths? I heard of TWICEdead but not THRICEdead :grin:

FINALLY!!  I'm back on again!

I really wanted to respond to this because I'm not sure how the math came to three deaths . .but that's not what I was trying to convey.  Frankly, I think ever man experiences two deaths.  The difference is . . .which death is voluntary and which isn't.  And I do think there are those who are spiritually dead due to the fact Jesus refers to "letting the dead bury the dead."  The born-again experience is a resurrection of my spirit from . . .beneath my flesh.  Before Christ, there was no consciousness that my spirit even existed.  Everything I viewed, was through the eyes of my soul . . .my mind.  It's the old "tree of knowledge, tree of life" scenerio.

It's either or.  But then when Christ comes in to the picture, the flesh then takes a backseat to the spirit.  Life over knowledge.  The problems begin to form when I look at life through the lens of both flesh and spirit . . .thus, one must die . .and in Chirst, I'm dead to my flesh . .thus, the first death here is voluntary.  My natural death . .physical . . .would then be my second death . .but because I elected to carnally die before physcial death . .there is no need for the lake of fire to bring me to my second death . . .it's already been accomplished through the blood of the Lamb when I voluntarily died the first time.

Now, if one doesn't elect to die to the flesh, there is no resurrection of the spirit . . .and when they physcially die, that isn't their second death, but their first.  The second then comes at the lake of fire which then affects the carnality of man . . .the second death.

Just where I am today.

Quote from: 70sevens on December 23, 2008, 07:00:35 PM
I know I would be on different pages too, but my views on the second death.

[Rev 20:6]
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The meaning of resurrection should come together with the death, and they are one.
Spiritually dead man should die (the second death=lake of fire) on the cross with Jesus
in order to be reborn (the first resurrection) as a new man.

Then, he is blessed and holy man, being the spiritual priest of God and of Christ.
The second death will have no power over him, because he already went through it
during the first resurrection.

Therefore, 'the second death' is the first resurrection,
being the death of our old man on the cross with Christ.
In other words, we have to go through the lake of fire (the second death)
in order to be born again.

70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ. Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


the rains beat against the "house", but notice the house was built first then the rains beat upon the house.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:


Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 09:49:11 PM
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


the rains beat against the "house", but notice the house was built first then the rains beat upon the house.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:


Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

First the natural then the spiritual :icon_flower:

Quote from: Texas Son
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

If you look at the above quote it would seem that the first death is in Adam, the second death is to be dead in Christ. You know..first Adam, second Adam...two deaths...dead in both Adams. I hope this makes sense.  :grin:

(2Cor.5:14) "if one died for all then were all dead".  (Rev. 14:13 "BLESSED are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".

I use to think that these that were dead in the Lord would not be hurt of the second death. These had already went through the fire.

Willie explained the second death to me a while back, I guess I need to go back and re-read it.

I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this subject.  :mblush:

CHB 

Thank you for attention Tony N,

Quote from Tony N--------------------------
70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means
they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.
-----------------------------------------------

1.
Yes, we are on different pages.
For example, I am on page 'now here',
but you are on page '1000 years later'

I, as a dead man, want resurrection now here eagerly,
so that I may live Jesus life for the rest of my life.
I guess we should not defer this resurrection to the indefinite future.

2.
Yes, the one who is in the second death, he is not yet in the book of life.
But, when he complete it, he is eligible to the new earth.


Blessings,

Hello guys,

Very interesting subject indeed. I just wanted to toss out some thoughts that I wrote about this a while back:

Concerning the nature of this fire, I just want to share some scripture that I see showing the physical type and spiritual reality. See how different this fire is than what most have come to believe:

Dan 3:24,25 Then Nebukadnetstar the male-authority-that-guides-the-people heard them singing hymns and was astonished, and rose up in haste: he spoke and said to his counselors, Didn't we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered the male-authority-that-guides-the-people, True, O male-authority-that-guides-the-people. He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a male-house-seed of the strongest-yoked-guide.


Dan 3:27 The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the male-authority-that-guides-the-people's counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.


Now compare this physical type with the spiritual reality:

Rev 2:11 He who overcomes won't be harmed by the second emptied-stomach.


Rev 20:6Knelt-down-and-given-to and separated is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second emptied-stomach has no power,

Notice the similarity. Also notice that those who God's favor was on went through a fire. They were not spared from it. Likewise, we are not spared from the second death, the lake of fire, that which is spoken of as to the horizon. We will not be harmed by it nor will it have power over us. Isaiah also spoke about us who actually dwell in such a place when he wrote:

Isa 33:14-15 The ones who miss-the-target in Tsiyon are afraid. Trembling has seized the polluted ones. Who among us can fill-the-stomach with the devouring fire? Who among us can fill-the-stomach with horizonal burning? He who walks in a straight-pathed way, and speaks blamelessly; He who despises the gain of oppressions, who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from looking at dysfunction; he will dwell on high. His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks. His bread will be supplied. His waters will be sure.

This fire is said to be kindled by the breath of God himself, where the prophet says:

Isa 33:11 You will conceive chaff. You will bring forth stubble. Your wind is a fire that will devour you

I believe this is the fire spoken of by Paul, as that which everyone goes through, either suffering loss, or receiving reward, based on building with wood, hay, and stubble, or gold, silver, and precious stones.

I do not believe that the lake of fire is this evil place where wickedness lives in torment forever. It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 24, 2008, 04:43:27 AM


It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:52:48 AM

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 24, 2008, 04:43:27 AM


It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

The only one's hurt by it are those who suffer loss from the process of purifying, or purging. Those who build with good materials, as Paul said, do not suffer in that way, because what they have doesn't burn up. They still go through the fire though, so I would answer no, I would not wish for anyone to have to be hurt by it, if they didn't have to.

Ron

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood  upon the world of the ungodly;

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Rom 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Gen 6:12  And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:14  Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. [/b]

Gen 7:21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. [/b]


Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?

Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 24, 2008, 05:16:23 AM

Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:52:48 AM

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 24, 2008, 04:43:27 AM


It is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. We know that it is torment for people to be around believers when they are living in wickedness and enjoy it. How much more tormenting will it be for those who are in the very presence of God when his love is applied without limits, burning away every vestige of unbelief from them.

Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29

Ron

So, wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the fire, if it's purpose is to purge?? 

The only one's hurt by it are those who suffer loss from the process of purifying, or purging. Those who build with good materials, as Paul said, do not suffer in that way, because what they have doesn't burn up. They still go through the fire though, so I would answer no, I would not wish for anyone to have to be hurt by it, if they didn't have to.

Ron

cool,

some here see the LOF as the agent for purifying all men.  if that is the case, then all would need to be hurt by it.

blessings

"The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."  :grave:

peacemaker

Quote from: 70sevens on December 24, 2008, 03:31:55 AM
Thank you for attention Tony N,

Quote from Tony N--------------------------
70Sevens, if one is in the second death then that means
they are not in the book of life and so will not live during the new earth.

The verse you quoted has to do with the resurrection just prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Those who have that resurrection will not have to worry about the second death 1000 years later.
-----------------------------------------------

1.
Yes, we are on different pages.
For example, I am on page 'now here',
but you are on page '1000 years later'

I, as a dead man, want resurrection now here eagerly,
so that I may live Jesus life for the rest of my life.
I guess we should not defer this resurrection to the indefinite future.

2.
Yes, the one who is in the second death, he is not yet in the book of life.
But, when he complete it, he is eligible to the new earth.


Blessings,

But that is not what the Bible says.
Those not in the book of life will not see the new earth.
Paul says the only time with those people come out of the second death is:

• Christ quits reigning
• all sovereignty, all authority and power nullified
• all enemies that keep mankind from being subjected placed under His feet
• the LAST enemy,  death, abolished

1Co 15:24-26  thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.

In Revelation Christ is still reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power not nullified, all enemies such as death not abolished.

So until those things come to pass those not in the book of life will not experience life until the things Paul lists come to pass.

Quote from: Tony N on December 24, 2008, 04:04:02 PM

• Christ quits reigning
• all sovereignty, all authority and power nullified
• all enemies that keep mankind from being subjected placed under His feet
• the LAST enemy,  death, abolished

1Co 15:24-26  thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.

In Revelation Christ is still reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power not nullified, all enemies such as death not abolished.

So until those things come to pass those not in the book of life will not experience life until the things Paul lists come to pass.

All the sayings above in the Scriptures are signs.
And you are mentioning only about the signs themselves.

We should understand what those signs really mean.


Merry Christmas !

Everyone experiences the second death but not everyone is hurt of it, for we read in Isaiah 33:14-15

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Who is it that shall DWELL with the DEVOURING FIRE and EVERLASTING BURNINGS?

He that walketh in RIGHTIOUSNESS

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;


No one can really say what the lake of fire is, there are many different views on it, but we are all agreed on one point, that it is a judgement in order to correct us and burn up all our dross.

My view in short goes something like this.

The second death is called the LAKE OF FIRE, in any lake you will find RIVERS flowing to and from it and one of the rivers imo that speaks of this lake is the LAW (those written in stone, not the 600+ laws Moses wrote)

The LAW is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.2Co.3:7 & Gal.3:24

This is exactly what the second death (lake of fire) does.

Another river is Gods ministers.

Hebrews 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

These ministers are those who have the fire shut up in their bones and by that ministration of that fire within them their preaching causes TORMENT to all that hear them.

As is seen in Rev.11:10, the two witnesses TORMENTED all that dwell upon the earth.

This TORMENT is the SAME TORMENT spoken of in Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Their very PRESENCE because of the fire and brimstone within them causes the TORMENT and this is seen when the devils cried out to Jesus art thou come to TORMENT us before the time?Mt.8:29

In every case above the word TORMENT is

928 basanizo { bas-an-id'-zo}

from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v

AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

GK - 989 { basanivzw }

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Strong's Enhanced Lexicon.

Thus He sits in judgement as a refiner to purify all the sons of Levi (all those UNDER the LAW)

Malachi 3:1-3

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 03:46:31 PM
Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Quote from: peacemaker on December 24, 2008, 08:30:34 AM
"The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."  :grave:

peacemaker

The "DEATH" of DEATH, ...is ...ETERNAL LIFE...  :dontknow:

For when LIFE is become in an ETERNAL state... DEATH has given way to it  ETERNALLY...

The 2nd DEATH has to do with LIARS, WHOREMONGERS, IDOLATORS, UNBELIEVERS, etc., ...which includes ALL MEN...  These are a list of SINFUL behaviors... (Rev 21:8)

That DEATH is realized in THIS LIFE, by men from the 1st day unto the last day.

JESUS died to save us ALL from the FIRST (spiritual) "DEATH", which we all "die" into UNBELIEF... (and in resurrection) bringing us back to life IN that RESURRECTION... for HE IS the RESURRECTION and the LIFE...

We experience the 2nd DEATH ourselves...  :sigh:

Those who die the 2nd Death "In CHRIST" are raised in the Garment of CHRIST which covers their sin...

Those who die the 2nd Death In SIN, are raised in the SHAME of that SIN... (Rev 3:18) :yes:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Quote from: Tony N on December 23, 2008, 03:27:28 PMNormally people die a first death. That death is unconscious death.
Why should the second death be any different?

Is the second day any different from the first?
Is the second watch different from the first?
Mar 14:72 "And, straightway, a second time, a cock crows." Was the second crowing any different than the first crowing?

- Was the second Adam any different than the first Adam?
- Can death be cast into itself?

If the LOF = the second death = second physical death then

"death...was cast into the lake of fire"
means "death...was cast into the second death"
means "death...was cast into a second rendition of the first death"
means "physical death...was cast into itself"
which doesn't make much sense.

This verse says that the [1] dead must [2] die in the Lord in order to rest from their works.

• Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Interestingly, dying in the Lord takes that dead peson and makes him alive.  That fits the metaphor of death and hades being cast into fire to be consumed.

I don't believe that either the first death or the second death refer to physical death.

Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 05:25:56 AMsome here see the LOF as the agent for purifying all men.  if that is the case, then all would need to be hurt by it.

Yes, because the person who enters God's judgment IS HURT by it, but once that person is humbled and returns to God and puts is trust in God to save him from within that judgment he is NOT HURT by it any more.

Here a person being HURT by God's wrath.

• Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath. 2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light. 3 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day. 4 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones. 5 He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail. 6 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old. 7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy. 8 Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer. 9 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked. 10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places. 11 He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate. 12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow. 13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins. 14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day. 15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood. 16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes. 17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity. 18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD.

Here is the same person being NOT HURT by that same wrath of God.

• Lamentations 3:19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. 20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. 21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. 24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. 25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. 26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. :28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him. 29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope. 30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach. 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. 34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

There was a change in attitude.  He was humbled.  He recalled God's mercy.  His hope came back.  He willingly accepted judgment.  He turns his cheek to the smiter God.  He says it is good to bear the yoke of his sins.  He patiently waits for salvation.

Quote from: willieH on December 26, 2008, 07:05:40 AM

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 03:46:31 PM
Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Ok, here's how I see this, in scripture; hopefully by not interjecting my own ad lib it will speak to u the same way it has to me:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If  that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life,

1Jn 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you,  whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope  in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,  and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit,  but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jn 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life[/b]: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 5:21  Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:18  For ye are not   come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith  without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, [/b] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world  through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled  therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


faithful to the end or fallen from grace.

new covenant vs

world: old covenant.

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I copied and pasted that one from Zeek's previous post . . it kind of jumped out at me there.  Many of the arguments (debates) that I get into seem to be due to the idea that some embrace the "literal" interpretation of Scripture rather than the spiritual . .yes??  Does this passage not sort of nail the coffin down pretty much on the idea that "if" you don't read it spiritually that it's missing the mark?  Or would this be considered twisting Scripture to fit one's opinions.  I get accused of that from time to time as well.

Hello Willie, truly, enjoy reading your written words.

Those who die the 2nd Death In SIN, are raised in the SHAME of that SIN... (Rev 3:18)   

Second death in Sin?

I didn't think lightning could strike in the same place twice. And had a disagreement with the insurance company, after the house got hit a few years ago. They argued that the fire insurance premium should go up, at least 10% - but in fact, it should go down - since we were not likely to get hit, again – the second death!

There is no thought in the "grave." Thus, "having the experience of dying to our sinful nature, and overcoming is now; later with the weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This was the reasoning behind, "The second death; is the death of death, as we only experience the state of dying."

But, "I'm open to the thoughts of the living; the life in/of Christ."

peacemaker

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

Quote from: Zeek on December 26, 2008, 03:44:30 PM

Quote from: willieH on December 26, 2008, 07:05:40 AM

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 03:46:31 PM
Willie, you say how can a sinner not die??

There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.


what???

how can that be??????

Why not answer your own question?  If the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... where is the EXCEPTION Zeek?

And WHY is it (the sin NOT unto death) not SPECIFIED Zeek?

SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

I have asked this very same question to others, and NO ONE has given an answer with any credibility... why don't YOU give it a try bro?

Explain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

Gracias...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Ok, here's how I see this, in scripture; hopefully by not interjecting my own ad lib it will speak to u the same way it has to me:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If  that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life,

1Jn 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you,  whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope  in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,  and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit,  but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jn 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life[/b]: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 5:21  Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:18  For ye are not   come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith  without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, [/b] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  

Dearest brother Zeek...

This was a beautiful set of Scriptures in which much love and wisdom can be found, HOWEVER...

This does not answer the QUESTION which you first asked me, and then I, (inconveniently) ponged it back to YOU... which was:

QuoteSIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW bro... and it is THAT TRANSGRESSION which equates to SIN... how therefore can ANY SIN, not be TRANSGRESSION and still be SIN?

QuoteExplain the "SIN" which is NOT unto death...  :dontknow:

If Scripture says SIN brings forth DEATH, how can any SIN, ...NOT... be unto DEATH?  :mshock:

That is like saying This "DEADLY POISON" is not "LIFE THREATENING"...  :dontknow:

Try again if you would be so kind, and this time, ...maybe make some connecting comments or phrases to your Scriptural quotes... as to what you are seeing in them... and HOW they ANSWER the QUESTION!  :dontknow:

I honestly got a little wearied (not by the GOOD WORD), but became wearied  :heat: in reading so many verses while trying to "see" what you are "seeing" in them...  :help:

And btw... this still does not ESTABLISH that any man, ...will "NEVER" DIE... for Scripture notes that: "ALL MEN are APPOINTED once to DIE" (Heb 9:27)... which promptly removes the word NEVER from our experience concerning DEATH.



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Hi Willie,

I have tried to type my response 5 times, only to delete 5 times. 

I can only present what I see, but yet when I try to put it into my words; it doesn't flow. 

So, although I admit my view may be "incomplete", I refer you back to the scriptures i posted; as I when I posted them, they just flowed in an order that made sense to me.  I apologize if you want more from me, but I am unable at this time. 

 
Z

Hello Zeek!

I wouldn't worry about it.

Some people see what they want and are unwilling to relinquish or suspend their beliefs to understand you.

That is their loss, not yours.

:2c:  :thumbsup:

P.S.

Jesus said some will not taste or experience death and since everyone experiences physical death (even Jesus), it therefore means Jesus was talking about Second Death.

John says there is sin that leads to death and sin that does not; since all physically die, including John, therefore John was talking about Second Death.

:winkgrin: :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Bobf... :hithere:

GOD created the Earth and TIME and all that was IN them in 6 days... part of that process was the INSERTION of the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

It IS WRITTEN that Man ate from the TREE which GOD said would cause His DEATH in the DAY he did so... However, Adam lived till he was 930yrs old...

Which means that the Death which was "cast" into this lifetime [Lake of Fire=suffering/death] would cause (1) death in the spirit (by eating of the tree), which later caused (2) death of the flesh which was defiled.

DEATH and the GRAVE [hades] were cast INTO the Lake of FIRE and BRIMSTONE...

THIS LIFE, contains BOTH (death & the grave), ...DEATH which partners with the GRAVE, and both are experienced by ALL in ADAM... with--IN the REALM of TIME... BOTH shall occur to each human up to the LAST "DAY" (John 6:44) of this realm...

Quote from: bobf on December 26, 2008, 09:00:27 AM
If the LOF = the second death = second physical death then

"death...was cast into the lake of fire"
means "death...was cast into the second death"

The 2nd DEATH... IS... DEATH (as an entity which removes LIFE) being cast into the Lake of FIRE... meaning that [ALL] DEATH takes place IN the LAKE of FIRE...

The 1st "DEATH" [spiritual] took place here, ...as Adam was told that he would DIE "in the DAY" he ate... He did NOT die physically, that came later (Gen 5:3)... but IN the DAY he ATE, he DIED spiritually -- even though he did not "know" it as death...

Because DEATH had been cast into [this] Lake of FIRE... it brought about the 1st DEATH which leads us on the journey to the 2nd DEATH, which ENDS our experience in this realm.

Quotemeans "death...was cast into a second rendition of the first death"
means "physical death...was cast into itself"
which doesn't make much sense.

You do not see this, so you stumble over your own words Bob...

ALL DEATH = DEATH cast into the Lake of FIRE...

THIS LIFE is the LOF... which IS the 2nd DEATH that MEN are APPOINTED to DIE...  Flesh & Blood will NOT inherit the kingdom of GOD, so this FLESH must RETURN to DUST for it is DEFILED...

However... the DEATH which CHRIST died to REDEEM us from is the 1st DEATH which was the SIN that separated us from HOLINESS... and eventually leads to the PHYSICAL [2nd] DEATH which we DIE via divine appointment...

In hopes you might gain understanding, I offer the following understanding of Rev 21:14... (which GOD had revealed to me in my own personal study, prior to finding out that this had also occured to J. Preston Eby as well)

J. Preston Eby notes (and I agree with him) that a sentence in english, can state FACTS in reverse and NOT change the meaning of the sentence, ...but  when this is done, some are able to find clarity in the reversal which they did not in reading the sentence as written...

Something like this:

(1)  A body of Land surrounded by WATER is an ISLAND.
(2)  An ISLAND is a body of Land surrounded by WATER.

We inserted the word WATER 1st in the sentence in example one, ...and the word ISLAND 2nd.

In example #2, we reverse the positions of these two...

This does NOT at ALL, change the meaning...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14

(1) And DEATH and HADES were cast into the Lake of Fire, THIS is the Second Death.

(2) THIS is the 2nd DEATH, ...DEATH and HADES were cast into the Lake of Fire.

This makes the verse take on a different look, for it notes the same facts in reverse order without CHANGING the FACTS... 

The 2nd DEATH is the result of the 1st DEATH... the NATURAL caused DEATH in the SPIRITUAL first... then proceeded to cause DEATH in the NATURAL... we are NOT redeemed from the 2nd DEATH... we are redeemed from the 1st DEATH for we are SPIRITUAL CHILDREN of YHVH...

Each must find 2 experiences in DEATH:

(1) 1st Death/SPIRITUAL -- Life (1st) removed Spiritually in the DAY of EATING of DISOBEDIENCE -- CHRIST the OBEDIENT, died to redeem/vessel of honor...

(2) 2nd Death/FLESH -- Life (2nd) removed Physically -- we DIE... in the flesh -- NOT redeemed/vessel of dishonor

Don't know how else to explain it bro... either you will see it, or you wont...  :thumbsup:

No sweat  :sweat: ...either way!  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

No matter what anyone might suggest that I wont relinquish or suspend my beliefs to understand what you say (Why would I do that?  :rolleye:)...

We each are on our own pathway... and on those individual pathways, GOD is teaching us in varying agendas according to His working of ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (not ours)...

So thanks for your words, maybe we'll connect in this area later, bro...  :thumbsup:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

un⋅der⋅stand⋅ing
   /ˌʌndərˈstændɪŋ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhn-der-stan-ding] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.    mental process of a person who comprehends; comprehension; personal interpretation: My understanding of the word does not agree with yours.
2.    intellectual faculties; intelligence; mind: a quick understanding.
3.    superior power of discernment; enlightened intelligence: With her keen understanding she should have become a leader.
4.    knowledge of or familiarity with a particular thing; skill in dealing with or handling something: an understanding of accounting practice.
5.    a state of cooperative or mutually tolerant relations between people: To him, understanding and goodwill were the supreme virtues.
6.    a mutual agreement, esp. of a private, unannounced, or tacit kind: They had an understanding about who would do the dishes.
7.    an agreement regulating joint activity or settling differences, often informal or preliminary in character: After hours of negotiation, no understanding on a new contract was reached.
8.    Philosophy.
a.    the power of abstract thought; logical power.
b.    Kantianism. the mental faculty resolving the sensory manifold into the transcendental unity of apperception.
–adjective
9.    characterized by understanding; prompted by, based on, or demonstrating comprehension, intelligence, discernment, empathy, or the like: an understanding attitude.

 

  Hi Young yuni ,
  you sure do remind me of Craig   is he realted to you by chance ? :dontknow:
  He is not  been around lately   ,and  we miss him alot
  but we got you now  :icon_flower:   God bless ya  :HeartThrob:

Hiya Rosered!

He the one who invited his facebook group to a number of websites and forums a few weeks ago, including this one.

(Since people been putting up some anti-Universalism or hell facebook links people can join this one!)

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=2273280062

So I guess he can be found somewhere if he isn't here anymore.

Did you try emailing him?

:cloud9:  :gangel:

Quote from: YoungYuni on January 06, 2009, 07:32:48 AM
Hiya Rosered!

He the one who invited his facebook group to a number of websites and forums a few weeks ago, including this one.

(Since people been putting up some anti-Universalism or hell facebook links people can join this one!)

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=2273280062

So I guess he can be found somewhere if he isn't here anymore.

Did you try emailing him?

:cloud9:  :gangel:

Hi Young Yuni ,
I have not seen him since His  You-Tube  video .
  I have not e-mailed him ,
  I do not know if he would want me too ? 
I dont have facebook  , my daugther who is 20  has  facebook ,
  she told me I am to old for that stuff ? go figure  :mblush:

  well  I am glad you joined the TentMaker  forum .
  I  desire Craig to find peace and Joy in the Lord where the Holy Spirit sends him
  He has blessed me along the  way  and will always be considered a brother  in the Lord  Jesus  Christ .
   God  bless you as well  .. Rose  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Taffy on December 23, 2008, 03:55:09 PM

Quote
you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

Im struggling a wee bit to put this into words
In that the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men( as all men being DEAD to HIM) , the 2nd Death if you will bearing witness to the First death  is   the Death of death  itself...

:icon_flower:

Hey G!

Mind explaining what you mean by "the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men"? I'm not sure I am understanding what you mean??  :mblush:

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

So what is the second death, as it relates to the death of Jesus Christ and the death of death?

We know that death and hell give up the dead that in them and they are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. And we know that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Right?

When did that happen if not at the death of Jesus Christ (the SECOND MAN) on the cross?

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth" (Luke 12:49)

And in the book of Hebrews we read:

Heb 9:24-28  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, **BUT AFTER THIS** THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How many times have I heard people quote "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" to say that it is not until after men die (physically) that judgment comes. But is that what this passage is talking about? Or it is talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, specifically? Who came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and ***AFTER THIS*** THE JUDGMENT?

So that ***NOW*** is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation?  :icon_flower:

Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!  :cloud9:


Rom 6:3-8  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


IT IS FINISHED!! We simply need to come to the REALIZATION that we HAVE BEEN reconciled unto God and are even now NEW CREATURES.... ONE NEW MAN creating IN CHRIST JESUS.  :dsunny:

Any thoughts???

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 12:01:16 AM

Quote from: Taffy on December 23, 2008, 03:55:09 PM

Quote
you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

Im struggling a wee bit to put this into words
In that the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men( as all men being DEAD to HIM) , the 2nd Death if you will bearing witness to the First death  is   the Death of death  itself...

:icon_flower:

Hey G!

Mind explaining what you mean by "the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men"? I'm not sure I am understanding what you mean??  :mblush:

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

So what is the second death, as it relates to the death of Jesus Christ and the death of death?

We know that death and hell give up the dead that in them and they are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. And we know that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Right?

When did that happen if not at the death of Jesus Christ (the SECOND MAN) on the cross?

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth" (Luke 12:49)

And in the book of Hebrews we read:

Heb 9:24-28  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, **BUT AFTER THIS** THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How many times have I heard people quote "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" to say that it is not until after men die (physically) that judgment comes. But is that what this passage is talking about? Or it is talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, specifically? Who came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and ***AFTER THIS*** THE JUDGMENT?

So that ***NOW*** is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation?  :icon_flower:

Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!  :cloud9:


Rom 6:3-8  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


IT IS FINISHED!! We simply need to come to the REALIZATION that we HAVE BEEN reconciled unto God and are even now NEW CREATURES.... ONE NEW MAN creating IN CHRIST JESUS.  :dsunny:

Any thoughts???

Hey Chrissie :icon_flower:

Like I mentioned, i was Kinda struggling...,

Ive sorta bounced bewtween two concepts for a while,...

but after you put it so Plainly ,  :icon_flower:

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

sheep:  Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



goats: 

Joh 8:21  Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 12:15:37 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 12:01:16 AM

Quote from: Taffy on December 23, 2008, 03:55:09 PM

Quote
you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

Im struggling a wee bit to put this into words
In that the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men( as all men being DEAD to HIM) , the 2nd Death if you will bearing witness to the First death  is   the Death of death  itself...

:icon_flower:

Hey G!

Mind explaining what you mean by "the First Death is Christ ,Tasting Death for ALL men"? I'm not sure I am understanding what you mean??  :mblush:

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

So what is the second death, as it relates to the death of Jesus Christ and the death of death?

We know that death and hell give up the dead that in them and they are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. And we know that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Right?

When did that happen if not at the death of Jesus Christ (the SECOND MAN) on the cross?

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth" (Luke 12:49)

And in the book of Hebrews we read:

Heb 9:24-28  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, **BUT AFTER THIS** THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How many times have I heard people quote "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" to say that it is not until after men die (physically) that judgment comes. But is that what this passage is talking about? Or it is talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, specifically? Who came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and ***AFTER THIS*** THE JUDGMENT?

So that ***NOW*** is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation?  :icon_flower:

Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!  :cloud9:


Rom 6:3-8  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


IT IS FINISHED!! We simply need to come to the REALIZATION that we HAVE BEEN reconciled unto God and are even now NEW CREATURES.... ONE NEW MAN creating IN CHRIST JESUS.  :dsunny:

Any thoughts???

Hey Chrissie :icon_flower:

Like I mentioned, i was Kinda struggling...,

Ive sorta bounced bewtween two concepts for a while,...

but after you put it so Plainly ,  :icon_flower:

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Some time back Kim sent me some things that she had put together connecting the second death and the first resurrection. Wonder if she can add that here?? (HINT HINT  :laughing7:)

Though Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the furnace BOUND, they were seen walking LOOSE in the fire.... because there was A FOURTH MAN in the fire, one like unto THE SON OF GOD.  :boogie: so THEY HAD NO HURT!!!  :gthumbsup:  (though they were indeed cast into the furnace).


Kim showed the connections beautifully!!  :thumbsup: Though I think it was an "unfinished" study at the time.... and she may not have ever gotten around to finishing it.  :laughing7:


OOOOOOHHHHH KIMMY!!!!!!!! Have anything to ADD??? :happygrin:

Quote

OOOOOOHHHHH KIMMY!!!!!!!! Have anything to ADD??? :happygrin:

Whos Kim :icon_flower: :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 12:39:14 AM

Though Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the furnace BOUND, they were seen walking LOOSE in the fire.... because there was A FOURTH MAN in the fire, one like unto THE SON OF GOD.  :boogie: so THEY HAD NO HURT!!!  :gthumbsup:  (though they were indeed cast into the furnace).

Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Gen 7:6  And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7  And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.



Gen 7:11 In the year 600 of Noah's life, in the seventeenth day of the second month, that same day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up and burst forth, and the windows and floodgates of the heavens were opened.


Gen 7:13 On the very same day Noah and Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, went into the ark,

Gen 7:17 The flood [that is, the downpour of rain] was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased and bore up the ark, and it was lifted [high] above the land.

Gen 7:18 And the waters became mighty and increased greatly upon the land, and the ark went [gently floating] upon the surface of the waters.


Gen 7:21 And all flesh ceased to breathe that moved upon the earth--fowls and birds, [tame] animals, [wild] beasts, all swarming and creeping things that swarm and creep upon the land, and all mankind.

interestingly, Noah was not flesh, he did not cease to breathe

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gen 7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils were the breath and spirit of life died.

Gen 7:23 God destroyed (blotted out) every living thing that was upon the face of the earth; man and animals and the creeping things and the birds of the heavens were destroyed (blotted out) from the land. Only Noah remained alive, and those who were with him in the ark.(5)

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Psa 25:20  O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:11  For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


second death imo, is process of being "shamed", dying in your sins (ashamed).


Isa 66:5  Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Mar 8:38  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. [/color]

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 02:14:47 AM

QuoteOOOOOOHHHHH KIMMY!!!!!!!! Have anything to ADD???

Oh your soooo weird, you did that on purpose  :grin:

Ya freak :grin:

Cant I just give them to you to rewrite like we did in the olden days? I cant put stuff into words like you can. I can copy paste sections but I betcha if I just give them to you, you can put them together more orderly, are you busy?   :grin:

Too busy for YOU??? Neeeeeeeeevveer!!  :happygrin:

Zeek,

It's not that I am ignoring you, I just have no idea whether you are agreeing or disagreeing, bro?  :grin:

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 02:41:20 AM
Zeek,

It's not that I am ignoring you, I just have no idea whether you are agreeing or disagreeing, bro?  :grin:

no biggie Chrissie,

i'm not sure if i agree or disagree either.   :bigGrin:


but I do think this verse is relevant re:

appointed once to die:


2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

but if they refuse to "live"

second death awaits, dieing in their sin. 

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Hey Zeek,

But they are already "dead" in their sins, right? And what about being "twice dead"?  :grin:

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:08:23 AM
Hey Zeek,

But they are already "dead" in their sins, right? And what about being "twice dead"?  :grin:

Dead after the FLESH and Dead after the Spirit :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 03:13:11 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:08:23 AM
Hey Zeek,

But they are already "dead" in their sins, right? And what about being "twice dead"?  :grin:

Dead after the FLESH and Dead after the Spirit :icon_flower:

Twice dead, plucked up by the roots.... Is that the flesh or the spirit?  :happy3:

I sort of see it connected to those who sleep in Christ. If one died for all then were ALL DEAD.... but even now (after having been reconciled to God through Christ by being baptized into THE SECOND DEATH (the death of Christ) :winkgrin: ) some STILL SLEEP.... being twice dead???  :mshock:

Tell me what you see, as it relates to the flesh and the spirit??   :ty:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 03:16:08 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 02:38:29 AM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 02:14:47 AM

QuoteOOOOOOHHHHH KIMMY!!!!!!!! Have anything to ADD???

Oh your soooo weird, you did that on purpose  :grin:

Ya freak :grin:

Cant I just give them to you to rewrite like we did in the olden days? I cant put stuff into words like you can. I can copy paste sections but I betcha if I just give them to you, you can put them together more orderly, are you busy?   :grin:

Too busy for YOU??? Neeeeeeeeevveer!!  :happygrin:

I'll send it to you PM (Just one of them) delete personal stuff and remove what doesnt apply etc ok?  :grin: I cant post things in good order Im so bad at it. HELP?  :grin:

You know ALL LIARS will have their part in the lake of fire, right??  :laughing7:

OK, GOT IT!!

For me it is JUST FINE and could be posted just as it is.... but I will look at it and see if there is anything else that could be added to make it any clearer, etc. So don't be looking for me to post it in the next 5 or 10 minutes, unless you want to see it just as I GOT IT.  :grin:

the more I think about it, I think this might be "first death",

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:



and

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;(second death) but is passed from death unto life.


but if we hold the truth in unrighteousness, wrath awaits us (second death)

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

and they would be twice dead.  



I think Chrissie this is the same thing u were saying re: those who continue to sleep??


1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but  to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 03:49:02 AM
Depends how YOU define a liar  :grin: Isnt a liar (according to him) one who is found adding to His words? and the other is one who SAYS they love GOD and hates their brother?

Asking ya to do somethin for me because your better at it then me is being a liar?  Sheesh  :grin:  

WEll, if ya want to get all TECHNICAL about it.  :grin: :grin: :grin:

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2009, 03:49:54 AM
the more I think about it, I think this might be "first death",

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:



and

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;(second death) but is passed from death unto life.


but if we hold the truth in unrighteousness, wrath awaits us (second death)

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

and they would be twice dead.  



I think Chrissie this is the same thing u were saying re: those who continue to sleep??


1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but  to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yep, I think so.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 03:58:23 AM
Thought about something Zeek posted concerning His wrath.

I can get pretty angry.   :laughing7:

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2009, 04:05:54 AM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 03:58:23 AM
Thought about something Zeek posted concerning His wrath.

I can get pretty angry.   :laughing7:

:mrflo: :laugh: :rolllol: :LH: :pointlaugh: :laughhand:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 04:10:13 AM
Dont you have a job to do?  :laughing7:

What? Don't you think I can MULTI-TASK??  :happygrin:

Can't you READ AND WRITE all at the same time???  :laughing7:


:msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed: :msealed:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 04:31:03 AM
Dont post, I'm sending you more I forgot  :grin:

What? You think I can multi-task now??? I'm still READING!!!   :mrflo:

OK, GOT IT..... going to read IT... now.  :winkgrin:

"the "first death" I think is analogous with Adam and "being kicked out" of the garden,

Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

in which there was hope for restoration

Gen 3:15  and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

and later typified through Israel's exile to Babylon and there hope for the annointed one to restore their priesthood.

The law revealed sin and their "death became more clear"

Rom 3:20  because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:10  and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death:

Rom 7:11  for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

Jesus being the last Adam, was the hope for Israel; and rejection of him; led to second death; Those who held onto the law for righteousness, died in their sins.  Their house came crashing down.   

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!



 

  Adam was not  complete [perfect]  in Adam all die/dead  [death]

  Image of a man / beast  Adam

Adam  was a type of king of the earth [ God gave him dominion/authority  /rule  over the earth ]  first death [wounded healed] second death cannot hurt  no harm  no longer   mortal  they are spiritual creatures in Christ

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

   the thing is lambs /sheep   these beasts  are compared to belonging to Christ /God  but spoke as a   red dragon beast /adversary

   Adam = "the red earth"

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us


the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World .. . . 
  a lamb is a gentle beast  innocent that was an attonment sacrifice
  and    are  also followers of Christ [ you are to  be like your  Master/teacher ]

you have to read all of Rev 13  to see it better  than this little bit here though
  Kim  showed me this  tonight and it got me to thinking  wow! she is on to somthing with the Lambs/sheep


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  



  In Christ  [perfect] complete

  this is not clear at all , but maybe someon can help  me out here if they see anything at all  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:33:45 AM

Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 03:13:11 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2009, 03:08:23 AM
Hey Zeek,

But they are already "dead" in their sins, right? And what about being "twice dead"?  :grin:

Dead after the FLESH and Dead after the Spirit :icon_flower:

Twice dead, plucked up by the roots.... Is that the flesh or the spirit?  :happy3:

I sort of see it connected to those who sleep in Christ. If one died for all then were ALL DEAD.... but even now (after having been reconciled to God through Christ by being baptized into THE SECOND DEATH (the death of Christ) :winkgrin: ) some STILL SLEEP.... being twice dead???  :mshock:

Tell me what you see, as it relates to the flesh and the spirit??   :ty:

Hi Chris :icon_flower:
If Im reading aright :HeartThrob:

Just my Wording sis, not the best at the Best of times....same thing I think


Twice dead, plucked up by the roots.... Is that the flesh or the spirit?  :happy3:

I sort of see it connected to those who sleep in Christ. If one died for all then were ALL DEAD.( still alseep, Dead to Him Dead in the FLESH)... but even now (after having been reconciled to God through Christ by being baptized into THE SECOND DEATH (the death of Christ) :winkgrin: ) some STILL SLEEP.( Dead to the spirit))... being twice

dead???  :mshock:

Quote from: rosered on January 17, 2009, 09:09:18 AM


  Adam was not  complete [perfect]  in Adam all die/dead  [death]

  Image of a man / beast  Adam

Adam  was a type of king of the earth [ God gave him dominion/authority  /rule  over the earth ]  first death [wounded healed] second death cannot hurt  no harm  no longer   mortal  they are spiritual creatures in Christ

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

   the thing is lambs /sheep   these beasts  are compared to belonging to Christ /God  but spoke as a   red dragon beast /adversary

   Adam = "the red earth"

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us


the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World .. . . 
  a lamb is a gentle beast  innocent that was an attonment sacrifice
  and    are  also followers of Christ [ you are to  be like your  Master/teacher ]

you have to read all of Rev 13  to see it better  than this little bit here though
  Kim  showed me this  tonight and it got me to thinking  wow! she is on to somthing with the Lambs/sheep


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  



  In Christ  [perfect] complete

  this is not clear at all , but maybe someon can help  me out here if they see anything at all  :HeartThrob:

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Taffy on January 17, 2009, 01:31:58 PM
.....Image of a man / beast  Adam

1) Adam, the first man, the parent of the whole human family

alot of times it is our  words or what comes out of  our mouth  that defiles us

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even  over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



Hi T, or anyone;

this might be a little off topic, but it is clear that death by sin (imo, first death) spread to all men.  But the scripture sounds like not all of us are/were "in Adam", since some didn't sin after the similtude of him. 

??  any ideas how one doesn't sin after the similtude of Adam's transgression??

I'm thinking possible it has to do with whether one is deceived or not??

1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

??

There are better pictures than this--

But did you all see the pictures of the US Air passengers

walking on water?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/16/f-bird-strikes.html

This is the second crash in a row where all were saved--first by fire (colorado) then by water (NY).

   Fire Wrote ;

QuoteWounded is a "hurt" of some sort...."Tormented" (as shown in lake of fire) can even be grievous pains (which can be of mind) or to be VEXED, it speaks of Lot "VEXED" as it pertains to the filthy "CONVERSATION". We have SPAKE like a dragon (because the Serpent, devil that deceived them) IS that old dragon.  He SPAKE CONTRARY to God = LIAR even "Lying divination = which did say "The Lord saith when He hath not spoken". Sorta appearing as a Lamb but speaks like a dragon = liar?

  This part Here sis , I would love to focus  on ,
    when we go out to Broad i loose sight   lol..  love the details  remember that lol   they are clues  , i miss when  breezing though
  I have to do these in parts  and let them sink down deep into my ears [ and heart]  and not rush it though
  I may not get any revelations , but I was so blessed by our conversation and than  went on the reading Daniel   wow , that was enlightning

  it seems to me that  Daniel was  not ''hurt''   by the lions mouth
  all are young lions [teeth/ to tear ]

  and the 3 young menand the 4th was SEEN in the Fire  the Son of God   were not ''hurt''  by the Fire [burned or smoke effected/passed  them] 
  all were gathered into  one place to see this , their coats not changed  what has that to do with  dwelling in the Fire ?
   see what I mean  , that is a mystery  in its self  and the smell  of the smoke passing ?  what is this ?  the smoke  has something to do with  a stench in Gods nostrils , they passed this test  it seems

  Dan 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

   so death  did not harm  Daniel nor the 3 young men  by the  2 ways of  death ,  roaring lions  mouth and  Fire

  no harm    they worrshiped the Most High God

of all the gods  in the old testament and the  error  of serving all them gods [elohiym], the  Focus  is on the MOST HIGH GOD


Strong's H430 - 'elohiym אלהים
Transliteration
'elohiym
Pronunciation

el·o·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

plural of H433

TWOT Reference
93c


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God
  here is the kicker to me  seeing that  the serpent was tempting/testing/ proving /trying     the woman

  Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

  the deception  is this to me  , that no matter how much  anyone thinks they have  LIFE and  power ,glory.  fame  pride , control  over their lives and others lives  by their  own  minds / hearts   being little mini gods  , the above description   to see this exercising  good and evil judgments   to rule and reign
  they  come to the place of death / failure and an end
  when I read King Nebs  pride  reaching  the fulness / brim  he had to 
drink the cup  of the wrath of God  in order to be humbled from pride  , he was judged for his words  and thinking  and  the kingdom was taken from him  till he realized the  the Most HIGH GOD  was in control  over all kingdoms  GOD regins supreme 
  I saw  that His kingdom  was a tree / the knowledge of good and evil 
that TREE  , till He was given  death and Life  from God  to continue after his   judgment/ sentance  was given 7 times passing over him

  the 7 vials of the wrath of God  completed   King Neb was  a king of the earth / Babylon
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.


Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

      King Neb  could not see   Gods  kingdom  and rule / reign for the Smoke [pride of life]  till   the end  finished completed

   This is the small part  of the hurt sis , and it is not   presented very well lol
  but I just keep on trying any ways  :mblush: lol


:HeartThrob:
 

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 07:46:46 PM
They were proved it appears, Chris has my study concerning them in the fire and Him appearing unto them, the STING of death IS Sin Christ comes WITHOUT SIN. He said INNOCENCY was found IN THEM (they did NO HARM) just as we are called to be BLAMELESS sons of God in a perverse generation. The power of the FIRE had no power over THEM, they had NO HURT (there was NO STING) It speaks of the Second death NOT HURTING overcomers and its through faith we overcome, a third part is brought through the fire? If there were three of them what were they of if not the third of what? He said they DID no harm either, it speaks in revelation of those who wanted to harm His witnesses that a fire would proceed from THEIR MOUTH and they would need to be killed in that manner or something, and we see in the picture a FLAME OF FIRE come out and SLEW the men who took the three up and cast them into the fire. Seems like manner in many respects.

Just interesting connections there

  ah sis you see  it too !  :thumbsup:
look at this too, they were saints/ holy ones! innocent  and put to death . but  did not die ! no harm  come to them !   they had died once  to sin /law and we alive to God for ever more ...
and the second death  power of men   could not harm them  ..

  the saints are to judge  angels and men .. by decree  of watchers / angels of God messengers   and the holy ones /saints  by Gods WORD    see Jesus in this !  :HeartThrob:



Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
  I think this is why Jesus tells us to look  to the prophet Daniel [books] for this Wisdom and understanding  from above  :icon_flower: so Revelation/ unveiling  fits    :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 08:36:21 PM
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the '' seeing it right '' perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

Quote from: rosered on January 18, 2009, 05:30:49 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 08:36:21 PM
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the " seeing it right " perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

Yes Rose , its looks that way :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2009, 05:43:01 PM

Quote from: rosered on January 18, 2009, 05:30:49 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 17, 2009, 08:36:21 PM
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

I'd hate to see what 70 times 7 looks like  :grin:

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Boy sure shows how our words can affect things dont it?   :grin:

Good thing God changed him through it by humbling him  :thumbsup:

  Hi  Kim ,
  I wonder  when  King Nebs kingdom  departed from Him
   and when restored 
He went  from  him thinking he was in control of everything and everyone [god complex]
  to  knowing the The Most High God ruled all nations and kingdoms   

  that humbling  is the " seeing it right " perception  to me
  what do you think it is ?
  :HeartThrob:
including Him

Yes Rose , its looks that way :icon_flower:

  Cute  :icon_jokercolor:   Bro G , and witty in a corny sort of way LOL , made me chuckle  this morning 
''Looks''  can be deceiving  hee hee . :thumbsup:

  I understand  be humbled in that way can sure change your mind about things 
it is all about Praising God and glorifing  Him and not ourselves and each other
  it is the Most High God `illay (Aramaic) supreme  'elahh (Aramaic) 1) god, God

a) god, heathen deity

b) God (of Israel)

  this is what I find also amazing , these two words combined
  apparently there was soooooo  much  idol  worship in the days of babylon   in the book of Daniel   can you imagine this much confusion bro
  and we still do as of today with all the differnt religious  sects  still going on after having the New Testament! Witness
  this  is hard to fathom and understand , but the Lord did say it would 
get worse and worse
  thank God for His grace  in every way
  not saying I have it all figured out  and am an expert on  who is God lol
  but   since the Lord took me from so many  teachers and preachers , those  sitting in the high places ,
  to just the Holy Spirit and made it more personal  of an experience
  I have a new found peace and joy in the Lord that surpasses anything I have ever known before
  for this alone i am  so much more than grateful , I am  praising His Holy name now and more settled  and confident in His  love  and Will for us all !  :HeartThrob:

1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

willieH: Hi ...ZZZZZZZZZ :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on January 20, 2009, 06:24:01 AM
1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

These 2 seemed to think that SIN continued in their experience:

Rom 8:25  I thank God through JESUS CHRIST our Lord.  So THEN with the MIND I myself serve the LAW of GOD, ...BUT... with the FLESH, the LAW of SIN.

Paul, at the time of this writing was definitely CONVERTED and had REPENTED, for they are contained in this context...

1 John 1:8  If we SAY we have NO SIN, we ...DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...IN us.

John, an original APOSTLE notes that SIN remains... and teaches confession for it... to the BELIEVERS (of converted/repentent children)... to whom he writes...

Personally, (though I could be wrong), :JCThink: I believe we are ALL YET to be "born again"... 

To date, ...I have seen no convincing arguments presented that PROVE any man is "BORN AGAIN" while in this life.  :dontknow:

In this life we DO find conversion, and repentence... but it appears according to Paul & John, that even though we are CONVERTED and REPENTENT, that SIN remains a factor within our individual circumstances...

It is within the process of LIFE, we submit unto God...  :dontknow:

Does anyone think he/she is NOW SINLESS?  And shall remain SINLESS for the balance of his/her life?  :mshock:

As I see it... that would be a PRIDEFUL stance to take... which means the "SIN of PRIDE" is occuring within such a declaration...  :sigh:

Only the PERFECT JUDGMENT of GOD can note whether a SIN-LESS condition exists, and certainly IS a determination which can only be truly made by One which is PERFECT and SIN-LESS...

NOT... an observation somehow deduced by IMPERFECT beings such as ourselves, ...OF OURSELVES...  :dontknow:

We confess the sins WE [obviously] KNOW, but there are surely others which pass from our view of ourselves... that only GOD sees...



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

When I come into all things are passed away, I see this as my old way of thinking.  My old way of diciphering, my old way of reasoning . . .it's all been transformed . . ."behold, I will make all things new"  he didn't say he'll make all new things . . . but he'll make all things new.  I still think . . .God hasn't removed my thinking . . .he's just renewed "how" I think.

We've conversed on other threads about the idea of dimensions.  Natural, moral/corporate, and spiritual.  When we come into Christ, our objective changes from living in the natural . .where we primarily are living in a "reactive" mode.  Which is to say, by the time "I" respond to something, the damage is already done.  I'm just reacting and responding after the fact. 

But when I leave the natural for the spiritual, it's no longer reactive, but "pro" active.  We look for the end from the beginning and when in the spirit, this becomes accessable and we can then "call out" that which isn't as though it is. . .which is faith . . .and we can avert the pitfalls that we'd otherwise become entangled with prior to coming into Christ.

For me, sin is the same way.  when I'm walking in the natural reasoning mind, it's easy to see there is much sin in me, even though I claim to be a follower of Christ . . .who, by the way, is what?  Is he not a "spirit"?  So when I let him transform me and I begin pursuing spiritual things, my natural perspectives transform right along with that.  When I am "in Christ" I am in the Light . .where there is NO DARKNESS. 

But for me to be in Christ, I must be in the spirit . . .because physically, right now, I'm not in Christ, I'm in a cubical in front of a computer screen.  But spiritually, I've left the building.  So, in one realm, yeah, there is sin in me, but in another . . .I can not sin . .so which realm would you choose then to pursue?  Is this ignoring my failures?  Of course not.  I'm well aware they are there, but if Christ is my completion, fulfillment and perfection, why would I then emphasize and dwell on my incompleteness, shortcomings, and failures?

If Christ has made me a king and a priest . .that is where I want to walk.  So in the natural, yeah, there are imperfections in my life.  But in the spirit, I am born again, I am renewed, redeemed and reconciled back to the Father.  It's all in what dimension you choose to walk in.

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

Hiya,

You continue to sin? 

1 John 3:6
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

:eeew:

i think it's literal death, if the last enemy to be abolished is second death then second death can't mean anything good, if we claim the second death has anything positive about, we would condradict ourselves when whe say the last enemy is second death.

i think people think too less about the white throne judgement and too much about second death or the lake of fire, i share A.E. Knoch's view here - it makes the most sense and sounds most biblical.

willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Quote from: willieH on January 21, 2009, 01:49:07 AM
willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

Good points from Thomas Kissinger I thought were pertinent...

"When we don't go on to understand the process of God it makes us
sound as though we believe it is o.k. to remain in sin, rebellion,
and unbelief and still be saved. While it is true that God is going
to draw all men to Him regardless of their rebellion, the fact of the
matter is that their rebellion to Him WILL BE CORRECTED. This is how
they will be drawn to Him.

All must go through justification (calling on the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ), sanctification (being conformed in your mind, will,
and emotions to the image of God), and glorification (have your body
raised to immortality in the same sense that Jesus was raised from
the dead - HE IS THE PATTERN). There are no exceptions. How can God
be all in all if all are not brought through the same process unto
perfection in Him?"  http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/

God's blessing, James.

Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2009, 10:35:46 AM

All must go through justification (calling on the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ), sanctification (being conformed in your mind, will,
and emotions to the image of God), and glorification (have your body
raised to immortality in the same sense that Jesus was raised from
the dead - HE IS THE PATTERN).
God's blessing, James.

So do you believe that those who don't go through justification in this life will be raised again in another human body, in order for the "mind" to be justified/santcified, since the "mind, will, and emotions" are formed when a human body is given "life"?   

and if so, after these people who are living a "second time" are justified/sanctified; will they have to die again in order to be given immortality?? 

i'm not saying u believe this, but wonder how you see "all being sanctified" if this isn't the process? 

For me, I see two ways of getting to salvation;

1.  narrow gate

2.  broad gate


One leads to Life (NOW), never dying (not dying in your sins)

One leads to perpetual shame.  Dying in sins.


Both are God's plan. 


I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification). 


All result in the same end:  Christ; every knee will bow, tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Jer 23:38  And if the burden of Jehovah ye say, Therefore thus said Jehovah: Because of your saying this word, The burden of Jehovah, And I do send unto you, saying, Ye do not say, The burden of Jehovah.

Jer 23:39  Therefore, lo, I--I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!

or another translation

Jer 23:39  I will forget you completely. I will expel you from my presence, along with this city that I gave to you and your ancestors.

Jer 23:40  And I will make you an object of ridicule, and your name will be infamous throughout the ages.' "


sounds to me like as long as there are ages, the shame is present??

:2c:

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2009, 04:05:52 PM
When I come into all things are passed away, I see this as my old way of thinking.  My old way of diciphering, my old way of reasoning . . .it's all been transformed . . ."behold, I will make all things new"  he didn't say he'll make all new things . . . but he'll make all things new.  I still think . . .God hasn't removed my thinking . . .he's just renewed "how" I think.

We've conversed on other threads about the idea of dimensions.  Natural, moral/corporate, and spiritual.  When we come into Christ, our objective changes from living in the natural . .where we primarily are living in a "reactive" mode.  Which is to say, by the time "I" respond to something, the damage is already done.  I'm just reacting and responding after the fact. 

But when I leave the natural for the spiritual, it's no longer reactive, but "pro" active.  We look for the end from the beginning and when in the spirit, this becomes accessable and we can then "call out" that which isn't as though it is. . .which is faith . . .and we can avert the pitfalls that we'd otherwise become entangled with prior to coming into Christ.  :thumbsup:

For me, sin is the same way.  when I'm walking in the natural reasoning mind, it's easy to see there is much sin in me, even though I claim to be a follower of Christ . . .who, by the way, is what?  Is he not a "spirit"?  So when I let him transform me and I begin pursuing spiritual things, my natural perspectives transform right along with that.  When I am "in Christ" I am in the Light . .where there is NO DARKNESS. 

But for me to be in Christ, I must be in the spirit . . .because physically, right now, I'm not in Christ, I'm in a cubical in front of a computer screen.  But spiritually, I've left the building.  So, in one realm, yeah, there is sin in me, but in another . . .I can not sin . .so which realm would you choose then to pursue?  Is this ignoring my failures?  Of course not.  I'm well aware they are there, but if Christ is my completion, fulfillment and perfection, why would I then emphasize and dwell on my incompleteness, shortcomings, and failures?

If Christ has made me a king and a priest . .that is where I want to walk.  So in the natural, yeah, there are imperfections in my life.  But in the spirit, I am born again, I am renewed, redeemed and reconciled back to the Father.  It's all in what dimension you choose to walk in.

This is probably the best "born again" offering I have read... must soak it in...  :cloud9:

Boy brother N... well said!  :cloud9:  Thanks for sharing this... Many here lately, are at the firing line, ...shooting out truth to those who would love to get in the way of it!   

lies---> :faint: :Shoot: <---truth



:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

Zeek, not sure I have a definitve answer to your question.  It's a good question though.  I was really addressing the sanctification aspect, which IMO, is connected to what Nathan's talking about, walking in the Spirit, becoming more like Him.

Quote from: Zeek on January 26, 2009, 03:40:19 PM
For me, I see two ways of getting to salvation;

1.  narrow gate

2.  broad gate


One leads to Life (NOW), never dying (not dying in your sins)

One leads to perpetual shame.  Dying in sins.

Both are God's plan. 

I don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification). 

All result in the same end:  Christ; every knee will bow, tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Jer 23:38  And if the burden of Jehovah ye say, Therefore thus said Jehovah: Because of your saying this word, The burden of Jehovah, And I do send unto you, saying, Ye do not say, The burden of Jehovah.

Jer 23:39  Therefore, lo, I--I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,

Jer 23:40  And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten!

or another translation

Jer 23:39  I will forget you completely. I will expel you from my presence, along with this city that I gave to you and your ancestors.

Jer 23:40  And I will make you an object of ridicule, and your name will be infamous throughout the ages.' "


sounds to me like as long as there are ages, the shame is present??

:2c:

Hiya Zeek!

You got it right.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

QuoteI don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

:2c: :msealed:

Quote from: YoungYuni on February 06, 2009, 10:08:30 AM

QuoteI don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

Was Jesus speaking about gates in this life only or also in the afterlife? -> makes a huge difference...
Many go trough the wide gate in this life. When eventually all are saved (in the afterlife) they all passed through the narrow gate?

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2009, 10:25:21 AM

Quote from: YoungYuni on February 06, 2009, 10:08:30 AM

QuoteI don't see where those who go through the wide gate NOW, later in "another life" go through the narrow gate (sanctification).

Jesus said it was one or the other, not both.

Anyone who says differently is not a Christian Universalist, but a Universalist because they obviously are not listening to the words of Christ.

Was Jesus speaking about gates in this life only or also in the afterlife? -> makes a huge difference...
Many go trough the wide gate in this life. When eventually all are saved (in the afterlife) they all passed through the narrow gate?

There is two ways into the Kingdom of Heaven.

1) The narrow gate, few will find it and enter through.
2) The wide gate, many will find it and enter through.

Jesus made it clear only few will make it through the narrow gate.

The apostle Paul said the same thing.

Whoever builds their house with gold, silver, precious gems (talking about heavenly things which do not perish) versus whoever builds their house with wood, hay and stubble (talking about the earthly things that will perish).

Whoever plants a harvest of blessing versus the one who plants a harvest of thorns and thistles.

Whoever lives after the sinful nature will die, whoever lives after the Spirit will live.

One will enter the Kingdom with reward, the other will enter the Kingdom with loss.

Jesus died so that all mankind can enter the Kingdom of God; Jesus died so that none would be lost, both still enter the Kingdom of God just how the journey plays out is up to the choices a person makes.

It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.

No wonder Christians do not embrace Universalism, Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's and tangents that have no foundation on a biblical basis, and it is embarrassing having to correct the unsound doctrines that seem to be coming out of this machine.

Psalm 62:12
12And lovingkindness is Yours, O Lord, for You recompense a man according to his work.

1 Corinthians 3:8
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

1 Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

Galatians 6:4
4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Revelation 2:18-23
18 "To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Revelation 3:1-3, 14-16
1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

:mblush: :mshock:

Quote from: YoungYuni on February 06, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.
...........
Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's
...........
But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

YC,
If that's adressed to me you are mistaking. I was asking questions. Not stating an (assumed) fact.

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2009, 10:33:14 PM

Quote from: YoungYuni on February 06, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
It is very concerning when people start adding their political correctness to the Gospel.
...........
Universalists have gone off into their own little agenda's
...........
But what do I know, it just seems that if anyone points out the obvious that all people are treated equally and are judged according to their deeds, they always get attacked in this forum, pretty insecure bunch of people.

YC,
If that's adressed to me you are mistaking. I was asking questions. Not stating an (assumed) fact.

Hiya,

Nope that wasn't addressed to you.

It was a general statement concerning those who would ignore Jesus and follow their own ideas of how things should be.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on January 21, 2009, 01:52:12 AM

Quote from: willieH on January 21, 2009, 01:49:07 AM
willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:



:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

                                                         :gthumbsup:
The first condition of immortality is death!

peacemaker

Quote from: willieH on February 07, 2009, 05:19:54 AM
willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on January 21, 2009, 01:52:12 AM

Quote from: willieH on January 21, 2009, 01:49:07 AM
willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

Hi Willie, i'm sure T will have his own thots, but this is how I see it.

I know u don't like only lists of scripture; but see if it flows for u


Rom 9:3  For I could pray to be accursed from Christ on behalf of my brethren, my human kinsfolk--for such the Israelites are.

Rom 9:4  To them belongs recognition as God's sons, and they have His glorious Presence and the Covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the Temple service, and the ancient Promises.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them  be, but life from the dead?  

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead (imo; those cut off, the bretheren Paul wished he could be exchanged with). It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Paul (a  believer) imo, didn't see himself as part of the "dead", as he had

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Co 15:44  It (old covenenant Israel) is sown a natural body (ministration of death); it is raised a spiritual body (spiritual covenant). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (minstration of death); and afterward that which is spiritual (new covenant).

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we (imo, all Israel) shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren,  that flesh and blood (imo: ministration of death) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (ministration of death) inherit incorruption.

but Paul saw himself here

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (imo, Paul was not considering himself as flesh and blood at this time)

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We (imo, all Israel/bretheren) shall not all sleep, but we (all Israel) shall all be changed, (old to new)

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (those cut off bretheren per Romans 11), and we (all Israel) shall be changed. (receiving be LIFE from the dead)

1Co 15:53  For this corruptible (minstration of death) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality (new spiritual covenant).

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible (ministration of death) shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (receiving of them be, LIFE from the Dead).  (out with the old, in with the new)

1Co 15:55  O death (minstration of death, old covenant), where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


So, imo; Paul was saying; we believers have been translated already into the kingdom, from death to life; and my bretheren (who are cut off) will be received and this will complete the end of the minstration of death, and the receiving of them, will mean LIFE for all. 


and Faith and hope were a part of the equation; as Paul "died daily" for service as a first fruit; waiting for the "end of the old" (harvest) when his fellow bretheren (old covenant Israel) would be received, and "Death is completely swallowed up in victory".  NO more old, in with the NEW.

Quote from: willieH on February 07, 2009, 05:19:54 AM
willieH: Hi brother G... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on January 21, 2009, 01:52:12 AM

Quote from: willieH on January 21, 2009, 01:49:07 AM
willieH: Hi Shadowland... :hithere:

Quote from: Shadowland on January 20, 2009, 05:51:40 AM
1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and turth in not in us. :mblush:

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen:for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Does this mean that we just think we are born of God????   :sigh: Since we all do still sin. :dontknow:

No man HAS PUT ON INCORRUPTION... until that DAY, ...SIN... will exist, even in the believer which is UNABLE to OBSERVE his/her experience from a PERFECT viewpoint...

No man is BORN AGAIN... the RESURRECTION is our "REBIRTH"...

"BORN AGAIN" (IMHO) is a false claim... and I cannot see that it may be proven by Scripture that it occurs in THIS LIFE... (I could be wrong, and if I am, prove it...)

Which is WHY John and Paul noted that SIN was still present in BELIEVERS, and in need to be confessed...  :happygrin:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

willie Bro..havent we *****put on Christ**** :icon_flower:

What of what PAUL said (1 Cor 15:51-54) bro...

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

Hey bro, I am honestly looking for you to explain this to me... I wish to learn...  :cloud9:

It appears to me as if PAUL is speaking of a future manifestation YET to occur... many "shall's" in this speech, ...which also seems to me, that what he is speaking of, ...is not an "ALREADY IS" type of situation...

He is saying to these people that (vs 52) ..."we SHALL all be CHANGED", as if this is NOT a CURRENT scenario that in fact, has already been realized and IS, ...firmly IN PLACE...  :dontknow:

He says:  (vs 53)..."THIS CORRUPTIBLE"... must put on "INCORRUPTION", ...as if that has yet to be "PUT ON"...  :Chinscratch:

Do you see this as DONE?  Why would PAUL speak in "FORWARDS" such as "SHALL this" and "SHALL that"?  If this was already a DONE DEAL... why would he not speak in "PRESENT manifestation" terminology?

Why wouldn't he be saying WE ARE ALL CHANGED, ...WE HAVE put on INCORRUPTION, etc...  It wouldnt be a FAITH & HOPE situation, rather it would be a DECLARATION of FACT, wouldn't it?   :dunno:

Did the LAST "TRUMP"... already get "TRUMPED"?  :dunno2:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:newb:  willieH    :NewB1: 

Hi Bud
Nice to see about Bro :icon_flower:

Didnt respond to this a while back as I understand ya veiw point...having understood myself it this way for sometime, but you know how it goes..something start ya thinking, then something else gets added and so on..and its still happening


We touched on areas before , just kind a dropped a seed to see ya response on how you understand ..as im learning too



The  process -for mine-is Moving from DEATH to LiFE, Even while we live,  comin to understand this  surely aided in how I see the second Death and those who dwell ( in Hades\hell) as  whitewashed tombs, dead men walking ..by which I come to see that Eternal Life is NOW(=to KNOW HIM), as we dwell in this flesh type body and Immortality when we don our spiritual one


Again for mine below is how ive consolated certain scriptures, which youve brought up in ya posts

As one who has come to learn through patterns bro, theres a Pattern which shows Only God Justifys us BY THE words OF HIS MOUTH in SAYING we are PERFECT,as Christ states

Mat 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." 



ThE FOLLOWING patterns seem to  relate to the PERFECT MAN NOT OFFENDING IN word(tongue)by *****SAYING*****




1 Jo 1:8  If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and truth in not in us. :

BUT..

1Jo 3:9    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  :icon_queen: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

the patern is alos shown in Job bro...where God declares Job PERFECT three times , but by Jobs own Mouth he declares

Job 9:20***** If I ****justify ***myself - mine -own mouth- shall condemn me: ****IF I -SAY-, -I am perfect-,**** it shall also -prove me- perverse.

Now again with Paul...

Phl 3:12 Not that****** I have****** already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

but he does declare others before him as perfect...

Phl 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Seems James and Paul realised that the Tongue needed bridling

Jam 3:2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:[/u] lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Anyway bro...


To Put on Christ , that is Casting off corruption by PUTTING on Incorruption can be seen elsewhere ,speaks to me the same bro

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 

Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to [fulfill its] lusts.

al 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. 
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

So for me we have put ON HIS clothing, having moved from DEATH to life ..now

Jhn 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love [his] brother abides in death. 

The carnallity which enmity\hatred \hell\death swallowed UP in Life , no longer dwelling in that previous abode , NOW walking iN Love AND THE LIGHT of HIM in US=God

That death has been swallowed in LIFE..

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Christ  the Resurrection UNTO LIFE...

SO YEA Bro.. for mine I see it as a done thing. :icon_flower:

so for now bro..this is where im at with this...but still learning bro :HeartThrob:

Hi T, good morning;

I think too, for me; it's realizing the "work" of believers; baptism for the dead.  Through them, mercy to all. 

Mat 20:23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

I see Paul as not so much looking inward and saying; I'm not "inwardly" done because "I still sin";

but yet "my work is still needed as I have a function as a first fruit, to bring in the harvest".

So as long as there was a "old and new covenant" side by side; his work was not done yet;  LIFE (for all) was not yet a reality,  and Death had not yet been swallowed up ", as the old still needed to vanish away. (it had vanished away among believers, but not yet for those stuck in old covenant mindset) 

Isa 51:6  Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be forever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


2Co 4:12  So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


make any sense?? 

willieH: Hi brother G...

Thanks for your answer bro... but in all honesty, I don't think you answered my questions...  :dunno:

I had a complete answer written to you and lost it... so here it is in a nutshell:

As I see it, ...PAUL and JOHN both noted FUTURE or time-related PROCESSING to their hearers... not one time events...

JOHN said:  "we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have no sin".   And: "if we CONFESS our SIN, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"... And: "If any man SIN, he has an advocate with the Father"

Why is all this necessary if SINLESSNESS (putting on CHRIST/changing from death to life) is really, a "DONE DEAL"?  :dontknow:

PAUL said... "at the LAST TRUMP" we would all be changed... if this is as you view it, then though the LAST TRUMP already is past, ...why do BELIEVING men continue to CHANGE?   Again, I see this as a PROCESS not a one time event... The LAST TRUMP ...ALREADY IS... in ETERNAL terms, but in finite (time oriented) TERMS, is yet to be manifest...

As I see it, DEATH (sinfulness) to LIFE (sinlessness) is a PROCESS... in which CHRIST is REVEALED from the inside out... over the period we call a LIFETIME... not some "poof" and everything is changed event...

It is also very interesting to me that PHYSICALLY we move from LIFE (birth) to DEATH, but SPIRITUALLY from DEATH to LIFE...

"Putting on CHRIST" is a PROCESS (IMO) not a one time event... the admonitions in the Scriptures you noted about this are recommendations of a PROCESS... being spoken to BELIEVERS... "Put on the whole Armor of God",  "Cast off the works of darkness"... are a PROCESSING, not "done deals"... for these to whom are being spoken to by Paul & John, ...are already BELIEVERS, already BAPTIZED, etc...

I know the Scripture says "If any man is IN CHRIST, behold, ALL THINGS are BECOME NEW"... but this is a PROCESS being spoken of "BECOMING" within the process of TIME, ...what ALREADY IS in ETERNITY... Otherwise we would be INSTANTLY transformed in EVERY WAY... which is NOT the case, and WHY we differ with one another even in this thread, ...despite the fact that we both in THIS present time, ...BELIEVE!

The POTTER molds the CLAY within a "TIME CONSUMING" effort, which is done stroke by stroke until it is COMPLETE... and (IMHO) ...for NO man, this is a "one time event"...

No more than a POT appears made by a POTTER instantaneously... It is stroked and MOLDED, then FIRED... then when all these things are found, DONE, it has then "become" a POT...

Peace bro...  :cloud9:



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel  shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

2Tim 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living  and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.

(living:  Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. )

dead:  (Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar)

Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"

Act 26:6-8 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?

Act 28:20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain."

Eze 37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Eze 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Eze 37:11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.


Eze 37:22  And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:


Eze 37:27  My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28  And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.




Jas 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

These believers understood that the kingdom did not come by observation

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Flesh and blood i.e., "the natural order" via the old covenat system with types and shadows, could not enter into the kingdom. 


1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

The first fruits were given eyes and ears to see (spiritual ears/eyes) that Christ's kingdom was spiritual and could only be entered via rebirth (spiritual). 


2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (natural); but the things which are not seen are eternal. (spiritual)

Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The resurrection of the dead was the manifestation of the long awaited promised deliverance of Israel.  This is a new covenantal reality.

"Judaizers wanted covenant change without regeneration, they wanted covenant renewal without losing their religious trappings of circumcision, law observance, earthly city, temple, priesthood and sacrificial system etc. These were all vested interests and vestiges of the "old world" that Jesus prophesied [Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17, 21] were coming to and end. Had these Mosaic remnants remained AND the resurrection being past THEN clearly Paul's eschatological "dying and rising" in Christ as per Romans 6 was complete, yet this cuts right across Paul's "being raised" in resurrection life in that eschatological and transitional generation, something that he writes in 1Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3 as being present tense realities – thus fullness HAD NOT come; such would only be the case with the Parousia.

What has been touted as the rapture has been ruptured, for it was in fact the resurrection, and this all occurred in the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem which was the outward sign of end of the old covenant Mosaic age. And those ones believing and surviving to the end [Mt 24:13] was this assurance given:"

1Pet 1:5 ...who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



http://www.pantelism.com/RaptureRuptureorResurrection.htm



For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:



Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.


Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

Quote from: Sarah on February 08, 2009, 05:12:37 AM
Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

Hi Sarah,

I hear ya, I lean toward resurrection, being Israel's resurrection; from the dead (ministration of death), but I still ponder it all.   :grin:

One thing I am sure of though

In HIM we move, live and have our being.

Blessings

Z

willieH: Howdy... Z  :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 04:41:54 AM

For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

This doesn't fly for me either brother Z...

You AND the Scriptures you use, employ TIME-oriented terms...  And coupled with CHRIST noting that He came NOT to destroy the Law and Prophets which was the Old Covenant, ...but to FULFILL... Fulfilling is a PROCESS, and IMO... that which is engaged in each of us... and that FULFILLING is a continuing set of events... otherwise you have no FURTHER inspiration to gain of Scripture, nor will you be further molded by the POTTER...

Which places you in a position of being either ...already PERFECT or potentially mistaken...   :dunno:

Sorry brudda, ...datshowsIseesit...  :thumbsup:

Peace bro...  :cloud9:



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Quote from: willieH on February 08, 2009, 05:41:15 AM
willieH: Howdy... Z  :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 04:41:54 AM

For me, the reason for the "shall" and "soon", "at hand" future tense language is summed up with this verse:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old (flesh and blood) is ready to vanish away.

Resurrection imo, is covenental, not a "post mortem" life.

This doesn't fly for me either brother Z...

You AND the Scriptures you use, employ TIME-oriented terms...  And coupled with CHRIST noting that He came NOT to destroy the Law and Prophets which was the Old Covenant, ...but to FULFILL... Fulfilling is a PROCESS, and IMO... that which is engaged in each of us... and that FULFILLING is a continuing set of events... otherwise you have no FURTHER inspiration to gain of Scripture, nor will you be further molded by the POTTER...

Which places you in a position of being either ...already PERFECT or potentially mistaken...   :dunno:

Sorry brudda, ...datshowsIseesit...  :thumbsup:

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Covenental change opens the doors to an never ending journey.

Love knows no bounds my friend.

You make me smile every time I see Z  :eek:

zeek is my son's nick name.  "zeekarooney"  :grin:


The journey into the depths of LOVE is amazing. 

Hope fulfilled is a TREE of LIFE. 

Quote from: willieH on February 08, 2009, 03:30:37 AM
willieH: Hi brother G...

Thanks for your answer bro... but in all honesty, I don't think you answered my questions...  :dunno:

I had a complete answer written to you and lost it... so here it is in a nutshell:

As I see it, ...PAUL and JOHN both noted FUTURE or time-related PROCESSING to their hearers... not one time events...

JOHN said:  "we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have no sin".   And: "if we CONFESS our SIN, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"... And: "If any man SIN, he has an advocate with the Father"

Why is all this necessary if SINLESSNESS (putting on CHRIST/changing from death to life) is really, a "DONE DEAL"?  :dontknow:

PAUL said... "at the LAST TRUMP" we would all be changed... if this is as you view it, then though the LAST TRUMP already is past, ...why do BELIEVING men continue to CHANGE?   Again, I see this as a PROCESS not a one time event... The LAST TRUMP ...ALREADY IS... in ETERNAL terms, but in finite (time oriented) TERMS, is yet to be manifest...

As I see it, DEATH (sinfulness) to LIFE (sinlessness) is a PROCESS... in which CHRIST is REVEALED from the inside out... over the period we call a LIFETIME... not some "poof" and everything is changed event...

It is also very interesting to me that PHYSICALLY we move from LIFE (birth) to DEATH, but SPIRITUALLY from DEATH to LIFE...

"Putting on CHRIST" is a PROCESS (IMO) not a one time event... the admonitions in the Scriptures you noted about this are recommendations of a PROCESS... being spoken to BELIEVERS... "Put on the whole Armor of God",  "Cast off the works of darkness"... are a PROCESSING, not "done deals"... for these to whom are being spoken to by Paul & John, ...are already BELIEVERS, already BAPTIZED, etc...

I know the Scripture says "If any man is IN CHRIST, behold, ALL THINGS are BECOME NEW"... but this is a PROCESS being spoken of "BECOMING" within the process of TIME, ...what ALREADY IS in ETERNITY... Otherwise we would be INSTANTLY transformed in EVERY WAY... which is NOT the case, and WHY we differ with one another even in this thread, ...despite the fact that we both in THIS present time, ...BELIEVE!

The POTTER molds the CLAY within a "TIME CONSUMING" effort, which is done stroke by stroke until it is COMPLETE... and (IMHO) ...for NO man, this is a "one time event"...

No more than a POT appears made by a POTTER instantaneously... It is stroked and MOLDED, then FIRED... then when all these things are found, DONE, it has then "become" a POT...

Peace bro...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Hi Brud., :icon_flower:

Not Unlike Zeek, I kinda veiw the scripts very much for the folk of their day ,ie moving from one Covenant to another..

Folk being very much conditioned by such previous bondage...ushered into a New Understanding...

Therefore moving from the DEATH of being UNDER the Old , to being made ALIVE in HIM being the New..., PERFECT in the sence of being made  WHOLE\Complete in HIM...US in HIM , Him In Us...

For one minute im not saying , each of us are not growing in HIM, but tht process could be a Moment or 50 yrs considering how long we remain in there fleshy bodies..which kinda brings me to the Theif on the cross..along with those those who toiled in the HEAT of the day but recieved the Same reward who entered later.......

Any ways Brudder tis where Im at for now.... :icon_flower:


And good to see you back posting more frequently Bud....These Grand children can sure eat in to ya time...Got our first Due in June,..just hoping im about to see the young one.... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:.

The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 08, 2009, 06:26:25 PM
The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 06:37:35 PM
For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 
[/quote]

And when do those knees bow?
I don't see much knees bowing. And most of the bowing knees bow to false gods.
And it stays that way until those people die (except for the few that convert before death)
So when and how are they convinced to bow if they are out of LoF?

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 06:37:35 PM

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 08, 2009, 06:26:25 PM
The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

Hey Zeek,

From what I understand, the trial of faith that Peter speaks of IS the lake of fire, spoken of as "fiery trials." This fire is the very presence of God, the life we live in him, and the message we bring to the world. I see Noah as a type of Christ, who, like Christ, was persecuted while preparing the ark, and as Christ prepared a baptism. He gathered all that would be saved into the ark, just as Christ gathers all who will be saved into God. The flood waters come, and while those in the ark are IN the water, they are not hurt of it. Only those outside are. Likewise, when the fire came in Pentecost, those gathered in Christ into God are IN the fire, but not hurt of it. Only those outside are. I do not see us as a type of Noah, but rather of all forms of life gathered by him into the ark, representing God. Of course, I am by no means above having my thinking adjusted, so please, if you see something that I am not, feel free to continue to evaluate this.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2009, 07:02:10 PM

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 06:37:35 PM
For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

And when do those knees bow?
I don't see much knees bowing. And most of the bowing knees bow to false gods.
And it stays that way until those people die (except for the few that convert before death)
So when and how are they convinced to bow if they are out of LoF?
[/quote]

Hi WW,

In time every knee bows, from what I understand. For some, it happens in their life, but for most, it happens after physical death. The best way I can describe it is that now, believers have the spirit in us, which is represented as tongues of fire. The message we bear is one of fire that purifies those who receive it, and torments those who don't. To be in the very presence of a believer as he or she lives their life is like a fire to them. Like you said, the vast majority do not bend the knee in this life. When they die, what I understand is that they are then brought to that place of bowing and acknowledging the Lord by being in his very presence, a consuming fire that is unbridled and at it's fullest. No one will be able to withstand seeing and experiencing his love and glory without change taking place. I do not see the bowing of the knee as a one time event that everyone does, but rather, as something everyone does over time, each in their own order.

Maybe you might not agree, but can you at least understand where I am coming from?

Ron

Ron,

Let's say I'm neutral about your answer. :winkgrin:

Tell me when I'm wrong.
Can i summarize your answer as follows:
Everyone is in LoF right now.
Some choose to kneel in this life/LoF
Those who don't will do so after death.

If a religious noob so an extra question.
The ET understanding is simple. Kneel in this life=heaven. Don't kneel=eternal hell

The UR understanding of some is equal to the above ET vision but with spiritual fire/teaching
But you seem to have another version. "Hell on earth" plus some extra afterlife teaching.
Again I'm not arguing. Just collection diffrent opions....

"Fear the Lord" etc.
Eternal ET hell is kinda extreem.
But what I understand from your explanation is the other extreme.
Live like the devil. Die. Meet Jesus. Hi dude; You are real! All sins are forgiven.

You are not the first one on this forum to write such an opion; but I stil don't understand  :dunno:

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 08, 2009, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Zeek on February 08, 2009, 06:37:35 PM

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 08, 2009, 06:26:25 PM
The first Adam brought death into the world.

The last Adam brings life into the world.

The last Adam undoes what the first Adam did.

The first death is the death and everything associated with it that Adam introduced on the day he sinned.

The second death is the death of that first death and everything associated with it.

The second death undoes what the first death did.

The second death, that consuming lake of fire, is none other than the Lord himself, expressed through his body on earth, who, by his death on the cross, started a process of sending fire on the earth that extends to every human. We are those who dwell in the everlasting fire, as Isaiah points out.

There is more to it than that, but this is just one facet of what scripture teaches about it. Everyone goes through the second death now, but only those who go willingly, spoken of as overcomers, will not be hurt of it, nor will it have power over them. For most, when that fire shows up their works, it will be a loss, with much anguish, but ultimately, a realization and subsequent bowing of the knee to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, done willingly and from the heart.

Ron

Noah spent years building the ark, having his faith tried, while being persecuted by those not given faith. 

same as here:  Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

He was rewarded when the "rain/fire"' came, being raised above the waters, receiving the end of their faith; the salvation of their souls

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If we are all in the LOF now, then when was the trial of believers faith prior to the "fire/rains"? 

Hey Zeek,

From what I understand, the trial of faith that Peter speaks of IS the lake of fire, spoken of as "fiery trials." This fire is the very presence of God, the life we live in him, and the message we bring to the world. I see Noah as a type of Christ, who, like Christ, was persecuted while preparing the ark, and as Christ prepared a baptism. He gathered all that would be saved into the ark, just as Christ gathers all who will be saved into God. The flood waters come, and while those in the ark are IN the water, they are not hurt of it. Only those outside are. Likewise, when the fire came in Pentecost, those gathered in Christ into God are IN the fire, but not hurt of it. Only those outside are. I do not see us as a type of Noah, but rather of all forms of life gathered by him into the ark, representing God. Of course, I am by no means above having my thinking adjusted, so please, if you see something that I am not, feel free to continue to evaluate this.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron

Hi Ron, I respectfully disagree, but me too could be wrong. 

1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

for me, flood is similtude of LOF/second death

2Pe 2:6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds);

2Pe 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Pe 2:13  And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2Pe 2:17  These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; an

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psa 21:8  Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

Psa 21:9  Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ok, last post for now, i think people get tired of the "scripture" only approach. 

Psa 6:10  Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

Psa 7:8  The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

Psa 7:9  Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Psa 7:10  My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Psa 7:11  God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 21:9  Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.



Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.

Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up  from the gates of death:

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Psa 9:14  That I may show forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.

Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.

Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish forever.

If the lake of fire is now, then no one can repent and enter the ark, as the door is shut:


Gen 7:16  And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.


prior to the RAIN,

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

but once the door is shut:

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Zeek,

Much to think about there, and I for sure will be considering and trying to understand what you are sharing. Thanks so much.

Ron

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2009, 07:55:03 PM
Ron,

Let's say I'm neutral about your answer. :winkgrin:

Tell me when I'm wrong.
Can i summarize your answer as follows:
Everyone is in LoF right now.
Some choose to kneel in this life/LoF
Those who don't will do so after death.

If a religious noob so an extra question.
The ET understanding is simple. Kneel in this life=heaven. Don't kneel=eternal hell

The UR understanding of some is equal to the above ET vision but with spiritual fire/teaching
But you seem to have another version. "Hell on earth" plus some extra afterlife teaching.
Again I'm not arguing. Just collection diffrent opions....

"Fear the Lord" etc.
Eternal ET hell is kinda extreem.
But what I understand from your explanation is the other extreme.
Live like the devil. Die. Meet Jesus. Hi dude; You are real! All sins are forgiven.

You are not the first one on this forum to write such an opion; but I stil don't understand  :dunno:

Well, everything except the "Meet Jesus. Hi dude; you are real! All sins are forgiven" part is what I see. While not totally clear to me, I do see scripture speaking of mental torment and anguish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and punishment being spoken of. Exactly how it all fits in I have such a finite understanding of it. What I see is that after death there will be a period of time where one will still be in the lake of fire, for I don't simply see it as expressed on earth by God, but that it ultimately is God himself, in Christ. How long that will be I don't know. Scripture speaks about it as a "portion" that those who are thrown into it receive. I also see this expressed by the Lord speaking of some receiving many stripes, and others few. Not literal stripes, but nevertheless a punishment of various degrees and for various lengths of time.

And so we all still sit under the Master's feet to learn of him.  :happygrin:

Ron

Ron, thanks for you view on this confusing topic (for me).

I'll store the view in my head with the other puzzle pieces. I'm sure that suddenly all pieces fall together.
They usually do  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Sarah on February 08, 2009, 05:12:37 AM
Zeek, I enjoy your posts, but it is hard to make the resurrection in 1 Corithians 15 all about coventual change and nothing about post-mortem life. The point of 1 Corinthians 15ish seems to be comforting those who think that fellow Christians who have died have missed out on the resurrection. I understand that those coming out of their graves written in Ezekial was a national resurrection, which I believe was accomplished during the 'silent years', but that doesn't negate the reality of a resurrection of the individual person in the after-life. Paul then goes on to verify that Christ is raised presently, even though He isn't seen, He is risen. He comforts them in saying that those standing there would in fact not preceed those who have passed on. He also says that if our hope is in this life only 'we of all men are most pitiable.' Sorry, just my little rant. When I try to make that group of scriptures all about 'covential change' it feels forced if you will.

love, Sarah

Hi Sarah,

I'm reading through this PDF book, thot u might be interested.  or anyone else here,

re: Israel's resurrection vs. individual bodily resurrection

http://gospelthemes.com/res.htm

"Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all SLEEP, but we SHALL all be CHANGED, ...in a moment, in the twinkling of any eye, ...AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet SHALL SOUND, and the DEAD SHALL be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we SHALL all be CHANGED. 

For THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY... so WHEN ...this corruptible SHALL have put on incorruption, AND THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that IS WRITTEN:  DEATH is swallowed up in victory..."

IMO I again see all of Scripture as explaining the process from the beginning of creation to the finished Masterpiece, Jesus Christ, of each individual person. It includes much more than that but my main concern is seeing Gods message to me as a person. Scripture is meaningless to me otherwise. It would be like having a very good refrigerator manual when I need to know about my car if the Bible isn't God speaking to us about what and who we are.

God is showing us a mystery.

We shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

It will all seem like we were in a dream. It will happen that quick. God speaking life is like a trumpet sound. As He speaks we are made.

The rest is all what God is doing to us. He is putting on touches of incorruption and immortality.

cp

QuoteWe shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on February 15, 2009, 01:29:39 AM

QuoteWe shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

Obviously I don't get it all either and I appreciate your thoughts about my thoughts.

Taf, I really looked at sleep here as death also. In my mind it read like God saying......Hey, you all are not going to remain sleeping, you are all going to be changed..........

In my own life this is very true. I once was lost and now I'm found or compared to the finished product I start out dead or asleep.

Where exactly, Taf, are we in disagreement?

PS Hey where you refer to the dead rising first.....this has confused me a bit as I see it is only the dead that will rise at all. The living are already risen!

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 15, 2009, 01:39:46 AM

Quote from: Taffy on February 15, 2009, 01:29:39 AM

QuoteWe shall not all sleep, we shall all be changed = we won't always be like we are...corruptible, mortal, carnal minded......

ya Know Cp. This really Bugs me as too me it doesnt FIT...

To sleep means to be DEAD,...dead to KNOWING HIM....OR in the GRAVE, hades.


we speak  of spiritual Talk, BUT then refer to that of the Natural ONCE MORE...No more than that Thread yesterday on WALKING through WALLS etc..

For me your either DEAD or alive..Kinda makes the basic Logic....

My Life HID in HIM, being Born of HIM ,im ALIVE......so whos sleeping...I see those without BEING those sleeping...I also See Christ In All men also sleeping till AROUSED..., IF HES sleeping then we too are DEAD...

THE dead RISE FIRST....Those  IN HIM which SLEEP...HES the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD...

hopefully soon ill be shown clearer , therefore will be able to expound more...

we move from DEATH to LIFE...now...
soory Bud as with talking with Willie...certain things just dont fit for mine...its just where I am Right NOW

:icon_flower:

Obviously I don't get it all either and I appreciate your thoughts about my thoughts.

Taf, I really looked at sleep here as death also. In my mind it read like God saying......Hey, you all are not going to remain sleeping, you are all going to be changed..........

In my own life this is very true. I once was lost and now I'm found or compared to the finished product I start out dead or asleep.

Where exactly, Taf, are we in disagreement?

PS Hey where you refer to the dead rising first.....this has confused me a bit as I see it is only the dead that will rise at all. The living are already risen!

cp

Thanks Cp..

If we take the Natural DEATH being hades\the grave , as In the dead KNOW NOTHING for they SLEEP...APPLY THAT now to the spiritual

To me being dead , is dead NOT knowing HIM,? In simple terms.BLIND, DEAF, thsoe NOT HEARING HIS voice

A trumpet, a warning\message or Voice..Says to me, AWAKE from sleep,, moving from the DEATH of the OLD C to the LIFE in the NEW...
WHO OTHER than the DEAD does this speak of?..for those In HIM, The TRUE Shepherd HEAR HIS voice..

LIFE is who HE IS.......For Mine the GOD of the Living NOT the dead....the DEAD, those NOT knowing HIM roused from sleep TO KNOW  HIS VOICE...

I dont see soul sleep as MY soul is ALIVE NOW IN HIM..I used too, but no more...which opens up other issues..hence im learning...tis what I see NOW..what is ..is now...


As for disagreement Bro..I dont Know , just maybe the terms we use :dontknow:

Arise MY eyes lest I sleep a DEATH

Psa 13:3 Consider [and] hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the [sleep of] death;


Yes Cp...why would those ALIVE be risen ,Tis applicable only to the DEAD surely?

Could it be BOTH the Living and the DEAD are In Christ? for TRUE LIFE is HID in HIM?

Those being withOUT= DEAD to those who are WITH = ALIVE in HIM?

Could It be Paul , Giving HOPE for the Lost? hope TO ALL WHO ARE with and without?

Those DEAD Being risen now  IN the Clouds and those who REMAIN alive ( messengers with HIM) TOGETHER AS ONE?

:icon_flower:

Taf, you wrote....

is dead NOT knowing HIM,? In simple terms.BLIND, DEAF, thsoe NOT HEARING HIS voice

This is key to me. I am being made. I once did not know him as you describe yet now I am seeing and hearing something. I feel kind of alive. I look forward to another home which to me is the spiritual realm, the realm of God, the realm of peace and contentment, the realm of life.

I just re-read your thoughts about the dead rising first. Even that which is alive in me seems trapped in a dead world yet at some point all will rise, first the dead, then the living will rise into newness of life as a whole.

Taf, are you the one who wrote on another thread about the words nowhere and now here? Was it Peacemaker? Anyway, that was interesting. Kind of like evil and live and devil and lived and so on. Words are funny things!

cp

Greetings

Christ is the fire within that if we do not "quench the spirit" will do its work in us mortifying the deeds of the flesh so that......... THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST !!!

The first resurrection is for now and blessed are those of the first resurrection and they will reign with Christ (through Christ in them) in this time (our lives on earth and in a body of flesh).

The second resurrection is what happens to everyone immediately following their physical death as all of the dead both small and great are resurrected before the Great White Throne where those not found written in the Book of Life are tossed into the Lake of Fire. This is not a thousand years later as taught by most but "the next day" to everyone as soon as they experience what is normally called to be when after someone dies and has a funeral.

While we have Christ within as one spirit the Lake of Fire is as the voice of many waters with each drop of water being a manifested son of God..........

One is either drowning a second death in this sea of many waters or they are what makes up this "voice of many waters"  aka Lake of Fire but ALL ARE IN THE SAME PLACE (dispensation of His Administration)

The above was prophesied of back in Luke

Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.[/b]

Blessings

Doug

A good word from J. Preston Eby;

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH!
The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam.   Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist.

God's blessing, James.

Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22
"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6
"During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11
"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10
"Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15
"When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22
"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39
"If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48
"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18
"At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29
"However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4
"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7
"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9
"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14
"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17
"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21
"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8
"as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22
"When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14
"because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12
"Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25
"If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16
"The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9
"But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18
" Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5
"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6
"This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6
"My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10
"The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14
"Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17
"A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5
"Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10
"The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33
"Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5
"He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4
"For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13
"Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4
"But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41
"For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7
"I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12
"He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7
"The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9
"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23
"He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21
"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31
"The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25
"Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19
"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5
"He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17
"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9
"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16
"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22
"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3
"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27
"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7
"those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14
"Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9
"She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20
"If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8
"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17
"The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15
"to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2
"With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4
"The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30
"You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4
"Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19
"The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7
"If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10
"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1
"On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34
"I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4
"(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28
"if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6
"This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3
"'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16
"Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
"He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7
"The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29
"This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7
"Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1
"Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4
"Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6
"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10
" So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/poor.htm

Quote from: pneuma on December 25, 2008, 03:03:00 PM
In every case above the word TORMENT is

928 basanizo { bas-an-id'-zo}

from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v

AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

GK - 989 { basanivzw }

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Strong's Enhanced Lexicon.

The second defenition may be right in secular use but not when describing the acts of God.
God already knows everything so He doesn't need torture to get questions answered.

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 03:44:45 PM

Willie,

you and i are on different pages when it comes to "physical, bodily" death.  I don't think that physical death has anything to do with second death or "first death" or any scriptures regarding those deaths,

other than physical things reflecting/symbolizing the spiritual. 

I agree! To me the "two" death have to do with the "two" men (in whom we are all summed up)... the first Adam and the last Adam.

And just as we have all been baptized into the death of the first Adam (as a result of sin) we have all been baptized into the death of the last Adam (through whom comes the resurrection of the dead).

It is by "dying" and "being buried" WITH CHRIST (the "second death" or the death of "the second man") that we can also know THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION (LIFE)!! Amen?

I agree with Graham! The lake of fire is a very NOW experience, for NOW is the judgment of this world.

Christ came "to send fire on the earth"!! (For we are recompensed "in the earth". Pro 11:31)

So many quote Heb 9:27 out of context, claiming that this passage says that men are not judged until after they die (meaning after they PHYSICALLY die) but is that what the passage says? Whose death is that passage speaking about? Men, in general? Or the death of Jesus Christ ("the second man") specifically?

Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ came ONCE (in the end of the world) TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT!

We are judged BY THE CROSS OF CHRIST!!

It is not until we are baptized into HIS death that we can know the power of HIS resurrection. Amen?

As I see this applies both before and after the cross, as Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But that which is spiritual had to be made manifest in the physical and so it was made manifest "in the end of the world".... though Abraham, not having received the promise (Christ in the flesh) died IN FAITH having seen His day from afar off. (God is the God OF THE LIVING, not the dead!! And He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!)

As I see it, we all have our "part" in the lake of fire; but if we walk with Him through the fire we shall not be hurt. (Ref: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were cast into the fire BOUND but were, afterward, seen walking LOOSE with one like unto the son of God... the fourth man in the fire... the resurrection and the life... the one by/through whom we overcome sin/death and become children of the resurrection... passing from death to life).

Just one understanding among many, though, I know.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: CHB on December 24, 2008, 03:06:54 AM

If you look at the above quote it would seem that the first death is in Adam, the second death is to be dead in Christ. You know..first Adam, second Adam...two deaths...dead in both Adams. I hope this makes sense.  :grin:

(2Cor.5:14) "if one died for all then were all dead".  (Rev. 14:13 "BLESSED are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".

Perfect sense!!!  :thumbsup:

Should have read onto the next page before posting.  :mblush: (trying to make my way through the thread - only on page 2 so far.  :msealed: )

OK, up to pg 3 now and see that I have already posted to this thread.  :grin:

 :cloud9: So??? Don't let a little thing like that stop you!  :happygrin:  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 28, 2009, 01:34:31 AM
:cloud9: So??? Don't let a little thing like that stop you!  :happygrin:  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Amen :icon_flower:

 :bigGrin:

Just gonna try and read through first, so I don't end up just repeating myself or what others have already said.  :mblush:

Love this topic though.  :happygrin: